From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:09:37 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#23425 <23425@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#23425 <23425@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Reply-To: bug#23425 <23425@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 14:09:37 +0000 retitle 23425 master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. reassign 23425 emacs submitter 23425 Alan Mackenzie severity 23425 normal tag 23425 wontfix notabug thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 02 11:25:09 2016 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2016 15:25:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34004 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axFie-0004tU-Ra for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 11:25:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:58102) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axFid-0004sy-Kk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 11:25:07 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axFiP-0006hj-5R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 11:24:59 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:41894) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axFiP-0006gY-2C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 11:24:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48838) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axFiD-0002gP-DU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 11:24:47 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axFhy-0006Xw-2i for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 11:24:33 -0400 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:37242) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axFhx-0006Ti-Pb for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 11:24:25 -0400 Received: (qmail 36388 invoked by uid 3782); 2 May 2016 15:24:15 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548A435F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.138.67.95]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 02 May 2016 17:24:14 +0200 Received: (qmail 5409 invoked by uid 1000); 2 May 2016 14:55:17 -0000 Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 14:55:17 +0000 To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20160502145517.GA5357@acm.fritz.box> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 9.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) Hello, Emacs. In the following function: (defun replay-parse-state-state () (message (concat "(setq " (mapconcat (lambda (arg) (format "%s %s%s" (car arg) (if (atom (cdr arg)) "" "'") <================== (if (markerp (cdr arg)) (format "(copy-marker %s)" (marker-position (cdr arg))) (cdr arg)))) c-parse-state-state " ") ")"))) , the quote mark on the marked line is an ASCII quote, 0x27. When this function runs in the Emacs master branch under X-Windows, the output of this quote gets corrupted into a curly quote, as follows: | v (setq c-state-cache ’((32429 . 33731) 795 365) c-state-cache-good-pos 33731 c-state-nonlit-pos-cache ’(53334 50334 47334 44334 41334 38334 35334 32334 29099 26099 23099 20099 17099 13993 10731 7641) c-state-nonlit-pos-cache-limit 53334 c-state-semi-nonlit-pos-cache ’(32334 29099 26099 23099 20099 17099 13993 10731 7641) c-state-semi-nonlit-pos-cache-limit 32334 c-state-brace-pair-desert nil c-state-point-min 1 c-state-point-min-lit-type nil c-state-point-min-lit-start nil c-state-min-scan-pos 1 c-state-old-cpp-beg nil c-state-old-cpp-end nil c-parse-state-point 33733) When this output is fed back into Emacs with M-:, it produces an obscure error message. This has wasted a lot of time identifying the problem, and fruitlessly searching for a solution in the Emacs and Elisp manuals, etc. This is a bug. If a constant ASCII quote is presented to `message' or `format', it should be processed as such. This bug might exist in the emacs-25 branch, too. If so, could it be corrected there too, please, before the release? -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 02 12:25:50 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2016 16:25:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34076 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axGfO-0006Xw-29 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 12:25:50 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:40489) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axGfM-0006Xn-LG for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 12:25:49 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axGfG-0005W6-1P; Mon, 02 May 2016 18:25:46 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <20160502145517.GA5357@acm.fritz.box> Date: Mon, 02 May 2016 18:25:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20160502145517.GA5357@acm.fritz.box> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Mon, 2 May 2016 14:55:17 +0000") Message-ID: <87bn4owhoa.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Alan Mackenzie writes: > This has wasted a lot of time identifying the problem, and fruitlessly > searching for a solution in the Emacs and Elisp manuals, etc. Wow. That's pretty egregious: (message "'foo'") =3D> "=92foo=92" It's part of Paul grand War On Quotes, I guess. I think this part should be reverted, at least. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 02 12:41:19 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2016 16:41:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34084 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axGuN-0006uf-Lx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 12:41:19 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:17559) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axGuL-0006uS-Tm for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 12:41:18 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u42GfAjJ018348 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 May 2016 16:41:11 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u42GfATZ022471 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 2 May 2016 16:41:10 GMT Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id u42Gf9kh008387; Mon, 2 May 2016 16:41:10 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 09:41:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Alan Mackenzie Subject: RE: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <20160502145517.GA5357@acm.fritz.box> <87bn4owhoa.fsf@gnus.org> In-Reply-To: <87bn4owhoa.fsf@gnus.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > This has wasted a lot of time identifying the problem, and fruitlessly > > searching for a solution in the Emacs and Elisp manuals, etc. >=20 > Wow. That's pretty egregious: (message "'foo'") =3D> "'foo'" >=20 > It's part of Paul grand War On Quotes, I guess. I think this part > should be reverted, at least. You mean you don't find the improvement more beautiful? Luddite! ;-) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 02 13:54:08 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2016 17:54:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34143 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axI2q-00027y-44 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:54:08 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:45484) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axI2o-00027I-BP for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 13:54:06 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1F8161257; Mon, 2 May 2016 10:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id vl64DdU1i0G7; Mon, 2 May 2016 10:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9CC816126D; Mon, 2 May 2016 10:53:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 5Qb5QnvPYRNR; Mon, 2 May 2016 10:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B072B161257; Mon, 2 May 2016 10:53:59 -0700 (PDT) To: Alan Mackenzie From: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 10:53:59 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------21BF4D5849CA59E7CC5093C3" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------21BF4D5849CA59E7CC5093C3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (message "%s" M) is the usual way to output a message M without=20 formatting it, and something like this is needed anyway if M might=20 contain %. Accordingly, I installed the attached patch into the emacs-25=20 branch and merged the result to master. I had already adjusted some=20 other instances of calls to =E2=80=98message=E2=80=99 (to fix problems wi= th % as well as=20 with quotes) but missed this call; sorry about that. The behavior of =E2=80=98message=E2=80=99 is documented in the manual, in= doc strings,=20 and the quoting change in Emacs 25 is documented in etc/NEWS, so it is=20 not a bug per se. --------------21BF4D5849CA59E7CC5093C3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="0001-Fix-quoting-problem-in-cc-engine-debug-message.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-Fix-quoting-problem-in-cc-engine-debug-message.txt" RnJvbSBmOTc0MzQ1NDkxYjQxODkyNjc5NzU1OWFkZjg1M2FhZWRmNjkwZTQ2IE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBQYXVsIEVnZ2VydCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1 PgpEYXRlOiBNb24sIDIgTWF5IDIwMTYgMTA6MDY6MDQgLTA3MDAKU3ViamVjdDogW1BBVENI XSBGaXggcXVvdGluZyBwcm9ibGVtIGluIGNjLWVuZ2luZSBkZWJ1ZyBtZXNzYWdlCk1JTUUt VmVyc2lvbjogMS4wCkNvbnRlbnQtVHlwZTogdGV4dC9wbGFpbjsgY2hhcnNldD1VVEYtOApD b250ZW50LVRyYW5zZmVyLUVuY29kaW5nOiA4Yml0CgoqIGxpc3AvcHJvZ21vZGVzL2NjLWVu Z2luZS5lbCAoYy1yZXBsYXktcGFyc2Utc3RhdGUtc3RhdGUpOgpVc2UgIiVzIiBmb3JtYXQg dG8gcGFzcyB0aHJvdWdoIOKAmCfigJkgdW5zY2F0aGVkIChCdWcjMjM0MjUpLCBhbmQKbGlr ZXdpc2UgZm9yIOKAmGDigJksIGFuZCDigJgl4oCZLgotLS0KIGxpc3AvcHJvZ21vZGVzL2Nj LWVuZ2luZS5lbCB8IDIgKy0KIDEgZmlsZSBjaGFuZ2VkLCAxIGluc2VydGlvbigrKSwgMSBk ZWxldGlvbigtKQoKZGlmZiAtLWdpdCBhL2xpc3AvcHJvZ21vZGVzL2NjLWVuZ2luZS5lbCBi L2xpc3AvcHJvZ21vZGVzL2NjLWVuZ2luZS5lbAppbmRleCAyMDEwNTE1Li5lYjAxNWFjIDEw MDY0NAotLS0gYS9saXNwL3Byb2dtb2Rlcy9jYy1lbmdpbmUuZWwKKysrIGIvbGlzcC9wcm9n bW9kZXMvY2MtZW5naW5lLmVsCkBAIC0zNDk4LDcgKzM0OTgsNyBAQCBjLXJlY29yZC1wYXJz ZS1zdGF0ZS1zdGF0ZQogCSAgIGMtc3RhdGUtb2xkLWNwcC1lbmQKIAkgICBjLXBhcnNlLXN0 YXRlLXBvaW50KSkpKQogKGRlZnVuIGMtcmVwbGF5LXBhcnNlLXN0YXRlLXN0YXRlICgpCi0g IChtZXNzYWdlCisgIChtZXNzYWdlICIlcyIKICAgIChjb25jYXQgIihzZXRxICIKICAgICAo bWFwY29uY2F0CiAgICAgIChsYW1iZGEgKGFyZykKLS0gCjIuNS41Cgo= --------------21BF4D5849CA59E7CC5093C3-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 02 15:39:34 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2016 19:39:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34200 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axJgr-0004hW-PU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 15:39:34 -0400 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:57235) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axJgp-0004hN-UK for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 May 2016 15:39:32 -0400 Received: (qmail 80146 invoked by uid 3782); 2 May 2016 19:39:30 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548A435F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.138.67.95]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 02 May 2016 21:39:29 +0200 Received: (qmail 6912 invoked by uid 1000); 2 May 2016 19:10:31 -0000 Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 19:10:31 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, Paul. On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 10:53:59AM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > (message "%s" M) is the usual way to output a message M without > formatting it, and something like this is needed anyway if M might > contain %. That is the case for a string that might contain percent characters. It is not the case for a string known to be without percents. > Accordingly, I installed the attached patch into the emacs-25 > branch and merged the result to master. That is merely tinkering with the symptoms of the problem. The actual problem is that `message' corrupts strings. > I had already adjusted some other instances of calls to ‘message’ (to > fix problems with % as well as with quotes) but missed this call; > sorry about that. There was nothing wrong with `c-replay-parse-state-state'; it used `message' as documented. Your change implies that your workaround for `message''s problems is instead to write something like: (message "%s" (format "......." .....)) , which is ridiculous. > The behavior of ‘message’ is documented in the manual, in doc strings, It is not. There is no mention of its corruption of quotes in `messages''s doc string. In the Elisp manual there is just the following obscure, and somewhat patronising, paragraph: In a format string containing single quotes, curved quotes `like this' and grave quotes `like this' work better than straight quotes 'like this', as `message' typically formats every straight quote as a curved closing quote. Curved quotes do not "work better" than straight quotes, as my experience this afternoon demonstrates. Why are readers insulted with "formats"? There is no "formatting" going on here; instead some characters are being expunged, and substituted by other characters. Why is the most important idea in that paragraph, this substitution, slid in as though it was a totally natural thing to do, scarcely worth a mention? Why is there no clear definition of what is meant by the confusing terms "single quotes", "grave quotes", and "straight quotes"? It appears to me that these substitutions are only done on pairs of quote marks, not single quotes. If I'm right, why is this not documented? Why is there no mention of `text-quoting-style' on this page? How do I configure my Emacs so that `message' behaves properly? Properly, for me, means that it handles percent escape sequences, AND OTHERWISE LEAVES THE STRING UNCHANGED. Why is this information not in the manual and the doc string? > and the quoting change in Emacs 25 is documented in etc/NEWS, so it is > not a bug per se. Why is it not in the section "incompatible Lisp changes"? How do I restore the old behaviour of `message'? This information surely belongs in etc/NEWS. As far as I can make out, there is no setting of `text-quoting-style' equivalent to "do nothing". Why not? Not everybody want to "text-quote". Over the months, I've lost a ridiculously large amount of time to these curly quotes. I never want to see them again (even though I'm forced to in precompiled info files). Please document how to expunge them. Can we please fix this before Emacs 25.1 gets released? Otherwise these problems will impact LOTS of users. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 11:18:12 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 15:18:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35497 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axc5T-0006rj-Jq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 11:18:12 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:57244) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axc5Q-0006rU-EJ for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 11:18:09 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33D7161272; Tue, 3 May 2016 08:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id SJJQ9DSww-kx; Tue, 3 May 2016 08:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2197161274; Tue, 3 May 2016 08:18:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id XQJSD-W7LULf; Tue, 3 May 2016 08:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7F61A16126E; Tue, 3 May 2016 08:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <81eee1b9-263b-1516-35c7-a8d9c4e2d81f@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 08:17:56 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------70CA95D1F5A5E085A9AE3CA0" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------70CA95D1F5A5E085A9AE3CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 05/02/2016 12:10 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > >> (message "%s" M) is the usual way to output a message M without >> formatting it, and something like this is needed anyway if M might >> contain %. > That is the case for a string that might contain percent characters. It > is not the case for a string known to be without percents. Sure, but the most common problem here is using (message M) to output an arbitrary string M that is under user control, which is why the advice about (message "%s" M) is helpful. This advice works for all format directives, not just % directives. > There is no mention of its corruption of quotes in > `messages''s doc string. Thanks, good point. I fixed it by installing the attached patch, which should address the other documentation problems you mention too. > It appears to me that these substitutions are only done on pairs of > quote marks, not single quotes. What gives you that impression? Substitutions are done on all quotes, not just paired quotes. > Properly, for me, means that it handles percent escape sequences, AND > OTHERWISE LEAVES THE STRING UNCHANGED. This alternative was considered when designing text-quoting-style, but at the time we didn't see a need for the extra complexity. The particular glitch you ran into is not a strong argument for revisiting this now. > Why is it not in the section "incompatible Lisp changes"? 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Tue, 03 May 2016 11:38:33 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35022) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axcP9-0007Lo-8V for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 11:38:31 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axcOu-0004xi-HH for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 11:38:22 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:54091) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axcOu-0004wY-Ea; Tue, 03 May 2016 11:38:16 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4531 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axcOo-000190-8k; Tue, 03 May 2016 11:38:10 -0400 Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 18:38:16 +0300 Message-Id: <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Mon, 2 May 2016 19:10:31 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 19:10:31 +0000 > From: Alan Mackenzie > Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > Hello, Paul. Hello, Alan. First, I understand your frustration, and I'm sorry you lost time over this issue. This happens sometimes when new developments go against our muscle memory. Having said that... > On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 10:53:59AM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > > (message "%s" M) is the usual way to output a message M without > > formatting it, and something like this is needed anyway if M might > > contain %. > > That is the case for a string that might contain percent characters. It > is not the case for a string known to be without percents. It is now. In general, the first argument of 'message' is not copied to output verbatim, so the advice to use "%s" is a sound one. Especially when you are going to display a string that is produced dynamically, and so you don't have complete control on the result. It's simply dangerous. We just got one more use case in support of that advice. > There was nothing wrong with `c-replay-parse-state-state'; it used > `message' as documented. Your change implies that your workaround for > `message''s problems is instead to write something like: > > (message "%s" (format "......." .....)) > > , which is ridiculous. I don't see it as ridiculous. You'd have similar problems (and use the same solution) if the string produced by 'format' included % characters, right? > In a format string containing single quotes, curved quotes `like > this' and grave quotes `like this' work better than straight > quotes 'like this', as `message' typically formats every straight > quote as a curved closing quote. > [...] > Why is there no clear definition of what is meant by the confusing terms > "single quotes", "grave quotes", and "straight quotes"? Not sure what you mean: AFAICT, the definition is right there in the text you cited. > Why is there no mention of `text-quoting-style' on this page? Because we don't want to advertise it too much. It is supposed to be a kind of "fire escape", not something users must routinely do. If that assumption is wrong, then having this prominently mentioned in the manual will be the least of our troubles. > How do I configure my Emacs so that `message' behaves properly? I urge you not to do that. Because if you do, problems like this one will slip unnoticed, instead of being fixed in the code. > Properly, for me, means that it handles percent escape sequences, AND > OTHERWISE LEAVES THE STRING UNCHANGED. Why is this information not in > the manual and the doc string? AFAICT, 'grave' is that value. And it is documented. > > and the quoting change in Emacs 25 is documented in etc/NEWS, so it is > > not a bug per se. > > Why is it not in the section "incompatible Lisp changes"? Because it isn't. If this is an incompatible change, then every new features that changes behavior is also an incompatible change. > How do I restore the old behaviour of `message'? By setting text-quoting-style. But again, please don't. > Can we please fix this before Emacs 25.1 gets released? What fix would you like to see? I'm not sure I understand. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 12:27:21 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 16:27:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35552 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axdAO-00009Z-UN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:27:21 -0400 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:64813) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axdAM-00009Q-Ka for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:27:19 -0400 Received: (qmail 35825 invoked by uid 3782); 3 May 2016 16:27:17 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548A45E2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.138.69.226]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 03 May 2016 18:27:16 +0200 Received: (qmail 22227 invoked by uid 1000); 3 May 2016 16:27:16 -0000 Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 16:27:16 +0000 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, Eli. On Tue, May 03, 2016 at 06:38:16PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 19:10:31 +0000 > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > Hello, Paul. > Hello, Alan. [ .... ] > > On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 10:53:59AM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > > > (message "%s" M) is the usual way to output a message M without > > > formatting it, and something like this is needed anyway if M might > > > contain %. > > That is the case for a string that might contain percent characters. It > > is not the case for a string known to be without percents. > It is now. In general, the first argument of 'message' is not copied > to output verbatim, so the advice to use "%s" is a sound one. > Especially when you are going to display a string that is produced > dynamically, and so you don't have complete control on the result. > It's simply dangerous. We just got one more use case in support of > that advice. > > There was nothing wrong with `c-replay-parse-state-state'; it used > > `message' as documented. Your change implies that your workaround for > > `message''s problems is instead to write something like: > > (message "%s" (format "......." .....)) > > , which is ridiculous. > I don't see it as ridiculous. You'd have similar problems (and use > the same solution) if the string produced by 'format' included % > characters, right? I suppose so. Have you got anything agains me putting that suggestion into etc/NEWS, in the entry for `message'? > > In a format string containing single quotes, curved quotes `like > > this' and grave quotes `like this' work better than straight > > quotes 'like this', as `message' typically formats every straight > > quote as a curved closing quote. > > [...] > > Why is there no clear definition of what is meant by the confusing terms > > "single quotes", "grave quotes", and "straight quotes"? > Not sure what you mean: AFAICT, the definition is right there in the > text you cited. Only in the form of characters I can't distinguish on my terminal, and couldn't even if they were distinct due to my failing eyesight ;-). And not in the form I would need to be able to program with them, such as their ASCII/UTF-8 codes. > > Why is there no mention of `text-quoting-style' on this page? > Because we don't want to advertise it too much. It is supposed to be > a kind of "fire escape", not something users must routinely do. If > that assumption is wrong, then having this prominently mentioned in > the manual will be the least of our troubles. If I need to output source code using `message', I will need to bind `text-quoting-style' to a sensible value, won't I? That is an argument for full documentation of it. And why is it something that users shouldn't routinely do? Surely it should be a configuration variable. Some people, like me, don't like being lied to by a computer program. > > How do I configure my Emacs so that `message' behaves properly? > I urge you not to do that. Because if you do, problems like this one > will slip unnoticed, instead of being fixed in the code. I'd like it to be fixed in the code. :-) > > Properly, for me, means that it handles percent escape sequences, AND > > OTHERWISE LEAVES THE STRING UNCHANGED. Why is this information not in > > the manual and the doc string? > AFAICT, 'grave' is that value. And it is documented. No, `grave' doesn't work. This changes curly quotes to ASCII quotes, i.e. it distorts the input and loses information. The value wanted, let's call it `leave', would suppress all substitution of quotes. > > > and the quoting change in Emacs 25 is documented in etc/NEWS, so it is > > > not a bug per se. > > Why is it not in the section "incompatible Lisp changes"? > Because it isn't. If this is an incompatible change, then every new > features that changes behavior is also an incompatible change. No. This particular change causes previously working lisp code (such as my function from yesterday) to stop working. > > How do I restore the old behaviour of `message'? > By setting text-quoting-style. But again, please don't. I want my Emacs to deliver messages to me as they were intended by the people who wrote them. I have a visceral disgust of and hate for this distortion of strings caused by this translation of quotes. I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels like this (and indeed, there were snide/sarcastic remarks on this list yesterday in my support). I want to configure my Emacs to work right for me. I don't understand why this isn't intended to be configurable. > > Can we please fix this before Emacs 25.1 gets released? > What fix would you like to see? I'm not sure I understand. I want there to be an additional value `leave' for `text-quoting-style' which would suppress all substitution of quotes. Something like this: diff --git a/lisp/help-fns.el b/lisp/help-fns.el index 6e8a108..b5a2c84 100644 --- a/lisp/help-fns.el +++ b/lisp/help-fns.el @@ -626,7 +626,7 @@ describe-function-1 ;; Avoid asking the user annoying questions if she decides ;; to save the help buffer, when her locale's codeset ;; isn't UTF-8. - (unless (memq text-quoting-style '(straight grave)) + (unless (memq text-quoting-style '(leave straight grave)) (set-buffer-file-coding-system 'utf-8)))))))) ;; Add defaults to `help-fns-describe-function-functions'. diff --git a/src/doc.c b/src/doc.c index 7cdb0d0..b858e64 100644 --- a/src/doc.c +++ b/src/doc.c @@ -704,6 +704,8 @@ text_quoting_style (void) ? default_to_grave_quoting_style () : EQ (Vtext_quoting_style, Qgrave)) return GRAVE_QUOTING_STYLE; + else if (EQ (Vtext_quoting_style, Qleave)) + return LEAVE_QUOTING_STYLE; else if (EQ (Vtext_quoting_style, Qstraight)) return STRAIGHT_QUOTING_STYLE; else @@ -988,7 +990,8 @@ Otherwise, return a new string. */) int ch = STRING_CHAR_AND_LENGTH (strp, len); if ((ch == LEFT_SINGLE_QUOTATION_MARK || ch == RIGHT_SINGLE_QUOTATION_MARK) - && quoting_style != CURVE_QUOTING_STYLE) + && quoting_style != CURVE_QUOTING_STYLE + && quoting_style != LEAVE_QUOTING_STYLE) { *bufp++ = ((ch == LEFT_SINGLE_QUOTATION_MARK && quoting_style == GRAVE_QUOTING_STYLE) @@ -1033,6 +1036,7 @@ void syms_of_doc (void) { DEFSYM (Qfunction_documentation, "function-documentation"); + DEFSYM (Qleave, "leave"); DEFSYM (Qgrave, "grave"); DEFSYM (Qstraight, "straight"); @@ -1046,7 +1050,11 @@ syms_of_doc (void) DEFVAR_LISP ("text-quoting-style", Vtext_quoting_style, doc: /* Style to use for single quotes in help and messages. -Its value should be a symbol. +Its value should be a symbol. It works by substituting certain single +quotes for certain other single quotes. This is done in help output and +`message' output. It is not done in `format'. + +`leave' means do not do any substitutions. `curve' means quote with curved single quotes \\=‘like this\\=’. `straight' means quote with straight apostrophes \\='like this\\='. `grave' means quote with grave accent and apostrophe \\=`like this\\='. diff --git a/src/editfns.c b/src/editfns.c index f0ce4e7..415d3c3 100644 --- a/src/editfns.c +++ b/src/editfns.c @@ -3923,6 +3923,8 @@ styled_format (ptrdiff_t nargs, Lisp_Object *args, bool message) multibyte = true; int quoting_style = message ? text_quoting_style () : -1; + if (quoting_style == LEAVE_QUOTING_STYLE) + quoting_style = -1; /* If we start out planning a unibyte result, then discover it has to be multibyte, we jump back to retry. */ diff --git a/src/lisp.h b/src/lisp.h index 6a98adb..6a53671 100644 --- a/src/lisp.h +++ b/src/lisp.h @@ -4183,6 +4183,9 @@ extern void syms_of_callproc (void); /* Defined in doc.c. */ enum text_quoting_style { + /* Leave quotes unchanged. */ + LEAVE_QUOTING_STYLE, + /* Use curved single quotes ‘like this’. */ CURVE_QUOTING_STYLE, > Thanks. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 12:36:31 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 16:36:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35561 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axdJH-0000Nc-9g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:36:31 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:34836) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axdJE-0000NP-Bp for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:36:29 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u43GaEhj002401 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 3 May 2016 16:36:15 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u43GaDTx024152 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 3 May 2016 16:36:13 GMT Received: from abhmp0017.oracle.com (abhmp0017.oracle.com [141.146.116.23]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u43GaBhf030702; Tue, 3 May 2016 16:36:12 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6c5330fa-c357-43db-a670-ff026a210074@default> Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 09:36:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Paul Eggert , Alan Mackenzie Subject: RE: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <81eee1b9-263b-1516-35c7-a8d9c4e2d81f@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <81eee1b9-263b-1516-35c7-a8d9c4e2d81f@cs.ucla.edu> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > we didn't see a need for the extra complexity Talk about the tail wagging the dog! This whole quote-beautification crusade (yes, the term is appropriate) has been a huge boatload of extra complexity. And it's not even clear that we've seen the end of it. Sure, I know the mantra: "That ship has already sailed" ("Shut up and color= "). This particular ship is a gigantic barge of sludge, and it seems it's trying to plod through ice fields. Global warming to the rescue? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 12:56:05 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 16:56:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35573 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axdcC-0000pL-NO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:56:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:37996) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axdcA-0000os-J6 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:56:02 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axdbv-0000Bv-4S for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:55:54 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:55607) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axdbv-000093-05; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:55:47 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4651 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axdbo-0001f4-Fh; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:55:41 -0400 Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 19:55:45 +0300 Message-Id: <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Tue, 3 May 2016 16:27:16 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 16:27:16 +0000 > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > > (message "%s" (format "......." .....)) > > > > , which is ridiculous. > > > I don't see it as ridiculous. You'd have similar problems (and use > > the same solution) if the string produced by 'format' included % > > characters, right? > > I suppose so. Have you got anything agains me putting that suggestion > into etc/NEWS, in the entry for `message'? No, I have nothing against that. > > > In a format string containing single quotes, curved quotes `like > > > this' and grave quotes `like this' work better than straight > > > quotes 'like this', as `message' typically formats every straight > > > quote as a curved closing quote. > > > [...] > > > Why is there no clear definition of what is meant by the confusing terms > > > "single quotes", "grave quotes", and "straight quotes"? > > > Not sure what you mean: AFAICT, the definition is right there in the > > text you cited. > > Only in the form of characters I can't distinguish on my terminal, and > couldn't even if they were distinct due to my failing eyesight ;-). And > not in the form I would need to be able to program with them, such as > their ASCII/UTF-8 codes. Well, a picture is worth about a thousand words. I very much doubt one could explain that clearly enough, if we assume the characters are not displayed correctly and that the user isn't already familiar with the terminology. How do you "define" character by just talking about them, without showing their glyphs?? > > > Why is there no mention of `text-quoting-style' on this page? > > > Because we don't want to advertise it too much. It is supposed to be > > a kind of "fire escape", not something users must routinely do. If > > that assumption is wrong, then having this prominently mentioned in > > the manual will be the least of our troubles. > > If I need to output source code using `message', I will need to bind > `text-quoting-style' to a sensible value, won't I? No, you just need to use "%s" as the first argument, that's all. > And why is it something that users shouldn't routinely do? Because the theory behind this change is that everyone will want that, certainly after they get used to it a little. If that theory is wrong, we will have to change much more than just document that variable or teach users to use it more. > Surely it should be a configuration variable. Some people, like me, > don't like being lied to by a computer program. You are not being lied to. Just think of ` and ' as yet another format specifier character, not unlike %. > > > How do I configure my Emacs so that `message' behaves properly? > > > I urge you not to do that. Because if you do, problems like this one > > will slip unnoticed, instead of being fixed in the code. > > I'd like it to be fixed in the code. :-) You mean, disable the conversion? Not going to happen before 25.1, and unless there's a user outcry, not going to happen, period. That's why I think we should use the default, and find and fix any leftovers like the one which started this discussion. > > > Properly, for me, means that it handles percent escape sequences, AND > > > OTHERWISE LEAVES THE STRING UNCHANGED. Why is this information not in > > > the manual and the doc string? > > > AFAICT, 'grave' is that value. And it is documented. > > No, `grave' doesn't work. This changes curly quotes to ASCII quotes, i.e. > it distorts the input and loses information. ??? Are we talking about the same issue? emacs -Q M-: (setq text-quoting-style 'grave) RET M-: (message "`this'") RET => `this' What am I missing? > > > Why is it not in the section "incompatible Lisp changes"? > > > Because it isn't. If this is an incompatible change, then every new > > features that changes behavior is also an incompatible change. > > No. This particular change causes previously working lisp code (such as > my function from yesterday) to stop working. Like any other change can. > > > How do I restore the old behaviour of `message'? > > > By setting text-quoting-style. But again, please don't. > > I want my Emacs to deliver messages to me as they were intended by the > people who wrote them. I have a visceral disgust of and hate for this > distortion of strings caused by this translation of quotes. I'm sure I'm > not the only person who feels like this (and indeed, there were > snide/sarcastic remarks on this list yesterday in my support). You are not just anyone. You are a core developer and a maintainer of several important packages. That is a responsibility that places an onus on us to "suffer" a little so that bugs will be detected and fixed sooner rather than latter. In general, developers should try using as many defaults as they can, for that very reason -- to see the problems that users will as soon as possible. If you still don't want that, I cannot force you. It's just that there's so few of us that every single one counts. > > > Can we please fix this before Emacs 25.1 gets released? > > > What fix would you like to see? I'm not sure I understand. > > I want there to be an additional value `leave' for `text-quoting-style' > which would suppress all substitution of quotes. See above: I'm missing something here, because I don't understand why is that needed. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 13:00:00 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 17:00:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35581 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axdg0-0000v5-M0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 13:00:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:40444) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axdfy-0000ur-Uv for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:59:59 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axdfl-0002rP-CC for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:59:51 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:55681) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axdfl-0002pD-9B; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:59:45 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4663 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axdfd-0002F6-VW; Tue, 03 May 2016 12:59:38 -0400 Date: Tue, 03 May 2016 19:59:43 +0300 Message-Id: <83y47rjcw0.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <6c5330fa-c357-43db-a670-ff026a210074@default> (message from Drew Adams on Tue, 3 May 2016 09:36:10 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <81eee1b9-263b-1516-35c7-a8d9c4e2d81f@cs.ucla.edu> <6c5330fa-c357-43db-a670-ff026a210074@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: acm@muc.de, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 09:36:10 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > > we didn't see a need for the extra complexity > > Talk about the tail wagging the dog! This whole quote-beautification > crusade (yes, the term is appropriate) has been a huge boatload of > extra complexity. And it's not even clear that we've seen the end of it. > > Sure, I know the mantra: "That ship has already sailed" ("Shut up and color"). > > This particular ship is a gigantic barge of sludge, and it seems it's > trying to plod through ice fields. Global warming to the rescue? Please drop the attitude. This isn't helping a bit. It does waste precious time and bandwidth. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 16:03:35 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 20:03:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35739 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axgXf-0007BT-B6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 16:03:35 -0400 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:41302) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axgXc-0007BK-TE for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 16:03:33 -0400 Received: (qmail 90002 invoked by uid 3782); 3 May 2016 20:03:31 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548A45E2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.138.69.226]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 03 May 2016 22:03:30 +0200 Received: (qmail 23431 invoked by uid 1000); 3 May 2016 20:03:30 -0000 Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:03:30 +0000 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, Eli. On Tue, May 03, 2016 at 07:55:45PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 16:27:16 +0000 > > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > I suppose so. Have you got anything agains me putting that > > suggestion [ the trick of using `format' inside `message] into > > etc/NEWS, in the entry for `message'? > No, I have nothing against that. OK, I'll do that later. > > > Not sure what you mean: AFAICT, the definition is right there in the > > > text you cited. > > Only in the form of characters I can't distinguish on my terminal, and > > couldn't even if they were distinct due to my failing eyesight ;-). And > > not in the form I would need to be able to program with them, such as > > their ASCII/UTF-8 codes. > Well, a picture is worth about a thousand words. I very much doubt > one could explain that clearly enough, if we assume the characters are > not displayed correctly and that the user isn't already familiar with > the terminology. How do you "define" character by just talking about > them, without showing their glyphs?? This isn't simple. I think what's needed is a clear explanation of the conversion process, not merely the result of using it - I'm still a little confused over whether a left ASCII quote (`) might get converted into a right ASCII or curly quote. (A little later - yes it can happen) I don't think that is clearly documented anywhere. > > > > Why is there no mention of `text-quoting-style' on this page? > > > Because we don't want to advertise it too much. It is supposed to be > > > a kind of "fire escape", not something users must routinely do. If > > > that assumption is wrong, then having this prominently mentioned in > > > the manual will be the least of our troubles. > > And why is it something that users shouldn't routinely do? > Because the theory behind this change is that everyone will want that, > certainly after they get used to it a little. That seems a very strange attitude from an Emacs developer - that one developer's personal preferences should be imposed on all Emacs users without the possibility of disabling by configuration. It is quite clear from posts in emacs-devel and bug-gnu-emacs over the last year or so that NOT EVERYBODY wants these curly quote changes. Far from it. Just like not everybody wants light text on a dark background, or (thinking back to Emacs 21) not everybody wants fringes on their GUI screen. Users were complaining for years about the unconfigurable fringes, until Emacs 22 was released. > If that theory is wrong, we will have to change much more than just > document that variable or teach users to use it more. That theory _is_ wrong, certainly amongst Emacs developers. Even in this bug thread, two other people have expressed negative sentiments about this matter. > > Surely it should be a configuration variable. Some people, like me, > > don't like being lied to by a computer program. > You are not being lied to. Just think of ` and ' as yet another > format specifier character, not unlike %. They're not - they're literal characters. The quote which should have been output yesterday afternoon, but got corrupted, was certainly a literal quote. > > > I urge you not to do that. Because if you do, problems like this one > > > will slip unnoticed, instead of being fixed in the code. > > I'd like it to be fixed in the code. :-) > You mean, disable the conversion? Not going to happen before 25.1, > and unless there's a user outcry, not going to happen, period. No, I mean make this conversion optional and configurable, as in the patch in my last post. > That's why I think we should use the default, and find and fix any > leftovers like the one which started this discussion. This particular default just makes me too angry to get work done. I'm still using 24.5. After becoming tired out in the fight over curly quotes last summer/autumn, I just left that task to other people. I assumed that the matter of curly quotes had been sorted out satisfactorally. [ .... ] > > No, `grave' doesn't work. This changes curly quotes to ASCII quotes, i.e. > > it distorts the input and loses information. > ??? Are we talking about the same issue? > emacs -Q > M-: (setq text-quoting-style 'grave) RET > M-: (message "`this'") RET => `this' > What am I missing? That in that scenario, (message "`this'") ; with curly quotes gets converted to "`this'" ; with ASCII quotes. This is not wanted. [ .... ] > > > > Can we please fix this before Emacs 25.1 gets released? > > > What fix would you like to see? I'm not sure I understand. > > I want there to be an additional value `leave' for `text-quoting-style' > > which would suppress all substitution of quotes. > See above: I'm missing something here, because I don't understand why > is that needed. Backwards compatibility, perhaps? Another reason is the difficulty of discovering from the available documentation, which is not concise and coherent[*], precisely what the quote substitution does. At least on disabling the substitution, you know where you stand. [*] There is nowhere any text like "when `message' runs, it subtitutes ASCII and curly quotes as follow: ....". -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 03 16:49:35 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2016 20:49:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35846 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axhGA-0003Gy-Vl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 16:49:35 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:58198) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axhG9-0003Gk-39 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 May 2016 16:49:33 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 436E71609A8; Tue, 3 May 2016 13:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id yg157JqdKJkp; Tue, 3 May 2016 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD4F16120A; Tue, 3 May 2016 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id dDoLGCv4Hj42; Tue, 3 May 2016 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 44DF91609A8; Tue, 3 May 2016 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie , Eli Zaretskii References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <141897a1-c2c0-0143-515b-29f12f0160e7@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 13:49:26 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------49A9375CA2B397BBA0817732" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------49A9375CA2B397BBA0817732 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 05/03/2016 01:03 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > On Tue, May 03, 2016 at 07:55:45PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> No, I have nothing against that. > OK, I'll do that later. I gave this a shot by installing the attached; please feel free to=20 improve it. > I'm still a > little confused over whether a left ASCII quote (`) might get converted > into a right ASCII or curly quote. Grave accent (`) might be left alone or converted to apostrophe (') or=20 converted to left single quotation mark (=E2=80=98), depending on whether= =20 text-quoting-style is =E2=80=98grave=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98straight=E2=80=99= , or =E2=80=98curve=E2=80=99, respectively.=20 Grave accent is never converted to right single quotation mark (=E2=80=99= ). > I mean make this conversion optional and configurable, as in the > patch in my last post. This conversion already configurable, in the sense that one can use=20 either (setq text-quoting-style 'grave) or (setq text-quoting-style=20 'straight) to get behavior that would have worked for the use case that=20 prompted this bug report. I haven't seen a realistic use case to=20 motivate the proposed extra complexity of another configuration option he= re. > I don't think that is clearly documented anywhere. The current version of the documentation says the following. If this is=20 not clear enough, we should improve it so that it is clear. @item =E2=80=98 @itemx ` (left single quotation mark and grave accent) both stand for a left quote= . This generates a left single quotation mark, an apostrophe, or a grave accent depending on the value of @code{text-quoting-style}. @item =E2=80=99 @itemx ' (right single quotation mark and apostrophe) both stand for a right quote= . This generates a right single quotation mark or an apostrophe depending on the value of @code{text-quoting-style}. ... @defvar text-quoting-style @cindex curved quotes @cindex curly quotes The value of this variable is a symbol that specifies the style Emacs should use for single quotes in the wording of help and messages. If the variable's value is @code{curve}, the style is @t{=E2=80=98like this=E2=80=99} with curved single quotes. If the value = is @code{straight}, the style is @t{'like this'} with straight apostrophes. If the value is @code{grave}, the style is @t{`like this'} with grave accent and apostrophe, the standard style before Emacs version 25. The default value @code{nil} acts like @code{curve} if curved single quotes are displayable, and like @code{grave} otherwise. --------------49A9375CA2B397BBA0817732 Content-Type: application/x-patch; name="0001-etc-NEWS-Mention-message-s-format.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-etc-NEWS-Mention-message-s-format.patch" RnJvbSA1MmY4NmE3NTViMGJlZmI2YWQyYTI2YmRiNGVkYzQ2ZTIxNTJiNTkzIE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBQYXVsIEVnZ2VydCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1 PgpEYXRlOiBUdWUsIDMgTWF5IDIwMTYgMTM6MzA6MjEgLTA3MDAKU3ViamVjdDogW1BBVENI XSAqIGV0Yy9ORVdTOiBNZW50aW9uIChtZXNzYWdlICIlcyIgKGZvcm1hdCAuLi4pKS4KCi0t LQogZXRjL05FV1MgfCAzICsrLQogMSBmaWxlIGNoYW5nZWQsIDIgaW5zZXJ0aW9ucygrKSwg MSBkZWxldGlvbigtKQoKZGlmZiAtLWdpdCBhL2V0Yy9ORVdTIGIvZXRjL05FV1MKaW5kZXgg YjVkMmI0NC4uMjFlYmJhNSAxMDA2NDQKLS0tIGEvZXRjL05FV1MKKysrIGIvZXRjL05FV1MK QEAgLTE0ODcsNyArMTQ4Nyw4IEBAIGJlZm9yZSwgY2hhcmFjdGVycyBwcmVjZWRlZCBieSBc PSBhcmUgb3V0cHV0IGFzLWlzLgogVGhleSB1c2UgdGhlIG5ldyAnZm9ybWF0LW1lc3NhZ2Un IGZ1bmN0aW9uIGluc3RlYWQgb2YgcGxhaW4gJ2Zvcm1hdCcsCiBzbyB0aGF0IHRoZXkgbm93 IGZvbGxvdyB1c2VyIHByZWZlcmVuY2UgYXMgcGVyICd0ZXh0LXF1b3Rpbmctc3R5bGUnCiB3 aGVuIHByb2Nlc3NpbmcgY3VydmVkIHNpbmdsZSBxdW90ZXMsIGdyYXZlIGFjY2VudHMsIGFu ZCBhcG9zdHJvcGhlcwotaW4gdGhlaXIgZm9ybWF0IGFyZ3VtZW50LgoraW4gdGhlaXIgZm9y bWF0IGFyZ3VtZW50LiAgVG8gcHJvY2VzcyAlIGRpcmVjdGl2ZXMgYnV0IG5vdCBxdW90ZXMs IHlvdQorY2FuIHVzZSBjYWxscyBsaWtlIChtZXNzYWdlICIlcyIgKGZvcm1hdCBGT1JNQVQg QVJHMSAuLi4gQVJHbikpLgogCiArKysKICoqIFRoZSBjaGFyYWN0ZXIgY2xhc3NlcyBbOmFs cGhhOl0gYW5kIFs6YWxudW06XSBpbiByZWd1bGFyIGV4cHJlc3Npb25zCi0tIAoyLjUuNQoK --------------49A9375CA2B397BBA0817732-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 11:33:05 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 15:33:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37915 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axynR-0004lq-JN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:33:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:59301) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axynQ-0004lN-29 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:33:04 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axyn0-00045o-97 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:32:55 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:50389) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1axyn0-00043d-5w; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:32:38 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2205 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1axymt-0003N3-O2; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:32:32 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 18:32:40 +0300 Message-Id: <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Tue, 3 May 2016 20:03:30 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:03:30 +0000 > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > > And why is it something that users shouldn't routinely do? > > > Because the theory behind this change is that everyone will want that, > > certainly after they get used to it a little. > > That seems a very strange attitude from an Emacs developer - that one > developer's personal preferences should be imposed on all Emacs users > without the possibility of disabling by configuration. > > It is quite clear from posts in emacs-devel and bug-gnu-emacs over the > last year or so that NOT EVERYBODY wants these curly quote changes. Far > from it. Just like not everybody wants light text on a dark background, > or (thinking back to Emacs 21) not everybody wants fringes on their GUI > screen. Users were complaining for years about the unconfigurable > fringes, until Emacs 22 was released. This is unfair on so many levels, that I simply lost any motivation to continue this discussion. > > If that theory is wrong, we will have to change much more than just > > document that variable or teach users to use it more. > > That theory _is_ wrong, certainly amongst Emacs developers. Even in this > bug thread, two other people have expressed negative sentiments about > this matter. So we have 3 people against that. Is it really enough? > > > Surely it should be a configuration variable. Some people, like me, > > > don't like being lied to by a computer program. > > > You are not being lied to. Just think of ` and ' as yet another > > format specifier character, not unlike %. > > They're not - they're literal characters. So is %. > > emacs -Q > > M-: (setq text-quoting-style 'grave) RET > > M-: (message "`this'") RET => `this' > > > What am I missing? > > That in that scenario, (message "`this'") ; with curly quotes > gets converted to "`this'" ; with ASCII quotes. This is not wanted. Not sure why. But anyway, the change such as what you suggest is too pervasive to install on the emacs-25 branch, unless we want to delay the release. Too bad these issues didn't come up in time. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 12:48:58 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 16:48:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38065 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzyr-0001aZ-Oq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:48:57 -0400 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:20339) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1axzym-0001aN-OZ for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:48:56 -0400 Received: (qmail 15990 invoked by uid 3782); 4 May 2016 16:48:50 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FC46556.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.196.101.86]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 04 May 2016 18:48:49 +0200 Received: (qmail 31816 invoked by uid 1000); 4 May 2016 16:48:49 -0000 Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:48:49 +0000 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Hello, Eli. On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 06:32:40PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 20:03:30 +0000 > > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > > And why is it something that users shouldn't routinely do? > > > Because the theory behind this change is that everyone will want that, > > > certainly after they get used to it a little. [ .... ] > > > If that theory is wrong, we will have to change much more than just > > > document that variable or teach users to use it more. > > That theory _is_ wrong, certainly amongst Emacs developers. Even in this > > bug thread, two other people have expressed negative sentiments about > > this matter. > So we have 3 people against that. Is it really enough? That's three people in this thread. Over the months, more people have expressed unhappinness about curly quotes, in the various ways they have been imposed on us. Yes, I think that is enough. The comments from the other two people have been less than fully respectful, and at least one of them is not known for making snide remarks. What does that tell you? Put frankly, the curly quote stuff was installed into Emacs without there being any consensus in favour of it, and was deliberately done in such a way that it could not be disabled (see below). > > > > Surely it should be a configuration variable. Some people, like me, > > > > don't like being lied to by a computer program. > > > You are not being lied to. Just think of ` and ' as yet another > > > format specifier character, not unlike %. > > They're not - they're literal characters. > So is %. You can escape a % by writing %%. That will consistently be output as %. There is no comparable form of escape for the quote characters. > > > emacs -Q > > > M-: (setq text-quoting-style 'grave) RET > > > M-: (message "`this'") RET => `this' > > > What am I missing? > > That in that scenario, (message "`this'") ; with curly quotes > > gets converted to "`this'" ; with ASCII quotes. This is not wanted. > Not sure why. But anyway, the change such as what you suggest is too > pervasive to install on the emacs-25 branch, unless we want to delay > the release. Too bad these issues didn't come up in time. I brought this matter up in June 2015, immediately after mandatory mangling of quotes was introduced. I installed a patch (52c3946c872c8bd96508f74cdda5cbb90c664306, on 2015-06-18) to make this mangling optional. The very next day, you-know-who effectively reverted this change, under the guise of expanding the choice available, making the mangling mandatory again. I should have fought the issue at the time, but didn't. If it is too late to go into 25.1, can we put a fix into 25.2? And yet again, I suggest `text-quoting-style' should become a configurable option, giving users the ability to chose how THEY want messages to be displayed. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 13:03:58 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 17:03:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38082 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay0DN-0003cq-Rn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 13:03:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:57170) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay0DM-0003ce-HE for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 13:03:56 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay0D7-000534-UB for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 13:03:48 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:52189) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay0D7-00051o-Rr; Wed, 04 May 2016 13:03:41 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2345 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ay0D1-0006Il-FG; Wed, 04 May 2016 13:03:35 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 20:03:43 +0300 Message-Id: <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Wed, 4 May 2016 16:48:49 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:48:49 +0000 > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > > That theory _is_ wrong, certainly amongst Emacs developers. Even in this > > > bug thread, two other people have expressed negative sentiments about > > > this matter. > > > So we have 3 people against that. Is it really enough? > > That's three people in this thread. Over the months, more people have > expressed unhappinness about curly quotes, in the various ways they have > been imposed on us. Yes, I think that is enough. I don't. Please let's wait until 25.1 is released, the only way to change this decision is if we see a lot of complaints about this. > The comments from the other two people have been less than fully > respectful, and at least one of them is not known for making snide > remarks. What does that tell you? That some people don't like this. But we knew that back when it was decided to have this feature. > Put frankly, the curly quote stuff was installed into Emacs without there > being any consensus in favour of it, and was deliberately done in such a > way that it could not be disabled (see below). Not true. If there were no consensus, at least not a wide enough one, this wouldn't have been admitted. The objections were not numerous enough and strong enough to prevent these changes. > > > They're not - they're literal characters. > > > So is %. > > You can escape a % by writing %%. That will consistently be output as %. > There is no comparable form of escape for the quote characters. Yes, there is: use "%s" as the first argument to 'message'. Which is a Good Thing anyway, as we all know. > If it is too late to go into 25.1, can we put a fix into 25.2? I see no reason not to install a change along these lines on master, if the new value is not the default. > And yet again, I suggest `text-quoting-style' should become a > configurable option, giving users the ability to chose how THEY want > messages to be displayed. And I yet again urge you to wait until 25.1 hits the streets, and we see what the Emacs community at large thinks about this. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 13:37:41 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 17:37:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38110 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay0k1-0004Rk-A2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 13:37:41 -0400 Received: from mail-yw0-f176.google.com ([209.85.161.176]:33237) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay0jy-0004RU-VV for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 13:37:39 -0400 Received: by mail-yw0-f176.google.com with SMTP id t10so108261934ywa.0 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nispio-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc; bh=ix/sDRW8HT5yCnegDXxa4Ro5hsbUhPLp6gXswhTe1e0=; b=eQLAG6gIpv7gCnPfPMa3LGQlKm1Cke82LhUXySLRSYOI0vanDHdeyFTQsjBxE0Y9VC XU8KPSvciPSqpxpGNry9FRtCCXDkOPpgGLHphkEdsQ+qfNvxZi+cEhDAXZzMxHm2G3xg Ci2IHZ/QcSXOb+PApeb9wYYiWNBBX/fGaLbBWWyKM/wQjJpxYMoRuyZ1wz2PrdPdf8bL F3KdJDBdSjMri0QfNBWkR/KMZt6whgnF+hHIrVn31X6vHLg/RimdGkK5enwrWDA2oQPL nHnI5oBg1miUvvq6+HMV4taIP/T0TPil70rSI7ewBYRJDAeoUURFnA73GsCrPDrPfbPE 6I+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:reply-to:sender:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=ix/sDRW8HT5yCnegDXxa4Ro5hsbUhPLp6gXswhTe1e0=; b=GTSaMRauwli/tY6omNCkyhh74vISDxYS2T9eWAN2m3K6FtiMmRsHCJURY3Gys7GjMn ehJNrMPxo/R6Bo3/+citMvm8Bjka9dnyadY8XLEWQ3dHkUHeD3LSXz7et27xohmZlBPs b63JBxN3Zc2W9y/tibbJcXaQ+UtYWotCF/4DGWN0h7eDHaZNrmGchZI71kDAk40I/ZLL X+scOnYO00hi6qtgQY/776d26WjM855mNkvVi76jssRmdERDCrtatAAJmmHnRTccaNgW Aoq0j5Yu2BxYD75V0l6fpTEfGKXUzcf/SiOoVwWju1CoxpJSpMK/ryMjIv/RdOeG/mG7 84eA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUNgZB+KF2re5YmN3elM5dRg1AxYK1LcY5rsybxqbBf5/QB+dj2hfFSFRAyN0opOVg/MOl88ZlGx0WuFQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.129.80.11 with SMTP id e11mr6555422ywb.197.1462383453174; Wed, 04 May 2016 10:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.13.216.130 with HTTP; Wed, 4 May 2016 10:37:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [67.128.198.190] In-Reply-To: <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 10:37:33 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: WDeYfu-n55RSUfrfylCYIB6M-P4 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. From: Josh To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: josh+gnu@nispio.net Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> > > That theory _is_ wrong, certainly amongst Emacs developers. Even in this >> > > bug thread, two other people have expressed negative sentiments about >> > > this matter. >> >> > So we have 3 people against that. Is it really enough? >> >> That's three people in this thread. Over the months, more people have >> expressed unhappinness about curly quotes, in the various ways they have >> been imposed on us. Yes, I think that is enough. > > I don't. Please let's wait until 25.1 is released, the only way to > change this decision is if we see a lot of complaints about this. And how do you expect to receive that feedback? Through bug reports? Can I file mine now instead of waiting for the release of 25.1? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 14:04:22 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 18:04:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38142 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay19q-00055W-L7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:04:22 -0400 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:33517) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay19o-00055L-B2 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:04:21 -0400 Received: (qmail 34051 invoked by uid 3782); 4 May 2016 18:04:18 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FC46556.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.196.101.86]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 04 May 2016 20:04:18 +0200 Received: (qmail 32114 invoked by uid 1000); 4 May 2016 18:04:17 -0000 Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 18:04:17 +0000 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Hello, Eli. On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 08:03:43PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:48:49 +0000 > > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > > That theory _is_ wrong, certainly amongst Emacs developers. Even in this > > > > bug thread, two other people have expressed negative sentiments about > > > > this matter. > > > So we have 3 people against that. Is it really enough? > > That's three people in this thread. Over the months, more people have > > expressed unhappinness about curly quotes, in the various ways they have > > been imposed on us. Yes, I think that is enough. > I don't. Please let's wait until 25.1 is released, the only way to > change this decision is if we see a lot of complaints about this. There won't be lots of complaints about this. There will be a few people who notice, and some of them will utterly hate it, just as I do. Some will have their Lisp rendered unworkable, just as happened to me. There are thousands of options in Emacs, and most users care about only a small subset (although the subset is different for each user). You could remove any option, no matter how "important", and you'd get only a small number of complaints. This doesn't seem to me like the way to judge things. > > The comments from the other two people have been less than fully > > respectful, and at least one of them is not known for making snide > > remarks. What does that tell you? > That some people don't like this. But we knew that back when it was > decided to have this feature. And when was this decision taken? The answer is it wasn't. Despite the great opposition to it, Paul plowed ahead with several varied schemes for curly quotes, not waiting for consensus first, and in the end, people just got tired of opposing him. > > Put frankly, the curly quote stuff was installed into Emacs without there > > being any consensus in favour of it, and was deliberately done in such a > > way that it could not be disabled (see below). > Not true. If there were no consensus, at least not a wide enough one, > this wouldn't have been admitted. That's not the way the Emacs project works. Most contributors work on a cooperative basis and first discuss contentious things and abide by understandings reached. You and I certainly do. That leaves us open to abuse by aggressive committers, who don't abide by the above convention. This is what happened with curly quotes. There is nobody in the project who feels empowered to revert "premature" commits. > The objections were not numerous enough and strong enough to prevent > these changes. The objections to curly quotes were extremely numerous (I've spent some time today looking at old threads), and support for them was sparse. [ .... ] > > If it is too late to go into 25.1, can we put a fix into 25.2? > I see no reason not to install a change along these lines on master, > if the new value is not the default. We'll see what we can manage. > > And yet again, I suggest `text-quoting-style' should become a > > configurable option, giving users the ability to chose how THEY want > > messages to be displayed. > And I yet again urge you to wait until 25.1 hits the streets, and we > see what the Emacs community at large thinks about this. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 14:39:18 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 18:39:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38183 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1hd-0005wg-Un for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:39:18 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:43855) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1hb-0005wQ-Ta for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:39:16 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088B81609A8; Wed, 4 May 2016 11:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id YEKGK_ejFxFx; Wed, 4 May 2016 11:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5323B16120A; Wed, 4 May 2016 11:39:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id cKnAhTOkNBcq; Wed, 4 May 2016 11:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39AFD1609A8; Wed, 4 May 2016 11:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie , Eli Zaretskii References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 11:39:08 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) On 05/04/2016 11:04 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Despite the > great opposition to it, Paul plowed ahead with several varied schemes for > curly quotes, not waiting for consensus first, This misrepresents what happened. I proposed a scheme, got feedback, altered the proposal in response to the feedback, gained general (though not universal) agreement, and got an OK from the maintainer before committing the change. The installed scheme differs quite a bit from my personal preference. Like most compromises it's easy for each of us to find something we dislike about it. I plan to look into the further change you proposed, with an eye toward installing something like it (but I hope simpler) in the master branch. It's a bit late to be fiddling with this sort of thing in the emacs-25 branch, though. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 14:47:17 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 18:47:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38199 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1pN-0007nU-I5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:47:17 -0400 Received: from mail-oi0-f51.google.com ([209.85.218.51]:33039) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1pH-0007ge-QY for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:47:15 -0400 Received: by mail-oi0-f51.google.com with SMTP id v145so76259873oie.0 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:47:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=frmm1sBRWFsM78Rz2DiLAmwxmnisFGsByAwbYz+3rpQ=; b=BQRoQd5HIZesa5YjEuqIQ635A2wyCLlVz1pn0EgIBkerlmJsQxul4nJeJBc5vGZBxW T3JA1Snp37/jUIZRALlc/vhSS+FU9dR2uwnsFfGFLaFbpisWxSHna/JjQ4+gf9SE6VkR xFoGls9O09q4Ndr3+pCZHcQ+bNIA7XxPEFVYcj/9UiBSWhXk0K8ZS5l5VFSqDiccthK7 DTOcyfN2J9A2zuHVxxKM6RWMzsI3XO8aj2/8IExomdzRXJ4tJ6RoEl++fJW78pu/r3aV AzmSlqAfQdAXEVy+cWfk5RzAAaxuWvcB4Vki5TLELMpZZVcf7V+kxWlu3tv53w2a9BT1 CdgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=frmm1sBRWFsM78Rz2DiLAmwxmnisFGsByAwbYz+3rpQ=; b=F8i+GQFQkWBa5276yG1BS8BJsj5EZzsOhIUhooNmhyNb2Ff98TW0Ft6T+ABGTfejKo qItp9Z0i3U+idpYlILamNIlVbkkh9B38N2/XFQ9T7hx73oCNzY8pZClkipFqDMsI8lF2 Sbi4ZskLCVoWBZcfPOd0sEM3DSPEPHTx4M6/obtfgA7Ay5GpxopVtnBVgT00AZuyQGQm /IzjWXq+IF7YdMRkyj1fQCRH0sGGarVPOgJQ0+j+WPCgWCEOg2moBVAPxyzq3kR8Etia UNHvLLHb4QhhPk2GPSC/ctu7UrjJp44bJXbODzLNJkK7/W3pLo5LbiyAYHSARqNA72Df ZozA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXZUEdtXqU92p8vpiYum3lo9y5NMuE5nT28s4+7h4zJu65hqMuP9FMLOvFNnOfm8g== X-Received: by 10.157.10.78 with SMTP id 72mr5393713otg.86.1462387626361; Wed, 04 May 2016 11:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 50sm1802440ote.39.2016.05.04.11.47.03 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 May 2016 11:47:05 -0700 (PDT) From: John Wiegley X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id A27131496BBB7; Wed, 4 May 2016 11:47:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. In-Reply-To: <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 4 May 2016 18:04:17 +0000") Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 11:46:58 -0700 Message-ID: References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.93 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Alan Mackenzie writes: > There won't be lots of complaints about this. There will be a few people = who > notice, and some of them will utterly hate it, just as I do. Some will ha= ve > their Lisp rendered unworkable, just as happened to me. There are thousan= ds > of options in Emacs, and most users care about only a small subset (altho= ugh > the subset is different for each user). You could remove any option, no > matter how "important", and you'd get only a small number of complaints. > This doesn't seem to me like the way to judge things. Hi guys, I appreciate the passion on this issue; I had a feeling this would come up, and I think the reaction is going to be far more widespread than some expec= t. As maintainer, I'll go on record by saying that I very much dislike the new curly quotes logic. After the reactions I've read here, I'm convinced again that a customization option needs to exist in 25.1, so we can easily recomm= end it to people who react as Alan has done. I realize it's harder to take away a defcustom than to promote a defvar, but this is too much of a hot issue to wait an entire release for sufficient bug reports to come in before we act. If we think this reaction is going to be isolated to just a few developers here, I fear we've underestimated the glo= bal capacity for bike-shedding: and nothing says bike-shedding better than a purely aesthetic concern as minor as ' vs. =E2=80=99. In fact, I would like to rip all the curly-quote redisplay logic out of Ema= cs, for several reasons: 1. It achieves nothing technically. Emacs is not a better editor because = of it in any objective way; it is purely an aesthetic change, desired only by those who agree with its aesthetics. 2. It has caused numerous bugs already. 3. It has provoked heated debate many times already. The amount of time lost on emacs-devel to this one issue is an absolute shame. 4. It changes Emacs according to the preferences of specific people, with= out giving others -- in the very spirit of Emacs! -- an option to choose one's desired behavior in the standard fashion. At this point, I cannot undo this feature, since that would destabilize 25.= 1. However, we must have an option to conveniently disable it before the relea= se happens. Of that I am now certain. Would someone be willing to craft a patc= h, please? Lastly, to play devil's advocate: I also recognize, after having written th= is, that I'm something of an "old fogey" in Emacs terms, with a special place f= or ASCII in my heart. It's quite possible that the new-and-coming generation is very fond of Unicode, and they will all love this feature, since it gives Emacs a more modern "feel". For their sake, I'm prepared to wait for the world's judgment before deciding that this feature is entirely terrible. But for the sake of my fellow dinosaurs, I need a way to turn it off! Pleas= e! They are like tiny knives, stabbing at my mind with their Unicode edges; or= a plague of typeset locusts, foretelling the soon-to-come Apostroclypse. I hope we can resolve this discussion with less ire, and more focus on what will make 25.1 a better release. No one is ill-intended here. We just have very different opinions on what looks nice. =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJXKkOiAAoJEMFE2PTxn+YwwY4L/Avw7z86ssKVHS6HAaUfq7+b E0A7TxwUTX8OUQfRTDQ0lkfRanVpeOw3uevlWCdj3jEcxaupBtApYrnhiBDjT/8M v5WkdfN9Mk7iWP5DLva7zvg0/LHtQady6tbDMA8vjONq9bLWw9Z47+bRFGH2f3Vg Ov9FsJ7LaAuYhNQJSax/mmrozrOw8vP9wWKZa+Zn0yEXFY1C94P+oATv1Qbq8MgD 2mi63ksFDCB/tXUdZ8bn9HQ1HdksrVgGN0xwldtfE01wtLXtCxWHhdZLnv2EYhG6 urOclWpTxwFkA2zeyJi8PDuAOk9mFwD76w6AKYppzKc6F3gsqaN8AJ3p/idZNCRJ QXmnKkwkcvccbtG1xNUxAnW0CavJhFnpoKVobLqCHvHvb8OwKyNwqRpckrGoOILo OngVijb+Ea1TtEnc3OTJGp2SZQ+rab00Coh998y84dgZIn1RWWWAEX/vM0460Rxr IC8wBXA3JeToFs/pMNz9Q62eJsQPkZ4A9V6Dg4IDQQ== =uAiK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 14:57:51 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 18:57:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38209 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1za-000867-SG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:57:51 -0400 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:63085) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1zZ-00085y-Cv for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:57:49 -0400 Received: (qmail 43576 invoked by uid 3782); 4 May 2016 18:57:48 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FC46556.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.196.101.86]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 04 May 2016 20:57:47 +0200 Received: (qmail 32261 invoked by uid 1000); 4 May 2016 18:57:46 -0000 Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 18:57:46 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20160504185746.GC31717@acm.fritz.box> References: <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Hello, Paul. On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 11:39:08AM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 05/04/2016 11:04 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > Despite the > > great opposition to it, Paul plowed ahead with several varied schemes for > > curly quotes, not waiting for consensus first, > This misrepresents what happened. You installed your contentious changes without prior discussion on emacs-devel. > I proposed a scheme, .... By which you mean you installed your changes on the master branch. > ... got feedback, altered the proposal in response to the feedback, > gained general (though not universal) agreement, .... It's a pity you didn't attempt to garner that agreement BEFORE installing your changes. That might have saved a lot of bad feeling. > and got an OK from the maintainer before committing the change. The > installed scheme differs quite a bit from my personal preference. Like > most compromises it's easy for each of us to find something we dislike > about it. You'll recall that at one point I installed a quick change to make the translation of quotes optional. Your reaction, the very next day, was to nullify my change, rendering your translations mandatory again. > I plan to look into the further change you proposed, with an eye toward > installing something like it (but I hope simpler) in the master branch. > It's a bit late to be fiddling with this sort of thing in the emacs-25 > branch, though. No, that won't do. By "something like it", you probably mean something that leaves the translation mandatory. Only a facility which allows total disablement will be adequate here. After discussion with Eli, I intend to apply the patch I proposed yesterday, and I'd be much obliged if this time you would allow its intention to survive. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 15:03:01 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 19:03:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38218 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay24b-0001Sr-LB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 15:03:01 -0400 Received: from mail-ob0-f170.google.com ([209.85.214.170]:34669) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay24a-0001SS-Mh for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 15:03:00 -0400 Received: by mail-ob0-f170.google.com with SMTP id dm5so25639981obc.1 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:03:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=5/zFA7bpViI9aNhiTwQRrUHvk1KUubqGeae+emLylaI=; b=VKgppm6L9QaF0nigkZDz2yBwY8OWCGSm3D8++jjMIrMWSvkXbf9p5cnKBPoJ69D0v/ GXQ7WMZJjax56ZpO8nTkhG1RRllPHbcRrBWex790MIErdQ26gTRU3CPZkVeCGXW3a7uI BRBNJavUdC0wXztZ+VbojsElYtgO4K0AmbIpAEgQiIs4YW+L3Fs0zY0rQ0MibKzVYx/h DW89vscF5MESLjVh2SyvtG+PKjIJODSwWHcFGetcD2Kf3RM8Cln4AphBaFaAlqxpGQ8i 34CezWv2jJBms0X3qRxDy8EpQWJpAG37b7+a+mjnLBbocD8OHQztHo160M4N+OB2c4eb XTjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=5/zFA7bpViI9aNhiTwQRrUHvk1KUubqGeae+emLylaI=; b=eWFZ31uDsJ9xaQSU2A6jIVn+h/s8xszySrHKVTkECNDvmBaxdwWsUAMOFm4PstvRcX c/V93poSaRXMLjCua6rqsp8duGFk6uAVLC+LvLB1f/iCO66RQqtTgTudltcT/XsrGJmP JR9lV8X1vxNkub2gIvn4xAdb0Hd6JbC3Gp/Qv9oh6UJBcqbsq9mVudvOP3/lhg4oL2/4 QkUmYMjK/Bgre0er10zH/0kG+SxjqA74b/cUHdkuczP4ZQ5KutdnCJby2NAFFqRfrBlS flm82Gmxnsz4TWqEmvqTdOF4mPTvSTKkBT9PoE55fRcfOAq0/su3hGUdoHcdeet+GjLU 9jBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUKXNSEtNm08o+K6kDMUZc+Xw6ZmnobPSDlwH0TNSmoferqKkrAus53J0xHXxI5PA== X-Received: by 10.182.1.167 with SMTP id 7mr4976736obn.44.1462388575241; Wed, 04 May 2016 12:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o9sm1795217oek.6.2016.05.04.12.02.54 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 May 2016 12:02:54 -0700 (PDT) From: John Wiegley X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 73CBC1496BE6D; Wed, 4 May 2016 12:02:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. In-Reply-To: <20160504185746.GC31717@acm.fritz.box> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 4 May 2016 18:57:46 +0000") Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 12:02:50 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <20160504185746.GC31717@acm.fritz.box> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.93 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Alan Mackenzie writes: >> This misrepresents what happened. > You installed your contentious changes without prior discussion on > emacs-devel. Please, do not let this bug devolve into an argument between volunteers. I cannot conceive of a world in which Paul did any of this maliciously, nor a= m I insensitive to your concerns, Alan. Let's focus on what we're going to do about it now, not what we might have done about it back then. Thanks, =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJXKkdaAAoJEMFE2PTxn+Ywv3EMAKExzldT4Qh2Fa77DnPqqncp R5zDmX/FDJGJ6+7msQ7h/uVSQsjUwdXtOzTM5TRF0z324hICtIU7JNFp2irQS6FY OnepZRFwV5UJgln8EAjrnC+1c/sW8GoDcHlEQr/5VXCCW19bnmTyg1STNrvrt1O3 MHl1XpEmXKGUCF0zfpqCo2SSr9NeG2Croddg0VGD6/XXAqNeXtBCifWNYEiVuH44 lyP3m4Zgs0gFQdLXiNRj07klGU9QiVUoNmNWK7k2ZyreI3DiBTjCdUnf9mPCJQUZ qXDnN/F74euAmujswc3VS2r1GJ7KQRrQdBISp3UDrZNlfMpTGu0kEACg0/UC6WYu UVZigA/dxLsRLaCBUJ+HwFsbJVqUl1asFCtP7/OZOmf4KCbi/jwX3twymmTJoFVx UT9pIyeka2XjKoAaAm5nhccBuNlgZl13HTITxloL+YNFVRgmIMqM4JVcuYLGHQTJ 1EJMWXizQYeI8RY+AVB03hSBMZO9os2KE2/+duPJoA== =IUGJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 15:05:23 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 19:05:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38227 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay26p-0001XR-BI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 15:05:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:32829) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay26n-0001XB-Tf for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 15:05:18 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay26Z-0005DK-GG for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 15:05:09 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:54066) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay26Z-0005BU-Di; Wed, 04 May 2016 15:05:03 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2624 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ay26R-0005pV-Vh; Wed, 04 May 2016 15:04:56 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 22:05:02 +0300 Message-Id: <838tzpiqzl.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: josh+gnu@nispio.net In-reply-to: (message from Josh on Wed, 4 May 2016 10:37:33 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: acm@muc.de, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 10:37:33 -0700 > From: Josh > Cc: Alan Mackenzie , eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > > I don't. Please let's wait until 25.1 is released, the only way to > > change this decision is if we see a lot of complaints about this. > > And how do you expect to receive that feedback? Through bug reports? Yes. Also, through messages on help-gnu-emacs and here. > Can I file mine now instead of waiting for the release of 25.1? Yes, of course. But didn't you do that already? This is the bug report about that very feature. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 15:09:10 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 19:09:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38231 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay2AX-0001dS-Rq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 15:09:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:33879) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay2AV-0001dD-VS for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 15:09:08 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay2AH-0006P3-Bm for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 15:08:59 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:54139) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay2AH-0006OD-8Y; Wed, 04 May 2016 15:08:53 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2630 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ay2AB-0003HL-2g; Wed, 04 May 2016 15:08:47 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 22:08:51 +0300 Message-Id: <8360utiqt8.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Wed, 4 May 2016 18:04:17 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 18:04:17 +0000 > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > I don't. Please let's wait until 25.1 is released, the only way to > > change this decision is if we see a lot of complaints about this. > > There won't be lots of complaints about this. There will be a few people > who notice, and some of them will utterly hate it, just as I do. Some > will have their Lisp rendered unworkable, just as happened to me. There > are thousands of options in Emacs, and most users care about only a small > subset (although the subset is different for each user). You could > remove any option, no matter how "important", and you'd get only a small > number of complaints. This doesn't seem to me like the way to judge > things. I see no other way. > > That some people don't like this. But we knew that back when it was > > decided to have this feature. > > And when was this decision taken? The answer is it wasn't. Despite the > great opposition to it, Paul plowed ahead with several varied schemes for > curly quotes, not waiting for consensus first, and in the end, people > just got tired of opposing him. > > > > Put frankly, the curly quote stuff was installed into Emacs without there > > > being any consensus in favour of it, and was deliberately done in such a > > > way that it could not be disabled (see below). > > > Not true. If there were no consensus, at least not a wide enough one, > > this wouldn't have been admitted. > > That's not the way the Emacs project works. Most contributors work on a > cooperative basis and first discuss contentious things and abide by > understandings reached. You and I certainly do. That leaves us open to > abuse by aggressive committers, who don't abide by the above convention. > This is what happened with curly quotes. There is nobody in the project > who feels empowered to revert "premature" commits. That's not my recollection of how this happened. But the records are all there, so anyone can re-read them and make up their own minds. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 16:23:22 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 20:23:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38302 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay3KL-0006n6-Qh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 16:23:22 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f45.google.com ([74.125.82.45]:35462) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay3KJ-0006mt-V7 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 16:23:20 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f45.google.com with SMTP id e201so202867723wme.0 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 04 May 2016 13:23:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ktv1il8nFXGdeX+dhh0HSZsU3zMPNpL5ZA9LBshgCRo=; b=TuRODOIchvVPxn+mTMbpenSiBRvQTtLxY8VbsN/gx9TuR9WrVI5Jk+8WO0xPGVe8bI p1C2du9BIDzX52ZhGKJ2Z0cdxB96DcDWom/h6OgFhK9bohLLMvJT2BoEmn4uLkgKM0z1 xbRlp0lenGTwEzO4XY+Gi0BnJOieQi9YCTiAZLUey4D0GmjbIfJtkVlyU2Stv6CfRlZL 1+J/Vc4OmcO/3c0a6zhRstLouBKWOJFlrXwa9nfG2+Gvt1hQ1Xx9I3keMXpWWb2y8Req SInlvLf3glemYGZXq+A53Gpod0+yApfbNMJ9OaitOfnNlF2AUpEYdvLqY0UBxs2lmE2y HwPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ktv1il8nFXGdeX+dhh0HSZsU3zMPNpL5ZA9LBshgCRo=; b=E8h0fUexVmBfokyFFvx0EOgE1qgJhPpHLhm99uoV0lx0SVo0xpr1AH+uiMz1H4asV+ USmNjqI0qHMSj0/T+vNkXPS9Z/57tYZQeEY1pyroZ2mMy8rVaRA82Q5StfU+Edn6Dn9h ATqmQe08jLVTPe/Yt0jUNN9PyDrc/1/vMuSAoAgowN1Mgj7AXBOAY1QnBNl1ECAY1jQY wzZWkBvtH9Y+xstUAPKzX3d3H8TosYSSZ4c76Hj2oe2qvocLcEfEP8idS5AB5D16U4T9 OD6OexZ3Q1Yau47GWwRGQcttphniNLUUHHA8Zjs1xyM602d8RCymEyRqrzt15fas655z z5ZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUsOWmZhs30bjnYqfe3GBxPrsX8syfVyAzcrtLzOFwL+krJPPRI76XwF7N94+Pd6Q== X-Received: by 10.194.76.137 with SMTP id k9mr10438437wjw.3.1462393394175; Wed, 04 May 2016 13:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([185.105.175.24]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id ip10sm6065432wjb.33.2016.05.04.13.23.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 04 May 2016 13:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: John Wiegley , Alan Mackenzie References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: <8ac2d87c-7f8f-4370-82bc-77c7dfceb4c5@yandex.ru> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 23:23:11 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 05/04/2016 09:46 PM, John Wiegley wrote: > As maintainer, I'll go on record by saying that I very much dislike the new > curly quotes logic. After the reactions I've read here, I'm convinced again > that a customization option needs to exist in 25.1, so we can easily recommend > it to people who react as Alan has done. This doesn't seem like a good idea to me. If we add a custom option, doesn't that constitute a promise that the curly quote translation *will* work for at least several releases of Emacs after that? Because the option would have a value meaning "translate straight quotes to curlies", and we'll have to support it once the option is introduced. > In fact, I would like to rip all the curly-quote redisplay logic out of Emacs, > for several reasons: I would too (though I wouldn't actually mind it if it were implemented in a very different fashion). But this is a totally different direction from "let's add a user option". I think. > 3. It has provoked heated debate many times already. The amount of time > lost on emacs-devel to this one issue is an absolute shame. Word. > 4. It changes Emacs according to the preferences of specific people, without > giving others -- in the very spirit of Emacs! -- an option to choose > one's desired behavior in the standard fashion. > > At this point, I cannot undo this feature, since that would destabilize 25.1. Can we actually leave it in, while all but promising to take it out in the next release? That would seem like an odd choice. > Lastly, to play devil's advocate: I also recognize, after having written this, > that I'm something of an "old fogey" in Emacs terms, with a special place for > ASCII in my heart. It's quite possible that the new-and-coming generation is > very fond of Unicode, and they will all love this feature, since it gives > Emacs a more modern "feel". For their sake, I'm prepared to wait for the > world's judgment before deciding that this feature is entirely terrible. As a member of a somewhat younger generation, I can say that they look fine in Help buffers, manuals, and so on, although they do not look "modern". The curly single quotes feel more like certain tech in alternative history novels: shiny, could be considered cool in some very specific circles, but nobody uses anything like that in the modern times. I never want to see them in my source code, though, and the benefits, whatever they are, do not justify the increased complexity in the associated facilities. > But for the sake of my fellow dinosaurs, I need a way to turn it off! Please! > They are like tiny knives, stabbing at my mind with their Unicode edges; or a > plague of typeset locusts, foretelling the soon-to-come Apostroclypse. The problem with using the "don't translate at all" option is that it allows you to write code that won't work for other users. For instance, if we had such an option now, Alan wouldn't have found the presently discussed bug. It wouldn't not manifest with his setup, but it would manifest in default Emacs configuration where quote translation is enabled, and the majority of the users would suffer. For that reason only, I'm against having an option like that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 17:34:31 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 21:34:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38387 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay4RD-00006B-Es for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 17:34:31 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:60258) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay4RB-00005t-QE for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 17:34:30 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D11F51601AA; Wed, 4 May 2016 14:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id vCedrcEct1VI; Wed, 4 May 2016 14:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3120216120B; Wed, 4 May 2016 14:34:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id URa4sIcp8fe3; Wed, 4 May 2016 14:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 14E911601AA; Wed, 4 May 2016 14:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie References: <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <20160504185746.GC31717@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <83977072-cb60-f3c0-ac7a-bad6c96493ea@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:34:22 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160504185746.GC31717@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) On 05/04/2016 11:57 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > By "something like it", you probably mean something > that leaves the translation mandatory. No, I mean something that avoids quote translation entirely, just in a simpler way. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 17:49:21 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 21:49:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38404 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay4fZ-0000T4-9v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 17:49:21 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:57541) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay4fX-0000Sw-QT for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 17:49:20 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3r0WsB43nmz3hpMW; Wed, 4 May 2016 23:49:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.68]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3r0Ws96F06zvkG8; Wed, 4 May 2016 23:49:17 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.68]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UNtkHIr_UXKZ; Wed, 4 May 2016 23:49:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Auth-Info: IQ+rcvQfTE0mjUT6t07dq7naKYELE6cNBWqdg/Fz1n45VPC16+ihuqMgpzawk8iI Received: from igel.home (ppp-88-217-8-216.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.8.216]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 4 May 2016 23:49:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8BCCD2C3F3D; Wed, 4 May 2016 23:49:16 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> X-Yow: ..Are we having FUN yet...? Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 23:49:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 04 May 2016 18:32:40 +0300") Message-ID: <87d1p17aub.fsf@linux-m68k.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.93 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> > > Surely it should be a configuration variable. Some people, like me, >> > > don't like being lied to by a computer program. >> >> > You are not being lied to. Just think of ` and ' as yet another >> > format specifier character, not unlike %. >> >> They're not - they're literal characters. > > So is %. % has always been documented as being special. The only special character. Adding more special characters is an incompatible change and breaks existing uses. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 17:50:31 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 21:50:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38415 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay4gg-0000Vc-TM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 17:50:31 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:33501) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay4gf-0000VN-LZ for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 17:50:29 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778CA160195; Wed, 4 May 2016 14:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id v_pcbvB3PX7o; Wed, 4 May 2016 14:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C33C1160FC0; Wed, 4 May 2016 14:50:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id xLWmJvslK3Uz; Wed, 4 May 2016 14:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AB62D160D24; Wed, 4 May 2016 14:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie References: <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <20160504185746.GC31717@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <54082da6-5d45-fc5c-eb76-e79e919597af@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 14:50:21 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160504185746.GC31717@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) On 05/04/2016 11:57 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >> I proposed a scheme, .... > By which you mean you installed your changes on the master branch. > No, I mean that I emailed patches to bug-gnu-emacs, which is the documented way to suggest changes. There was a reasonably lengthy discussion about the patches and I eventually installed into master a patchset that was quite a bit different from what I originally proposed, after getting an OK from Emacs's then-maintainer. At the time I didn't think it was that big a deal: it's just quoting in diagnostics, after all. With the benefit of hindsight I now see that I was mistaken about how strongly some users are attached to quoting `like this'. I am sorry you were not involved earlier, as that would likely have saved us a lot of grief. I am also sorry about the whole misunderstanding and will strive to publicize future changes on emacs-devel more prominently, even changes that I may think are not that important. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 18:06:50 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 22:06:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38429 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay4wU-0000ub-0e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 18:06:50 -0400 Received: from mail.johnwiegley.com ([208.82.103.192]:52987 helo=Hermes.local) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay49Q-00084B-5i for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 17:16:12 -0400 Received: by Hermes.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 954122415C4; Wed, 4 May 2016 14:16:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "John Wiegley" To: Dmitry Gutov Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. In-Reply-To: <8ac2d87c-7f8f-4370-82bc-77c7dfceb4c5@yandex.ru> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Wed, 4 May 2016 23:23:11 +0300") Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 14:15:54 -0700 Message-ID: References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <8ac2d87c-7f8f-4370-82bc-77c7dfceb4c5@yandex.ru> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.93 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 04 May 2016 18:06:48 -0400 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) >>>>> Dmitry Gutov writes: > For instance, if we had such an option now, Alan wouldn't have found the > presently discussed bug. It wouldn't not manifest with his setup, but it > would manifest in default Emacs configuration where quote translation is > enabled, and the majority of the users would suffer. Hmm... these good arguments are getting in the way of my tirade. Alright, I will let this go without a customization option, again. Alan, you can setq `text-quoting-style' for now in your .emacs, although doing so may get in the way of finding more bugs. Let's see what the populace says, and how many pitchforks are raised. It's quite possible we may revert this whole feature in 26, but let's get some genuine public reaction before deciding the matter. Within the Emacs developers, I now see strong votes against, some votes for (are they as strong?), but I still don't know what the World At Large is going to think. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 18:19:59 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 22:19:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38447 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay59D-0001G8-2P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 18:19:59 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:47693) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay59A-0001Fy-Dm for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 18:19:57 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay592-0005zg-I3; Thu, 05 May 2016 00:19:50 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: "John Wiegley" Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <8ac2d87c-7f8f-4370-82bc-77c7dfceb4c5@yandex.ru> Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 00:19:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: (John Wiegley's message of "Wed, 04 May 2016 14:15:54 -0700") Message-ID: <87h9ed1n5o.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) "John Wiegley" writes: > Let's see what the populace says, and how many pitchforks are raised. It's > quite possible we may revert this whole feature in 26, but let's get some > genuine public reaction before deciding the matter. Well, while I don't quite understand the whole "hatin' on quotes" thing, I think Paul's arguments makes sense. But we should document this in a forward-looking manner. We should say that Emacs in the future may do random substitutions of characters in the first string of `message' and `format', and that the only way to get things untranslated is this: (format "%s" foo) And, please, then stick to that, and not start doing at-our-whim translations of the rest of the arguments. :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 04 19:49:23 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 23:49:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38504 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay6Xi-00053y-WC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 19:49:23 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:42147) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay6Xg-00053k-KZ for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 19:49:21 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE583160633; Wed, 4 May 2016 16:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id WFQZQVIwO9se; Wed, 4 May 2016 16:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6938B16120B; Wed, 4 May 2016 16:49:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id poH5Nr2RbrhH; Wed, 4 May 2016 16:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49E23160633; Wed, 4 May 2016 16:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie , Eli Zaretskii References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:49:12 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C8C8849F4CE3D283D86F2980" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C8C8849F4CE3D283D86F2980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 05/04/2016 11:39 AM, Paul Eggert wrote: > > I plan to look into the further change you proposed, with an eye > toward installing something like it (but I hope simpler) Attached is a proposed patch to master to do this. It disables translation from curved quotes, which means that quote translation now affects only ` and ', and it documents that the text-quoting-style 'grave' therefore suppresses all quote translation. 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aXPigJkuICAqLwogICAgIENVUlZFX1FVT1RJTkdfU1RZTEUsCiAKLS0gCjIuNS41Cgo= --------------C8C8849F4CE3D283D86F2980-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 05 03:12:25 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2016 07:12:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38651 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayDSQ-0007DO-0Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 03:12:25 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:35381) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayDSK-0007DC-C1 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 03:12:20 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3r0mLl3FYCz3hl8L; Thu, 5 May 2016 09:12:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.68]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3r0mLk5mJPzvjMl; Thu, 5 May 2016 09:12:14 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.68]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ilqzZb-dCTy2; Thu, 5 May 2016 09:12:10 +0200 (CEST) X-Auth-Info: AhVwzzrrIVC5q7xhbMn06SJkpHkwh+wVwI5OHER/2vrOe9e7lPJIFFAGeqq23CSp Received: from linux.local (ppp-88-217-19-201.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.19.201]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 5 May 2016 09:12:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: by linux.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id C4AE51E538B; Thu, 5 May 2016 09:12:09 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <8ac2d87c-7f8f-4370-82bc-77c7dfceb4c5@yandex.ru> <87h9ed1n5o.fsf@gnus.org> X-Yow: I brought my BOWLING BALL - and some DRUGS!! Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 09:12:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87h9ed1n5o.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Thu, 05 May 2016 00:19:47 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.93 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , John Wiegley , Dmitry Gutov , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Well, while I don't quite understand the whole "hatin' on quotes" thing, > I think Paul's arguments makes sense. But we should document this in a > forward-looking manner. We should say that Emacs in the future may do > random substitutions of characters in the first string of `message' and > `format', and that the only way to get things untranslated is this: > > (format "%s" foo) That makes it impossible to write format strings. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 05 04:06:09 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2016 08:06:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38677 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayEIT-000061-KE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 04:06:09 -0400 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:36659) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayEIS-00005u-F8 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 04:06:09 -0400 Received: (qmail 41092 invoked by uid 3782); 5 May 2016 08:06:07 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C62E6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.98.230]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 05 May 2016 10:06:06 +0200 Received: (qmail 2029 invoked by uid 1000); 5 May 2016 08:06:06 -0000 Date: Thu, 5 May 2016 08:06:06 +0000 To: John Wiegley Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20160505080606.GA1950@acm.fritz.box> References: <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Hello, John. On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 11:46:58AM -0700, John Wiegley wrote: > Hi guys, > I appreciate the passion on this issue; I had a feeling this would come up, > and I think the reaction is going to be far more widespread than some expect. > As maintainer, I'll go on record by saying that I very much dislike the new > curly quotes logic. After the reactions I've read here, I'm convinced again > that a customization option needs to exist in 25.1, so we can easily recommend > it to people who react as Alan has done. :-) [ .... ] > At this point, I cannot undo this feature [translation of single quotes > in help messages and message format strings], since that would > destabilize 25.1. However, we must have an option to conveniently > disable it before the release happens. Of that I am now certain. Would > someone be willing to craft a patch, please? I committed 32f5bf0c29bbad6524f71079e4380b8156289551 to master last night just before I read your post. It adds the value `leave' (as in "leave alone and don't touch") to the set valid in `text-quoting-style'. This might be what you're looking for, or serve as the basis for it. `text-quoting-style' so far remains a mere Lisp variable, not a customisable option. > Lastly, to play devil's advocate: I also recognize, after having written this, > that I'm something of an "old fogey" in Emacs terms, with a special place for > ASCII in my heart. It's quite possible that the new-and-coming generation is > very fond of Unicode, and they will all love this feature, since it gives > Emacs a more modern "feel". For their sake, I'm prepared to wait for the > world's judgment before deciding that this feature is entirely terrible. We old fogies need our tools just as much as the new generations do. [ .... ] > -- > John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F > http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 05 11:51:51 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2016 15:51:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40419 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayLZ8-0006Rp-V1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 11:51:51 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46207) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayLZ7-0006Rd-Sj for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 11:51:50 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ayLYs-0006tZ-UH for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 11:51:41 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:48021) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ayLYs-0006qW-Ri; Thu, 05 May 2016 11:51:34 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3536 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ayLYm-0003gy-O6; Thu, 05 May 2016 11:51:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 18:51:39 +0300 Message-Id: <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Paul Eggert In-reply-to: (message from Paul Eggert on Wed, 4 May 2016 16:49:12 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: acm@muc.de, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:49:12 -0700 > > Attached is a proposed patch to master to do this. It disables > translation from curved quotes, which means that quote translation now > affects only ` and ', and it documents that the text-quoting-style > 'grave' therefore suppresses all quote translation. This shortens the > Emacs source code by forty lines or so, which is a good sign. Sounds good to me, thanks. (I didn't have time to actually try this yet.