From unknown Sat Jun 21 17:35:51 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#21998 <21998@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#21998 <21998@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Run 'make change-history' on release branch Reply-To: bug#21998 <21998@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 00:35:51 +0000 retitle 21998 Run 'make change-history' on release branch reassign 21998 emacs submitter 21998 Glenn Morris severity 21998 normal tag 21998 notabug thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 23 14:08:24 2015 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Nov 2015 19:08:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49853 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1a0wTP-0004Bn-TB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:08:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:40263) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1a0wTO-0004Bg-D8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:08:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a0wTN-0006dN-Eu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:08:22 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:42823) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a0wTN-0006dA-Ca for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:08:21 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1a0wTM-0000vl-NT; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:08:20 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: submit@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Run 'make change-history' on release branch X-Spook: Reyosa Coast Guard Steve Case plutonium Narcotics X-Ran: SU45el?q3'FU'}hpIIAXBwMjyhomCC1bWl9De6wQ'g0`"%u!h5ES{:@9~=]SVZ: X-Hue: magenta X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:08:20 -0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.6 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.6 (-----) Package: emacs Version: 25.0.50 It needs to be possible to run 'make change-history' on the release branch. See discussion in http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-11/msg01461.html From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 23 14:21:03 2015 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Nov 2015 19:21:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49864 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1a0wfe-0004ZS-Ti for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:21:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:43932) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1a0wfd-0004Z0-Ez for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:21:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a0wfc-00010I-Ja for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:21:01 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:43033) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a0wfc-00010E-GP for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:21:00 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1a0wfc-0004Pq-1d for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:21:00 -0500 Subject: control message for bug 19759 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.99.98) Message-Id: From: Glenn Morris Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:21:00 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.6 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.6 (-----) block 19759 by 21998 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 12 19:52:16 2016 Received: (at 21998-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Feb 2016 00:52:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38363 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aUORc-0005WL-9M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2016 19:52:16 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:57532) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aUORa-0005W6-7M for 21998-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2016 19:52:14 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D81160D4E for <21998-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 12 Feb 2016 16:52:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id iaDN3AwqFPdq for <21998-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 12 Feb 2016 16:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B8F160FC1 for <21998-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 12 Feb 2016 16:52:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ugOa5RVChHlM for <21998-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 12 Feb 2016 16:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CFA54160D4E for <21998-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 12 Feb 2016 16:52:07 -0800 (PST) To: 21998-done@debbugs.gnu.org From: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: Run 'make change-history' on release branch Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2016 16:52:07 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) This was done by Nicolas Petton on 2016-01-30 in commit a4ab2a563a062e76b9e79befd3a80fdbea523f16 so I am marking the bug as done. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 16 11:41:40 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Feb 2016 16:41:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38261 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aVih2-0002UK-4Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 11:41:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53940) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aVih0-0002U7-HZ for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 11:41:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aVigr-0000OO-PN for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 11:41:33 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:58080) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aVigr-0000OI-GS; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 11:41:29 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1aVigq-0000XC-Hx; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 11:41:28 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spook: nuclear Drug cartel Cartel de Golfo Glock Virual X-Ran: *?co["d;U'fpLEnp|Ek7<.U|/!"jbM$q96} (Paul Eggert's message of "Fri, 12 Feb 2016 16:52:07 -0800") Message-ID: <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) The point of this report was that merging between branches will create a complete mess. Simply ignoring the actual issue doesn't constitute a fix. From unknown Sat Jun 21 17:35:51 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 17:53:01 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 16 12:54:28 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Feb 2016 17:54:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38334 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aVjpU-0005s4-87 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 12:54:28 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:44130) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aVjpT-0005rr-6W for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 12:54:27 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D3F160FD0; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 09:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id toJo18s8IKoq; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 09:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE09160FD3; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 09:54:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id E39zp74qWikd; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 09:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1974C160FD0; Tue, 16 Feb 2016 09:54:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch To: Glenn Morris , 21998@debbugs.gnu.org References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <56C3624C.6040201@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 09:54:20 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 02/16/2016 08:41 AM, Glenn Morris wrote: > The point of this report was that merging between branches will create a > complete mess. Simply ignoring the actual issue doesn't constitute a fix. Ah, sorry, I misinterpreted the original report, which talked only about the ability to run 'make change-history' on the release branch. Although that's doable now, obviously more work needs to be done as far as merging goes. I reopened the bug report with that in mind. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 04 11:46:58 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Mar 2016 16:46:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33970 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1abssU-0003tq-IU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2016 11:46:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36975) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1abssT-0003tf-NY for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2016 11:46:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1abssN-0005wU-MS for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2016 11:46:52 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:34749) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1abssN-0005wE-Jv for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Mar 2016 11:46:51 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1abssM-00084c-1n; Fri, 04 Mar 2016 11:46:50 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Spook: Biological weapon DNDO Keylogger Ammonium nitrate Uzi CID X-Ran: L^qPHN5jl1I4r'.H&LWk(,n@R^wtgdLo|.tP@xEf;Hj?9snAX"7<$!:j_tt"v(U5?~+j.f X-Hue: magenta X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2016 11:46:49 -0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Glenn Morris wrote: > The point of this report was that merging between branches will create a > complete mess. I hope people appreciate this point. For example, the Feb 15th merge skipped the "Auto-commit of ChangeLog" cc6d906 but did not skip "make change-history-commit" 2b7d006. Obviously this makes no sense and means the master ChangeLog is in some weird messed-up state. But even without this specific problem, it still would be, since, as I said a long time ago, AFAICS there's no sensible way to merge this stuff between branches, which is why it was disabled on non-master branches to start with. At this point, I give up, since it seems fairly clear that maintaining an accurate ChangeLog just isn't of interest. Even the bare minimum legally relevant mistakes (missing "tiny change") don't seem to be being corrected. Probably just deleting it from the repo would be more honest. This will simplify things, eg the "correct log entries" step for making a release can be dropped, and the AUTHORS file can become less accurate. A rough non-versioned ChangeLog can still be generated for tarballs, if anyone cares. Or, a version of the above, stop keeping a versioned copy on any branch but master. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Mar 05 14:11:51 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Mar 2016 19:11:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35796 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acHcF-0003sL-Jx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:11:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:37327) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acHcE-0003s8-A1 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:11:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acHc8-0007xZ-5m for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:11:44 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:36375) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acHc4-0007tr-En; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:11:40 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2039 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1acHc3-0007OV-Gs; Sat, 05 Mar 2016 14:11:39 -0500 Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2016 21:11:40 +0200 Message-Id: <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Glenn Morris , John Wiegley In-reply-to: (message from Glenn Morris on Fri, 04 Mar 2016 11:46:49 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: Glenn Morris > Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2016 11:46:49 -0500 > > At this point, I give up, since it seems fairly clear that maintaining > an accurate ChangeLog just isn't of interest. Even the bare minimum > legally relevant mistakes (missing "tiny change") don't seem to be being > corrected. Probably just deleting it from the repo would be more honest. > This will simplify things, eg the "correct log entries" step for making > a release can be dropped, and the AUTHORS file can become less accurate. > A rough non-versioned ChangeLog can still be generated for tarballs, if > anyone cares. Or, a version of the above, stop keeping a versioned copy > on any branch but master. I think if we care at all about having ChangeLog in the releases, we should simply reinstate the file and maintain it in the repository. I think this one-year experiment clearly demonstrates that creating ChangeLog from VCS logs simply doesn't work well enough. Look how much energy we invested in making that happen, and we are still nowhere as close to the solution as we'd like to be. OTOH, if one has git-merge-changelog installed, the conflicts in merging ChangeLog are very rare, and their resolution is simple. Other projects, like GDB, still maintain ChangeLog files, and don't seem to have any problems. So I'd say let's go back to maintaining a ChangeLog (a single file in the top-level directory), if we want a ChangeLog in the releases. And if we don't do that, let's decide there will be no ChangeLog files in the release tarballs at all, and stop worrying about these issues. What we have been trying to do -- both eat the cake and have it -- simply doesn't work. John? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 06 04:48:11 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Mar 2016 09:48:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36145 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acVIJ-0007Ou-2c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 04:48:11 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:58502) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acVIH-0007Om-4f for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 04:48:09 -0500 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=stories) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1acVHv-00007L-0E; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 10:47:47 +0100 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAElBMVEVnOz8FAQLAl44xFRsN BQgGAgP1ZHEwAAACUElEQVQ4jWWUTXLcIBCFO6ADhPKwp1AOQATaK6bZD2X6/lfxa1BqEpuamrL6 U/89nof4PuK70yN9fnkS5iZDRPD8tjmPV/RhAvwxkj2HS8GaGDbh1oWQ0HKmnE9zxHVKw6vIaDP5 WYy5wabP5AdqPXZ5HjEErrmauDfnB8lA4s/9zRxEp77KKQbNGALw3I8IoJO5Pkw8FSD+Qahs0jkX cb6a0HSqBQyl33O17uSgH1oKIEb7TtRQ6lFE+jthD6ejGivGEkJSqbT+DL2DKThHJAvgKtnmRswN oMuHlWHO/mgARgG6k46ukxnsCzkv2niMw7bZQ/XVEZkrmQ13YPY2e3Ab2Aqi1USWKZfjLoVdAIpw JioVSh+xrAxmBcxIyBRsTgCI94paJlrmrLFoEwF4kKz94q4ZKBYIYJs9AHANoVSEcZsB0i3AVTNC wVQRwReofIM8b/cFVo9YkDBBngByZKwAi2x12cEClLtH42Tidi2X2Io9pxP1U6EP7jSil+WcCkFA YVxbhc0gng5lUaKQuo6nbzoaBXUjbudaPWqDvTtcdpHRUQHWuJemwR0D96EZ7AFgbLmgEto0BSB2 GwnA6eYI2KmvagYPY6o/TvdYK0MMrBhiqLTBcLoExf/OX9nlw8Qv59fcQ55a5gtwc17EDZH5BqpF +N84ejg/5UX4VQsvbYT/d03JF3IgK903oiIy5BuN1VLqNy0YmKnD0ZDJSa6ohzN3LaylvP5eeFgl Z00KM4W6Xz8sXr0OAhvqeLM5gl4ngLq4ulxyTphKI4O/n08XCdtGYYZE2wAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2016 10:47:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 05 Mar 2016 21:11:40 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1acVHv-00007L-0E X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1457862467.17485@6I/+IHkG9N1ukpv0GXA3YQ X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, Glenn Morris , John Wiegley X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > So I'd say let's go back to maintaining a ChangeLog (a single file in > the top-level directory), if we want a ChangeLog in the releases. And > if we don't do that, let's decide there will be no ChangeLog files in > the release tarballs at all, and stop worrying about these issues. > What we have been trying to do -- both eat the cake and have it -- > simply doesn't work. I agree, and I think we should ditch the ChangeLogs. I think the ChangeLog "style" encourages less informative commit log messages. The normal, free-form commit style encourages people explaining, in their own words, why they do changes, and what they hope to achieve with them. The ChangeLog style, on the other hand, pretty much uselessly lists all files and functions affected, and after getting all that formalism in place, many people don't have more stamina left than to add "Fix bug". :-) The back-and-forth-and-back-again formalism we've gone for (add things to ChangeLog and then make vc.el reformat it) is a hindrance to people being able to contribute to Emacs development. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 06 13:02:41 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Mar 2016 18:02:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37001 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acd0r-0005Sk-7e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:02:41 -0500 Received: from mail-wm0-f48.google.com ([74.125.82.48]:37208) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acd0p-0005SV-K4 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:02:39 -0500 Received: by mail-wm0-f48.google.com with SMTP id p65so46513812wmp.0 for <21998@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 10:02:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WD7rARTg9r40Kmb1gWLDvrdQnUhFYsULotxVf6EkR/8=; b=sqRmeo3HJoa0MP1mEKlb4CodLQGO2hRA8KHoTEgioXjt4NxQRRpHetHEcY2SnJFQ7h wf8ENwJAGSjoBhtIB/NjZhgAR6BnGVM/TN2eqPixIC+MJ8D7Ymd0qGGUP+g9U4rsPLMj vXO1ZOLwQI1sA3eykZ3fL93yYegcWQ7wjqJ/wi3vK5gczT0KxNxqSYVhSfuFzt2wM5Hk wWbGqInb+iYa62TybPE54BoaSU1D3tYxIZGTKn7EPX86ZKqODd8EkIa5HHaqezRbhqZX toVK/gSXdffGXAB9pUJ2LiXfw2eqybcLAGkUSAkiS8AdMOClXPC23YiwGPdhUSAGc59B Bdyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WD7rARTg9r40Kmb1gWLDvrdQnUhFYsULotxVf6EkR/8=; b=aSY+58rQQI8ds/GyHO28fgjAafpdW0JqTGsXKRtT2jdCsvMFxe69656nVbWNP/CKf3 9b4JH9ysCaxHTyq/bdriY+TPk6++jVkRwZ9c6MxVSZ0fwU/RU8M5pQ35yn4tjH9JFNn8 06ACS9KaRnzX8neN+3HtQsSuOZmnnfbfOF0adjkHJgbvR3oi3P4if8Acb37BhKBhtPEI TE3ITyq62BRVGyDkicqZk0bQolHTp+dOz/WiUEPUabvRvaR+LgKkqkGQFhJKoRv4+qEP cyOHtxPcoV6PBtzG89bXrDRJ1XahDkgdIETycptt/LktMn5tH0WCbbkZJAMSUXrCBCMS gWyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKWBa60N8WDkU32jCeG3q19qJe7pOJwzGE2NsmvLNyjaS1CSCGHtlpjD3OdT+01Rw== X-Received: by 10.28.68.86 with SMTP id r83mr9167946wma.73.1457287353877; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 10:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([185.105.175.24]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id u202sm9727106wmd.24.2016.03.06.10.02.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 06 Mar 2016 10:02:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Eli Zaretskii References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: <64548e9f-980a-74e6-4501-d43a4d406d95@yandex.ru> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 20:02:30 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, John Wiegley X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 03/06/2016 11:47 AM, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: > I agree, and I think we should ditch the ChangeLogs. I think the > ChangeLog "style" encourages less informative commit log messages. The > normal, free-form commit style encourages people explaining, in their > own words, why they do changes, and what they hope to achieve with > them. Whether it's "less" or "more", depends on what one is comparing to. I rather feel it establishes a quality baseline, and by being required to mention every change, you're encouraged to document them all at least somehow. And you can still prepend the whole thing with a free-form explanation, if it's needed. So while the ChangeLog files can go, I'd rather we keep to that style in the commit messages. At least until we switch to some other well-defined standard. > The ChangeLog style, on the other hand, pretty much uselessly lists all > files and functions affected, and after getting all that formalism in > place, many people don't have more stamina left than to add "Fix bug". :-) IME, except for trivial changes, writing a log entry takes comparatively little time compared to the rest (like designing and writing the code). Or maybe I'm just slow. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 06 16:07:41 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Mar 2016 21:07:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37050 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acftq-0001PE-3L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:07:41 -0500 Received: from mail-pf0-f170.google.com ([209.85.192.170]:33673) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acftk-0001Oy-VZ for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:07:36 -0500 Received: by mail-pf0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 124so67755234pfg.0 for <21998@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:07:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:reply-to:mime-version; bh=Ct9X1cyjpTR96CH086KiSYJOVrubuYOr9uLUHGZmsHE=; b=fa3jPIWcsqz6DDrql9FSZumSzKyN3fSAbWNMEsRcbMcKejht/9OS33k42DicXJjuW1 50Hr/XFOruy4FqWHTKXRYYonVViVYDN3iNvUOAtXby6mRCRsyyDG10YWeaovDX8a8WeL PD4U7Oh0Z1SGL05BzhH1j8667IqplTpYjhnZq0NTwam5PUZG7ca3evQtuVgBzGsYK3Bm MRTXvvYt1jSMqAO0h45bTHyj6v79m37FZMFv1TxKliFGU+1Noyc2syAitAFRZ9HVnq+n /MaQ8Z7czGi4RIw6exaq6sI0yvtNZnYeAELWnTk0RBUWVobbrrNd6Z8B5MhOIuC7gqQv Zfsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:reply-to:mime-version; bh=Ct9X1cyjpTR96CH086KiSYJOVrubuYOr9uLUHGZmsHE=; b=P6iczjUcVqSAS9NQ5lnKIDZe8Rc67nKLOx63I7tQkbD3rKAqkWAwQvQ4blH9BUcGLE +yF0hkl7D75xtGUQXtFUJXTsrKPSkkC3oZki+G4DNXImPDXxXnWxqFsuSowy6IWfguBc 8OlpoDbgQXXaRP874Yzxa90MB5Msf11jBDc5CvXcJYUCI+aSw78s5Dq0qqseZOuqitNv F2Utf+4lKX9EIqVGGWNrHc943vgyLoSWvq65PCh48HnsTUtSE/yxKp8p0KBk21mLlwO0 MavT5B+aDmUHTHeelKvjsOycXLNILLFj6cRasCu0saboNAonT15lo+AQrQKz2zRLHX3I kEqw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKEnXGf1Hf6h3lrNgMqcnJgSJOscbn43Gz96DlioQ3wHUnBNWgOVkI7+0OEaoaE/g== X-Received: by 10.98.10.204 with SMTP id 73mr28572060pfk.87.1457298447275; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:07:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m16sm19428709pfi.75.2016.03.06.13.07.25 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:07:25 -0800 (PST) From: John Wiegley X-Google-Original-From: John Wiegley Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 06B811342175E; Sun, 6 Mar 2016 13:07:25 -0800 (PST) To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 06 Mar 2016 10:47:46 +0100") Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:07:22 -0800 Message-ID: References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, Glenn Morris , Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: John Wiegley Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes: > I agree, and I think we should ditch the ChangeLogs. I think the ChangeLog > "style" encourages less informative commit log messages. The normal, > free-form commit style encourages people explaining, in their own words, = why > they do changes, and what they hope to achieve with them. I have always wanted to drop the ChangeLogs, so if the other developers agr= ee, I'm all for it. Keeping ChangeLog style in the commit entry is not terribly useful either, since the diff output of log -p lets you know which function= or variable is being modified. I've never missed not having that ChangeLog data in other projects, of any size. But that's up to the other developers and w= hat makes their lives easier. =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJW3JwKAAoJEMFE2PTxn+YwmfMMAJ33KgLGfM2afNwbC8/HyQGI 3lOJzo8rtcceo3inRMxltsNTuC7+GgMwiaYDrPXPfmBJX4K/vGEfBJcTwxrMm4nx QdtSxOjCq4Wv3srPZ8ZrECaSO/F0Fmkzk8wlf5goUEk2w8C0Lx27p+ALvahUusey SJnAAeVRrP+YTUTxI2FJQLYlDDTtUxEfa7MVilznyE76emcBcdZm/OjxFg1kwMjT TC69pLjwm+Ka/zsPXwvjQytSlt8LxkZjgz2397/x3BO7MAaKvcclBV8quuVwQ7rr aDrBYHT/ptv/1SG67uLAQcDiog0u63hjV2vVtgZyRcqYLrIVwkcbMGkKiF9Dr4qY 1U5W56hfGA/l8x8uok2o6nD4msANm0YWxeZEJ4W8YhTv5OUvSm3ADU1v12gd7Sz1 /IOCTzUCE6CextuN0OFo2pW0qunKZOihaLv1PeUYqIH8GqQ7016elm8HrE/maJdZ MMWWaYZgNH1k1Hhud1406z12LMEo+M481Rcq0KNv4Q== =bIbT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 06 16:25:32 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Mar 2016 21:25:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37055 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acgBA-0001qL-2g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:25:32 -0500 Received: from mail-wm0-f51.google.com ([74.125.82.51]:36662) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acgB8-0001q6-7e for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:25:30 -0500 Received: by mail-wm0-f51.google.com with SMTP id n186so60573782wmn.1 for <21998@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:25:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=PKaURLbbXoobFB83E3oHq18Un2zjrJgceyG7O25qoUc=; b=UnUKPNSytUONj44h4fe7UsckSNhva3SXwBiDcFH4bgoUIxCjkuX1HSxeKj5Lx07WeZ 4LqOQIWBjQwbKa5VaeaQ6WDyuEIjM5Zxsz/OO/xKfVGtEA0RV3D6QMp9/GQoqmEDXiZj DqMLyAkPCxJfMakAS9kF6wTk8YpszS6a5bjbL5Dg9mSzLOdD5Z2PI0ThJxtHb2Z9V2ey TzDdIZP2TX64v4AUePucFVVSVJAf2ez1/xRtyGVqtR1dZbk9kOsxq0nvy0IYLecb0Zq5 zgSn+W4bk/GaWCYeiQCGs4uALE9FsctkUem5S8iVKVy0r6LjaO9vEDKFYr67IX2Kp0pn 84lA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references :user-agent:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=PKaURLbbXoobFB83E3oHq18Un2zjrJgceyG7O25qoUc=; b=ZTlEXj1oX69A6WVhv0t0R7AUf4tmnXqkfoMeCKSz5o+PKqCQJRSeCFGWucWuKcbM18 yqirXqRRFPsb9FF3xUycLpQyySykM6t7JaFOmIGFczyr8wNTRfP+j5JAkDruBPKD8Qho MqmREvSGa+PAZiLF5BDjmNn0XGb9zmQnBY+DzB9hMOsbe1+vVU/DXWc4AiP6r+ASu+B4 TX2kDuPLIvbLFlJtf99A20+caB7i4WMZgoArKjKkmtdLxi4nlxeRUMDthFeuUANfoTeM ev/zWwbWAfeEOfxMKBZGjdzeaQgZN7vQRCSLRNFWomHOjuvnv6D4rJfR8gipY9YJuOHH WSuw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJKsZsS3IBuOBue26GvCGo1gMEpKTbNQp5BNC2n2WM48PzBHEbtYIVmFAwabf6g1Pg== X-Received: by 10.28.100.7 with SMTP id y7mr9780604wmb.87.1457299524441; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:25:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (xdsl-213-196-211-57.netcologne.de. [213.196.211.57]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ka7sm14717518wjb.8.2016.03.06.13.25.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:25:23 -0800 (PST) From: Ingo Lohmar To: John Wiegley , Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch In-Reply-To: References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Notmuch/0.20.2+113~g6332e6e (http://notmuchmail.org) Emacs/25.0.90.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2016 22:25:19 +0100 Message-ID: <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Sun, Mar 06 2016 13:07 (-0800), John Wiegley wrote: > > I have always wanted to drop the ChangeLogs, so if the other developers agree, > I'm all for it. Keeping ChangeLog style in the commit entry is not terribly > useful either, since the diff output of log -p lets you know which function or > variable is being modified. I've never missed not having that ChangeLog data > in other projects, of any size. But that's up to the other developers and what > makes their lives easier. +1 I am but a lowly one- or two-time committer to Emacs' core, but I definitely concur that the Changelogs are one extra entry barrier to contribution, especially for starters or not-so-frequent contributors. And incidentally, I messed up the Changelog not too long ago and others patiently helped me out. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 06 16:52:17 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Mar 2016 21:52:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37070 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acgb2-0002Rq-Vy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:52:17 -0500 Received: from mail-pf0-f177.google.com ([209.85.192.177]:34858) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acgb2-0002Rc-5A for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:52:16 -0500 Received: by mail-pf0-f177.google.com with SMTP id x188so43675428pfb.2 for <21998@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:52:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:reply-to:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=yLx1hKSQb2MbM745jOde0j/YCTObe6/1X04W5OFok4Q=; b=QL20y6Omkji1w6Ko9gfBa+eYyNNmuC+yycQRCGN9DWEqwlD7pne8J64VkL3L14cH2q gfUfk9mJzuiiLbaJmTPcw0xYn6rheQIJNk8kkluuoD9hm8+cVR/2GImOMmE0vQNYJwZ/ 1ao62v3jOSxfXpB8pNpQNN9H0OAe9QZeUjyw4F6NmetBcHbeKhz9665CTYAlKJOLn9xh 5GEqTLHk3G4NcugDYJ/nbI5IyJAg7DuxMVQ2DZbfrhAVj215xt2C+scWrOa8E/iX/gB1 NPHh18pyjJFcCNtrMmh53GJZbJs1J+bcsGYA6cqIxOX9rrJYC95gypiXEgA4qN8JDi45 jxiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:reply-to:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=yLx1hKSQb2MbM745jOde0j/YCTObe6/1X04W5OFok4Q=; b=FRtLMa0TpnT2ANRj5kRPRnIMdcLahLEorml2j5X1DkbHIoaqViFFtQOrlf3p3jZsM4 GV/iAhCHgLj1DjfW4K7u+JTolY435EbX3Z4FB1TS2FSSWhC/GgvYHTiNWXRMrUbFpBkM HP0OLd8S8mobMWjh/WOHpYoPaNql6+/urdnrKMUL6HxFUM4SFGw0RQZijwR9QM8s1i+I d3Y4YI+OW5jomLtKqHdb/IeRO7qqyFFx2AN8QvyaD2zsncxPaSEMgluBGlNhTCTT8/+1 Gohvet3yV/PTdqN/y2Juy74w6APScGQ07wk+1aieTh4rKGeQuthe8E9HoijsrTbwzAaV EJKg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIfRDSq7l0Zd3ycHYNGWMRn0sHjB3QEy2lqUN/jSjcSOv0Uz+iaHQEeDbsgaThTTw== X-Received: by 10.98.76.80 with SMTP id z77mr28911571pfa.121.1457301130288; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q26sm19555180pfi.57.2016.03.06.13.52.08 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:52:08 -0800 (PST) From: John Wiegley X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id AA9DF13426D8A; Sun, 6 Mar 2016 13:52:07 -0800 (PST) To: Emacs developers Subject: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? (Was: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch) In-Reply-To: <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> (Ingo Lohmar's message of "Sun, 06 Mar 2016 22:25:19 +0100") Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:52:04 -0800 Message-ID: References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: Emacs developers , Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , 21998@debbugs.gnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: John Wiegley Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Mar 06 2016 13:07 (-0800), John Wiegley wrote: >=20 > I have always wanted to drop the ChangeLogs, so if the other developers a= gree, > I'm all for it. Keeping ChangeLog style in the commit entry is not terrib= ly > useful either, since the diff output of log -p lets you know which functi= on or > variable is being modified. I've never missed not having that ChangeLog d= ata > in other projects, of any size. But that's up to the other developers and= what > makes their lives easier. I'd like to open this up to discussion on emacs-devel, so that we hear from our other developers. What do you all think about ChangeLogs, and their val= ue to you in your work on Emacs? =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJW3KaEAAoJEMFE2PTxn+Ywu8IL/RGPinj0z4OjbatKlEdSD3Az Blopc7GfdoTRrIJRpP98kR80jGFgJqg8YVb5fgQSCedOBOJzidzAeR27OqUn3xUJ A48ZpetaNgPAetTHmHdsXRu8g52uJe2XssPrAN2pqssb0dVpNaZovbK2DwyzaPIc bN6lFF1gPKaxrmBbVdfGXBz9h5Uhu3noc7RHu/Qr+gwFTDpmWUqOg7WJ7IpD4EK7 q044Rnjqztt4MJglzaOIXrkRlOVDKxR3tMAPrHhkjK7Oox/QeCKlmcyBGGorNBCT 4Krv3GEmjWt7D8+LYwvMf1eZnKOmna+tyRYDSpATPIys7aO5CNfOOyWTSHxsLWNj cfz55kGHJujB/WIqIoGJ/L0jc4LFA/Z4LV4gmgkXSBIxOL34fj+aO/udb7NvAr84 wpgz9Ol+EKgVY/jwaxsAMyXSRVA5L1cDDeq1aO47ugk1LWLEw1SHpCURbBMEptsr t4R4j2QX1C1lq83FEvlE6ftJT4QacOaKRleKkOBTWA== =qeaK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 06 17:05:04 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Mar 2016 22:05:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37075 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acgnQ-0002kD-60 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:05:04 -0500 Received: from static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([71.162.243.5]:43282 helo=snark.thyrsus.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acgnO-0002k5-HC for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:05:03 -0500 Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0BD5D13A0476; Sun, 6 Mar 2016 17:05:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 17:05:02 -0500 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Emacs developers , Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , 21998@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? (Was: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch) Message-ID: <20160306220502.GA23154@thyrsus.com> References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Wiegley : > On Sun, Mar 06 2016 13:07 (-0800), John Wiegley wrote: > >=20 > > I have always wanted to drop the ChangeLogs, so if the other developers= agree, > > I'm all for it. Keeping ChangeLog style in the commit entry is not terr= ibly > > useful either, since the diff output of log -p lets you know which func= tion or > > variable is being modified. I've never missed not having that ChangeLog= data > > in other projects, of any size. But that's up to the other developers a= nd what > > makes their lives easier. >=20 > I'd like to open this up to discussion on emacs-devel, so that we hear fr= om > our other developers. What do you all think about ChangeLogs, and their v= alue > to you in your work on Emacs? I advocated dropping ChangeLogs at the time I did the repository conversion. That is still my position. --=20 Eric S. Raymond --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIVAwUBVtypjezIII+MbHONAQLexA//VPtjdKLwZ6k0QoC4lNefkdLiVDSR4RAt 5O7hHJs4xVQ/ms4IJuMaE+Nz42ou7AIvXsF9n9liRiD7WPxpDN5TC/XwBUDAn4rc O7zx5uWYQE+B+vmCiZxBIzH+vSWk+/RG9zdYOvAWw6Hd1E7rwIc//cZg2PpKBgeS 0PRBgktDNIa9SUqTX5xXj2ZBJdpW3wsMOWxVZO1O7vGB20HDzAMMh7fUeVRnyzYq sq7sZZ2lx+TbsbjBcyn3Q+stfq2nVs4JICDXXZwNw5ExYtqoaixBP9hhQ2gJvZdd o2Aw+5/lWNloUl7ReRDnoBHW2HWy4kcUX89ZhlpydRC9tQi+v+5Zdg5lEF0EtH7I LHvsrn9k9Tiz9CwSnfD7pt6SMtClhBtX32pwunF5MYSx0twjenCLP0G208B9VHzf O2H5vJzCwZCnax5FrBywe64vQAAEftnAIpB0XDpTR9P2hNxancU5q4JLxbsE5Nk0 EC8tZS+6prmnmw4D9bMndNMvIRjL1bscehJir0grKLC4vPddnmBZCGkdo/v5cx1c OEsPN+00JVGJtrCI9UgZ8YgYTieW3pneRtiRl0hPUz6c2rDfL9JZBDsjAxVwUeha o96gVpLbRScxlHzwAbDHVmBsSfj8Ah52J3XEcyDtNSHjYf6cjch1TCJswpknORb5 +MuQLOZC39s= =P2XT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PEIAKu/WMn1b1Hv9-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 06 17:34:22 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Mar 2016 22:34:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37082 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1achFm-0003RE-Kb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:34:22 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:43823) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1achFk-0003R1-Fd for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:34:20 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C0A160E82; Sun, 6 Mar 2016 14:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id KOnloY6N1JVZ; Sun, 6 Mar 2016 14:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 281FB160E83; Sun, 6 Mar 2016 14:34:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id E5eTxBY2ATxv; Sun, 6 Mar 2016 14:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 08DAB160E82; Sun, 6 Mar 2016 14:34:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? (Was: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch) To: Emacs developers References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <56DCB064.9060206@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 14:34:12 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) John Wiegley wrote: > What do you all think about ChangeLogs, and their value > to you in your work on Emacs? I regularly do the equivalent of: grep PATTERN $(git ls-files | grep -v ChangeLog) That is, in searches I typically ignore ChangeLog* files because of their less-useful chatter. I'd be happy if we stopped maintaining these files in the master branch (we should keep them for emacs-25). I'd be happy if we removed the existing ChangeLog* files from the master branch. Even if we remove ChangeLogs, we should still have guidelines for commit message format, as saying "anything goes" would make it harder to read the output of 'git log'. I don't mind using ChangeLog format in commit messages, as it's a well-understood format and switching to some other format could well be more trouble than it's worth. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 06 18:06:48 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Mar 2016 23:06:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37109 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1achlA-00049n-22 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 18:06:48 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:24187) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1achl8-00049Z-IB for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 18:06:46 -0500 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u26N6dB6007524 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 6 Mar 2016 23:06:40 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u26N6ceW020051 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 6 Mar 2016 23:06:39 GMT Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u26N6bDZ016574; Sun, 6 Mar 2016 23:06:38 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <64a52598-ad53-498c-993c-67d7827dbdfc@default> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 15:06:36 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: John Wiegley , Emacs developers Subject: RE: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? (Was: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch) References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Maybe see this thread? http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-03/msg00904.html (FWIW, I have no opinion about where Emacs Dev puts change-log info.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 06 19:15:48 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2016 00:15:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37130 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acipv-0005ih-Th for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 19:15:48 -0500 Received: from mail-pf0-f172.google.com ([209.85.192.172]:36305) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acipu-0005iV-7z for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 19:15:46 -0500 Received: by mail-pf0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 63so68725239pfe.3 for <21998@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:15:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:reply-to:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=pf84a1rF0+GY3/pSsyb5Nd9u71k69QKWxc5RLRQwn7s=; b=aPCEojV/WjNtZgNJH0TreHNwgOl7zws4VQJbq1nuYXlJ4AlVngg759MaYia+K1FxXO EE8JUSQ1V70n5Ui7lGqNI1aFJZfr7LYERj6JDT0WaMdw73coZceqiS417XgF9empLc6f hR6Z0+ceLLyFUjTbGpHwkwPKA2KsrtkNLB8cQiAWR1X5ZTg++bp74MP9N9n6tUIzb7bV EwmdAnSRTI2D7jc3Wb8U2vH8JrL/M5YmajqLpUczHeTwU5txJkr6V9KzbDzI4lPxjIfx idzFuIHE5TGX19kUFOsCB2+8PxWmKVGiLwO3buJCrRzFTEQ8sz/lGGACUbFDM55PZjC8 aGQg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:reply-to:mail-followup-to:mime-version; bh=pf84a1rF0+GY3/pSsyb5Nd9u71k69QKWxc5RLRQwn7s=; b=MZSyaVv5FBCZ08xdJAanb6GU2pA+zoZc/MeMTfp4NEQ0VXfz6jLrZU57ApC66YjiDW dImrp8hZyV8mr4esRb7UZNQVmzjJADXWhZ7PoDxeyjPTW3GQECAUm+OJ0bWVn9VzbVl4 l+bxzsSG7Vl2qR6iIYfafRwAFRIDnJ/efFBasqwqxqmnLkzew7tCXHED0M+XqxdCN9yG r+5l7YIMod7JaSjYFRdeQL+XCPdRjGpAjxhzifaO43hY2Dd5KmH1No6AOaDrAIlwmMTV QQiMCV49EbB4rbRIBctO/vg/pAqDbO9KvOBx8mLHBVcbz/jF2EarJlG2wDxT7n2LXNZk Alig== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLgrLqOcaCRDOIdMqzGytGlVJn0s5cstZARc+YuzXi07IF/qADugouqfSLk9zJ2Qw== X-Received: by 10.98.80.22 with SMTP id e22mr28902889pfb.15.1457309740519; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:15:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b2sm19885990pfd.24.2016.03.06.16.15.38 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:15:39 -0800 (PST) From: John Wiegley X-Google-Original-From: John Wiegley Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1AA0D13428170; Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:15:38 -0800 (PST) To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? In-Reply-To: <64a52598-ad53-498c-993c-67d7827dbdfc@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 6 Mar 2016 15:06:36 -0800 (PST)") Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2016 16:15:14 -0800 Message-ID: References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <64a52598-ad53-498c-993c-67d7827dbdfc@default> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) Mail-Followup-To: Drew Adams , Emacs developers , 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Richard Stallman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Richard Stallman , Emacs developers X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: John Wiegley Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Drew Adams writes: > Maybe see this thread? > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-03/msg00904.html I respect that Richard may use them in a constructive way, but he's no long= er doing the majority of the work on Emacs, and I want to choose the path that works for the core developers, and will make Emacs more welcoming to new contributors. =2D-=20 John Wiegley GPG fingerprint =3D 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJW3MgSAAoJEMFE2PTxn+YwFTwL/A7ocGvAlBjyrz+pF/cXAed4 f/f0w4LuKNkt/nB99uF289TKIuhV6lIvbt0hPR6Hjn1uhVD+XK7yds9BGz6DQkG3 8n6VTYk4XyWn88/7O4JJ6KadQ7wota3PQurkGlczR8QeYAG3IjwSvfoloTKxGbkK GdiWiLJQYBOWkHKueYEUgJg7EMSYxTsXaZQTB704qrao71XnSVmtultE7cBk5q7p vLTlkmy3QvBEJtJXA3Rvbn2TONMIWadp8VAUUVM87xEYOlOGVkn2e41A6gZQsObC dbQjo9xgVSsyGS5hW69i6BlOpIQbGWcXqxRH1q1sgOURPPPQ8gY1NIZK+5HTkO/2 5y/K6yKrFxH33ufy16QVgSilooV7NhoYVa5jdv7mRI9VHMLkEZ0Kl2izFpmoGfST yfvqWdHAbNUn1eOigdwW+WVXI0iRuv1IY9dQ1iG7JEaLtJUxiXTyc16yzjSNgOVM dxl+VYbznF18SE4lSQIXhuxeig5yq1vsicBGvi43kQ== =t79+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 06 19:22:27 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2016 00:22:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37135 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aciwN-0005sO-Lq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 19:22:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:59960) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aciwL-0005sB-NI for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 19:22:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aciwB-0001Ki-K2 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 19:22:20 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:60531) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aciwB-0001Kd-Gy; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 19:22:15 -0500 Received: from mek33-4-82-236-46-88.fbx.proxad.net ([82.236.46.88]:57400 helo=godel) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1aciwA-00085U-UA; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 19:22:15 -0500 From: Mathieu Lirzin To: Emacs developers Subject: Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 01:22:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: (John Wiegley's message of "Sun, 06 Mar 2016 13:52:04 -0800") Message-ID: <87vb4zb0i4.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Hi, John Wiegley writes: > On Sun, Mar 06 2016 13:07 (-0800), John Wiegley wrote: >> >> I have always wanted to drop the ChangeLogs, so if the other developers agree, >> I'm all for it. Keeping ChangeLog style in the commit entry is not terribly >> useful either, since the diff output of log -p lets you know which function or >> variable is being modified. I've never missed not having that ChangeLog data >> in other projects, of any size. But that's up to the other developers and what >> makes their lives easier. > > I'd like to open this up to discussion on emacs-devel, so that we hear from > our other developers. What do you all think about ChangeLogs, and their value > to you in your work on Emacs? Discussing such thing seems reasonable. However I don't think any decision should be made by Emacs developpers on their own. Change Logs are part of the GCS so relaxing their requirement should be made at a GNU level instead. In my short experience, Change Logs has generally been useful both when reading and composing them. When writing them it helps me structure large changes in logical commits that are modelled by the Change Log format. Finally It helps me being precise in my wordings which is not trivial for non-native english speakers. On a more spiritual side, I think they belong to the zen of contributing to a GNU project. :) -- Mathieu Lirzin From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 06 19:24:26 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2016 00:24:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37139 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aciyI-0005vP-1C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 19:24:26 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:22137) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aciyF-0005v8-PW for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 19:24:24 -0500 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u270OHtt010054 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 7 Mar 2016 00:24:17 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u270OHVo018105 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 7 Mar 2016 00:24:17 GMT Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u270OHil022225; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 00:24:17 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9323ad8c-4d91-4ee8-b5fb-682eae744fb1@default> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:24:15 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: John Wiegley Subject: RE: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <64a52598-ad53-498c-993c-67d7827dbdfc@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Richard Stallman , Emacs developers X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > Maybe see this thread? > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013- > > 03/msg00904.html >=20 > I respect that Richard may use them in a constructive way, but he's > no longer doing the majority of the work on Emacs, and I want to > choose the path that works for the core developers, and will make > Emacs more welcoming to new contributors. I meant the thread, not that message. I meant to link to the first, not the third, message of the thread: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-03/msg00879.html The point is that the subject was the same, so it might serve as a good starting point now, to see what was said before about it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 06 20:20:00 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2016 01:20:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37186 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acjq4-0007CO-At for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 20:20:00 -0500 Received: from static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([71.162.243.5]:45864 helo=snark.thyrsus.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acjq2-0007CG-PU for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 20:19:59 -0500 Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8AFFB13A0476; Sun, 6 Mar 2016 20:19:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 20:19:58 -0500 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Mathieu Lirzin Subject: Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? Message-ID: <20160307011958.GA24456@thyrsus.com> References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <87vb4zb0i4.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87vb4zb0i4.fsf@gnu.org> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , Emacs developers X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Mathieu Lirzin : > On a more spiritual side, I think they belong to the zen of contributing > to a GNU project. :) Dear Goddess, I hope you're joking. Speaking as a very, *very* long-time GNU contributor (I'm pretty sure my earliest Emacs patches predated the formation of the FSF), I consider ChangeLogs a relic of a bygone era. Changelogs made some sense as a way of grouping together what we now call a changeset back in the days of file-oriented version-control systems. Nowadays, set against the actual changeset comments in version-control histories, Changelogs are a pointless and duplicative ritual. I think we should have dispensed with this practice during the CVS-to-bzr transition. As it is, the sooner gone the better. It's not as if retaining arbitrary hoops for new developers to have to jump through is a *good* idea. -- Eric S. Raymond From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 07 01:51:28 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2016 06:51:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37273 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acp0p-0006Tn-VP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 01:51:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:34662) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acp0o-0006Ta-GV for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 01:51:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acp0i-0000q9-O4 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 01:51:21 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:38272) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acp0i-0000q5-KQ for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 01:51:20 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1acp0f-0001gM-Gb; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 01:51:17 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Glenn Morris In-reply-to: (message from Glenn Morris on Fri, 04 Mar 2016 11:46:49 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 01:51:17 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > At this point, I give up, since it seems fairly clear that maintaining > an accurate ChangeLog just isn't of interest. Even the bare minimum > legally relevant mistakes (missing "tiny change") don't seem to be being > corrected. In concrete terms, what is the problem with these mistakes? Where is the master record of this information now? Is it being maintained correctly there? Probably just deleting it from the repo would be more honest. What exactly are you proposing as the new practice for handling ChangeLog files? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 07 04:27:26 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2016 09:27:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37320 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acrRm-0001yB-7v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 04:27:26 -0500 Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:44683) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acrRk-0001y3-JW for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 04:27:25 -0500 Received: (qmail 79468 invoked by uid 3782); 7 Mar 2016 09:27:22 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p5B1466FD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [91.20.102.253]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 10:27:20 +0100 Received: (qmail 1940 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 2016 09:29:55 -0000 Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 09:29:55 +0000 To: Emacs developers , Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , 21998@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? Message-ID: <20160307092954.GA1898@acm.fritz.box> References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Hello, John. On Sun, Mar 06, 2016 at 01:52:04PM -0800, John Wiegley wrote: > On Sun, Mar 06 2016 13:07 (-0800), John Wiegley wrote: > > I have always wanted to drop the ChangeLogs, so if the other > > developers agree, I'm all for it. Keeping ChangeLog style in the > > commit entry is not terribly useful either, .... I find that a strange thing to say. I frequently search the ChangeLog for the name of a function, to find out when it was last changed. I think the relatively rigid format of the ChangeLog/git commit messages very helpful. > > ...., since the diff output of log -p lets you know which function > > or variable is being modified. I've never missed not having that > > ChangeLog data in other projects, of any size. But that's up to the > > other developers and what makes their lives easier. The ChangeLog is easy to use. git is difficult to use (more precisely, is difficult to find out how to use). I've no idea what git log -p does, for example (though I'll be looking it up after I've posted this post :-). If we drop the ChangeLog we're cutting off its contents from those for whom discovering the appropriate git commands is too much work. > I'd like to open this up to discussion on emacs-devel, so that we hear from > our other developers. What do you all think about ChangeLogs, and their value > to you in your work on Emacs? The ChangeLog is useful, enabling things to be done that can't be done without it. If I want to see whether some change was made in Emacs 23.2, for example, I can either inspect 23.2's ChangeLog or spend several hours working out how to get the information out of git. No contest. The ChangeLog is distributed with the release, enabling our users to access its information. They typically don't have and/or don't know how to use git repositories. I'm decidedly in favour of keeping the ChangeLog. But surely an important consideration is whether the person/people who put in the work to generate it are prepared to carry on doing this. > -- > John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F > http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 07 11:02:17 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2016 16:02:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38233 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acxbt-0004wb-5W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:02:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:56513) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acxbr-0004wN-75 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:02:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acxbi-0001qS-Nv for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:02:09 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:46560) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acxbi-0001qO-KH for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:02:06 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1208 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1acxbV-0004gK-HR; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:01:54 -0500 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 18:02:00 +0200 Message-Id: <83oaaquvif.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rms@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Richard Stallman on Mon, 07 Mar 2016 01:51:17 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, rgm@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: Richard Stallman > Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 01:51:17 -0500 > Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org > > > At this point, I give up, since it seems fairly clear that maintaining > > an accurate ChangeLog just isn't of interest. Even the bare minimum > > legally relevant mistakes (missing "tiny change") don't seem to be being > > corrected. > > In concrete terms, what is the problem with these mistakes? The mistakes are not being corrected. Experience shows that correcting them is enough of an annoyance to discourage people. > Where is the master record of this information now? In the Git commit messages. > Is it being maintained correctly there? When a mistake is made there, it cannot be corrected, because Git commit log is immutable. Corrections must be made manually to a ChangeLog file produced from the Git log by a script. That proved not to work well, see above. It also proved to be a non-trivial problem when merging changes from the release branch to master -- for this latter issue we still don't have any idea for how to solve it reliably and without requiring a lot of manual labor. > Probably just deleting it from the repo would be more honest. > > What exactly are you proposing as the new practice > for handling ChangeLog files? There are 3 possibilities: . Keep the current system, where ChangeLog is produced from Git log and mistakes made in Git log should be corrected manually after producing ChangeLog . Give up on having ChangeLog files, either produced from Git log or maintained in the repository -- meaning a tarball will not include any ChangeLog at all . Go back to previous practice where we maintained ChangeLog files in the repository, and Git log messages were just copies of the ChangeLog entries From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 07 11:26:54 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2016 16:26:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38254 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acxzi-0005Xf-Aj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:26:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35242) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acxzg-0005XS-Hv for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:26:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acxzY-0000WP-4a for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:26:47 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:47007) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acxzY-0000WL-1L; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:26:44 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1288 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1acxzX-0004Bf-6v; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:26:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 18:26:49 +0200 Message-Id: <83a8mauud2.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Paul Eggert In-reply-to: <56DCB064.9060206@cs.ucla.edu> (message from Paul Eggert on Sun, 6 Mar 2016 14:34:12 -0800) Subject: Re: Is it time to drop ChangeLogs? (Was: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch) References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> <87y49vz4cg.fsf@acer.localhost.com> <56DCB064.9060206@cs.ucla.edu> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 14:34:12 -0800 > Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org > > John Wiegley wrote: > > What do you all think about ChangeLogs, and their value > > to you in your work on Emacs? > > I regularly do the equivalent of: > > grep PATTERN $(git ls-files | grep -v ChangeLog) > > That is, in searches I typically ignore ChangeLog* files because of their > less-useful chatter. It is a truism that when you know ChangeLog files don't included the information you are after, you'd like to exclude them. Likewise, when I'm looking for information that can only be found in ChangeLog files, I will filter out everything else as "less-useful chatter". > Even if we remove ChangeLogs, we should still have guidelines for commit message > format We won't be able to enforce that rule for long. It's a slippery slope. Very slippery. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 07 11:35:27 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2016 16:35:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38275 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acy7y-0005mb-V1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:35:27 -0500 Received: from mail-pa0-f43.google.com ([209.85.220.43]:34136) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acy7x-0005mO-Ak for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 11:35:25 -0500 Received: by mail-pa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id fy10so80986844pac.1 for <21998@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 08:35:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:reply-to:mime-version; bh=orRKZQLAo0xWy6fk6BxejZwSKKZALnMS6vCHseIJOmg=; b=rF/yi7koQCR9ErqTsEyWlJqyj46KLApUeUNyuz8+6gjktnCfkafNRBJEZzTlinJrOC USzw6fC/xqwxoWVUta+lANhYj/iW2r40DlwSeQ9dnDJ4V1Lxi4iuO+reWvHgjF0nZHgf PLNvzYMwTJa2Kq+quh98bKA+zNkkAqiirFrjtp6uiQCmkD3aGeFX1GQRvdeHhQPF0CzW 43Q4vE/YpsE/bazaRru/xdKn9x/ByOkK3pwoHJWOwe/bMJ+DFodvnyly2KUDYt0RCyRl TtnAekIrwWOmr54yqHUoQ9eyZSA+XY07eVuWvW52Vp1UPSi1/9h8zokoo9RBaPSwvG5b 0Kyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:reply-to:mime-version; bh=orRKZQLAo0xWy6fk6BxejZwSKKZALnMS6vCHseIJOmg=; b=jTbkJw4n+QrwAk3/9ZeokDhTtV6CAQun6X2VzECEz3e1C90lmLmHykIXZT1OwcuTZy NWa4ebNXyn3DweWEUGeBGMfhVRp0KOlBp0Eqc/YdlIn9g/fhFJJ3qp9VH70xLkr+ffUF h38raY6LJKFUmAi3mCHNZnhOl38XDLf4wChZwZ4Tz6LOZwAJCQszCO7FWAncdAONdDst wdQ66TeJpx3wCpGvnoIWmOLLyV8SjgaGm0FYQjxDIi3dAI1rdUMATtZ3PKNQaS02S7BC FoPrrtZHq99/kgvNrT7Iar52HJGSE+ecl6IRi4uEYkcvPofK9EiwI25i8qTdRpUe/6X2 EORg== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIfHA3cvT0iNLh62qgsBOgIGNm3IP4CtQBXsaxcl9BvvLMF9cbJx/bGI1/TqMtIyg== X-Received: by 10.66.222.129 with SMTP id qm1mr34189139pac.22.1457368519578; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 08:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f8sm25176161pfj.49.2016.03.07.08.35.18 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 07 Mar 2016 08:35:18 -0800 (PST) From: John Wiegley X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0C5D01353B76B; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 08:35:18 -0800 (PST) To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch In-Reply-To: <83oaaquvif.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 07 Mar 2016 18:02:00 +0200") Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 08:35:16 -0800 Message-ID: References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83oaaquvif.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.92 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: John Wiegley Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > . Keep the current system, where ChangeLog is produced from Git log > and mistakes made in Git log should be corrected manually after > producing ChangeLog If you really do want to keep ChangeLogs around, I'd prefer this over the third option. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 07 12:00:51 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2016 17:00:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38298 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acyWZ-0006UR-BJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 12:00:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46679) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1acyWY-0006UE-55 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 12:00:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acyWS-00025o-9E for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 12:00:45 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:47732) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1acyWN-00024f-O7; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 12:00:39 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1335 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1acyWF-0000sU-DL; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 12:00:31 -0500 Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 19:00:37 +0200 Message-Id: <83si02te8a.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: "John Wiegley" In-reply-to: (message from John Wiegley on Mon, 07 Mar 2016 08:35:16 -0800) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83oaaquvif.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: John Wiegley > Cc: rms@gnu.org, 21998@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 08:35:16 -0800 > > >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > . Keep the current system, where ChangeLog is produced from Git log > > and mistakes made in Git log should be corrected manually after > > producing ChangeLog > > If you really do want to keep ChangeLogs around, I'd prefer this over the > third option. That's the system we tried for the past year, and it clearly failed. Why should we continue to invest good money after bad money? Is it really that hard to copy/paste an entry from the ChangeLog to Git log, or the other way around? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 07 12:52:11 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Mar 2016 17:52:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38339 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aczKF-0007mz-2G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 12:52:11 -0500 Received: from mail-pa0-f52.google.com ([209.85.220.52]:33590) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aczKD-0007mn-89 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 12:52:09 -0500 Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id fl4so82099192pad.0 for <21998@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 09:52:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:reply-to:mime-version; bh=OddK3CgY6rbZdMnYVlWSxSafw0H35IDM46ohN+BKqF0=; b=IZ+U+HsS57saS3f9NPfz1vzS/g3XsZRgbFkj0SVQY1X0FbMEsy6vtUeEwFKzfYtsCT B+R+m5S9HBPvqITqxdc6Uw2LMe9OL9tyh8W5g9JvMjY97WmjohRyzYyAnsTcAOXLbPro QdPQV4RRA5q7ADNOAtd/pFw5CxDzG65CUFwF5xU3CenVJCXYgff6jrP+VOHmXXNWQ236 RI/zupjZfKQYsqKADheq4WgdzNMxI/8XTuqXf/0jcTazFufBkiY856jrOU/sFebB4TGf Hyy9OdR/wTnj7TxVaMJHxn+HhC3L95KVuI8QbLvsQOTiWVyuogL9CRrVyV5e7UwiGpG/ QT/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :references:user-agent:reply-to:mime-version; bh=OddK3CgY6rbZdMnYVlWSxSafw0H35IDM46ohN+BKqF0=; b=TCHjl6egSsL9iXFcdtV3jCrH+m5yaYq7Yl48pPBwscxnL3dxJa/SUAgXyitA5J5oBi baCsivOTxJr+H3KK+mQvXAEdIYJXnIEJIBdc4gWr1QR+MoqN77Va4yaIjHGQMBEdZ4tN n1+R9Z37jupFadrYg1lYIOyMT/GTiuyiVwSVVTgzm6pXMozF7wOk7MTSJ3lrffqXM1NN G8gENcY5rRGqbiijh4HxB3qXZFhPRJ+NPd5MdHmrxHVyqlzybCfB31aSMHJLiyi3ATC9 NqCvcV4qKN3Xc380KH5Wmr4RKUhDW1T9jura4aRI0BujoFwoTdsm000VoTcFXzB0eyvD q9mA== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJVP/Uq9cJyxmKUTbX8P6XbXTXbcjl1eoWt70ZcqYQiHkys+qtjMAsJtO1zUDIXtw== X-Received: by 10.66.252.73 with SMTP id zq9mr34871520pac.16.1457373123122; Mon, 07 Mar 2016 09:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id cz5sm7345389pac.30.2016.03.07.09.52.00 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 07 Mar 2016 09:52:00 -0800 (PST) From: John Wiegley X-Google-Original-From: John Wiegley Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id D91101357F044; Mon, 7 Mar 2016 09:51:59 -0800 (PST) To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch In-Reply-To: <83si02te8a.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 07 Mar 2016 19:00:37 +0200") Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 09:51:58 -0800 Message-ID: References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83oaaquvif.fsf@gnu.org> <83si02te8a.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/25.0.92 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: John Wiegley Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > Is it really that hard to copy/paste an entry from the ChangeLog to Git log, > or the other way around? I find it annoying and needlessly cumbersome. But you're doing far more work than I am, Eli. If this will make your life better, it's a change I can live with. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 08 02:32:30 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2016 07:32:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38579 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adC86-0001n0-4g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 02:32:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:38401) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adC84-0001mm-OD for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 02:32:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adC7u-00045r-DG for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 02:32:23 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:33265) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adC7p-00045Q-Gg; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 02:32:13 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1adC7o-0000Zb-LJ; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 02:32:12 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: Shots fired Majic Hostage Mexican army Sears Tower Crash X-Ran: !z*[!He#K51d)lFOKy,X0S!"\>LGd>``^"-.4m}&VCV\gY8rI$,7MlC|)sivC1{4QT>H>Y X-Hue: blue X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 02:32:12 -0500 In-Reply-To: <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 05 Mar 2016 21:11:40 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, John Wiegley X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Eli Zaretskii wrote: > I think if we care at all about having ChangeLog in the releases, we > should simply reinstate the file and maintain it in the repository. FWIW, that's not what I was hoping would come from this, and I think that would be a retrograde step. > if we don't do that, let's decide there will be no ChangeLog files in > the release tarballs at all, and stop worrying about these issues. It's an option; however, there are two issues, which aren't directly related: a) an undetermined number of people may be interested in following the history of Emacs changes without the VCS. Eg, those looking at release tarfiles. b) if you care about the quality of your history, you need a way to correct commit logs, which are (effectively) immutable in git. IMO Emacs should care about this, if only for legal reasons (eg you get the author wrong while committing, or forget "tiny change"). I care about b), but not really about a). Or maybe b) is irrelevant too, I don't know. Other options: 1) Fix the merging problem. Eg the idea of using differently named ChangeLog.2/.3 files for emacs-25 and master was mentioned. This is a mess for people in a) trying to follow the Clog in time order. 2) Go back to only allowing versioned ChangeLog.2 on master branch. This is least-effort, and removes the merging problem. a) doesn't benefit from corrections, but at least the legal corrections can be made in master. For 1) and 2), experience shows that few people will bother to make corrections. 3) Stop keeping a versioned ChangeLog.2 in the repo, include a generated, unfixed ChangeLog in release tarfiles. This addresses a) at some level but ignores b). 4) Develop a better method for correcting commit log errors. Eg, a file that lists problematic git hashes and the corrected log message. This could be similar to git notes, but could just be a text file. You'd need to develop a little bit of infrastructure to help people use the system. Recent experience suggests few people would use it. It would not have the merging problem that the current system does. It would address b), and a) if you used it while generating the ChangeLog. PS For the record, to explain the actual merging issue as I see it: Suppose emacs-25 and master are synced at revision aaa and ChangeLog.2 is up-to-date. emacs-25 advances to rev xxx, and independently master to rev xxx'. emacs-25 gets ChangeLog.2 updated, and merged to master. Now the footer of master ChangeLog.2 reports that it is up-to-date to rev xxx. What does this mean for the changes on master between aaa and xxx'? Because xxx on master is "after" xxx', I suspect it means they end up missing from ChangeLog.2 forever, which is bad. But maybe there's no such issue, or it is fixable with some git trivia. I don't know. That's why I made this bug report. AFAICS, the adopted "solution" was simply to ignore the issue, which means master/ChangeLog.2 is (probably) messed up at the moment. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 08 11:08:22 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2016 16:08:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39877 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adKBK-000279-2v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 11:08:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:47011) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adKBI-00026x-5j for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 11:08:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adKB7-0001XD-A3 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 11:08:15 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:42019) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adKB5-0001Wl-7S; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 11:08:07 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2713 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1adKB3-00025V-Sg; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 11:08:06 -0500 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 18:08:15 +0200 Message-Id: <83egblrlzk.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Glenn Morris In-reply-to: (message from Glenn Morris on Tue, 08 Mar 2016 02:32:12 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83vb50wxhv.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, johnw@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: Glenn Morris > Cc: John Wiegley , 21998@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 02:32:12 -0500 > > > I think if we care at all about having ChangeLog in the releases, we > > should simply reinstate the file and maintain it in the repository. > > FWIW, that's not what I was hoping would come from this, and I think > that would be a retrograde step. Can you tell why? It solves all the problems you mention in your mail, at negligible costs. So it seems to be a clear winner. > For 1) and 2), experience shows that few people will bother to make > corrections. Is it an important drawback that few people bother to make corrections? If it is, then any solution that involves such corrections is not what we want. Also, is the situation with corrections worse or better than what it was when we maintained ChangeLog files in the repository? > PS For the record, to explain the actual merging issue as I see it: > > Suppose emacs-25 and master are synced at revision aaa and ChangeLog.2 > is up-to-date. emacs-25 advances to rev xxx, and independently master to > rev xxx'. emacs-25 gets ChangeLog.2 updated, and merged to master. Now > the footer of master ChangeLog.2 reports that it is up-to-date to rev > xxx. What does this mean for the changes on master between aaa and xxx'? > Because xxx on master is "after" xxx', I suspect it means they end up > missing from ChangeLog.2 forever, which is bad. No, they don't end up missing. They will in general be in the "wrong" order, time-wise, though. But what is the "right" order for this situation, where changes are made in parallel on several branches? Do we want them interwoven, in strict order of their commit times? Or do we want all the entries of a merge from the branch be kept together with the time stamp of the merge? If we want to continue keeping a single generated ChangeLog file on master and on the branch, we need to decide what is the desired result. > But maybe there's no such issue, or it is fixable with some git > trivia. The only "git trivia" that's possible is a custom merge driver (which AFAIK doesn't exist). Git itself is not aware of the special meaning of the time stamps in ChangeLog entries. We could also have some Lisp rearranging the entries in whatever order we decide we want it, after git-merge-changelog puts them in the order it thinks is right. > I don't know. That's why I made this bug report. AFAICS, the adopted > "solution" was simply to ignore the issue, which means > master/ChangeLog.2 is (probably) messed up at the moment. It is not messed, but it isn't in chronological order, either. And it looks like no one ran "make change-history" on master for several moons, so problems might become worse when they do. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 08 13:23:32 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2016 18:23:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39977 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adMI7-0005Mo-W8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:23:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:32869) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adMI6-0005Mb-81 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:23:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adMHx-0000rl-Co for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:23:25 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:44884) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adMHx-0000ra-8U for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:23:21 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1adMHw-00060s-6Z; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:23:20 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <83oaaquvif.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Mon, 07 Mar 2016 18:02:00 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83oaaquvif.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:23:20 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, rgm@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > In concrete terms, what is the problem with these mistakes? > The mistakes are not being corrected. If some people don't correct some mistakes, that is unfortunate, but the existence of the file ChangeLog does no harm in that case. It merely provides an opportunity that was missed. The file imposes no extra work when people leave mistakes uncorrected. When some mistakes do get corrected, then the file does good. Moreover someone else who notices the mistake could correct it later. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 08 13:30:20 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2016 18:30:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39981 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adMOi-0005XL-NX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:30:20 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:37297) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adMOh-0005X7-Lc for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:30:19 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adMOY-0003as-TE for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:30:14 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:45166) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adMOY-0003ao-QX for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:30:10 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3012 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1adMOR-0005Qk-CN; Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:30:03 -0500 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 20:30:12 +0200 Message-Id: <83egbkrfez.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rms@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Richard Stallman on Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:23:20 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83oaaquvif.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, rgm@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: Richard Stallman > CC: rgm@gnu.org, 21998@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:23:20 -0500 > > > > In concrete terms, what is the problem with these mistakes? > > > The mistakes are not being corrected. > > If some people don't correct some mistakes, that is unfortunate, > but the existence of the file ChangeLog does no harm in that case. > It merely provides an opportunity that was missed. > The file imposes no extra work when people leave mistakes uncorrected. > > When some mistakes do get corrected, then the file does good. > > Moreover someone else who notices the mistake could correct it later. I agree, but you seem to assume that ChangeLog files are kept in the repository. If they were, there wouldn't be a problem. They aren't; they are generated from Git log. And mistakes in Git log cannot be fixed. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 09 11:38:33 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2016 16:38:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41728 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adh85-0001ui-D4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:38:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:55382) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adh84-0001uS-8X for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:38:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adh7y-0006J0-CS for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:38:27 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:41222) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adh7y-0006Iq-95 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:38:26 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1adh7w-0006KN-Ti; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:38:25 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <83egbkrfez.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Tue, 08 Mar 2016 20:30:12 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83oaaquvif.fsf@gnu.org> <83egbkrfez.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:38:24 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, rgm@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I agree, but you seem to assume that ChangeLog files are kept in the > repository. If they were, there wouldn't be a problem. They aren't; > they are generated from Git log. I am trying to understand the situation from what I read in some of these messages. If the ChangeLog files are only generated from the Git log mssages, which cannot be corrected, then how does fixing ChangeLog entries work? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 09 11:50:56 2016 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2016 16:50:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41751 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adhK4-0002Dr-H4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:50:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:33041) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adhK3-0002Dg-LS for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:50:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adhJx-0002fY-VA for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:50:50 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:41593) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adhJx-0002fS-Sv for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:50:49 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1adhJw-0008Lk-VB for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:50:49 -0500 Subject: control message for bug 19759 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.99.98) Message-Id: From: Glenn Morris Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:50:48 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) unblock 19759 by 21998 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 09 11:51:16 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2016 16:51:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41755 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adhKN-0002Ey-OP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:51:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:33098) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adhKM-0002Em-S9 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:51:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adhKE-0002iy-N8 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:51:09 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:41597) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adhKE-0002is-KJ for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:51:06 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3892 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1adhK1-0008M1-Kl; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:50:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 18:51:05 +0200 Message-Id: <831t7jppc6.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rms@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Richard Stallman on Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:38:24 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83oaaquvif.fsf@gnu.org> <83egbkrfez.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, rgm@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: Richard Stallman > CC: rgm@gnu.org, 21998@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:38:24 -0500 > > I am trying to understand the situation from what I read in some of > these messages. If the ChangeLog files are only generated from the > Git log mssages, which cannot be corrected, then how does fixing ChangeLog > entries work? We fix the generated ChangeLog. The person who makes a mistake is supposed to invoke "make change-history", which updates the file ChangeLog.2 with the log messages of the recent commits (by running Git with a suitably computed command line), and then edit the updated file and commit the result. "make change-history" incrementally updates ChangeLog.2, so the next time it is invoked, only the later commits will be added to the file. This worked, more or less, as long as we only developed on master (except that not everyone who made mistakes bothered to correct them). But as soon as we started to work on both master and the release branch, this broke down because merges from the release branch to master don't live well with the manual corrections. This was never fixed because there appears to be no motivation for fixing it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 09 16:57:27 2016 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2016 21:57:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41913 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adm6g-0002k2-SV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 16:57:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:54257) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1adm6e-0002jp-RK for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 16:57:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adm6Z-0004W1-3Q for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 16:57:19 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:48349) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adm6Z-0004Vx-09 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 16:57:19 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1adm6Y-00056q-MY for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 16:57:18 -0500 Subject: control message for bug 21998 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.99.98) Message-Id: From: Glenn Morris Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 16:57:18 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) # I think this report is not useful tag 21998 notabug close 21998 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 10 16:23:58 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Mar 2016 21:23:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44130 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1ae83p-0004hV-Vi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:23:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:58894) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1ae83o-0004hK-U4 for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:23:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ae83i-0007LI-UO for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:23:51 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:49162) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ae83i-0007LD-RR for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:23:50 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ae83h-0000p5-Vl; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:23:50 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <831t7jppc6.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Wed, 09 Mar 2016 18:51:05 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83oaaquvif.fsf@gnu.org> <83egbkrfez.fsf@gnu.org> <831t7jppc6.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:23:49 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, rgm@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > But as soon as we started to work on both master and the release > branch, this broke down because merges from the release branch to > master don't live well with the manual corrections. This was never > fixed because there appears to be no motivation for fixing it. Maybe this discussion gives people the motivation to fix it. Is there a clear path for fixing it? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 03:49:06 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2016 08:49:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44277 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aeIks-0003iV-O4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 03:49:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:39254) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aeIkr-0003i0-Be for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 03:49:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aeIkl-00048b-JZ for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 03:49:00 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:57141) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aeIkl-00048W-GX for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 03:48:59 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3251 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1aeIka-00034U-4p; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 03:48:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 10:48:43 +0200 Message-Id: <83vb4tjt78.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rms@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Richard Stallman on Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:23:49 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83oaaquvif.fsf@gnu.org> <83egbkrfez.fsf@gnu.org> <831t7jppc6.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 Cc: 21998@debbugs.gnu.org, rgm@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: Richard Stallman > CC: rgm@gnu.org, 21998@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:23:49 -0500 > > > But as soon as we started to work on both master and the release > > branch, this broke down because merges from the release branch to > > master don't live well with the manual corrections. This was never > > fixed because there appears to be no motivation for fixing it. > > Maybe this discussion gives people the motivation to fix it. I hope so. > Is there a clear path for fixing it? Not yet, AFAICT. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 11 05:05:04 2016 Received: (at 21998) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Mar 2016 10:05:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44299 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aeJwN-0005bX-TP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 05:05:04 -0500 Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.28]:50727) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aeJwM-0005bQ-PP for 21998@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 05:05:03 -0500 Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FFEA20ACA for <21998@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 05:05:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 11 Mar 2016 05:05:02 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=GcqOg3h7Ir22DF4KrzgMRwXUqYs=; b=h2qq4 mJFSTRjsHRxTmAJwY8rBIKWIm8SMaNPiG4ecdjtUcBEtio49RfdwMvhLau/aTy1P 5+ErqaBmlYIzwuvDI5Yixvn99ylXPJ1aT+8L2f6KaO4Ve+eBlCoqk5ODRVMymTTB quVtmDt7HJN/jQDqyZ0w7tcmvWVB9m3WaEAqSw= X-Sasl-enc: TB0ouMgwSC7VyRTGr37txDZ2+4Bpx2vFN7bolOHqLZTk 1457690701 Received: from blueberry (89-156-196-194.rev.numericable.fr [89.156.196.194]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B60C8680159; Fri, 11 Mar 2016 05:05:01 -0500 (EST) From: Nicolas Petton To: Glenn Morris , 21998@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#21998: Run 'make change-history' on release branch In-Reply-To: References: <56BE7E37.3090708@cs.ucla.edu> <4hd1rw1ubr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Notmuch/0.21 (http://notmuchmail.org) Emacs/25.1.50.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 11:05:00 +0100 Message-ID: <87egbhnxdf.fsf@petton.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21998 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Glenn Morris writes: > At this point, I give up, since it seems fairly clear that maintaining > an accurate ChangeLog just isn't of interest. Even the bare minimum > legally relevant mistakes (missing "tiny change") don't seem to be being > corrected. Just catching up with emails, so I might have missed your point, but for each pretest, I try to fix the ChangeLog, or are you talking about something else? Nico --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJW4phMAAoJECM1h6R8IHkQ4VAH/REErL3VX7rYISU0h55nIjew KoEYe9N96IJeAHFDoGP7YlRE7zmRGeaBtrcTee1ZHctpiXAGxiwmleVHrSyRjC7w hMpK1EhLlI6F3fIj+EdhtA7D1BLf9BBPQujHtQhfuWCpoQAZPRwRFAm2JLCMFpqc S0uleOcCdc+f/BPOAhA8xNQHbfvkmUsSq1wESOgF1q2nNeG8YHYAMvpRlrCZzRqb Dee4y0+kGH2TtVvGYFMfoYUFyZlnB0GW+9Yr0+oebw1NoVdtiowBaEOxP4qelKuB fnSkWJmOlo2USNFe7uSYga+IrmmYj2iKdPJ8fH0DOTYpfGwchY8Z7NqfgmYclBs= =D8jx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From unknown Sat Jun 21 17:35:51 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2016 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator