From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: "Roland Winkler" Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:45:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 21746@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.144562946421303 (code B ref -1); Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:45:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Oct 2015 19:44:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35147 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpiGG-0005XX-3l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:44:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:44796) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpiGD-0005XN-W7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:44:22 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpiGC-0005tK-OK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:44:21 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:59752) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpiGC-0005tG-LP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:44:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54802) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpiGB-0000bs-PH for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:44:20 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpiGA-0005sS-QC for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:44:19 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:41544) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpiGA-0005sI-NH for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:44:18 -0400 Received: from [2602:30a:2e52:d720:317d:3b04:76ec:4ee6] (port=32891 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpiGA-0008Nw-9a for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:44:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:44:08 -0500 From: "Roland Winkler" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) While I have used emacs for many years, I have never figured out a reason why copying a file in dired gives the copied file a marker `C'. So today I wanted to find out, but I failed: the docstring of dired-do-copy does not explain it, dired-keep-marker-copy does not explain it, and in the emacs info manual I could not find anything useful either. What is the purpose of this feature? It appears to me that it is a feature for experts which is at best distracting for ordinary users. I suggest: either explain it somewhere that is not too hard to find or give dired-keep-marker-copy a default value of nil (and similar for dired-keep-marker-hardlink, dired-keep-marker-symlink). In GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.10.8) of 2015-05-27 on regnitz Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11600000 System Description: Ubuntu 14.04.3 LTS From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:31:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Roland Winkler , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144563224825737 (code B ref 21746); Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:31:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Oct 2015 20:30:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35189 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zpiz9-0006gy-K9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:30:48 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:48639) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zpiyw-0006gR-RJ for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:30:36 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9NKUWY0032614 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:30:33 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9NKUWCi032243 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:30:32 GMT Received: from abhmp0004.oracle.com (abhmp0004.oracle.com [141.146.116.10]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9NKUVCC017199; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:30:32 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:30:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> In-Reply-To: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > I have never figured out a > reason why copying a file in dired gives the copied file a marker > `C'. The reason (IMO) is that the marker indicates what the operation was, so you can easily identify - *and then operate on* the files that were copied (or whatever the operation was). What might be missing for you is this bit of info: `* c' lets you change the char that is used for a given mark. So you can, for example, change all `C' marks at a given moment to, say, `*' marks, and then use any action on the marked files (which acts on `*'-marked files). Or change it to `D' and then delete the flagged files. Because mark `C' is used, there is no confusion with files that might be marked with `*' or any other mark. You can have any number of different marks at any time, giving them any conceptual meaning you like. Change any of them to `*' to convert their files and dirs to a set that you then act on in some way. Dunno how much of this is documented in the manual, but once you look at `C-h m' and then its mention of `* c', you can pretty much imagine how it can be put to good use. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: "Roland Winkler" Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:56:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144563371928048 (code B ref 21746); Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:56:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Oct 2015 20:55:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35228 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpjMt-0007IK-5b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:55:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36093) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpjMY-0007Hb-Q1 for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:55:17 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpjMX-0003e4-LG for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:54:58 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:42786) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpjMX-0003e0-Hx; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:54:57 -0400 Received: from [2602:30a:2e52:d720:317d:3b04:76ec:4ee6] (port=32957 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpjMX-0001qi-6L; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:54:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:54:55 -0500 From: "Roland Winkler" In-Reply-To: <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) On Fri Oct 23 2015 Drew Adams wrote: > What might be missing for you is this bit of info: > `* c' lets you change the char that is used for a given > mark. So you can, for example, change all `C' marks at > a given moment to, say, `*' marks, and then use any > action on the marked files (which acts on `*'-marked > files). Or change it to `D' and then delete the flagged > files. Thank you, indeed I was missing this piece of info. I am just wondering: how often are you using this? Is this a feature which should be exposed to all emacs beginners? If yes, it needs to be documented better. > Dunno how much of this is documented in the manual, but once you > look at `C-h m' and then its mention of `* c', you can pretty much > imagine how it can be put to good use. Yes, you are probably right. dired-change-marks bound to `* c' seems to be the command that needs to be advertised better in order to make these marks useful. (In my every-day usage of dired, I still do not see actual benefits from this feature.) Roland From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:59:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Roland Winkler Cc: 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.14456374821166 (code B ref 21746); Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:59:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Oct 2015 21:58:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35256 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpkLa-0000Ij-9G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 17:58:02 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:16824) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpkLG-0000I2-FW for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 17:58:00 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9NLvb9t030903 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:57:39 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9NLvbRN021398 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:57:37 GMT Received: from abhmp0004.oracle.com (abhmp0004.oracle.com [141.146.116.10]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9NLvbjg021824; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:57:37 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:57:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> In-Reply-To: <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > Thank you, indeed I was missing this piece of info. I am just > wondering: how often are you using this? Is this a feature which > should be exposed to all emacs beginners? If yes, it needs to be > documented better. There is a lot in Dired that I think should be exposed/documented better/more. By default we don't even load dired-x.el or dired-aux.el, and they provide lots of stuff useful even for beginners, including lots of menus. I would be in favor of our loading both of these Dired libraries by default. There is lots in Dired that users can benefit from, but they are typically unaware of it. (Also, we provide only rudimentary font-lock highlighting.) > > Dunno how much of this is documented in the manual, but once you > > look at `C-h m' and then its mention of `* c', you can pretty much > > imagine how it can be put to good use. >=20 > Yes, you are probably right. dired-change-marks bound to `* c' > seems to be the command that needs to be advertised better in order > to make these marks useful. (In my every-day usage of dired, > I still do not see actual benefits from this feature.) Marking with `C' is still useful, even if you never do anything with those marks. It provides a clear indication of the copied files. You can always remove just the `C' marks (using `M-DEL', aka `'), if they get in your way. Or remove all marks (using `C-u M-DEL'). `M-DEL' is another key that is not as well known as it should be, IMO. All in all, we don't advertise much of what Dired has to offer. (FWIW, Stefan made it clear that he never uses Dired.) From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: "Roland Winkler" Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:21:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144564964819443 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:21:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 01:20:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35267 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpnVn-00053X-IU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:20:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:41339) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpnVT-00052w-Pz for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:20:46 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpnVS-0008Ot-L1 for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:20:27 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:48001) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpnVS-0008Oj-BO; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:20:26 -0400 Received: from [2602:30a:2e52:d720:317d:3b04:76ec:4ee6] (port=33121 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpnVR-0001tu-ML; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:20:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:20:23 -0500 From: "Roland Winkler" In-Reply-To: <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) On Fri Oct 23 2015 Drew Adams wrote: > There is a lot in Dired that I think should be exposed/documented > better/more. By default we don't even load dired-x.el or > dired-aux.el, and they provide lots of stuff useful even for > beginners, including lots of menus. > > I would be in favor of our loading both of these Dired libraries > by default. There is lots in Dired that users can benefit from, > but they are typically unaware of it. There is a big difference between exposing and documenting more features from dired. I immediately agree on better documentation of dired features. But I am not sure it will make new emacs users happy when they get overwhelmed by features they do not understand. Advanced users, on the other hand, know how to read the manuals and then get the customization they want. > Marking with `C' is still useful, even if you never do anything > with those marks. It provides a clear indication of the copied > files. That's exactly why these C's are irritating and inconsistent: the properly documented marks `*' and `D' serve the purpose of indicating that an action _will be_ performed on certain files. The C's indicate that an action _has been_ performed and they get into the way when you are using the other marks. Say, before marking files for some new action I type `g' (revert-buffer). If this gives me an unmodified buffer, there are no left-over marks floating around that I have overlooked. The C's are just in the way for how marks are used otherwise. Roland From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 05:27:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.14456643809332 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 05:27:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 05:26:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35325 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZprLQ-0002QR-9C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:26:20 -0400 Received: from mtaout24.012.net.il ([80.179.55.180]:33564) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZprLO-0002QJ-KE for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:26:19 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout24.012.net.il by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NWP00K00KWFV500@mtaout24.012.net.il> for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:19:41 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NWP00L0ILGTZY10@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:19:41 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:26:23 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83k2qcygzk.fsf@gnu.org> References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:57:35 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 21746@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Thank you, indeed I was missing this piece of info. I am just > > wondering: how often are you using this? Is this a feature which > > should be exposed to all emacs beginners? If yes, it needs to be > > documented better. > > There is a lot in Dired that I think should be exposed/documented > better/more. By default we don't even load dired-x.el or > dired-aux.el, and they provide lots of stuff useful even for > beginners, including lots of menus. > > I would be in favor of our loading both of these Dired libraries > by default. There is lots in Dired that users can benefit from, > but they are typically unaware of it. Aren't the commands and options there autoloaded? If not, we could autoload them, which would solve the visibility problem without bloating the minimal memory footprint too much. Patches welcome. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 06:11:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144566705213558 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 06:11:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 06:10:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35333 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zps2V-0003Wb-Ja for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 02:10:51 -0400 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:47626) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zps2A-0003W2-OW for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 02:10:49 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NWP00H00NP1YC00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 09:10:29 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NWP00HW9NTHV430@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 09:10:29 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 09:10:34 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83d1w4yexx.fsf@gnu.org> References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:30:29 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > > > I have never figured out a > > reason why copying a file in dired gives the copied file a marker > > `C'. > > The reason (IMO) is that the marker indicates what the > operation was, so you can easily identify - *and then > operate on* the files that were copied (or whatever > the operation was). > > What might be missing for you is this bit of info: > `* c' lets you change the char that is used for a given > mark. So you can, for example, change all `C' marks at > a given moment to, say, `*' marks, and then use any > action on the marked files (which acts on `*'-marked > files). Or change it to `D' and then delete the flagged > files. > > Because mark `C' is used, there is no confusion with > files that might be marked with `*' or any other mark. > > You can have any number of different marks at any time, > giving them any conceptual meaning you like. Change > any of them to `*' to convert their files and dirs to > a set that you then act on in some way. > > Dunno how much of this is documented in the manual, > but once you look at `C-h m' and then its mention > of `* c', you can pretty much imagine how it can be > put to good use. Patches to document this are welcome. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:05:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Roland Winkler Cc: 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144567385424545 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:05:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 08:04:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35473 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZptoC-0006No-Qf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:04:13 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:36061) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZptoA-0006NZ-0A for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:04:10 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9O8488F026466 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:04:08 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9O847Dn011989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:04:08 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9O847Yj014246; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:04:07 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:04:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> In-Reply-To: <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > There is a lot in Dired that I think should be exposed/documented > > better/more. By default we don't even load dired-x.el or > > dired-aux.el, and they provide lots of stuff useful even for > > beginners, including lots of menus. > > > > I would be in favor of our loading both of these Dired libraries > > by default. There is lots in Dired that users can benefit from, > > but they are typically unaware of it. >=20 > There is a big difference between exposing and documenting more > features from dired. We generally don't document stuff in the manual that is not exposed by default. Loading dired-x.el and dired-aux.el along with dired.el would help users, IMO. (We are not in 1985 anymore, when it might have made sense to reduce the default footprint of Dired.) > I immediately agree on better documentation of > dired features. But I am not sure it will make new emacs users > happy when they get overwhelmed by features they do not understand. > Advanced users, on the other hand, know how to read the manuals and > then get the customization they want. There is no overwhelming by dired-x.el or dired-aux.el. No one requires anyone to use or even be aware of a particular command or key that is available. The proof: `* c' has been available to you since Day One, as part of dired.el, and you admit that you just learned about it today. So clearly its presence did not overwhelm you all these years. ;-) > > Marking with `C' is still useful, even if you never do anything > > with those marks. It provides a clear indication of the copied > > files. >=20 > That's exactly why these C's are irritating and inconsistent: the > properly documented marks `*' and `D' serve the purpose of > indicating that an action _will be_ performed on certain files. No, they just mark files, in particular ways (different ways). They indicate that actions _might_ be performed on the files. > The C's indicate that an action _has been_ performed And that actions might be performed on the files they mark. Via `* c'. There is nothing unique about `C' marks in that context. Once you know about `* c' you know that any mark can serve to both (a) mark files in a particular way, distinguishing them and (b) allow you to act on them (via `* c'). You can, in effect, temporarily tag sets of files in different ways (using different marks), and then act on them. > and they get into the way when you are using the other marks. No, not in terms of actions that use those marks. An action that acts on `*' marks or `D' marks does not act on `C' marks. (I assume you meant only `*' and `D' by "the other marks", though there can be any number of other marks.) > Say, before marking files for some new action I type `g' > (revert-buffer). If this gives me an unmodified buffer, there are > no left-over marks floating around that I have overlooked. The C's > are just in the way for how marks are used otherwise. You could make a reasonable argument that all marks should be removed by `g', but that is a separate question. I might disagree with that argument, but it is a reasonable one. (FWIW, if you want to remove all marks you can use `C-x C-v', but that updates the listing, which `g' does not do.) From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:05:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144567385724558 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:05:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 08:04:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35475 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZptoF-0006O0-Mo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:04:16 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:50952) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZptoB-0006Ng-Op for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:04:12 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9O84A8f004206 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:04:10 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9O84ATJ019006 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:04:10 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9O849xZ014253; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:04:09 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:04:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <<36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL>> <<69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default>> <<40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL>> <<987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default>> <<83k2qcygzk.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83k2qcygzk.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > > Thank you, indeed I was missing this piece of info. I am just > > > wondering: how often are you using this? Is this a feature which > > > should be exposed to all emacs beginners? If yes, it needs to be > > > documented better. > > > > There is a lot in Dired that I think should be exposed/documented > > better/more. By default we don't even load dired-x.el or > > dired-aux.el, and they provide lots of stuff useful even for > > beginners, including lots of menus. > > > > I would be in favor of our loading both of these Dired libraries > > by default. There is lots in Dired that users can benefit from, > > but they are typically unaware of it. >=20 > Aren't the commands and options there autoloaded? No. > If not, we could autoload them, which would solve the > visibility problem without bloating the minimal memory > footprint too much. Patches welcome. No, it would not solve the visibility or discoverability problem, IMO. Users are much more likely to find and use the commands and keys they provide when they are (a) in the menus and (b) documented in `C-h m'. As for the minimal footprint: dired.el is not even loaded by default (`C-x d' is autoloaded). These 3 libraries are no big deal, footprint-wise. *IF* a user chooses to use `C-x d', and thus pay the cost of loading dired.el, it is not a big deal to load the other two at the same time and get the benefit of their menu additions, keys, and commands. (IMHO.) But hey, it's been like this for 40 years. I have no problem with it continuing like this for another 40. ;-) (I use Dired+, which does load the other 2, in addition to adding more stuff to bloat the memory. ;-)) From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:12:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144567429925213 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:12:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 08:11:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35480 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZptvP-0006Yb-CH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:11:39 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:50353) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zptv5-0006Y8-DK for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:11:38 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NWP00J00SZRF800@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:11:17 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NWP00JOZTET4V90@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:11:17 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:11:23 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <837fmcy9ck.fsf@gnu.org> References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:04:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 21746@debbugs.gnu.org > > > There is a big difference between exposing and documenting more > > features from dired. > > We generally don't document stuff in the manual that is not > exposed by default. That's not true, there are a lot of stuff documented in the manual that isn't exposed by default. Rmail, for instance. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:14:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144567440425377 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:14:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 08:13:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35484 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zptx5-0006bE-Ts for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:13:24 -0400 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:52190) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zptx3-0006b5-Se for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:13:22 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NWP00I00TF18P00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:13:20 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NWP00IVGTI83D70@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:13:20 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:13:26 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83611wy995.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:04:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > There is a lot in Dired that I think should be exposed/documented > > > better/more. By default we don't even load dired-x.el or > > > dired-aux.el, and they provide lots of stuff useful even for > > > beginners, including lots of menus. > > > > > > I would be in favor of our loading both of these Dired libraries > > > by default. There is lots in Dired that users can benefit from, > > > but they are typically unaware of it. > > > > Aren't the commands and options there autoloaded? > > No. > > > If not, we could autoload them, which would solve the > > visibility problem without bloating the minimal memory > > footprint too much. Patches welcome. > > No, it would not solve the visibility or discoverability > problem, IMO. Users are much more likely to find and use > the commands and keys they provide when they are (a) in > the menus and (b) documented in `C-h m'. > > As for the minimal footprint: dired.el is not even loaded > by default (`C-x d' is autoloaded). You said above that we don't load dired-x and dired-aux, so I thought you meant this in contrast with dired.el itself which is preloaded. I should have checked, sorry. But if none of them is preloaded, what is it that we do with dired.el and don't do with the other two packages? From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:18:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144567463225747 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:18:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 08:17:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35488 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zpu0l-0006hD-Kp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:17:11 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:17229) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zpu0j-0006h3-Iz for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:17:09 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9O8H7Ok012965 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:17:08 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9O8H7Lk012509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:17:07 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9O8H6S6020242; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:17:07 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <875f037b-3321-42b7-9128-bb4dd2bd1f7f@default> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:17:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <<36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL>> <<69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default>> <<40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL>> <<987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default>> <<56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL>> <> <<837fmcy9ck.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<837fmcy9ck.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > > There is a big difference between exposing and documenting more > > > features from dired. > > > > We generally don't document stuff in the manual that is not > > exposed by default. >=20 > That's not true, there are a lot of stuff documented in the manual > that isn't exposed by default. Rmail, for instance. There is some such stuff. But there is certainly a lot more that is not. I stand by my statement, which intentionally said that we "_generally_" do not document stuff that is not exposed by default. We certainly do not _generally document_ stuff in the manual that is not exposed by default. But if you want to document all, or even some, of the keys and commands provided by dired-x.el and dired-aux.el, even without loading them along with dired.el, that's fine by me. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:23:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144567493626219 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:23:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 08:22:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35493 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zpu5g-0006op-B6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:22:16 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:18027) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zpu5M-0006o8-0N for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:22:14 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9O8LsEZ016326 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:21:55 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9O8LsxY022790 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:21:54 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9O8Lso3021312; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:21:54 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:21:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <> <<83611wy995.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83611wy995.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > But if none of them is preloaded, what is it that we do with dired.el > and don't do with the other two packages? We load dired.el when you use `C-x d' (or `C-x 4 d' etc.). We do not load the other two when you do that. I think we should. We should consider them an integral part of Dired, including for documentation purposes. I see no reason not to. I don't even see any reason for the division into 3 files at this point. But it doesn't bother me that there are 3. I just think they should be treated together, as if one. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:25:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144567509826444 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:25:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 08:24:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35497 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zpu8H-0006sS-VY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:24:58 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:54941) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zpu8G-0006sK-2x for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:24:56 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NWP00100TMFXT00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:24:54 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NWP001F9U1IVY50@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:24:54 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:25:00 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <875f037b-3321-42b7-9128-bb4dd2bd1f7f@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <834mhgy8pv.fsf@gnu.org> References: <875f037b-3321-42b7-9128-bb4dd2bd1f7f@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:17:05 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org > > We certainly do not _generally document_ stuff in the manual > that is not exposed by default. > > But if you want to document all, or even some, of the keys > and commands provided by dired-x.el and dired-aux.el, even > without loading them along with dired.el, that's fine by me. Would you like to propose documentation patches for the Dired stuff you think is important, but is missing from the manual? TIA. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:29:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144567533826785 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:29:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 08:28:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35501 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpuC9-0006xw-Kc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:28:58 -0400 Received: from mtaout27.012.net.il ([80.179.55.183]:38140) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpuC7-0006xm-19 for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:28:56 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout27.012.net.il by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NWP00D00TL10Z00@mtaout27.012.net.il> for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:24:36 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NWP005H2U106Z80@mtaout27.012.net.il>; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:24:36 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:28:59 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <8337x0y8j8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83611wy995.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:21:52 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org > > > But if none of them is preloaded, what is it that we do with dired.el > > and don't do with the other two packages? > > We load dired.el when you use `C-x d' (or `C-x 4 d' etc.). > We do not load the other two when you do that. I think we > should. We should consider them an integral part of Dired, > including for documentation purposes. I see no reason not > to. Would adding to dired.el autoload cookies for the commands and options in the other 2 packages have the same effect, as far as discoverability is concerned, as loading them? If not, what will be missing? > I don't even see any reason for the division into 3 files > at this point. The 2 additional files almost double the size of the Dired-related byte code. That's pretty significant, IMO, although not a catastrophe. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:31:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144567543827091 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:31:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 08:30:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35506 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpuDl-00072s-Da for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:30:37 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:40369) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpuDj-00072j-K8 for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:30:36 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9O8UWZF011864 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:30:33 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9O8UWiR005080 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:30:32 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9O8UWOj032354; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:30:32 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <779ec8c7-4899-437f-8c71-d3970975ee65@default> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:30:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <<875f037b-3321-42b7-9128-bb4dd2bd1f7f@default>> <<834mhgy8pv.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<834mhgy8pv.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > Would you like to propose documentation patches for the Dired stuff > you think is important, but is missing from the manual? TIA. No, sorry. What would presumably be easy to do would be to load all of the Dired files together. I think that would be an easy way to help understanding, discovery, and visibility. More doc could be helpful too, but it is less important than loading the files automatically (upon using `C-x d'), and it requires more work (by someone). From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:35:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144567566527424 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:35:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 08:34:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35510 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpuHQ-00078G-Js for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:34:24 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:43391) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpuH7-00077n-1T for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:34:23 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9O8Y4ut017703 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:34:04 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9O8Y2vr005824 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:34:03 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9O8Y2A7000748; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:34:02 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:34:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <> <<83611wy995.fsf@gnu.org>> <> <<8337x0y8j8.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<8337x0y8j8.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > > But if none of them is preloaded, what is it that we do with dired.el > > > and don't do with the other two packages? > > > > We load dired.el when you use `C-x d' (or `C-x 4 d' etc.). > > We do not load the other two when you do that. I think we > > should. We should consider them an integral part of Dired, > > including for documentation purposes. I see no reason not > > to. >=20 > Would adding to dired.el autoload cookies for the commands and options > in the other 2 packages have the same effect, as far as > discoverability is concerned, as loading them? If not, what will be > missing? If I understand you correctly, no. The point is to make their commands and menu items apparent from the outset in Dired. IIUYC, what you describe would have Dired start without them, and only if someone used one of their commands would they be loaded. That doesn't help discovery of what they have to offer. > > I don't even see any reason for the division into 3 files > > at this point. >=20 > The 2 additional files almost double the size of the Dired-related > byte code. That's pretty significant, IMO, although not a > catastrophe. Yes. I think that people who use Dired would be willing to pay that price (if they knew about the features). And people who do not use Dired would not pay any Dired price. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:52:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144567666628847 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 08:52:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 08:51:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35514 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpuXa-0007VC-7O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:51:06 -0400 Received: from mtaout25.012.net.il ([80.179.55.181]:35967) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpuXF-0007UU-L6 for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:51:04 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout25.012.net.il by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NWP00800URX3T00@mtaout25.012.net.il> for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:48:30 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NWP0044KV4UXV40@mtaout25.012.net.il>; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:48:30 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:50:50 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <831tcky7it.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83611wy995.fsf@gnu.org> <8337x0y8j8.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:34:01 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > > But if none of them is preloaded, what is it that we do with dired.el > > > > and don't do with the other two packages? > > > > > > We load dired.el when you use `C-x d' (or `C-x 4 d' etc.). > > > We do not load the other two when you do that. I think we > > > should. We should consider them an integral part of Dired, > > > including for documentation purposes. I see no reason not > > > to. > > > > Would adding to dired.el autoload cookies for the commands and options > > in the other 2 packages have the same effect, as far as > > discoverability is concerned, as loading them? If not, what will be > > missing? > > If I understand you correctly, no. The point is to make > their commands and menu items apparent from the outset in > Dired. IIUYC, what you describe would have Dired start > without them, and only if someone used one of their commands > would they be loaded. That doesn't help discovery of what > they have to offer. The commands will be apparent if we use autoload cookies, if by "apparent" you mean the help command will know about them (if you mean something else, please tell). If we want them to be in the menus, we could perhaps add the missing menu items (I didn't check if that will work, though). Once again, patches are welcome. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Andreas Schwab Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 09:36:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Roland Winkler , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.1445679348682 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 09:36:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 09:35:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35580 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpvEq-0000Aw-GY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 05:35:48 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]:50392) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZpvEW-0000AV-Iz for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 05:35:47 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3njcjW2nH2z3hj1W; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:35:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.68]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3njcjW1CBLzvkjm; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:35:27 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.68]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KkXxzfKH47fh; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:35:26 +0200 (CEST) X-Auth-Info: feQHXlLVNZnVspS1JAgiK8ygqLGYQ5JYB8vf/V04mr4mgymzqgFN/4ZTv7KfA0+A Received: from linux.local (ppp-93-104-95-139.dynamic.mnet-online.de [93.104.95.139]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:35:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: by linux.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8B79A1E5300; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:35:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Yow: I smell like a wet reducing clinic on Columbus Day! Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:35:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 24 Oct 2015 01:04:06 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Drew Adams writes: > (FWIW, if you want to remove all marks you can use `C-x C-v', M-DEL Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:07:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Cc: winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144570276321483 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:07:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 16:06:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37018 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq1KV-0005aQ-0P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 12:06:03 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:17200) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq1KT-0005Zt-92 for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 12:06:01 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9OG5xuD003552 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:05:59 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9OG5vIF001181 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:05:59 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9OG5vLf027435; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:05:57 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <445d63c1-b9f9-4c48-90dd-0cc9303437b1@default> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 09:05:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <> <<83611wy995.fsf@gnu.org>> <> <<8337x0y8j8.fsf@gnu.org>> <> <<831tcky7it.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<831tcky7it.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > > Would adding to dired.el autoload cookies for the commands and option= s > > > in the other 2 packages have the same effect, as far as > > > discoverability is concerned, as loading them? If not, what will be > > > missing? > > > > If I understand you correctly, no. The point is to make > > their commands and menu items apparent from the outset in > > Dired. IIUYC, what you describe would have Dired start > > without them, and only if someone used one of their commands > > would they be loaded. That doesn't help discovery of what > > they have to offer. >=20 > The commands will be apparent if we use autoload cookies, if by > "apparent" you mean the help command will know about them (if you mean > something else, please tell). If we want them to be in the menus, we > could perhaps add the missing menu items (I didn't check if that will > work, though). By "apparent" I mean (and I think I said so) not only that help commands know about these features (keys, commands), but that their submenus and their menu items are also available in Dired from the outset. But yes, I almost mentioned, along the lines of what you are suggesting, that if you prefer to do all of the following, instead of simply loading all dired*.el files together, then that would be fine too: 1. Add all of the menu stuff to dired.el (or use some equivalent way to include them from the outset). 2. Ensure that :keys is used for them (or some equivalent), so that the associated keys are mentioned in the menus. 3. Autoload all of the commands. A third possibility is to merge all of the other two files into dired.el. Both of these two possibilities are a lot more work than just ensuring that when dired.el is loaded (however it might be) the other two are loaded immediately also. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:07:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Andreas Schwab Cc: Roland Winkler , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144570278121533 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:07:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 16:06:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37020 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq1Kn-0005bC-GY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 12:06:21 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:17199) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq1KT-0005Zs-94 for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 12:06:19 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9OG5x2B003553 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:05:59 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9OG5tUG008426 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:05:55 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9OG5teg021984; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:05:55 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 09:05:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > (FWIW, if you want to remove all marks you can use `C-x C-v', >=20 > M-DEL Yes, I already mentioned that earlier. Specifically `C-u M-DEL', if you want to remove all marks of any kind. And that is exactly what I do, FWIW, if I no longer want to see `C' marks or similar. I mentioned `C-x C-v' in the context of mentioning `g' (and I pointed out the differences). From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Andreas Schwab Cc: Roland Winkler , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144570326922885 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:15:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 16:14:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37025 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq1Se-0005x2-Ee for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 12:14:28 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:18448) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq1Sc-0005wt-O3 for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 12:14:27 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9OGEP0n009460 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:14:25 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9OGEOYc020915 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:14:24 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9OGENvT014979; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:14:23 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <8676ae86-cbf1-4372-9f70-8d6c6a89aad0@default> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 09:14:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> In-Reply-To: <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > > (FWIW, if you want to remove all marks you can use `C-x C-v', > > > > M-DEL >=20 > Yes, I already mentioned that earlier. Specifically `C-u M-DEL', > if you want to remove all marks of any kind. >=20 > And that is exactly what I do, FWIW, if I no longer want to > see `C' marks or similar. FWIW: In fact, I use this behavior so much, and I like it and the rest of the Dired model of marking and acting on files and dirs so much, that I added the same thing, including the key bindings (e.g. `C-u M-DEL') to the bookmark display list (`*Bookmark List*'), in Bookmark+. A user familiar with either Dired or Bookmark+ is thus familiar with the other from the outset (wrt marking and acting on the listed entries). From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: "Roland Winkler" Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:52:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Andreas Schwab , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.14457199125977 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:52:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 20:51:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37105 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq5n5-0001YL-NK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:51:51 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:58309) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq5mk-0001Xu-QS for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:51:49 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq5mj-0001i9-EZ for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:51:30 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:36163) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq5mj-0001hv-Ae; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:51:29 -0400 Received: from [2602:30a:2e52:d720:317d:3b04:76ec:4ee6] (port=33916 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq5mi-0004y2-Ra; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:51:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:51:25 -0500 From: "Roland Winkler" In-Reply-To: <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) On Sat Oct 24 2015 Drew Adams wrote: > > > (FWIW, if you want to remove all marks you can use `C-x C-v', > > > > M-DEL > > Yes, I already mentioned that earlier. Specifically `C-u M-DEL', > if you want to remove all marks of any kind. This thread has moved in a different direction from why I originally submitted this bug report. I know that there are various ways to get rid of the C's when copying files in dired. But nobody showed why they are useful in the first place in some common usage scenario justifying the current default. Therefore I think that the default of dired-keep-marker-copy should be changed to nil: - The C's are irritating and inconsistent: The marks `*' and `D' indicate that an action _will be_ performed on certain files. The C's indicate that an action _has been_ performed. - There is no future action associated with the C's (nor has anybody shown that this would be desirable) Roland From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Andreas Schwab Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "Roland Winkler" Cc: Drew Adams , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.14457210077659 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:11:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 21:10:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37116 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq64k-0001zS-OV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:10:07 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:46627) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq64P-0001yd-3O for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:10:04 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3njw6b3k9Tz3hjYJ; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:09:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.68]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3njw6b1ljGzvhL5; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:09:43 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.68]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S_z_ovbJQtOZ; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:09:42 +0200 (CEST) X-Auth-Info: PMa5fy70XnEoYiFtIpkLZkcSBJ7V3Uu8nIvSzcOLt4YdhYwgi1wdHD6i2LIIZiTv Received: from igel.home (ppp-93-104-95-139.dynamic.mnet-online.de [93.104.95.139]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:09:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C2AEA2C19F3; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:09:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Yow: Yow! I'm out of work...I could go into shock absorbers...or SCUBA GEAR!! Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:09:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Roland Winkler's message of "Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:51:25 -0500") Message-ID: <871tckvuqy.fsf@igel.home> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) "Roland Winkler" writes: > - There is no future action associated with the C's (nor has anybody > shown that this would be desirable) You can move among them with M-{ and M-}. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:31:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Roland Winkler Cc: Andreas Schwab , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.14457222579640 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:31:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 21:30:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37120 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq6Ov-0002VQ-AZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:30:57 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:31906) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq6Ob-0002Ux-0S for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:30:56 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9OLUZPC003238 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:30:36 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9OLUZuj012030 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:30:35 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9OLUYvr020705; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:30:34 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <33f6a584-df3d-48e1-9db1-52d6aa11e5b8@default> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 14:30:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> In-Reply-To: <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > I know that there are various ways to > get rid of the C's when copying files in dired. But nobody showed > why they are useful in the first place in some common usage scenario > justifying the current default. I did. But you apparently don't want to recognize this use as being useful. I'll repeat it, just in case you didn't hear it: To distinguish/identify the files that were copied. And to do so in a way that they can be further acted on in Dired. IOW, in a Dired-consistent way. Both parts of this are useful: (1) easily see which were copied and (2) easily act on them or on any subset of them. #2 requires #1, but #1 is useful on its own. How else could Dired distinguish the copied files? That is, what are the alternatives? We can imagine a few: 1. Highlight their lines in some way. Reasonable. And with similar behavior needs: users need a way to remove the highlighting. And some might find the higlighting annoying. But they could of course customize its face to remove its effect. 2. Use `*' instead of `C'. Confusion with other, pre-existing `*' marks - no distinction. Likewise, for `D'. 3. List the copied files only in a separate log buffer. You can probably come up with some additional ways. None of these give you the ability to do something with just those files or a subset of them. For any proposal you might make, you would need to include some way to (a) get the list of copied files, (b) perhaps selectively edit it, and then (c) act on the remaining files in that list. I.e., you need some way to let users act on any subset of those files. > Therefore=20 "Therefore"? Because no one has shown how `C' marking is useful? See above. > I think that the default of dired-keep-marker-copy should be > changed to nil: >=20 > - The C's are irritating and inconsistent: >=20 > The marks `*' and `D' indicate that an action _will be_ performed > on certain files. The C's indicate that an action _has been_ > performed. Again, `*' and `D' do _not at all_ indicate that any action _will be_ performed on the marked files. They indicate that you _can_ act on them. Nothing more than that. And `C' indicates the same thing: you can, with one command/key, change `C' to `*' or `D', putting all of those files in the same situation as your beloved (even if untrue) "_will be_ performed" situation. That's the point of `C' marking: to _indicate_ the copied files. Not marking the copied files gives you NO way to choose them for subsequent action. If they are not marked (or equivalent) then you cannot distinguish them - they do not stand out from the rest. > - There is no future action associated with the C's (nor has anybody > shown that this would be desirable) On the contrary. There are a great many future actions that you can perform on the files marked with `C' (by changing `C' to `*' or `D'). But you certainly cannot do anything to that set of files (or to a subset) if you cannot distinguish it. Not identifying the copied files apparently irritates you less, but it does not help anyone do anything with them. It is _not_ that it would always be desirable to do something additional with all of the files marked `C' (see your claim that no one has shown that that is desirable). That's part of the point: no such hard-coded behavior is appropriate. What is appropriate is to _be able_ to perform _any_ Dired action on _any_ of those files (and not only on all of them). Prerequisites for this ability are (1) being able to distinguish the copied files and (2) being able to choose which of them, if any, to act on in some other way. It sounds to me like you should just customize `dired-keep-marker-copy' to nil for yourself. I see no good argument for changing the default value. Your only reason to use `nil' is a personal one: you are irritated by the marks. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:35:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Andreas Schwab , Roland Winkler Cc: 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.14457224599951 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:35:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 21:34:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37126 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq6SB-0002aR-2h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:34:19 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:19430) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq6S9-0002aK-LO for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:34:18 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9OLYFoq006212 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:34:16 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9OLYFSa018566 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:34:15 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9OLYFRd001257; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 21:34:15 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 14:34:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <871tckvuqy.fsf@igel.home> In-Reply-To: <871tckvuqy.fsf@igel.home> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > - There is no future action associated with the C's (nor has anybody > > shown that this would be desirable) >=20 > You can move among them with M-{ and M-}. You can, but that action is not specific to `C' marks. You can of course move among only the `C'-marked files using, say, `C-M-s ^C'. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Andreas Schwab Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 22:01:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Roland Winkler , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144572404612380 (code B ref 21746); Sat, 24 Oct 2015 22:01:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Oct 2015 22:00:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37163 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq6rl-0003Db-QV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 18:00:46 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:43614) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq6rj-0003DT-V1 for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 18:00:44 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3njxFQ5QTfz3hkbf; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:00:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.68]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3njxFQ2TGDzvhLL; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:00:42 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.68]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oCIN6unxVjjK; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:00:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Auth-Info: xr0lc44/eQI8h3eB9g5/2hZXmJPKeWbHbxu89rUQmXT5lPZoBDEHRgijjw560fkV Received: from igel.home (ppp-93-104-95-139.dynamic.mnet-online.de [93.104.95.139]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:00:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C86402C38E9; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:00:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <871tckvuqy.fsf@igel.home> X-Yow: Now I'm being INVOLUNTARILY shuffled closer to the CLAM DIP with the BROKEN PLASTIC FORKS in it!! Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:00:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 24 Oct 2015 14:34:14 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87wpucudtj.fsf@igel.home> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Drew Adams writes: >> > - There is no future action associated with the C's (nor has anybody >> > shown that this would be desirable) >> >> You can move among them with M-{ and M-}. > > You can, but that action is not specific to `C' marks. Like a lot of other things you can do with them. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:17:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Andreas Schwab , Roland Winkler , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144573218025140 (code B ref 21746); Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:17:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2015 00:16:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37179 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq8yx-0006XO-Oy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:16:20 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:61651) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zq8yd-0006WN-DI for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:16:18 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([90.186.1.67]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LxwiW-1abf0d3Caa-015Kd2; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 02:15:52 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <33f6a584-df3d-48e1-9db1-52d6aa11e5b8@default> Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 02:15:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: <33f6a584-df3d-48e1-9db1-52d6aa11e5b8@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 24 Oct 2015 14:30:34 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87d1w3951m.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:/EkXQDbW91AP6Hyh2E5APROQk2lV6+3ClpsVYycXqeJpe7+xbsd PpquNUB7b0/PhQrnlPZpu6TQ6O3xUaCAk9X2SJdL4Bexn4RCw0H5TxmmO+xZb8kChO+xK1u FooWJbTMVAFWuysIGESay0bsP/u2c+jMQtOJcfXGqyeDoO5wyA8S2PJeFGYXZ22IYCA/MM4 tlH75XC+liZNbOGgDtlWw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:glFCcuKXQqQ=:+/wc5gPaqjQxsf5QWs1IDS ROgGC1D4iOXM0Vd1tPJPgzbSAxJMWRMSg15BJlWWbdYhJsgwinGM+lLG3PIhBxLjyoHeYxCik GxVEPO2GMT8VOToSyRWQrjTgHlwdc2++vyszGxXtRPVtsdm8jFn6taGSwlGZZqr/h2mXSy4a7 bWOgs0fI5+RaWDGt3zKjhrH7ErWlMOcgWoZtfAXdQyXGc8tRHyHbue259nK6VRWgyb/hPwrv1 Soo7IVt/h2XKnF+gCAFps8KUX3JzusIBB4WgItDLxBElrUdmfEg6xhleMxS2iLhF4LLlRq82F mFfo4hLWCtPdskUcNpFRqOCdToMpF4DK3vx4kr3WBrKLgGIWXmpLGpJcudfOJXpYa/kSMCwu8 Eg64Jwe9QfXDgXCi05iYi5GXpM17v6s80qyxWEkIw70dvfuG+dXZjR72fnMh5W9Yf6jJjAKLt A9R2MRVzonKM5hGme7dHYfZie6tV2D0WVfSi6WNa6LJv9qHFHe4Uu7T6oKaiXBGlu9L9EQ7T5 cXtkAWuPwFqGZUJCys8e2CCDM9H861+vFC5g5ORS8GNxCVR4Hr65Jo52T4slPUTD/6HpoXiBH 9neGHiYFDMpASamoWt3B8CEsTGwo7plQRlQzAM4w6ZkmNUDrNFcPw72sjUE5yphYtYJe62cMm OxID4kRjvKENeG2dP8R+hylRE/lyK8FoVtWSCjAt6k7CuSpMCATy0pTl7zLnDh59cK2p0juxR 609EX9GEPFtjdeZUg+vLI5pXxG9l4RubzX5klGGohOhoHJ989t8fkPlmbbQS2F5cbddxSVNPE Rdfc1ef X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Drew Adams writes: > On the contrary. There are a great many future actions that you can > perform on the files marked with `C' (by changing `C' to `*' or `D'). I totally agree that the marks are useful. OTOH, I think they confuse nearly everyone when first using dired. The intention should be spoken out in the docs if this isn't the case (didn't check), but I guess we all agree about that anyway. And AFAICT nil is not a valid value for `dired-keep-marker-copy', but a space character should "work". Michael. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: "Roland Winkler" Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 04:02:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Andreas Schwab , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144574567812957 (code B ref 21746); Sun, 25 Oct 2015 04:02:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2015 04:01:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37249 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqCUg-0003Mu-88 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:01:18 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:47480) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqCUe-0003Mn-S9 for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:01:17 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqCUd-0001MO-R5 for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:01:16 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:41603) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqCUd-0001MH-OE; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:01:15 -0400 Received: from [2602:30a:2e52:d720:317d:3b04:76ec:4ee6] (port=34077 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqCUd-0007Nz-20; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 00:01:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <21512.40131.587409.22060@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:01:12 -0500 From: "Roland Winkler" In-Reply-To: <33f6a584-df3d-48e1-9db1-52d6aa11e5b8@default> References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <33f6a584-df3d-48e1-9db1-52d6aa11e5b8@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) On Sat Oct 24 2015 Drew Adams wrote: > I did. But you apparently don't want to recognize this use as > being useful. I'll repeat it, just in case you didn't hear it: > > To distinguish/identify the files that were copied. And to do > so in a way that they can be further acted on in Dired. IOW, > in a Dired-consistent way. Both parts of this are useful: > (1) easily see which were copied and (2) easily act on them > or on any subset of them. #2 requires #1, but #1 is useful > on its own. > > How else could Dired distinguish the copied files? It shouldn't. Marks are for new actions in the future, not for old ones from the past. If you nonetheless like inconsistent behavior, don't make it the default. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 05:14:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Roland Winkler Cc: Andreas Schwab , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144575000119370 (code B ref 21746); Sun, 25 Oct 2015 05:14:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2015 05:13:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37302 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqDcP-00052H-5t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 01:13:21 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:18606) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqDc4-00051Q-Pv for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 01:13:19 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9P5Cva8012341 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 25 Oct 2015 05:12:57 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9P5CunY000671 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Oct 2015 05:12:56 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9P5Cu7N031256; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 05:12:56 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <20c29279-9f56-4832-925b-54f1b159dc8b@default> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 22:12:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <33f6a584-df3d-48e1-9db1-52d6aa11e5b8@default> <21512.40131.587409.22060@gargle.gargle.HOWL> In-Reply-To: <21512.40131.587409.22060@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > To distinguish/identify the files that were copied. And to do > > so in a way that they can be further acted on in Dired. IOW, > > in a Dired-consistent way. Both parts of this are useful: > > (1) easily see which were copied and (2) easily act on them > > or on any subset of them. #2 requires #1, but #1 is useful > > on its own. > > > > How else could Dired distinguish the copied files? >=20 > It shouldn't. Marks are for new actions in the future, not > for old ones from the past. Apparently whoever designed Dired 30-40 years ago didn't agree. But that's beside the point (your point, at least). _You_ don't think marks should be used for this - fine. Or rather, you don't think they should be used for this by _default_. That's it, right? You at least don't begrudge users the ability to choose for themselves, do you? You wouldn't suggest we take away options `dired-keep-marker-copy', `dired-keep-marker-hardlink',=20 `dired-keep-marker-relsymlink', `dired-keep-marker-rename', and `dired-keep-marker-symlink', would you? If you would, i.e., even if you don't want Emacs to ever use marks for such confirmation/indication, surely you can imagine that it can make sense to _somehow_ confirm which files were successfully copied (or hardlinked or symlinked or relsymlinked or renamed). What other way would you prefer to do that? But if you wouldn't, and you just want to change the default behavior, then I'd suggest that you come up with a good reason for doing so. Something more than the fact that such marks "irritate" you. > If you nonetheless like inconsistent behavior, don't make it the > default. Blah. Just because _you_ never made use of such marks, that does not mean they are not useful or their use is "inconsistent". Far from it. They have been used consistently for decades, throughout Dired - witness the 5 options I just mentioned. This use of marks conflicts with your limited notion of what Dired marks are for. OK. But you really have nothing useful to say about _this_ particular use of marks, because you have never taken advantage of it. It's certainly your right to go on ignoring this feature, and if you don't want to be "irritated" by such marks, customize the relevant options to remove them. Easy. End of story. Or else come up with a good reason why your personal preference should be foisted on everyone as a new default behavior, reversing longstanding practice. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Andreas Schwab Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 12:56:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "Roland Winkler" Cc: Drew Adams , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.14457777503969 (code B ref 21746); Sun, 25 Oct 2015 12:56:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2015 12:55:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37541 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqKpx-00011w-PN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 08:55:50 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]:38855) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqKpc-00011T-HO for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 08:55:47 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3nkK5p6jz7z3hjFB; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:55:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.68]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3nkK5p4KDrzvjDD; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:55:26 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.68]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CaomrO_ghqNd; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:55:25 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: hn7A1XgbTfRGp1NfMqBrViB0IW5eDZXBSuiTRC0ZQ1uPhxAlaYtXlEZgYTe8Zk3w Received: from igel.home (ppp-93-104-63-68.dynamic.mnet-online.de [93.104.63.68]) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:55:25 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 10BCE2C3E05; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:55:25 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <33f6a584-df3d-48e1-9db1-52d6aa11e5b8@default> <21512.40131.587409.22060@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Yow: I will establish the first SHOPPING MALL in NUTLEY, New Jersey... Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:55:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: <21512.40131.587409.22060@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Roland Winkler's message of "Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:01:12 -0500") Message-ID: <87vb9vnm4i.fsf@igel.home> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) "Roland Winkler" writes: > Marks are for new actions in the future, Exactly. That's why they are there. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 17:41:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: schwab@linux-m68k.org, winkler@gnu.org, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.1445794835383 (code B ref 21746); Sun, 25 Oct 2015 17:41:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2015 17:40:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38155 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqPHX-000066-2e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:40:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:51018) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqPHD-00005e-0F for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:40:33 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqPHB-0007G1-IT for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:40:14 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51381) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqPH7-0007EK-0L; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:40:09 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqPH6-0007xh-8t; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:40:08 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-reply-to: <20c29279-9f56-4832-925b-54f1b159dc8b@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sat, 24 Oct 2015 22:12:55 -0700 (PDT)) References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <33f6a584-df3d-48e1-9db1-52d6aa11e5b8@default> <21512.40131.587409.22060@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20c29279-9f56-4832-925b-54f1b159dc8b@default> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 13:40:08 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] The reason I make Dired commands put marks on newly created file names is so that you can use those marks to choose those files for another operation. Of course, people only occasionally want to do that. When you don't want to do another operation on those files, you can simply ignore the marks, or unmark the files. It seems to be a useful benefit in a fraction of cases, and no loss in the rest. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 18:41:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Roland Winkler Cc: schwab@linux-m68k.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.14457984535805 (code B ref 21746); Sun, 25 Oct 2015 18:41:03 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Oct 2015 18:40:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38181 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqQDs-0001VZ-J3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 14:40:52 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:47681) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZqQDq-0001VQ-S3 for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 14:40:51 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NWS00700H04NQ00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:40:44 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NWS0078GH7UL570@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:40:44 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:40:53 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <21512.40131.587409.22060@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83si4ydc5m.fsf@gnu.org> References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <33f6a584-df3d-48e1-9db1-52d6aa11e5b8@default> <21512.40131.587409.22060@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 23:01:12 -0500 > From: "Roland Winkler" > Cc: Andreas Schwab , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org > > > How else could Dired distinguish the copied files? > > It shouldn't. Marks are for new actions in the future, not for old > ones from the past. > > If you nonetheless like inconsistent behavior, don't make it the > default. We are arguing here about the default value of a defcustom. Moreover, this value was introduced 23 years ago, never changed since then, and I don't remember any complaints about that default (but if you find any, please point to them). So it doesn't sound wise to me to change that default based on the fact that you, Roland, dislike it. You can always customize this variable (and other similar dired-keep-marker-* options) to you heart's content, right? OTOH, changing this long-standing default would be an incompatible change, something that we only do when the community as a whole requests. Which is not the case here, I think. Thus, I think we should document this subtlety, both in the doc strings of the corresponding dired-do-* commands and in the user manual, and otherwise leave the existing default alone. Patches for the documentation are welcome. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Juri Linkov Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:16:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Andreas Schwab , Roland Winkler , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.14460777058483 (code B ref 21746); Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:16:02 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Oct 2015 00:15:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43003 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zrarw-0002Ck-HT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 20:15:04 -0400 Received: from sub3.mail.dreamhost.com ([69.163.253.7]:59559 helo=homiemail-a23.g.dreamhost.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zrars-0002C0-IH for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 20:15:01 -0400 Received: from homiemail-a23.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a23.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7690D4B006D; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 17:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.linkov.net (m213-100-246-8.cust.tele2.ee [213.100.246.8]) (Authenticated sender: jurta@jurta.org) by homiemail-a23.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 19E654B0062; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 17:14:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov Organization: LINKOV.NET References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 02:14:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 24 Oct 2015 09:05:53 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87egge7cpx.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) > Yes, I already mentioned that earlier. Specifically `C-u M-DEL', > if you want to remove all marks of any kind. Have you really tried `C-u M-DEL'? I see this error: dired-unmark-all-files: Symbol=E2=80=99s value as variable is void: query A bug? From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:39:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Juri Linkov Cc: Andreas Schwab , Roland Winkler , Drew Adams , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144607909910639 (code B ref 21746); Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:39:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Oct 2015 00:38:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43013 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZrbER-0002lX-8p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 20:38:19 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:57205) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZrbE7-0002kr-3m for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 20:38:17 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([90.186.3.138]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb004) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Ly7vR-1aW4xq3LNd-015WPu; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 01:37:48 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <87egge7cpx.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 01:37:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87egge7cpx.fsf@mail.linkov.net> (Juri Linkov's message of "Thu, 29 Oct 2015 02:14:18 +0200") Message-ID: <871tce4ihz.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:Fv2oM/w0WGIN5rz2Jn4bsetZvCGLwcgNYmuEmwa84bNtuKCWIkB cAXxWtNxUJlZkxmE4jAEYpx8lp9eUpkoEBuDr7H4ah4kj0GVNeBTdNim57hBdGbtQ4ZUwgN YGeqFLUd42DvKiR4++ue6gp+iMnf3P2kNWs9y+nrupRY3ag7x5nlLJ6tvrNvSO2abgmMQLf V61wLxrgMzPYz51gW66sQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:wP7W/aZvNeI=:Zx/uqTO3QgOZlAHJYtRAsT GZfW/e4HppEH0SJI6KcMmCv2f1fZ3d8kpmghH6mqOtJA6kk/bJYpgHwEUvK1zPYVhoGGo1nPg aM91rhgYo5bUSV1KKaHUAmAMSNi20Z8oGVYOVyGWUOIhPBuSIX+fuVEBKGTfOWcVf+vBbfkq2 dvVEMUggHTAiADntUU0thBG8BGuAQ06/8JC+NVzA/qtYGTu+flENalQAOpuKnCxedINuyQx5S ShnNNShWx+9WZQ2Dv6lKk2m8nzy/Y+GZju65/pQtR/sHbmBkOVMLQn4gq6QVDaoCMoJRFkULx 0aiHT7qZ4ooBoDKbvCQhyrF4A5YHToJsDljniIhbPhPxRk5cLxrApawjF4SZo84iyhYrFMBs6 BB6FGzwq33TQTYeuavsGFa3fHTzDRXDb25Uu2N6t+VrwN5iqvwn77whtXS8wmKb2f7Zh68bFo 7A6kR2DpB1o35ijz/mRWEfmo3ZgcZkEyJxwLycKwuT44zo0tFBgwXv7+lPAxA8Nvmk8dtx5S5 EC0NfenhpwrNSiwsBKAsE21RhCx+DaR4Q9BJA1f7e+kzgJXuM54vmEc7KIdGnJe8E/AYzYSjg f5SVl70mfv8aOutTwyofqPXW8v6/qTIrRg6QOtMG2WiqmHIM15OYIpFBMX9kbJFFapbPwJiJu yoMaB0j4xwqoqLHkYfrEksmhzBq3crHXtX1gZNE5XPKsCfzwWIo8X/WBb9H9ZGPF3QcKMCIal p47hztgh5LRdroNEUwWHQx2pY2noKI5K7sVWarZ/4p2W1DF8lo6m08fYxYcFTxe2m9PT+vzOv qCIhLlb X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Juri Linkov writes: > dired-unmark-all-files: Symbol=E2=80=99s value as variable is void: query Indeed. And in some cases, I don't even get a minibuffer prompt but only C-u M-DEL key feedback in the echo area (though typing RET works in the sense that I still get the above error). Michael. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:54:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Juri Linkov Cc: Andreas Schwab , Roland Winkler , 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.144608002711969 (code B ref 21746); Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:54:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Oct 2015 00:53:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43028 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZrbTP-00036z-Ab for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 20:53:47 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:27777) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZrbT4-00036W-Vl for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 28 Oct 2015 20:53:45 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9T0rPSk017530 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:53:25 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9T0rPRO002561 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:53:25 GMT Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9T0rPwA005240; Thu, 29 Oct 2015 00:53:25 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <273f75d5-045c-417f-ace5-73f3be3837ee@default> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 17:53:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <87egge7cpx.fsf@mail.linkov.net> In-Reply-To: <87egge7cpx.fsf@mail.linkov.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > Yes, I already mentioned that earlier. Specifically `C-u M-DEL', > > if you want to remove all marks of any kind. >=20 > Have you really tried `C-u M-DEL'? I'm sorry. I meant `M-DEL RET'. It's automatic for my fingers, but not for my brain. > I see this error: > dired-unmark-all-files: Symbol=E2=80=99s value as variable is void: query > A bug? Yes, I see the same as you. Indeed, it seems to be a bug. As Michael indicated, I get no prompt to enter the mark character, and when I nevertheless do so (e.g. I hit `*'), I get the error you cited. Please file a separate bug for that. It is unrelated to this thread. Sorry I mistyped the key sequence for removing all marks (which is `M-DEL RET'). But glad it led you your finding this bug. From unknown Sun Aug 17 01:00:21 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21746: 24.5; purpose of dired-keep-marker-copy? Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:51:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21746 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: schwab@linux-m68k.org, Roland Winkler , drew.adams@oracle.com, 21746@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21746-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21746.165114665816102 (code B ref 21746); Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:51:01 +0000 Received: (at 21746) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2022 11:50:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45647 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nk2fi-0004Be-GM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:50:58 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:53872) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nk2fh-0004BQ-8w for 21746@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:50:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=z6KaOlXbg0ypT5NDRQKTAJNxLbPm4zc+bb7YSYtPT/4=; b=qHLfyZhqVLcE8HkQpDmIHNZI66 05eJhkZ3/PxJkyfxfEfY1crtDrPx4rW8PQRAbU+ZuZZA+whaWt45flcP5d4QClRWmQI3OZUw/BIBD HxdQFuP9Id+tbPhGoe4YBGZRVwV60qt7BX06Dk9A7k+OMc9n8c//GURznhbyLZqF+6eU=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nk2fW-0000MK-14; Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:50:48 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <36360.86247.586145.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <69182d70-1f68-4105-9f24-7bbef43e7ecb@default> <40607.80402.459249.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <987d58d9-30d3-4067-a0ae-7a7722a3f2fb@default> <56535.83174.772198.22058@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <32c7e678-352f-4e5d-86cf-768a9c482386@default> <61261.98098.661987.22059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <33f6a584-df3d-48e1-9db1-52d6aa11e5b8@default> <21512.40131.587409.22060@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <83si4ydc5m.fsf@gnu.org> X-Now-Playing: CPU's _This Is Fascism (1)_: "This Is Fascism (From The C.P.U. Mix)" Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:50:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83si4ydc5m.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:40:53 +0200") Message-ID: <87levpl94a.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: > Thus, I think we should document this subtlety, both in the doc > strings of the corresponding dired-do-* commands and in the user > manual, and otherwise leave the existing default alone. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Thus, I think we should document this subtlety, both in the doc > strings of the corresponding dired-do-* commands and in the user > manual, and otherwise leave the existing default alone. I've now done this in Emacs 29, and am closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 28 07:51:02 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2022 11:51:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45651 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nk2fm-0004CJ-N0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:51:02 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:53886) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nk2fj-0004BU-Gz for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2022 07:50:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=uc64Ac96F70qxdp7FRMDyym22P/7YdtArO2oUf/NzFE=; b=Gk7u/mO3kanJq9uWWOrIM4FlZN LvgIw6GL6NoPV3sfAfFJYg/DYSEYrc11Jhiz4AejlNNZmyMt/PSKGspfQy+lTpiGpd+YlFOt9ndmC qd9NEseyuYwj5kte0xvP9MVNaKDn7JENeaxIhm9ni3C7RIt9mCCPbeLPHyyspTQ3Wego=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nk2fb-0000MP-RO for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:50:53 +0200 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 13:50:51 +0200 Message-Id: <87k0b9l944.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #21746 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 21746 29.1 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 21746 29.1 quit