From unknown Thu Jun 19 14:04:53 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#23426 <23426@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#23426 <23426@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline Reply-To: bug#23426 <23426@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 21:04:53 +0000 retitle 23426 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline reassign 23426 emacs submitter 23426 Heinz Rommerskirchen severity 23426 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 02 13:18:16 2016 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2016 17:18:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34118 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axHU8-0001H2-IU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:18:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35276) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axHU6-0001Gp-Hj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:18:14 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axHTr-0002zK-MF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:18:06 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:58854) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axHTr-0002yk-Iw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:17:59 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54437) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axHTf-000394-JY for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:17:54 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axHTR-0002uh-CU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:17:40 -0400 Received: from smtprelay05.ispgateway.de ([80.67.31.93]:39047) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axHTR-0002rj-1x for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:17:33 -0400 Received: from [92.225.224.219] (helo=[192.168.1.241]) by smtprelay05.ispgateway.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1axHTH-0005cT-3N for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 19:17:23 +0200 To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Heinz Rommerskirchen Subject: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline Message-ID: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 19:17:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Df-Sender: aGVpbnpAaC1yb21tZXJza2lyY2hlbi5kZQ== X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) dired-do-find-regexp can't find matches for a regexp containing newline. To trigger the bug: - start "emacs -Q" - open "/usr/local/share/emacs/25.0.93/etc/" in dired - mark the file NEWS and maybe a few more - type "A C-q C-j C-q C-j" - there is a message in the echo area: "No matches for: " In former versions of Emacs (e.g. 24.5.1) this same recipe brought you to the first empty line in one of the marked files. In GNU Emacs 25.0.93.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.16.7, cairo version 1.14.2) of 2016-04-28 built on canna Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11702000 System Description: openSUSE Leap 42.1 (x86_64) Configured using: 'configure --with-cairo --with-modules --with-xwidgets' Configured features: XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG CAIRO IMAGEMAGICK SOUND GPM DBUS GCONF GSETTINGS NOTIFY GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE M17N_FLT LIBOTF XFT ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 MODULES XWIDGETS Important settings: value of $LC_COLLATE: C value of $LC_NUMERIC: C value of $LANG: de_DE.UTF-8 value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=local locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix Major mode: Dired by name Minor modes in effect: tooltip-mode: t global-eldoc-mode: t electric-indent-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t menu-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t blink-cursor-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t buffer-read-only: t line-number-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t Recent messages: For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a. user-error: No matches for: [2 times] Note: file is write protected is undefined user-error: No matches for: Load-path shadows: None found. Features: (shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message format-spec rfc822 mml mml-sec password-cache epg epg-config gnus-util mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util help-fns mail-prsvr mail-utils find-dired semantic/fw mode-local find-func xref cl-seq project eieio byte-opt bytecomp byte-compile cconv eieio-core cl-macs gv cl-extra help-mode easymenu grep compile comint ansi-color ring dired-aux cl-loaddefs pcase cl-lib dired time-date mule-util tooltip eldoc electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list newcomment elisp-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese charscript case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev minibuffer cl-preloaded nadvice loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote dbusbind inotify dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting xwidget-internal cairo move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty make-network-process emacs) Memory information: ((conses 16 110376 4867) (symbols 48 21765 0) (miscs 40 70 143) (strings 32 20598 4326) (string-bytes 1 649249) (vectors 16 14946) (vector-slots 8 464287 4193) (floats 8 225 154) (intervals 56 513 0) (buffers 976 14) (heap 1024 42366 1243)) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 02 13:42:05 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2016 17:42:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34127 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axHrB-0001pU-85 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:42:05 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:43892) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axHr9-0001ox-Fp for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:42:03 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u42HftsF028718 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 May 2016 17:41:56 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u42Hft5n005474 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 May 2016 17:41:55 GMT Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u42Hfn0K003599; Mon, 2 May 2016 17:41:50 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:41:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Heinz Rommerskirchen , 23426@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> In-Reply-To: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > dired-do-find-regexp ... >=20 > In former versions of Emacs (e.g. 24.5.1) this same recipe brought you > to the first empty line in one of the marked files. AFAICT, there is no dired-do-find-regexp in 24.5.1. It was introduced later. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 02 13:45:36 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2016 17:45:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34131 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axHua-0001uf-NJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:45:36 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:45872) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axHuZ-0001uR-3B for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:45:35 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u42HjToB000791 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 May 2016 17:45:29 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u42HjTWg023473 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 May 2016 17:45:29 GMT Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u42HjSVA014657; Mon, 2 May 2016 17:45:28 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:45:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Heinz Rommerskirchen , 23426@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > dired-do-find-regexp ... > > > > In former versions of Emacs (e.g. 24.5.1) this same recipe brought you > > to the first empty line in one of the marked files. >=20 > AFAICT, there is no dired-do-find-regexp in 24.5.1. > It was introduced later. Sorry, I see that you referred to the same recipe, which uses `A', which was `dired-do-search'. (And why was the command changed?) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 02 14:23:19 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2016 18:23:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34163 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axIV5-0002sH-7p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 14:23:19 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f48.google.com ([74.125.82.48]:35540) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axIV3-0002s3-EG for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 14:23:17 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f48.google.com with SMTP id e201so117554811wme.0 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 02 May 2016 11:23:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=B1RH95XE6RCDzRUTMXQFyFUpCLp5RKrFl8qA1IJS5RI=; b=CxemEhrtzoBTynNjUAcIdddu4tgPBwwKMzDa1TYnj2lf2FbCkA4ygE+cl8cKNiPwMM UqiCkgVGVdi72Gyt5j/F3ATOUKL1pWB29prOTvMDNbGHv/iu2AZtPrW3BF0aVyktkBUQ dHSt5DeLkoyy/DJfFt6t7KnNNrXlXajCbNjdKoMBCrNbNnr5dReRbUU/EPZz7t3cyLws xXCpZf31db/GoKVb476djDr6LwIU+zbDzpgzzPXnxeadkHCpd0OvsTyOnrK9Lca+K8K/ OGTU5nPTZemOY6Ia0WugbhWULi2dyibbalXvXe7aN5h3StZKyyCPP2ZNBCRj1mcdDN99 xz4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=B1RH95XE6RCDzRUTMXQFyFUpCLp5RKrFl8qA1IJS5RI=; b=balLZklKsS62a9YUOsU0o6OGq96Kqo5sn1MjCBZ1jPi5oKDv93YbVjIruPjsnBntb8 EcDAWCsgOif49jjlf8QkHA5tfbuqMryKn3/L2jAi3ObqQKxeN9DK4oN7igWURU+KO6lf f+baHxbSgerF0ifD8ClmPFgojwhw+SCtAznvaKchVncHmQ4LuLL9XTQKD/bjZlXjSmCn nySKo6p800SuXXeePRQrlYmUCk97iV5nu3jgR1zY39FMDq90zxjtLYRjOFzmDmJ3wHS9 s6g8xwJkYmLeaEX53Yv4Ew6BDd53XARdkJwQJGCzMKx6ZT6Nb+f6ke6s55lADulV9e2n 3lcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXnkgpL8+HGyq8VVln94Nul4H6GBYqWtDMd0hddtYYcHpjU12LnGHv9sknYMvDrWQ== X-Received: by 10.28.169.11 with SMTP id s11mr21339318wme.62.1462213391874; Mon, 02 May 2016 11:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([185.105.175.24]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id s6sm31750009wjy.31.2016.05.02.11.23.10 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 02 May 2016 11:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Heinz Rommerskirchen , 23426@debbugs.gnu.org References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 21:23:09 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 05/02/2016 08:17 PM, Heinz Rommerskirchen wrote: > dired-do-find-regexp can't find matches for a regexp containing newline. > To trigger the bug: > - start "emacs -Q" > - open "/usr/local/share/emacs/25.0.93/etc/" in dired > - mark the file NEWS and maybe a few more > - type "A C-q C-j C-q C-j" > - there is a message in the echo area: "No matches for: > > " > In former versions of Emacs (e.g. 24.5.1) this same recipe brought you > to the first empty line in one of the marked files. I don't know if it's possible to search for "A^J^J" using find+grep, and it's the implementation choice for this function. On the one hand, it limits the variety of the regexp you can use. On the other hand, you can get results faster, and you can search inside directories (dired-do-search only searches within regular files and silently skips any marked directories). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 02 21:19:27 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 01:19:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34389 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axOzm-0000hq-Rj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 21:19:27 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35442) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axOzl-0000he-Sf for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 21:19:26 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axOzX-0003ER-JI for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 21:19:17 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,RP_MATCHES_RCVD, UNRESOLVED_TEMPLATE autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:41509) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axOzA-00038O-UG; Mon, 02 May 2016 21:18:48 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axOz4-0002Jq-Sv; Mon, 02 May 2016 21:18:42 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: Dmitry Gutov Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> X-Spook: ARPA terrorist Gunfight M-14 IMF csystems AFSPC Taiwan X-Ran: uXG)2MZPURX)!Af<{Uwy@Gz)'&Meq[cDi;4]4?Pn2hejl)9YxS((1T)p%XQhVI_Z8[9KpP X-Hue: black X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Mon, 02 May 2016 21:18:42 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Mon, 2 May 2016 21:23:09 +0300") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.3 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, Heinz Rommerskirchen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.3 (-----) Dmitry Gutov wrote: >> - type "A C-q C-j C-q C-j" [...] >> In former versions of Emacs (e.g. 24.5.1) this same recipe brought you >> to the first empty line in one of the marked files. > > I don't know if it's possible to search for "A^J^J" using find+grep, > and it's the implementation choice for this function. (The fact that it uses grep should perhaps be documented, since it affects what one can search for.) For this specific example, a grep-ish way to find empty lines is '^$'. However, using "A" to search for that (or the empty regexp) causes Emacs to hang indefinitely. :( From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 12:18:37 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 16:18:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35532 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axd1w-0008Mf-RP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:18:37 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:48174) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axd1v-0008MT-Kc for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:18:35 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axd1h-00042w-4k for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:18:27 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:54955) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axd1U-0003xe-TZ; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:18:08 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4579 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axd1N-0000RK-3w; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:18:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 19:18:06 +0300 Message-Id: <837ffbktdt.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Glenn Morris In-reply-to: (message from Glenn Morris on Mon, 02 May 2016 21:18:42 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > From: Glenn Morris > Date: Mon, 02 May 2016 21:18:42 -0400 > Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, Heinz Rommerskirchen > > Dmitry Gutov wrote: > > >> - type "A C-q C-j C-q C-j" > [...] > >> In former versions of Emacs (e.g. 24.5.1) this same recipe brought you > >> to the first empty line in one of the marked files. > > > > I don't know if it's possible to search for "A^J^J" using find+grep, > > and it's the implementation choice for this function. > > (The fact that it uses grep should perhaps be documented, since it > affects what one can search for.) I added that to the doc string. I'm much less inclined to state this ion the manual, as this seems to be a subtle implementation detail, and is probably subject to change. > For this specific example, a grep-ish way to find empty lines is '^$'. > However, using "A" to search for that (or the empty regexp) causes Emacs > to hang indefinitely. :( That's a bug that should be fixed, for sure. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 13:22:32 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 17:22:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35599 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axe1n-0001St-R9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 13:22:31 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f67.google.com ([74.125.82.67]:34642) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axe1m-0001Sh-Rf for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 13:22:31 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f67.google.com with SMTP id n129so4982775wmn.1 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 03 May 2016 10:22:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hxJLTjMOtPi/+VN1Rkglpgkuo+3MwA7PckTRkVywf6o=; b=q1Q2XKZuTSr/0TyN85V0KiV64nFpdp1XLXSxNLDj//dlcbgCe1qGWVYV2Z1vj5C7nA EfvGwPa30+PPOkDGYHEFSbsDlzCgET6CFm1BugYyQ8Ik/+sABdoBdeRnpDC8nZuNpDlM 3/iAZyWCiWJlRMMyL6cYq71SjQvUvF4tGJFborewn48P3Eif8G3FOhs7mZRfUVl3CKi3 v90F1JSEt5c1NRhsZZG5x9JybhvUqLbwn6QAUFyHvKFvvCkD1G2PHGT4cU17q/htnNHr UXqzw4pWUrU56E3h2l+yKbX1KXsk22qbZvOSIq6+n8GXC4gYbZyyVQohKKRXCkkYufrH tqDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hxJLTjMOtPi/+VN1Rkglpgkuo+3MwA7PckTRkVywf6o=; b=bgR+RL5w2keLg97pIMFqv52mICLaQNqyrYZI+8QNmK3oSSr6xEEEjs9UiemZTTe7Ir TpkZhAQQqYY7qWsrTugpc7yQj95TSW1zm7ZOEZmkoxfINhHylA9UO7vne/37Y6kqXAfu mQ5M4vMLT86h6/UOf8oj0mBo50rfA7DoealoOu1U/PLiG3985J56dCxSRb51uihQyMf2 PFkL7kU10Ev2JMRVwiJpGJ/Wl5P+uADnBLq+i6AwKauW8Na0aeZIl4EzNFahlvpDYWFD T0JDKV6KwOGtvYfMgiwMJJdvvBvcaYnF/m3O+/RsRbB+bs/c1qWhHJ3AKS7w6/jEtWN+ xuCg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWcveCtYqW9QMMHeRxdRlKaYcf0TMeqUKYuERiEfqOMXYvro/zHJWrneKbx4UC7tQ== X-Received: by 10.194.114.100 with SMTP id jf4mr815871wjb.55.1462296145193; Tue, 03 May 2016 10:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([185.105.175.24]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id gt7sm244398wjc.1.2016.05.03.10.22.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 03 May 2016 10:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Glenn Morris References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:22:21 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, Heinz Rommerskirchen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 05/03/2016 04:18 AM, Glenn Morris wrote: > For this specific example, a grep-ish way to find empty lines is '^$'. You can't search for an empty line following a letter 'A' this way, though. > However, using "A" to search for that (or the empty regexp) causes Emacs > to hang indefinitely. :( Yup, it's a bug in xref--collect-matches-1 (you can re-search-forward indefinitely for such a regexp, and that's what it does). I'll try not to forget about it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 15:00:49 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 19:00:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35679 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axfYv-0004Wc-Ns for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 15:00:49 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:50356) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axfYu-0004RJ-KE for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 15:00:48 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axfYg-0003kw-4C for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 15:00:40 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:57495) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axfYU-0003fA-3Y; Tue, 03 May 2016 15:00:22 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axfYN-0004A6-Mn; Tue, 03 May 2016 15:00:15 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: Dmitry Gutov Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> X-Spook: eavesdropping Terror Rumsfeld dictionary bluebird X-Ran: `lf$@[=nA!f;4Dg_$=C1thS6Y8dG5PdSz'O&g&z.%w:.JE}4h|OkYkOA&+oE{jeR-ko]X/ X-Hue: yellow X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 15:00:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Tue, 3 May 2016 20:22:21 +0300") Message-ID: <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, Heinz Rommerskirchen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) Dmitry Gutov wrote: > On 05/03/2016 04:18 AM, Glenn Morris wrote: > >> For this specific example, a grep-ish way to find empty lines is '^$'. > > You can't search for an empty line following a letter 'A' this way, though. No, but that's not what the OP's example was. (The "A" is the keybinding that triggers the search, not part of the search.) There is "grep -z" for multi-line searches, BTW, but it's a bit clunky. Also "pcregrep". From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 16:59:18 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 20:59:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35858 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axhPa-0003WQ-4D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 16:59:18 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f65.google.com ([74.125.82.65]:34630) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axhPY-0003WD-UK for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 16:59:17 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f65.google.com with SMTP id n129so5898458wmn.1 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 03 May 2016 13:59:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dCeYje6B6fws480heoK3Nph6BR5EMh/w8ugGaDFKs9U=; b=LYDMQ41lK6mg9pPeE3vzPC4SrHQ5S0aBKikG8ACqXUtwSkjT2jqWzxE3Ps1jkrcYmr 38pVyYxwBQYE+IOZE+D8RBLom+aXAaWFZWawJ+Fl6+G36JN/T39olHXpYUSSkzE7P1A0 lwxZmtl1Oj5CYV5GoBJeccjRDYMQd/VR/9g+xutAo7lQwSMiMM7TH0ZR4Rx7lsJ7tASz qY/VPD7kcD0+mMtwCSWCZHdwtNJ9VJ0Gln7w8y+TgejNgVBcHCw6yMSH0qK+Q194sSh5 TSeWA9fSPd50GL40RnW2HBGqD/xZZPL7rxfiwgZjdVTDrNlUEpdESu2eOuDLriGuCDaw jaFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dCeYje6B6fws480heoK3Nph6BR5EMh/w8ugGaDFKs9U=; b=RmRG+eZNrJKk6aAjHgfvVhNBriA7C5xZBfz+zJUnjLDiKcdDhB/PbAU/0T/pJ1u5RK k7YwBUDdf9SzB8X8TRFwknY/3QRZUdxKCw7zJCPHgoy8Tg/HoB7gvQnCmC0253jnIkTD bbh68LnmkL25zDYXuPrhwglnxmTAeL+o3jKk18OMdIPQW6xJDCpo+ZvOAfyCPTq6zI6v ITfszcxiaKFZglqSxS8rZvn6Zwa53Ee60KxEWAZfuTd/2OOGmaUKDzf34cKn2aQy/yKa +tv/U+FIPMn7yBOaVn/JShF1tQVz5yc0Mplt3Wsw7YEkzwJc6GtQ9ksN15EwQ6cssMfT aEJg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXzKnSyuAWRdAVsVb8a/HEI6XbmFvqXGWdx3d7nbpJ21egLPOMYr1vX72Zxb1VcBg== X-Received: by 10.28.0.87 with SMTP id 84mr26656330wma.68.1462309150921; Tue, 03 May 2016 13:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([185.105.175.24]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id kz1sm293026wjc.46.2016.05.03.13.59.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 03 May 2016 13:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Glenn Morris References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 23:59:08 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, Heinz Rommerskirchen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 05/03/2016 10:00 PM, Glenn Morris wrote: >> You can't search for an empty line following a letter 'A' this way, though. > > No, but that's not what the OP's example was. > (The "A" is the keybinding that triggers the search, not part of the search.) Oh. So your example is a direct equivalent. Thanks. > There is "grep -z" for multi-line searches, BTW, but it's a bit clunky. I looked at 'grep -zo', but it doesn't seem suitable for our purpose: there's no way to make it output the correct line number. So we'd have to load each file in Emacs fully and search it them through ourselves a second time. > Also "pcregrep". It looks like a better choice, but it's not installed on most systems AFAICT (it wasn't on mine), and xref doesn't really know what to do with multiline matches anyway yet (?). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 19:08:46 2016 Received: (at 23426-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 23:08:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36074 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axjQs-0001mn-8Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 19:08:46 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f50.google.com ([74.125.82.50]:36858) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axjQr-0001mZ-8s for 23426-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 19:08:45 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f50.google.com with SMTP id n129so166450578wmn.1 for <23426-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 03 May 2016 16:08:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=M0gq2xIufgtaNcyaU1mz2VYkZdRj8b6v5ck3ppuqyrI=; b=f9TL6BoOulSh56Km3eS7w9lJ3utA7Ar4yUALBdB6xwt5xzaQU7WqzbLxSG4LLwD/j6 HGUQAqEbWJdplzqqIsfefIekJm5D2PUMzodnVMElQ8iEB7hqmgp0wzDCCl6GAwTXVTvR MYsmak7fqORciznGcc90z71i/Dpk2F5iCjqduTlDHjBnAcZ0cOxFmu5FFlfLj66as5il FibfRW95QHJ8D87DCJQld0DLpgJe4YGzfDmfUpZpggi8SNyB3taR1zIf1k6VrtSGUTMD dUSfiiEaLVxTwDwf7+X+1ifgCyyrZ3uyPGE0Mw0F2iqQFpJ1X5QxpeR+sjQmKJ4L/f9+ yM9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=M0gq2xIufgtaNcyaU1mz2VYkZdRj8b6v5ck3ppuqyrI=; b=W5UlJljsFwgG2pKvcj8lGMuB+Wr+Ar8lw36XHZNdIrPtohk2zLdcpTky62nSvRoXol PSt1tSUYrwXcanyIo+yn06EVV7TwAriuV5gYfWbwoznumh29QU8p8LAYO80ZDsuI8l7U XI+W2bjq9mOtFASARCKE2XtpMUjZdMx1rDJ3nAdaNa7FwL9Yp7ajRjb2cIcoWO2XjQPT 49Fmo+xZzbyPHWe9HOP4j/iP7aEem5RgmCv4phCRGMTtpD0E/NvoWaa6ixYDx/0ARa3P +AvkrZCajSZih0bYu8MGOYHvyvltDEN8N9k2n6lID4WL72IpFe33Zf6MXYweRDGybvMk k+9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUp2G0PvNAD/8qWz8KQV28UVa+oNkqNpRhYZ081IRei6ja0e1rbxdcAQdChyGh3ww== X-Received: by 10.28.149.205 with SMTP id x196mr28871195wmd.67.1462316919486; Tue, 03 May 2016 16:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([185.105.175.24]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id jr8sm803288wjb.15.2016.05.03.16.08.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 03 May 2016 16:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Eli Zaretskii , Glenn Morris References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <837ffbktdt.fsf@gnu.org> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: <0e97c691-b726-7002-30d7-d5da074d6cac@yandex.ru> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 02:08:36 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <837ffbktdt.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426-done Cc: 23426-done@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Version: 25.1 On 05/03/2016 07:18 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> (The fact that it uses grep should perhaps be documented, since it >> affects what one can search for.) > > I added that to the doc string. I'm much less inclined to state this > ion the manual, as this seems to be a subtle implementation detail, > and is probably subject to change. Right, and it's not easy to describe, because for now we support only constructs that Grep understands but require the user to escape the terms the way Emacs requires, not Grep (so the result is somewhere between BRE and ERE). Hopefully, we'll allow more Emacs-specific terms in the future (by stripping them out before giving the regexp to Grep, and then verifying the matches in Emacs with the correct regexp). >> For this specific example, a grep-ish way to find empty lines is '^$'. >> However, using "A" to search for that (or the empty regexp) causes Emacs >> to hang indefinitely. :( > > That's a bug that should be fixed, for sure. Fixed in 4d8fd9c. Closing. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 22:05:55 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 02:05:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36176 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axmCJ-0006Px-9a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 22:05:55 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:30736) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axmCH-0006Pi-Jb for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 22:05:54 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u4425kbV022130 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 02:05:46 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u4425jZc015340 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 02:05:45 GMT Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u4425hZX020161; Wed, 4 May 2016 02:05:44 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <85ff912d-1457-487d-80b2-412389876172@default> Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 19:05:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Dmitry Gutov , Glenn Morris Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> In-Reply-To: <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, Heinz Rommerskirchen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Do I understand correctly (forgive me if wrong; I have not studied this, and my Emacs 25 build is quite old) that `A' in Dired is now bound by default to a command that requires a user to have an external `grep' command? (This was not the case previously.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 22:34:12 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 02:34:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36180 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axmdg-00073b-JN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 22:34:12 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f51.google.com ([74.125.82.51]:37349) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axmde-00073N-2U for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 22:34:10 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f51.google.com with SMTP id a17so69106210wme.0 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 03 May 2016 19:34:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zG4HjkO2LNCNj6LjbHBWECy+RREtL4GNnfpIZ/0wUFU=; b=IXN52K6DGhyqfZDZsQD+iodagn31jga6yAi31eVf5nR/OFTtpxYrxUqXpQGX+b/mLd No2ZjmT6FHzMWXMqUGxbWiXeeRcuZrJuOXGJb31xvpFaXLtpJecHm+p1QyywOTWr/L1f X64A7ojjJUYo2IGjvlFvJMct5kpr11FIGDYJt9Q8s7okBScgUsI79prNvs7EHGcY29nd 1HsKrfFfuC9A3aW8C43ydlOjuOuLUWug5Rt+NOEHbaICDJbmwDcMqmfdZHnNQlwPq/VB TEeY6Wpt/DQvRvPA4D+u0JKSm4ex1JGkFBHtr79n8sosWtaXMKby3f6Y8b0M5GNZWOYI oA7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zG4HjkO2LNCNj6LjbHBWECy+RREtL4GNnfpIZ/0wUFU=; b=Qf967AfdGtdK+ksf6xpuN8ApWVzNbB5Y4ErWk5RzYwri3eDh7fnEEfLjwZVh1sOj86 LnpfPxttKaLadl4MKiLx4RqgVEe5A8qRAKC9aS0CGZeQJGlVBf2+f8nTxIxh/YfEV5gY 110eRgnC4ipKVUMKyXO5u2itIP/dMsqphs+lzV9RVZN8ZzlM4aLAQQ0e/WTl6WX8ju2z OJkj1DykupiciaEA2EpUNvv67c7Z/m8WkgptrkO2vh3HedSvBLHPRqGDwb2SkZl8iHCN K7sJUfXtVf5H+xBZDRoBfoxvF296fPE24982NBBkTlBEDzWYbHDhKfvY90n6lBFdr4zg +YSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWohFvBuhIKj31LKAwOr9bUrBv/uHkOJL5nRXAar1tgwcTnGdCT1C7BIYmvN3Y7lg== X-Received: by 10.28.63.148 with SMTP id m142mr6174572wma.85.1462329244563; Tue, 03 May 2016 19:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([185.105.175.24]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id u12sm1514671wmu.12.2016.05.03.19.34.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 03 May 2016 19:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Drew Adams , Glenn Morris References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> <85ff912d-1457-487d-80b2-412389876172@default> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 05:34:02 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <85ff912d-1457-487d-80b2-412389876172@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, Heinz Rommerskirchen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 05/04/2016 05:05 AM, Drew Adams wrote: > Do I understand correctly (forgive me if wrong; I have not > studied this, and my Emacs 25 build is quite old) that `A' > in Dired is now bound by default to a command that requires > a user to have an external `grep' command? (This was not > the case previously.) Yusss. And 'find', too. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 00:24:35 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 04:24:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36228 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axoMV-0001NA-7w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 00:24:35 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:28198) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axoMT-0001Mu-2W for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 00:24:33 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u444OPZG032272 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 04:24:26 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u444OOjv003515 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 04:24:25 GMT Received: from abhmp0006.oracle.com (abhmp0006.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u444OMKN032509; Wed, 4 May 2016 04:24:23 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <812a118d-331e-4f09-aeda-483ee71b1127@default> Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 21:24:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Dmitry Gutov Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> <85ff912d-1457-487d-80b2-412389876172@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, Heinz Rommerskirchen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > Do I understand correctly (forgive me if wrong; I have not > > studied this, and my Emacs 25 build is quite old) that `A' > > in Dired is now bound by default to a command that requires > > a user to have an external `grep' command? (This was not > > the case previously.) >=20 > Yusss. And 'find', too. Ugh. Hard to believe this got accepted, replacing a perfectly good command that everyone could use (and has used, for decades) - no dependency on anything outside Emacs, worked on all platforms. This new feature should have been added as, uh, err, well, just a new feature - a new command, totally unrelated to existing `A' etc. Bad idea to usurp `A' for a command that requires a user to have `grep' and `find'. Bad Emacs. But it seems that the new trend in Emacs Dev is to willy nilly replace longstanding stuff, rather than just introducing new stuff, letting users experiment with it, and after years of experience and feedback PERHAPS change some default behavior to make better use of it by default. Should have just added this to an ELPA repository, as something optional that users might want to try out. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 01:00:42 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 05:00:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36247 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axovS-0002Ex-0O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 01:00:42 -0400 Received: from mail-ob0-f178.google.com ([209.85.214.178]:34544) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axovQ-0002Eg-PJ for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 01:00:41 -0400 Received: by mail-ob0-f178.google.com with SMTP id dm5so15405801obc.1 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 03 May 2016 22:00:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EKT4XmQuwzeW6oR3cQwDRGVjPg8yirucdWuBRnrM4y8=; b=oT/5xSKxvDgSuUSk/PoLVWSjv1GoXYQpyHr9opMTecpd7pz8EsQNu5BlJWEIuE88nC uTMi8QnyB91lUtHLTDtRcIrs5c4aItMsSl/8u4xfluhJgWOG6mYEvn3rcrEih41KxswF hPX+As9b0s6aNmPmpBu064XC5yj1+LP8SY6DYw+XxXDyt9qO2MRTMczvn1XXuFrIycOn OjSVc4BisyVOzeG/vnUe3gQ6sDVRDoEgei+2JPMDinr6S9jiHiHDOZL0KRavuU9ia9Sa 2ArhZRvdtidHVUQm5PidBL4DDlTqRIUeu/Cx10K5PasZH+rM25gw1YBRbqTfBQklAS7j VwDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EKT4XmQuwzeW6oR3cQwDRGVjPg8yirucdWuBRnrM4y8=; b=TiYVAnVm1POzy+FMBZTuLNmtG2C6nzXcKIzzsY1gHE7c49O7er7MEr5FUt2SuAQBa5 2Pc0AZQaby2cVhoHbb1Z/L2AIfgzLivxtf1HE3O7f9539cy+TNuJw65tZ2GqIMQUCETI PaqZzqR4x+deNSY9z1wj1IBzL8OVcaf3v1quM6+sHDpk5g1AyI+VMvgJvkM6/esdEZyg as9Sa0sF+9XWupXhVthaY7N4ZaB+8hgO9v0B8sXzpDhHLFIeJu0pXITqGq3hY09zFPgB 0aFvoYpH1Oqby/oX0cTxTgi+XDp06XtLFe7f8u6TE4sxgQ2rrNLfvuAFh5AsLJvbawJM VmBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXPT+GGZu4RhXnpOTuzTPvQJU4OYsalcod6D+DpBoDcIiacYvWDLfb2fSzI9zkjHaIV4ZDc5bzijVi/fQ== X-Received: by 10.60.38.225 with SMTP id j1mr1164115oek.24.1462338035238; Tue, 03 May 2016 22:00:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Kaushal Modi Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 05:00:25 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Drew Adams , Dmitry Gutov Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d08f021d0770531fd1b80 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --089e013d08f021d0770531fd1b80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Drew > > Do I understand correctly (forgive me if wrong; I have not > > studied this, and my Emacs 25 build is quite old) that `A' > > in Dired is now bound by default to a command that requires > > a user to have an external `grep' command? (This was not > > the case previously.) That's a valid point. @Dmitry So does emacs revert to the old function if grep/find is not found on the system? What happens if the system doesn't have either of those two. For example, on Windows, (executable-find "grep") returns nil and (exectuable-find "find") returns path to the Windows' find.exe, not GNU find. -- -- Kaushal Modi --089e013d08f021d0770531fd1b80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > Drew=

> > Do I understand correctly (forgive me if wr= ong; I have not
> > studied this, and my Emacs 2= 5 build is quite old) that `A'
> > in Dired is now boun= d by default to a command that requires
> > a user to have = an external `grep' command? =C2=A0(This was not
> > the= case previously.)

That's a valid point.
=

@Dmitry So does emacs revert to the old function if gre= p/find is not found on the system? What happens if the system doesn't h= ave either of those two.

For example, on Windows, = (executable-find "grep") returns nil and (exectuable-find "f= ind") returns path to the Windows' find.exe, not GNU find.
--

--
Kaushal Modi

--089e013d08f021d0770531fd1b80-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 06:32:52 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 10:32:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36369 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axu6t-0003Zc-SF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 06:32:52 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f65.google.com ([74.125.82.65]:36269) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axu6r-0003ZN-PS for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 06:32:50 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f65.google.com with SMTP id w143so9415145wmw.3 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 03:32:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GF6JrfN6hdmQB1HOk6v1ykkIzKoDnX1+eGGiIcSPaJI=; b=HS7QBBcHZGqefAc9DfuLrxn7LKZS95jOY2qu9D2zIxUnt9lPMTB/ltI0HxG3aGxBTb P7cq82OATOzbU6ooPqomqAT1eap076u3KQstQATJuwKgngRziFhJTqvcvAOFHz5lLhGH mp3hnDLrzUI2gXJicmdxZ+ed2I4LULe6hhm7cmDyU8DDmk5WTptnJBLJbMRwuSNOC3IB crAIYsTtk/iD/4cXDDyAln4QUxkW/RnOK9TLAk58j3irwdCgNrEaC+T7HByx5lgL5wP1 rNkLEz0pzkWULFv/rt6NZTQzFlj7dewGrBnPBRhx0xO9+phnGQBj34fp7jbacJCujlv2 hXEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GF6JrfN6hdmQB1HOk6v1ykkIzKoDnX1+eGGiIcSPaJI=; b=NMlcfPfqajfuxoLgvz3WnewAVzkmNAQYpLf21cev5c8xSLXxLrEYVWkKqPMu9XFJme m0g5aHaKsMDag6bbSd73/YKDGnN6OYzzAMXCR9bckFkmlu2PDwJVIgXjze/8Z2PcPZVQ eymEFtMn6aZc3chgNy3kLI5qsHnjwmbDsLwoeVVJP9XIvcThHO+mLjsMURlW0gHg2w4C C9b7FfjGpw5O2vFU0PfyNBLjd0rIb/jZY+z5ormhHe6tOPYeQcIL8lb6m+qIHAWDNEBF 4c/oyZWkrQqoaheSLz+0rxvSj81lt6+MuC+h/v7d+KBFZMZmarYJU+C93T+CdGZUAAuk A+Dw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVD0WlLWL49mBWUo9g5kdJ0oZkBlA19k5yMOxFoVU2raiLv07Hb3l10spWiGevfEA== X-Received: by 10.194.158.69 with SMTP id ws5mr7893561wjb.17.1462357964062; Wed, 04 May 2016 03:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([185.105.175.24]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id gr4sm3413381wjd.23.2016.05.04.03.32.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 04 May 2016 03:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Kaushal Modi , Drew Adams References: From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 13:32:41 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 05/04/2016 08:00 AM, Kaushal Modi wrote: > @Dmitry So does emacs revert to the old function if grep/find is not > found on the system? Not currently, no. > What happens if the system doesn't have either of > those two. You go to https://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/, and install them. Or avoid using the new features (which aren't limited to the commands bound to A and Q in Dired). Or submit a patch that adds a fallback to xref-collect-matches to open all files and parse them in Emacs. I think we'd accept it. But installing grep and find will work better anyway. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 09:32:32 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 13:32:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36532 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axwum-0001Rj-0T for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 09:32:32 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:45711) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axwuk-0001RS-ML for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 09:32:31 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u44DWMNh018345 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 13:32:23 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44DWMXV006329 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 13:32:22 GMT Received: from abhmp0006.oracle.com (abhmp0006.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44DWLiY024133; Wed, 4 May 2016 13:32:21 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 06:32:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Dmitry Gutov , Kaushal Modi Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> In-Reply-To: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) > go to https://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/, and > install them. Or avoid using the new features (which aren't limited to > the commands bound to A and Q in Dired). Users should not need to "avoid" using the default settings. The "new" is clearly not a sufficient replacement for the "old". It should have been (should be) added only as an opt-in option, not imposed as replacement. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 09:49:16 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 13:49:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36541 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axxAy-0001oo-MK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 09:49:16 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f68.google.com ([74.125.82.68]:34550) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axxAx-0001ob-3J for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 09:49:15 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f68.google.com with SMTP id n129so10403479wmn.1 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 06:49:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KrR7p8/mePKb5SHjUi3yYQqB9dC2/RSGtklLmD0kr0w=; b=qth36GVGeD3DLbIKB0oByfLyk02waMjmnfQlmMnmSt9nm2597eR6ba/9nSoMNuxXvi 37W657BFIhsuRuEK1xzI/7QkG1e7mFa0LWgCGoBrT95xarwecOG1CLRp8NlbJ42wr/Ah 6eXnd3AnYvXobYSTwy0yl3AL0rcfOvaPI/ORwqghmHS+2XTQ9F7i2mlo3PLNMMAfeZTf LgUx/CKJ3h8CCWcaMzMlatE5UKkisVI6RVOT0c8JdPbxOYZSFiqic6xfgWg2JeRLTcy2 P5QRj+RCrRSbG8DanYkde2CNnLPTImMsvRc7AiUaKkzDw0+ITySQNE2jJCpslPYce1bX g/9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KrR7p8/mePKb5SHjUi3yYQqB9dC2/RSGtklLmD0kr0w=; b=FKN9H7FKyEqqvfxsS9gk1XYjeCqBkeVgnc7ZGJs2LjjVTfsoyUhMvWG2yeSJCYiQBr 3OGINnaaquRoAduGK324mozTJz/iFRGvqpgm6/uArMrfnRoBUfqmR9t/JIzhvO+NyMpd 9p17rNYjS7Yamn2oIR98VBw39tpD9YGDaJ7SfS093z/r9Di7Oim/wPSCLlUi4WNX7E7y Sw5a4kUbOsw+tmuhIyMTsspbL6ScV2U1bV20/ixO0lQTj4y0TQ7FUCIKGxD0aKfn0F0Z B6C2aQITJ1K/Yl+WdPUpTgRALt1JryK4UkdCkXoFsnp+478kIr3DXgt6AUenVHMqVp2w cXiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWdkLWPl+jlXnX3qc5ocjl2Q/AHxT0ieWLuGhMfyii9ExQwnXaXHQ9z4V+0G9DYyw== X-Received: by 10.194.9.233 with SMTP id d9mr8839444wjb.29.1462369749468; Wed, 04 May 2016 06:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([185.105.175.24]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id r204sm5112975wmg.20.2016.05.04.06.49.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 04 May 2016 06:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Drew Adams , Kaushal Modi References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: <22cc342e-17a3-83db-0600-4fc84fd0cbaa@yandex.ru> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:49:07 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 05/04/2016 04:32 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > Users should not need to "avoid" using the default settings. Yes, they should install 'grep' and 'find'. Luckily, these programs are already available on the systems we care about most. And they're not so hard to install on the others. > The "new" is clearly not a sufficient replacement for the "old". > It should have been (should be) added only as an opt-in option, > not imposed as replacement. It's a tradeoff. We, frankly, don't have the technical capability (code quality WRT extensibility and manpower) to never remove features while continuing to move forward. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 11:02:15 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 15:02:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37845 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axyJb-0003zX-0i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:02:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:48599) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axyJY-0003zJ-Ka for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:02:13 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axyJJ-0002e6-D1 for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:02:04 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:49746) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axyJ6-0002Yx-JC; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:01:44 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2164 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axyIy-0004xs-UL; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:01:37 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 18:01:44 +0300 Message-Id: <838tzpkgtj.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <812a118d-331e-4f09-aeda-483ee71b1127@default> (message from Drew Adams on Tue, 3 May 2016 21:24:22 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> <85ff912d-1457-487d-80b2-412389876172@default> <812a118d-331e-4f09-aeda-483ee71b1127@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 21:24:22 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, Heinz Rommerskirchen > > > > Do I understand correctly (forgive me if wrong; I have not > > > studied this, and my Emacs 25 build is quite old) that `A' > > > in Dired is now bound by default to a command that requires > > > a user to have an external `grep' command? (This was not > > > the case previously.) > > > > Yusss. And 'find', too. > > Ugh. Hard to believe this got accepted, replacing a perfectly > good command that everyone could use (and has used, for decades) - > no dependency on anything outside Emacs, worked on all platforms. It didn't replace the old command, that one is still there, it just doesn't have a key binding by default. > This new feature should have been added as, uh, err, well, just > a new feature - a new command, totally unrelated to existing `A' > etc. Bad idea to usurp `A' for a command that requires a user > to have `grep' and `find'. Bad Emacs. We want to stop maintaining the etags-derived UI for moving through hits, so this is part of a plan. > But it seems that the new trend in Emacs Dev is to willy nilly > replace longstanding stuff, rather than just introducing new > stuff, letting users experiment with it, and after years of > experience and feedback PERHAPS change some default behavior > to make better use of it by default. FUD. As a matter of fact, we did exactly what you call for: introduced a new UI and commands to go with them, and let users experiment with them, while the old ones are still available, and the way to get back old behavior is described in NEWS. OTOH, when Drew will stop assuming "Emacs devs" have ill will, and release knee-jerk reactions, such as this one, based on that, is anyone's guess. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 11:10:40 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 15:10:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37867 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axyRj-0004CJ-Si for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:10:40 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:51906) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axyRi-0004C7-Gq for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:10:39 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axyRU-00057j-4g for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:10:30 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:49917) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axyRH-0004zz-FP; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:10:11 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2173 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axyR9-00058t-2n; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:10:03 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 18:10:11 +0300 Message-Id: <8337pxkgfg.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Dmitry Gutov In-reply-to: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Wed, 4 May 2016 13:32:41 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, drew.adams@oracle.com, kaushal.modi@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 13:32:41 +0300 > Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de > > Or submit a patch that adds a fallback to xref-collect-matches to open > all files and parse them in Emacs. I think we'd accept it. Indeed, patches to that effect are welcome. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 11:15:47 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 15:15:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37883 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axyWh-0004KZ-H6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:15:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53442) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axyWg-0004KL-27 for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:15:46 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axyWR-0006nQ-C4 for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:15:37 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:50064) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axyWF-0006jz-PH; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:15:19 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2188 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axyW7-00045n-3q; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:15:11 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 18:15:18 +0300 Message-Id: <831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default> (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 4 May 2016 06:32:20 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 06:32:20 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de > > The "new" is clearly not a sufficient replacement for the "old". > It should have been (should be) added only as an opt-in option, > not imposed as replacement. We obviously disagree. And that ship has sailed long ago, btw. You were here all that time, so I don't understand why you raise this only now. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 11:31:44 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 15:31:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37908 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axym8-0004jP-1a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:31:44 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:37862) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axym6-0004j5-Cy for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:31:42 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u44FVZJ2019367 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 15:31:36 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44FVYul029642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 15:31:35 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44FVW7H025201; Wed, 4 May 2016 15:31:33 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <8fd96a7a-bb77-4940-a3ff-d1fec018dd3d@default> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 08:31:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Dmitry Gutov Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default> <22cc342e-17a3-83db-0600-4fc84fd0cbaa@yandex.ru> In-Reply-To: <22cc342e-17a3-83db-0600-4fc84fd0cbaa@yandex.ru> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) > > Users should not need to "avoid" using the default settings. >=20 > Yes, they should install 'grep' and 'find'. Why "should" they? Shouldn't users decide what users should do? > > The "new" is clearly not a sufficient replacement for the "old". > > It should have been (should be) added only as an opt-in option, > > not imposed as replacement. >=20 > It's a tradeoff. Let users discover the feature and choose the tradeoff they prefer. Give Emacs Dev and users time to come to a more informed judgment. That's been the approach for decades, and it's a wise one. What's the hurry to replace? > We, frankly, don't have the technical capability (code quality WRT > extensibility and manpower) to never remove features while continuing to > move forward. Sounds like a BS imperative, to me. As if this new feature were a must-have, and replacing the existing feature(s) were a must-do-immediately (e.g. a security hole). Better: "move forward" separately, with a library/feature that people can choose to adopt. If it's a better mousetrap then users will choose it - no problem. If you are confident in the new feature, that's the way to show it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 11:31:44 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 15:31:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37910 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axym8-0004jR-88 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:31:44 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:37875) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axym7-0004j7-6d for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:31:43 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u44FVahu019397 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 15:31:37 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44FVaub029761 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 15:31:36 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44FVZq3032710; Wed, 4 May 2016 15:31:35 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 08:31:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <<57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> <85ff912d-1457-487d-80b2-412389876172@default> <812a118d-331e-4f09-aeda-483ee71b1127@default>> <<838tzpkgtj.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<838tzpkgtj.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) > > > > Do I understand correctly (forgive me if wrong; I have not > > > > studied this, and my Emacs 25 build is quite old) that `A' > > > > in Dired is now bound by default to a command that requires > > > > a user to have an external `grep' command? (This was not > > > > the case previously.) > > > > > > Yusss. And 'find', too. > > > > Ugh. Hard to believe this got accepted, replacing a perfectly > > good command that everyone could use (and has used, for decades) - > > no dependency on anything outside Emacs, worked on all platforms. >=20 > It didn't replace the old command, that one is still there, it just > doesn't have a key binding by default. It's the new feature that should perhaps not have a key. At least it should not grab an existing key. There are plenty of unbound keys in Dired. And why not just provide the command, for now, and let users bind it themselves if they like? > > This new feature should have been added as, uh, err, well, just > > a new feature - a new command, totally unrelated to existing `A' > > etc. Bad idea to usurp `A' for a command that requires a user > > to have `grep' and `find'. Bad Emacs. >=20 > We want to stop maintaining the etags-derived UI for moving > through hits, so this is part of a plan. So what? Introduce the new as optional behavior. Let users decide. What's the hurry to replace? > > But it seems that the new trend in Emacs Dev is to willy nilly > > replace longstanding stuff, rather than just introducing new > > stuff, letting users experiment with it, and after years of > > experience and feedback PERHAPS change some default behavior > > to make better use of it by default. >=20 > FUD. As a matter of fact, we did exactly what you call for: > introduced a new UI and commands to go with them, and let users > experiment with them, while the old ones are still available, and the > way to get back old behavior is described in NEWS. You changed the default behavior immediately. That's a far cry from providing, say, an ELPA package with the new feature and letting users adopt it by choice, and then, after a few years, discussing and deciding whether to replace the existing default behavior. What's the hurry to replace? > OTOH, when Drew will stop assuming "Emacs devs" have ill will, and > release knee-jerk reactions, such as this one, based on that, is > anyone's guess. When will Eli stop personalizing everything? I don't claim ill will - never have. I do see a difference in approach from what has been the practice. What's the imperative behind this key-binding replacement? Why not just offer the new feature as a plus, not a plus-and-minus? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 11:39:54 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 15:39:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37933 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axyu2-0004wD-4g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:39:54 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f43.google.com ([74.125.82.43]:37646) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axyu0-0004vy-KC for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:39:52 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f43.google.com with SMTP id a17so101534717wme.0 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 08:39:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=X0WWDzZxJWdKfSBwie9KsORdJXRbTvtHHeSDIwBnisU=; b=HjaM+xbAfYZ/v5D81B9XgIprc9WqQuZxlyqboj77O8rYX/EBY+Pm5/33LnaptdAvay dZNy2wUNs32JdR4S79oJVeN4CmIpVCSPvCyg/8Zd1ivn5X4ORmVaSBCJPRnmQpLrsG7i P+/2LHg9RK/fHgzV8LNIUPGmbkyhoBZKDW638gQHa4MqV5WgD3xCYJGKr56ScM7ha7wP smypJ0ydRp1B/v+0x/Ok82TxWkUv/zZzG6+M7XDs0AYbifMKibHaXFer76NOXyDlS+fd XbkE6RnGCJWdwdpuPtXnGL4o+QDu/5ND+cjVPDXeFUyqdn4HyzNQ4QIrXbcbE3oKbBs7 u5Dg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=X0WWDzZxJWdKfSBwie9KsORdJXRbTvtHHeSDIwBnisU=; b=cp5LoL8d8Mhi19h20NH9q93HkumGwhlQmcNzspKnSW07JVk8ZbzMb5iKc+PcjPLYTN 74lBMo4qQOAd+Y4506NYrm8JM3TJdaHFr4SvFwDe0BmsMvWNn4UY9sq9pmuDAFft6yL0 G8x5EkRSFZU9M6bAE8CnM3MoUmCulhFGIETHINRDl2eS5eN+twfAz/42YruQkyvbXQer GS2uN0iLRIQFhPN3wYbnTv5RRE5rM9SV92nJUphvagtE3ZE8qMn3efN1qqMlOATrEF9J v9W1xQV/zKBZakln3Pn/R57TjId04BBZjLtkWK0tJ/DDAuYjndPjdibrGya6PV1K7WkF eI6A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUHhXiuzOq9cgNQkxcrkfsVA5jrXYPM67xLTpIPTUaK1zEdWd7trVKFAU+0KvwAfQ== X-Received: by 10.28.216.76 with SMTP id p73mr10272718wmg.3.1462376387027; Wed, 04 May 2016 08:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.185] (static-nbl2-118.cytanet.com.cy. [212.31.107.118]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id f135sm4936223wmf.22.2016.05.04.08.39.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 04 May 2016 08:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii References: <<57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> <85ff912d-1457-487d-80b2-412389876172@default> <812a118d-331e-4f09-aeda-483ee71b1127@default> <<838tzpkgtj.fsf@gnu.org> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 18:39:44 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 05/04/2016 06:31 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > It's the new feature that should perhaps not have a key. At > least it should not grab an existing key. There are plenty of > unbound keys in Dired. And why not just provide the command, > for now, and let users bind it themselves if they like? Because we want to provide a coherent, consistent interface to the users. Since M-. has changes to the xref UI, it's better to use that UI in other searches when it's feasible. > You changed the default behavior immediately. That's a far > cry from providing, say, an ELPA package with the new feature > and letting users adopt it by choice, and then, after a few > years, discussing and deciding whether to replace the existing > default behavior. What's the hurry to replace? xref could have been incubated in ELPA, and that would have been a reasonable choice as well, but at the time it was decided to be good enough to be installed in the core already. So that ship has sailed. >> OTOH, when Drew will stop assuming "Emacs devs" have ill will, and >> release knee-jerk reactions, such as this one, based on that, is >> anyone's guess. > > When will Eli stop personalizing everything? There's no need to blame Eli for this, that's for sure. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 11:39:56 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 15:39:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37936 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axyu4-0004wS-C3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:39:56 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:44714) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axyu3-0004w2-8v for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:39:55 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u44FdlcI032669 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 15:39:48 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44FdkpO001258 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 15:39:47 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44FdiwB030223; Wed, 4 May 2016 15:39:45 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 08:39:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: < <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru>> <<6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default>> <<831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) > > The "new" is clearly not a sufficient replacement for the "old". > > It should have been (should be) added only as an opt-in option, > > not imposed as replacement. >=20 > We obviously disagree. How can the new be considered a sufficient replacement, if it means that `A' and `Q' no longer work for users without `grep' or `find'? > And that ship has sailed long ago, btw. When did it sail? This change is not present in any Emacs release AFAIK. > You were here all that time, so I don't understand why you raise > this only now. Dunno what you mean by "here". This is the first I've learned of this feature and the fact that it requires users to install `grep' and `find' commands to use `A' and `Q' in Dired. Had you simply _added_ this feature and not usurped the existing bindings, you would likely have heard nothing from me about this. I have no objection to the _addition_ of another way to search and replace in Dired. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 11:53:55 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 15:53:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37956 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axz7b-0006wT-42 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:53:55 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f50.google.com ([74.125.82.50]:37364) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axz7Z-0006wG-PN for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:53:54 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f50.google.com with SMTP id a17so102256346wme.0 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 08:53:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pxKEHMP8df/fqb4OpVPJMceTt8337IFtc75+iO28UiI=; b=rdvkEjZBy1vtAMb2JsSJwN0eW+MSPgDUfAfBjObOT7oN0XNV1TBPaixnqETiJmfxp4 TtoIFKid44vgp59t/O2aahg3zNn0qoZE2wKr5boCx7H+1VgGvsOzIZ/HfxBrab/mmh6E 1sX9j2iIubi+q20bEuv0LESDfFUs3QonDjkj6UykRil2ms18aOpBcJM6IGQjN9YRBybP Mr+7LYWpsNR5zNKyVRd8lDzWGGz/HrP79DRFc5VHzeOllOjF7MZh42JYtYIBptDrfeeD OgpLnzdOKnY/fqd0da9v43CB9gMdLkSCMrK1bB2KVArzNOqoz8PZbflQeT+bIkGypevh caPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pxKEHMP8df/fqb4OpVPJMceTt8337IFtc75+iO28UiI=; b=YjPMkQZPsBKxWw0dguvWR0aRSmiVeEjfU7Om0qTbRgY6baA0ojEc+VekE4xBJ0cvU0 wSFtmEt4Pj7lPKyRMDsZu6IVXbeeAfzbEbClkb4UYv64u2umRrnTsyhSVhyqh1ZqwImz xiyMVoM/MAgLxdB8kyFpN29o5oy8EHCnObWHFhB+OfIJI2XUU/+bir8JemsLXNgIm9lT Ds2q6YKfTatE4wlBgwzIP3wmVelcwLklZhK6zi/59uv+Dcc5icnzCCXtEAh6sGcQwMcw HO9ZZTmtgiAZtCMb48QTzwxw7PJ3J0vQ7++92+RXi28fegUCz7ECw74YMLLjNgNxROKS 4JLA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVwkWtnYuyvQmwZHg//TRK09Gbf1OluEUoDQlyrfzYtXXiwCtHuDQtrjwqdfsHoEQ== X-Received: by 10.194.175.168 with SMTP id cb8mr9449373wjc.56.1462377228166; Wed, 04 May 2016 08:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.185] (static-nbl2-118.cytanet.com.cy. [212.31.107.118]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id w79sm5673348wme.19.2016.05.04.08.53.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 04 May 2016 08:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii References: < <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <<6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default> <<831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: <6cf9e2bf-fa90-3783-b30a-9021074790b0@yandex.ru> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 18:53:46 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, kaushal.modi@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 05/04/2016 06:39 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > Had you simply _added_ this feature and not usurped the existing > bindings, you would likely have heard nothing from me about this. > I have no objection to the _addition_ of another way to search > and replace in Dired. That's very generous of you. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:00:58 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:00:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37968 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzEQ-0007te-2h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:00:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:38692) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzEO-0007nr-Oh for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:00:57 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzE9-0003Qy-M1 for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:00:48 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:50871) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzE9-0003QF-J5; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:00:41 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2227 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axzE3-0007Be-5T; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:00:35 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 19:00:43 +0300 Message-Id: <83r3dhizis.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 4 May 2016 08:31:33 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <<57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> <85ff912d-1457-487d-80b2-412389876172@default> <812a118d-331e-4f09-aeda-483ee71b1127@default>> <<838tzpkgtj.fsf@gnu.org>> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 08:31:33 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, 23426@debbugs.gnu.org > > > It didn't replace the old command, that one is still there, it just > > doesn't have a key binding by default. > > It's the new feature that should perhaps not have a key. At > least it should not grab an existing key. There are plenty of > unbound keys in Dired. And why not just provide the command, > for now, and let users bind it themselves if they like? It is easier to get users complain about what they dislike than report what they like. > > > This new feature should have been added as, uh, err, well, just > > > a new feature - a new command, totally unrelated to existing `A' > > > etc. Bad idea to usurp `A' for a command that requires a user > > > to have `grep' and `find'. Bad Emacs. > > > > We want to stop maintaining the etags-derived UI for moving > > through hits, so this is part of a plan. > > So what? Introduce the new as optional behavior. Let users > decide. What's the hurry to replace? See above. > What's the hurry to replace? Maintaining too many alternative UIs is a maintenance burden we cannot afford. > > OTOH, when Drew will stop assuming "Emacs devs" have ill will, and > > release knee-jerk reactions, such as this one, based on that, is > > anyone's guess. > > When will Eli stop personalizing everything? I don't. It's all personal to begin with. > I don't claim ill will - never have. May I suggest that you ask someone impartial to read all your posts, and provide feedback? You might be surprised to learn how your messages read. > What's the imperative behind this key-binding replacement? > Why not just offer the new feature as a plus, not a > plus-and-minus? See above. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:02:10 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:02:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37972 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzFa-0000MU-FF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:02:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:38956) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzFY-0000Gl-FG for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:02:09 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzFJ-0003lr-O8 for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:02:00 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:50907) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzFJ-0003ks-Lb; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:01:53 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2231 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axzFB-0007wr-8u; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:01:45 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 19:01:53 +0300 Message-Id: <83pot1izgu.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <8fd96a7a-bb77-4940-a3ff-d1fec018dd3d@default> (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 4 May 2016 08:31:30 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default> <22cc342e-17a3-83db-0600-4fc84fd0cbaa@yandex.ru> <8fd96a7a-bb77-4940-a3ff-d1fec018dd3d@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 08:31:30 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org > > Sounds like a BS imperative, to me. If you are still looking for proof of hostility in your messages, here's one. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:04:51 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:04:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37976 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzIA-0000R6-Tj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:04:51 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:27903) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzI8-0000Qs-Gb for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:04:49 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u44G4gRu006424 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 16:04:42 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44G4fF8001209 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 16:04:41 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u44G4eG1016305; Wed, 4 May 2016 16:04:41 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0ef7b74a-ba45-46a0-a46a-81bb6ae450a6@default> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 09:04:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <<57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> <85ff912d-1457-487d-80b2-412389876172@default> <812a118d-331e-4f09-aeda-483ee71b1127@default> <<838tzpkgtj.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) > > It's the new feature that should perhaps not have a key. At > > least it should not grab an existing key. There are plenty of > > unbound keys in Dired. And why not just provide the command, > > for now, and let users bind it themselves if they like? >=20 > Because we want to provide a coherent, consistent interface to the > users. Since M-. has changes to the xref UI, Same issue there. Why replace that key binding? Why not provide your new feature separately? What's the need to replace (now)? I understand that you think this new does everything the old does, and better. That's still not a good reason to replace the old immediately (including just taking over its key bindings). Just add the new - that should be enough. If it truly does everything the old does, and better, that will soon enough be clear to all, and there will be time enough to move out the old eventually. Emacs has long had parallel, different-behaving features that filled more or less the same needs for users. We haven't felt the imperative to replace one with another. You can use many different commands or UIs in Emacs to get the same job done. You can even emulate VI and CUA in Emacs. Emacs has been a big tent, not an in-with-the-new-way-out-with-the-old puptent. I welcome a show-all-search-hits-and-let-me-filter-and-choose approach for Dired searching. I've even developed such features myself, for my own use. I do not object to this feature - quite the opposite. What I question is replacing the existing features - and yes, even just appropriating their key bindings. That is not necessary - is it? Can't you just add this feature, without fiddling with the existing, different ways to search? Why must you insist on replacing and not be content to add? > > You changed the default behavior immediately. That's a far > > cry from providing, say, an ELPA package with the new feature > > and letting users adopt it by choice, and then, after a few > > years, discussing and deciding whether to replace the existing > > default behavior. What's the hurry to replace? >=20 > xref could have been incubated in ELPA, and that would have been a > reasonable choice as well, but at the time it was decided to be good > enough to be installed in the core already. So that ship has sailed. "That ship has sailed" seems to be the latest excuse for all kinds of stuff. Never heard that as an excuse here in past years. And no; nothing has sailed. None of this stuff has "shipped". Not curly-quotitis, and not this feature. This is a relatively recent phenomenon: wide-ranging, quick changes to C code etc., followed by "too late to question; already done; too late to back out now", even before released. > >> OTOH, when Drew will stop assuming "Emacs devs" have ill will, and > >> release knee-jerk reactions, such as this one, based on that, is > >> anyone's guess. > > > > When will Eli stop personalizing everything? >=20 > There's no need to blame Eli for this, that's for sure. I don't blame him (or anyone in particular) for the feature. I mentioned Eli by name because he mentioned me by name, and he attributed false motives to me. My complaint was about his personalizing things, not about his support of this feature. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:09:29 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:09:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37984 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzMb-0000YF-Gu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:09:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:41277) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzMZ-0000Xw-Qa for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:09:24 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzMK-0005pB-8J for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:09:15 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51035) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzM9-0005mA-7V; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:08:57 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2238 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axzM0-0007Gp-61; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:08:48 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 19:08:56 +0300 Message-Id: <83oa8liz53.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 4 May 2016 08:39:42 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: < <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru>> <<6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default>> <<831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org>> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 08:39:42 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, > heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de > > > > The "new" is clearly not a sufficient replacement for the "old". > > > It should have been (should be) added only as an opt-in option, > > > not imposed as replacement. > > > > We obviously disagree. > > How can the new be considered a sufficient replacement, if it > means that `A' and `Q' no longer work for users without `grep' > or `find'? We obviously don't consider that such a serious obstacle, and the commands are not popular enough for that to be an issue. > > And that ship has sailed long ago, btw. > > When did it sail? When it was decided to replace tags-* commands with xref-* commands, about a year ago, I'd say, maybe more. > This change is not present in any Emacs release AFAIK. I don't see how this fact is relevant. The discussions were held here and on emacs-devel, with you and others reading it. > > You were here all that time, so I don't understand why you raise > > this only now. > > Dunno what you mean by "here". Here on this mailing list. > This is the first I've learned of this feature and the fact that it > requires users to install `grep' and `find' commands to use `A' and > `Q' in Dired. May I suggest to pay more attention to on-going discussions in the future? > Had you simply _added_ this feature and not usurped the existing > bindings, you would likely have heard nothing from me about this. These commands were introduced with the explicit intent to replace the old ones as 'A' and 'Q' bindings, so that tags-loop-continue would not be needed anymore. Again, the discussions about that were all held here, for quite a few moons. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:10:35 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:10:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37988 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzNj-0000a6-MF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:10:35 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:19473) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzNh-0000Zs-Lk for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:10:34 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u44GARj8027662 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 16:10:27 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44GAR3b026400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 16:10:27 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u44GAPTC019916; Wed, 4 May 2016 16:10:26 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <93badbbc-31f6-409d-8dff-d67e9202deca@default> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 09:10:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: < <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <<6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default> <<831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> <6cf9e2bf-fa90-3783-b30a-9021074790b0@yandex.ru> In-Reply-To: <6cf9e2bf-fa90-3783-b30a-9021074790b0@yandex.ru> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, kaushal.modi@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) > > Had you simply _added_ this feature and not usurped the existing > > bindings, you would likely have heard nothing from me about this. > > I have no objection to the _addition_ of another way to search > > and replace in Dired. >=20 > That's very generous of you. I don't understand the hostility/sarcasm. I'm trying to be clear that I _welcome_ your feature, based on the description. It sounds like something useful. I just don't think it's great that you feel you should immediately replace other, existing ways to search, including grabbing their key bindings. It's a minor complaint: Keep the new feature, but please don't tread on existing keys and their features. Not without a good reason, at least. Is that too much to ask? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:13:31 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:13:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37992 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzQZ-0000eR-4n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:13:31 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42272) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzQY-0000eF-4V for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:13:30 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzQJ-0006wY-4s for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:13:21 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51154) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzQJ-0006vV-2o; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:13:15 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2243 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axzQC-00048k-T1; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:13:09 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 19:13:17 +0300 Message-Id: <83mvo5iyxu.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <0ef7b74a-ba45-46a0-a46a-81bb6ae450a6@default> (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 4 May 2016 09:04:39 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <<57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> <85ff912d-1457-487d-80b2-412389876172@default> <812a118d-331e-4f09-aeda-483ee71b1127@default> <<838tzpkgtj.fsf@gnu.org> <0ef7b74a-ba45-46a0-a46a-81bb6ae450a6@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 09:04:39 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > It's the new feature that should perhaps not have a key. At > > > least it should not grab an existing key. There are plenty of > > > unbound keys in Dired. And why not just provide the command, > > > for now, and let users bind it themselves if they like? > > > > Because we want to provide a coherent, consistent interface to the > > users. Since M-. has changes to the xref UI, > > Same issue there. Why replace that key binding? Why not provide > your new feature separately? Because that's not how Emacs development moves forward. And because we don't have enough resources for that. > > > When will Eli stop personalizing everything? > > > > There's no need to blame Eli for this, that's for sure. > > I don't blame him (or anyone in particular) for the feature. > I mentioned Eli by name because he mentioned me by name, and > he attributed false motives to me. My complaint was about his > personalizing things, not about his support of this feature. Why would I (or anyone else, for that matter) work on Emacs for so many years, if doing that wasn't deeply personal for us? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:15:35 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:15:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37996 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzSZ-0000i5-Hj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:15:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42809) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzSU-0000hl-4X for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:15:34 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzSF-0007aA-1u for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:15:21 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_05,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51183) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzRZ-0007FC-Qj; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:14:33 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2245 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axzRR-0007Lp-D7; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:14:25 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 19:14:33 +0300 Message-Id: <83lh3piyvq.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <93badbbc-31f6-409d-8dff-d67e9202deca@default> (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 4 May 2016 09:10:24 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: < <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <<6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default> <<831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> <6cf9e2bf-fa90-3783-b30a-9021074790b0@yandex.ru> <93badbbc-31f6-409d-8dff-d67e9202deca@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 09:10:24 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, kaushal.modi@gmail.com > > I'm trying to be clear that I _welcome_ your feature, > based on the description. It sounds like something useful. > > I just don't think it's great that you feel you should > immediately replace other, existing ways to search, > including grabbing their key bindings. Maybe you should actually try it before talking about it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:20:43 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:20:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38012 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzXX-0000q1-L9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:20:43 -0400 Received: from mail-oi0-f42.google.com ([209.85.218.42]:32821) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzXV-0000pp-Oe for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:20:42 -0400 Received: by mail-oi0-f42.google.com with SMTP id v145so71170050oie.0 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 09:20:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Vn1mrhkJXF0UXiKuX7z9jxXmjeq60caicz0J7MlqTUM=; b=cw2NDW/g0fFXldvrIzto9a/L+j9OM2DeyjHLMXQJre6YB1agaze91Ezrj6RvZWJ5Bq 99VrVHskOuZGN9L1ce35ITMLc39i07UuIwUscleqYvluwQ6FtM3bo0jDUSWngwUxIJ4s 0vbhtj6KVMhgYR77Lxb3NSbMhaly4A/dczIwObJzqynpfYIi3lcnSwneFelAxUtp8woy 8K2UDPX4o751wCBxhCrT/yr6ogKb7BD4s4HQPj9/+Gb1a5YZKa0DaUcWf6wnwnJe2go9 31BMZfcKZvdZjtZkhHf2XLKqzn2nXlHwvvDMdrqEmGfIUayDu4xLRZk/qluC4s3vbL0r 8mFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Vn1mrhkJXF0UXiKuX7z9jxXmjeq60caicz0J7MlqTUM=; b=c5oWj26nTatOGXKalSc8ZBRddXG8YvDsUzgydrtLVnwXwpDcdjuYfeSMHuM/uiVT0o vaw4qpoPZ/8ej+pHkfiX9X+WcHvAH6ZwwRIQRQzNMjH9edgQOBlw+G0y06UinKOW7gfb 0+Yg757gz7+bc7NGwNx9G8dHzcVy5lUnD8ig3N5qgNkjIzeeXcerT/pd5FUQXay3ZAdm PpnIEoFBXUeF9tAVbHlqm0eZiUxYmGTCg8aFOysDX+3VBc/iKVVkr8OKyu/NLlDLSPJ7 CWfXLRrDEC75V10lAhnTg031DSMqn+AyUFhIfdmz6tb/S8IZc5vvxGAhWs0xq2JXnQsb E87A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUgTQiQR5IDRy10McBHmlZzXItUpfleYAzA1iqhNMyyE+rQb9QMe/KXfiDCY9mc2r6XXU6kMPxvobfqeQ== X-Received: by 10.157.6.80 with SMTP id 74mr4644499otn.164.1462378836205; Wed, 04 May 2016 09:20:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> <6cf9e2bf-fa90-3783-b30a-9021074790b0@yandex.ru> <93badbbc-31f6-409d-8dff-d67e9202deca@default> In-Reply-To: <93badbbc-31f6-409d-8dff-d67e9202deca@default> From: Kaushal Modi Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 16:20:25 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Drew Adams , Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0934b60f27180532069bad X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --94eb2c0934b60f27180532069bad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi all, Even understanding that users would need to install GNU find & grep on their Windows system to use the new implementations bound to A/Q in dired, I believe that we should have the following: - NOT bind A/Q at all if the right dependencies are not found. I tried the A binding on Windows, it looked like it was grepping for the strings I entered and returned an empty *xref* window. The same search on same files worked as expected in RHEL (to be honest I love this new feature on RHEL, and I might start using the A binding). Currently the implementation on Windows gives an appearance that something was searched for and no results were found. That is misleading! - Another alternative would be (if we want to keep A/Q bindings) that a user-error or error be thrown if the correct external dependencies are not installed. The user should be let known that they need to install the GNU find/grep executables for their platform in order to use those commands. In the current implementation, the user will just assume that they searched something and nothing got returned. - The requirement to have find/grep installed should also go to backward incompatible changes section in NEWS. WDYT? -- -- Kaushal Modi --94eb2c0934b60f27180532069bad Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

Even understanding that users w= ould need to install GNU find & grep on their Windows system to use the= new implementations bound to A/Q in dired, I believe that we should have t= he following:

- NOT bind A/Q at all if the right d= ependencies are not found. I tried the A binding on Windows, it looked like= it was grepping for the strings I entered and returned an empty *xref* win= dow. The same search on same files worked as expected in RHEL (to be honest= I love this new feature on RHEL, and I might start using the A binding). C= urrently the implementation on Windows gives an appearance that something w= as searched for and no results were found. That is misleading!
- Another alternative would be (if we want to keep A/Q binding= s) that a user-error or error be thrown if the correct external dependencie= s are not installed. The user should be let known that they need to install= the GNU find/grep executables for their platform in order to use those com= mands. In the current implementation, the user will just assume that they s= earched something and nothing got returned.

- The = requirement to have find/grep installed should also go to backward incompat= ible changes section in NEWS.

WDYT?
--

--
Kaushal Modi

--94eb2c0934b60f27180532069bad-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:23:36 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:23:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38016 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzaK-0000un-4q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:23:36 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:40744) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzaI-0000uZ-5f for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:23:34 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u44GNQOV000707 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 16:23:26 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44GNQGN028478 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 16:23:26 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44GNOSA029302; Wed, 4 May 2016 16:23:25 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7013d5db-f294-4866-bdf9-79b04cd8f8a1@default> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 09:23:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <<> <<3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru>> <<<6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default>> <<<831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org>> <<7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default>> <<6cf9e2bf-fa90-3783-b30a-9021074790b0@yandex.ru>> <<93badbbc-31f6-409d-8dff-d67e9202deca@default>> <<83lh3piyvq.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83lh3piyvq.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) > > I'm trying to be clear that I _welcome_ your feature, > > based on the description. It sounds like something useful. > > > > I just don't think it's great that you feel you should > > immediately replace other, existing ways to search, > > including grabbing their key bindings. >=20 > Maybe you should actually try it before talking about it. I'm not talking about it. I'm talking about what it's replacing. I can assume that it is wonderful. And I understand something about the usefulness of users seeing a set of search hits together and being able to filter and choose among them. I don't, for even a moment, doubt its advantages. None of that speaks to why it should replace, instead of be an addition to, the longstanding `A' and `Q' behavior, which do not let users see a set of search hits. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:25:32 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:25:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38020 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzcC-0000xr-FW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:25:32 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f51.google.com ([74.125.82.51]:36604) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzcA-0000xd-J9 for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:25:30 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f51.google.com with SMTP id n129so196100585wmn.1 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 09:25:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HsprEEZn3dDuQ4S+ymNPe/kmZfqjzxnNTp04NM5wkQc=; b=xM6PospRwUc5ijNqwvIvJ+iIb8DYBolYfrg5TVHMRXniGVMpAK89GNxXJKeBo+271b 01k4A0o3V/8D5sojXTTW+UFO0nyHozH9WjwCYxUIYvudt8sZ5a2vuMBU8ZVRnNfjj5KO wczdcd8KGrO13kQm+fCm4Wi/BPSfZITNBv/+AbdHsRWvFX2uGeu1HE2nLjDHzMULb1AV U4Q583NOK7+SL2D6kvzmL2gN3qg30JewG6E845ZhFaV3fnhfhG2KZB6ePpsqxXq13Ivd Gmtf0WpNE5VgtcLzFJn4jbioPgvqLJ252Xxu69JnY1W74iKYSUet+so27RJ+fCRrue92 8FzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HsprEEZn3dDuQ4S+ymNPe/kmZfqjzxnNTp04NM5wkQc=; b=ZFKecPTP12UqH+/AsdEzyU/n8KM8IYGthHiR2uE4fQyZ2cxui5ObE6ZE5ZN5bC0EDU WcwmOXlSaDaqFCB59mdvELcROVPBVZBpxKSZaefazCWWMQ17bj/Ewrae/mBea9GKQHow xPMTtaORuj9Hs9nSnBY++Vr8bwWQ8xKCzH3C7BecC6T9X8mVOUBm18YqgQVKKw2d6Lc5 4Pjr8Kl6wXiSvkdHEG98A69fEo4uRnfvNpPJG3uzghJSm6wk7mmugF7UElIlpYDDBMrz ob+0d83DS1aaeoUagUWnvPa9C0rCHRapqhIGWCfqrykktmRqg87SH0JsUhRa9QMH4601 tveQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWFO1AAFyjo+rrxqBKfRlyusID8K3dm9aaKJMQGO0daP13NCdA0TrAMP4Ih0DbjiA== X-Received: by 10.28.140.12 with SMTP id o12mr31341622wmd.19.1462379124774; Wed, 04 May 2016 09:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.185] (static-nbl2-118.cytanet.com.cy. [212.31.107.118]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id e8sm5184421wma.2.2016.05.04.09.25.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 04 May 2016 09:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Kaushal Modi , Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> <6cf9e2bf-fa90-3783-b30a-9021074790b0@yandex.ru> <93badbbc-31f6-409d-8dff-d67e9202deca@default> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: <5310248b-fbda-3fe6-6fd0-7309f25008d7@yandex.ru> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 19:25:22 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 05/04/2016 07:20 PM, Kaushal Modi wrote: > - Another alternative would be (if we want to keep A/Q bindings) that a > user-error or error be thrown if the correct external dependencies are > not installed. The user should be let known that they need to install > the GNU find/grep executables for their platform in order to use those > commands. In the current implementation, the user will just assume that > they searched something and nothing got returned. Please file a separate bug about that. > - The requirement to have find/grep installed should also go to backward > incompatible changes section in NEWS. Not sure. I think we only have an "incompatible changes in Lisp" section. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:28:16 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:28:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38028 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzeq-00012H-3l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:28:16 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f51.google.com ([74.125.82.51]:36666) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzep-000121-1q for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:28:15 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f51.google.com with SMTP id n129so196203998wmn.1 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 09:28:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=X3qmpfuuPzLu5wLX+Nr40ePypsWhzDuu2fKbwG1qHOI=; b=L1spRGkMmjCpYXKUe1JuiU5Ib86TfHE6mCL1F+OJQ6tmjSb3dYpBzuXFal4CpXv3tN y/991wOYjs7C/syRWcMW0N4+OhOcqqYvOvItMejFZK9OYBGqb/zwYKfQJnDQ+Gh9Y+JM a9BYBnFKevYFSLFnP8DEktS97dgwbW4sP+ubxc/UV6Nl6ejsFuagKEYjc9kpZ91L8NZf sFtyo+OGhQTrOAgKpPJLY/26kl4OTIE7t9U4pVX2+qV9nVQVAX4978xZR6akH5hfaLz2 izQ5Gr6gBOp+x0C4nayeBt+Dj1yTcDTjoiSYJ5fxoOeXnIeiE1CK3RAL8/A7gGrd7Jib 1Apg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=X3qmpfuuPzLu5wLX+Nr40ePypsWhzDuu2fKbwG1qHOI=; b=PurejWw5gf3/4W0ej1iaiV5em7Q1EzU/XY+6OC9XM6TXKc3QaH3wyfdE6d6cc/DOgf aSRlP7blRty9jU236fxNipvjAfCyLJwqthsuWG/kcfjQvm84mNBcvYKKuChG1t4mBwkz x3ftPfFGsc7JfyNfv511tsDqbr+cKAB+h2IT7/0urWKV6Il0JVW0Dv3RglXUI9NCQBWW wrAI9U0TURMjKLH3E0p1eNzuwvchHJYF5w90gZiiE8zG0ffUJF5Ll84vQHO0ZdvPcsWo 0Ijp4X7d0t5wT9N3+nfgjat3e8XVcoe1ukgaXbkRzbjP9xM6Cc/AOKwwuuAX+2xVwb8V 9brg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXTPzc/4lZVEOlBcsf6JYFFFZ/v6zYiGuxMAJ6AhtkPaKfs4zPF0WtqQVVq6jSIzg== X-Received: by 10.28.212.71 with SMTP id l68mr32258223wmg.22.1462379289607; Wed, 04 May 2016 09:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.185] (static-nbl2-118.cytanet.com.cy. [212.31.107.118]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id az2sm5102107wjc.6.2016.05.04.09.28.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 04 May 2016 09:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii References: < <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <<6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default> <<831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> <6cf9e2bf-fa90-3783-b30a-9021074790b0@yandex.ru> <93badbbc-31f6-409d-8dff-d67e9202deca@default> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 19:28:07 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <93badbbc-31f6-409d-8dff-d67e9202deca@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, kaushal.modi@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 05/04/2016 07:10 PM, Drew Adams wrote: >>> Had you simply _added_ this feature and not usurped the existing >>> bindings, you would likely have heard nothing from me about this. >>> I have no objection to the _addition_ of another way to search >>> and replace in Dired. >> >> That's very generous of you. > > I don't understand the hostility/sarcasm. It is sarcasm. Designed to point out that your paragraph above is an empty statement. Of course if a change has no bearing on any user's workflow except on those who choose to opt in, there is literally nothing for you to complain about. But there are fewer things to be happy about as well. > It's a minor complaint: Keep the new feature, but please > don't tread on existing keys and their features. Not > without a good reason, at least. Is that too much to ask? It is. And if the complaint is minor, maybe spend less time arguing about it next time? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:32:56 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:32:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38036 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzjL-0001AD-Rp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:32:56 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:34059) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzjJ-00019z-Ok for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:32:54 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u44GWl6j025584 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 16:32:47 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44GWlaL020733 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 16:32:47 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44GWkum002202; Wed, 4 May 2016 16:32:47 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4befe332-60bb-4e0d-81ba-3cdb1041e8ec@default> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 09:32:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <<<57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> <85ff912d-1457-487d-80b2-412389876172@default> <812a118d-331e-4f09-aeda-483ee71b1127@default>> <<838tzpkgtj.fsf@gnu.org>> > <<83r3dhizis.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83r3dhizis.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) > Maintaining too many alternative UIs is a maintenance burden we cannot > afford. Even if you left the existing `A' and `Q' code dormant, there would likely be little noticeable problem. At least for a few years, while letting users experiment with the new. Seriously, how much change has been needed recently for the existing `A' and `Q' code? Code which you are anyway not removing immediately. The question I raised is only about the key bindings. > > I don't claim ill will - never have. >=20 > May I suggest that you ask someone impartial to read all your posts, > and provide feedback? You might be surprised to learn how your > messages read. Ditto. Can you show where I claimed ill will on anyone's part in making this change? I'm sure the intentions were good ones. That doesn't mean that the result is the best of all worlds. As I said earlier, if the key bindings had not been taken over, I would likely have said nothing at all about this new feature. Except possibly (once I've played with it) "thank you" for it. It's a minor complaint: Please leave the existing key bindings. > > What's the imperative behind this key-binding replacement? > > Why not just offer the new feature as a plus, not a > > plus-and-minus? >=20 > See above. The maintenance burden of the existing `A' and `Q' code? You're not removing it immediately anyway. Why the need to take over those keys immediately? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:40:08 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:40:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38045 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzqJ-0001Kk-QR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:40:07 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:51296) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzqI-0001KH-AA for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:40:06 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u44Ge0KU023515 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 16:40:00 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44Gdxhf002732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 16:40:00 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44GdwLa007179; Wed, 4 May 2016 16:39:59 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9565500b-a35d-4de1-922d-c0131ff35ff8@default> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 09:39:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: << <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru>>> <<<6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default>>> <<<831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default>> <<83oa8liz53.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83oa8liz53.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) > > How can the new be considered a sufficient replacement, if it > > means that `A' and `Q' no longer work for users without `grep' > > or `find'? >=20 > We obviously don't consider that such a serious obstacle, and the > commands are not popular enough for that to be an issue. If you leave those keys alone then there is no issue whatsoever. Users who want the traditional `A' and `Q' behavior need not install `grep' or `find'. Users who want the new behavior can do so if they need to - no problem. > > This change is not present in any Emacs release AFAIK. >=20 > I don't see how this fact is relevant. The discussions were held here > and on emacs-devel, with you and others reading it. Sorry, but you don't know what I read and don't read. > > > You were here all that time, so I don't understand why you raise > > > this only now. > > > > Dunno what you mean by "here". >=20 > Here on this mailing list. I read some messages in some bug reports, but certainly not most. > > This is the first I've learned of this feature and the fact that it > > requires users to install `grep' and `find' commands to use `A' and > > `Q' in Dired. >=20 > May I suggest to pay more attention to on-going discussions in the > future? You can suggest it, but I already spend far too much time paying attention to ongoing discussions here. > > Had you simply _added_ this feature and not usurped the existing > > bindings, you would likely have heard nothing from me about this. >=20 > These commands were introduced with the explicit intent to replace the > old ones as 'A' and 'Q' bindings, so that tags-loop-continue would not > be needed anymore. Again, the discussions about that were all held > here, for quite a few moons. I give up. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:42:20 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:42:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38049 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzsS-0001O3-7W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:42:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:50970) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzsP-0001Nq-L3 for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:42:18 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzsB-0007FO-BW for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:42:09 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51831) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axzs0-0007Aa-Oo; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:41:52 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2298 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axzrs-000311-1w; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:41:44 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 19:41:52 +0300 Message-Id: <83inytixm7.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Kaushal Modi In-reply-to: (message from Kaushal Modi on Wed, 04 May 2016 16:20:25 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> <6cf9e2bf-fa90-3783-b30a-9021074790b0@yandex.ru> <93badbbc-31f6-409d-8dff-d67e9202deca@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, drew.adams@oracle.com, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > From: Kaushal Modi > Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 16:20:25 +0000 > Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de > > - NOT bind A/Q at all if the right dependencies are not found. That's not possible. To find the dependencies, we need a trigger, which is the command itself. So it must be bound. > - Another alternative would be (if we want to keep A/Q bindings) that a user-error or error be thrown if the > correct external dependencies are not installed. The user should be let known that they need to install the GNU > find/grep executables for their platform in order to use those commands. In the current implementation, the > user will just assume that they searched something and nothing got returned. Detecting the situation and signaling an error is probably a good thing. But I'm not sure it isn't too late for such changes, unless we want to delay the release. > - The requirement to have find/grep installed should also go to backward incompatible changes section in > NEWS. As Dmitry points out, there is no such section. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:51:53 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:51:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38069 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay01h-0001f8-88 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:51:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53705) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay01e-0001ev-NX for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:51:51 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay01P-0001NL-4c for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:51:42 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51988) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay01P-0001Mu-1z; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:51:35 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2306 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ay01I-0004H6-Ih; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:51:29 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 19:51:36 +0300 Message-Id: <83futxix5z.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <4befe332-60bb-4e0d-81ba-3cdb1041e8ec@default> (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 4 May 2016 09:32:45 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <<<57278BA0.6010604@h-rommerskirchen.de> <4xr3dj7yrk.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <9638d58e-0c5c-a587-c3a6-272254597b88@yandex.ru> <85ff912d-1457-487d-80b2-412389876172@default> <812a118d-331e-4f09-aeda-483ee71b1127@default>> <<838tzpkgtj.fsf@gnu.org>> > <<83r3dhizis.fsf@gnu.org>> <4befe332-60bb-4e0d-81ba-3cdb1041e8ec@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 09:32:45 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, 23426@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Maintaining too many alternative UIs is a maintenance burden we cannot > > afford. > > Even if you left the existing `A' and `Q' code dormant, there > would likely be little noticeable problem. At least for a few > years, while letting users experiment with the new. > > Seriously, how much change has been needed recently for the > existing `A' and `Q' code? Code which you are anyway not > removing immediately. Asked and answered already. > The question I raised is only about the key bindings. We cannot move to a new UI without moving the key bindings, so your suggestion is at best impractical. > Can you show where I claimed ill will on anyone's part in making > this change? All over. > I'm sure the intentions were good ones. We all know what happens with good intentions. > As I said earlier, if the key bindings had not been taken over, > I would likely have said nothing at all about this new feature. It's not _what_ you say, it's _how_ you say it. > The maintenance burden of the existing `A' and `Q' code? The maintenance burden of the tags-loop-continue UI. > You're not removing it immediately anyway. Why the need to > take over those keys immediately? As a first significant step towards removing it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 14:07:09 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 18:07:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38146 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1CX-00059m-5v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:07:09 -0400 Received: from mail-oi0-f53.google.com ([209.85.218.53]:34777) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1CW-00059Z-8l for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:07:08 -0400 Received: by mail-oi0-f53.google.com with SMTP id k142so75068653oib.1 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:07:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=C4AMLJMM5jiEayqmIt0L7RuHoFf8mfaT5llHEjuwKPQ=; b=nUkS/l/uHQCKZYk9n+rJXO/lH9oglOB3AulRwrPm9U/bMSY+DxLfUlsdHKSGcugCqT S8gisd91L5wj7upYVZGfzIffiKmk+XBatxeSc4lklpKvU+2h0LRas7Gi6dgfv+lZJs5o ifgpvyVih/9J4KQJ6yCrRHkF+AzCGxYNZRleCD6nCIBoPobrOxkgHCiOnEJ5kSMpncFr EdQrDzJUISKE87movy9Y71nUTR0H9CPxppISPJGytn6EV37weN5w9PF7w0pPlee1Rxc4 o0IxDmApst2cHOhDPYVwnA0VBZEBBMkOGOI5tV5ZPnLJfAqQ0F/7GN8SX9Z+fjLFM73d 4hsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=C4AMLJMM5jiEayqmIt0L7RuHoFf8mfaT5llHEjuwKPQ=; b=HkyNO/eCV2qpfc4wKzOShVokrv28nn5cnZEcjmAZoafrwiy3IO0BlLi4ZrE2m9FVbj QEFdIjgNURBOnII9Bbjugedr9ps/2k16Z2GkZZO5bDkPXKaNRW0WdHlZRdqvj9eKVRdx rNZvNKCFngjezBumsho9ydJRRZaJiaRpgKsEvCqKpHus8Xtbx26LhSFltXK+rMG3+dJp yY1lhhLVQ4zy6qdt8NKPyTKH8PEFXe08G1qZpI3go+oAQKDumqAChUqNRECE1ELtEhZH hEiAlipUmNN5SCco1//D2jjvo4/eokfkRThCAS38HXlisSmgvVnmeq5HIMzsg0YvPRsE 3SaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FVOg2D2WtlYm74NKXA/J0GkEw4jXFL0nRxxV9vY3462SV2aOwfmv9G//ExHIuKsUzd4YPEG2E18tNkKsg== X-Received: by 10.202.60.194 with SMTP id j185mr4352136oia.197.1462385222740; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:07:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> <6cf9e2bf-fa90-3783-b30a-9021074790b0@yandex.ru> <93badbbc-31f6-409d-8dff-d67e9202deca@default> <83inytixm7.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83inytixm7.fsf@gnu.org> From: Kaushal Modi Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 18:06:53 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ce01cb9feb60532081715 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, drew.adams@oracle.com, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --001a113ce01cb9feb60532081715 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 OK, I have filed a new bug report for this request: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=23451 > That's not possible. To find the dependencies, we need a trigger, > which is the command itself. So it must be bound. > I meant that the A/Q keys be left unbound if dependencies are not found. > Detecting the situation and signaling an error is probably a good > thing. But I'm not sure it isn't too late for such changes, unless we > want to delay the release. > The current state keeps the Windows user believing that the A/Q action did not find anything, without giving them a hint that they don't have find/grep installed (which would be the case most of the time). If we want the Windows users to use the new implementation, they at least should know that they are missing the executables and that they need to install them manually. IMO this counts like a blocking bug. > > - The requirement to have find/grep installed should also go to backward > incompatible changes section in > > NEWS. > > As Dmitry points out, there is no such section. > Sorry, I got the impression that such section existed based on this recent commit: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?h=emacs-25&id=c68a09107c1f7459c626d38be5e0e991912e57ec -- -- Kaushal Modi --001a113ce01cb9feb60532081715 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK, I have filed a new bug= report for this request:

=C2=A0
That's not possible.=C2=A0 To find the dependencies, we need a t= rigger,
which is the command itself.=C2=A0 So it must be bound.

I meant that the A/Q keys be left unbound if dependencies = are not found.
=C2=A0
Detecti= ng the situation and signaling an error is probably a good
thing.=C2=A0 But I'm not sure it isn't too late for such changes, u= nless we
want to delay the release.

The current = state keeps the Windows user believing that the A/Q action did not find any= thing, without giving them a hint that they don't have find/grep instal= led (which would be the case most of the time). If we want the Windows user= s to use the new implementation, they at least should know that they are mi= ssing the executables and that they need to install them manually. IMO this= counts like a blocking bug.
=C2=A0
> - The requirement to have find/grep installed should also go to backwa= rd incompatible changes section in
> NEWS.

As Dmitry points out, there is no such section.

Sorry, I got the impression that such section existed based on thi= s recent commit:=C2=A0ht= tp://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?h=3Demacs-25&id=3Dc68a= 09107c1f7459c626d38be5e0e991912e57ec
= --

--
Kaushal Modi

--001a113ce01cb9feb60532081715-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 14:47:14 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 18:47:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38197 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1pK-0007kn-5S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:47:14 -0400 Received: from mail-oi0-f45.google.com ([209.85.218.45]:36592) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1pH-0007gD-5t for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:47:12 -0400 Received: by mail-oi0-f45.google.com with SMTP id x201so76424930oif.3 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:47:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=+KK23Dl76m1Dc5+6q0m0HiH9ZDBDXwhseWUdkezSVdw=; b=IJnb/ZGI1gHDKwwp8JXYv4OXo6LzwgtQhpE65VfmDy8ipwv3Ygx22AlEwCJ3mAB2a5 0Mh4pZW5NCQhfdlM4nd1cvORNEXrJka0PKS9JQ5bVmzMs8B9b4tlvU3S8Ho82+u0Nrtj YAUWPvf+9AGRIaZDpy+QvXNuHsm2W3aJ/zoqVh3zkmzSkWpyeT+qqoZgjDjGYJTs+D3Z ix6AEwTJvRTc2j4w/NRgvKPrNHQbrS1O4ffKUwZChDZPprB34/dipeHKhNya1l07sj5B 3hnuR4eDL9PHiSY1s2qpkKW0Nw9ejdY0on/VAT0CIrYR31js1i/yzb6+lYXqv4HRu3uJ jXZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=+KK23Dl76m1Dc5+6q0m0HiH9ZDBDXwhseWUdkezSVdw=; b=b8uPtRxLEfhI9xnNqJXzPfqa8WGK2JZUL2HwShUoItHt9xpNcFhVB5eJ0LqPNyNR/o lrljU7UX9ADW4g0eYmoVBYwK7SoVgrhMSTZpsE1B6KRY38V2PmK5pi1PL4+myeuVwC62 D0794qUXq4nSgG/3sGLofu3PEQLEB225zIg3AqXVeilM2iWVb0FVhjiGNBjdVszOyTuO kTkqvy7q1UMYiaduTwP3utROCXSkIsm1KVC5wgSB9fJoQdKrtDPybBm+/MPufDW/dpTZ aj+UTXoHRZ9A67AvGZgt0+uB9DZX0sMOYuwC/NbgNWqkEOYCADnqub1MZiB3gfQlbPeG anjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FX8ccFz52xHDQwQsccIhN5jL107BFyZmBEXo9M/VtwG2GrrTfB6fAhUgJEIoG6BYw== X-Received: by 10.157.43.33 with SMTP id o30mr5175369otb.146.1462387625459; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g4sm1831584obk.24.2016.05.04.11.47.03 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 May 2016 11:47:03 -0700 (PDT) From: John Wiegley X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6695D1496BBB4; Wed, 4 May 2016 11:47:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline In-Reply-To: <9565500b-a35d-4de1-922d-c0131ff35ff8@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 4 May 2016 09:39:57 -0700 (PDT)") Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 11:20:31 -0700 Message-ID: References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru>>> <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default>>> <831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org>>> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default>> <83oa8liz53.fsf@gnu.org>> <9565500b-a35d-4de1-922d-c0131ff35ff8@default> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.93 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Drew Adams writes: >> These commands were introduced with the explicit intent to replace the o= ld >> ones as 'A' and 'Q' bindings, so that tags-loop-continue would not be >> needed anymore. Again, the discussions about that were all held here, for >> quite a few moons. > I give up. Hi Drew, I think all of this is happening in an attempt to re-establish consistency among usage patterns, keybindings, and other features, so that the old tag lookup functionality can be entirely replaced by the new xref functionality. Could it all have happened differently? Sure; but as Eli and Dmitry have sa= id, that ship has sailed. It happened under a different maintainer, and so now = we have to accept what it is and work toward the best solution using this technology. It's that, or rip it all out altogether, which Eli assures me would be an unfortunate loss of time, energy, and some very nice improvemen= ts. So, if we could all just take a pause: nothing is perfect, and we're now trying to achieve the best stability we can in preparation for the next release. I'm quite open to future proposals regarding 26, if you want to st= art those discussions. Until then, let's try our best to help Eli and Dmitry and others to get these features ready for prime-time, rather than continuing to question things that happened and were discussed quite some months ago. Thanks! =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJXKj1vAAoJEMFE2PTxn+YwXCAL/30P5iGUByb1axZU2YJI8isH SLe80TtpCD4PqPeNFaQZhWeE6rTnYTe8Z/krcCmF1jjVHadZdG0vlizpIH9I2T5y flZmFVbZJ78g3DLv+u8ZCEqor425ujeHBVMtmfX82z6PxuQDLB4opBpIc8DsXRgT 9uBPKz7mis4KysJf3cZAwV7jKuLzjyQ+jYY3Ow+Tl3ZStHw7bTOI8xXO10Ien/xv HwNa3aJOj0WQC4wTCqDd54wxq/jsskvvv0dbyzLcToeVevpZdtutjAj3Q6GKRcOe X9tWHm5xofiQDGIcFed2dhAYcyv7x30ukRsFwEtMtFTghMY8D28oKAawxoSAlhdp 9jHFT4x0fXIzqJpXTG0k579lPBfubn1l3jwF8xf/FRpq9is4sbbfqmkYz/QFECnb IhyqJYJRYbBPXeNo3fKn8av2OXQBGknkjDeeQxaPLAO8hLPMeDN7n7eIcWQRSsfD vSdFy5Wedvei4FxOnOX++fw2JZeXIMFJWALuj7ZaXA== =Hl5c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 16:09:17 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 20:09:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38288 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay36j-0006RE-BD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 16:09:17 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:34671) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay36h-0006Qz-Kl for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 16:09:16 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u44K99Nw009006 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 20:09:09 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44K98N5016913 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 4 May 2016 20:09:09 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u44K976M025480; Wed, 4 May 2016 20:09:07 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6f8f0880-95ea-4a8c-a193-8d7781a67375@default> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 13:09:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: John Wiegley Subject: RE: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru>>> <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default>>> <831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org>>> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default>> <83oa8liz53.fsf@gnu.org>> <9565500b-a35d-4de1-922d-c0131ff35ff8@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) > I think all of this is happening in an attempt to re-establish consistenc= y > among usage patterns, keybindings, and other features, so that the old ta= g > lookup functionality can be entirely replaced by the new xref > functionality. >=20 > Could it all have happened differently? Sure; but as Eli and Dmitry have > said, that ship has sailed. It happened under a different maintainer, > and so now we have to accept what it is and work toward the best solution= =20 > using this technology. It's that, or rip it all out altogether, which > Eli assures me would be an unfortunate loss of time, energy, and some > very nice improvements. It's not clear to me why you are saying this. I certainly have not requested any ripping out of anything - altogether or otherwise. I have not said anything negative about this technology - no complaints. I asked only that `A' and `Q' be left bound to their commands (which are still available). As I said, if those bindings were not being co-opted immediately then I would have had nothing to say here. I've heard no reason why different bindings, instead, are not given to the new search and search-and-replace features, at least as long as the original commands are supported. No reason, that is, beyond the statement that the ultimate aim is to replace the older commands. And even if `A' and `Q' were to be co-opted, if the new commands worked for all users of the old, I would no doubt have said nothing. I spoke up here when I guessed that some users of `A' and `Q' today would be unable to use them tomorrow, without installing some non-Emacs software. I spoke up to ask whether my guess was correct (yes). And apparently I was not the only one to whom this was news. If the older commands are to be replaced, and not just supplemented, by the new ones, then I do think this is a step backward for someone who does not have `grep' or `find' (I have both, so this is not a problem for me personally). That's my opinion, and it does not imply or call for ripping out anything. If the older commands are kept available and the new commands are given different key bindings, I see no problem at all. I have nothing against the addition of commands that use `grep' and `find' and show you all search hits. Quite the contrary. As I said clearly, I _welcome_ such an approach. To which explicit welcome the response was a sarcastic "That's very generous of you." Is it possible to welcome the new commands but point out disagreement with their being assigned the keys `A' and `Q'? If this is all about "an attempt to re-establish consistency among usage patterns, keybindings, and other features" then I do not see the imperative of assigning `A' and `Q' immediately to these new search commands. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 18:06:50 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 22:06:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38427 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay4wS-0000uY-RB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 18:06:49 -0400 Received: from mail.johnwiegley.com ([208.82.103.192]:52983 helo=Hermes.local) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay49L-000847-Dn for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 17:16:04 -0400 Received: by Hermes.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 454F32415C1; Wed, 4 May 2016 14:16:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Wiegley" To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline In-Reply-To: <6f8f0880-95ea-4a8c-a193-8d7781a67375@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 4 May 2016 13:09:06 -0700 (PDT)") Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 14:13:13 -0700 Message-ID: References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru>>> <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default>>> <831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org>>> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default>> <83oa8liz53.fsf@gnu.org>> <9565500b-a35d-4de1-922d-c0131ff35ff8@default> <6f8f0880-95ea-4a8c-a193-8d7781a67375@default> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.93 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 04 May 2016 18:06:47 -0400 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) >>>>> Drew Adams writes: > I asked only that `A' and `Q' be left bound to their commands (which are > still available). As I said, if those bindings were not being co-opted > immediately then I would have had nothing to say here. Ah, I see. My apologies, Drew, I thought your comments were directed at the functionality underlying the new bindings, not simply the bindings themselves. I'm sure this has been discussed at length somewhere that I missed, but can someone direct me again to the rationale for changing the bindings of 'A' and 'Q'? I'd like to review it in the light of Drew's comments. Thanks, -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 05 13:02:13 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2016 17:02:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40515 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMfF-0008CZ-FO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:02:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:58021) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMfD-0008CN-U1 for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:02:12 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMez-0007We-Ep for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:02:03 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:49265) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMeG-00073H-JR; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:01:12 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3661 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMe8-0000tv-4h; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:01:04 -0400 Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 20:01:14 +0300 Message-Id: <83r3dgh21x.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: John Wiegley In-reply-to: (message from John Wiegley on Wed, 04 May 2016 11:20:31 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru> <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default> <831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default> <83oa8liz53.fsf@gnu.org> <9565500b-a35d-4de1-922d-c0131ff35ff8@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, drew.adams@oracle.com, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > From: John Wiegley > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, kaushal.modi@gmail.com > Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 11:20:31 -0700 > > Could it all have happened differently? Sure; but as Eli and Dmitry have said, > that ship has sailed. It happened under a different maintainer, and so now we > have to accept what it is and work toward the best solution using this > technology. It's that, or rip it all out altogether, which Eli assures me > would be an unfortunate loss of time, energy, and some very nice improvements. If we will feel free to revert recent decisions just because the leader who made them stepped down, this will make the leadership position much less attractive. Not a good thing for us, as a project. The record shows that I was one of the first to publish criticism about the XREF UI, and to some extent about the design of the features based on it. That criticism was mostly rejected (although some of it was used to improve the implementation). With that decision taken, in full view of everyone on this list, to me it's what the project as a whole decided. That's what I mean by "that ship sailed". To revert that decision would IMO entail demonstrating, beyond any doubt, that these features are grossly inefficient, or incapable of supporting reasonable workflows, and that the flaws are so inherent in the design as to be beyond repair. Any other criticism should be in the form of bug reports about specific problems. Arguments and "bug reports" in the "Carthago delenda est" style are explicitly _unhelpful_ and not welcome, and IMO are simply unfair to the project as a whole. Let me repeat the rationale for those who somehow missed it: the decision was to move the tags-* commands to the new infrastructure and the new API. As part of that, 'M-,' was rebound to a new xref command, thus leaving tags-loop-continue without a binding, on the assumption that tags-loop-continue is no longer important enough to have a default keybinding. (That, too, was a conscious decision, discussed at length here.) Switching Dired keybindings that invoked commands which used tags-loop-continue to the new UI is a logical move on the path to stop using tags-loop-continue and minimize/eliminate the need for it to have a keybinding. That is why 'A' and 'Q' in Dired were rebound to new commands that are based on XREF. There's no stupidity here, and no ill will; nothing but a step that follows a decision made by the project leadership not so long ago. We should respect that decision, and work together on improving the features and fixing any issues left. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 05 13:04:56 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2016 17:04:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40519 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMho-0008GT-Vl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:04:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:59682) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMhn-0008GH-Jp for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:04:51 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMhY-0000lK-Mt for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:04:43 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:49306) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMgp-0000Rs-Vx; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:03:52 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3662 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMgh-00016o-HC; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:03:43 -0400 Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 20:03:54 +0300 Message-Id: <83pot0h1xh.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <6f8f0880-95ea-4a8c-a193-8d7781a67375@default> (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 4 May 2016 13:09:06 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru>>> <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default>>> <831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org>>> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default>> <83oa8liz53.fsf@gnu.org>> <9565500b-a35d-4de1-922d-c0131ff35ff8@default> <6f8f0880-95ea-4a8c-a193-8d7781a67375@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, jwiegley@gmail.com, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 13:09:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru, > heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, kaushal.modi@gmail.com > > I asked only that `A' and `Q' be left bound to their commands (which > are still available). As I said, if those bindings were not being > co-opted immediately then I would have had nothing to say here. > > I've heard no reason why different bindings, instead, are not given > to the new search and search-and-replace features, at least as long > as the original commands are supported. No reason, that is, beyond > the statement that the ultimate aim is to replace the older commands. You did hear the reasons. I have now repeated them in a previous message. > I spoke up here when I guessed that some users of `A' and `Q' today > would be unable to use them tomorrow, without installing some > non-Emacs software. Those same users will have to download and install Emacs itself, and most probably also download and install the new versions of support libraries (which are distributed separately). Why doing that is any different from installing Grep and Findutils (which, btw, are available from the same site as those optional libraries), is unclear to me. Installing GNU tools on Windows always required a certain amount of "tinkering", so let's trust our Windows users a bit more that they are not too inept, okay? Heck, we don't even know how many Emacs users on MS-Windows out there don't _already_ have those packages installed. (My guess: zero.) We also don't know how many Windows users actually know or care about these two specific Dired commands. (My guess: not too many.) > Is it possible to welcome the new commands but point out disagreement > with their being assigned the keys `A' and `Q'? Yes, it is. But the style of doing that matters. Try assuming that the reasons for the decisions with which you disagree are not "rush", or ineptitude, or lack of understanding of basic UI design. You complain about sarcasm, but have you considered the flood of sarcasm that you repeatedly pour on us? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 05 13:08:37 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2016 17:08:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40531 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMlQ-0008Mn-Vo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:08:37 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:33726) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMlP-0008Mb-8D for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:08:35 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMlA-00038s-KE for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:08:26 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:49366) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMk9-0002eb-2r; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:07:17 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3670 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMk0-0001YS-JB; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:07:09 -0400 Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 20:07:19 +0300 Message-Id: <83lh3oh1rs.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: "John Wiegley" In-reply-to: (johnw@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru>>> <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default>>> <831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org>>> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default>> <83oa8liz53.fsf@gnu.org>> <9565500b-a35d-4de1-922d-c0131ff35ff8@default> <6f8f0880-95ea-4a8c-a193-8d7781a67375@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, drew.adams@oracle.com, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > From: "John Wiegley" > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, kaushal.modi@gmail.com > Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 14:13:13 -0700 > > I'm sure this has been discussed at length somewhere that I missed, but can > someone direct me again to the rationale for changing the bindings of 'A' and > 'Q'? I'd like to review it in the light of Drew's comments. Rather than embarking on a search, I just repeated the rationale in a previous message. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 05 19:46:23 2016 Received: (at 23426) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2016 23:46:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40915 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1aySyN-0001GK-8n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 19:46:23 -0400 Received: from mail-oi0-f43.google.com ([209.85.218.43]:35803) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1aySyK-0001G4-Vb for 23426@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 19:46:21 -0400 Received: by mail-oi0-f43.google.com with SMTP id x19so121287261oix.2 for <23426@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 05 May 2016 16:46:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=JjoicqKYYO0AEr8zxVjD5tKr4h1vQym3y8viKhHjbKY=; b=dBqJV55C9+6d3/vyEfcj+44j42f6QjWpoKm0WqWcyuejYCQy0uhIHQwrFI/KDXOX0S Y1QWOkED5Dxp3hDel+Drw5I+mi2GozJ/Ey/EBRS2KanCbS7taU4oZcg10xqyZo8JoWn7 vKo58pvVLvYzsAlKS8GcBBnY+c4ts9LZkWRwhZCyWVeI/B6fkn8iCZCYhxXPqQnzf0Fd IC4THiBeXW2lenHDEUS6UV7PRaMIcUJiC0Z1B0gR3Mucurgxm4eViKmapWFSD3gggInU JCFjPYqpH4qF1NweOJ+NLu+qSl/HLyPgZ1p5KjEsulXS21yPAnSczgyYH7oXoNcGPMqk Yc2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=JjoicqKYYO0AEr8zxVjD5tKr4h1vQym3y8viKhHjbKY=; b=PNdoFr9+4kYF+imnYpxflLFcpi0M+YW2SB3BW4ZGNUxEdEgCCSl9Zy1My71qvaN0Pp A744KjCnm0erfVTm38lxzKYsMkX15Uag3MZZGm3NXyWcrlZKnz0x+4VhEmu79QF/JiQu 6NMPHbI2mYIWY9+LJfrCjFNfWd/wVKfEx5S+AHeRrvDk7p2eCD1feHNcEUT7J61KuVsi sRalKzNcPmrpfs5PbQHj+oOb6THnOpx4+xV+OKQjfPVynH7SrTzjL8oY8JpfWqirB4SV 3lL/TTaceAgvZGKbhoLbbuQhkLRaNZ3Qy6TJ1B8XGPGUJdPgqczG1FeyV7AiSfVwv9Aw oEUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FWt83MbT8EL7nqDTtJLfcgWnr272iY2qoJvpn+Z0XceNuEmeW7jtjhov8Ofi7KRew== X-Received: by 10.157.35.113 with SMTP id k46mr8764995otd.34.1462491975399; Thu, 05 May 2016 16:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w140sm3920945oif.24.2016.05.05.16.46.13 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 05 May 2016 16:46:13 -0700 (PDT) From: John Wiegley X-Google-Original-From: John Wiegley Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6FA311497402F; Thu, 5 May 2016 16:46:12 -0700 (PDT) To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#23426: 25.0.93; dired-do-find-regexp doesn't find newline In-Reply-To: <83lh3oh1rs.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 05 May 2016 20:07:19 +0300") Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 16:44:48 -0700 Message-ID: References: <3ba077a2-21e0-9799-4f8b-c07bd1623853@yandex.ru>>> <6a4860bb-2b39-4da4-b2a7-7b8d15211fee@default>>> <831t5hkg6x.fsf@gnu.org>>> <7da95e19-50ff-4ca5-a5b8-2a7f65c2a7cd@default>> <83oa8liz53.fsf@gnu.org>> <9565500b-a35d-4de1-922d-c0131ff35ff8@default> <6f8f0880-95ea-4a8c-a193-8d7781a67375@default> <83lh3oh1rs.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.93 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23426 Cc: 23426@debbugs.gnu.org, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, heinz@h-rommerskirchen.de, drew.adams@oracle.com, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > Rather than embarking on a search, I just repeated the rationale in a > previous message. Thanks, Eli! It made sense, and was much appreciated. One thing about a comment you made: > If we will feel free to revert recent decisions just because the leader w= ho > made them stepped down, this will make the leadership position much less > attractive. Conversely, if the leadership (hi) feels bound to uphold recent decisions m= ade by predecessors, this also makes the position less attractive, because one should be free to enact the changes one sees as better for Emacs. I respect that the decision was made by many, so I don't ever approach throwing it out lightly; but I reserve the right to get ornery if something strikes me as truly terrible for our future. =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJXK9rwAAoJEMFE2PTxn+YwYAYMAIAKTes3DIAUtM3TxXn/rLXH Y9OQQSyB+aw8QCi3SySQsMXr3FrXtR8zbaqQvEI+bVFop5Thx7bJSWRl9BWIzhIe iWyZ2RCT0VNwkpnYv2UxJkC4FxHw/Fl1oB15O7L6SSooyS0yxsvml6PAKTS1rK+H V2lk/Axmy64yE9cqhK3w7MKEwVxhNEpemYfqI4z+muh/zkkOQamCUSQ2dFks0gGK +jVB6kTRAgbpCUYdqarg9JwGQYB2hf8Uw2R+bQxMOB2f42ZmaTMbwEBxxutTkn7o UvEHwSfC1Fv4aN1phVcyGOBX0sl7YqBhwdkYDATfM+7Oux6Pak3vTlsdOLDVVWHd 79f8M0/V6t4H29YDFx/LKwvHXq37Enc9yU0QjamYDyvksGRwWzCI5Xhz1gR2uphv C3UGZN+ykHMRAQRXRlCnf3HxCww3jyes7qhUAuTr8rjLryOpfKKfqMKOQWYlOpWl NdRHla6Tvkko5JHp+2KciHSN0zUte0WvR9ekpIQ9mQ== =cC2d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From unknown Thu Jun 19 14:04:53 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2016 11:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 25 11:34:26 2016 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Aug 2016 15:34:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40786 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bcwfi-0002m3-3W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Aug 2016 11:34:26 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:57127) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bcwfg-0002lp-Q1 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Aug 2016 11:34:24 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bcwfa-0002YL-PL for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Aug 2016 11:34:19 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:39382) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bcwfa-0002Xx-MS for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Aug 2016 11:34:18 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bcwfZ-0004vS-Bk for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Aug 2016 11:34:17 -0400 Subject: control message for bug 24305 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.99.98) Message-Id: From: Glenn Morris Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 11:34:17 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.3 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.3 (-----) unarchive 23426 forcemerge 23426 24305 From unknown Thu Jun 19 14:04:53 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 11:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator