From unknown Thu Aug 14 18:36:32 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#24197 <24197@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#24197 <24197@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Removing lisp/play from standard Emacs package Reply-To: bug#24197 <24197@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 01:36:32 +0000 retitle 24197 Removing lisp/play from standard Emacs package reassign 24197 emacs submitter 24197 Otso Rajala severity 24197 wishlist tag 24197 wontfix thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 10 11:43:20 2016 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Aug 2016 15:43:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52459 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXVf5-0001C9-Vg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 11:43:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:56393) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXVb0-00012M-Bm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 11:39:06 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXTnI-0003u0-CJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:43:41 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:57341) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXTnI-0003tR-9S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:43:40 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47392) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXTnF-0000lS-UO for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:43:39 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXTnE-0003sg-4I for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:43:36 -0400 Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]:36612) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXTnD-0003sN-W3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 09:43:36 -0400 Received: by mail-qk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id l2so43403223qkf.3 for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 06:43:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=nsQHY5zcIOM8V1RDpyX4lVS5d0K33GKnJo5lae+h6nk=; b=AVah/YgxncVYGjAOSb7cooczoROOUt68vQHuG51aKEZPWWC2N9cIidcP+myi86PWis T1bj77cZRERLBAL/iuANxYGdZDfceiFZuEYt1SGOg6S4SiYNhc63kCguvN6eBIuRu58X 86hzv2/o/1GwtosgsD72WlJoa8ekWhdkCLgyewFsklDpl+5lAeXCGiDrfQ9MrU1Xfeai VcUidnns+g+ZpiJLeRgUu2c5/YhcFteRb0ewqa1qCO9sYpy5HmJkv0MfZU1Ka9JORPYc nuUfX/bMDW2mw+FngvPD3jtPUTfA3DdGtZQmGFerOZ2GYqJguALUdkgKC+7ySXjfh2ED 5Iiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=nsQHY5zcIOM8V1RDpyX4lVS5d0K33GKnJo5lae+h6nk=; b=G08x9gJ4uBtjXMlNgyUj+wFJZCIzDOqBQoHgww21t5opdRLH7/lwp71qPlTWOFnUT2 Xweb7Kt7BPBDx+hNTBGuHucqheI7TB4tvLWOzwYBxgpwICX1TvS5PjKISXbyZdptr4AD LgCKB8gFq6ElH3rxgNQZoKGtpWlMJOFUMYQfrrjVfnmWJry4xvcxA1INK9J9/1qlcyoU 6ovkwV9QD6WuZDpibZzHLsWxR6OUmJ/tPem8oOyJ9rRzCqqgF/ytxKUFz73BmokaslmF aLRMe0yXXvXHlsbGAlngW7s72D99A+SLULrYPxrnHjOWuDoF8XL9xsJ01BdVsqiU+rxo jnZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AEkoouvkn9+IqdjGSpcwSYirxqx0nc7U3wdFc28hX6qTPFuza1gJ+lSXCMn0lobNU0FzWOdHvgxIQkm4XZMCDQ== X-Received: by 10.46.1.163 with SMTP id f35mr691240lji.52.1470836614298; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 06:43:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.145.211 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 06:43:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Otso Rajala Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:43:13 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Removing lisp/play from standard Emacs package To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 11:43:19 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) Emacs is primarily used as a text editor. Toys shipped in lisp/play directory are fun, no question about that. Do they belong into core disribution of Emacs is another question. Problems: 1) They increase package size. 2) Their existence clutters M-x autocomplete lists: example M-x bu has all things buffer, but also shows bubbles and butterfly, hardly useful during editing process. 3) Tools > Games is a bit confusing: games are not tools by definition. 4) Help > Psychotherapist is toy in documentation menu. Solution: 1) Make these toys in lisp/play optionally available from elpa.gnu.org/packages, but do not ship them by default within Emacs. Advantage of solution: 1) All problems go away 2) Simple lisp game sources now easily accessible right from common browser for fun & inspiration without having to download 56M tar.gz editor with them. 3) Fair towards other toys, considering sokoban and wpuzzle are there but don't ship by default. - Otso From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 10 12:07:38 2016 Received: (at 24197) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Aug 2016 16:07:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52486 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXW2c-0003Rw-Ba for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:07:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35759) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXW2a-0003Rk-Vh for 24197@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:07:37 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXW2S-0002Gv-8h for 24197@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:07:31 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:42558) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXW2S-0002Ga-5O; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:07:28 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4108 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bXW2Q-0003fw-87; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:07:26 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:07:12 +0300 Message-Id: <83ziokfw0f.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Otso Rajala In-reply-to: (message from Otso Rajala on Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:43:13 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#24197: Removing lisp/play from standard Emacs package References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24197 Cc: 24197@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) > From: Otso Rajala > Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:43:13 +0300 > > Solution: > 1) Make these toys in lisp/play optionally available from > elpa.gnu.org/packages, but do not ship them by default within > Emacs. > > Advantage of solution: > 1) All problems go away > 2) Simple lisp game sources now easily accessible right from common browser > for fun & inspiration without having to download 56M tar.gz editor with them. > 3) Fair towards other toys, considering sokoban and wpuzzle are there but don't > ship by default. Disadvantage: you lose me as Emacs developer, because Emacs without Tetris and Psychotherapist is not worth its bits for me. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 10 13:06:13 2016 Received: (at 24197) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Aug 2016 17:06:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52543 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXWxJ-0004r2-7e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 13:06:13 -0400 Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([195.110.48.8]:59090) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXWxH-0004qu-LH for 24197@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 13:06:12 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12429E6031; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:06:09 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1BOkR20OjFLS; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:06:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (static-dwadziewiec-jedenpiec7.echostar.pl [109.232.29.157]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 766CFE6029; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:06:06 +0200 (CEST) References: User-agent: mu4e 0.9.16; emacs 25.1.50.6 From: Marcin Borkowski To: Otso Rajala Subject: Re: bug#24197: Removing lisp/play from standard Emacs package In-reply-to: Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:06:12 +0200 Message-ID: <87fuqcsge3.fsf@mbork.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24197 Cc: 24197@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 2016-08-10, at 15:43, Otso Rajala wrote: > Emacs is primarily used as a text editor. Toys shipped in lisp/play directory > are fun, no question about that. Do they belong into core disribution of Emacs > is another question. > > Problems: > 1) They increase package size. > 2) Their existence clutters M-x autocomplete lists: example M-x bu > has all things buffer, but also shows bubbles and butterfly, hardly useful > during editing process. How am I supposed to do any serious coding without M-x butterfly??? > 3) Tools > Games is a bit confusing: games are not tools by definition. Games are tools for solving problems with the developer's mood. > 4) Help > Psychotherapist is toy in documentation menu. That is clearly a mistake - psychotherapy is Serious Business. > Advantage of solution: > 1) All problems go away This can also be accomplished with M-x doctor. No need to tamper with Emacs distro. > 2) Simple lisp game sources now easily accessible right from common browser > for fun & inspiration without having to download 56M tar.gz editor with them. But in order to have a browser (eww), I have to download the editor anyway. > 3) Fair towards other toys, considering sokoban and wpuzzle are there but don't > ship by default. Ah, I've got you here! How much did the authors of sokoban and wpuzzle pay you? ;-) > - Otso SNCR, -- Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science Adam Mickiewicz University From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 10 14:39:31 2016 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Aug 2016 18:39:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52591 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXYPb-0007Bc-LH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:39:31 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:39223) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXYPa-0007BG-PC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:39:30 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXYPU-0000nN-Ne for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:39:25 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:56058) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXYPU-0000nJ-Kb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:39:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58418) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXYPT-0006r8-Jb for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:39:24 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXYPO-0000ka-Le for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:39:22 -0400 Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.135]:51448) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXYPO-0000kK-Af for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:39:18 -0400 Received: from [18.26.2.123] ([18.26.2.123]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue005) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M9cAV-1bMnqV48wZ-00D00r for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:39:17 +0200 Subject: Re: bug#24197: Removing lisp/play from standard Emacs package To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=c3=a9ment_Pit--Claudel?= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 14:39:09 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RpnnTwEgmGD4rc3ANVL78svo8G54wDM1G" X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:jPLRek76tS/NjGe4RvxaNaq2VvfPhxD8t8+C40T3QmQZ8UlYmtv b+ETQJLk3/2cw1xdJS2kVupKNKWW1uQ6scaYkB8mMJjLrT6wEZDnemnHZO3CxeeAscnJ9CN f9ZZilJ/cE2pvKmmtFeAzBoNmZ/EfNfvbb4nFLbiXxFjtV+GMh0wsC0d8f53/tudT8e/92U EUy1lxTjJWwVW0LZFV/rw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:716JX8jnpAk=:MjpRigWmOr90/xqSxVksc/ 3TROe65LfN8ihGThKaCm5jVxehq7qZP408cTj0LedwBaGJPQxSkqWQ7LIEs0BL3wvj/SEBf64 f9qx08TOlaHMmkzuuRY3wuIDIz1fwzmJ9ltUVAmQc72VQIR2ZJwB0i+8wph3NXdgIDBa/b9oK HNaVL9albR0M4VuCSwSAYoEQ3UL+Jkz+U6lx0O5mhItYy0R7IDLJL4TgIk1hEoNOJ0tTkDzf6 Ye8LN9l2DjpnQqXiu+Qm4bP1NRk6oFXGlGKv8KBQI3mLpgtCOpksfwPWYmwYw/MSR+wyPHTFF 7u9Q+cczDE9JSEOrhAg0I8mr2QTlzEDuX/fQWxBvs8yWO+FyPp5BSvdxOGpSoTlC5J34Vrw6i q48iAMxN9llQE0SqYroZ8sNrtBz9U/o+kiEVZg/+hOh1lUwRMcBlkwSWreczaf8z2RbCjm/Gl OTCb8CWYdgmynYqTYLZocSiBPgjoeKkWPBdCGb4zF2kJTHiz4EDehtmxBHepv5Uo9JK3gArA6 EdiuPM4WBrpRH6xmk1Qs+LzkwjykkxWKWAedwgDLRXxkLW9Znsq5OKYVBVGkYcjmYbRaG2Cxr CY09+CX3NfDtbT0nv6CvTI0f4P28R9z0LPq8IHJy0AxZ28UN+VaXlWCfFdRnxPFdXtK33aeMe teE+96inWtz/zfzeUU4u4Qzjzpu+tfeXyo0zwWhOtJxlu8duFd5JGAYJRPiVHarcjmO0= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --RpnnTwEgmGD4rc3ANVL78svo8G54wDM1G Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="hcog5AB2ippK4tAEC4Bkq0KB1DAopudvf" From: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=c3=a9ment_Pit--Claudel?= To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#24197: Removing lisp/play from standard Emacs package References: In-Reply-To: --hcog5AB2ippK4tAEC4Bkq0KB1DAopudvf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2016-08-10 09:43, Otso Rajala wrote: > 3) Fair towards other toys, considering sokoban and wpuzzle are there b= ut don't > ship by default. I agree. Let's ship these too by default. Are they in ELPA? :) --hcog5AB2ippK4tAEC4Bkq0KB1DAopudvf-- --RpnnTwEgmGD4rc3ANVL78svo8G54wDM1G Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXq3TNAAoJEPqg+cTm90wj4HkQAJBWY5YuQFvg14uTqt4hn5l2 hRra8X7cmnVj99QTjA9QapMn5xJjAtS+qnkeDW8MfgHDKalRXHJ+K3vzYVUAlhHP e7yCsJgnc3AvXw8bVJmIhrafsCjadQ85jPURy+4VuaMyf/EPmNiwpOeuSu4XUiv6 mMLVneIVXqTB6Ur094+xN3VoXvTN2R1Q6/WSubQG0dd8GDGTRw+zsqT34XxoxihN rgXyfMym1DTQYKG4/ePmEn5RkQS/VplqYVNkQIZQ+cOmqHjdVbt+6YYc2nMZjP5s VZoy4mx+bb1y3trSssbyDCvwgv1ZFQk1EnjIbActnf+2ZDES+2eMzDKGbQ7YP72i 7GV6GeAXFvo+erUnf7doswUBL2NBy8ZZWICRldKTR/i5hh0a82DnJfS715RAVD93 M9bfJXjHL7tnQ7PxlPO/iiOMUAiPkY3VltSA5WIetSFOK4UKAtM4I2TrHi7rAxLS WGQPUWQWroQ7PcVIUimhpkGJwupwTkMYM0PwwM3VMTvsWyyhntFKItvymdOChdkq Zb4menhhRWIDCK7ywMtWWRmBFzaq0a0Cpz0v/ERR50/DOlVWIey+e6z4JnJb9qq6 CjZr+r77PFUuGG07qc/Fsw6IrjE91eyxaAVOOcGNO25EH52T0N72WVVLsO2orul+ ZoPNiADTIswGa474u3UB =jE2V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RpnnTwEgmGD4rc3ANVL78svo8G54wDM1G-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 10 16:31:05 2016 Received: (at 24197) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Aug 2016 20:31:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52629 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXa9Y-0003Fz-Vd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:31:05 -0400 Received: from fely.am-1.org ([78.47.74.50]:37927) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXa9W-0003Fp-EF for 24197@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:31:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:Cc:To:From; bh=hUUMn3NvWE6m6TTNuyqq34orUVAMb4TBNHI6mGGAoIo=; b=Y6EuJr7r4RFrHBFWc75ozLsKvYfURgdSTD7rFaIBn2QXMMRH6ClGY8JAn6t4FcevpUDkEf42K0+kbPMYUMuk1MIGgW9jEhLQbuYNzOO9mFCvu3ZEZZcOBcIwKQm0eUVBvmz0dfXSjCNv//uwkbfZgYLb0lImv5cr+qOgbe4MOvw=; Received: from violet.siamics.net ([2001:470:1f13:1eb::1:1d]) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXa9V-0005z0-2a; Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:31:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1bXa9O-0007Hb-C3; Thu, 11 Aug 2016 03:30:54 +0700 From: Ivan Shmakov To: 24197@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#24197: Removing lisp/play from standard Emacs package References: Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 20:30:53 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Otso Rajala's message of "Wed, 10 Aug 2016 16:43:13 +0300") Message-ID: <87shuctlhe.fsf@violet.siamics.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24197 Cc: Otso Rajala X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) >>>>> Otso Rajala writes: > Emacs is primarily used as a text editor. Toys shipped in lisp/play > directory are fun, no question about that. Do they belong into core > disribution of Emacs is another question. > Problems: 1) They increase package size. For less than 1=C2=A0MiB (uncompressed.) Compare to, say, lisp/org and lisp/cedet (which together take about 10% of lisp/) =E2=80=93 and those aren=E2=80=99t used by every Emacs user out there, either. > 2) Their existence clutters M-x autocomplete lists: example M-x > bu has all things buffer, but also shows bubbles and butterfly, > hardly useful during editing process. Indeed. But there=E2=80=99s a simple workaround: (fset 'butterfly nil) (fset 'bubbles nil) It=E2=80=99s also possible to exclude unwanted lisp/ subdirectories from load-path; for example: (require 'cl) ; Emacs 24.5 (setq load-path (apply 'list "~/elisp" "~/elisp/hacks" ;; Exclude directories holding unwanted packages: (let ((blacklist "/\\(calc\\|cedet\\|erc\\|mh-e\\|org\\)$")) (remove-if (lambda (dir) (string-match-p blacklist dir)) load-path)))) However, while this prevents accidental (auto)loading of the packages of no interest to the specific user, this does /not/ by itself remove the respective autoloads themselves. The latter could be accomplished with the following (though this seems a tad expensive): (mapatoms (lambda (sym) (let* ((fn (symbol-function sym)) (lib (and (autoloadp fn) (cadr fn)))) (when lib (condition-case v (find-library-name lib) (error (fset sym nil))))))) [=E2=80=A6] > Advantage of solution: 1) All problems go away Old ones go. New ones come. [=E2=80=A6] --=20 FSF associate member #7257 np. Across the Stars =E2=80=94 Pra=C5=BEsk=C3= =BD Filmov=C3=BD Orchestr From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 11 01:27:28 2016 Received: (at 24197) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Aug 2016 05:27:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52877 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXiWe-0006uZ-Gm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2016 01:27:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:41811) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bXiWc-0006uM-No for 24197@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2016 01:27:27 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXiWW-0007U3-FS for 24197@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2016 01:27:21 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:52586) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bXiWU-0007Ti-HB; Thu, 11 Aug 2016 01:27:18 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bXiWS-00060i-IO; Thu, 11 Aug 2016 01:27:16 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <83ziokfw0f.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:07:12 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#24197: Removing lisp/play from standard Emacs package References: <83ziokfw0f.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 01:27:16 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24197 Cc: 24197@debbugs.gnu.org, ojrajala@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I suggest renaming the game commands to start with `play-'. That will avoid interference with completion. Aside from that, it is just a matter of adding a tiny amount to the size of the distro, and that's not enough reason to change anything. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 11 20:51:21 2016 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Aug 2016 00:51:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54538 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bY0gz-0005Sv-IT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2016 20:51:21 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42845) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bY0gy-0005Sb-2c for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2016 20:51:20 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bY0gs-0002rH-Ag for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2016 20:51:15 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:43283) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bY0gs-0002qS-7X for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2016 20:51:14 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bY0gq-00039r-SP for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 11 Aug 2016 20:51:12 -0400 Subject: control message for bug 24197 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.99.98) Message-Id: From: Glenn Morris Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 20:51:12 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) tag 24197 wontfix From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 15 19:09:25 2018 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Apr 2018 23:09:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54718 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f7qlx-0000Dy-47 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 19:09:25 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:40334) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f7qlu-0000Dq-QY for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 19:09:23 -0400 Received: from 46.67.12.60.tmi.telenormobil.no ([46.67.12.60] helo=corrigan) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f7qls-0000vV-DR for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 01:09:22 +0200 Received: from larsi by corrigan with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1f7qlm-0005yU-HV for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 01:09:14 +0200 To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #24197 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 01:09:14 +0200 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) close 24197 From unknown Thu Aug 14 18:36:32 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 11:24:09 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator