GNU bug report logs - #22546
Download-Page is "hiding" what the options actually are

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Robin Vobruba <mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-guix <at> gnu.org
Subject: Download-Page is "hiding" what the options actually are
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 18:09:12 +0100

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Being new to Guix, i went to the Download page:
https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/download/

immediately saw the 3 big options
read their title/names
was confused what the difference might be between "GuixSD" and "Guix Binary"
could not find anything inside these 3 option's boxes that would help me
read the text below them
read the text above them
finally understood that the first option is the OS, and the second is only
the packag-manager

i think that the first option should have a title saying "Operating System
install medium" or the like, and the second "Package-Manager for arbitrary
Linux".
nobody is going to read a small, regular text formatted, two lines long
paragraph on a download page, but this is very crucial information for
everyone that gets there.


... sounds like a very good project! :-)

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #10 received at 22546-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: ludo <at> gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès)
To: Robin Vobruba <mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 22546-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#22546: Download-Page is "hiding" what the options actually are
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2016 21:04:09 +0100

Robin Vobruba <mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com> skribis:

> Being new to Guix, i went to the Download page:
> https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/download/
>
> immediately saw the 3 big options
> read their title/names
> was confused what the difference might be between "GuixSD" and "Guix Binary"
> could not find anything inside these 3 option's boxes that would help me
> read the text below them
> read the text above them
> finally understood that the first option is the OS, and the second is only
> the packag-manager

I think I’ll have to disagree.  :-)

For each option there’s a line right below the title saying what this
is.  I’m no expert in “information architecture” but I’m under the
impression that there’s little margin for improvement.

More importantly, I think that someone who cannot be bothered to read
this will not install the thing at all since installing requires you to
read the much longer installation instructions.  Of course we want them
to be as small as possible, but I don’t think that’ll be a single line
anytime soon.

I hope this makes sense!

Thanks for your feedback,
Ludo’.

Message #13 received at 22546 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Nils Gillmann <niasterisk <at> grrlz.net>
To: 22546 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: ludo <at> gnu.org, mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#22546: Download-Page is "hiding" what the options actually are
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 00:30:21 +0100

ludo <at> gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Robin Vobruba <mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com> skribis:
>
>> Being new to Guix, i went to the Download page:
>> https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/download/
>>
>> immediately saw the 3 big options
>> read their title/names
>> was confused what the difference might be between "GuixSD" and "Guix Binary"
>> could not find anything inside these 3 option's boxes that would help me
>> read the text below them
>> read the text above them
>> finally understood that the first option is the OS, and the second is only
>> the packag-manager
>
> I think I’ll have to disagree.  :-)
>
> For each option there’s a line right below the title saying what this
> is.  I’m no expert in “information architecture” but I’m under the
> impression that there’s little margin for improvement.
>

SD has a different Symbol than Guix, which works okay for me with
no colorblindness and no other visual problems.
But maybe it could help to highlight the 'System Distribution'
and to visually (with colors in accordance to w3 disability
standards) set apart GUIX from GUIXSD boxes?
Or, like fr example TAILS who now have some kind of questionaire
tour to the right download.

There are some things I am collection thoughts on, where the
actual output of them is slowed down by working on too many texts
at the same time.

> More importantly, I think that someone who cannot be bothered to read
> this will not install the thing at all since installing requires you to
> read the much longer installation instructions.  Of course we want them
> to be as small as possible, but I don’t think that’ll be a single line
> anytime soon.
>
> I hope this makes sense!
>
> Thanks for your feedback,
> Ludo’.
>
>
>

-- 
ng

Message #16 received at 22546 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mathieu Lirzin <mthl <at> gnu.org>
To: Robin Vobruba <mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com>
Cc: ludo <at> gnu.org, 22546 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#22546: Download-Page is "hiding" what the options actually are
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 10:10:35 +0100

Robin Vobruba <mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Being new to Guix, i went to the Download page:
> https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/download/
>
> immediately saw the 3 big options
> read their title/names
> was confused what the difference might be between "GuixSD" and "Guix
> Binary"
> could not find anything inside these 3 option's boxes that would help
> me
> read the text below them
> read the text above them
> finally understood that the first option is the OS, and the second is
> only the packag-manager
>
> i think that the first option should have a title saying "Operating
> System install medium" or the like, and the second "Package-Manager
> for arbitrary Linux".
> nobody is going to read a small, regular text formatted, two lines
> long paragraph on a download page, but this is very crucial
> information for everyone that gets there.

I would not say that the options are hidden, however I agree that there
is room for improving the clarity of the different possible choices.
For example, by having more distinctive graphics for the different
options.  OTOH, I don't think this is a priority giving the current
state of Guix development.  As Ludo said, Guix and GuixSD are relatively
involving in regards of users' attention and patience, by requiring
reading some documentation.

Maybe a small improvement could be to emphasize the terms “GNU/Linux
distribution” and/or “operating system” for GuixSD.

What about replacing these?

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
As of version 0.9.0, the Guix System Distribution can be installed...
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

  “As of version 0.9.0, the Guix System Distribution (GuixSD) is an
  incarnation of the GNU operating system which can be installed...”

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
USB installer of the Guix System Distribution.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

  “USB installer of the GNU/Linux Guix System Distribution.”


Ludo: is the terminology correct?  are these changes acceptable?

--
Mathieu Lirzin

Message #19 received at 22546 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Robin Vobruba <mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com>
To: Mathieu Lirzin <mthl <at> gnu.org>
Cc: ludo <at> gnu.org, 22546 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#22546: Download-Page is "hiding" what the options actually are
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 10:46:42 +0100

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

the thing is, if one is not from this community (or a similar one), one
will not know what "System Distribution" means. it is a very abstract term,
and can mean anything. it is not self explanatory, and while "Operating
System" might not be as exact a description as SD (not that i would know,
but i imagine so, as you have chosen the later), it is a term that surely
everyone will know that comes to this page, and that is good enough for
most people, especially if it does not replace, but rather augment "System
Distribution", as a descriptive addition to the box.
people not reading bigger junks of text on a download page does not mean
they will be unable to follow a lengthy description for the installation.
the download page is there to download, not inform the user; click, click,
done! that is its purpose, and to give the required information to choose
what to download in as little time as possible. there are 3 choices. surely
it is nor necessary to read a 2 line text to be able to choose.


2016-02-08 10:10 GMT+01:00 Mathieu Lirzin <mthl <at> gnu.org>:

> Robin Vobruba <mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Being new to Guix, i went to the Download page:
> > https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/download/
> >
> > immediately saw the 3 big options
> > read their title/names
> > was confused what the difference might be between "GuixSD" and "Guix
> > Binary"
> > could not find anything inside these 3 option's boxes that would help
> > me
> > read the text below them
> > read the text above them
> > finally understood that the first option is the OS, and the second is
> > only the packag-manager
> >
> > i think that the first option should have a title saying "Operating
> > System install medium" or the like, and the second "Package-Manager
> > for arbitrary Linux".
> > nobody is going to read a small, regular text formatted, two lines
> > long paragraph on a download page, but this is very crucial
> > information for everyone that gets there.
>
> I would not say that the options are hidden, however I agree that there
> is room for improving the clarity of the different possible choices.
> For example, by having more distinctive graphics for the different
> options.  OTOH, I don't think this is a priority giving the current
> state of Guix development.  As Ludo said, Guix and GuixSD are relatively
> involving in regards of users' attention and patience, by requiring
> reading some documentation.
>
> Maybe a small improvement could be to emphasize the terms “GNU/Linux
> distribution” and/or “operating system” for GuixSD.
>
> What about replacing these?
>
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> As of version 0.9.0, the Guix System Distribution can be installed...
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
>   “As of version 0.9.0, the Guix System Distribution (GuixSD) is an
>   incarnation of the GNU operating system which can be installed...”
>
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> USB installer of the Guix System Distribution.
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
>   “USB installer of the GNU/Linux Guix System Distribution.”
>
>
> Ludo: is the terminology correct?  are these changes acceptable?
>
> --
> Mathieu Lirzin
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #22 received at 22546 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: ludo <at> gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès)
To: Mathieu Lirzin <mthl <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 22546 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Robin Vobruba <mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#22546: Download-Page is "hiding" what the options actually are
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 15:06:44 +0100

Mathieu Lirzin <mthl <at> gnu.org> skribis:

> What about replacing these?
>
> As of version 0.9.0, the Guix System Distribution can be installed...
>
>   “As of version 0.9.0, the Guix System Distribution (GuixSD) is an
>   incarnation of the GNU operating system which can be installed...”
>
> USB installer of the Guix System Distribution.
>
>   “USB installer of the GNU/Linux Guix System Distribution.”

Sounds good to me, and hopefully clearer indeed.  Feel free to push.

Thank you,
Ludo’.

Message #25 received at 22546 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: myglc2 <myglc2 <at> gmail.com>
To: 22546 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: ludo <at> gnu.org, mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#22546: Download-Page is "hiding" what the options actually are
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 11:54:35 -0500

ludo <at> gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Robin Vobruba <mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com> skribis:
>
>> Being new to Guix, i went to the Download page:
>> https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/download/
>>
>> immediately saw the 3 big options
>> read their title/names
>> was confused what the difference might be between "GuixSD" and "Guix Binary"
>> could not find anything inside these 3 option's boxes that would help me
>> read the text below them
>> read the text above them
>> finally understood that the first option is the OS, and the second is only
>> the packag-manager
>
> I think I’ll have to disagree.  :-)
>
> For each option there’s a line right below the title saying what this
> is.  I’m no expert in “information architecture” but I’m under the
> impression that there’s little margin for improvement.

You are too close to Guix to appreciate this user's confusion.

> More importantly, I think that someone who cannot be bothered to read
> this will not install the thing at all since installing requires you to
> read the much longer installation instructions.

It is a mistake to think this way. 

During the first few moments of checking out Guix a user is looking for
clues about how well "wrapped" it is. She is "using" your web site. If
the experience of using your web site is difficult it signals that the
software is difficult. Is this what you want?

> Of course we want them to be as small as possible, but I don’t think
> that’ll be a single line anytime soon.

The Guix web page and doc are very beautiful and detailed. But they do
not clearly convey the relationship between Guix and GuixSD. This is why
you have had to use so many puzzeling words on the download page.

I have drawn two diagrams that illustrate and address this issue.  They
are posted it on gmane.comp.gnu.guix.devel under the subject 'Guix vs
GuixSD'.

I suggest that you discuss the diagrams and agree on a top-level diagram
that explains the Guix-verse. Once you have that, you can use that
diagram on the download page to make download choices easy.

Message #28 received at 22546 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Leo Famulari <leo <at> famulari.name>
To: myglc2 <myglc2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 22546 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#22546: Download-Page is "hiding" what the options actually are
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 17:03:20 -0500

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:54:35AM -0500, myglc2 wrote:
> ludo <at> gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
> 
> > Robin Vobruba <mls.robin.vobruba <at> gmail.com> skribis:
> >
> >> Being new to Guix, i went to the Download page:
> >> https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/download/
> >>
> >> immediately saw the 3 big options
> >> read their title/names
> >> was confused what the difference might be between "GuixSD" and "Guix Binary"
> >> could not find anything inside these 3 option's boxes that would help me
> >> read the text below them
> >> read the text above them
> >> finally understood that the first option is the OS, and the second is only
> >> the packag-manager
> >
> > I think I’ll have to disagree.  :-)
> >
> > For each option there’s a line right below the title saying what this
> > is.  I’m no expert in “information architecture” but I’m under the
> > impression that there’s little margin for improvement.
> 
> You are too close to Guix to appreciate this user's confusion.

This is an important point. It's hard to go back and re-inhabit the
beginner's mind. But new users do skim.

We have to decide what level of skimming we are willing to "support".
Sometimes I can tell on #guix that users have not even glanced at the
manual.

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