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 05 13:05:35 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2016 17:05:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40523 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMiU-0008Hx-To for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:05:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:59974) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMiT-0008Hg-Gx for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:05:33 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMiF-0001A5-0Z for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:05:25 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:49327) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMiE-00017W-UF; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:05:18 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3663 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMi6-0001HR-8X; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:05:10 -0400 Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 20:05:21 +0300 Message-Id: <83oa8kh1v2.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Dmitry Gutov In-reply-to: <8ac2d87c-7f8f-4370-82bc-77c7dfceb4c5@yandex.ru> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Wed, 4 May 2016 23:23:11 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <8ac2d87c-7f8f-4370-82bc-77c7dfceb4c5@yandex.ru> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: jwiegley@gmail.com, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 23:23:11 +0300 > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > 4. It changes Emacs according to the preferences of specific people, without > giving others -- in the very spirit of Emacs! -- an option to choose > one's desired behavior in the standard fashion. > > At this point, I cannot undo this feature, since that would destabilize 25.1. > > Can we actually leave it in, while all but promising to take it out in the next release? > > That would seem like an odd choice. I agree: this is not a good idea. If we even suspect we will be taking this out soon, we shouldn't introduce it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 05 13:07:03 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2016 17:07:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40527 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMjv-0008KZ-Ie for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:07:03 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:32895) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMju-0008K4-8t for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:07:02 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMjZ-0002By-My for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:06:54 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:49351) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMjX-00025Z-7S; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:06:41 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3667 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ayMjP-0001Sx-T2; Thu, 05 May 2016 13:06:32 -0400 Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 20:06:43 +0300 Message-Id: <83mvo4h1ss.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: John Wiegley In-reply-to: (message from John Wiegley on Wed, 04 May 2016 11:46:58 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: acm@muc.de, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > From: John Wiegley > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 11:46:58 -0700 > > As maintainer, I'll go on record by saying that I very much dislike the new > curly quotes logic. I'm not a big fan of them, either. But this isn't about mine or yours or Paul's personal preferences. This is about the Emacs users out there. It is claimed that the majority wants these quotes, and that Emacs using `this quoting' is perceived as anything but modern, to put it mildly. There are those who claim the exact opposite: that the majority wants to remain with `this'. I imagine there's also those who don't care much either way, and have not spoken about this. How can we know which way is the truth, except by letting a larger group of users try that? I don't see any other practical way of doing that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 05 19:46:26 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2016 23:46:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40917 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1aySyQ-0001GZ-GH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 19:46:26 -0400 Received: from mail-oi0-f49.google.com ([209.85.218.49]:33211) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1aySyL-0001G5-Mi for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2016 19:46:25 -0400 Received: by mail-oi0-f49.google.com with SMTP id v145so121070235oie.0 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 05 May 2016 16:46:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version; bh=TMcp9GcLGwHFgXIlEIXRe3ajnt6BykQNduN8hpEF2Xk=; b=iAVwaYVSVwPUN8aaTzFvTd/MzEYp/eexLm834JSd96wwTN53v47ge1MUiZmfWHT281 Bh0DXOOcTB88/CINzVJ0R0Tu3qu0EI4e8+9Ph83MlzxexE9uPRhKcozhjFyQz7WOwDsI ZwyKjvbE2JwRi96Thk8YyYYdDTtYILKXWKOwcYovoJD10p/IBdZCWZeo75DsqkXB6vPy Fofy0UdfXcWq9v9/dlZhHrxpIuCzfSEsT6cNy/OU3/0rZZNAH1Ox8I5DBePu3SALGUo3 sf6mQV+V4906cUE+pbQYuaYtVJCgsQ65O1+BlxOSNyC3/6C39FO5THe9pvBFPscdSc0R 4g2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:mime-version; bh=TMcp9GcLGwHFgXIlEIXRe3ajnt6BykQNduN8hpEF2Xk=; b=OZx49I5wPiS5Dw++QxyqsG0qrSLu1RffwyvxpJDwyen6jKnvmZXLAFWoNDWbKD/+8F DNO2iYm8HSSuHVKERdXf9t7auNfIcPk/4Q4/69tV2RWc4kazCEvpQpRP/OWgbZzeFr0F 6XUYyP9JHAALORl0BN5WLT66BZ9RULvhBC7JnGpOHm8tBFD3ei/HXqMIV00sEP5bc1gT p9RL0IxTBkGewZUEvQ6sviWS90SEqww7a7S7utQd2xwPic3R5+91GVc8RvFuQ6OZLLTg lbtE1rLH8vaQKDMmJ9UvrDrbFLwVO/lwAf+gBMm41O/M1xK1sSsiMF+PBQ5N3PttdErp DeJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FU1P5mfpk4mYF9CbSTP3beF9tAnlLiB9w4QFkHq0ynKNWgLsm53Jal21PxJpDJJTg== X-Received: by 10.157.22.230 with SMTP id s35mr7831153ots.22.1462491976288; Thu, 05 May 2016 16:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c9sm3829488oeq.5.2016.05.05.16.46.13 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 05 May 2016 16:46:15 -0700 (PDT) From: John Wiegley X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id A9EE214974032; Thu, 5 May 2016 16:46:12 -0700 (PDT) To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. In-Reply-To: <83mvo4h1ss.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 05 May 2016 20:06:43 +0300") Date: Thu, 05 May 2016 16:46:10 -0700 Message-ID: References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <83mvo4h1ss.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.93 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: acm@muc.de, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > How can we know which way is the truth, except by letting a larger group of > users try that? I don't see any other practical way of doing that. I agree, we'll need to see what the Majority actually thinks, since it's impossible to ask them here. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 06 04:55:00 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 May 2016 08:55:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41119 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1aybXI-0007H7-5p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2016 04:55:00 -0400 Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.29]:37312) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1aybXG-0007Gz-Ej for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 May 2016 04:54:58 -0400 Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC5520A66 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 6 May 2016 04:54:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 06 May 2016 04:54:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=MDZNtyk88oNqRrdACR0+Q84ib5o=; b=PjeTZ Pqwaq0AkcTQA8TcyOhgN7FzlsuPHxdGH7tE8BZetnKyILF6pIjTywidYylecLF/q yGrxlayCJW9pECDqBqJZgQhq4v7ClXL2jkxPSWyN8930gYkMZymB3VyBBfZYd/Md dtfbl7pN3ehUjZ6G7qhEuWmfo6CySNSt175Kqw= X-Sasl-enc: zhfO3no6tkWSxy92pHqVHE8qKqmHP4i16yo9FF6+Igjd 1462524897 Received: from blueberry (brc29-2-88-162-37-238.fbx.proxad.net [88.162.37.238]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4C0FCC00014; Fri, 6 May 2016 04:54:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Nicolas Petton To: Eli Zaretskii , John Wiegley Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. In-Reply-To: <83mvo4h1ss.fsf@gnu.org> References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <83mvo4h1ss.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Notmuch/0.21 (http://notmuchmail.org) Emacs/25.0.92.2 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) Date: Fri, 06 May 2016 10:54:55 +0200 Message-ID: <87bn4jr2g0.fsf@petton.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: acm@muc.de, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Eli Zaretskii writes: >> As maintainer, I'll go on record by saying that I very much dislike the new >> curly quotes logic. > > I'm not a big fan of them, either. Me neither, but... > There are those who claim the exact opposite: that the majority wants > to remain with `this'. I imagine there's also those who don't care > much either way, and have not spoken about this. ... I think most users won't even notice it (as long as it does not appear in source code). In fact, I know several users of Emacs who are using the pretests, and I asked them about this. None of them noticed it until I mentioned it, and then told me they didn't care at all. Nico --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJXLFvfAAoJECM1h6R8IHkQlVYIAI7bFnp3I3fAP8sKAZk6ajbO bKff8UEAS53XqwWVGskBP9Zo0IXgn9bitV5IfMDGgg1x6rAHrpgq8GwiLAQu47I0 FlTmHTZNmQKolGHu4GuNMgwckPsTIyxbat4pUb1HSquCM59x5oNXjCz1GpKfZFY6 o+JO38Ltew8yuJCd0/lnb216Ok25FGLoh1NBo3G2dluEoqYknqFCKX4ZbCnpgVfO F/4mxENtPWs8dXsnVIZPr4ttaNjHEQLyweijiHSJefMrHKa6X5IHSThdnWZzB9n2 Fs1ylI7q0m+yOGTatvX5X4IH8uMzWiO5GvzlRM/+McyR6WP+Ybg6JPjCnRNO354= =HArs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 10 10:42:01 2016 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 May 2016 14:42:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45998 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1b08rJ-0006Oc-B0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2016 10:42:01 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:43154) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1b08rG-0006OJ-PX for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 10 May 2016 10:41:59 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB8416127C; Tue, 10 May 2016 07:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id C_ygnVPs0wJA; Tue, 10 May 2016 07:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F8B161283; Tue, 10 May 2016 07:41:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id oYEsS9pqztiu; Tue, 10 May 2016 07:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 18657161279; Tue, 10 May 2016 07:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Eli Zaretskii References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 07:41:48 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: acm@muc.de, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) On 05/05/2016 08:51 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Sounds good to me, thanks. Thanks, no further comment so I merged it into master. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 30 21:07:11 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 May 2017 01:07:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45975 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dFs6R-0008Ev-O9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 May 2017 21:07:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:48207) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dFs6Q-0008Ek-Uo for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 May 2017 21:07:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dFs6L-0004iW-7U for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 May 2017 21:07:05 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:58387) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dFs6I-0004hk-Ju; Tue, 30 May 2017 21:07:02 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dFs6I-0007gx-0m; Tue, 30 May 2017 21:07:02 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spook: Mexico NASA ARPA Al-Qaeda Brute forcing explosive FAMS X-Ran: Gz^~(LBZD@@z2d~UE+u?jxb~A\j52oP{C9W^,p7^{JB2wpvKxWTc$LM<(L (Paul Eggert's message of "Tue, 10 May 2016 07:41:48 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: acm@muc.de, Eli Zaretskii , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) A year has passed. Is this report still relevant? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 30 21:42:10 2017 Received: (at 23425-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 May 2017 01:42:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45993 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dFseI-0002Pg-0L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 May 2017 21:42:10 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:52434) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dFseF-0002PQ-Sh for 23425-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 May 2017 21:42:08 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B610616008D; Tue, 30 May 2017 18:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id cpM37fZ9DZrE; Tue, 30 May 2017 18:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 107691600A1; Tue, 30 May 2017 18:42:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id AKfX3OwuE1yF; Tue, 30 May 2017 18:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8EB8316008D; Tue, 30 May 2017 18:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Glenn Morris References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 18:42:00 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425-done Cc: acm@muc.de, Eli Zaretskii , 23425-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 05/30/2017 06:07 PM, Glenn Morris wrote: > A year has passed. Is this report still relevant? No, as the patch I installed into master a year ago appears to have fixed the problem by supporting Alan's original request in Bug#23425#26 of having a value for text-quoting-style that would "suppress all substitution of quotes". (setq text-quoting-style 'grave) now has the desired effect. Closing. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 31 17:25:56 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 May 2017 21:25:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48025 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGB7s-00010B-1p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 May 2017 17:25:56 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:41135 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGB7p-000101-PY for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 May 2017 17:25:54 -0400 Received: (qmail 75449 invoked by uid 3782); 31 May 2017 21:25:51 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C71F7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.113.247]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 31 May 2017 23:25:50 +0200 Received: (qmail 3950 invoked by uid 1000); 31 May 2017 21:24:52 -0000 Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 21:24:52 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> References: <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Paul. On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 18:42:00 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 05/30/2017 06:07 PM, Glenn Morris wrote: > > A year has passed. Is this report still relevant? Yes, it is very much relevant. The bug has not been fixed. In particular, somebody using `message' to generate quotes in the natural and obvious fashion (possibly intending to resubmit them to the lisp reader) will get them corrupted, and will lose much time and energy attempting to diagnose the puzzling bug which results, possibly giving up. The only documentation for this feature is obscure and hidden. There is nothing in `message''s doc string which explicitly states likely unwanted replacement of characters takes place; just a puzzling "exception proves the rule" paragraph. > No, as the patch I installed into master a year ago appears to have > fixed the problem by supporting Alan's original request in Bug#23425#26 That appearance is deceptive. And my original complaint was most assuredly not in #26 of that thread. Your workaround did not fix the problem. The problem, stated above, is the waste of other people's time and energy inevitably caused by the current code and default options. A fix would be a state in which somebody could use `message' in emacs -Q without getting caught up in all this stuff. > of having a value for text-quoting-style that would "suppress all > substitution of quotes". (setq text-quoting-style 'grave) now has the > desired effect. Closing. Well, thanks a bunch for giving me a chance to state my view before closing this bug. Notice that both Glenn's post and your response were made in the middle of the night, European time, without there being intervening European day time. This bug has not been fixed. That judgement is mine, as the person who raised it in the first place. Did you close this bug as "won't fix"? Although not good, that would at least be better than pretending it's been fixed and sweeping it back under the carpet. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:09:37 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 22:05:01 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 31 19:26:22 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 May 2017 23:26:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48121 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGD0P-0000oh-TK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 May 2017 19:26:22 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:57090) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGD0O-0000oT-3j for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 31 May 2017 19:26:20 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC10160052; Wed, 31 May 2017 16:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id 084BhPdbxNpB; Wed, 31 May 2017 16:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52EC61600A7; Wed, 31 May 2017 16:26:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id THBhEq7t7OYZ; Wed, 31 May 2017 16:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E0B49160052; Wed, 31 May 2017 16:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie References: <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 16:26:12 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B9887C6A3B39DB9820F00B46" Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B9887C6A3B39DB9820F00B46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 05/31/2017 02:24 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > This bug has not been fixed. Oh, sorry, I misunderstood your earlier comments. I reopened the bug. > The only documentation for this feature is obscure and hidden. There > is nothing in `message''s doc string which explicitly states likely > unwanted replacement of characters takes place; just a puzzling > "exception proves the rule" paragraph. I installed the attached patch into master, which I hope makes that doc string sufficiently clear. I'd rather not change the Emacs default behavior, though, for reasons already discussed. --------------B9887C6A3B39DB9820F00B46 Content-Type: text/x-patch; name="0001-src-editfns.c-Fmessage-Improve-doc-string-Bug-23425-.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename*0="0001-src-editfns.c-Fmessage-Improve-doc-string-Bug-23425-.pa"; filename*1="tch" >From 74908f08ab6a77311e4e3c688fcd354e8beb8d97 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Paul Eggert Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 16:22:24 -0700 Subject: [PATCH] * src/editfns.c (Fmessage): Improve doc string (Bug#23425#130). --- src/editfns.c | 9 ++++----- 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-) diff --git a/src/editfns.c b/src/editfns.c index a51670c..89a6724 100644 --- a/src/editfns.c +++ b/src/editfns.c @@ -3734,11 +3734,10 @@ In batch mode, the message is printed to the standard error stream, followed by a newline. The first argument is a format control string, and the rest are data -to be formatted under control of the string. See `format-message' for -details. - -Note: (message "%s" VALUE) displays the string VALUE without -interpreting format characters like `%', `\\=`', and `\\=''. +to be formatted under control of the string. Percent sign (%), grave +accent (\\=`) and apostrophe (\\=') are special in the format; see +`format-message' for details. To display STRING without special +treatment, use (message "%s" STRING). If the first argument is nil or the empty string, the function clears any existing message; this lets the minibuffer contents show. See -- 2.9.4 --------------B9887C6A3B39DB9820F00B46-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 01 12:56:25 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jun 2017 16:56:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49932 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGTOb-0002bn-MM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 12:56:25 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:38851) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGTOZ-0002ba-Mg for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 12:56:23 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dGTOT-0007qZ-Nh for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 12:56:18 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:58415) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dGTOO-0007me-R5; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 12:56:12 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dGTOH-0005fT-G5; Thu, 01 Jun 2017 12:56:05 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> X-Spook: Lon Horiuchi Lockdown Phreaking RSA Agent Bridge doctrine X-Ran: rwg0Oj&)k+W=o"K'Abziwd&\CJ`;UA7q1"oKXXHrii|Lkyv.r_~x%5kbuD"U71.?fm!1'$ X-Hue: red X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 12:56:05 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 31 May 2017 21:24:52 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) So in your view what needs to happen for this bug to be closed? As was explained a year ago, change your initial example to (message "%s" ...) and your issue goes away. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 02 17:03:13 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Jun 2017 21:03:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51962 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGtiz-0000OP-Ef for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 17:03:13 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:11364 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGtix-0000OG-H5 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 17:03:12 -0400 Received: (qmail 25991 invoked by uid 3782); 2 Jun 2017 21:03:09 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C76FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.118.254]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 23:03:08 +0200 Received: (qmail 3913 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Jun 2017 21:02:09 -0000 Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 21:02:09 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> References: <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Paul. On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 16:26:12 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 05/31/2017 02:24 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > This bug has not been fixed. > Oh, sorry, I misunderstood your earlier comments. I reopened the bug. Thanks. How about transferring this discussion to emacs-devel, so that more people would be able to see it. > > The only documentation for this feature is obscure and hidden. There > > is nothing in `message''s doc string which explicitly states likely > > unwanted replacement of characters takes place; just a puzzling > > "exception proves the rule" paragraph. > I installed the attached patch into master, which I hope makes that doc > string sufficiently clear. I'd rather not change the Emacs default > behavior, though, for reasons already discussed. The default behaviour has been changed already, and that change has caused problems and will cause further problems. I propose restoring the default to what it was in Emacs 24. For simplicity's sake, only % should be special, and for translating quotes we could introduce %' and %`, such that quote translation happens only when a %' or %` is present. This would solve the problem in an elegant and consistent way, would enable quote translation to happen, yet would avoid users of literal quote characters getting caught up in unwanted quote translations. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 02 17:16:01 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Jun 2017 21:16:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51971 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGtvL-0000fe-Vx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 17:16:00 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f41.google.com ([74.125.82.41]:36710) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGtvK-0000fR-Mz for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 17:15:59 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 7so34340603wmo.1 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:15:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=euSYXGfCu4NTnqMjJCQr4c0hq2kENK3sAfUBND8UGIw=; b=Nwq/gCVYdyMTygUqdvJ2pLTcXkcHF3wM+CwbXzNi81TL6MuErmiSQdJSr6oQLRiKSY OgWgEmR8vIwVEJIyhzDbICDeGn8yZRYl7jdyr4SVIwZIxZ1Cftt6QZX8PYHzWBUIEMDC l58XA06tCIdHZh9izcBrhzjBWV8k8ShwF2qqxP40YI1x/NfTfqqDJwLCnzEdqFDjYXwJ DysZAyEcHNmpoK2ESathzBG7XD+0vMJ2IfZV50yA5Kz7YY9E37AThoAXhsphm+gOcVjh HPD703DZmzAnq0dbAlwFuDyts04NEaeV55SXJRzmJIMX9eL1ZyTTUXYP0WIfyzme+qmU vfbw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=euSYXGfCu4NTnqMjJCQr4c0hq2kENK3sAfUBND8UGIw=; b=W39FrO13AgP0/5sd5Nb4IMEqUA2/wg2RxLvwN9gR7i9zfjx8DLX/nHLpufNpR4GWlJ hPYwDtrK5PQPi85B3/JEc05rBPg3ESBg+549qPOFATonxJY7p6pjHbxHWlwZl2McGmVR 64IZIEtIjA/n0upqjKWbF3WVLXqSlOgE12ULSh9XCGIHR9H8BYLb9Lw7IH7CP7zcE27s 2a4O2dly0Ig9At0uEeh6bvrD0r7xlJMCfzryTC+4y9KJz37Ot4s/b3CCKvPqpUSnyGA3 O3tZY38xmlibJ7yXhAzZ2boUWDon5ZzxBZ8xq2gN5EF1gw93LkemhDos2dTUXSoM+nqk UkvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcA4PBdKRtXVSHLM9fkbOvpTxVh81yhlA0huXjnq3W2zFc+W21v6 Bbkn26z03XUX52/BHTw= X-Received: by 10.28.135.7 with SMTP id j7mr734878wmd.56.1496438152884; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([185.105.174.193]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id a136sm2844333wme.26.2017.06.02.14.15.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 02 Jun 2017 14:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie , Paul Eggert References: <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 00:15:49 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:54.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/54.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) On 6/3/17 12:02 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > I propose restoring the default to what it was in Emacs 24. For > simplicity's sake, only % should be special, and for translating quotes > we could introduce %' and %`, such that quote translation happens only > when a %' or %` is present. I recall proposing something to that effect back in one of the original discussions. E.g. GCC does that with its message function. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 02 17:47:53 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Jun 2017 21:47:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51995 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGuQC-0001Pc-FV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 17:47:52 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:60462) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGuQA-0001PN-0O for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 17:47:50 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F1C160078; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id TWVzWRwnaCpX; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0BB116008D; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:47:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Ylb1Y01s2KV4; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 71536160078; Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie References: <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:47:42 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 06/02/2017 02:02 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > How about transferring this discussion to emacs-devel, so that more > people would be able to see it. We had that discussion there already, and I doubt whether it=E2=80=99d be= =20 worthwhile to repeat it. Of course you're free to take it there again if=20 you like. > The default behaviour has been changed already, and that change has > caused problems and will cause further problems. I expect that most of the practical problems have been shaken out=20 already with the changes published in Emacs 25.1 last year, so that most=20 of this cost has already been paid. > I propose restoring the default to what it was in Emacs 24. For > simplicity's sake, only % should be special, and for translating quotes > we could introduce %' and %`, such that quote translation happens only > when a %' or %` is present. That kind of approach was proposed way back when. It doesn=E2=80=99t addr= ess=20 quotes in doc strings, though. More generally, a problem with this sort=20 of approach is that although it simplifies =E2=80=98message=E2=80=99 (obv= iously), this=20 is at the price of complicating everything else. I estimate we=E2=80=99d = need to=20 change 10,000 lines of Emacs source code to make that change to=20 =E2=80=98message=E2=80=99. (This is a just a quick estimate based on =E2=80= =98grep '".*`.*"'=E2=80=99.)=20 The resulting source code would typically be a bit harder to read than=20 it is now. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 02 20:13:36 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jun 2017 00:13:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52163 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGwhD-0006ar-9A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 20:13:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:41243) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dGwhB-0006af-UP for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 20:13:34 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dGwh5-0003iU-TG for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 20:13:28 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:36944) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dGwh1-0003dk-1o; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 20:13:23 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dGwh0-0002Px-Cw; Fri, 02 Jun 2017 20:13:22 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spook: Irish Republican Army Security Council class struggle X-Ran: 9;mDm37N7"t~8HtI+C]'W.1@C'+.3[?@5Ib!0nb?WzDDN[hy#NW>`)Sf,?aKiGkyY1?WLW X-Hue: red X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 20:13:22 -0400 In-Reply-To: <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:47:42 -0700") Message-ID: <73poemlyhp.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > We had that discussion there already, and I doubt whether it'd be > worthwhile to repeat it. Of course you're free to take it there again > if you like. I think this is a situation where the maintainer(s) should simply announce a decision, so that we can stop going over the same ground again and again. (Personally I think a year and two releases means the decision is already made.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 03 16:54:37 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jun 2017 20:54:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54216 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHG4C-0006NS-RZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:54:37 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:45248 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHG4B-0006NJ-AM for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 16:54:35 -0400 Received: (qmail 37297 invoked by uid 3782); 3 Jun 2017 20:54:32 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FC46308.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.196.99.8]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 22:54:31 +0200 Received: (qmail 2230 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Jun 2017 20:53:31 -0000 Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 20:53:31 +0000 To: Paul Eggert , emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> References: <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) [ Message posted to emacs-devel@gnu.org, with Reply-To: set. ] Hello, Paul. On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 14:47:42 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 06/02/2017 02:02 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > How about transferring this discussion to emacs-devel, so that more > > people would be able to see it. > We had that discussion there already, and I doubt whether it’d be > worthwhile to repeat it. Of course you're free to take it there again if > you like. The previous discussion was abruptly cut short, without reaching a conclusion, with a "we're too close to a release to change anything now". This came with the implicit understanding the discussion could be countinued after the release. > > The default behaviour has been changed already, and that change has > > caused problems and will cause further problems. > I expect that most of the practical problems have been shaken out > already with the changes published in Emacs 25.1 last year, so that most > of this cost has already been paid. They have not. We have moved from a state where everybody knew what `message' did (in Emacs 24), to one with wild special characters which only apply sometimes, and necessitate crazy prolix formulations to work around unwanted translations of quote characters. `message' is currently broken. Introducing quote translation has introduced a burden on all users of `message'. Seeing how poisonous and insidious this translation can be, it makes sense to shift this burden over to the use cases where the programmers need quote translation, and hence will be aware of it. > > I propose restoring the default to what it was in Emacs 24. For > > simplicity's sake, only % should be special, and for translating quotes > > we could introduce %' and %`, such that quote translation happens only > > when a %' or %` is present. > That kind of approach was proposed way back when. It doesn’t address > quotes in doc strings, though. Of course it doesn't. Doc strings have their own peculiar quoting mechanisms which are disjoint from those of `message'. > More generally, a problem with this sort of approach is that although > it simplifies ‘message’ (obviously), this is at the price of > complicating everything else. What is the "everything else" that gets thus complicated? I don't see anything else getting more complicated. > I estimate we’d need to change 10,000 lines of Emacs source code to > make that change to ‘message’. (This is a just a quick estimate based > on ‘grep '".*`.*"'’.) The resulting source code would typically be a > bit harder to read than it is now. I think this estimate is way over the mark. There are around 17,000 occurrances of "message" in our Lisp sources, and probably a few in our C sources. Only (some of) those containing the quote characters in the format string would need amendment. These will comprise a tiny portion of these ~17,000, and can be found easily enough with a script. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 03 17:02:04 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jun 2017 21:02:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54220 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHGBQ-0006Yq-MM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:02:04 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:15111 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHGBP-0006Yh-GB for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:02:03 -0400 Received: (qmail 39283 invoked by uid 3782); 3 Jun 2017 21:02:02 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FC46308.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.196.99.8]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 23:02:01 +0200 Received: (qmail 2276 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Jun 2017 21:01:01 -0000 Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 21:01:01 +0000 To: Glenn Morris , emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170603210101.GB2130@acm.fritz.box> References: <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <73poemlyhp.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <73poemlyhp.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) [ Posted to emacs-devel@gnu.org. Reply-To: set there too. ] On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 20:13:22 -0400, Glenn Morris wrote: > > We had that discussion there already, and I doubt whether it'd be > > worthwhile to repeat it. Of course you're free to take it there again > > if you like. The discussion was abruptly suspended with "we're too close to a release", without any conclusion having been reached. `message' and friends are in a thoroughly unsatisfactory state, with wild ad-hoc rules, and obstruse formulations needed as workarounds. > I think this is a situation where the maintainer(s) should simply > announce a decision, so that we can stop going over the same ground > again and again. (Personally I think a year and two releases means the > decision is already made.) The decision was made in the near infinite number of releases prior to Emacs 25 to have a rational and clear system of special characters beginning with %. Quote translation, which was introduced into Emacs without a consensus amongst developers has destroyed that rationality and simplicity. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 03 17:08:51 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jun 2017 21:08:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54224 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHGHz-0006hT-Fg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:08:51 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:44080 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHGHx-0006hK-KI for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:08:50 -0400 Received: (qmail 40607 invoked by uid 3782); 3 Jun 2017 21:08:48 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FC46308.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.196.99.8]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 23:08:47 +0200 Received: (qmail 2285 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Jun 2017 21:07:47 -0000 Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 21:07:47 +0000 To: Glenn Morris , emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170603210747.GC2130@acm.fritz.box> References: <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Glenn. On Thu, Jun 01, 2017 at 12:56:05 -0400, Glenn Morris wrote: > So in your view what needs to happen for this bug to be closed? > As was explained a year ago, change your initial example to (message > "%s" ...) and your issue goes away. No it does not. The issue is that this is a trap waiting to spring and bite hackers. Also the workaround you identify is ugly and irregular - it would involve writing two format strings (one of them being the "%s") to do one `message' invocation. I have identified a regular and rational way to repair the damage, namely to introduce the new %-constructs %` and %', which would invoke quote translation, and would remain compatible with `message' as it was before Emacs-25. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 03 17:11:15 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jun 2017 21:11:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54232 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHGKJ-0006lH-4C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:11:15 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:18452 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHGKG-0006l9-Ib for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:11:13 -0400 Received: (qmail 41124 invoked by uid 3782); 3 Jun 2017 21:11:11 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FC46308.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.196.99.8]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 23:11:10 +0200 Received: (qmail 2313 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Jun 2017 21:10:10 -0000 Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 21:10:10 +0000 To: Dmitry Gutov , emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170603211010.GD2130@acm.fritz.box> References: <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) [ Posted to emacs-devel@gnu.org, Reply-To: set there, too. ] Hello, Dmitry. On Sat, Jun 03, 2017 at 00:15:49 +0300, Dmitry Gutov wrote: > On 6/3/17 12:02 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > I propose restoring the default to what it was in Emacs 24. For > > simplicity's sake, only % should be special, and for translating quotes > > we could introduce %' and %`, such that quote translation happens only > > when a %' or %` is present. > I recall proposing something to that effect back in one of the original > discussions. E.g. GCC does that with its message function. Can you see any disadvantage with such a change? -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 03 17:32:53 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jun 2017 21:32:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54262 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHGfF-0007JD-Bf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:32:53 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f46.google.com ([74.125.82.46]:37527) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHGfE-0007Iy-9i for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 17:32:52 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f46.google.com with SMTP id d127so49811595wmf.0 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 14:32:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rBcJumdb5mUWjvIEvPloi88/+hFdlwP9nY7ZVZQiQus=; b=NXpjRz5BDGyttbxzRbu1DMOBf0xdynvMpdTBQRb80tUi2mUHRcqeWHQof0o/ngQJI2 V5bALezkOupPTRzqbDIwtE3pvIiRWrmHHgsRwxoG8MAFXxX40Qxl17HjxYGWIhJwc8Ws mXUaYP2qX3va0Y/jjhGKLknmzeql+Zs3DW4Ym+0HLG0Q4A0xRnvGCG75mr5Ge1PbOocy l2bQZMC7et3vxz1sY/Yrpx06/inTpSwChJDI7k+fLeUX/gWBWLqstqvllmVESqB2X1D4 B1JsTxsVdzKU0VQ9flvYNVRY/RuXuPswHFkcPTdwzFRuxsOF5UHIdaROdlhdKE37bPpE MQ/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=rBcJumdb5mUWjvIEvPloi88/+hFdlwP9nY7ZVZQiQus=; b=q+t1bcRPafJ1+qKsprExJiofW77b2OoWcR364nRBB9MFb0p0XJ6OEzOYYKPPlfRDSl HtGVqwolPNXehLOZ8NTUH5Mjci8pKIu+xcwOTPJk2G0g7J+o0yjJKNUBy8RsnDFU3/6E 2jELrNGoFr64dkJ2tk2eMYgqn8k5TQS056IQYT51QB34KX0dLKcYWat1k+PpMpeYHJy+ PJVGCtZ4LGMyAIBWUrBuihhr7rgxD/1gSBYl8lSkcYzf+JcMr8IBsTp4tC3mXAw7OTpK 5mpGOjkdBcraNi3pwvnSyQE5OsV5nF7jpVBDkztH5XDpF4O3QLuCUCDB/whNUvm3eT8g 7Zlg== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcA3BNOnOoe26Qg6Ddp295z1osZK4lSA2kdaAMGm2GytoHLK40WD rkGjMUJZzFTPMIm5eQc= X-Received: by 10.28.153.143 with SMTP id b137mr3466644wme.15.1496525566394; Sat, 03 Jun 2017 14:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([185.105.174.193]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id v45sm37029134wrb.68.2017.06.03.14.32.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 03 Jun 2017 14:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: emacs-devel@gnu.org References: <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <20170603211010.GD2130@acm.fritz.box> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 00:32:42 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:54.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/54.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170603211010.GD2130@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) On 6/4/17 12:10 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >> I recall proposing something to that effect back in one of the original >> discussions. E.g. GCC does that with its message function. > > Can you see any disadvantage with such a change? IIRC, it was waved away with complaints of verbosity. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jun 04 17:01:52 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jun 2017 21:01:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56172 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHcem-0000il-C7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:01:52 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:53126) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHcek-0000iZ-Dh for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:01:51 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951661600E3; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id hLax0kMHAhio; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC3751600E8; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:01:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id f_ah0hcJKoYz; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (unknown [47.153.188.248]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D35E1600E3; Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: emacs-devel@gnu.org References: <4019c1e5-36b4-745f-b299-16b074bff81e@cs.ucla.edu> <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:01:42 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Alan Mackenzie wrote: > We have moved from a state where everybody knew what > `message' did (in Emacs 24), to one with wild special characters which > only apply sometimes, and necessitate crazy prolix formulations to work > around unwanted translations of quote characters. This exaggerates somewhat. We moved from Emacs 24 where only % is special= , to=20 Emacs 25 where %, ` and ' are special. Although some people don't know th= at `=20 and ' are special, that's also true for %. And although it can be annoyin= g to=20 write (message "%s" STR) to avoid unwanted translation of STR, that annoy= ance=20 was already present for %. > it makes sense to shift this burden over to the use cases where the > programmers need quote translation, and hence will be aware of it. When text-quoting-style specifies translation, most instances of ` and ' = in=20 Emacs messages are better off translated. So it also makes sense to trans= late by=20 default in this situation, with a way to avoid translation in the rare ca= ses=20 where translation isn't wanted. The question is about which approach make= s more=20 sense, not whether one approach is sensible and the other nonsense. >> although it simplifies =E2=80=98message=E2=80=99 (obviously), this is = at the price of >> complicating everything else. >=20 > What is the "everything else" that gets thus complicated? I was referring to the hassle of going through hundreds or thousands of m= essage=20 strings or calls, deciding which instances of ` and ' should be replaced = with %`=20 and %', and replacing the instances accordingly. It's also possible that = at=20 times we'll need two format strings instead of one, complicating the code= . > There are around 17,000 > occurrances of "message" in our Lisp sources, and probably a few in our > C sources. Only (some of) those containing the quote characters in the > format string would need amendment. These will comprise a tiny portion > of these ~17,000 How many lines do you think will be in that "tiny portion"? No matter how= you=20 count them, it'll be quite a few changes. > and can be found easily enough with a script I'm afraid not, because in many cases the string is not a simple literal=20 constant argument to the message function. For starters, there's also the= error=20 function; that's another 14,000 text matches in the Elisp source -- many = of them=20 false alarms of course, but not all of them. I'm not saying this sort of change is impossible. It's just that it'd be = quite a=20 bit of work, work that someone would need to volunteer to do. Is this rea= lly the=20 best use of our limited resources? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 05 12:28:44 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jun 2017 16:28:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57953 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHus0-0003QJ-3g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 12:28:44 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:28143 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHury-0003QB-GG for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 12:28:43 -0400 Received: (qmail 65815 invoked by uid 3782); 5 Jun 2017 16:28:40 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C78F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.120.244]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 18:28:38 +0200 Received: (qmail 31064 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Jun 2017 16:27:37 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 16:27:37 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> References: <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Paul. On Sun, Jun 04, 2017 at 14:01:42 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > We have moved from a state where everybody knew what > > `message' did (in Emacs 24), to one with wild special characters which > > only apply sometimes, and necessitate crazy prolix formulations to work > > around unwanted translations of quote characters. > This exaggerates somewhat. We moved from Emacs 24 where only % is special, to > Emacs 25 where %, ` and ' are special. Yes. We moved from regularity (where %x, for varying x, and nothing else was special) to a ragbag (where there are 3 special characters, with the two "new" ones being syntactically totally different from %). > Although some people don't know that ` and ' are special, that's also > true for %. No. _Anybody_ who's used `message' knows that %s is how you print out an arbitrary sexp. Anybody who's used printf in C knows this, too. It is very easy not to know that ` and ' are special, and horribly easy to get caught out by it, as happened to me. > And although it can be annoying to write (message "%s" STR) to avoid > unwanted translation of STR, that annoyance was already present for %. It is not merely annoying, it is hideously irregular. Having to write (message "%s" (format "...." arg1 arg2 ....)) screams out "we didn't think this through properly". A call to message should only need one format string. The change I am proposing would achieve this. This was never the case for %. It is and always was trivially easy to cause a literal % sign to be output by message, and there was never danger of confusion in this. We also have `format' and `format-message' which handle format strings inconsistently. (Yes, I know, `format-message' was introduced deliberately to create this inconsistency, because `format' was no longer able to cope on its own.) > > it makes sense to shift this burden over to the use cases where the > > programmers need quote translation, and hence will be aware of it. > When text-quoting-style specifies translation, most instances of ` and ' in > Emacs messages are better off translated. So it also makes sense to translate by > default in this situation, with a way to avoid translation in the rare cases > where translation isn't wanted. I disagree with this, of course. Translating behind people's backs is not a friendly thing to do. Translation should only be done where it is specifically specified. > The question is about which approach makes more sense, not whether one > approach is sensible and the other nonsense. OK. > >> although it simplifies ‘message’ (obviously), this is at the price of > >> complicating everything else. > > What is the "everything else" that gets thus complicated? > I was referring to the hassle of going through hundreds or thousands of message > strings or calls, deciding which instances of ` and ' should be replaced with %` > and %', and replacing the instances accordingly. Yes. There are quite a lot, but not an unmanageable number. > It's also possible that at times we'll need two format strings instead > of one, complicating the code. We need two strings instead of one at the moment, with (message "%s" (format "..." .....)). With %` and %' we'd only need one string in each message invocation. This is simplification. Can you give an example of something which might need two strings? > > There are around 17,000 occurrances of "message" in our Lisp > > sources, and probably a few in our C sources. Only (some of) those > > containing the quote characters in the format string would need > > amendment. These will comprise a tiny portion of these ~17,000 > How many lines do you think will be in that "tiny portion"? No matter how you > count them, it'll be quite a few changes. By searching for "(\\(message\\|error\\)\\s +\\([^\"]\\|\"\\(\\\\.\\|[^\"\\]\\)*[`']\\)" , i.e. an invocation of message or error followed by either something which isn't a literal string, or a literal string containing ` or ', I get 2745 matches in our Lisp sources. There'll be a smaller number also in our C sources. I would have to enhance that regexp to recognise comments, and maybe a few other things, but 2745 is a good first approximation. A very great number of these are "(error ..." handlers in condition-case forms. A great number of those remaining could be simply and mechanically translated, for example "don't", "can't", "couldn't", etc., and a lot of "`%s'"s and "`%S'"s. I estimate there will be a few hundred forms remaining which need decision making to adapt them. For example, where message is used in macros, and the format string is a macro parameter. > > and can be found easily enough with a script > I'm afraid not, because in many cases the string is not a simple literal > constant argument to the message function. For starters, there's also the error > function; that's another 14,000 text matches in the Elisp source -- many of them > false alarms of course, but not all of them. See above. > I'm not saying this sort of change is impossible. It's just that it'd be quite a > bit of work, work that someone would need to volunteer to do. Is this really the > best use of our limited resources? Clearly, that someone would have to be me. The consequences of surreptitious unwanted translation are so severe that I think this would indeed be a good use of resources. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 05 14:19:19 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jun 2017 18:19:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58029 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHwb1-0005tn-I7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 14:19:19 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:48152) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHwaz-0005tZ-J3 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 14:19:18 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC5371600F3; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id C1XaOQhHs5if; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68DC1600F5; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:19:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ZNbO4M-GrTa7; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 83A701600F3; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie References: <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:19:06 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 06/05/2017 09:27 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Can you give an example of something which might need two strings? Suppose the same string is used for both messages and documentation. You're proposing %` in the former where ` is in the latter, so we would need distinct strings.People cut and paste between messages and doc strings, and it's possible there's even code that does this (I haven't checked). Using different quoting notations for the two kinds of strings will cause confusion and problems. > 2745 is a good first approximation. This is being optimistic. It's not just the message and error functions; there are others, ranging from general functions like user-error to more-specialized functions like icalendar--dmsg.These cannot be found merely by a simple text search for function names. A simple albeit tedious and somewhat error-prone approach would be to examine every ` and ' in every string and character constant (in either C or Elisp) and fix those intended for the message function or any of its callers. This is the sort of thing that I did when converting for Emacs 25. > The consequences of surreptitious unwanted translation are so severe It's not surreptitious: it's documented. And the consequences are not severe: they are a minor change to strings intended for human consumption, where humans can easily recover from unwanted translation, and where humans who don't want translation can easily turn it off. As I understand it, you're proposing making hundreds or thousands of changes like this: (error "Can't find `%s' in %s" thing where))) => (error "Can%'t find %`%s%' in %s" thing where))) These changes will adversely affect code readability, and this will have a maintenance cost in the long run -- not just to whoever makes the hundreds or thousands of changes, but to everybody who has to read the code afterwards.It's not at all clear that this cost is greater than the benefit of fixing some of the minor problems that you're objecting to. > _Anybody_ who's used `message' knows Perhaps I should introduce you to my students someday. I teach them elements of Emacs and I assure you that some of them do not know. Although I readily concede that more people know about % than ` or ', this doesn't alter the fact that it causes problems to support special characters of any sort in the message function. Elisp code needed to use (message "%s" STR) even before the change you're objecting to, and it'd still need (message "%s" STR) even if the change were reverted. > It is not merely annoying, it is hideously irregular. Having to write > (message "%s" (format "...." arg1 arg2 ....)) screams out "we didn't > think this through properly". Yes, and that's just as true for % as it is for ` and '. In hindsight, the message function should have had a better API. Hindsight is wonderful.... From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 05 14:31:22 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jun 2017 18:31:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58034 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHwmg-0006Bf-OI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 14:31:22 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:33797) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHwmf-0006BX-9X for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 14:31:21 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3whNgX0MFJz1qv3l; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 20:31:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.70]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3whNgW3mqNz3jgY2; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 20:31:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.70]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OncIAeX6CO8a; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 20:31:18 +0200 (CEST) X-Auth-Info: GIy1OElv4lTrizuHxTPvZba2NglxuI2b/jKNLF47quQ9WUHCfcman0Jka3oDWTR0 Received: from igel.home (ppp-88-217-4-216.dynamic.mnet-online.de [88.217.4.216]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 20:31:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9AC732C4CF6; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 20:31:14 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <83zis4h59w.fsf@gnu.org> <51a2ae75-71f7-10f6-ae2a-7c830bdf0a30@cs.ucla.edu> <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> X-Yow: LOOK!!! I'm WALKING in my SLEEP again!! Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2017 20:31:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Paul Eggert's message of "Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:19:06 -0700") Message-ID: <87k24qgubx.fsf@linux-m68k.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Glenn Morris X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Jun 05 2017, Paul Eggert wrote: > Suppose the same string is used for both messages and > documentation. You're proposing %` in the former where ` is in the latter, > so we would need distinct strings.People cut and paste between messages > and doc strings, and it's possible there's even code that does this (I > haven't checked). Using different quoting notations for the two kinds of > strings will cause confusion and problems. That's a bad argument. A doc string already has completely different special characters. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 05 16:38:59 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jun 2017 20:38:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58125 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHymB-0004cs-8o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 16:38:59 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:49978 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHym8-0004ch-Gk for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 16:38:57 -0400 Received: (qmail 33719 invoked by uid 3782); 5 Jun 2017 20:38:55 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C78F4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.120.244]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 22:38:53 +0200 Received: (qmail 32712 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Jun 2017 20:37:53 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 20:37:53 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Paul. On Mon, Jun 05, 2017 at 11:19:06 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 06/05/2017 09:27 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: [ .... ] > > 2745 is a good first approximation. > This is being optimistic. It's not just the message and error functions; > there are others, ranging from general functions like user-error to > more-specialized functions like icalendar--dmsg.These cannot be found > merely by a simple text search for function names. Maybe not, but 2745 remains a good first approximation. Other functions which call message will be found in their turn, and the number of calls of things like icalendar--dmsg will be small, both individually and in total. There are around 275 calls to message which have a non-literal format argument. > A simple albeit tedious and somewhat error-prone approach would be to > examine every ` and ' in every string and character constant (in > either C or Elisp) and fix those intended for the message function or > any of its callers. This is the sort of thing that I did when > converting for Emacs 25. > > The consequences of surreptitious unwanted translation are so severe > It's not surreptitious: it's documented. And this documentation is useless for preventing the problems. Somebody using message to output Lisp will use ' just as I did - and suffer the same horrendous problems trying to make sense of non-sensical error messages saying 'foo does not exist, when it plainly does. Do you, perhaps, have another strategem for preventing this problem? As I said, the burden of dealing with this translation should fall on those who are actually and consciously using it. Unless, of course, you're in favour of hackers remaining unaware of the stealthy alterations being made to their expressed intentions. Such a burden, on those wanting the translation, is small. > And the consequences are not severe: they are a minor change to > strings intended for human consumption, where humans can easily > recover from unwanted translation, and where humans who don't want > translation can easily turn it off. When I got caught by this bug there was no "easy" way to turn off the translation. The process of turning it off involved a long period of puzzlement over the non-sensical error messages referred to above, and an even longer period of being very angry at having my work messed up by Emacs. How do you propose to prevent such puzzlement and anger in the future, if not by %` and %'? And I was somebody who had been familiar with discussions on emacs-devel over such matters. Such things might not seem severe to you. I am sure they are to many people. > As I understand it, you're proposing making hundreds or thousands of > changes like this: > (error "Can't find `%s' in %s" thing where))) > => (error "Can%'t find %`%s%' in %s" thing where))) Yes. > These changes will adversely affect code readability, and this will have > a maintenance cost in the long run No. The addition of quote translation is what has affected readability. It is currently implicit and vague, a bit like the lack of connection between written English and spoken English. I am proposing restoring it to an explicit form, where the sole special character is %, as it had been for ever before Emacs 25. I don't think you've considered the maintenance cost of this impliciticity, this vagueness, the fact that people will be using ` and ' in format strings without understanding what they mean. > -- not just to whoever makes the hundreds or thousands of changes, but > to everybody who has to read the code afterwards. Those people will be able to understand the code much more easily with explicit %` and %' rather than the stealthy behind-the-back translation which happens at the moment. > It's not at all clear that this cost is greater than the benefit of > fixing some of the minor problems that you're objecting to. It's easy to minimise and dismiss other people's problems. I don't see non-sensical error messages as anything but a major problem. One of the problems of the Emacs 25 approach is that the distinction between ` and ', and the curly quotes has become vague, fuzzy, and confused. I do not want this confusion to carry on into Emacs 26. > > _Anybody_ who's used `message' knows > Perhaps I should introduce you to my students someday. I teach them > elements of Emacs and I assure you that some of them do not know. The ones who have never used `message', you mean. You're not seriously telling me that any of your students who've written a message call with a "%s" in the format string remain unaware of the role of %, are you? > Although I readily concede that more people know about % than ` or ', > this doesn't alter the fact that it causes problems to support special > characters of any sort in the message function. Elisp code needed to use > (message "%s" STR) even before the change you're objecting to, Did it? When and why? > and it'd still need (message "%s" STR) even if the change were > reverted. When and why? > > It is not merely annoying, it is hideously irregular. Having to write > > (message "%s" (format "...." arg1 arg2 ....)) screams out "we didn't > > think this through properly". > Yes, and that's just as true for % as it is for ` and '. Not at all. In message, % causes no problems. ` and ' do. > In hindsight, the message function should have had a better API. > Hindsight is wonderful.... If you think a better API could have been conceived, outline it. I don't. And even if it could, that's no excuse to worsen the workings of message. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 05 17:05:51 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jun 2017 21:05:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58144 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHzCB-0005IS-0j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 17:05:51 -0400 Received: from mail-qt0-f175.google.com ([209.85.216.175]:33941) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dHzCA-0005IF-41 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 17:05:50 -0400 Received: by mail-qt0-f175.google.com with SMTP id c10so49631610qtd.1 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 14:05:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6vrBj4rjXuUpvtWkmZCNMIx2wHfqILKcT7ZQTRjsdpE=; b=HkPCsZozqWeNG5gFWvkTvwK8r5CvvKbTs1ZyTbDEENC/M8JJUnF5QVENahfQkF3gOh 6asKznRfpAxg8Jv9uS1YUwra6Oe4tBayWVwFQkIwM1bQGqSgMWeABSJe8z8GvKzUn+Xf tTzNljFwElg6jpX6b5iIFuTfN9cICiLZdJzx48rYanYt4ltVfKglqzOox7KqurQSbxv5 D8iUoMKg1TFqDL4hialA0BWz2j6/dOyonAoKeHPKX3x/FEitcHUfjOVH+h2NAd/g7vUC P08xgqmrj7B/Xf5ApSGu6Mptu919D0aVsEMj+dZ3fi7zRXvpmV1hd9fmcJ963MThI8zz nnRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=6vrBj4rjXuUpvtWkmZCNMIx2wHfqILKcT7ZQTRjsdpE=; b=IOFiJXZV7Dznc9HCp3aaMKofj3oNovW70ugFBiTCBYa0Ht4/VAmudpHM9hp61FEp6t eP+6bPUOi0JnajT7HOoZg0gfc86Y8WxrGgUAewhN+V81EXxeOiGK5i1Ic15CVOufNml2 nHQxWpcK7LXmWpIixXVm1MEpz91zsGVa/L1JP1UAAGQNHJxFnReDIjBRPw//12tcNVZP UGoZhqv/4o6Vl9q2RCYOqR1HjeovLF1JPNYcS7GfYEccBncksQV2y8/BVk4hYRdEPvgG CpCsdQ/SqG89TXdsFNykTQchTSXiWbKVSg3oLeEUY9C7/EPPJw6zhPX8SCXr3FPCQG7d EmIw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOzLTBKRdW7gGtN0JTBgDoFKuPQDlqHVT3BsnROysQ64f6iJFqvg xIWodq0pLur3GA== X-Received: by 10.55.191.67 with SMTP id p64mr24840149qkf.149.1496696744391; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 14:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [18.111.28.55] (dhcp-18-111-28-55.dyn.mit.edu. [18.111.28.55]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p52sm22597970qta.49.2017.06.05.14.05.43 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Jun 2017 14:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie , Paul Eggert References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=c3=a9ment_Pit-Claudel?= Message-ID: <77995ce8-8ce5-d29b-9668-4ad0a5616be8@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 17:05:43 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) On 2017-06-05 16:37, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > How do you propose to prevent such puzzlement and anger in the > future, if not by %` and %'? Note that this introduces a backwards compatibility issue, if not done carefully: Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Not enough arguments for format string") message("%`woops%'") eval((message "%`woops%'") nil) Did something similar happen with \=' ? Clément. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 05 20:14:48 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2017 00:14:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58291 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dI292-00053g-4M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 20:14:48 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:42218) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dI290-00053T-Fi for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2017 20:14:47 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7051600C7; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 17:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id FDJa9Rr2zuI2; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 17:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AACFF1600F3; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 17:14:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id qKKkyMyKhm1F; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 17:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5846F1600C7; Mon, 5 Jun 2017 17:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 17:14:37 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) >> Elisp code needed to use >> (message "%s" STR) even before the change you're objecting to, > > Did it? When and why? Yes, because one can=E2=80=99t pass arbitrary strings to the message func= tion=20 and expect them to be displayed as-is. This has been true for years. For=20 example, lisp/ChangeLog.8 says this: 1999-02-23 Richard M. Stallman * subr.el (with-temp-message): Use %s so % in old msg won't fool us. This use of (message "%s" ...) is still in master, and would still be=20 needed even if we went back to Emacs 24-style message formatting. > Somebody using message to output Lisp will use ' just as I did - and=20 suffer the > same horrendous problems Sure, like the =E2=80=9Chorrendous=E2=80=9D problems with %. For example,= in Emacs 24=20 your example, when used with data involving %: (setq c-parse-state-state '((a '%%))) (message (concat "(setq " (mapconcat (lambda (arg) (format "%s %s%s" (car arg) (if (atom (cdr arg)) "" "'") (if (markerp (cdr arg)) (format "(copy-marker %s)" (marker-position (cdr arg))) (cdr arg)))) c-parse-state-state " ") ")")) returns "(setq a '((quote %)))", which is obviously wrong and which=20 results in silent data corruption. > Do you, perhaps, have another strategem for preventing this problem? Sure: don=E2=80=99t pass arbitrary strings to the message function. > How do you propose to prevent such puzzlement and anger in the future Not by this: >> (error "Can't find `%s' in %s" thing where))) >> =3D> (error "Can%'t find %`%s%' in %s" thing where))) For Emacs code this would likely be a cure worse than the disease, by=20 causing more puzzlement and anger than it would prevent. It would make=20 formats significantly harder to read. And as Cl=C3=A9ment mentioned, it w= ould=20 introduce compatibility problems of its own. There is a better way if the primary goal is to avoid quote translation: (error "Can't find `%s' in %s" thing where))) =3D> (error "Can=E2=80=99t find =E2=80=98%s=E2=80=99 in %s" thin= g where))) Compared to %` and %', this is simpler, easier to read, and more=20 compatible with current and older Emacs versions. A downside, though, is=20 that it would involve changing hundreds or thousands of strings in the=20 Emacs source (just as %` and %' would). > You're not seriously > telling me that any of your students who've written a message call wit= h > a "%s" in the format string remain unaware of the role of %, are you? Sure, they learn about % after the message function doesn=E2=80=99t work = the way=20 they naively expected. In that respect, % is like ` and '. > There are around 275 calls to message which have a non-literal > format argument. Each one stands for possibly many other calls, and we don=E2=80=99t know = how=20 many of these other calls might cause a problem. > The consequences of surreptitious unwanted translation ... >> It's not surreptitious: it's documented. > And this documentation is useless for preventing the problems. True, documentation by itself does not prevent programming problems.=20 However, this doesn=E2=80=99t change the fact that quote translation is=20 documented. It is not =E2=80=9Csurreptitious=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cimplici= t=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cvague=E2=80=9D or=20 =E2=80=9Cstealthy=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cfuzzy=E2=80=9D. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jun 06 04:21:35 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2017 08:21:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58458 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dI9k6-0001Bw-Eb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 04:21:35 -0400 Received: from mx2.suse.de ([195.135.220.15]:58475 helo=mx1.suse.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dI9k4-0001Bm-6O for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 04:21:32 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at test-mx.suse.de Received: from relay1.suse.de (charybdis-ext.suse.de [195.135.220.254]) by mx1.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC9A0AD20; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 08:21:30 +0000 (UTC) From: Andreas Schwab To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> X-Yow: I demand IMPUNITY! Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2017 10:21:30 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Paul Eggert's message of "Mon, 5 Jun 2017 17:14:37 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) On Jun 05 2017, Paul Eggert wrote: >>> Elisp code needed to use >>> (message "%s" STR) even before the change you're objecting to, >> >> Did it? When and why? > > Yes, because one can’t pass arbitrary strings to the message function and > expect them to be displayed as-is. Another bad argument, because we are talking about format strings, which you cannot be replaced by "%s". >>> (error "Can't find `%s' in %s" thing where))) >>> => (error "Can%'t find %`%s%' in %s" thing where))) A better way would be a new modifier to place quotes around the argument. That's what GCC is using now. Also, contractions like don't should be avoided anyway. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jun 06 08:24:50 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2017 12:24:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58571 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIDXW-0000Vj-H9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 08:24:50 -0400 Received: from mail-qt0-f172.google.com ([209.85.216.172]:32842) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIDXT-0000VV-Ti for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 08:24:48 -0400 Received: by mail-qt0-f172.google.com with SMTP id u12so103462198qth.0 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 05:24:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0D4thZnV0dOoNSOeda499MjHVyYKzDmdzfgE6eFr9c4=; b=I7dbQJBhbHPQX01HjCr70NAKk4siGGE7geCXzXK5bxhsHnEFT85m8d4u/KFG/IkqKI yn/sOyPLFlt3C0F9yCY67xKc2NDO+xFqUK4zB1R+B3JbM9+E9ikDaEKYEkWCXTmxPdM4 id/PNdAt7uXo9XMeYnmZB5fi8/SjV/q2SZSGafiKPsgtQoP2hVqZOY1Lh/4BboAgXV66 IgOa/g5QkJRb1We5EkOMEmN2lEmInTLAXBDW6JKB2Po9u2M8d8/f7Sku9NbXesvxE+RZ 8M9LmnzZIpIrQS8EPNr8VUslimXaS5nyBC7XcDdC+gr0teTlSo/S3VEgiaA7GwrxLMEW 2yjA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=0D4thZnV0dOoNSOeda499MjHVyYKzDmdzfgE6eFr9c4=; b=HCpO5vZs0QMsGUGwSzpcs4qEcwWMjk6T89kqTD5AjnKYhtkYhrAW851AnPYrBdavkj W3W1DxhzSvqhrR38LVKL1xlUEEyLqzewdip+wdajAFo0Or7S3YY2juB1thzl6xav5ZiD IWGRHdeztZDyn8QegcxDVA69IEuirqWJT/p82VKPG993vjzZl5w+gkP2mEL++2AkNani 1pba8g6UJAfPGG5z3hPAIMRjELNO1y7qRrKT96LCfh2trTUMXC68MbAgaTSuliX9mmZ9 ldXNxZYViVuEWp6g+Mx4sbBl+VllJc6zcs+zwJSHyW+EZzKatvSmVKtIUXCz0uSpZaz8 8dOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcC9fXQY7z3xg8gBSuQA0mhzlXYGlOb2HWpnuq6oOl/1sBj5c0e/ +KZgm4iXu6vnlA== X-Received: by 10.55.102.138 with SMTP id a132mr28122444qkc.66.1496751882285; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 05:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [18.111.28.55] (dhcp-18-111-28-55.dyn.MIT.EDU. [18.111.28.55]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q66sm23632011qkh.39.2017.06.06.05.24.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Jun 2017 05:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Andreas Schwab , Paul Eggert References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=c3=a9ment_Pit-Claudel?= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 08:24:40 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 2017-06-06 04:21, Andreas Schwab wrote: > Also, contractions like don't > should be avoided anyway. That doesn't matter much in the long run, I think: we intend to support languages in which apostrophes in the middle of words can't be avoided. Clément. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jun 06 09:56:23 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2017 13:56:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59777 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIEy5-0002yV-Ir for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 09:56:23 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-f46.google.com ([74.125.82.46]:36198) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIEy4-0002yJ-7S for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 09:56:20 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-f46.google.com with SMTP id 7so98186497wmo.1 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 06:56:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oPOo64qmZqiA5hZf1CKqN43JBBXyznQ+031ahGb6Klw=; b=fl3X4iY0EpoptMRSFnobj2PRf0Jclo5/xTlychZK6+Nxrbp2HDZb2zOJcda4vgUqx1 +sTH1QwiIeEHkqLr6/7CTxLwuJtfwx/GDOxY3GbWrjz47yr+NZ3Hf6dTwcn0BbKIxEDb kIamr2A/wuSBhMMTXFHWG3XPe7B3R3oqPOaV0AVmLPFlsuA5SR+vO83+jpfazZYF1OQu S1YLiJJW1hLgErT8nHO1hkKcQWyEtGIqbXVI8CFW9bWkcutgD3wH62nX8P35QmNGiEfl cnn19Rw2u0loKQQ/ZMu4A+C+am4LwAJ4oUjoB4ufQF7DhtQjW2L3uMoDSjpVjuPRGFAm cDNg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oPOo64qmZqiA5hZf1CKqN43JBBXyznQ+031ahGb6Klw=; b=XXyKMuAYd6dTs59FtMwF9LNimTjUQYk8jFnmEkFDKWga2qQ8kEy67BpTXC+yxyj4R+ HURXVLf4X6OdSSF2NkzXOCw19pY9E2YP/NZ58abQwGUyIQHZawkF11a+grzkw5FADlMz 6ifyvwZAyKaBWBu01ukuivEt7gG1UKLZ8KPPOqTzuo7dgNF5Ewvg+relsOdpo5xn0k6w 1PdzdCoIzHQntOuERIq+XdUm9xpEhO3j+bh6I/dklJ3bxQV5Dqe17j6RRy9lkW/gIuD2 BVSQ3EYZywmV0R+jJHxvXw0+utQP5RA3YHL7562sYQtM/dd/9PCKmhlW0aZTDLMvSwS2 YqNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcBu5vTKxy2QCqpnALJtxJyj1OI8Bh23x64wmYXm1AlNovGTII8R s2mfCrHG52MR8DdK/s3bcWG+tb4jTg== X-Received: by 10.28.107.87 with SMTP id g84mr3892153wmc.63.1496757374407; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 06:56:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.164.93 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 06:55:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> From: Yuri Khan Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 20:55:53 +0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: W-uWHDh67XRH7eHv41P5wJc_8DY Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment_Pit=2DClaudel?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Andreas Schwab , Paul Eggert , Emacs developers , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, Alan Mackenzie X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 7:24 PM, Cl=C3=A9ment Pit-Claudel wrote: > On 2017-06-06 04:21, Andreas Schwab wrote: >> Also, contractions like don't >> should be avoided anyway. > > That doesn't matter much in the long run, I think: we intend to support l= anguages in which apostrophes in the middle of words can't be avoided. In that long run, I have more news for you: there are languages which have a letter that looks almost, but not exactly, like the apostrophe punctuation mark, but is encoded differently. (E.g. Ukrainian, U+02BC Modifier Letter Apostrophe, as opposed to U+2019 Right Single Quotation Mark). Good luck substituting the correct character in each case given only ' U+0027 Apostrophe. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jun 06 14:21:48 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2017 18:21:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59845 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIJ6y-0000X2-9A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 14:21:48 -0400 Received: from mail-qt0-f176.google.com ([209.85.216.176]:36187) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIJ6w-0000Wo-QM for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 14:21:47 -0400 Received: by mail-qt0-f176.google.com with SMTP id u19so82240587qta.3 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 11:21:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Xr8gjxISkPPFWuWYuhax7MtcaXiLSxFP4PzzYw8e9rQ=; b=dEpGu9YAk//NPVxFToGl07jN0hTxEubEZV6HiJUluwtEfzVMWWFeJWHyfU5CzI+HUU 1+5DqnhiKXkLBCFpb4Gbrex+Kqzztu5tngO9wL6HhRdgdy/XXDwXo/KzB9DLw0V3VRgv 35iGbcR+H2NzPkMmFuFWXN2eTTIpjt5KXLVHlMsRGkeMQTEd9SPmFFbf1+r1Uem8xelb TDO3afdyqp+sfjaslzxdmXyFnPfUFqDrJGzVYHcfQVwOXw8ojqAJWRIC7zb+d9pdRbEQ QAd38YwSLmiK75Xrpi8BsBHghM71bFracx28tQglbufRZflZbam3Rxp4DOR1+z3XUm1f pHNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Xr8gjxISkPPFWuWYuhax7MtcaXiLSxFP4PzzYw8e9rQ=; b=i0JnVJDJc4Qu3tEx3YdlPJlw1YsccEItG0GYiX3bLaXhaho4pIjhlNDa3VTu+zSsb2 HWct+y0g4PH5u4KTzWaoLmnqBeGC56EdtUfaFTasguRXuL3otCIW+tAY8xu1M6ep/Hye WtnpO0w6T7nXPvcJWBRioUcDUU0q4s8O/MKnsh8tdbwP5wiu2w7gksrjQr1lzgpFc8zo SN+EUnWh/4LYhmt7W66mqShrBxRSWok8pWPrGF4btqAjI6QzTcww2iWPMAwl273jMGLI smm7WJgKzZcJzOnhmkpVCo0KNYWB/KA7VDEm7IsiEGgbAdAutLq1/mpGyiHbzOopVClT Qu5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcD3/GLy1wsgw+4e3CaBpopXTYyWwSk3Z5MFpC0/oC/DRYXs/SGy GZzzSdPWeU+Ijw== X-Received: by 10.55.105.2 with SMTP id e2mr30341505qkc.48.1496773300114; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 11:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:470:8b2d:1a:9bab:c177:73b2:20a9? ([2001:470:8b2d:1a:9bab:c177:73b2:20a9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g90sm10132417qkh.22.2017.06.06.11.21.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Jun 2017 11:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Yuri Khan References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=c3=a9ment_Pit-Claudel?= Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 14:21:38 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Andreas Schwab , Paul Eggert , Emacs developers , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, Alan Mackenzie X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 2017-06-06 09:55, Yuri Khan wrote: > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 7:24 PM, Clément Pit-Claudel > wrote: >> On 2017-06-06 04:21, Andreas Schwab wrote: >>> Also, contractions like don't >>> should be avoided anyway. >> >> That doesn't matter much in the long run, I think: we intend to support languages in which apostrophes in the middle of words can't be avoided. > > In that long run, I have more news for you: there are languages which > have a letter that looks almost, but not exactly, like the apostrophe > punctuation mark, but is encoded differently. (E.g. Ukrainian, U+02BC > Modifier Letter Apostrophe, as opposed to U+2019 Right Single > Quotation Mark). > > Good luck substituting the correct character in each case given only ' > U+0027 Apostrophe. Do you mean that in these languages the casual way is to write ', though the formal way would be ʼ? Clément. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jun 06 15:00:04 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2017 19:00:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59864 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIJhz-0001XG-V5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:00:04 -0400 Received: from mail-wr0-f179.google.com ([209.85.128.179]:35686) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIJhx-0001WF-Mq for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:00:02 -0400 Received: by mail-wr0-f179.google.com with SMTP id q97so58025576wrb.2 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 12:00:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=07o61a2kJ0CJOj6jaIZTJtCOTTYWyPoyiYoFu0tPnuc=; b=cYzSjFjBPPcRlERv+l6vIVm6Oi61ov2aqtjQNA9/QrvCNsVjivgoKMdGqUT168420Z uP7BoVGePAbC2rSgZkT5Hd6msie3NIYbMwYLPlMg2U2LgShexCqSnjeDflIYXackeLE+ /xHuzNxHJeXqeE/p7KKQCVxbctuvsWkHItnK16lKHoHLMhG4LCH9QOB2lb5J9mSsgf8p +U0ZkuFp5Armj693mcrA/9bqKREIP8MgzdHOA0sAQ872Tfia5K6szg5ydeQVyYm4Kl3N w9OgKTDHzBlsCB6bRT7pZAFrOTTQ4Fj04s0Pny13/DcxBJGSX9Oss3edffhejIpMe/Ox 2ezA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=07o61a2kJ0CJOj6jaIZTJtCOTTYWyPoyiYoFu0tPnuc=; b=crd5AUvybnmiMgWglQ4e5FdHPmcNNVVS5kTLt3YDOMkQLdSH2R6YLjFcquEbatytZk ed82MWkP6cgE9bXnXRKEKdTfFThjeiNRoha9mFgcRaGMwKRerfTS+odNIdNxARLb71dV Ok1x1GyqWv7UdfgA4W9JiauYARktytlhGScTEgMLlmIKk8KZiiJOlhxcaNfQjA2TSK0l 5t9UxrMEBrGDsF0Gd8SgqvptfZiA+bzgrPMaOsJmDS3Jr7ryrEBSEZkn6o0zIpxVjaby qYzC3eW4ahQi/6zvHMGN42XOiArsqv68RQGdKSc+Mk49HeRse3Yc/9F1/YnaJvk5rbtd 4Vgw== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcBTd5AHimDOGCWbvP3a2B4RwtQvWhtxxBCLZv0tVk5desmCearA WC+6zstO0veXz/DARIHHYGktJTJywg== X-Received: by 10.223.146.166 with SMTP id 35mr18353354wrn.98.1496775595930; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 11:59:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.164.93 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> From: Yuri Khan Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 01:59:35 +0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: TunYLTXTPIT5eU29SP1sRrqSW1s Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment_Pit=2DClaudel?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Andreas Schwab , Paul Eggert , Emacs developers , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, Alan Mackenzie X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 1:21 AM, Cl=C3=A9ment Pit-Claudel wrote: >> In that long run, I have more news for you: there are languages which >> have a letter that looks almost, but not exactly, like the apostrophe >> punctuation mark, but is encoded differently. (E.g. Ukrainian, U+02BC >> Modifier Letter Apostrophe, as opposed to U+2019 Right Single >> Quotation Mark). > > Do you mean that in these languages the casual way is to write ', though = the formal way would be =CA=BC? Hm, I haven=E2=80=99t thought about that. That depends. The default XKB Ukrainian layout maps the key to U+0027 and Shift+ to U+02BC. I have no knowledge whether X11/GNU/Linux users actually bother to press Shift. The Ukrainian layout on Windows (Vista and above) has only U+0027. There exist third-party typographic layouts but I assume they are only used by people who are (1) aware of the difference, and (2) care. So, yes, I expect that the majority of Ukrainian computer users do in fact enter U+0027 when the correct character is U+02BC. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jun 06 15:40:07 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2017 19:40:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59878 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIKKk-0002YI-Q1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:40:06 -0400 Received: from mail-qt0-f179.google.com ([209.85.216.179]:33998) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIKKi-0002Xj-Kn for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 15:40:04 -0400 Received: by mail-qt0-f179.google.com with SMTP id c10so87985224qtd.1 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 12:40:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VUsWd3KQPt3V6tdrbMChQ5vV7JGz3Wvf2mTmSfq+wFY=; b=vT1JNi/YJIYR2USHZxGdlx8xER/IicyU6KSASKIsVZhjLNsifw6X7zxTgwHWSp169i K4f0etwImiR2YhTFIqkXbnkiT7tq0wLRAkNJj1I/61m1pCwGTBzlKKHQbOeKVw6ihMJT zRUGSJI5jiizkrgHt2MOC6RuBl99Mg/DaeRO3717DvIjc6hPEDjLsR8zQxEa7v0RVwfS fYF0B80mr4QsH5Uqlfl8IUNQtbARMKxLMLVHdeA08k/9MBDBMpeG0ncGS77qgN2BAAVW 5mrggOPqXVt1+cT5OGhv4cKDkbHbHOSgJ24XJTgO3Cr6cAk2z4PBCZVl7SO+ljPo4INL yzGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=VUsWd3KQPt3V6tdrbMChQ5vV7JGz3Wvf2mTmSfq+wFY=; b=BoNHHVfR2fWzP5NIHhb1DRe2cCaYG1H3bgb3SC9Mh+lMtEtR/gjPkn+naOO8/KOXc5 Iz3qg6QJeX2Jisr7OiCsIq6+MaANAIPwAGXYvqlrVvScyspa8alp+KJVgfMuqKwt5AtX oMO++ge7mK5HltzgIaG6zXgUNpZbts18QTKO6BKtCs8MglIvEA3Vz336G3V75dGfRmkT tlwiDEGoF2ImXc89ml8hAsHYuCA0ATIiKs0xHlnKzN8CkUOyt6YZgNNLvhZ10Hw18C1j HrAsY+PZP9M+ANtoHo8RnAaN5r85qMF/BDB/Qs77EIHW5PDebxFCkdTNUuM6fJ1gwA6h P7Yg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOy/x+uauSfLdBMsAYnmzGPsjxEJUzTgT+8TJm2d2VdGiU8rJWEt eiI7bJU1WVqs2g== X-Received: by 10.55.107.70 with SMTP id g67mr33364186qkc.107.1496777999006; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 12:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:470:8b2d:1a:9bab:c177:73b2:20a9? ([2001:470:8b2d:1a:9bab:c177:73b2:20a9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i33sm11483441qtb.2.2017.06.06.12.39.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Jun 2017 12:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Yuri Khan References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=c3=a9ment_Pit-Claudel?= Message-ID: <10515b89-1c60-227e-ff3d-3127f59c0daf@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:39:57 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Andreas Schwab , Paul Eggert , Emacs developers , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, Alan Mackenzie X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 2017-06-06 14:59, Yuri Khan wrote: > So, yes, I expect that the majority of Ukrainian computer users do in > fact enter U+0027 when the correct character is U+02BC. Makes sense, thanks for clarifying. It might be possible to enforce that translation files use the proper character (people writing translations for Emacs will be able to rely on an appropriate Emacs input method). Can you confirm that this would sidestep the issue that you mentioned earlier? We'd never have ' where ʼ is meant, and so automatic `'-translation wouldn't cause unexpected issues. (The language that prompted my initial email was unsurprisingly French, which uses ' between consecutive characters (it'd be a pain to have to type "l%'arrivée d%'un email", and I don't know anyone who types in the proper "l’arrivée d’un email", except when their text editor auto-corrects). Clément. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jun 06 19:09:30 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2017 23:09:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60015 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dINbO-0003Bx-0Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 19:09:30 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:48904) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dINbM-0003Bg-4M for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Jun 2017 19:09:28 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4306A160119; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id VTtsuoeSPQZC; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B22416011A; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:09:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id SCdNRi-oWd9e; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 218C4160119; Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Andreas Schwab References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <39cfc8be-8233-7f03-561c-8fffce0a6c0c@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:09:20 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 06/06/2017 01:21 AM, Andreas Schwab wrote: > we are talking about format strings, which you cannot be replaced by "%= s". The original bug report is about the =E2=80=98message=E2=80=99 function, = not about=20 formats in general. For that function, "%s" is the longstanding way to=20 output arbitrary strings. For formats in general, one can use the=20 =E2=80=98format=E2=80=99 function (which does not translate quotes) or th= e=20 =E2=80=98format-message=E2=80=99 function (which does); this suffices in = practice. > contractions like don't should be avoided anyway As a practical matter Emacs messages often have contractions and I am=20 not aware of a GNU style guideline that would discourage their use.=20 Plus, some uses of apostrophes in messages are for possessives, not=20 contractions. Surely we should not ban contractions and possessives=20 merely because our API has glitches with apostrophes. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 07 00:57:39 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2017 04:57:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60177 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIT2I-0004aA-Ua for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 00:57:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:34999) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIT2G-0004Zx-Sk for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 00:57:37 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dIT2B-0005GW-3k for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 00:57:31 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:42991) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dIT22-0005BX-MU; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 00:57:22 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3576 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dIT21-0002OQ-9p; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 00:57:21 -0400 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2017 07:57:15 +0300 Message-Id: <83wp8o8kes.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: =?utf-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment?= Pit-Claudel In-reply-to: <10515b89-1c60-227e-ff3d-3127f59c0daf@gmail.com> (message from =?utf-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment?= Pit-Claudel on Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:39:57 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <10515b89-1c60-227e-ff3d-3127f59c0daf@gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, schwab@suse.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, acm@muc.de, yuri.v.khan@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: Clément Pit-Claudel > Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:39:57 -0400 > Cc: Andreas Schwab , Paul Eggert , > 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, Alan Mackenzie , > Emacs developers > > (The language that prompted my initial email was unsurprisingly French, which uses ' between consecutive characters (it'd be a pain to have to type "l%'arrivée d%'un email", and I don't know anyone who types in the proper "l’arrivée d’un email", except when their text editor auto-corrects). You should know that there are people who claim that using u+2019 in "l’arrivée" is incorrect, and that one should write "lʼarrivée" instead. The rationale is that u+2019 is a punctuation character, so it doesn't belong in the middle of a word. There was a long discussion about that on the Unicode list a couple of months ago. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 07 03:45:02 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2017 07:45:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60270 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIVeI-0000E1-1f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 03:45:02 -0400 Received: from mx2.suse.de ([195.135.220.15]:44866 helo=mx1.suse.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIVeG-0000Dd-Ab for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 03:45:00 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at test-mx.suse.de Received: from relay2.suse.de (charybdis-ext.suse.de [195.135.220.254]) by mx1.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22417AC03; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 07:44:59 +0000 (UTC) From: Andreas Schwab To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <39cfc8be-8233-7f03-561c-8fffce0a6c0c@cs.ucla.edu> X-Yow: They don't hire PERSONAL PINHEADS, Mr. Toad! Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2017 09:44:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: <39cfc8be-8233-7f03-561c-8fffce0a6c0c@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:09:20 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) On Jun 06 2017, Paul Eggert wrote: > The original bug report is about the ‘message’ function, not about formats > in general. For that function, "%s" is the longstanding way to output > arbitrary strings. For formats in general, one can use the ‘format’ > function (which does not translate quotes) or the ‘format-message’ > function (which does); this suffices in practice. That doesn't make sense, since the first argument of message is a format string. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 07 09:28:11 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2017 13:28:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60568 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIb0L-0003YT-Sl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 09:28:11 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:29915) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIb0J-0003Xz-7u for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 09:28:07 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v57DRpuF018117 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Jun 2017 13:27:53 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v57DRpZn009155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 7 Jun 2017 13:27:51 GMT Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v57DRnuC022977; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 13:27:49 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <10a9db33-50a1-4928-be39-f7562390f2b0@default> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 06:27:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Paul Eggert , Andreas Schwab Subject: RE: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <39cfc8be-8233-7f03-561c-8fffce0a6c0c@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <39cfc8be-8233-7f03-561c-8fffce0a6c0c@cs.ucla.edu> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6767.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Could you guys please possibly pick only one mailing list, bugs or emacs-devel? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 07 12:51:24 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2017 16:51:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33468 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIeB2-0008Rk-DF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 12:51:24 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:37605 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIeB0-0008Rc-TH for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 12:51:23 -0400 Received: (qmail 68011 invoked by uid 3782); 7 Jun 2017 16:51:20 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C713C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.113.60]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 18:51:19 +0200 Received: (qmail 2468 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Jun 2017 16:50:17 -0000 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:50:17 +0000 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Cl=E9ment?= Pit-Claudel Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170607165017.GA2430@acm.fritz.box> References: <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <77995ce8-8ce5-d29b-9668-4ad0a5616be8@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <77995ce8-8ce5-d29b-9668-4ad0a5616be8@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Clment. On Mon, Jun 05, 2017 at 17:05:43 -0400, Clment Pit-Claudel wrote: > On 2017-06-05 16:37, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > How do you propose to prevent such puzzlement and anger in the > > future, if not by %` and %'? > Note that this introduces a backwards compatibility issue, if not done carefully: > Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Not enough arguments for format string") > message("%`woops%'") > eval((message "%`woops%'") nil) I think it would be done carefully! Clearly, %` and %' would be format elements for which the count of necessary arguments would not be incremented. Or, more concisely, we wouldn't count them. [ .... ] > Clment. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 07 14:17:33 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2017 18:17:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33528 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIfWO-0005dM-TN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 14:17:33 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:44472) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIfWN-0005d8-Tv for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 14:17:32 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F107160155; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id 4Gwl83AAc27z; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5740160157; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:17:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id nrS6eTarhZc3; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8177A160155; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Andreas Schwab References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <39cfc8be-8233-7f03-561c-8fffce0a6c0c@cs.ucla.edu> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <72f5a745-0294-7c49-1b21-e6178aa31b5a@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:17:24 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) [dropping emacs-devel on Drew's request] On 06/07/2017 12:44 AM, Andreas Schwab wrote: > That doesn't make sense, since the first argument of message is a=20 > format string. Sorry, I=E2=80=99ve lost context. I wrote that (message "%s" STR) was nee= ded=20 even before Emacs 25 for arbitrary strings STR, to avoid unwanted=20 interpretation of characters in STR. Alan was dubious and wanted to know=20 when and why that occurred. I gave a example from 1999 and said the=20 =E2=80=9Cwhy=E2=80=9D was because =E2=80=9Cone can=E2=80=99t pass arbitra= ry strings to the message=20 function and expect them to be displayed as-is=E2=80=9D. You objected to = this=20 justification, writing =E2=80=9Cwe are talking about format strings, whic= h you=20 cannot be replaced by "%s".=E2=80=9D This objection was unclear and the=20 subsequent discussion (from my point of view, anyway) has gone off the=20 rails. Perhaps you could clarify the objection by giving specific code=20 that exemplifies the problem you are thinking of, presumably a problem=20 that cannot easily be addressed by using (message "%s" ...). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 07 15:14:53 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2017 19:14:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33549 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIgPt-0006vz-3j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:14:53 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:49135 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIgPp-0006vo-Hv for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:14:51 -0400 Received: (qmail 6316 invoked by uid 3782); 7 Jun 2017 19:14:47 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C713C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.113.60]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 21:14:46 +0200 Received: (qmail 4977 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Jun 2017 19:13:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 19:13:44 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> References: <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Paul. On Mon, Jun 05, 2017 at 17:14:37 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > >> Elisp code needed to use > >> (message "%s" STR) even before the change you're objecting to, > > Did it? When and why? > Yes, because one can’t pass arbitrary strings to the message function > and expect them to be displayed as-is. This has absolutely nothing to do with the current bug, and I'm sorry if I've discussed the point as though it did. I'm not suggesting arbitrary strings should be messaged without a "%s" format string. What I am arguing against is being required to use _two_ format strings in one message invocation, as (message "%s" (format "..." ...)). This just screams out "not thought through" and is unacceptable. > > Somebody using message to output Lisp will use ' just as I did - and > > suffer the same horrendous problems > Sure, like the “horrendous” problems with %. That's pure sophistry. _Nobody_, excepting the least bright of your students (I'm assuming here that it's not the teaching which is at fault) will have the slightest difficulty with % in message, because it stands out visually. Every format construct (up to Emacs 24) started off with %, and that simplicity and symmetry has now been destroyed. I propose to restore it. By contrast, the current ` and ' are disguised format constructs which look like plain characters. They should become %` and %' to make them explicit and compatible with all the other format constructs. > For example, in Emacs 24 your example, when used with data involving > %: [ .... ] That example from CC Mode, which gave rise to this bug report, did not have and could not have had % signs. If the reverse had been the case, they would have been carefully and correctly coded before even trying the thing out, because I, like everybody else here, know that % introduces format constructs. > > Do you, perhaps, have another strategem for preventing this problem? > Sure: don’t pass arbitrary strings to the message function. In other words, just ignore the problem, and have it hit as many people as it will, without giving them any help. That's not very nice of you. > > How do you propose to prevent such puzzlement and anger in the future > Not by this: > >> (error "Can't find `%s' in %s" thing where))) > >> => (error "Can%'t find %`%s%' in %s" thing where))) > For Emacs code this would likely be a cure worse than the disease, > .... How so? It would make the format constructs explicit, giving maximum control to the hacker. Or do you want to make all the curvy quote stuff as sly and stealthy as possible, so that as few hackers as possible will be aware of it? > .... by causing more puzzlement and anger than it would prevent. How could it cause puzzlement? It's mnemonic and consistent with the other format constructs. > It would make formats significantly harder to read. But only slightly. You seem to be saying that the formats need to be dumbed down for hackers to understand them. I'm sure you're not right, here. > And as Clément mentioned, it would introduce compatibility problems of > its own. Rubbish! What Clément pointed out is that the part of styled_format which counts format constructs and argumnts would need to be modified. This would be trivial. > There is a better way if the primary goal is to avoid quote translation: > (error "Can't find `%s' in %s" thing where))) > => (error "Can’t find ‘%s’ in %s" thing where))) > Compared to %` and %', this is simpler, easier to read, and more > compatible with current and older Emacs versions. Except those characters don't appear on non-Finnish keyboards, hence are difficult to type, and they don't display nicely on all supported environments. These things make that suggestion a non-starter for current purposes. > A downside, though, is that it would involve changing hundreds or > thousands of strings in the Emacs source (just as %` and %' would). There's already a volunteer to do this work, so that's not really a downside at all. > > You're not seriously > > telling me that any of your students who've written a message call with > > a "%s" in the format string remain unaware of the role of %, are you? > Sure, they learn about % after the message function doesn’t work the way > they naively expected. In that respect, % is like ` and '. Only in the same sense that Emacs is like Microsoft's notepad, in that they're both text editors. Only the rawest of beginners will be confused by a % in a format string. That is not the level of experience we expect of our target users. > > There are around 275 calls to message which have a non-literal > > format argument. > Each one stands for possibly many other calls, and we don’t know how > many of these other calls might cause a problem. No, but the number will be small enough for each instance to be dealt with individually. > > The consequences of surreptitious unwanted translation ... > >> It's not surreptitious: it's documented. It may be documented, but it's still surreptitious. It seems intended by its writer to be as hidden as possible, so as to make those using it as unaware as possible of the consequences of its use. If you don't like %` and %', perhaps you could suggest some other way of preventing the nature of ` and ' in format strings from being so obscure. > > And this documentation is useless for preventing the problems. > True, documentation by itself does not prevent programming problems. > However, this doesn’t change the fact that quote translation is > documented. It is not “surreptitious” or “implicit” or “vague” or > “stealthy” or “fuzzy”. It is most definitely implicit, in that there is no indication in the format string that quote translation happens, it is stealthy, in that it goes out of its way to hide its actions. It is vague, in that a hacker who sort of knows message will be permanently unsure which characters in a format string are not literal. This documentation, no matter how good it might be made, will be insufficient to prevent hackers falling into the trap which the code sets. This part of Emacs is badly thought out for this reason: it's an accident waiting to happen. I am proposing to fix it, and have volunteered to do the work. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 07 15:27:11 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2017 19:27:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33567 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIgbm-0007EG-Sh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:27:11 -0400 Received: from mail-qt0-f171.google.com ([209.85.216.171]:33053) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIgbl-0007E4-NA for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:27:10 -0400 Received: by mail-qt0-f171.google.com with SMTP id u12so17931191qth.0 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 12:27:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zKkaEvO2vvvSfl1Mf4U6bZ6rtgd483yLOJC9yhw9+yY=; b=uNdhY6cnphO0QimZDWLEW0KD70tuqz+2m7GDWvvmRoMe6ppKi2skPf5kFt24Mf9Shg Ny4+lD4wxb1Q/Vgalq0//ID1l4vxNq2WZAUuDr/nUFXt2QxzmHHpZ/M7dAiuQlqX35xi R1gLpXPYwtskZ7bMnnhiYXgddEDWJgsx6XuSTKLxAsSU9bfbVDJlmZkn6B9q7Q1DmSb8 z7rckILBQb7EAXCVpZ+swEhGH3G7d6c0DZcG/rFc7JIXgQN1Y06IecpwTpQ2zA6quGuu 82+t61OUqp/O9vJxlSU1isc9haT8IyOh83WCjMqmwsyewgPMIhe+ZeHL4ZRuB+apNvRi 736Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=zKkaEvO2vvvSfl1Mf4U6bZ6rtgd483yLOJC9yhw9+yY=; b=SXxlIU+8qOZROmMA4W0/hx0ESTdB8KRWy1tSz/vu1jarLVcvyjRDLkbi4rLL/kUngJ lmC7K/4IogYsVHtlXh+wJpWmuIIznBQtbBmQbZBq+c2kKOCu9Th+3JXbTE8OaZ+Xi9C2 m59BPI7FcJcm7rCiTAWJ9n3ptjH8Z3rd2j+fVdbpTISDVODIDqO19yJWvhnZNoOgee6K 7uDFfTdvg3HGDj78oAatzTlGhR4gELiETnIauOVaaGqd/SYREi6bE6/pd4SLJR2afSbr 1wH06Mc3jwQBX/VdZ45ifp1UTwDxfBZUj3chHa2K79FDQdiFEA/3iZh8B9Lzc5/qC1VA zE4w== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcA+x6kX6mlPbk6e3Efm7BWQllnli2+yTpKdEI7LwEriC1HDSYgF on5P4npnH6pXBQ== X-Received: by 10.55.4.140 with SMTP id 134mr39189295qke.38.1496863623929; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 12:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:470:8b2d:1a:9bab:c177:73b2:20a9? ([2001:470:8b2d:1a:9bab:c177:73b2:20a9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q34sm1630367qte.44.2017.06.07.12.27.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Jun 2017 12:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie , Paul Eggert References: <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=c3=a9ment_Pit-Claudel?= Message-ID: <966db090-4aa1-231c-ef5a-370ece8905d1@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 15:27:02 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 2017-06-07 15:13, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Rubbish! What Clément pointed out is that the part of styled_format > which counts format constructs and argumnts would need to be modified. > This would be trivial. Uh? What I pointed out was that new code wouldn't work with old Emacsen. Maybe I misunderstood your proposal? As far as I can tell, the change you propose will force me to write every `message' call like this in my packages: (if (< emacs-version 26) (message "Hello, `world'!") (message "Hello, %`world%'!")) Am I missing something? Clément. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 07 15:29:48 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2017 19:29:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33572 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIgeK-0007IM-A4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:29:48 -0400 Received: from mail-qt0-f169.google.com ([209.85.216.169]:36776) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIgeI-0007I8-R7 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:29:47 -0400 Received: by mail-qt0-f169.google.com with SMTP id u19so17981258qta.3 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 12:29:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qCQaisJWk9OftJ0Jqf7c+rZZql+P7Ntnak9tnHRc21c=; b=aYMsjOhIL9Uho2kd/uTE2YuUSbOc7Ife7c/wdW30r8/5Y5JRfUxeOxymYfdxoeZ46w SiIAK6TdbT7bSr5JRLiUdFA8oyIxPXoTGVr32UdKH3yt2WtNQwHGJN6TKoQL9dB6P81U AzcJu70KX0hgZvTVdXt8WY7twU1pBLAP7FkkwZWAbqL6s6FfxmP41xzsFFYzrTi4Ui9G fX3x9MLsQ5Yk9p1kxTGi1f77f3zQwTAttoNwH8ssgZt6J0qZnY1uAyiNjU/lyevwTmmK y6yM2ft10Ws9XR05EoCogyIJ4oayMbQCROOD7OdLaFnar+SAysIHGUS2RV32nYy2yaNy Mmeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qCQaisJWk9OftJ0Jqf7c+rZZql+P7Ntnak9tnHRc21c=; b=VeFzLMUnTwl6Xdyjqm4qtmcAboNqG4vj/IUJri8/wvCcZELW0ZAvNPe2QX3EoHVzWu OtlffABpRHcjfW0cfHJqkZeAY8AfN6+Ig8bLQpSOd4uhT78ho6KzGVP8eawDlZqU1YEu UvCDIsxO9Ehy71kZXZyWOpNqMBBJFtHQ668brzz/KjqH3jaAnRjTG+DpCTvVo4fF3xqB Qq2EhZTX8pD/mgJiN9pkd18Bh9l+h0KejxFyjpYAjvkqBCrGA6ThzDaHL7ahQMCwhqpa QMy3ICExKO9R2W8u00asn1IedshjXMynzmRXOPAcYm12pSL8IYUnOfZN11wvJoWa9eui iQsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOylzTAfLXVIO4dW04HZjRXGvdcCWWaeRFubDA4IsEZjG9THkOrI YtJBNc3FzKICkw== X-Received: by 10.55.105.133 with SMTP id e127mr39693965qkc.19.1496863781439; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 12:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:470:8b2d:1a:9bab:c177:73b2:20a9? ([2001:470:8b2d:1a:9bab:c177:73b2:20a9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 41sm1667930qky.60.2017.06.07.12.29.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Jun 2017 12:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie References: <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <77995ce8-8ce5-d29b-9668-4ad0a5616be8@gmail.com> <20170607165017.GA2430@acm.fritz.box> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=c3=a9ment_Pit-Claudel?= Message-ID: <3ecd93d6-6ef5-b955-c7f6-0994e5721ddb@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 15:29:40 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170607165017.GA2430@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 2017-06-07 12:50, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hello, Clément. > > On Mon, Jun 05, 2017 at 17:05:43 -0400, Clément Pit-Claudel wrote: >> On 2017-06-05 16:37, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >>> How do you propose to prevent such puzzlement and anger in the >>> future, if not by %` and %'? > >> Note that this introduces a backwards compatibility issue, if not done carefully: > >> Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Not enough arguments for format string") >> message("%`woops%'") >> eval((message "%`woops%'") nil) > > I think it would be done carefully! Clearly, %` and %' would be format > elements for which the count of necessary arguments would not be > incremented. Or, more concisely, we wouldn't count them. Sorry, that's not what I was talking about. The problem I was worrying about is that these new format constructs would raise exceptions in older versions of Emacs. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 07 15:33:42 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2017 19:33:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33577 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIgi5-0007PS-RJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:33:41 -0400 Received: from mail-wr0-f178.google.com ([209.85.128.178]:36464) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIgi2-0007PA-G9 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:33:38 -0400 Received: by mail-wr0-f178.google.com with SMTP id v111so10174388wrc.3 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 12:33:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Le2wSAwJw/coCOfwykmfOas2VXNua7IyHfk60SW5Z9k=; b=faTLi3EXG0eFGhyMVB7VhBkBD1NqhC+1ODMjc9SJgoeBXjHVGlt4gNX+SyrfKRW7/T ls2ENckjPQey8vam//2zCm9D1vlh2bL4dO0mV33rwVqe6NhbNoJEGlLJrSCCMSioUQ1v VO+dxMsVJX9WQwV5FbxmTtatUOORhhAOZdUrxC2f58Zc1wl2gpdL+0eyXpafrh0y7faw O5e6tWCB/GhcbOjBLS+Q4+JG9jr24p3Bl0BgfyxxC0sGXoMmky5SWi5HPhEG7sg9b4us jqhzi7SHXtJPFh5/U3CtKu3V/+dzKqhNI9ueKK8NHdGG5T/I1hP9M/5749XefbWeKCuT 2Agw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Le2wSAwJw/coCOfwykmfOas2VXNua7IyHfk60SW5Z9k=; b=gloD3EDLc7Vxkg8vBdIeuPI8/XkG2Ty+bIvenJ2q3MQz3SDFBMvZQc0RUjQZZMCy/7 RgEvxy1rE90ZPwOKDZ76rk2WYCgYyM5aPL+AUWbKdyNymF87ZZNQEOneGj4wgQZfj46k ebXwKpYGjUoGfPcjsTqlZ9XRKhlIH/H3SBzSVGUE3jOrDpEIn8SSJgzi3pbKmifq0kl+ 1AdSlvBv2OJpb7kkAnsM5nenYhl/m6xCkwe24qirE1E45KZSR/BtyohxZ9ebPyl5gaZG o/mQwO+wI5HUusE6MWF6UglR02HqWp+O+LKuFY+w3y62b6yXXLeqaXWjMPLnNIu0MzTE 8XMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcAdnyizhCzVlC9c1mUhWCv0b6kyyDgDutLfdh+rLCFp+89ZLKc8 cU4pSdZrK6tUUg== X-Received: by 10.223.177.136 with SMTP id q8mr13898325wra.200.1496864012702; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 12:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([185.105.174.193]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id m19sm3801191wmc.3.2017.06.07.12.33.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 07 Jun 2017 12:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=c3=a9ment_Pit-Claudel?= , Alan Mackenzie , Paul Eggert References: <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <966db090-4aa1-231c-ef5a-370ece8905d1@gmail.com> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: <451eec6d-bdcc-74ea-a921-037c9be423dc@yandex.ru> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 22:33:29 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:54.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/54.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <966db090-4aa1-231c-ef5a-370ece8905d1@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) On 6/7/17 10:27 PM, Clément Pit-Claudel wrote: > Uh? What I pointed out was that new code wouldn't work with old Emacsen. That's a valid concern, and the only tangible downside of introducing %` and %' that I'm aware of. > Maybe I misunderstood your proposal? As far as I can tell, the change you propose will force me to write every `message' call like this in my packages: > > (if (< emacs-version 26) > (message "Hello, `world'!") > (message "Hello, %`world%'!")) > > Am I missing something? Or wait until you only need to support Emacs 26 and newer. Not a huge loss, IMO. That time will come. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 07 15:52:55 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2017 19:52:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33587 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIh0h-0007pm-G1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:52:55 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:26411 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIh0f-0007pc-6C for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 15:52:53 -0400 Received: (qmail 17757 invoked by uid 3782); 7 Jun 2017 19:52:51 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C713C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.113.60]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 21:52:49 +0200 Received: (qmail 5205 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Jun 2017 19:51:47 -0000 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 19:51:47 +0000 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Cl=E9ment?= Pit-Claudel Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170607195147.GC2430@acm.fritz.box> References: <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <966db090-4aa1-231c-ef5a-370ece8905d1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <966db090-4aa1-231c-ef5a-370ece8905d1@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Clment. On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 15:27:02 -0400, Clment Pit-Claudel wrote: > On 2017-06-07 15:13, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > Rubbish! What Clment pointed out is that the part of styled_format > > which counts format constructs and argumnts would need to be modified. > > This would be trivial. > Uh? What I pointed out was that new code wouldn't work with old Emacsen. > Maybe I misunderstood your proposal? As far as I can tell, the change you propose will force me to write every `message' call like this in my packages: > (if (< emacs-version 26) > (message "Hello, `world'!") > (message "Hello, %`world%'!")) > Am I missing something? Apologies, I misunderstood you completely. I also missed the point you are making. I'll have to think about it. Thanks! > Clment. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 07 16:34:41 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2017 20:34:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33632 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIhf7-0002CT-Bc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 16:34:41 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:17291 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIhf6-0002CM-FN for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 16:34:40 -0400 Received: (qmail 31288 invoked by uid 3782); 7 Jun 2017 20:34:38 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C713C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.113.60]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 22:34:36 +0200 Received: (qmail 5438 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Jun 2017 20:33:34 -0000 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 20:33:34 +0000 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Cl=E9ment?= Pit-Claudel Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170607203334.GD2430@acm.fritz.box> References: <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <966db090-4aa1-231c-ef5a-370ece8905d1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <966db090-4aa1-231c-ef5a-370ece8905d1@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello again, Clment. On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 15:27:02 -0400, Clment Pit-Claudel wrote: > On 2017-06-07 15:13, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > Rubbish! What Clment pointed out is that the part of styled_format > > which counts format constructs and argumnts would need to be modified. > > This would be trivial. > Uh? What I pointed out was that new code wouldn't work with old Emacsen. > Maybe I misunderstood your proposal? As far as I can tell, the change you propose will force me to write every `message' call like this in my packages: > (if (< emacs-version 26) > (message "Hello, `world'!") > (message "Hello, %`world%'!")) That would clearly be unacceptable. > Am I missing something? No, I don't think so. But it is probably feasible to put advice on `message' in older Emacsen. This advice would strip the % from %` and %'. It should be borne in mind that the handling of ` and ' by `message' in Emacs-25 is in any case incompatible with earlier versions of Emacs. > Clment. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 07 19:28:38 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2017 23:28:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33777 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIkNR-0006Kw-TJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 19:28:38 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:35752) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIkNQ-0006Kj-6I for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 19:28:36 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1904916008D; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:28:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id Lg-i6NnjsVUY; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C821600A1; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:28:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 1ANhU8NVWMd9; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ED43116008D; Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie References: <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 16:28:28 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) [dropping emacs-devel on Drew's request.] On 06/07/2017 12:13 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > What I am arguing against is being required to use _two_ format=20 > strings in one message invocation, as (message "%s" (format "..." ...))= . We could address this problem by defining a new function (=E2=80=98memo=E2= =80=99, say),=20 that acts like =E2=80=98message=E2=80=99 except that it takes just one ar= gument and does=20 no format processing. That way, instead of writing (message "%s" (format=20 FMT A B C)), one could write (memo (format FMT A B C)), thus avoiding=20 the need for two format strings. > _Nobody_ will have the slightest difficulty with % in message, because=20 > it stands out visually. I don=E2=80=99t see what =E2=80=9Cstanding out visually=E2=80=9D has to d= o it. If one naively=20 expects (message "30%-50% done") to display "30%-50% done", one will be=20 surprised/disappointed/angry/whatever when Emacs displays only "30% done"= . > It may be documented, but it's still surreptitious. It seems intended = by its writer to be as hidden as possible It=E2=80=99s not intended to be =E2=80=9Csurreptitious=E2=80=9D or =E2=80= =9Chidden=E2=80=9D or anything like=20 that, and we should fix any part of the documentation that suggests=20 otherwise. It would be helpful to point out any specific parts of the=20 documentation needing improvement in this area. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 08 04:04:29 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jun 2017 08:04:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34065 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIsQf-00054Z-Gy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 04:04:29 -0400 Received: from mx2.suse.de ([195.135.220.15]:42341 helo=mx1.suse.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dIsQe-00054P-I2 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 04:04:28 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at test-mx.suse.de Received: from relay1.suse.de (charybdis-ext.suse.de [195.135.220.254]) by mx1.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56AF8AAB6; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 08:04:27 +0000 (UTC) From: Andreas Schwab To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <17c1c00d-a275-5e61-0c47-6872a64a9347@cs.ucla.edu> <20170531212452.GA3789@acm.fritz.box> <07bf5f9d-e8cd-a4d9-1843-b488bfe0b92c@cs.ucla.edu> <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <39cfc8be-8233-7f03-561c-8fffce0a6c0c@cs.ucla.edu> <72f5a745-0294-7c49-1b21-e6178aa31b5a@cs.ucla.edu> X-Yow: .. Should I get locked in the PRINCIPAL'S OFFICE today -- or have a VASECTOMY?? Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 10:04:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: <72f5a745-0294-7c49-1b21-e6178aa31b5a@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:17:24 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) If you want to force everyone to use (message "%s" (format ...)) then there is no point in message to use format again. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 08 13:35:08 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jun 2017 17:35:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35384 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJ1Ku-0006cq-L9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 13:35:08 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:32339 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJ1Kr-0006cd-Pd for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 13:35:06 -0400 Received: (qmail 43479 invoked by uid 3782); 8 Jun 2017 17:35:04 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C6D7E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.109.126]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 19:35:03 +0200 Received: (qmail 2739 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Jun 2017 17:34:00 -0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 17:34:00 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> References: <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Paul. On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 16:28:28 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 06/07/2017 12:13 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > What I am arguing against is being required to use _two_ format > > strings in one message invocation, as (message "%s" (format "..." ...)). > We could address this problem by defining a new function (‘memo’, say), > that acts like ‘message’ except that it takes just one argument and does > no format processing. That way, instead of writing (message "%s" (format > FMT A B C)), one could write (memo (format FMT A B C)), thus avoiding > the need for two format strings. YUCK! So we'd have both message and memo doing basically the same thing, with different interfaces. Better to make them have the same interface. In that case, you've got two functions which are so close to eachother, one single function would be better..... > > _Nobody_ will have the slightest difficulty with % in message, because > > it stands out visually. > I don’t see what “standing out visually” has to do it. If one naively > expects (message "30%-50% done") to display "30%-50% done", one will be > surprised/disappointed/angry/whatever when Emacs displays only "30% done". NOBODY will write (message "30%-50% done"). They'll be writing (message "%s%-%s% done" low high), where low is 30 and high is 50. The contradiction in the % is then obvious, and they can correct their mistaken % (both of them) to %%. > > It may be documented, but it's still surreptitious. It seems > > intended by its writer to be as hidden as possible > It’s not intended to be “surreptitious” or “hidden” or anything like > that, .... That may be the case, but it _seems_ very much like it. If the intention had actually been to be surreptitious, what more could have been done than was actually done? There are also other things which reinforce this appearance of surreptition. They should also be fixed. > .... and we should fix any part of the documentation that suggests > otherwise. It would be helpful to point out any specific parts of the > documentation needing improvement in this area. The documentation is fine. It's the design and coding which suggest the surreptition, and it is the design and coding which need fixing. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 08 16:17:49 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jun 2017 20:17:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35500 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJ3sL-0002pw-IK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 16:17:49 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:45960) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJ3sJ-0002pd-IO for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 16:17:48 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 919F31600D4; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 13:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id Bym2bmRRJIFV; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 13:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DEA1600D5; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 13:17:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id zFjGlHhFwplJ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 13:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5113B1600D4; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 13:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie References: <20170602210209.GA3570@acm.fritz.box> <11c0adfb-7fdd-8d28-1a47-869e3e7043ea@cs.ucla.edu> <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 13:17:39 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 06/08/2017 10:34 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > YUCK! So we'd have both message and memo doing basically the=20 > samething, with different interfaces. If it=E2=80=99s the API difference you object to, it=E2=80=99d be OK for = the two=20 functions to have the same signature. It=E2=80=99s no big deal. > you've got two functions which are so close to each other, one single f= unction would be better..... If having one single function would mean changing hundreds or thousands=20 of callers, then there is an important sense in which one single=20 function would not be better. > NOBODY will write (message "30%-50% done") Admittedly the example was contrived, but I thought it was cool how one=20 can use % to delete parts of messages, something that is much worse than=20 quote restyling. More commonly people compute a message string S=20 somewhere else and then call (message S), and that does have real=20 problems with %, particularly in situations where an adversary has some=20 control over the contents of S. > >> It=E2=80=99s not intended to be =E2=80=9Csurreptitious=E2=80=9D or =E2= =80=9Chidden=E2=80=9D or anything like that, .... > That may be the case, but it _seems_ very much like it. If the intenti= on had actually been to be surreptitious, what more could have been done = than was actually done? Lots. We discussed and rejected more-=E2=80=9Csurreptitious=E2=80=9D opti= ons back before=20 this stuff was installed. For example, we discussed changing =E2=80=98for= mat=E2=80=99 to=20 behave like =E2=80=98format-message=E2=80=99 does now. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 09 15:42:49 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2017 19:42:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37407 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJPo1-0007g2-84 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 15:42:49 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:59863 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJPo0-0007fu-4X for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 15:42:48 -0400 Received: (qmail 94916 invoked by uid 3782); 9 Jun 2017 19:42:45 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C6FE9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.111.233]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 21:42:44 +0200 Received: (qmail 3784 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Jun 2017 19:41:42 -0000 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 19:41:42 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> References: <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Paul. On Thu, Jun 08, 2017 at 13:17:39 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 06/08/2017 10:34 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > YUCK! So we'd have both message and memo doing basically the > > samething, with different interfaces. > If it’s the API difference you object to, it’d be OK for the two > functions to have the same signature. It’s no big deal. It's not OK to have two functions doing the same thing. > > you've got two functions which are so close to each other, one > > single function would be better..... > If having one single function would mean changing hundreds or thousands > of callers, then there is an important sense in which one single > function would not be better. That depends solely on whether anybody's prepared to do the work. You're proposing changing `message' to `memo' for those callers anyway. If you do that, we will end up with a horrible mess, with two almost identical functions competing in the vast space of messaging where there are no quote characters in the format string. This would leave unsolved the problem of format strings containing both literal quote characters and quote characters for possible replacement by curlies. We should be looking firstly at where we want to end up, and only later at whether we can get there. I still maintain that the most satisfactory solution now available is for %` and %' to become part of the format string, as already described. > > NOBODY will write (message "30%-50% done") > Admittedly the example was contrived, but I thought it was cool how one > can use % to delete parts of messages, something that is much worse than > quote restyling. More commonly people compute a message string S > somewhere else and then call (message S), and that does have real > problems with %, particularly in situations where an adversary has some > control over the contents of S. Maybe, but that's a different problem. We should not be adding to it. > >> It’s not intended to be “surreptitious” or “hidden” or anything > >> like that, .... > > That may be the case, but it _seems_ very much like it. If the > > intention had actually been to be surreptitious, what more could > > have been done than was actually done? > Lots. We discussed and rejected more-“surreptitious” options back before > this stuff was installed. For example, we discussed changing ‘format’ to > behave like ‘format-message’ does now. In effect, that's what was actually done. `format-message' was introduced and `message' was switched unconditionally to use it, despite the serious problems this was bound to cause. Let me summarise the current state of the discussion. I have proposed restoring message's property of every format specifier starting with %, with every character which isn't % being a literal character. Two new format specifiers would be introduced, %` and %' to indicate the substitution by the user's preferred version of left and right single quote. This would render format strings containing these new specifiers unusable on Older Emacsen. This would be worked around by providing advice to message, to be applied by external packages using the new specifiers. There would be a significant amount of work amending format strings which currently use ` and ' to use %` and %'. I think the topic has been pretty thoroughly discussed. Are there any objections remaining to me implementing this change and committing it to master? -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 09 16:17:23 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2017 20:17:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37435 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJQLT-0008Tw-3f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:17:23 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:31823) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJQLR-0008Tj-Am for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:17:21 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v59KH6Pa014297 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 9 Jun 2017 20:17:07 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v59KH6MA005128 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 9 Jun 2017 20:17:06 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v59KH2kG020620; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 20:17:05 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 13:17:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Alan Mackenzie , Paul Eggert Subject: RE: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> In-Reply-To: <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6767.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > This would render format strings containing these new specifiers > unusable on Older Emacsen. This would be worked around by providing > advice to message, to be applied by external packages using the new > specifiers. Just what did you have in mind for that? > There would be a significant amount of work amending format strings > which currently use ` and ' to use %` and %'. That's the problem for Emacs maintainers. But the problem for 3rd-party code is much bigger, because it often needs to support more than just the latest release. Clement pointed this out well. A user, including a Lisp user, should be able to write ' or ` and get what s?he writes. No behind-the-scenes application of makeup. No prettying-up at all - you write ' and you get '. Simple. Clear. Lovely. Useful. No need for high-heels. > I think the topic has been pretty thoroughly discussed. Are there any > objections remaining to me implementing this change and committing it to > master? Sorry, but I cannot be in favor of this proposal, as I understand it so far. But I'm even less in favor of what's already been done: making quote-translation the default behavior. That's both a tragedy and a travesty. I cannot imagine what the maintainers were thinking when they let this one get through. It's fine to provide easy ways to _allow_ for different kinds of quote translation. But quote chars (including but not limited to ` and ') should NOT be translated by default. By default, chars should be respected for what they are. Emacs should not substitute other chars just because someone working on Emacs development considered the substitute chars prettier or more modern. That's nuts. One overly zealous coder wreaked havoc, and we'll be wrestling with the result for a long time. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 09 16:31:46 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2017 20:31:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37455 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJQZO-0000Ok-Do for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:31:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:50838) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJQZM-0000OY-BF for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:31:44 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dJQZG-0004DZ-91 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:31:39 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:60608) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dJQZA-0004CP-HP; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:31:32 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dJQZ9-0005Tr-W3; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:31:32 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> X-Spook: Emergency Landing Toxic BART Emergency Broadcast System X-Ran: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Alan Mackenzie wrote: > I think the topic has been pretty thoroughly discussed. Are there any > objections remaining to me implementing this change and committing it to > master? I object. This is a contentious issue, and I would like the maintainers to make an explicit decision before you change anything. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 09 16:39:27 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2017 20:39:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37466 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJQgp-0000Zh-Go for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:39:27 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:53287 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJQgn-0000ZZ-TT for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:39:26 -0400 Received: (qmail 17080 invoked by uid 3782); 9 Jun 2017 20:39:24 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C6FE9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.111.233]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 22:39:23 +0200 Received: (qmail 5626 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Jun 2017 20:38:20 -0000 Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 20:38:20 +0000 To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170609203820.GB3410@acm.fritz.box> References: <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Drew. On Fri, Jun 09, 2017 at 13:17:01 -0700, Drew Adams wrote: > > This would render format strings containing these new specifiers > > unusable on Older Emacsen. This would be worked around by providing > > advice to message, to be applied by external packages using the new > > specifiers. > Just what did you have in mind for that? That this advice, applied to message in Emacs <26, would strip the % from %` and %' in format strings. So that, for example, the format string "%`%s%'" would get converted to "`%s'" for older Emacsen. > > There would be a significant amount of work amending format strings > > which currently use ` and ' to use %` and %'. > That's the problem for Emacs maintainers. But the problem for > 3rd-party code is much bigger, because it often needs to support > more than just the latest release. Clement pointed this out well. This is the purpose of the above advice to message. > A user, including a Lisp user, should be able to write ' or ` and > get what s?he writes. No behind-the-scenes application of makeup. > No prettying-up at all - you write ' and you get '. Simple. Clear. > Lovely. Useful. No need for high-heels. I agree with you completely, which is why I am proposing this amendment. > > I think the topic has been pretty thoroughly discussed. Are there any > > objections remaining to me implementing this change and committing it to > > master? > Sorry, but I cannot be in favor of this proposal, as I understand > it so far. That puzzles me, since we seem to agree about everything else on this issue. > But I'm even less in favor of what's already been done: making > quote-translation the default behavior. That's both a tragedy > and a travesty. I cannot imagine what the maintainers were > thinking when they let this one get through. > It's fine to provide easy ways to _allow_ for different kinds of > quote translation. But quote chars (including but not limited to > ` and ') should NOT be translated by default. This is what I am proposing: a ` or ' in the format string should stand for itself, like any other character bar %. %` would get translated either to itself or a curly quote, depending on the user's settings. > By default, chars should be respected for what they are. Emacs > should not substitute other chars just because someone working > on Emacs development considered the substitute chars prettier > or more modern. That's nuts. One overly zealous coder wreaked > havoc, and we'll be wrestling with the result for a long time. I agree with you. In message format strings, % should be _the_ special character. We need one. We don't need more than one. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 09 17:05:27 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2017 21:05:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37470 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJR5y-0001Ac-Ni for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 17:05:26 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:40891) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJR5w-0001AP-GB for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 17:05:25 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v59L594N005504 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 9 Jun 2017 21:05:09 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v59L59ZN006556 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 9 Jun 2017 21:05:09 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v59L58pI026647; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 21:05:08 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 14:05:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: RE: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> <20170609203820.GB3410@acm.fritz.box> In-Reply-To: <20170609203820.GB3410@acm.fritz.box> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6767.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > That this advice, applied to message in Emacs <26, would strip the % > from %` and %' in format strings. So that, for example, the format > string "%`%s%'" would get converted to "`%s'" for older Emacsen. I suppose it's better than nothing. But I prefer to continue to ask that Emacs come to its senses about this whole quote-beautification exercise. > > A user, including a Lisp user, should be able to write ' or ` and > > get what s?he writes. No behind-the-scenes application of makeup. > > No prettying-up at all - you write ' and you get '. Simple. Clear. > > Lovely. Useful. No need for high-heels. >=20 > I agree with you completely, which is why I am proposing this amendment. You're accepting being automatically dressed up in high-heels, but you're proposing a set of overshoes that you can slip on over them, to cancel their effect. I'm still asking that we reverse course on the high-heels masquerade. It was misguided, and it seems quite unemacsy, to me. > > Sorry, but I cannot be in favor of this proposal, as I understand > > it so far. >=20 > That puzzles me, since we seem to agree about everything else on this > issue. See above. It may be better than nothing, but I'm still hoping that Emacs will come to its senses about this. > > It's fine to provide easy ways to _allow_ for different kinds of > > quote translation. But quote chars (including but not limited to > > ` and ') should NOT be translated by default. >=20 > This is what I am proposing: a ` or ' in the format string should stand > for itself, like any other character bar %. I agree with that, of course. It was a mistake to silently, and by default, make `message' handle other chars specially. > %` would get translated either to itself or a curly quote, > depending on the user's settings. User settings or code settings or both? Libraries need to be able to control the behavior by code. And users need to be able to control it too. (And conflicts need to be resolved.) So far, I intend to just bind `text-quoting-style' around code I'm interested in giving sane behavior. (But I'm not against having an advice that does essentially that for `format'.) > > By default, chars should be respected for what they are. Emacs > > should not substitute other chars just because someone working > > on Emacs development considered the substitute chars prettier > > or more modern. That's nuts. One overly zealous coder wreaked > > havoc, and we'll be wrestling with the result for a long time. >=20 > I agree with you. In message format strings, % should be _the_ special > character. We need one. We don't need more than one. And we should not have more than one. Note that with `text-quoting-style' we already have a way to reach inside `format' etc. and change the behavior. But I'm not against that - the scope can be controlled. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 09 17:45:05 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2017 21:45:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37479 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJRiL-00023V-1v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 17:45:05 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:60976) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJRiJ-00022l-Be for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 17:45:04 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FAA61600E3; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 14:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id yR6idu2eKRgX; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 14:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8360B1600E4; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 14:44:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 0f6S3KmnVgtI; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 14:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 231A01600E3; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 14:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie References: <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <3b2a119e-7c2e-e906-dea0-ae91aca80f33@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 14:44:54 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Glenn Morris , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 06/09/2017 12:41 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > It's not OK to have two functions doing the same thing. Nobody is proposing that. Although the proposed function is similar to=20 the message function, it differs in that it does not restyle quotes.=20 There is lots of precedent for having two functions with similar but not=20 identical behavior: for example, the error and user-error functions. >> If having one single function would mean changing hundreds or=20 thousands of callers, then there is an important sense in which one=20 single function would not be better. > > That depends solely on whether anybody's prepared to do the work. No, it also depends on people who have to deal with the modified code=20 afterwards, as the resulting formats would be harder to read. And it=20 depends not only on doing the work for Emacs itself, but also for=20 third-party software written in Elisp. These are significant costs. Users should not be required to litter their code with hard-to-read=20 formats like "Can%'t encode %`0x%x%' with this buffer%'s coding system"=20 to get decent quoting. This would be more error-prone than what we have=20 now, and although I do not object to adding support for new formats I=20 would object to requiring their use in place of what we have now. > You're proposing changing `message' to `memo' for those callers anyway= . No, existing callers such as (message "%s" filename) would continue to=20 operate as before, and would not need to be changed. > This would leave unsolved the problem of format strings containing=20 both literal quote characters and quote characters for possible=20 replacement by curlies. I don=E2=80=99t see this as a significant problem in practice. In practic= e,=20 formats typically want all quotes translated, or no quotes translated.=20 If I am wrong I would like to see practical examples of the problem=20 before worrying about possible solutions. One can address the problem=20 without making any changes to Emacs; whether changing Emacs would be=20 helpful depends on how the problem comes up in practice. >> We discussed and rejected more-=E2=80=9Csurreptitious=E2=80=9D option= s back before=20 his stuff was installed. For example, we discussed changing =E2=80=98form= at=E2=80=99 to=20 behave like =E2=80=98format-message=E2=80=99 does now. > > In effect, that's what was actually done. Not at all. Had we made the more-drastic change, we would have had to=20 rewrite calls like (format "\\`%s" not-word-symbol-re). This would have=20 been considerably more work, and would have resulted in far more=20 compatibility problems, than the change that was eventually installed. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 09 18:51:19 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2017 22:51:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37532 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJSkR-0003ZK-At for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 18:51:19 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:38978) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJSkP-0003Z6-IX for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 18:51:18 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v59Mp749003737 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 9 Jun 2017 22:51:07 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v59Mp73J011834 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 9 Jun 2017 22:51:07 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v59Mp46Q009558; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 22:51:05 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0846dd8a-804d-4df9-8a45-979a9d49b5d6@default> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 15:51:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Paul Eggert , Alan Mackenzie Subject: RE: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> <3b2a119e-7c2e-e906-dea0-ae91aca80f33@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <3b2a119e-7c2e-e906-dea0-ae91aca80f33@cs.ucla.edu> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6767.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > Although the proposed function is similar to the message > function, it differs in that it does not restyle quotes. It is function `message', not your proposed function `memo', that should not "restyle" quote chars. If you want a function that restyles quote chars then _that_ should be a new function. Existing code - and future code - that uses `message' should not have any such "restyling" imposed on it. If you had simply offered to add such a new function, I doubt that anyone would have complained. Seriously. Instead, you had to impose this incompatible and specialized prettification on the longstanding and ubiquitous, stalwart workhorse function `message'. That was a grave design error. It should never have been allowed. > it depends not only on doing the work for Emacs itself, but also for > third-party software written in Elisp. These are significant costs. Really? You are actually arguing for concern about 3rd-party maintenance work now? This is like DJT complaining about fake news from others. Where was that concern when you hijacked `message'? Where was your proposal to create another function, then? > Users should not be required to litter their code with hard-to-read > formats like "Can%'t encode %`0x%x%' with this buffer%'s coding system" > to get decent quoting. And now you are concerned about users? Where was that concern when you imposed an incompatible change on `message'? > existing callers such as (message "%s" filename) would continue > to operate as before, and would not need to be changed. Where was your concern about letting `message' callers be able to continue operating as before, before? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 09 20:21:08 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jun 2017 00:21:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37569 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJU9L-0005aO-Rb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 20:21:07 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:52100) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJU9J-0005ZZ-LT for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 09 Jun 2017 20:21:06 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51CC31600D3; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 17:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id FIKV6e-VFxMa; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 17:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC5D1600E7; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 17:20:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id AC8qWtuMhCvr; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 17:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (unknown [47.153.184.153]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7D1031600D3; Fri, 9 Jun 2017 17:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Drew Adams , Alan Mackenzie References: <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> <3b2a119e-7c2e-e906-dea0-ae91aca80f33@cs.ucla.edu> <0846dd8a-804d-4df9-8a45-979a9d49b5d6@default> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <94369fcb-ce5f-17be-ced7-0e30bf1dd29f@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 17:20:58 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0846dd8a-804d-4df9-8a45-979a9d49b5d6@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Drew Adams wrote: > Where was that concern when you hijacked `message'? There is no need for personal and inflammatory language like that. That being said, I can try to describe the software engineering concerns.= The=20 problem with Emacs 24 message quoting had several possible solutions, non= e of=20 them ideal. In practice the approach taken in Emacs 25 requires far fewer= =20 changes to existing code than the proposed quote-related format specs, an= d that=20 is a significant win. Although quote-related format specs also have advan= tages,=20 these advantages do not clearly outweigh that win and the proposed specs = have=20 further problems of their own. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 10 03:09:13 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jun 2017 07:09:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37721 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJaWG-0008Pv-QM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 03:09:12 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:55541) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJaWF-0008Ph-KA for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 03:09:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dJaW9-00057Y-Fo for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 03:09:06 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:42428) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dJaW2-00056E-FC; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 03:08:58 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4094 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dJaW1-0005AN-0l; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 03:08:57 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 10:08:40 +0300 Message-Id: <83k24k7213.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Glenn Morris , John Wiegley In-reply-to: <2f1sqsucm4.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> (message from Glenn Morris on Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:31:31 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <20170603205331.GA2130@acm.fritz.box> <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> <2f1sqsucm4.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: acm@muc.de, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: Glenn Morris > Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2017 16:31:31 -0400 > Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > > I think the topic has been pretty thoroughly discussed. Are there any > > objections remaining to me implementing this change and committing it to > > master? > > I object. This is a contentious issue, and I would like the maintainers > to make an explicit decision before you change anything. As far as things concern me, there will be no significant changes in these facilities for at least some time, unless there's an overwhelming agreement for such changes (which this thread and previous ones doesn't seem to show). We've rocked this boat enough; IMO we should now leave it where it is for some time and let users get used to it and bring us some feedback, before we embark on further adventures. John? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 10 06:02:11 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jun 2017 10:02:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37816 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJdDe-0003tr-Tb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 06:02:11 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:20915 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJdDc-0003ti-Rh for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 06:02:09 -0400 Received: (qmail 43037 invoked by uid 3782); 10 Jun 2017 10:02:07 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FC46B22.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.196.107.34]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:02:06 +0200 Received: (qmail 3189 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Jun 2017 10:01:03 -0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 10:01:03 +0000 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170610100103.GA2960@acm.fritz.box> References: <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> <3b2a119e-7c2e-e906-dea0-ae91aca80f33@cs.ucla.edu> <0846dd8a-804d-4df9-8a45-979a9d49b5d6@default> <94369fcb-ce5f-17be-ced7-0e30bf1dd29f@cs.ucla.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <94369fcb-ce5f-17be-ced7-0e30bf1dd29f@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Paul. On Fri, Jun 09, 2017 at 17:20:58 -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > Drew Adams wrote: > > Where was that concern when you hijacked `message'? > There is no need for personal and inflammatory language like that. I think there is. In a group of people who are invariably nice to each other, there is the opportunity for rogues to exploit that niceness, and to do deeply unpleasant things without comeback. In this case, you are that rogue, and it is about time somebody called you out on your behaviour. Before committing changes which are controversial, or which will adversely affect others, it's expected to have a full and open discussion on emacs-devel. You surreptitiously committed this backward incompatible change to `message' on 2015-08-25, without first having initiated such a discussion. Because of the way you did this, those incompatibilities remained hidden until they hit another developer (me) in a thoroughly unpleasant way some time later. You did indeed hijack `message'. You changed a generally useful and universal function into one with caveats and gotchas to satisfy your own personal preferences and, likely, a desire to impose those preferences on Emacs users generally. I suggest that you now apologise for what you did back in August 2015, promising never to do the same thing again. [ .... ] -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 10 06:52:58 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jun 2017 10:52:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37827 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJe0o-00054C-0i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 06:52:58 -0400 Received: from randomsample.de ([5.45.97.173]:35215) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJe0m-000544-Mc for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 06:52:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=randomsample.de; s=a; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From; bh=bzZqnSWu3vJqPKj0fPOThE6zSSJmxWGmH8YJHGlQD/s=; b=R95do6Q54crQOgQkhrQjH+4VaP/k325OWwX6TSpZdgjqgH3sKkFQNHkXMvRxwJ1M4RGKAN65EcuLK9B78SOZfqopaq7PLw5biZLo6FWGI+ELEhdIbs078OwHvUHLTgZs; Received: from ip4d1681d2.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de ([77.22.129.210] helo=isaac) by randomsample.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1dJe0k-0005p4-9b; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:52:54 +0200 From: David Engster To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. In-Reply-To: <20170610100103.GA2960@acm.fritz.box> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Sat, 10 Jun 2017 10:01:03 +0000") References: <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> <3b2a119e-7c2e-e906-dea0-ae91aca80f33@cs.ucla.edu> <0846dd8a-804d-4df9-8a45-979a9d49b5d6@default> <94369fcb-ce5f-17be-ced7-0e30bf1dd29f@cs.ucla.edu> <20170610100103.GA2960@acm.fritz.box> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.2 (gnu/linux) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:52:44 +0200 Message-ID: <87ink4f72b.fsf@engster.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Alan Mackenzie writes: > I suggest that you now apologise for what you did back in August 2015, > promising never to do the same thing again. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2016-05/msg00324.html What more do you want? I'm not happy with that change either, but Paul has worked on Emacs for 25 years, with almost 5000 commits on record. This does not make him infallible, but calling him a 'rogue' is just unacceptable. -David From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 10 07:48:45 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jun 2017 11:48:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37841 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJesn-00089C-MG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 07:48:45 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:44776) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJesl-00088z-5M for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 07:48:43 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dJesc-0004aK-Li for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 07:48:37 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:52734) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dJesc-0004aD-I0; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 07:48:34 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4592 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dJesb-0003xI-Ir; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 07:48:34 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 14:48:17 +0300 Message-Id: <834lvo6p32.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: David Engster In-reply-to: <87ink4f72b.fsf@engster.org> (message from David Engster on Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:52:44 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> <3b2a119e-7c2e-e906-dea0-ae91aca80f33@cs.ucla.edu> <0846dd8a-804d-4df9-8a45-979a9d49b5d6@default> <94369fcb-ce5f-17be-ced7-0e30bf1dd29f@cs.ucla.edu> <20170610100103.GA2960@acm.fritz.box> <87ink4f72b.fsf@engster.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: acm@muc.de, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: David Engster > Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 12:52:44 +0200 > Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2016-05/msg00324.html > > What more do you want? > > I'm not happy with that change either, but Paul has worked on Emacs for > 25 years, with almost 5000 commits on record. This does not make him > infallible, but calling him a 'rogue' is just unacceptable. Agreed. We all make mistakes, and should be tolerable to those made in good faith by others. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 10 09:02:08 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jun 2017 13:02:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37887 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJg1n-0002wB-Ru for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 09:02:08 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:39478 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJg1m-0002u1-1E for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 09:02:06 -0400 Received: (qmail 98023 invoked by uid 3782); 10 Jun 2017 13:02:04 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FC46B22.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.196.107.34]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 15:02:03 +0200 Received: (qmail 5670 invoked by uid 1000); 10 Jun 2017 13:01:01 -0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 13:01:01 +0000 To: David Engster Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170610130100.GB2960@acm.fritz.box> References: <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> <3b2a119e-7c2e-e906-dea0-ae91aca80f33@cs.ucla.edu> <0846dd8a-804d-4df9-8a45-979a9d49b5d6@default> <94369fcb-ce5f-17be-ced7-0e30bf1dd29f@cs.ucla.edu> <20170610100103.GA2960@acm.fritz.box> <87ink4f72b.fsf@engster.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87ink4f72b.fsf@engster.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, David. On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 12:52:44 +0200, David Engster wrote: > Alan Mackenzie writes: > > I suggest that you now apologise for what you did back in August 2015, > > promising never to do the same thing again. > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2016-05/msg00324.html > What more do you want? An apology and an undertaking not to repeat the offense. What you quote is colloquially known as a "non-apology". If you look carefully at it, you'll see it attributes the blame to somebody else ("With the benefit of hindsight, I now see that I was mistaken about how strongly some users are attached to quoting `like this'") and that attribution is somewhat insulting and one-sided, it makes no offer to fix things, and the undertaking not to repeat is less than wholehearted ("I will _strive_ ... to publicize ... on emacs-devel _more_ _prominently_"). Does that ostensible apology give you much confidence that Paul won't do the same thing again? I have my doubts. > I'm not happy with that change either, but Paul has worked on Emacs for > 25 years, with almost 5000 commits on record. This does not make him > infallible, but calling him a 'rogue' is just unacceptable. I really wish you hadn't accused me of that after snipping my text so that people couldn't see the two together. What I actually wrote was "IN THIS CASE, you are that rogue", meaning in this particular instance. I stand by that allegation. What I didn't do was to call Paul a rogue in general. I'm clearly not happy with this change. I'd be as unhappy about it if Paul had already written 50,000 commits, or it had been written by RMS. But, to repeat myself, I'm most unhappy that it was slipped into Emacs bypassing the customary discussion process. It's a non backward-compatible change to a critical bit of Emacs. `message' was previously a logical, strong function, and it has been turned into a messy function which sort of works most of the time. I don't think this is good. > -David -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 10 09:40:04 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jun 2017 13:40:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37901 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJgcW-00042z-Ei for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 09:40:04 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:59473) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJgcU-00042S-Hu for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 09:40:02 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dJgcL-0005wr-88 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 09:39:57 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:55270) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dJgcL-0005wn-4U; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 09:39:53 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1087 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dJgcJ-0003qu-Qa; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 09:39:52 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 16:39:33 +0300 Message-Id: <83y3t055d6.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20170610130100.GB2960@acm.fritz.box> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Sat, 10 Jun 2017 13:01:01 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> <3b2a119e-7c2e-e906-dea0-ae91aca80f33@cs.ucla.edu> <0846dd8a-804d-4df9-8a45-979a9d49b5d6@default> <94369fcb-ce5f-17be-ced7-0e30bf1dd29f@cs.ucla.edu> <20170610100103.GA2960@acm.fritz.box> <87ink4f72b.fsf@engster.org> <20170610130100.GB2960@acm.fritz.box> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, deng@randomsample.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 13:01:01 +0000 > From: Alan Mackenzie > Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2016-05/msg00324.html > > > What more do you want? > > An apology and an undertaking not to repeat the offense. It wasn't an offense. It was a good-faith mistake. Please accept what the others think about this, and please don't blow this out of proportion. > But, to repeat myself, I'm most unhappy that it was slipped into Emacs > bypassing the customary discussion process. Veteran contributors -- and Paul is definitely among them -- aren't required to wait for a discussion before they push their commits. When to start a discussion before making a change is up to their judgment call. That is how Emacs development works for many years. I agree that in this case the change should have been discussed more thoroughly in advance -- but that is exactly what Paul said he regrets he hadn't done. So the lesson has been learned, and we are now wiser about this and similar issues that could come up in the future. > It's a non backward-compatible change to a critical bit of Emacs. > `message' was previously a logical, strong function, and it has been > turned into a messy function which sort of works most of the time. IME, it works quite well all of the time. Where it has some deficiencies, I'm sure we will with time improve it so it works even better. That's my experience in Emacs for many years. And with that, I think it's high time to end this discussion. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 10 11:28:52 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jun 2017 15:28:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39052 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJiJo-0006nh-68 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 11:28:52 -0400 Received: from mail-wr0-f193.google.com ([209.85.128.193]:35830) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJiJm-0006nS-1e for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 11:28:50 -0400 Received: by mail-wr0-f193.google.com with SMTP id g76so12755508wrd.2 for <23425@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 08:28:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jFddnCkP0LTAlo2KbnUNXBQJbSZoJKGthcG0jMPk8p4=; b=OqS8oJYo+7Rpa7z9WKwcSLXw90HbjrRlBq+R0V8NRBGeCmwsiaPsThP+vlf/A43NhY 1923ou0QoGqO0z2IwTqBYWoRjwSPZfSgp4900cihTKMP2yNdVGFxohny+1LBc5LS/5oL F/h1+LfsNiKvq3X8HwYDrZRffPuDpwzD2J2cDV63r97i3LkSpvnRTG6JYZArD2KRNQbY yAzgeW7Yblf8NnYxSn6Urb56Qh9+eq3/3u2YUE/xy9pAZ84+nSgfn/y7pfDUInzdm8Ru 0jbwaW1/s3AaGpgZVCO5r+w/6L65AY9FVdDHpZvl0ZHaOYBlB+mow60XkpgXdHcxRIfG lczA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jFddnCkP0LTAlo2KbnUNXBQJbSZoJKGthcG0jMPk8p4=; b=WvO/XtD6D21KzZ5aZmMSzLZyJSVWXAMpEOiC7TGKWPsMYSV0UiX9WWxAvnbtH2i4W6 unOoPYcyfj/3T5V1YzqZtuq1d/h9YJkUOcVTPHi9+pFkX2oqKaMhVoIRElOk725EEWQP cfsdCJ6ytvDl+1LjZfUK5tts3RcqF8WywYJlw4BdPJLX9iudlSAq6WnT9iDUFLA2ymEQ aWZnhEcQxvrWrJ6IV0CYtiDAB4QBXdwU6HNMw1yvPsW+hrjoJ+LprDYfuDjaJnH011p0 v+ZRL5rHhqOjUS3RI/dkVgj6ZbnildbHfz6HcQuTn5QpRoYwBLNVplEssx7UGqi494j5 IgTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOw6oWNQ7E/rGYe0X4+j+tfIIHfxEK1Tp/F2hAP2zYp1wrZw5b/P PH0QKeK+myuTzbDWRHc= X-Received: by 10.28.139.18 with SMTP id n18mr3098558wmd.100.1497108524180; Sat, 10 Jun 2017 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([185.105.174.193]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 18sm2072183wmt.6.2017.06.10.08.28.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 10 Jun 2017 08:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. To: Alan Mackenzie , David Engster References: <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> <3b2a119e-7c2e-e906-dea0-ae91aca80f33@cs.ucla.edu> <0846dd8a-804d-4df9-8a45-979a9d49b5d6@default> <94369fcb-ce5f-17be-ced7-0e30bf1dd29f@cs.ucla.edu> <20170610100103.GA2960@acm.fritz.box> <87ink4f72b.fsf@engster.org> <20170610130100.GB2960@acm.fritz.box> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: <81ae020c-92c8-3a17-1525-93695af01c02@yandex.ru> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 18:28:41 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:54.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/54.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170610130100.GB2960@acm.fritz.box> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: Paul Eggert , 23425@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 6/10/17 4:01 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > I'm clearly not happy with this change. I'd be as unhappy about it if > Paul had already written 50,000 commits, or it had been written by RMS. > But, to repeat myself, I'm most unhappy that it was slipped into Emacs > bypassing the customary discussion process. Much as I dislike this and related changes, and the enormous timewaste that ensued, the change had been approved by the back-then maintainer, in an even more broken form (which has been improved upon somewhat since). Who had never voiced a significant change in his position in any subsequent discussions, IIRC. So it's hard to blame Paul for the entirety of the problem. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jun 11 06:04:56 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jun 2017 10:04:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39772 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJzjs-0007Sx-5f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 06:04:56 -0400 Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:64045 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJzjr-0007Sp-2j for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 06:04:55 -0400 Received: (qmail 7713 invoked by uid 3782); 11 Jun 2017 10:04:53 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C6984.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.105.132]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 12:04:52 +0200 Received: (qmail 4381 invoked by uid 1000); 11 Jun 2017 10:03:48 -0000 Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 10:03:47 +0000 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Message-ID: <20170611100347.GA4280@acm.fritz.box> References: <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> <3b2a119e-7c2e-e906-dea0-ae91aca80f33@cs.ucla.edu> <0846dd8a-804d-4df9-8a45-979a9d49b5d6@default> <94369fcb-ce5f-17be-ced7-0e30bf1dd29f@cs.ucla.edu> <20170610100103.GA2960@acm.fritz.box> <87ink4f72b.fsf@engster.org> <20170610130100.GB2960@acm.fritz.box> <83y3t055d6.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83y3t055d6.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, deng@randomsample.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, Eli. On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 16:39:33 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > It's a non backward-compatible change to a critical bit of Emacs. > > `message' was previously a logical, strong function, and it has been > > turned into a messy function which sort of works most of the time. > IME, it [`message'] works quite well all of the time. It does not work at all for outputting ` and '. Ugly workarounds are required for that. > Where it has some deficiencies, I'm sure we will with time improve it > so it works even better. That's my experience in Emacs for many years. If it doesn't get fixed now, it will never be fixed. > And with that, I think it's high time to end this discussion. How about fixing this bug first? -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jun 11 10:38:16 2017 Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jun 2017 14:38:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41237 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dK40O-0000lQ-9c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 10:38:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:34611) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dK40M-0000lD-K8 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 10:38:15 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dK40E-0005Ga-3N for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 10:38:09 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:54112) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dK40D-0005GU-W8; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 10:38:06 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2163 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dK40D-00028J-2q; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 10:38:05 -0400 Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 17:37:51 +0300 Message-Id: <83shj6614w.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20170611100347.GA4280@acm.fritz.box> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Sun, 11 Jun 2017 10:03:47 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. References: <20170608173400.GA2662@acm.fritz.box> <20170609194141.GA3410@acm.fritz.box> <3b2a119e-7c2e-e906-dea0-ae91aca80f33@cs.ucla.edu> <0846dd8a-804d-4df9-8a45-979a9d49b5d6@default> <94369fcb-ce5f-17be-ced7-0e30bf1dd29f@cs.ucla.edu> <20170610100103.GA2960@acm.fritz.box> <87ink4f72b.fsf@engster.org> <20170610130100.GB2960@acm.fritz.box> <83y3t055d6.fsf@gnu.org> <20170611100347.GA4280@acm.fritz.box> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 23425 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org, deng@randomsample.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 10:03:47 +0000 > Cc: deng@randomsample.de, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > IME, it [`message'] works quite well all of the time. > > It does not work at all for outputting ` and '. Ugly workarounds are > required for that. We will have to disagree on the ugliness part. Modulo that, it's quite possible to output these two characters. > > Where it has some deficiencies, I'm sure we will with time improve it > > so it works even better. That's my experience in Emacs for many years. > > If it doesn't get fixed now, it will never be fixed. It will, if we the motion to do that ever gets more support, or if we find some grave problems we are not aware today. > > And with that, I think it's high time to end this discussion. > > How about fixing this bug first? I'm sorry, but I don't see anything that needs to be fixed at this time. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 19 21:39:37 2017 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Jun 2017 01:39:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56777 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dN88m-0003jd-P4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:39:36 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35888) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dN88k-0003jP-V6 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:39:35 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dN88f-00074r-Dc for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:39:29 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:54644) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dN88f-00074h-AB for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:39:29 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dN88e-000596-Vu for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:39:29 -0400 Subject: control message for bug 23425 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.99.98) Message-Id: From: Glenn Morris Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:39:28 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -3.4 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.4 (---) tag 23425 notabug wontfix close 23425 From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:09:37 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator