From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 17 06:31:42 2016 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Jun 2016 10:31:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43846 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bDr3u-0007yL-IJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:31:42 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:52570) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bDr3s-0007y9-NH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:31:40 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDr3m-0002wF-Jx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:31:35 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:47994) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDr3m-0002vv-HC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:31:34 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43530) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDr3k-0006i5-9u for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:31:33 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDr3g-0002vK-9e for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:31:32 -0400 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:64286) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bDr3g-0002v2-0O for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 06:31:28 -0400 Received: (qmail 2068 invoked by uid 3782); 17 Jun 2016 10:24:45 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C685D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.104.93]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 12:24:44 +0200 Received: (qmail 3471 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Jun 2016 10:25:01 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:25:00 +0000 To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: Emacs 25: Changing font-lock-maximum-decoration doesn't work. Message-ID: <20160617102500.GA3316@acm.fritz.box> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 9.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) Hello, Emacs. In GNU Emacs 25.0.94.2 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.18.7) of 2016-06-07 built on acm Repository revision: 9d5ccebeba0506f7280662630f0ee85a52c8a327 Configured using: 'configure --with-tiff=no --with-gif=no --with-gpm' Do this: 1. emacs -Q 2. M-x customize-variable font-lock-maximum-decoration o - set the level to 1 (minimum decoration) and apply the new setting. 3. C-x C-f .../src/xdisp.c 4. Note that font locking is indeed at level 1. Note, indeed, how fast scrolling works. ;-) 5. M-x customize-variable font-lock-maximum-decoration o - set the level to t (maximum decoration) and apply. 6. (In the xdisp.c window) M-x font-lock-mode, twice. 7. Note that the font locking remains at level 1. This last is surely a bug. Enabling font locking in a buffer should use the current valid setting of font-lock-maximum-decoration. Discussion: ----------- There are no instructions in the Emacs manual which tell you how to change decoration levels. It merely states on page "Font Lock Mode" that "You can customize the variable `font-lock-maximum-decoration' to alter the amount of fontification applied by Font Lock mode, for major modes that support this feature.". This doesn't then say what is to be done after doing such customization, for it to take effect. There is a non-interactive function `font-lock-refresh-defaults' which works, but this function isn't called from anywhere in Emacs. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 18 05:55:18 2016 Received: (at 23783-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jun 2016 09:55:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44803 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bECyE-0002Ft-Ez for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 05:55:18 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:44881) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bECyD-0002Ff-3e for 23783-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 05:55:17 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bECy4-00036X-EL for 23783-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 05:55:11 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:54990) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bECy4-00036G-B2; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 05:55:08 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1342 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bECy3-0000c8-4b; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 05:55:07 -0400 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 12:56:10 +0300 Message-Id: <83ziqiakhx.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20160617102500.GA3316@acm.fritz.box> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:25:00 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#23783: Emacs 25: Changing font-lock-maximum-decoration doesn't work. References: <20160617102500.GA3316@acm.fritz.box> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23783-done Cc: 23783-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) > Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:25:00 +0000 > From: Alan Mackenzie > > 1. emacs -Q > 2. M-x customize-variable font-lock-maximum-decoration > o - set the level to 1 (minimum decoration) and apply the new > setting. > 3. C-x C-f .../src/xdisp.c > 4. Note that font locking is indeed at level 1. Note, indeed, how fast > scrolling works. ;-) > 5. M-x customize-variable font-lock-maximum-decoration > o - set the level to t (maximum decoration) and apply. > 6. (In the xdisp.c window) M-x font-lock-mode, twice. > 7. Note that the font locking remains at level 1. > > This last is surely a bug. Enabling font locking in a buffer should use > the current valid setting of font-lock-maximum-decoration. It's quite clear from the code that this is the intended behavior. The comments for font-lock-set-defaults (the function and the variable) and for font-lock-refresh-defaults are especially revealing. > There are no instructions in the Emacs manual which tell you how to > change decoration levels. It merely states on page "Font Lock Mode" > that "You can customize the variable `font-lock-maximum-decoration' to > alter the amount of fontification applied by Font Lock mode, for major > modes that support this feature.". This doesn't then say what is to be > done after doing such customization, for it to take effect. > > There is a non-interactive function `font-lock-refresh-defaults' which > works, but this function isn't called from anywhere in Emacs. I have added to the Emacs manual explanation of how to make the customization of font-lock-maximum-decoration effective in a file buffer. In a nutshell, you need to either customize before visiting the file, or kill the buffer and revisit the file after the customization. I think this fixes this bug, so I'm closing it. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 18 13:18:54 2016 Received: (at 23783) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jun 2016 17:18:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45341 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bEJtW-0001Gf-5V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 13:18:54 -0400 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:46493) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bEJtU-0001GX-AR for 23783@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 13:18:52 -0400 Received: (qmail 36504 invoked by uid 3782); 18 Jun 2016 17:18:51 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C67AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.103.175]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 19:18:49 +0200 Received: (qmail 5945 invoked by uid 1000); 18 Jun 2016 17:19:03 -0000 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:19:03 +0000 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#23783: Emacs 25: Changing font-lock-maximum-decoration doesn't work. Message-ID: <20160618171903.GB5796@acm.fritz.box> References: <20160617102500.GA3316@acm.fritz.box> <83ziqiakhx.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83ziqiakhx.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23783 Cc: 23783@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) Hello, Eli. On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 12:56:10PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:25:00 +0000 > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > 1. emacs -Q > > 2. M-x customize-variable font-lock-maximum-decoration > > o - set the level to 1 (minimum decoration) and apply the new > > setting. > > 3. C-x C-f .../src/xdisp.c > > 4. Note that font locking is indeed at level 1. Note, indeed, how fast > > scrolling works. ;-) > > 5. M-x customize-variable font-lock-maximum-decoration > > o - set the level to t (maximum decoration) and apply. > > 6. (In the xdisp.c window) M-x font-lock-mode, twice. > > 7. Note that the font locking remains at level 1. > > This last is surely a bug. Enabling font locking in a buffer should use > > the current valid setting of font-lock-maximum-decoration. > It's quite clear from the code that this is the intended behavior. > The comments for font-lock-set-defaults (the function and the > variable) and for font-lock-refresh-defaults are especially revealing. I haven't read them yet, but I will. It is not user friendly to have to set an option before visiting a file. In this case, a natural use case would be to want to reduce the decoration level after finding things being too slow at the default level. > > There are no instructions in the Emacs manual which tell you how to > > change decoration levels. It merely states on page "Font Lock Mode" > > that "You can customize the variable `font-lock-maximum-decoration' to > > alter the amount of fontification applied by Font Lock mode, for major > > modes that support this feature.". This doesn't then say what is to be > > done after doing such customization, for it to take effect. > > There is a non-interactive function `font-lock-refresh-defaults' which > > works, but this function isn't called from anywhere in Emacs. > I have added to the Emacs manual explanation of how to make the > customization of font-lock-maximum-decoration effective in a file > buffer. In a nutshell, you need to either customize before visiting > the file, or kill the buffer and revisit the file after the > customization. Thanks! > I think this fixes this bug, so I'm closing it. OK. I'll think about trying to fix the code in the near future. > Thanks. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 18 13:36:39 2016 Received: (at 23783) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jun 2016 17:36:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45360 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bEKAh-0001k7-Gi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 13:36:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:56915) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bEKAg-0001jw-NP for 23783@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 13:36:38 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEKAY-0006tF-66 for 23783@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 13:36:33 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:36256) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEKAY-0006tA-3E; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 13:36:30 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1899 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bEKAW-0006GD-9e; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 13:36:28 -0400 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:37:32 +0300 Message-Id: <83pore9z4z.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20160618171903.GB5796@acm.fritz.box> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:19:03 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#23783: Emacs 25: Changing font-lock-maximum-decoration doesn't work. References: <20160617102500.GA3316@acm.fritz.box> <83ziqiakhx.fsf@gnu.org> <20160618171903.GB5796@acm.fritz.box> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23783 Cc: 23783@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:19:03 +0000 > Cc: 23783@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > I think this fixes this bug, so I'm closing it. > > OK. I'll think about trying to fix the code in the near future. I don't think we should change anything in the code, so maybe you shouldn't try. In general, I find that lately we make too frequently the mistake of messing with low-level infrastructure for some marginal improvement, and then have to invest/waste lots of time and releases to deal with the fallout of unintended consequences, broken use cases, etc. I intend to object to such changes in the future. This seems just such a case: a minor annoyance whose "fixing" runs a very real risk of breaking a lot of important functionalities. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 18 16:02:57 2016 Received: (at 23783) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jun 2016 20:02:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45460 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bEMSH-00075E-1P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 16:02:57 -0400 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:46480) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bEMSE-000753-VQ for 23783@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 16:02:56 -0400 Received: (qmail 93291 invoked by uid 3782); 18 Jun 2016 20:02:52 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C67AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.103.175]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:02:51 +0200 Received: (qmail 14419 invoked by uid 1000); 18 Jun 2016 20:03:05 -0000 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:03:05 +0000 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Minor feature fixes and enhancements [Was: bug#23783: Emacs 25: Changing font-lock-maximum-decoration doesn't work.] Message-ID: <20160618200305.GE5796@acm.fritz.box> References: <20160617102500.GA3316@acm.fritz.box> <83ziqiakhx.fsf@gnu.org> <20160618171903.GB5796@acm.fritz.box> <83pore9z4z.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83pore9z4z.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23783 Cc: 23783@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) Hello, Eli. On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 08:37:32PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:19:03 +0000 > > Cc: 23783@debbugs.gnu.org > > From: Alan Mackenzie [ .... ] > In general, I find that lately we make too frequently the mistake of > messing with low-level infrastructure for some marginal improvement, > and then have to invest/waste lots of time and releases to deal with > the fallout of unintended consequences, broken use cases, etc. I > intend to object to such changes in the future. This seems just such > a case: a minor annoyance whose "fixing" runs a very real risk of > breaking a lot of important functionalities. I'd ask you to consider things very carefully indeed before adopting such a policy. It is minor changes like these, a very great number of them, that have made Emacs as usable as it is. Sometime, fire up Emacs-21, and compare with a modern Emacs just how usable it isn't. Perhaps even more dramatic, fire up XEmacs. I predict you would find it irritating, and the things that would irritate you would be just the lack of the little improvements that you are proposing now to object to. For example, in XEmacs, the C-x 4 bindings split the screen with the windows above eachother, which is suboptimal on a modern wide screen. Yes, it's nothing earth-shatteringly bad, it's just not quite right. If you do a batch-byte-compile, the error and warning messages are partially drowned out by low-content messages about "compiling foo.el" and "Writing foo.elc". Again, nothing you can't get around, but Emacs doesn't do that any more. These are just two of the many, many, marginal improvements Emacs has made in the last decade or so. I don't think we should stop making these small improvements. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 18 17:21:45 2016 Received: (at 23783) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jun 2016 21:21:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45468 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bENgX-0000Qt-H1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:21:45 -0400 Received: from mail-pa0-f54.google.com ([209.85.220.54]:36281) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bENgU-0000Qc-1W for 23783@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:21:44 -0400 Received: by mail-pa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id wo6so2228047pac.3 for <23783@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:21:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=NSmIMWhEpILIvYvbmZApe6oFCDEvfVFEjPuzJHKwM58=; b=eUg/5U7GgXZMLTHtrmz/3hczuB+kdLrZfvXAhls7HA+d2rKpZcf5csb/UskJI9gfIo afSLTBIsPd5qkbSisWciYwRkayMEcs/CE2dPBk9eAKA5t63GWXC7rqphk6/ayYMtFgQE /cMNzsfcq9sNk4lh1g1hw+5TmchbjacH/FQJ7mEGBKZVJT5R6zSz8gfBvJpTnq/u/Jkg DjjHEG1A+FILFB1Rbva689Sp0hQgtXkYBXJHhMe5T1/0GYN/2zkMHF0JJicpXfSCOjwn LAQ4PDIeFTLs8OZ3F/QY9hIjbme7UsTUlZVK8wV6/LpyWTbvkx7hcmwT3NDsbG8C0y5l 5xig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=NSmIMWhEpILIvYvbmZApe6oFCDEvfVFEjPuzJHKwM58=; b=ODcc9NByM4QzkzG71HJQzbacfulASqaZx95AUTEkwrIKoLidDrWEefL0yZ19/RTfzc hi2+m9MqiP+1ps9tkInXtxrx6taxOnFN2pnNmsBbP2f54SSqICrh5NRm5AjejxZf94fx g1utQanNTBwsM8Ly8vQN91Q1RH8k8S7mnVNqPb/okWLclvj4G3SxtHcURdrOHtBM5nB1 nLb3sTI2EnYBmFcwud+vj36B4MUj8RlI2ZPq70ovI9Ds7Am36xgvvcRM4jYfJyj0S9A5 I5dgIkEvfAcwq0PN82V92ZB3QTdP1RKF0+oZcnp4qsVywNZ2Wp0Sm1f9bZrY1KIM91OJ rKOA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tL/lXRHzmun32/uic+qjehY5u2Hq7PDDnCtGH7FXkDYx5EsHZpXTBJ3smIB3apu6A== X-Received: by 10.66.26.136 with SMTP id l8mr11027265pag.49.1466284896065; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id xn3sm77547915pab.32.2016.06.18.14.21.34 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:21:34 -0700 (PDT) From: John Wiegley X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 5D5F098B572; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:21:33 -0700 (PDT) To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#23783: Minor feature fixes and enhancements [Was: bug#23783: Emacs 25: Changing font-lock-maximum-decoration doesn't work.] In-Reply-To: <20160618200305.GE5796@acm.fritz.box> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:03:05 +0000") Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 14:21:30 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20160617102500.GA3316@acm.fritz.box> <83ziqiakhx.fsf@gnu.org> <20160618171903.GB5796@acm.fritz.box> <83pore9z4z.fsf@gnu.org> <20160618200305.GE5796@acm.fritz.box> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.95 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23783 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 23783@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Alan Mackenzie writes: >> In general, I find that lately we make too frequently the mistake of >> messing with low-level infrastructure for some marginal improvement, and >> then have to invest/waste lots of time and releases to deal with the >> fallout of unintended consequences, broken use cases, etc. I intend to >> object to such changes in the future. This seems just such a case: a min= or >> annoyance whose "fixing" runs a very real risk of breaking a lot of >> important functionalities. > I'd ask you to consider things very carefully indeed before adopting such= a > policy. It is minor changes like these, a very great number of them, that > have made Emacs as usable as it is. While I hear you, Alan, I very much agree with Eli here, and also intend to increase my objections to such changes. We've accumulated a HUGE amount of state, that to some extent is validated by the sheer number of users we hav= e. But there is no human alive who can forsee what the consequences of a core change will be, however minor -- there're just too many ramifications to consider. Thus, we should avoid such changes only to fix annoyances. They really need= to become quite vocal objections for us to be motivated to apply the fix. I th= ink too many of these "little here, little there" type changes have happened ov= er the past several years, and it has not been good for the stability of our foundation. One imagines a bowl of spaghetti. Also, too often these little fixes are hacks meant to be harmless band-aids, that only postpone the discussion of how we should really fix the problem, which in some cases could mean rethinking our design. =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJXZbtaAAoJEMFE2PTxn+YwPLQL/i2YLJ8x6NSozZMOUJatHM3N y9dnIyDDLHOUpQ9sQm3m4CkZGJRYXlzUEAZ8lW3AtDo17t2hiAVeVIoiaNG9PLuW lnvye1fOfpYJLYUBSnyviIgeoOInwSOvplfIUK1OgqM1Nx1/uLiHpiNmB37RHm+w QtVMjUv2vc5ChO/qOy9lsYjxVmawvgeVVva9WfBhwz4NCAjVVndKoS7TbL+FxHvg AT17ogqs2DZP4GTwBGvYmLHWd/48bI5LaYngjAiOmceKdw3hXPsW8sEttlgEgTTj sCeayChIFmFG1lAM1jIxbtIgSKLrzjX7fP9Lr1+SMLqpL/Lg2Rx1yv1kVuOR/L+N UyHECL6NOSgccXkEmplNxC2zetNdvXdyPG/wzriCtz3YNMv+pK8ATQTrX4Q0VK7v jpOcn/tBx4yJWdrnsItOyxNe4IdItV+UYta3cdhoAkPf/mISUT5sze06Ncf7vHhU Mf/m5AJOX3IMNlFkHxVpzaQmPr/gwFIuIuXWB1aq/Q== =v/H8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 18 22:33:56 2016 Received: (at 23783) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jun 2016 02:33:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45527 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bESYe-0007ih-KG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:33:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:52121) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bESYc-0007iU-Lz for 23783@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:33:55 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bESYU-0008K7-Co for 23783@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:33:49 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:44593) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bESYU-0008K0-AE; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:33:46 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2230 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bESYT-0000vo-GT; Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:33:45 -0400 Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 05:34:51 +0300 Message-Id: <838ty1aotw.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20160618200305.GE5796@acm.fritz.box> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:03:05 +0000) Subject: Re: Minor feature fixes and enhancements [Was: bug#23783: Emacs 25: Changing font-lock-maximum-decoration doesn't work.] References: <20160617102500.GA3316@acm.fritz.box> <83ziqiakhx.fsf@gnu.org> <20160618171903.GB5796@acm.fritz.box> <83pore9z4z.fsf@gnu.org> <20160618200305.GE5796@acm.fritz.box> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23783 Cc: 23783@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.4 (------) > Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:03:05 +0000 > Cc: 23783@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > In general, I find that lately we make too frequently the mistake of > > messing with low-level infrastructure for some marginal improvement, > > and then have to invest/waste lots of time and releases to deal with > > the fallout of unintended consequences, broken use cases, etc. I > > intend to object to such changes in the future. This seems just such > > a case: a minor annoyance whose "fixing" runs a very real risk of > > breaking a lot of important functionalities. > > I'd ask you to consider things very carefully indeed before adopting > such a policy. I did. > I don't think we should stop making these small improvements. This is not about small improvements per se. This is about minor improvements that are implemented by non-trivial changes in basic functionality. I think we've had enough incidents of this kind to be able to draw conclusions for future development. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:43:04 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 11:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator