From stephen.berman@gmx.net Mon Feb 9 08:04:45 2009 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 9 Feb 2009 16:04:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA autolearn=no version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n19G4b7m019790 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2009 08:04:38 -0800 Received: from mail.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:58352 helo=mx10.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LWYan-0005EB-AV for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:02:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LWYcc-0006O7-AI for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:04:35 -0500 Received: from mail.gmx.net ([213.165.64.20]:33526) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LWYcb-0006Nr-Po for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:04:34 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 09 Feb 2009 16:04:32 -0000 Received: from i59F56E1E.versanet.de (EHLO escher.local.home) [89.245.110.30] by mail.gmx.net (mp007) with SMTP; 09 Feb 2009 17:04:32 +0100 X-Authenticated: #20778731 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+bAwMHL1ebs9Nsbleaa6hiyxI22P3jZoW826HG77 vzC9SYnNp98fZZ Received: by escher.local.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6BA4D1D0B83; Mon, 9 Feb 2009 17:04:31 +0100 (CET) From: Stephen Berman To: emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org Subject: 23.0.90; default-frame-alist: Invalid function: (menu-bar-lines . 1) Sender: steve@escher.local.home Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:04:31 +0100 Message-ID: <87zlgvy4ts.fsf@escher.local.home> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.49 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) 1. emacs -Q 2. M-x customize-variable RET default-frame-alist RET 3. Custom buffer shows: Default Frame Alist: Parameter: menu-bar-lines Value: 1 Parameter: tool-bar-lines Value: 1 State: CHANGED outside Customize; operating on it here may be unreliable. 4. Click "State" button, select "Show Saved Lisp Expresion". Custom buffer now shows: default-frame-alist: nil State: CHANGED outside Customize; operating on it here may be unreliable. (lisp) The above just shows that Emacs sets a non-STANDARD default for default-frame-alist. Now comes the bug: 5. Let ~/.emacs and/or custom-file contain no setting of default-frame-alist. Invoke emacs (i.e. user-init-file is read). 6. Repeat step 2 above, the Custom buffer is again as in step 3. 7. Change the values of menu-bar-lines and tool-bar-lines to 0, then click button "Save for current session". Custom buffer now shows: Default Frame Alist: INS DEL Parameter: menu-bar-lines Value: 0 INS DEL Parameter: tool-bar-lines Value: 0 INS State: SAVED and set. 8. Click button "Erase customizations" => Emacs beeps, shows message "Invalid function: (menu-bar-lines . 1)" If in step 8 I click the button "Save for future sessions" and then repeat steps 5 and 6, the display is as in step 7, and doing step 8 results in the same error. If after step 6 I click "Erase customizations" without changing any value, then the entries are flushed and the state is: STANDARD. But when I then repeat steps 5 and 6 again, the display is again as in 3. In GNU Emacs 23.0.90.2 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.14.4) of 2009-02-09 on escher Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10502000 Important settings: value of $LC_ALL: nil value of $LC_COLLATE: nil value of $LC_CTYPE: nil value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil value of $LC_MONETARY: nil value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil value of $LC_TIME: nil value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8 value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=local locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix default-enable-multibyte-characters: t From stephen.berman@gmx.net Mon Feb 9 12:32:56 2009 Received: (at 2249) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 9 Feb 2009 20:32:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n19KWqDv022769 for <2249@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 9 Feb 2009 12:32:53 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 09 Feb 2009 20:32:46 -0000 Received: from i59F56E1E.versanet.de (EHLO escher.local.home) [89.245.110.30] by mail.gmx.net (mp051) with SMTP; 09 Feb 2009 21:32:46 +0100 X-Authenticated: #20778731 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19YnHwWJdJYlMPksVhwEBE48bMXH5LxS05cwlx9ga 91CsXzB4y2bqY6 Received: by escher.local.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C92401D1513; Mon, 9 Feb 2009 21:32:44 +0100 (CET) From: Stephen Berman To: 2249@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#2249: 23.0.90; default-frame-alist: Invalid function: (menu-bar-lines . 1) References: <87zlgvy4ts.fsf@escher.local.home> Sender: steve@escher.local.home Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 21:32:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87zlgvy4ts.fsf@escher.local.home> (Stephen Berman's message of "Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:04:31 +0100") Message-ID: <87vdrjxser.fsf@escher.local.home> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.58 On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:04:31 +0100 Stephen Berman wrote: > 1. emacs -Q > 2. M-x customize-variable RET default-frame-alist RET > 3. Custom buffer shows: > > Default Frame Alist: > Parameter: menu-bar-lines > Value: 1 > Parameter: tool-bar-lines > Value: 1 > State: CHANGED outside Customize; operating on it here may be unreliable. > > 4. Click "State" button, select "Show Saved Lisp Expresion". Custom > buffer now shows: > > default-frame-alist: nil > State: CHANGED outside Customize; operating on it here may be unreliable. (lisp) > > The above just shows that Emacs sets a non-STANDARD default for > default-frame-alist. Well, it's also strange that that the Lisp expression is nil. Steve Berman From rudalics@gmx.at Tue Feb 10 06:09:04 2009 Received: (at 2249) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 10 Feb 2009 14:09:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n1AE90xX018876 for <2249@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:09:01 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Feb 2009 14:08:54 -0000 Received: from 62-47-47-223.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.47.223]) [62.47.47.223] by mail.gmx.net (mp001) with SMTP; 10 Feb 2009 15:08:54 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX183EMIGTbU3KF5Py8AixRnzFPcRHzlikwGT+06nmw ItDoyBbsDv9iXP Message-ID: <499189F0.9030609@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:06:40 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Berman CC: 2249@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#2249: 23.0.90; default-frame-alist: Invalid function: (menu-bar-lines . 1) References: <87zlgvy4ts.fsf@escher.local.home> In-Reply-To: <87zlgvy4ts.fsf@escher.local.home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.58 > 3. Custom buffer shows: > > Default Frame Alist: > Parameter: menu-bar-lines > Value: 1 > Parameter: tool-bar-lines > Value: 1 > State: CHANGED outside Customize; operating on it here may be unreliable. > > 4. Click "State" button, select "Show Saved Lisp Expresion". Custom > buffer now shows: > > default-frame-alist: nil > State: CHANGED outside Customize; operating on it here may be unreliable. (lisp) This is an old issue, see, for example http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2000-11/msg00244.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2007-12/msg01194.html `default-frame-alist' really shouldn't be customizable. > 8. Click button "Erase customizations" > => Emacs beeps, shows message "Invalid function: (menu-bar-lines . 1)" FWIW, this is a bug in `custom-theme-recalc-variable'. Try erasing customizations for `exec-path' or `completion-ignored-extensions'. martin From drew.adams@oracle.com Tue Feb 10 07:45:06 2009 Received: (at 2249) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 10 Feb 2009 15:45:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet11.oracle.com (rcsinet11.oracle.com [148.87.113.123]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1AFj0Gk015502 for <2249@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:45:02 -0800 Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by rgminet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n1AFl8ME002546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:47:09 GMT Received: from acsmt706.oracle.com (acsmt706.oracle.com [141.146.40.84]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n1AFishA010953; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:44:56 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.128.33) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:44:46 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'martin rudalics'" , <2249@debbugs.gnu.org>, "'Stephen Berman'" References: <87zlgvy4ts.fsf@escher.local.home> <499189F0.9030609@gmx.at> Subject: RE: bug#2249: 23.0.90;default-frame-alist: Invalid function: (menu-bar-lines . 1) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:44:44 -0800 Message-ID: <002601c98b96$8178e970$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <499189F0.9030609@gmx.at> Thread-Index: AcmLiztlTsNQ9+C9T3yc1/iy7OOfiAAApQ1A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt706.oracle.com [141.146.40.84] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090209.4991A0F4.003E:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > From: martin rudalics Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:07 AM > > 3. Custom buffer shows: > > Default Frame Alist: > > Parameter: menu-bar-lines > > Value: 1 > > Parameter: tool-bar-lines > > Value: 1 > > State: CHANGED outside Customize; operating on it > > here may be unreliable. > > > > 4. Click "State" button, select "Show Saved Lisp > > Expresion". Custom buffer now shows: > > default-frame-alist: nil > > State: CHANGED outside Customize; operating on it > > here may be unreliable. (lisp) > > This is an old issue, see, for example > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2000-11/msg00244.html > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2007-12/msg01194.html > > `default-frame-alist' really shouldn't be customizable. Please do not remove `default-frame-alist' as a defcustom, at least not without providing a reasonable alternative for Customize. Think, for the moment, of each frame parameter as a user option. If an option is changed outside Customize, then if you later Customize it you see exactly that: the new current value and the state of CHANGED outside Customize. If you don't want Customize changes to override how it gets set outside Customize, then don't save those changes. The problem here is that Customize users might not notice that some particular parameter in the list is something that they don't want to save. Or they might not know that they can delete it from `default-frame-alist' - they might think that each frame parameter must be present in the option. Concentrating on some other parameter in the list, which they just changed using Customize, they save, and later find out that they also overwrote something they didn't want to. One partial solution to this might be to refine the display of state - make it per list entry. If a user saw "CHANGED outside Customize" next to an individual parameter in the list, that would be a helpful heads-up alert - that is the purpose of that state message. There would remain, however, the problems that (a) a user still might not notice such a message, if s?he concentrates on some other parameter, and (b) even if it's noticed, the user might not know what to do - might not know that s?he can simply delete that parameter from `default-frame-alist'. Also, I don't know how easy it would be to change Customize to keep track of and notify changes to individual list elements. I suspect it might not be easy, and would be tantamount to creating separate options for the individual frame parameters. In a way, these problems exist for any collection-valued option, but it is more likely that they become problems in practice for `default-frame-alist', because (a) it is useful to customize that option and (b) it can be useful to set individual frame parameters outside Customize. A few other things might help here, in addition to pushing the CHANGED state message into the individual list items: 1. Spell things out in the doc string of `default-frame-alist' (and similar vars). Say some of what was just said above. Let users know that they can delete any parameters from the list - that there will nevertheless be a value for such a deleted parameter, provided by default. 2. When the user tries to save the option value, for each CHANGED parameter, make the user decide whether to (a) save the parameter value changed from outside or (b) drop the parameter from the list. Again, that would require tracking the state of each parameter individually. 3. Make it possible for commands that change a single frame parameter outside Customize to also save `default-frame-alist', at least optionally. That would make it less likely to have "CHANGED" displayed when a user Customizes `default-frame-alist'. The problem for #3 is that such a set-and-save command shouldn't save any other changed parameters. If another parameter that is already explicitly present in `default-frame-alist' has also been changed, then when the option is saved by the command, that parameter must keep its previous value before the change, that is, keep its saved value. If that parameter was not explicitly present in the option, then the command should not save it as part of the option (it should be dropped from the collection before saving). Another possibility would be to replace the single option `default-frame-alist' with a set of several separate options. In some ways that would be less convenient, but it might be easier for users to understand and use. Dunno what other repercussions there might be. Another possibility would be to just remove from the option certain parameters that are most likely to be problematic (e.g. `tool-bar-lines', `menu-bar-lines'), making only those parameters into separate user options. That would not solve the problem generally, but it might be a reasonable piecemeal approach - if the problem later raises its head a lot for some other parameter, then we could consider converting that parameter too into a separate option. But there should definitely remain some way to use Customize for the default frame parameters (either individually or collectively). And the problems mentioned exist for all collection options - they are just manifested more for `default-frame-alist' because users have common, simple ways to alter some of the individual list elements outside Customize without saving them. Summary: I agree there is a usability problem. I don't favor the "solution" of simply making `default-frame-parameters' be an internal variable. This is something that should be discussed carefully in emacs-devel, after the release. There are likely to be complexities that might not be obvious at first. (And changes to the basic way of doing things wrt `default-frame-alist' are likely to necessitate basic change to some existing user and 3rd-party code.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 26 20:36:54 2010 Received: (at 2249-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jun 2010 00:36:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSfri-0006zF-Hv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 Jun 2010 20:36:54 -0400 Received: from pantheon-po45.its.yale.edu ([130.132.50.79]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSfrg-0006zA-Q6 for 2249-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 Jun 2010 20:36:53 -0400 Received: from furry (173-14-147-246-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.14.147.246]) (authenticated bits=0) by pantheon-po45.its.yale.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o5R0am7D000520 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 26 Jun 2010 20:36:48 -0400 Received: by furry (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5E9EB16D416; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 02:36:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Chong Yidong To: martin rudalics Subject: Re: bug#2249: 23.0.90; default-frame-alist: Invalid function: (menu-bar-lines . 1) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 20:36:48 -0400 Message-ID: <8739w9z4yn.fsf@stupidchicken.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-YaleITSMailFilter: Version 1.2c (attachment(s) not renamed) X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 2249-done Cc: Stephen Berman , 2249-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) >> 3. Custom buffer shows: >> >> Default Frame Alist: >> Parameter: menu-bar-lines >> Value: 1 >> Parameter: tool-bar-lines >> Value: 1 >> State: CHANGED outside Customize; operating on it here may be >> unreliable. > > This is an old issue, see, for example > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2000-11/msg00244.html > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2007-12/msg01194.html I have checked a fix into the trunk that changes the way we handle menu-bar and tool-bar lines. The value of initial- and default-frame-alist should now be nil, by default, at startup. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jun 27 06:40:16 2010 Received: (at 2249-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jun 2010 10:40:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSpHb-0002SN-C8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 06:40:15 -0400 Received: from mail.gmx.net ([213.165.64.20]) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OSpHY-0002SF-3O for 2249-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 Jun 2010 06:40:13 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 27 Jun 2010 10:40:05 -0000 Received: from 62-47-62-110.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.62.110]) [62.47.62.110] by mail.gmx.net (mp020) with SMTP; 27 Jun 2010 12:40:05 +0200 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/fqPY36OPfhOmpumN4fbgmm6SvoCiOY7TG8UJbS3 z0UuxLqhlwDGTw Message-ID: <4C272A82.4050404@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 12:40:02 +0200 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Windows/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: bug#2249: 23.0.90; default-frame-alist: Invalid function: (menu-bar-lines . 1) References: <8739w9z4yn.fsf@stupidchicken.com> In-Reply-To: <8739w9z4yn.fsf@stupidchicken.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 2249-done Cc: Stephen Berman , 2249-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) > I have checked a fix into the trunk that changes the way we handle > menu-bar and tool-bar lines. The value of initial- and > default-frame-alist should now be nil, by default, at startup. Looks good from here. [Which means that so far (1) nothing is broken, (2) my .emacs settings are respected, and (3) the customization interface seems OK.] So thanks a lot for fixing this :-) martin From unknown Sat Jun 21 03:11:11 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator