From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable' Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:51:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.14450322155916 (code B ref -1); Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:51:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Oct 2015 21:50:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53691 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZnCtC-0001XM-Da for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:50:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:33441) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZnCtB-0001XG-0E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:50:13 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZnCtA-00022S-04 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:50:12 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:56017) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZnCt9-00022J-Ti for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:50:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43419) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZnCt9-0006cI-1d for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:50:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZnCt5-0001wo-Rn for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:50:10 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:30374) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZnCt5-0001ve-LH for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:50:07 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9GLo6GN014558 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:50:06 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9GLo6EW017724 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:50:06 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9GLo56b006059 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 21:50:06 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) Please (case by case) change examples that use `setq' to set an option value, so that they instead use one of the Customize functions (`customize-set-variable', `custom-set-variables', etc.). Using `setq' in an init file to set option values is error prone. It is not a good habit to develop, because (1) there are some options whose `defcustom's use `:set', `:initialize' etc. (and `setq' ignores such), and (2) `setq' does no type checking. There are currently no occurrences of `customize-set-variable' or `custom-set-variables' in the Emacs manual. There are lots of uses of `setq' in the Emacs manual. Yet many (most?) of them are for setting user-option values. No distinction is made between setting options and other variables (`defvar's). Sure, many `defcustom's have a simple `:type' and no `:set' or `:initialize' etc., so in practice it often does not really matter whether you use `setq' or one of the Customize functions to set the value. Still, the manual should set a good example, and it is better to not get in the habit of assuming that `setq' is sufficient to properly set a user option. I've see questions about this from users many times. (Most often it is a problem with type and not with setter or initializer functions.) It is often not obvious (how should it be) to users what is wrong when they get into trouble by using `setq'. In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2015-10-06 Bzr revision: a4a98a1b2568793ead43e824ecf227768759df12 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/Devel/emacs/snapshot/trunk --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3' LDFLAGS=3D-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib 'CPPFLAGS=3D-DGC_MCHECK=3D1 -Ic:/Devel/emacs/include'' From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable' Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 23:58:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.144503986116902 (code B ref 21695); Fri, 16 Oct 2015 23:58:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Oct 2015 23:57:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53717 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZnEsW-0004OY-M8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 19:57:41 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:37457) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZnEsV-0004OP-C6 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 19:57:39 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t9GNvcSb019727 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for <21695@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 23:57:38 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9GNvcem004650 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <21695@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 23:57:38 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t9GNvbwp025521 for <21695@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 23:57:38 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 16:57:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> In-Reply-To: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) The same is apparently true for the manual "An Introduction to Programming in Emacs Lisp" (which is a fine intro to learning Elisp). What's more, it even states: "The 'custom-set-variables' function works somewhat differently than a 'setq'. While I have never learned the differences, I modify the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 'custom-set-variables' expressions in my '.emacs' file by hand: I make the changes in what appears to me to be a reasonable manner and have not had any problems. Others prefer to use the Customization command and let Emacs do the work for them." It might have been OK to say that when it was first written, but by now the manual should understand the differences, and even point them out. Especially in that section, which is about `defcustom'. The node says: "Although you can use 'defvar' or 'setq' for variables that users set, the 'defcustom' macro is designed for the job." Part of its design for that job is handling `:type', `:set' `:initialize', et.c, precisely what makes options different from ordinary variables and thus `custom-set-variables' different from `setq'. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable' Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 22:31:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.162206823532720 (code B ref 21695); Wed, 26 May 2021 22:31:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2021 22:30:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50153 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lm22t-0008VQ-I1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 May 2021 18:30:35 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:34942) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lm22q-0008N3-D3 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 May 2021 18:30:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=0+L557yZnlOglAo2myDMpARqN4PR2aF7K7pxDAKxI70=; b=a2nTgo+5tQMNDKDpI/tfqUBC1G R2CyhWa4vNZxOYR3w4Z5/PnuJ0Ieoo7ZXIqcARsyg5F2cxYMWVaJw3MZVpPqQYH8pHhCexkhhCKLP AdtD/jSFfBrnciyq7McBDldELvbqSDp9YgPbkPzqebJAKAsp9wfEURMbLkFOeVKYvqto=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lm22i-0003xM-78; Thu, 27 May 2021 00:30:26 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> X-Now-Playing: Tuxedomoon's _Live At The Palms (1978)_: "Mein Auto" Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 00:30:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 16 Oct 2015 14:50:04 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <8735u99lhc.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Drew Adams writes: > Please (case by case) change examples that use `setq' to set an option > value, so that they instead use one of the Customize functions > (`customize-set-variable', `custom-set-variables', etc.). Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: > Please (case by case) change examples that use `setq' to set an option > value, so that they instead use one of the Customize functions > (`customize-set-variable', `custom-set-variables', etc.). No, using setq for user options is fine. Closing. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 26 18:30:41 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2021 22:30:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50156 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lm22y-00009x-O8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 May 2021 18:30:40 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:34956) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lm22u-0008R0-Ff for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 May 2021 18:30:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6mNxfHSK6mhY3fAzQTLIw5FCf9TXAYb9dfFvUrkbSHw=; b=dgnCXUBYagPzixHKeTaYvxdbNP ZH2J/HFzFqx8AvyW7yrETgpM8dKZmao4g/Fitw8Gi9tQ4S0jN7onXHA5igHIHPnWF8/CmGXVeCAca 5E4AuyI7yZJk//0gnTRQSIDY10/R3+4UkH5VeNP6SF1bJvXUJdXMnK4xZea0k/P1skyA=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lm22n-0003xU-0P for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 May 2021 00:30:30 +0200 Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 00:30:28 +0200 Message-Id: <871r9t9lh7.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #21695 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. 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Sun, 29 Aug 2021 19:05:17 +0000 From: Drew Adams Thread-Topic: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable' Thread-Index: AdedCKrY3kkIy+2pRZSVS3g9E7QswA== Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 19:05:17 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: debbugs.gnu.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; debbugs.gnu.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: fac8ac0e-7c3d-4fbd-e021-08d96b1ff0a2 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5648: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:36:44 +0000 From: Drew Adams Thread-Topic: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable' Thread-Index: AdedCKrY3kkIy+2pRZSVS3g9E7QswAAHJFzg Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:36:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: oracle.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;oracle.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 784dbfcd-5997-4a5a-9bdf-08d96b3d7a6d x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR10MB4387: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: ccHicEszheyJej49TXQJgAwHMN07eNfCZ0V7BFQOxNe2ieaaJy9IWk3MmTHTb2VbQ9/z0Kn637+iJiKRctD7Cyyw9q8lgwAZQf2QAJ5VzawoZ56TbQwyhSgftsII4LgFe9hFAsyPXKJDhD4fYEvRqHAkSd8inIZpOzs6L4IUzV8nBQJguG5cMYSfm5+tt6El5/qrBGtLye3v5mt23DJ3i64U582D0pEr+P0XXRhtLQIHyVzZv9s8Y8xkvtF9UGu7PFh1TtdTkvyRjZDV9WxDKheb6hk1dN2dDZD4zWdhw9FNE4KSC3/mcaZypv1GDkJ8gZhY/rQI/ZJN5elncD6CBDFG1CXESWOWrw5xzbuTf7Pa0oDuiwxe8dAW9i+UW9f/uoE20kuP2mrvzLmdpNh/Yvo36NCzLdwBYHCEq4Yq2snawe8wqFBnfXnRiXPLN0z19iPFYqDOl7UXww8nT2R57YdiAFNoSbbzaodWVpelSHNOPmLtOdPvCrf3VKQHSMtyMJX5pu2LJl3EksHr1n6sKfC5sR30l8D3Z/zWkt3VLCJSAt+GIHxWuIwrQTJS49gqwYJ94uygKonA+wMgEpRFke4cuE6G3rZ5QoLF6+C3ZDZdYc6TH231CjgtXGk3rchcK+RJ8XFOTNecS11wyn9whnB8L2wypsM+jvjeKZ8Gt85Q3MEMr+m/1LMOEvtYRjfUwRdGsFmTJe4OE0h3AznR/5p2reQIR5JAn7GI+MrlidY= x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:52:13 +0000 From: Drew Adams Thread-Topic: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable' Thread-Index: AdedCKrY3kkIy+2pRZSVS3g9E7QswAAHJFzgAACyaLA= Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:52:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: debbugs.gnu.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; debbugs.gnu.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7ba2d04c-7d40-4b6e-bae8-08d96b3fa499 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR10MB2966: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7219; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:57:05 +0000 From: Drew Adams Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#50248: [DOC] Setting User Options in Init File Thread-Index: AQHXnQzXNemtfaGuUkec7R7RLAwILauLBT5A Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:57:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87o89gbwrr.fsf@laposte.net> <874kb8f3lh.fsf@gnus.org> In-Reply-To: <874kb8f3lh.fsf@gnus.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gnus.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gnus.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7318cb40-1a33-4771-135a-08d96b405242 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB4653: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7318cb40-1a33-4771-135a-08d96b405242 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Aug 2021 22:57:05.0801 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ogpensTtcA8mwqhFpsy9XZBodAS77Z2PfrzN/hOMPSphjQ4lUehBDG7LiEwk4Ij4i8NZmJuzI5kvGCsSt55dUQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ0PR10MB4653 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10091 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2107140000 definitions=main-2108290150 X-Proofpoint-GUID: QzoGo-aTVf9ACc43NWppyoyR4NH9w-SF X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: QzoGo-aTVf9ACc43NWppyoyR4NH9w-SF X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > Informative text should be added to the following sections: 49.4.1 and > > 49.4.2. >=20 > I've now done so in Emacs 28. It was really difficult to find any > variable that you'd want to recommend anybody using `set-variable' on in > their init files, but I think I found a reasonable one. (If somebody > can come up with a better example, feel free to edit.) 1. `set-variable' is the wrong thing to recommend for an init file (for a couple of reasons). It's OK to use `customize-set-variable' and `custom-set-variables' in an init file. 2. And yet you closed #21695, saying "No, using setq for user options is fine"? Fine or not fine? Apparently, depending on the messenger, you now agree it's not always fine. 3. You found one example. So far so good. Now please DTRT: "Please (case by case) change examples that use `setq' to set an option value" ___ More generally, users shouldn't be encouraged to use `setq' to set user options, allowing as an _exception_ if they happen to have checked carefully and are sure that's a bad idea for this or that option. That's like encouraging use of list-modifying functions, allowing as an _exception_ if you happen to have checked carefully and are sure it's a bad idea in some particular case. IOW, such guidance is backward. As a _general rule_, users should be DIScouraged from using `setq' with user options. And they should be told why, so they understand and remember the guidance. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable' Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:59:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams , "21695@debbugs.gnu.org" <21695@debbugs.gnu.org> Cc: Kevin Vigouroux , Lars Ingebrigtsen Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16302779178357 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:59:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Aug 2021 22:58:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57715 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mKTl6-0002Aj-Qz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Aug 2021 18:58:37 -0400 Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:36038) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mKTl1-0002AW-Jx for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:58:27 +0000 From: Drew Adams Thread-Topic: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable' Thread-Index: AdedCKrY3kkIy+2pRZSVS3g9E7QswAAHJFzgAACyaLAAAFJbUA== Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:58:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: oracle.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;oracle.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 21186a8a-f9dd-4826-f1f8-08d96b408374 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB4653: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:3631; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 21186a8a-f9dd-4826-f1f8-08d96b408374 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Aug 2021 22:58:27.6387 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: tWD5shu2tW2oI4I0hwIaLWroLtzLHe0wEJOCDNWFc4ldIQ3qQRVwHxbjGhBIIjAap5bBgGJNVFKplardp75F8A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ0PR10MB4653 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10091 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2107140000 definitions=main-2108290150 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: B5Oc13Dw2ubyDYmudrfeHgSnSHhFGnaM X-Proofpoint-GUID: B5Oc13Dw2ubyDYmudrfeHgSnSHhFGnaM X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) PiBJIGFsc28gcmVtb3ZlZCBtZW50aW9uIG9mIHVzaW5nIGBjdXN0b21pemUtc2V0LXZhbHVlJw0K PiBpbiBhbiBpbml0IGZpbGUgLSB5ZXMsIHRoYXQgd2FzIG1pc2xlYWRpbmcuICBMZXQgbWUNCj4g aWYgSSBtaXNzZWQgc29tZXRoaW5nLiAgVGh4Lg0KIF4NCmtub3cNCg== From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:08:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163037923518904 (code B ref 21695); Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:08:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2021 03:07:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60811 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mKu7C-0004um-Ku for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:07:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35602) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mKu76-0004uC-Bg for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:07:08 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:44574) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mKu70-0005n8-D5; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:06:58 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mKu70-0004TX-7D; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:06:58 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 29 Aug 2021 22:36:43 +0000) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:06:58 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] There are a few customization options that are not really variables and need to be set with `customize-set-variable'. However, the rest of them are variables and normally set with `setq' and friends. Telling users to set them all with `customize-set-variable' will be a significant hassle. What's more, users will disregard this instruction. `setq' is easy to remember and we all know it. Having a recommendation in the manual which users will generally reject is in itself a problem. I think we should address this some other way. Here are some ideas. * indicate the few customization options which are not really variables. * tell people how to check whether a customization options is really a variable. * warn about setq for a customization option that isn't really a variable. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Arthur Miller Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:44:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Richard Stallman Cc: ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163038140422292 (code B ref 21695); Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:44:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2021 03:43:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60834 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mKugC-0005nO-J0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:43:24 -0400 Received: from mail-oln040092073058.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.73.58]:59140 helo=EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mKug6-0005n5-C7 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:43:07 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:AEF3932E0817030F790B0E0CFBDD564BB31642617812EDF9DC52844F367FE4B5; UpperCasedChecksum:68C779359B56B0A147327CF0687AB95A0FD64C9FC238022150F27E805CF6C65C; SizeAsReceived:7769; Count:46 Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::35f2:ac79:ee50:c46c]) by AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::35f2:ac79:ee50:c46c%8]) with mapi id 15.20.4457.024; Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:43:07 +0000 From: Arthur Miller References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 05:43:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:06:58 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Content-Type: text/plain X-TMN: [7YOxNWyaLPjs5wQfEi2DpBHyxpxWNQ4d] X-ClientProxiedBy: AM6P195CA0012.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:81::25) To AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:304::20) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87o89e46ut.fsf@live.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from pascal.homepc (81.232.177.30) by AM6P195CA0012.EURP195.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:209:81::25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4457.20 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 31 Aug 2021 03:43:06 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 46 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 1331dd21-7a6f-4f9b-6119-08d96c3171e3 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB3EUR04HT161: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: xnNYABGTbjIQsh/CfyAD/8BqUwmwUFeZkbJFfDp0hIUWLpsIM3H6ffbf4dDuxUmsbF05nnIxWkyLUIYdE/8YTbLVWs0g4zLEv+XU8vjhyNVAmxpHqVWdrhcIy7+rVjfNy+5zLOqwIljRBCsSpWsFwPlG3gypqnJPL809bkTTSIN+V9ezG8biw2IJuy2QeN+ff5o4TcGaB4jo9tRT1rK4Fh5xRco24BQOcw4daPPjotsEPDrVaF/5/NAlfaQdrWSjLUlE0FdaUoc+giPZBqRA1pyVr+cf4i7m2jhuUjam5YQgWxjAbgyuHWYNpXydA8AxSgh//cd8E9d7Tnvg/jDPxWfJfgYS7LNCza2ID6CgALsiJXK5w9kxv7m8iEaQsKo3ps+EN5pNaTflpuZuJo1ypkZm0dWNO/enCLjpAKKU7SZFtxff11T36ICMHIlnjZS3 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: DoX12Ob/3j2mP6L+ByK7ySQ8cbPnbfRYIwe7j74ZICWapSqp6aOhhQy3+QmZPuddHMcz1a4uPdbis8UFpB8aPFuB5fU3So3gOqoFWeaLEObiR/joCPWTa+WQoHnkE2GJ7zD6+E9dqB5rPEIHWS2PNg== X-OriginatorOrg: live.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1331dd21-7a6f-4f9b-6119-08d96c3171e3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2021 03:43:07.4149 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB3EUR04FT031.eop-eur04.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB3EUR04HT161 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > There are a few customization options that are not really variables > and need to be set with `customize-set-variable'. > > However, the rest of them are variables and normally set with `setq' > and friends. > > Telling users to set them all with `customize-set-variable' will be a > significant hassle. What's more, users will disregard this instruction. > `setq' is easy to remember and we all know it. > > Having a recommendation in the manual which users will generally > reject is in itself a problem. > > I think we should address this some other way. Here are some ideas. > > * indicate the few customization options > which are not really variables. > * tell people how to check whether > a customization options is really a variable. > * warn about setq for a customization option that isn't really a variable. Not many people seem to prefer customize to simply setq-ing in their init file, so I think that what you propose is a much better alternative. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: [External] : Re: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? 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Tue, 31 Aug 2021 16:15:33 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4457.024; Tue, 31 Aug 2021 16:15:33 +0000 From: Drew Adams Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6d021055-22e1-4b8c-c9e7-08d96c9a8f66 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 31 Aug 2021 16:15:33.5381 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: LMsstCQgDR5TfrVh2Zem4uFz6qHkViEJhB6C3Bphqm/HBYi8BQ7f3cBUnKK+98GCVnD2Dge7RhEZ1WYXHrUJeA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR10MB2645 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10093 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2107140000 definitions=main-2108310087 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: sTmPm5LAIA6XSuoxRd0cxSTH2L71dUqw X-Proofpoint-GUID: sTmPm5LAIA6XSuoxRd0cxSTH2L71dUqw X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Not many people seem to prefer customize to simply setq-ing in their init > file, so I think that what you propose is a much better alternative. Not many people have a clue about not using `setq' with user options. Not many people have a clue about the functions designed to set user options. The fact that many people don't use the Customize UI is irrelevant here, IMO. This is about what Elisp to guide users toward using, to set user options. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: [External] : Re: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? 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Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? In-Reply-To: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> Resent-From: Howard Melman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 03:08:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.163046564817981 (code B ref -1); Wed, 01 Sep 2021 03:08:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2021 03:07:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35740 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLGay-0004ft-Lj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2021 23:07:28 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:52726) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLGat-0004fi-BX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2021 23:07:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55026) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLGat-0005Wj-6i for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2021 23:07:19 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:36058) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLGas-0007VX-0V for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2021 23:07:18 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mLGao-0008a9-8c for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 05:07:14 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ From: Howard Melman Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2021 23:07:07 -0400 Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:b5fhZswMu95us4lgXrFiFkzxkh0= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 5 X-Spam_score: 0.5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) Richard Stallman writes: > There are a few customization options that are not really variables > and need to be set with `customize-set-variable'. > * indicate the few customization options > which are not really variables. Searching emacs 27.2 elisp source I find about 400 hits for :set. Searching my installed packages I find about 30 more. That seems like more than a few. -- Howard From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Augusto Stoffel Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 12:50:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Richard Stallman Cc: ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163050054521921 (code B ref 21695); Wed, 01 Sep 2021 12:50:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2021 12:49:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36614 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLPfs-0005hV-RJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 08:49:05 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f44.google.com ([209.85.128.44]:35650) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLPfr-0005gh-DH for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 08:49:03 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f44.google.com with SMTP id z9-20020a7bc149000000b002e8861aff59so4716919wmi.0 for <21695@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 05:49:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=fJXXoypYocWLTAHjPbhCezBII6YUY90mPOGf/57ihmo=; b=G6mT+2tpfSXEdxYREOqLnlmsWZQGLICLa1e+G9Ge5Fo/05kiGnUhuDpTnRSltGaIRp 4MUM2DmS8utm/tkdfx0WJCg2oo1OgO2UQXe3/qjLiDHW2LBUaZuSFWpekYveCnK9CB4R 5F5mqQnlKJ8539ROERaS+jOQQ6uCFIc00iXrYawzAlDZPZ1RMR1imez0cC8f+2mbCPKp KAqF6uUYpNLIAQt1oUT67hQwFw0BaB5upmsB+OA7WirJsK5RDp/q6mM7Sbbe2BtCI/IS WAkuMjrp0QJ9X2/O9gs0INR89Qq/LRiMxHWQSmVDklDndr+6F/aLIcpEc54uH8u7yJag zDeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=fJXXoypYocWLTAHjPbhCezBII6YUY90mPOGf/57ihmo=; b=NClM4EnkBEyBEBuS8bQM/e4OuaBZL111PYE0bnu9/4JHQxhRO168omp5OhceWH1JNv mmf8lqW1ZqSsVtoBhB3y49+UkHD5yKvNnclLrC7b1FY6C4DLoBZ/xxX2BrUsc/TpOUQK C7DHdmeyBDLrRt6opWGitY1QEMK7MPrtBXVPnjiQBvAytqWZKDa4rRYOx06DJ+sY3n8o o8T4HRepUfS0fS6TICXZEU4J5fbs2KRveFY19kIDNLqqtC/lDczA5MJkTJYyoJDkxiy2 UAVFyxkQjS4GX/u+pjwIM/DwWlIPlruqhysEDhnepQH0YhzXgLNYYC+jC662aBaR78Jc LFNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Vyh11EkXTnt2HblVKpqps4kT8ejj9MkjvO7NMqzm4pnDXR60a ln4H61OQs5xCis2o1fFX5xE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJylwSKjZAFtqajYgKlVNTA4Bk7EGUmPsaO8LsJKwTe7smB+7WU8k0qzNX+KHa8Kyl3s2Wtksg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:428a:: with SMTP id v10mr9460950wmc.25.1630500537446; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 05:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ars3 ([2a02:8109:8ac0:56d0::ae3f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v13sm21863480wrf.55.2021.09.01.05.48.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 01 Sep 2021 05:48:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Augusto Stoffel References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 14:48:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Mon, 30 Aug 2021 23:06:58 -0400") Message-ID: <878s0g796w.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 at 23:06, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > There are a few customization options that are not really variables > and need to be set with `customize-set-variable'. > > However, the rest of them are variables and normally set with `setq' > and friends. > > Telling users to set them all with `customize-set-variable' will be a > significant hassle. What's more, users will disregard this instruction. > `setq' is easy to remember and we all know it. > > Having a recommendation in the manual which users will generally > reject is in itself a problem. > > I think we should address this some other way. Here are some ideas. > > * indicate the few customization options > which are not really variables. > * tell people how to check whether > a customization options is really a variable. > * warn about setq for a customization option that isn't really a variable. I have encountered one pitfall with setq in my init files, but it has nothing to do with customize. Namely, if a variable is marked to automatically become buffer-local when set, then setq will only set it in the temporary buffer where init.el is evaluated. Maybe calling setq during init time on automatically buffer-local variables should generate a warning. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 03:39:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Augusto Stoffel Cc: ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163055392714563 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 02 Sep 2021 03:39:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2021 03:38:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39306 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLdYs-0003mp-Vm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:38:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36176) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLdYq-0003mc-VQ for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:38:45 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:46518) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLdYj-0003Lr-K6; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:38:39 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLdYj-0003Qc-Fw; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:38:37 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: <878s0g796w.fsf@gmail.com> (message from Augusto Stoffel on Wed, 01 Sep 2021 14:48:55 +0200) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <878s0g796w.fsf@gmail.com> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:38:37 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Namely, if a variable is marked to automatically become buffer-local > when set, then setq will only set it in the temporary buffer where > init.el is evaluated. With those variables, you're supposed to use setq-default if your aim is to change the default value. > Maybe calling setq during init time on automatically buffer-local > variables should generate a warning. Perhaps it should do that only if you're in the buffer that is current by default during the init files. I think the basic idea of this warning is good. There are various possble ways to implement a warning, so it would be useful to look, now, for the best way. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 03:43:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Howard Melman Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163055413514893 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 02 Sep 2021 03:43:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2021 03:42:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39310 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLdcF-0003s9-Fm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:42:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37080) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLdcD-0003rw-Ik for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:42:13 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:46716) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLdc8-0006UO-BV; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:42:08 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLdc4-0004JR-W5; Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:42:05 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: (message from Howard Melman on Tue, 31 Aug 2021 23:07:07 -0400) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:42:04 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Searching emacs 27.2 elisp source I find about 400 hits for :set. That is more than I expected. However, there around 8000 defcustoms in master as of May 11, and only 462 instances of :set. Telling people to use customize-set-variable for all 8000 of them feels like the tail wagging the dog. I have a feeling that most of those 462 with :set actually require that people use customize-set-variable to set them in the init file. I suspect that, for most of them, :set is meant to handle the case where you change the setting once the feature is already in use. I think that if we eliminate these, we will get a much smaller number of exceptions, and we could find a nicer way to handle them. But even with 462 exceptions, it could be easy enough to warn about setting one of those in .emacs with setq. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 06:54:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: rms@gnu.org Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16305656189838 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 02 Sep 2021 06:54:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2021 06:53:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39501 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbS-0002Yc-H5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:53:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35616) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbQ-0002YQ-ES for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:53:37 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:51020) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbL-0001nn-3v; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:53:31 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2819 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbC-0007wb-S5; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:53:23 -0400 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 09:53:20 +0300 Message-Id: <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:42:04 -0400) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Richard Stallman > Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:42:04 -0400 > Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Searching emacs 27.2 elisp source I find about 400 hits for :set. > > That is more than I expected. However, there around 8000 defcustoms > in master as of May 11, and only 462 instances of :set. > > Telling people to use customize-set-variable for all 8000 of them > feels like the tail wagging the dog. Yes. But I don't see why the numbers matter here. An option which cannot be usefully change via setq mentions that in its doc string (or at least it should; if it doesn't, that's a documentation bug), so all we need to say in the manual is that such options exist, and they announce the need to use customize-set-variable in their doc string by such-and-such text. Then the users will have enough information to figure out which variable needs what method. > I have a feeling that most of those 462 with :set actually require > that people use customize-set-variable to set them in the init file. > I suspect that, for most of them, :set is meant to handle the case > where you change the setting once the feature is already in use. That's an orthogonal issue, I think. The issue at hand is how to prevent users from mistakenly using setq where doing that is insufficient. We could independently see to it that the number of options that actually need this is kept at a minimum. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: [External] : Re: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Kevin Vigouroux Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 06:55:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: "larsi@gnus.org" , "21695@debbugs.gnu.org" <21695@debbugs.gnu.org>, "rms@gnu.org" Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16305656459899 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 02 Sep 2021 06:55:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2021 06:54:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39506 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbs-0002Zb-Po for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:54:04 -0400 Received: from smtp-outgoing-1903.laposte.net ([160.92.124.107]:40898) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgbq-0002Yz-Fs for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:54:03 -0400 X-mail-filterd: {"version":"1.3.1", "queueID":"4H0WqN2BY0z14K0Y", "contextId":"62df97b4-e93b-48b0-911a-297d855c70a8"} Received: from outgoing-mail.laposte.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpnf0109.laposte.net (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4H0WqN2BY0z14K0Y; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 08:53:52 +0200 (CEST) X-mail-filterd: {"version":"1.3.1", "queueID":"4H0WqM5MWDz14K0V", "contextId":"dd7caf34-731c-4841-bfc3-972f3d2580b6"} X-lpn-mailing: LEGIT X-lpn-spamrating: 46 X-lpn-spamlevel: not-spam X-lpn-spamcause: OK, (-100)(0000)gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddruddvgedgudduvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfntefrqffuvffgpdfqfgfvpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpefhvffufhffjgfkfgggtgfgsehtqhertddtreejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghvihhnucggihhgohhurhhouhiguceokhgvrdhvihhgohhurhhouhigsehlrghpohhsthgvrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekteejteffgeevgeegueegkeefgeekfeegtddtvefhffejgeefkefgfefgkeeltdenucfkphepuddtledrvddukedrvddrudegtdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepihhnvghtpedutdelrddvudekrddvrddugedtpdhhvghloheprghrrghgohhgpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepkhgvrdhvihhgohhurhhouhigsehlrghpohhsthgvrdhnvghtpdhrtghpthhtoheplhgrrhhsihesghhnuhhsrdhorhhgpdhrtghpthhtohepvdduieelheesuggvsggsuhhgshdrghhnuhdrohhrghdprhgtphhtthhopehrmhhssehgnhhurdhorhhgpdhrtghpthhtohepughrvgifrdgruggrmhhssehorhgrtghlvgdrtghomh Received: from aragog (arennes-653-1-227-140.w109-218.abo.wanadoo.fr [109.218.2.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mlpnf0109.laposte.net (SMTP Server) with ESMTPSA id 4H0WqM5MWDz14K0V; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 08:53:51 +0200 (CEST) From: Kevin Vigouroux References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 08:53:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 31 Aug 2021 16:15:31 +0000") Message-ID: <87a6kvzcw1.fsf@laposte.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=laposte.net; s=lpn-wlmd; t=1630565635; bh=EWuS2gY3wFP1W0F4J9mizC0iQ9eq/+BBE8vqtf4aPlc=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=AIFUpK/0rKoefRS9BDLtt4+h07Fx4HYkLmeVCwx4ARJ9F2J5J+qJwGf/i5g06r0PPIVVfVeyVBjENsSoOaMmCnzunxOLOLRD5rYEx6Dt6abZVXe+PBIiDck93RS5EY+/x1ztZna8DxyEfj8m4QWurqKhFHEmbhECuHgtdluvJ/B6BlPU5Rukkt2lXw/C4aFIm76sXDBUjsQb3zT8rs/6BGvDjL8FLTDR9m0yB4OvQqNRZeuKkVTgbF7HsjtN0yWBc4u5JQms2AisSZ1PePlQd5C/suBxNFvytJeHHPDEj4K0Rq8KeiF2OOStOedbKjVLTk6udzZo+zeCwYEuBaf89w==; X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) The potential issue is to hide the developer's view of how to proceed or how things work by presenting them with another interface. It would be much better to bridge the gap between the user and the developer. Choosing to replace `setq' with `customize-set-variable' would be like cutting yourself off from an alternative path. In other words, this would lead to the following situations. =E2=80=A3 customize-set-variable: =E2=80=9COkay, so I choose the value of t= his parameter.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A3 setq: =E2=80=9CI need to change the value of this variable to cha= nge the operation.=E2=80=9D Even though `customize-set-variable' is more convenient at first, it is a bit like discouraging the user from taking another route by blocking the way: too complicated. With the other approach you can always use both `setq' and the *Customize* interface (simultaneously and as the last resort). From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 06:57:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: rms@gnu.org Cc: ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, arstoffel@gmail.com, larsi@gnus.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163056579410143 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 02 Sep 2021 06:57:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2021 06:56:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39513 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgeI-0002dX-G6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:56:34 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36172) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgeG-0002dK-Gg for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:56:32 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:51114) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLgeB-0004T9-3X; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:56:27 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3005 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLge4-0000Bw-Rq; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 02:56:21 -0400 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 09:56:19 +0300 Message-Id: <837dfzpiss.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:38:37 -0400) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <878s0g796w.fsf@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Richard Stallman > Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:38:37 -0400 > Cc: ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org > > > Maybe calling setq during init time on automatically buffer-local > > variables should generate a warning. > > Perhaps it should do that only if you're in the buffer that is > current by default during the init files. > > I think the basic idea of this warning is good. > There are various possble ways to implement a warning, > so it would be useful to look, now, for the best way. That could be done, but let's please keep in mind that warnings shown during startup are notoriously easy to miss, especially if your startup sequence does a lot. Those messages flush in the echo-area, interspersed with a lot of informative messages from features that are initialized at startup, and the only way to see them is to look in *Messages* after startup, something that is unlikely to be done by a lot of us. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: [External] : bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? 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Really? 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a1aaa0c5-ca90-4df1-c73a-08d96e343124 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Sep 2021 17:07:49.0538 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: I5O5Waftd1sIbiTjen7DV2D3g0sYo+tRJAxtJPkPIdUA3+NCo0IlVPZOswdhBvkLKAJGoVUWQ5NiOLnHbTES6A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ0PR10MB5565 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10095 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2108310000 definitions=main-2109020099 X-Proofpoint-GUID: 3tMJjonflFedgOM9_jitaDeH2GTlBZez X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 3tMJjonflFedgOM9_jitaDeH2GTlBZez X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) PiBXaXRoIHRob3NlIHZhcmlhYmxlcywgeW91J3JlIHN1cHBvc2VkIHRvIHVzZSBzZXRxLWRlZmF1 bHQgaWYgeW91cg0KPiBhaW0gaXMgdG8gY2hhbmdlIHRoZSBkZWZhdWx0IHZhbHVlLg0KPiANCj4g ICA+IE1heWJlIGNhbGxpbmcgc2V0cSBkdXJpbmcgaW5pdCB0aW1lIG9uIGF1dG9tYXRpY2FsbHkg YnVmZmVyLWxvY2FsDQo+ICAgPiB2YXJpYWJsZXMgc2hvdWxkIGdlbmVyYXRlIGEgd2FybmluZy4N Cj4gDQo+IFBlcmhhcHMgaXQgc2hvdWxkIGRvIHRoYXQgb25seSBpZiB5b3UncmUgaW4gdGhlIGJ1 ZmZlciB0aGF0IGlzDQo+IGN1cnJlbnQgYnkgZGVmYXVsdCBkdXJpbmcgdGhlIGluaXQgZmlsZXMu DQo+IA0KPiBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBiYXNpYyBpZGVhIG9mIHRoaXMgd2FybmluZyBpcyBnb29kLg0K PiBUaGVyZSBhcmUgdmFyaW91cyBwb3NzYmxlIHdheXMgdG8gaW1wbGVtZW50IGEgd2FybmluZywN Cj4gc28gaXQgd291bGQgYmUgdXNlZnVsIHRvIGxvb2ssIG5vdywgZm9yIHRoZSBiZXN0IHdheS4N Cg0KSSByZWFsbHkgc2hvdWxkIGhhdmUgbWFkZSBjbGVhciBpbiB0aGUgYnVnIHRpdGxlIGFuZA0K d3JpdGUtdXAgdGhhdCBJIHdhcyB0YWxraW5nIGFib3V0IHRoZSB1c2Ugb2YgYHNldHEnDQp3aXRo IHVzZXIgb3B0aW9ucy4NCg0KVGhlIHVzZSBvZiBgc2V0cScgd2l0aCBidWZmZXItbG9jYWwgdmFy aWFibGVzLCB3aGVuDQp3aGF0IHNvbWVvbmUgcmVhbGx5IHdhbnRzIGlzIHRvIHVzZSBgc2V0cS1k ZWZhdWx0JywNCmlzIGFuIG9ydGhvZ29uYWwgaXNzdWUuDQoNCkl0J3MgZmluZSB0byBleGFtaW5l IG9jY3VycmVuY2VzIG9mIGBzZXRxJyBpbiB0aGUNCmRvY3MgZm9yIGJvdGggaXNzdWVzLCBidXQg dGhlIGJ1ZmZlci1sb2NhbCAod2hpY2gNCmFsc28gbWVhbnMgbm9uLW9wdGlvbikgY2FzZSB3YXMg bm90IHdoYXQgSSBoYWQgaW4NCm1pbmQgd2hlbiBmaWxpbmcgdGhlIHJlcG9ydC4NCg== From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: [External] : bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 17:09:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , "rms@gnu.org" Cc: "21695@debbugs.gnu.org" <21695@debbugs.gnu.org>, "hmelman@gmail.com" Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163060248824323 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 02 Sep 2021 17:09:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2021 17:08:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41946 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLqC8-0006KF-DK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 13:08:08 -0400 Received: from mx0a-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.165.32]:19638) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLqC5-0006K6-O7 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 13:08:07 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (m0246617.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 182GxisX012285; 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Really? 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5d4691d5-26ee-4187-eec1-08d96e3438c6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Sep 2021 17:08:01.8655 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Ez1av5VZyRpKMecwXJchhxsEWKZ66D1OgzqOXrEV0LNEHpeI/7u8VuNfvnkOgB50ezAFm0XuY2Vt2kQRvZ/oRQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ0PR10MB5565 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10095 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2108310000 definitions=main-2109020099 X-Proofpoint-GUID: hBez5MYD_CvmQsTvaESOaHC7f94fndc- X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: hBez5MYD_CvmQsTvaESOaHC7f94fndc- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > Telling people to use customize-set-variable for all 8000 of them > > feels like the tail wagging the dog. >=20 > Yes. But I don't see why the numbers matter here. I agree. > An option which cannot be usefully change via setq > mentions that in its doc string (or at least it > should; if it doesn't, that's a documentation bug), Yes, but what about 3rd-party code that doesn't bother saying that in doc strings? Sure, it's wrong; but does that recommendation solve the problem? > so all we need to say in the manual is that such > options exist, and they announce the need to use > customize-set-variable in their doc string by > such-and-such text. Then the users will have > enough information to figure out which variable > needs what method. See above, about 3rd-party code. And that approach requires users to be on the lookout for this. That's a bit like not having stop signs and just telling people to always look both ways before going through an intersection. Sure, they've been warned. But they then need to check every intersection, even if there are few cars on the crossroads. And it's little comfort after an incident to be say "Told you to watch out." > > I have a feeling that most of those 462 with :set actually require > > that people use customize-set-variable to set them in the init file. > > I suspect that, for most of them, :set is meant to handle the case > > where you change the setting once the feature is already in use. >=20 > That's an orthogonal issue, I think. The issue at hand is how to > prevent users from mistakenly using setq where doing that is > insufficient. We could independently see to it that the number of > options that actually need this is kept at a minimum. Agreed. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: [External] : Re: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? 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Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:08:10 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82%8]) with mapi id 15.20.4478.022; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:08:10 +0000 From: Drew Adams Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? 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IG1lYW4gdXNlIGBzZXRxJyB3aXRoIG9wdGlvbnMsDQp0aGVuIEkgZ3Vlc3MgeW91J3JlIHNheWlu ZyB0aGF0IHVzZXJzIGNhbg0KdXNlIGBzZXRxJywgYW5kIGlmIHRoZXkgcnVuIGludG8gdGhlIGdv dGNoYQ0KKHdoaWNoIGlzIHNlbGRvbSwgYWRtaXR0ZWRseSkgdGhleSBjYW4gYWx3YXlzDQp1c2Ug dGhlIEN1c3RvbWl6ZSBVSSB0byB0YWtlIGNhcmUgb2YgdGhhdC4NCg0KU3VyZSwgdGhleSBjYW4u ICBPbmNlIHRoZXkgZmlndXJlIG91dCB3aGF0J3MNCmhhcHBlbmVkLiAgT25jZSB0aGV5J3ZlIGZh bGxlbiBpbnRvIHRoZSBob2xlDQppbiB0aGUgYmxhY2sgb2YgbmlnaHQsIGFuZCB0aGV5IGZpZ3Vy ZSBvdXQNCnRoYXQgdGhleSdyZSBpbiBhIGhvbGUsIGFuZCB0aGV5IGdyb3BlIGFuZA0KZmluZCBh IHJvcGUgdG8gY2xpbWIgb3V0IHdpdGgsIHRoZXknbGwgYmUNCmZpbmUuDQoNCkFuZCBob3BlZnVs bHkgYnkgdGhhdCBleHBlcmllbmNlIHRoZXknbGwNCmhhdmUgbGVhcm5lZCBub3QgdG8gdXNlIGBz ZXRxJyB3aXRoIChhdCBsZWFzdA0Kc29tZSkgdXNlciBvcHRpb25zLiAgQW5kIG1heWJlIGZyb20g dGhlbiBvbg0KdGhleSdsbCBodW50IGRvd24gZWFjaCBvcHRpb24ncyBkZWZjdXN0b20sDQp0byBz ZWUgd2hldGhlciBpdCB1c2VzIDpzZXQgb3IgOmluaXRpYWxpemUsDQphbmQgX29ubHlfIGlmIHNv IHdpbGwgdGhleSB1c2UgQ3VzdG9taXplLg0KDQpJT1csIGEgbG90IG9mIHRyb3VibGUgKGZhbGxp bmcgaW50byB0aGUgcGl0LA0KbGVhcm5pbmcgaG93IHRvIGdldCBvdXQpIGFuZCBib3RoZXIgKGZy b20NCnRoZW4gb24sIGNoZWNraW5nIGVhY2ggb3B0aW9uIHRvIHNlZSBpZg0KYHNldHEnIGNhbiBz YWZlbHkgYmUgdXNlZCB3aXRoIGl0LCBvZiBpZg0Kbm90IGJvdGhlcmluZyB0byBjaGVjaywgdGhl biByaXNraW5nIHRoZQ0KcGl0IGFnYWluKS4NCg== From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: [External] : bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? 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Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:08:23 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0bc:7c3a:292f:8a82%8]) with mapi id 15.20.4478.022; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:08:23 +0000 From: Drew Adams Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? 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dWcgd2FzIGFscmVhZHkgc3VtbWFyaWx5IGRpc21pc3NlZA0KKCJ3b24ndCBmaXgiKS4NCg0K From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: [External] : bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 17:18:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163060303925202 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 02 Sep 2021 17:18:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2021 17:17:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41971 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLqL1-0006YQ-JF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 13:17:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40934) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mLqL0-0006YD-DA for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 13:17:18 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:42934) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLqKu-0006GC-QR; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 13:17:12 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1976 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mLqKn-0004Hm-Vt; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 13:17:06 -0400 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2021 20:17:02 +0300 Message-Id: <83fsumzylt.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:08:01 +0000) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "21695@debbugs.gnu.org" <21695@debbugs.gnu.org>, > "hmelman@gmail.com" > > Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:08:01 +0000 > > > An option which cannot be usefully change via setq > > mentions that in its doc string (or at least it > > should; if it doesn't, that's a documentation bug), > > Yes, but what about 3rd-party code that doesn't > bother saying that in doc strings? Sure, it's > wrong; but does that recommendation solve the > problem? Our manual documents Emacs, not every piece of Lisp out there. If customizable options in 3rd-party packages need different instructions, the developers of those packages should document them. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable' Resent-From: Kevin Vigouroux Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 09:55:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: "larsi@gnus.org" , "21695@debbugs.gnu.org" <21695@debbugs.gnu.org>, "rms@gnu.org" Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163066286024642 (code B ref 21695); Fri, 03 Sep 2021 09:55:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Sep 2021 09:54:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42995 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mM5ts-0006PN-7e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 05:54:20 -0400 Received: from smtp-outgoing-1902.laposte.net ([160.92.124.106]:55721) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mM5tq-0006PA-F6 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 05:54:19 -0400 X-mail-filterd: {"version":"1.3.1", "queueID":"4H1Cmx18FCzjWvq", "contextId":"54ca652c-5ac8-43df-bf92-00341654a8c2"} Received: from outgoing-mail.laposte.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpnf0116.laposte.net (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4H1Cmx18FCzjWvq; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:54:09 +0200 (CEST) X-mail-filterd: {"version":"1.3.1", "queueID":"4H1Cmw3dqhzjWvm", "contextId":"9dfcaeeb-151e-433f-b26c-5b8371b41ccf"} X-lpn-mailing: LEGIT X-lpn-spamrating: 46 X-lpn-spamlevel: not-spam X-lpn-spamcause: OK, (-100)(0000)gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddruddvjedgvddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecunfetrffquffvgfdpqfgfvfdpggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephffvufhfffgjkfgfgggtgfesthhqredttderjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvvhhinhcugghighhouhhrohhugicuoehkvgdrvhhighhouhhrohhugieslhgrphhoshhtvgdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeetjeetffegveeggeeugeekfeegkeefgedttdevhfffjeegfeekgfefgfekledtnecukfhppedutdelrddvudekrddufedtrdeiheenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepihhnvghtpedutdelrddvudekrddufedtrdeihedphhgvlhhopegrrhgrghhoghdpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehkvgdrvhhighhouhhrohhugieslhgrphhoshhtvgdrnhgvthdprhgtphhtthhopehrmhhssehgnhhurdhorhhgpdhrtghpthhtohepvdduieelheesuggvsggsuhhgshdrghhnuhdrohhrghdprhgtphhtthhopehlrghrshhisehgnhhushdrohhrghdprhgtphhtthhopegurhgvfidrrggurghmshesohhrrggtlhgvrdgtohhm Received: from aragog (arennes-653-1-291-65.w109-218.abo.wanadoo.fr [109.218.130.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mlpnf0116.laposte.net (SMTP Server) with ESMTPSA id 4H1Cmw3dqhzjWvm; Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:54:08 +0200 (CEST) From: Kevin Vigouroux References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <87a6kvzcw1.fsf@laposte.net> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 11:54:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:08:10 +0000") Message-ID: <87a6kuhtmo.fsf_-_@laposte.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=laposte.net; s=lpn-wlmd; t=1630662851; bh=seo6UdLfchMT0ES3oN2vzrW2CyAc/FDOU06bIAWzsYA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=aAjVsqBNgs+dkGYxvWUQZ4EnfnMn1M8fvIm5zGiaEixaqiGJQoxm+g/X/3kjg2D6J45WAT2I/J4+Fnfj0WU/RVKL6zdnUmhBHs7u6RxpS8j++GSI3wYcsNf0kIsQ/snh+4fOwIYp9VF6X/HGhlhNMyulx7+Qm+QTVkJT1DFhWRN1PwTq9mQR11bYnynfxsm2suNmqkvftAA7UVFC0zr/51/W0JRB2jcjuBwHx8xCuZNsV5LOj2QqgVdcjAKLtfJzPQNVJSkQqT+/5v17Wl07eWyeE0v1MNKbq2bzlZfHtYolz87QLD22N4sET7l/yqASacc/1+1z5RSRQMJ1iy0ghA==; X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) In my opinion, the issue is that the language (ELisp) should always be able to express things, in a general way. But here, the risk is to not be able to understand how things work without digging into the =E2=80=9CCustomize=E2=80=9D interface or to be overwhelmed by a ton of code= . At first sight it is easier but the path is already paved. The alternative I was talking about and which is recommended in the ELisp manual: each user option should indicate how to proceed (without using too many tricks). Otherwise, I don't see much point in learning Emacs Lisp anymore (you might as well refer to the Customize interface entirely, a kind of =E2=80=9Cblack box=E2=80=9D). In short, what is proposed is in my opinion counterproductive. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 03:40:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: rms@gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163072675016362 (code B ref 21695); Sat, 04 Sep 2021 03:40:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Sep 2021 03:39:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46188 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mMMWL-0004Fq-Dp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 23:39:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52282) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mMMWE-0004F9-Rr for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 23:39:08 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:46258) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMMW9-00024k-LL; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 23:38:57 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMMVX-0006em-Rk; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 23:38:19 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Wed, 01 Sep 2021 23:42:04 -0400) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2021 23:38:19 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I wrote > I have a feeling that most of those 462 with :set actually require > that people use customize-set-variable to set them in the init file. > I suspect that, for most of them, :set is meant to handle the case > where you change the setting once the feature is already in use. but I meant to add "not". > I have a feeling that most of those 462 with :set don't actually require > that people use customize-set-variable to set them in the init file. > I suspect that, for most of them, :set is meant to handle the case > where you change the setting once the feature is already in use. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: [External] : bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 03:43:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163081337617998 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 05 Sep 2021 03:43:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Sep 2021 03:42:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48931 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mMj3Y-0004gD-9u for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:42:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49218) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mMj3U-0004ft-AF for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:42:55 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:52834) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMj3O-0005CJ-T1; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:42:46 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMj3O-000140-Or; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:42:46 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Thu, 2 Sep 2021 17:08:22 +0000) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:42:46 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > What was suggested is that for Lisp use > it's appropriate to use `customize-set-variable', > not `setq'. Yes, that was the suggestion that I wrote to oppose. I claim that using setq is valid and reliable in nearly all cases, so the cost in inconvenience of that suggestion would outweigh the benefit. > I have a feeling that most of those 462 with :set actually require > that people use customize-set-variable to set them in the init file. I accidentally omitted "don't" here. Sorry. It should say > I have a feeling that most of those 462 with :set don't actually require > that people use customize-set-variable to set them in the init file. > > I suspect that, for most of them, :set is meant to handle the case > > where you change the setting once the feature is already in use. > Why do you suspect that? Because all uses of the variable are in the same file that contains the defcustom. When .emacs is running, the variable is not defined, We designed Customize to handle the case where the variable has already been set when the defcustom is executed. For these variables, there should be no problem, even if the variable uses :set. > And what difference does > it make when (or why) you change the value? The issue was defined that way. The case we are talking about is where .emacs sets the variable and doesn't use `customize-set-variable' to do it. There may be a real problem with a few variables. I can't be sure there isn't. But it will be just a few variables -- those that use :set and _are already defined_ when .emacs runs. This means they are variables that have a special, important role in Emacs, more important than customizing some Lisp library. There are not many of these which use :set. And perhaps not even all of those variables will have an actual problem. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: [External] : bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 03:43:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163081337618004 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 05 Sep 2021 03:43:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Sep 2021 03:42:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48933 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mMj3Y-0004gF-Ke for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:42:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49212) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mMj3U-0004fr-AT for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:42:55 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:52832) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMj3O-0005Bv-Fl; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:42:46 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMj3K-00013V-KY; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:42:42 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: <83fsumzylt.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Thu, 02 Sep 2021 20:17:02 +0300) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83fsumzylt.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:42:42 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Our manual documents Emacs, not every piece of Lisp out there. If > customizable options in 3rd-party packages need different > instructions, the developers of those packages should document them. Well said. We can't take responsibility for everything in the software world that relates to our work. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 03:44:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163081339218063 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 05 Sep 2021 03:44:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Sep 2021 03:43:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48938 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mMj3n-0004hH-TN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:43:12 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49268) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mMj3m-0004h4-Em for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:43:10 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:52848) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMj3h-0005Q7-7b; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:43:05 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMj3h-00018U-1d; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:43:05 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Thu, 02 Sep 2021 09:53:20 +0300) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:43:05 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Telling people to use customize-set-variable for all 8000 of them > > feels like the tail wagging the dog. > Yes. But I don't see why the numbers matter here. An option which > cannot be usefully change via setq mentions that in its doc string (or > at least it should; if it doesn't, that's a documentation bug), so all > we need to say in the manual is that such options exist, and they > announce the need to use customize-set-variable in their doc string by > such-and-such text. Then the users will have enough information to > figure out which variable needs what method. I agree, that is adequate. So I think we agree on this issue. However, it may be easy to warn if an init file sets one of these variables with setq. If that's easy, I think it would be good to do. It would help users detect and correct these mistakes. Maybe we could arrange to make it work right to set even those variables with setq in init files. Here's a way: after the init files finish, look at the value of the variable, and if it does not equal the default, and this value was not properly installed with the :set method, invoke that variable's :set method. WDYT? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 17:44:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: rms@gnu.org Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16309502137524 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 06 Sep 2021 17:44:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Sep 2021 17:43:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54401 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mNIeb-0001xI-Lp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 13:43:33 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39668) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mNIea-0001x5-Ak for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 13:43:32 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:47462) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNIeU-0002qb-PS; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 13:43:26 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1477 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNIeN-0002Ds-QA; Mon, 06 Sep 2021 13:43:20 -0400 Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 20:43:27 +0300 Message-Id: <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:43:05 -0400) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 23:43:05 -0400 > > Here's a way: after the init files finish, look at the value of the > variable, and if it does not equal the default, and this value was not > properly installed with the :set method, invoke that variable's :set > method. How would we know which variables to look at? From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 03:24:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163107143719038 (code B ref 21695); Wed, 08 Sep 2021 03:24:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Sep 2021 03:23:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58138 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mNoBo-0004x0-LI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:23:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36310) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mNoBn-0004wo-GU for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:23:55 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:48416) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNoBi-0001rV-BU; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:23:50 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNoBh-0006uL-L1; Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:23:49 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Mon, 06 Sep 2021 20:43:27 +0300) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:23:49 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Here's a way: after the init files finish, look at the value of the > > variable, and if it does not equal the default, and this value was not > > properly installed with the :set method, invoke that variable's :set > > method. > How would we know which variables to look at? We would determine which variables could actually have a problem. 1. Get the list of variables that use :set. 2. For each of those variables, see if it is used in any source file other than the one that contains the defcustom. A script can do this. Make a list of only those variables. 3. Now we have a much shorter list. We could use the whole of that list. 4. Or we could check some of these variables by hand and see whether we can prove some of them have no real problem. That could make the list shorter. 5. After the init files, we add code to check each of those variables. If the current value != the default, set the variable again to the same value using customize-set-variable. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 07:04:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: rms@gnu.org Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163108463817605 (code B ref 21695); Wed, 08 Sep 2021 07:04:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Sep 2021 07:03:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58378 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mNrck-0004Zr-3y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 03:03:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42688) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mNrcb-0004ZI-Oo for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 03:03:56 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:53176) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNrcW-00031m-Jd; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 03:03:44 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1627 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mNrcO-0003BB-QU; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 03:03:37 -0400 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 10:03:48 +0300 Message-Id: <83fsufo8ff.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:23:49 -0400) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 23:23:49 -0400 > > > How would we know which variables to look at? > > We would determine which variables could actually have a problem. > > 1. Get the list of variables that use :set. > > 2. For each of those variables, see if it is used in any source file > other than the one that contains the defcustom. A script can do this. "Any source file" should include all the Lisp files installed on the user's machine, right? So such a script would need to be run every startup (because the installed files can change)? Perhaps it would be better to walk the obarray instead? From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 03:12:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163115710217092 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 03:12:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2021 03:11:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33842 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOATW-0004Rb-DL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:11:42 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52578) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOATT-0004RN-No for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:11:40 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:43306) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mOATO-0003BO-IM; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:11:34 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mOATN-0007Fp-Dh; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:11:33 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: <83fsufo8ff.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Wed, 08 Sep 2021 10:03:48 +0300) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <83fsufo8ff.fsf@gnu.org> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:11:33 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > 1. Get the list of variables that use :set. > > > > 2. For each of those variables, see if it is used in any source file > > other than the one that contains the defcustom. A script can do this. > "Any source file" should include all the Lisp files installed on the > user's machine, right? I don't think so. There is no need. To make language clearer, let's say the variable is foofoo, its defcustom is in foofoo.el, and all its other uses in Emacs are in foofoo.el after the defcustom. That option doesn't have any problems, I think. Setting it with (setq foofoo ...) is something that should work in .emacs. But we don't say it will work in Lisp code in general. To do that, the user has to look up the right way to set it and do it that way. So I think what I proposed is correct. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 06:53:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: rms@gnu.org Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16311703346353 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 06:53:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2021 06:52:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34030 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mODuw-0001eP-8d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 02:52:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54850) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mODur-0001e6-Es for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 02:52:12 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49040) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mODul-0002NB-TX; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 02:52:04 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2257 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mODuf-0005Sn-P9; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 02:51:58 -0400 Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 09:52:11 +0300 Message-Id: <83a6kmkzqc.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:11:33 -0400) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <83fsufo8ff.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com > Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 23:11:33 -0400 > > > "Any source file" should include all the Lisp files installed on the > > user's machine, right? > > I don't think so. There is no need. > > To make language clearer, let's say the variable is foofoo, its defcustom > is in foofoo.el, and all its other uses in Emacs are in foofoo.el > after the defcustom. > > That option doesn't have any problems, I think. I don't see the significance of being defined and used in the same file, for this matter. A defcustom could need to use the :set attribute for such variables, if just changing the value doesn't produce the expected effect. For example, some other foofoo.el variables could depend on the value of foofoo, so any change in the value of the latter needs to recalculate the values of its dependencies. Now suppose .emacs uses (setq foofoo ...), and foofoo.el is from some third-party package, or even one of user's own init files. How will we be able to account for that by using a precompiled list of variables produced from just the bundled Emacs Lisp files? From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:44:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Richard Stallman Cc: Eli Zaretskii , hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163117343111497 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:44:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2021 07:43:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34056 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOEit-0002zM-Co for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 03:43:51 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:53282) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOEio-0002zB-16 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 03:43:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631173424; bh=53++7nsmTmLrbDJVIzjfj0H+8qUJeJIdFPOQx6hkiso=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=bibMSVtm4RMZk2NThDAtQkJVbmqbdGuBg4B17bGSlLsC2Qy7HCKinFTlAcVbf9JYP 5pYqVgHOfRIcaRDhBv6q0/2CqTyjJpD3VzmApofbGwd3HzVY2OmZx/+L/moqEju8MQ Onah0bLR6gVRNmxoN9PbpwA6uwGoYzkVjeNV4517jOYVTEcq8CHYxKVImnQWi/TvAw aNCz6Cd1IdKNyA/7CKq6miV8Vi4ij/cwAO4x6Tc7puI5WJLs3zjMqVi7CTJZ+z+2Fn 3520Up9YVlKsTDcs+oIvNyt2dVlQC/eJaVePgjDNQHNJtL1f4RoQLiIDI/4FhbG/MN 3TcH9WqMN/o7w== Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:43:44 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > We would determine which variables could actually have a problem. > > 1. Get the list of variables that use :set. > > 2. For each of those variables, see if it is used in any source file > other than the one that contains the defcustom. A script can do this. > Make a list of only those variables. > > 3. Now we have a much shorter list. We could use the whole of that > list. > > 4. Or we could check some of these variables by hand and see whether we > can prove some of them have no real problem. That could make the list > shorter. > > 5. After the init files, we add code to check each of those variables. > If the current value != the default, set the variable again to the same > value using customize-set-variable. > Instead of building such a list, is this not something that could be done inside Fsetq, by checking whether Fget (sym, Qcustom_set) is non-nil, and if so, issue an error/warning? From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 11:46:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Richard Stallman Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163118790211168 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 11:46:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2021 11:45:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34286 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOIUI-0002to-BL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:45:02 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:53502) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOIUG-0002tN-G2 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 07:45:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631187899; bh=iWk47s5sZH0Q61IbbLw1kh9H9LxlZI9wJsa+LjdzqDs=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=KQKkT7XpNxrjj0LDZPl9fKdZUptVuzjGxNwMsZ0cwQZRxfNh0TXzDPM/Qx+VnrXKD H77VZ1hHtYRPKsJo5efONNdcIlmOVvI1jddrCDT+lYrrIj/q5DG/qOvZzM29Jc1NMH BIInZ5+ISgw7gURGYtj1Dz4AOpFwYTMb9hFexgS2PmNGB8QDB4RHDCRge04YoArrId TW7eCrWBu8NDups+Aq+8ZtphOA/zV5DY7zzrOLkFCjCX7RX6LPrzq7lmgvJqNSATqw 02Ltrvd//Siw+zuRmHvaqcVmnvpiHk6E4y/kcI5Je5AR6OxIiK/nXtGqF3TiMLgnj6 j5DLh+QwSHMJA== Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 11:44:58 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="X99T95z12A" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --X99T95z12A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Instead of building such a list, is this not something that could be > done inside Fsetq, by checking whether Fget (sym, Qcustom_set) is > non-nil, and if so, issue an error/warning? > Patch attached. --X99T95z12A Content-Type: text/x-diff; name=Warn-when-defcustom-is-wrongly-set.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Warn-when-defcustom-is-wrongly-set.patch RnJvbSA1MGQxZTA3YWIwOThjM2M5ODI1OWY0MzUxNjdjYjFjYjRiZmViM2I1 IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQ0KRnJvbTogR3JlZ29yeSBIZXl0 aW5ncyA8Z3JlZ29yeUBoZXl0aW5ncy5vcmc+DQpEYXRlOiBUaHUsIDkgU2Vw IDIwMjEgMTE6NDA6NTAgKzAwMDANClN1YmplY3Q6IFtQQVRDSF0gV2FybiB3 aGVuIGRlZmN1c3RvbSBpcyB3cm9uZ2x5IHNldC4NCg0KKiBzcmMvZXZhbC5j IChGc2V0cSk6IERpc3BsYXkgd2FybmluZyB3aGVuIGEgY3VzdG9tIHZhcmlh YmxlIHdpdGggYSA6c2V0DQpwcm9wZXJ0eSBpcyBzZXQgd2l0aCBzZXRxLg0K LS0tDQogc3JjL2V2YWwuYyB8IDEwICsrKysrKysrKy0NCiAxIGZpbGUgY2hh bmdlZCwgOSBpbnNlcnRpb25zKCspLCAxIGRlbGV0aW9uKC0pDQoNCmRpZmYg LS1naXQgYS9zcmMvZXZhbC5jIGIvc3JjL2V2YWwuYw0KaW5kZXggNDgxMDRi ZDBmNC4uYjcyNTc3ZTc5MSAxMDA2NDQNCi0tLSBhL3NyYy9ldmFsLmMNCisr KyBiL3NyYy9ldmFsLmMNCkBAIC01MjUsOCArNTI1LDE2IEBAIERFRlVOICgi c2V0cSIsIEZzZXRxLCBTc2V0cSwgMCwgVU5FVkFMTEVELCAwLA0KIAkgICA6 IFFuaWwpOw0KICAgICAgIGlmICghTklMUCAobGV4X2JpbmRpbmcpKQ0KIAlY U0VUQ0RSIChsZXhfYmluZGluZywgdmFsKTsgLyogU1lNIGlzIGxleGljYWxs eSBib3VuZC4gICovDQotICAgICAgZWxzZQ0KKyAgICAgIGVsc2Ugew0KKwlp ZiAoIU5JTFAgKEZnZXQgKHN5bSwgaW50ZXJuICgiY3VzdG9tLXNldCIpKSkp DQorCSAgY2FsbDIgKGludGVybiAoImRpc3BsYXktd2FybmluZyIpLA0KKwkJ IGludGVybiAoImluaXRpYWxpemF0aW9uIiksDQorCQkgQ0FMTE4gKEZmb3Jt YXQsDQorCQkJYnVpbGRfc3RyaW5nDQorCQkJKCJgJXMnIHNob3VsZCBiZSBz ZXQgd2l0aCBgY3VzdG9taXplLXNldC12YXJpYWJsZScsIG5vdCBgc2V0cSci KSwNCisJCQlzeW0pKTsNCiAJRnNldCAoc3ltLCB2YWwpOwkvKiBTWU0gaXMg ZHluYW1pY2FsbHkgYm91bmQuICAqLw0KKyAgICAgIH0NCiAgICAgfQ0KIA0K ICAgcmV0dXJuIHZhbDsNCi0tIA0KMi4zMy4wDQoNCg== --X99T95z12A-- From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:08:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, Richard Stallman Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163118926413980 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:08:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2021 12:07:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34319 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOIqF-0003dQ-Ty for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:07:44 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:41978) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOIqC-0003dC-8h for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:07:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=+h2ntICRMZrzXv6tYWBW/plIWdAE/J8kao+00gBPQic=; b=K7QK3/3McVEM5LcD25186bOkM9 PAoOUm2sBFvoc9PCkbN61xjDER11DfOYZWZagMKgnVCQPMPwHK5AegeI46UBeXlmNllrxwfCOTYjj BaCdZMfwhWkgjwFnf8V57v3ZzXnWgCzWT/Qtz+9766AUxn+JPvoB5SuWKfoyxb5VQcAA=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mOIq2-0006Sf-1D; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:07:33 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:07:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Gregory Heytings's message of "Thu, 09 Sep 2021 11:44:58 +0000") Message-ID: <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Gregory Heytings writes: > * src/eval.c (Fsetq): Display warning when a custom variable with a :set > property is set with setq. It's usually fine to set user options that have a :set form with setq -- if you do it before the .el file it belongs in is loaded. Finding a variable it's problematic to use setq on in .emacs took som [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Gregory Heytings writes: > * src/eval.c (Fsetq): Display warning when a custom variable with a :set > property is set with setq. It's usually fine to set user options that have a :set form with setq -- if you do it before the .el file it belongs in is loaded. Finding a variable it's problematic to use setq on in .emacs took some digging (when I added the example in the manual). -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:13:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, Richard Stallman Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163118956214472 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:13:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2021 12:12:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34324 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOIv4-0003lM-Gu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:12:42 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:53554) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOIv3-0003lE-Jn for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:12:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631189560; bh=9BFqpJxyx7WJ/C5o5v5xobqD3TgpdDaXoa6ZmeWaoB0=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=Xs90pjwxy32/hiSBixMDNm7dal1qoan8+tCSJgR3dFfJkkTFsuXt5YxPFBEsQu88D EKqm2q+6gSFz1dRF8FRuX6fZKqvbQ2NiDF7OYt7mGDsQsf84wn6vF9lBBBknPEznot 4b1YhF26a1e1u/CPktA5VlH570MfyRUkYWOl3aSFV2RLCGYqPVv6OhyxIBFBzY2YY0 OotT7p70Dn2VSM4G2DqdhvxWV8yZFR0EoV2PP/R2hp1Axw/TKEsf47s3Y/9rTA+NrE fTwRL9NMTcSOWi86n0202VdnwY95jDxEOR7gFe48/avTx12kGxb9hRM2aLAMhJKAZU cswiCHPiuTyMw== Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:12:40 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> * src/eval.c (Fsetq): Display warning when a custom variable with a >> :set property is set with setq. > > It's usually fine to set user options that have a :set form with setq -- > if you do it before the .el file it belongs in is loaded. Finding a > variable it's problematic to use setq on in .emacs took some digging > (when I added the example in the manual). > Hmm... Unless I'm missing something, the case you mention (setq'ing a variable before the .el file is loaded) will not issue a warning. The example I used is (setq gdb-many-windows t). From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:16:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, Richard Stallman Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163118974814848 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:16:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2021 12:15:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34336 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOIy3-0003rP-NH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:15:47 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:42042) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOIy1-0003r7-HM for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:15:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=MB7lqE7kxCThN3vDxd4fi2xdMkWml3PyfhqSMAao4nQ=; b=sEgX2MIpewi9yR0tTJ0b8Uhjk3 L6wu4yWOZwvRvAPfSJepgWNIe4ZPn2VpUONuoxpi9paLks6A2MIER1qrCp1FIQI/hJ3WIDhvxpz7l LviZYPP9/Wx5n0M79zRzqf2NAHkbKyssr6N49sIlJR+efCo9QU3CROkO53q2+c4q6YUU=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mOIxs-0006ZS-Hh; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:15:38 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:15:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Gregory Heytings's message of "Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:12:40 +0000") Message-ID: <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Gregory Heytings writes: > Hmm... Unless I'm missing something, the case you mention (setq'ing a > variable before the .el file is loaded) will not issue a warning. The > example I used is (setq gdb-many-windows t). Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Gregory Heytings writes: > Hmm... Unless I'm missing something, the case you mention (setq'ing a > variable before the .el file is loaded) will not issue a warning. The > example I used is (setq gdb-many-windows t). That's not an autoloaded variable (well, minor mode), so Emacs doesn't know that it has a :set when .emacs is loaded. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:41:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, Richard Stallman Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163119125417430 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:41:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2021 12:40:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34359 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOJMM-0004X4-D6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:40:54 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:53582) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOJMK-0004Wt-7g for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:40:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631191250; bh=2OyilglbymeHnO2lxooKtuiae3c7aWcpFtL2iUzYG0Y=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=snr0hVVL7rz1B4YLWPOsgI+5fGXMDOB9X8LlRV/SfldVwbaB9Z7g/uykhUBgp1LSr IipsWpveEd8SItZG9rB0fA3ZsURFG+wAbnSYx5y8hZg35I21b8Kv5mohfJ8yY0ZmFY E0e4AAH2b8nbmtMFJaSqixoH/w3aeazruieuVbzAqVUH5UoOtUZFyVbUmeA9hcNc7I a57gpSxL350H3Z0Q4vZC+xAbmam6S4US5/63/Qb1XU77Sr3Jpq+/ap2R9SxySn6E+Y ShPq/1dWClnTl0mtUQjpu2EXiV/YlOWngPRZJCBYnEFWOYcu5Ki88u2y/tELwpQDrz P9fnLdw1KfY+w== Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:40:50 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>> It's usually fine to set user options that have a :set form with setq >>> -- if you do it before the .el file it belongs in is loaded. Finding >>> a variable it's problematic to use setq on in .emacs took some digging >>> (when I added the example in the manual). >> >> Hmm... Unless I'm missing something, the case you mention (setq'ing a >> variable before the .el file is loaded) will not issue a warning. The >> example I used is (setq gdb-many-windows t). > > That's not an autoloaded variable (well, minor mode), so Emacs doesn't > know that it has a :set when .emacs is loaded. > Oh, I see. You mean that setq'ing autoloaded variables, which are loaded before their .el files is loaded, can usually be setq'd, disregarding their :set property. But I don't see how one could distinguish between those for which it is problematic and those for which is isn't. ISTM that in this case displaying a warning even when it's not really problematic is better than not displaying warnings for those variable for which it is problematic? From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, Richard Stallman Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163119169118206 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:49:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2021 12:48:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34368 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOJTP-0004jZ-DL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:48:11 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:42644) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOJTN-0004jJ-Cd for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 08:48:09 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=doM57INf0AHDyjEBz4L6+uXAmodGgCC6r2HONFYZS6g=; b=Iuk0rmjdCzoGjnhnQxM7MkLT8n TwD4Fnc0GY6OY7GQw2VvOSaQDMER5QwXz2KeuMSdGoSBnkXdpCCNYmmdoYo6BA3MEIPtiiJtbweXJ ajDsfJsLteZ/dI0SfP3uNp5vZXCOE5EePcZgtYPE+XvKLj6k627pn+6IVPqiO7UQYwo0=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mOJTC-0006yH-TR; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:48:01 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:47:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Gregory Heytings's message of "Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:40:50 +0000") Message-ID: <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Gregory Heytings writes: > Oh, I see. You mean that setq'ing autoloaded variables, which are > loaded before their .el files is loaded, can usually be setq'd, > disregarding their :set property. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Gregory Heytings writes: > Oh, I see. You mean that setq'ing autoloaded variables, which are > loaded before their .el files is loaded, can usually be setq'd, > disregarding their :set property. No, I'm saying that (for most variables) Emacs doesn't know that there's a :set on the variable when loading .emacs. And that's fine. Also for variables where Emacs knows there a :set (which would then issue the warning), it's also fine, because loading the .el file works perfectly. Most of the :set thingies are for when you've already started the mode/package and then change things "in flight". > But I don't see how one could distinguish between those for which it > is problematic and those for which is isn't. ISTM that in this case > displaying a warning even when it's not really problematic is better > than not displaying warnings for those variable for which it is > problematic? No, displaying a useless warning (and it will be useless in the vast majority of the cases) isn't good. I haven't really been paying attention to this bug report after closing it -- we're not going to change the manual as requested, and it's fine to use setq in .emacs. If we're to do something about this, then somebody would have to go through all the defcustoms with :set and try to identify some that should, indeed, not be set with setq and tag them up. (There aren't a lot of these.) Which is why I closed this bug report in the first place. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 13:05:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, Richard Stallman Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163119264919890 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 13:05:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2021 13:04:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34377 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOJir-0005Aj-2O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 09:04:09 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:53618) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOJim-0005AY-B9 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 09:04:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631192643; bh=WbvT5deYdTH/S78pYVxyB8ZynXxnU/61WVmx2ns3kdo=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=X21FR90/VqjZkAm/3JVGth1Gx/a3bjGF6eLtp95FZXLW1QseW5ugl+T2RLAkMVUzo 0pdoKNTOD6T9VOl2o5o0mDcPFiUAOmPjtQf+8lvyLFHNbi4lecUHw+t2QLD5NOEuHe WM+XrbfpjSxcp4PLNTFbM7/auAP6P/XK3puKOYkGyVhbqc+vk2OkKOltS0WyI+ruAE jUe1bL++6Tz6FrUg3YSfNu8334/B73KZqX7JB+UU8dy4xTjFySPNGeM9nigAKtgXCj Huy5WrdFxeG+6f56Wk0kfBxAA9vdsg9QZGo48LpNJ8mXDqAqWf3be48CBM3PaKFWlf D8x1zqp5ilnbQ== Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 13:04:02 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > If we're to do something about this, then somebody would have to go > through all the defcustoms with :set and try to identify some that > should, indeed, not be set with setq and tag them up. (There aren't a > lot of these.) > You mean, adding something like a :set-with-customize tag to those variables? Do you have an example of a variable with a :set for which it isn't problematic to use setq, and an example for which it is? I tried to find the problematic example you mentioned in the manual, but did not find it. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 13:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, Richard Stallman Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163119302920586 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 13:11:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2021 13:10:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34408 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOJoz-0005Ly-63 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 09:10:29 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:42810) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOJow-0005Lf-AX for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 09:10:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=FclY+3fycugODS4zDuyYumEB+gjtgWo/0SMHBcmWIY0=; b=LBTocXY1x13ProzCssNBq+rRQB mMlq0KkHrnojll7ornyWLDrR36D2HAv9w+gbWW7Uwf3MK4wa7RMVa4w5l4inr9/L9r0Ydv+KLKY+o RL2vOL4k+SvMBrTxUF5CWOYrJ9kB8tmRAmoE5UZtoQXSL+KcK6lHsUAuYLxSeeUl2WUw=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mOJom-00079Z-72; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 15:10:19 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 15:10:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Gregory Heytings's message of "Thu, 09 Sep 2021 13:04:02 +0000") Message-ID: <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Gregory Heytings writes: > Do you have an example of a variable with a :set for which it isn't > problematic to use setq, and an example for which it is? Do you mean after loading/starting the package? I guess most of them are problematic after loading, like (at random) vcursor-key-bindings. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Gregory Heytings writes: > Do you have an example of a variable with a :set for which it isn't > problematic to use setq, and an example for which it is? Do you mean after loading/starting the package? I guess most of them are problematic after loading, like (at random) vcursor-key-bindings. Most variable that's autoloaded and has a :set can probably be set safely with setq (before loading the .el file). -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:28:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, Richard Stallman Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163119767423119 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:28:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2021 14:27:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35881 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOL1u-00060p-K3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 10:27:54 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:53738) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOL1r-00060g-E9 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 10:27:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631197670; bh=eYK4C2wWKijUHrbpLPKM7g8fcZsE30+A9RnZw/UNn7c=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=tYezqW4o448jLEaG+/rehB7t0PONLiMofWSDN6srBLZX45LH897YgOdhXiONIemYP GiPZVEwwZD1358oVdC3EeSCEnoGRXpHFD7Ee9dEelotsUap4ZsbT9OU+USdwyc4och 4vLkQE8xVH5bDcFCbkRpbXC3W7ioE6CSo5Dh/jM8yW4ZiofdYvrLUr589W8SjMrHeh 3W7dFlivmViMsHHxAzuvnNeD8zfXap9d96wEqGL8DeXtdgswCO9QtJxSTfq7+Ao5nA 6QUoD+tnr7nAA80I8mh4qKgW6lFL+MlrLQOQJiznoIUwg+TO7VPwLyM4eazKeDGoeR 3pEtUyT01VUVw== Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:27:50 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> Do you have an example of a variable with a :set for which it isn't >> problematic to use setq, and an example for which it is? > > Do you mean after loading/starting the package? I guess most of them > are problematic after loading, like (at random) vcursor-key-bindings. > > Most variable that's autoloaded and has a :set can probably be set > safely with setq (before loading the .el file). > Then I still don't get what you mean. An autoloaded but not yet loaded variable doesn't have its custom-set property set, so in that case there would be no warning with the proposed patch. Warnings are displayed only for customs variables that are "fully" loaded, and who have a :set property. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 03:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163124529920878 (code B ref 21695); Fri, 10 Sep 2021 03:42:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Sep 2021 03:41:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36599 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOXQ2-0005Qg-VH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:41:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:38750) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOXQ0-0005QT-W2 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:41:37 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58310) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mOXPv-0002lN-K8; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:41:31 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mOXPt-0005uf-8J; Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:41:31 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: (message from Gregory Heytings on Thu, 09 Sep 2021 12:40:50 +0000) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2021 23:41:29 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > That's not an autoloaded variable (well, minor mode), so Emacs doesn't > > know that it has a :set when .emacs is loaded. > > > Oh, I see. You mean that setq'ing autoloaded variables, which are loaded > before their .el files is loaded, can usually be setq'd, disregarding > their :set property. But I don't see how one could distinguish between > those for which it is problematic and those for which is isn't. Please see the solution I proposed in the past few days. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:16:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, Richard Stallman Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163126894829011 (code B ref 21695); Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:16:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Sep 2021 10:15:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36909 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOdZU-0007Xq-6G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 06:15:48 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:53012) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOdZS-0007Xc-Mt for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 06:15:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=YPCqHuYJjD0hZpXsfLpYIX3TOoMvTI5WQNUpMRgt73Q=; b=Qyc2g5O/tgLab0bExuzvdi342E 3SNMIaYJmi6rYIry3MSFOlV7ANFtZUmDgACIjtFxA72oWSe8Yh0vkgyEtr63WaEy1S95SfR/MC1/V +7GbGWHdZKcRUwbDIGqWZEyTffKBpbwoRCEmHpNqVu8iuvxp4UeF7Mxw2tCRbLDJRcP4=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mOdZI-0002ZO-Iu; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 12:15:38 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 12:15:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Gregory Heytings's message of "Thu, 09 Sep 2021 14:27:50 +0000") Message-ID: <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Gregory Heytings writes: > Then I still don't get what you mean. An autoloaded but not yet > loaded variable doesn't have its custom-set property set, so in that > case there would be no warning with the proposed patch. Warni [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Gregory Heytings writes: > Then I still don't get what you mean. An autoloaded but not yet > loaded variable doesn't have its custom-set property set, so in that > case there would be no warning with the proposed patch. Warnings are > displayed only for customs variables that are "fully" loaded, and who > have a :set property. Doesn't ;;;###autoload pull the entire defcustom form into loaddefs.el? But I see that we autoload basically no defcustoms (five, apparently), so I guess it's a moot point. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:50:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Richard Stallman , larsi@gnus.org Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163128175328802 (code B ref 21695); Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:50:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Sep 2021 13:49:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37289 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOgu1-0007UU-AK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:49:13 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:55066) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOgtz-0007UJ-1b for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 09:49:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631281749; bh=ZKQOLkMenl2CUq0l24LGaosMRqqxs/mLo7pAWDiW/GU=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=YrehL6kuTA3u/AlPc56VkWgXkaOmRkF6zUs9w1x6ENat9L8AYU8wI+yoOeu5Zy5gS wpEhSr4yZ4gOksOwqZuzfFyzKYv8799qwhOvg3VVUTEmg2q9dq/kmF7A3XBpSsYSx0 nG8Z48cB6PRxYBAP4OFu7Hm3IcGr70bINlaeQ77eHqFa/y3Dud7IoCxV45OQpJ+Ykt s2CaZsKSRRBnHLeGWtg5EPMhaD5nqdD/vmietOsd65cGvGfdy3SRZcqg6YvVDM3jCY lRa7RPR/l9QlVYkdGnLYGqqPepp4muDOu1gKdPnQwCOX5hAJtmXac8MvKcRdJl5FGD C8MEyIiOyuX5w== Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:49:07 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="w4VIE1SyWO" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --w4VIE1SyWO Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii > > Please see the solution I proposed in the past few days. > The solution you proposed is not optimal I think, in particular because variables can also be set interactively, e.g. with M-: or C-x C-e, so checking that they have been set correctly after loading the init file is not enough. The proposed (two lines!) patch works in all cases. Its commit message was perhaps not clear enough, so I made it longer to make it (hopefully) crystal clear that it does TRT: there are no warnings for preloaded variables whose files are loaded after those variables have been setq'd. --w4VIE1SyWO Content-Type: text/x-diff; name=Warn-when-custom-variable-is-wrongly-set.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Warn-when-custom-variable-is-wrongly-set.patch RnJvbSBiNzRlOWRmY2Y5YzY3NDU1MjIzYjJhM2JlOTk2OTI2NjliM2I1MjA1 IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQ0KRnJvbTogR3JlZ29yeSBIZXl0 aW5ncyA8Z3JlZ29yeUBoZXl0aW5ncy5vcmc+DQpEYXRlOiBGcmksIDEwIFNl cCAyMDIxIDEzOjM1OjUwICswMDAwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIFdhcm4g d2hlbiBjdXN0b20gdmFyaWFibGUgaXMgd3JvbmdseSBzZXQuDQoNCiogc3Jj L2V2YWwuYyAoRnNldHEpOiBEaXNwbGF5IHdhcm5pbmcgd2hlbiBhIGN1c3Rv bSB2YXJpYWJsZSB3aXRoIGEgOnNldA0KcHJvcGVydHkgaXMgc2V0IHdpdGgg c2V0cS4gIFdhcm5pbmdzIGFyZSBkaXNwbGF5ZWQgb25seSBmb3IgY3VzdG9t IHZhcmlhYmxlcw0Kd2hvc2UgZmlsZXMgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGxvYWRlZCBhbmQg dGhhdCBoYXZlIGEgOnNldCBwcm9wZXJ0eS4gIE5vIHdhcm5pbmdzIGFyZQ0K ZGlzcGxheWVkIGZvciBjdXN0b20gdmFyaWFibGVzIHdob3NlIGZpbGVzIGhh dmUgbWVyZWx5IGJlZW4gcHJlbG9hZGVkLA0KZm9yIGN1c3RvbSB2YXJpYWJs ZXMgdGhhdCBkbyBub3QgaGF2ZSBhIDpzZXQgcHJvcGVydHksIGFuZCBmb3Ig bm9uLWN1c3RvbQ0KdmFyaWFibGVzLiAgU2VlIGJ1ZyMyMTY5NS4NCi0tLQ0K IHNyYy9ldmFsLmMgfCA5ICsrKysrKysrLQ0KIDEgZmlsZSBjaGFuZ2VkLCA4 IGluc2VydGlvbnMoKyksIDEgZGVsZXRpb24oLSkNCg0KZGlmZiAtLWdpdCBh L3NyYy9ldmFsLmMgYi9zcmMvZXZhbC5jDQppbmRleCA0ODEwNGJkMGY0Li4x NjhhNzc0OWEwIDEwMDY0NA0KLS0tIGEvc3JjL2V2YWwuYw0KKysrIGIvc3Jj L2V2YWwuYw0KQEAgLTUyNSw4ICs1MjUsMTUgQEAgREVGVU4gKCJzZXRxIiwg RnNldHEsIFNzZXRxLCAwLCBVTkVWQUxMRUQsIDAsDQogCSAgIDogUW5pbCk7 DQogICAgICAgaWYgKCFOSUxQIChsZXhfYmluZGluZykpDQogCVhTRVRDRFIg KGxleF9iaW5kaW5nLCB2YWwpOyAvKiBTWU0gaXMgbGV4aWNhbGx5IGJvdW5k LiAgKi8NCi0gICAgICBlbHNlDQorICAgICAgZWxzZSB7DQorCWlmICghTklM UCAoRmdldCAoc3ltLCBpbnRlcm4gKCJjdXN0b20tc2V0IikpKSkNCisJICBj YWxsMiAoaW50ZXJuICgiZGlzcGxheS13YXJuaW5nIiksIGludGVybiAoInNl dHEiKSwNCisJCSBDQUxMTiAoRmZvcm1hdCwNCisJCQlidWlsZF9zdHJpbmcN CisJCQkoImAlcycgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHNldCB3aXRoIGBjdXN0b21pemUtc2V0 LXZhcmlhYmxlJyIpLA0KKwkJCXN5bSkpOw0KIAlGc2V0IChzeW0sIHZhbCk7 CS8qIFNZTSBpcyBkeW5hbWljYWxseSBib3VuZC4gICovDQorICAgICAgfQ0K ICAgICB9DQogDQogICByZXR1cm4gdmFsOw0KLS0gDQoyLjMzLjANCg0K --w4VIE1SyWO-- From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:27:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, Richard Stallman Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16312839991574 (code B ref 21695); Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:27:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Sep 2021 14:26:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38922 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOhUF-0000PJ-8U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:26:39 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:55116) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mOhUD-0000PB-42 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2021 10:26:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631283996; bh=cmMLm/+QJ6l7R6Nl2SzXfI313+aJRegazpSq2ln9hu0=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=ATlTdU4nLVozP8bOAUDldI/pw0sOOrtgkovmX4FCZh4s2Guv3GBd0nwfrMpXD0so9 qZFyEbPUDXnDyx5wG2GVcNJSMBQTnbdNoW5zelDjDC7iuoeSs5ttGaHIeCMU5eEgjV o3ovZWAKJIt1eUEEZcC3dN3r0+YECdLVOX3Or80tRAdmAtbMF34DdSF0VaH/PLzOyc 4ijRjR08pyslHoj540z2/BheO8+lArcx9ukw87F/ntBE8iQ7p7PgXNCvt9FepfkEc2 N2XaNsvYV2EcWy0tcj9eA5oAbC51wiDWJGrMBbcwTxvAfjI/zKWhD3sEN8Lzq8tixe TVcUuhfkXSoWA== Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:26:35 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> Then I still don't get what you mean. An autoloaded but not yet loaded >> variable doesn't have its custom-set property set, so in that case >> there would be no warning with the proposed patch. Warnings are >> displayed only for customs variables that are "fully" loaded, and who >> have a :set property. > > Doesn't ;;;###autoload pull the entire defcustom form into loaddefs.el? > > But I see that we autoload basically no defcustoms (five, apparently), > so I guess it's a moot point. > One of them is allout-auto-activation. To see that autoloaded variables do not have a custom-set property until they are actually loaded, you can use: (defmacro check (sym) `(when (get ,sym 'custom-set) (display-warning 'setq (format "`%s' should be set with `customize-set-variable'" ,sym)))) (check 'allout-auto-activation) (load "allout") (check 'allout-auto-activation) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 08:24:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, Richard Stallman Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163143498620249 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 12 Sep 2021 08:24:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Sep 2021 08:23:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41989 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPKlW-0005GX-FW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 04:23:06 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:57128) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPKlU-0005GO-5b for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 04:23:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631434982; bh=tCcSH+6DPe0uAVZrClpwQg1QN7Ez+tZ9fPFZg5+qGFA=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=UMFkAbKTGbu6O+U8XtwO+pAYcqM/hZ90emNrcMvK/gmR1xBaCxD/XiLiRoVekl05d 9ss7bo9692Csgn2ad1hSuZzgOKgEGTTLFz26E03Us7MbXsCUu4/32Z6Y83iugL98+O EzoWBKLFQ4mGjiIemSD9uKt1q95l77mYFXovhB9AdthAmbu5IaOoiTopPopNMZToli Iy6gazF4RM940AKm0mugb8hY1yGV35tFSuE8lodh+zB2nvV1i7tKPpr4nE/CvwSAMY X14H/LRknpbzWB2HMzZZuWpEnUmYf1Jpzd4IcQimRVF3fprat6X9/NPzonITda14re Nm/I29T9+W2ww== Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 08:23:01 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="77OtGBLtxR" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --77OtGBLtxR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed I updated the patch with some documentation. Is there any chance that it gets applied? --77OtGBLtxR Content-Type: text/x-diff; name=Warn-when-custom-variable-is-wrongly-set.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <0d48a230843c48bfd293@heytings.org> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Warn-when-custom-variable-is-wrongly-set.patch RnJvbSBlYTllZWI2NWQ2NTE0YzExYWU5ZDBhYzVjNGZhZDM2MjEzZTMwM2Y5 IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQ0KRnJvbTogR3JlZ29yeSBIZXl0 aW5ncyA8Z3JlZ29yeUBoZXl0aW5ncy5vcmc+DQpEYXRlOiBTdW4sIDEyIFNl cCAyMDIxIDA4OjE5OjI1ICswMDAwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIFdhcm4g d2hlbiBjdXN0b20gdmFyaWFibGUgaXMgd3JvbmdseSBzZXQuDQoNCiogc3Jj L2V2YWwuYyAoRnNldHEpOiBEaXNwbGF5IHdhcm5pbmcgd2hlbiBhIGN1c3Rv bSB2YXJpYWJsZSB3aXRoIGEgOnNldA0KcHJvcGVydHkgaXMgc2V0IHdpdGgg c2V0cS4gIFdhcm5pbmdzIGFyZSBkaXNwbGF5ZWQgb25seSBmb3IgY3VzdG9t IHZhcmlhYmxlcw0Kd2hvc2UgZmlsZXMgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGxvYWRlZCBhbmQg dGhhdCBoYXZlIGEgOnNldCBwcm9wZXJ0eS4gIE5vIHdhcm5pbmdzIGFyZQ0K ZGlzcGxheWVkIGZvciBjdXN0b20gdmFyaWFibGVzIHdob3NlIGZpbGVzIGhh dmUgbWVyZWx5IGJlZW4gcHJlbG9hZGVkLA0KZm9yIGN1c3RvbSB2YXJpYWJs ZXMgdGhhdCBkbyBub3QgaGF2ZSBhIDpzZXQgcHJvcGVydHksIGFuZCBmb3Ig bm9uLWN1c3RvbQ0KdmFyaWFibGVzLiAgU2VlIGJ1ZyMyMTY5NS4NCg0KKiBl dGMvTkVXUzogRG9jdW1lbnQgdGhlIHdhcm5pbmcuDQoNCiogZG9jL2VtYWNz L2N1c3RvbS50ZXhpOiBNZW50aW9uIHRoZSB3YXJuaW5nLg0KLS0tDQogZG9j L2VtYWNzL2N1c3RvbS50ZXhpIHwgMyArKy0NCiBldGMvTkVXUyAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgfCA2ICsrKysrKw0KIHNyYy9ldmFsLmMgICAgICAgICAgICB8IDkg KysrKysrKystDQogMyBmaWxlcyBjaGFuZ2VkLCAxNiBpbnNlcnRpb25zKCsp LCAyIGRlbGV0aW9ucygtKQ0KDQpkaWZmIC0tZ2l0IGEvZG9jL2VtYWNzL2N1 c3RvbS50ZXhpIGIvZG9jL2VtYWNzL2N1c3RvbS50ZXhpDQppbmRleCA5MjIw YTIwNzhmLi4xYjdlN2Q5MzYxIDEwMDY0NA0KLS0tIGEvZG9jL2VtYWNzL2N1 c3RvbS50ZXhpDQorKysgYi9kb2MvZW1hY3MvY3VzdG9tLnRleGkNCkBAIC0y Mzc4LDcgKzIzNzgsOCBAQCBkbyB0aGF0OyB0byBlbmFibGUgdGhlIG1vZGUg aW4geW91ciBpbml0IGZpbGUsIGNhbGwgdGhlIG1pbm9yIG1vZGUNCiBjb21t YW5kLiAgRmluYWxseSwgYSBmZXcgY3VzdG9taXphYmxlIHVzZXIgb3B0aW9u cyBhcmUgaW5pdGlhbGl6ZWQgaW4NCiBjb21wbGV4IHdheXMsIGFuZCB0aGVz ZSBoYXZlIHRvIGJlIHNldCBlaXRoZXIgdmlhIHRoZSBjdXN0b21pemUNCiBp bnRlcmZhY2UgKEBweHJlZntDdXN0b21pemF0aW9ufSkgb3IgYnkgdXNpbmcN Ci1AY29kZXtjdXN0b21pemUtc2V0LXZhcmlhYmxlfSAoQHB4cmVme0V4YW1p bmluZ30pLg0KK0Bjb2Rle2N1c3RvbWl6ZS1zZXQtdmFyaWFibGV9IChAcHhy ZWZ7RXhhbWluaW5nfSkuICBJZiBzdWNoIG9wdGlvbnMNCithcmUgaW5hZHZl cnRlbnRseSBzZXQgd2l0aCBAY29kZXtzZXRxfSwgYSB3YXJuaW5nIGlzIGRp c3BsYXllZC4NCiANCiAgIFRoZSBzZWNvbmQgYXJndW1lbnQgdG8gQGNvZGV7 c2V0cX0gaXMgYW4gZXhwcmVzc2lvbiBmb3IgdGhlIG5ldw0KIHZhbHVlIG9m IHRoZSB2YXJpYWJsZS4gIFRoaXMgY2FuIGJlIGEgY29uc3RhbnQsIGEgdmFy aWFibGUsIG9yIGENCmRpZmYgLS1naXQgYS9ldGMvTkVXUyBiL2V0Yy9ORVdT DQppbmRleCBjYTI2OWFhYmFhLi5kZmRkOTI1ZWM1IDEwMDY0NA0KLS0tIGEv ZXRjL05FV1MNCisrKyBiL2V0Yy9ORVdTDQpAQCAtMzQwMSw2ICszNDAxLDEy IEBAIHRydW5jYXRpbmcgcHJlY2lzaW9uIGZpZWxkLCBzdWNoIGFzICIlLjJh Ii4NCiBTdWNoIG1peGVzIGFyZSBhbHdheXMgc2lnbnMgdGhhdCB0aGUgb3V0 ZXIgbGV4aWNhbCBiaW5kaW5nIHdhcyBhbg0KIGVycm9yIGFuZCBzaG91bGQg aGF2ZSB1c2VkIGR5bmFtaWMgYmluZGluZyBpbnN0ZWFkLg0KIA0KKy0tDQor KiogJ3NldHEnIGRpc3BsYXlzIGEgd2FybmluZyB3aGVuICdjdXN0b21pemUt c2V0LXZhcmlhYmxlJyBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHVzZWQuDQorU29tZSBj dXN0b20gdmFyaWFibGVzIG5lZWQgdG8gYmUgc2V0IHdpdGggJ2N1c3RvbWl6 ZS1zZXQtdmFyaWFibGUnLCBiZWNhdXNlDQordGhleSB3ZXJlIGRlc2lnbmVk IHRvIGJlIHNldCB0aHJvdWdoIHRoZSBDdXN0b21pemF0aW9uIGludGVyZmFj ZSBhbmQgaGF2ZSBhDQorOnNldCBsYW1iZGEgZm9ybSB3aGljaCBkb2VzIG90 aGVyIHRoaW5ncyBhZnRlciB0aGV5IGhhdmUgYmVlbiBzZXQuDQorDQogLS0t DQogKiogTmV3IHZhcmlhYmxlICdpbmhpYml0LW1vdXNlLWV2ZW50LWNoZWNr Jy4NCiBJZiBib3VuZCB0byBub24tbmlsLCBhIGNvbW1hbmQgd2l0aCAnKGlu dGVyYWN0aXZlICJlIiknIGRvZXNuJ3Qgc2lnbmFsDQpkaWZmIC0tZ2l0IGEv c3JjL2V2YWwuYyBiL3NyYy9ldmFsLmMNCmluZGV4IDQ4MTA0YmQwZjQuLjE2 OGE3NzQ5YTAgMTAwNjQ0DQotLS0gYS9zcmMvZXZhbC5jDQorKysgYi9zcmMv ZXZhbC5jDQpAQCAtNTI1LDggKzUyNSwxNSBAQCB1c2FnZTogKHNldHEgW1NZ TSBWQUxdLi4uKSAgKi8pDQogCSAgIDogUW5pbCk7DQogICAgICAgaWYgKCFO SUxQIChsZXhfYmluZGluZykpDQogCVhTRVRDRFIgKGxleF9iaW5kaW5nLCB2 YWwpOyAvKiBTWU0gaXMgbGV4aWNhbGx5IGJvdW5kLiAgKi8NCi0gICAgICBl bHNlDQorICAgICAgZWxzZSB7DQorCWlmICghTklMUCAoRmdldCAoc3ltLCBp bnRlcm4gKCJjdXN0b20tc2V0IikpKSkNCisJICBjYWxsMiAoaW50ZXJuICgi ZGlzcGxheS13YXJuaW5nIiksIGludGVybiAoInNldHEiKSwNCisJCSBDQUxM TiAoRmZvcm1hdCwNCisJCQlidWlsZF9zdHJpbmcNCisJCQkoImAlcycgc2hv dWxkIGJlIHNldCB3aXRoIGBjdXN0b21pemUtc2V0LXZhcmlhYmxlJyIpLA0K KwkJCXN5bSkpOw0KIAlGc2V0IChzeW0sIHZhbCk7CS8qIFNZTSBpcyBkeW5h bWljYWxseSBib3VuZC4gICovDQorICAgICAgfQ0KICAgICB9DQogDQogICBy ZXR1cm4gdmFsOw0KLS0gDQoyLjMzLjANCg0K --77OtGBLtxR-- From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 08:59:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163143710023810 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 12 Sep 2021 08:59:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Sep 2021 08:58:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42041 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPLJc-0006Bx-2L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 04:58:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52358) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPLJZ-0006Bh-Fr for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 04:58:18 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:53956) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPLJT-0000LE-Iq; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 04:58:11 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3312 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPLJK-00058O-Oj; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 04:58:03 -0400 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 11:57:50 +0300 Message-Id: <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> (message from Gregory Heytings on Sun, 12 Sep 2021 08:23:01 +0000) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 08:23:01 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings > Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, Richard Stallman > > +-- > +** 'setq' displays a warning when 'customize-set-variable' should have been used. > +Some custom variables need to be set with 'customize-set-variable', because > +they were designed to be set through the Customization interface and have a > +:set lambda form which does other things after they have been set. I thought the conclusion was that most variables with :set can be safely set by setq, isn't that so? If so, these warnings will mostly annoy. > --- a/src/eval.c > +++ b/src/eval.c > @@ -525,8 +525,15 @@ usage: (setq [SYM VAL]...) */) > : Qnil); > if (!NILP (lex_binding)) > XSETCDR (lex_binding, val); /* SYM is lexically bound. */ > - else > + else { > + if (!NILP (Fget (sym, intern ("custom-set")))) > + call2 (intern ("display-warning"), intern ("setq"), > + CALLN (Fformat, > + build_string > + ("`%s' should be set with `customize-set-variable'"), > + sym)); > Fset (sym, val); /* SYM is dynamically bound. */ > + } What will happen if setq is in the user's init file? We generally delay warnings until after the startup in those cases. Also, warnings.el is not preloaded, so this call could barf in some valid cases. OTOH, setq is a primitive written in C, so ther should be no need to call intern for it. And finally, do we really want to slow down each setq by calling intern and Fget? setq is many times used inside tight loops. I'm not sure the resulting run-time penalty is justified. Did you measure the effect of this on performance? From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:31:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163143902826906 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:31:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Sep 2021 09:30:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42076 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPLoi-0006zu-Eh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 05:30:28 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:57206) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPLoc-0006zh-Vc for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 05:30:27 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631439021; bh=J3rEooXDCoMHfn9FKPMk036gtpx8An7F2pZnJVEcy6M=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=lQ/VearNQ+kgTdqT70HN9I3PcNWctaFvDVLLxI1KzhduxGSaYA4z13aSzcdlvda2r yKPSPyoBVpUQXl9DS8Gfvp2dsukbv8V8LUQCubaULlU8K1iGIROPF8yesMfTj8uuvH /qI33fmgqCUmajpjyLtjOGAQ3S5WL7L/IpYYoTLnNnG0cVW7KwNkL0Dhb1LiVdXYeC WuVnDln7MVKXC60iprXMngyTXeDmixjBoes13ZSe1vgVY9LZcKd2n2KHd5+1Jz6Hhp 2XqRbYtPwm8L30D8IQNDqFZlES8JU+XHST7d0Fi43vGaFFTFDsj1zD+LQr0xRYYgEs sVUJwBS7ULHIA== Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:30:21 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="qvN2IHJ05n" Content-ID: <0d48a230842bb9c9034e@heytings.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --qvN2IHJ05n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-ID: <0d48a23084dfdc35b532@heytings.org> >> +** 'setq' displays a warning when 'customize-set-variable' should have been used. >> +Some custom variables need to be set with 'customize-set-variable', because >> +they were designed to be set through the Customization interface and have a >> +:set lambda form which does other things after they have been set. > > I thought the conclusion was that most variables with :set can be safely > set by setq, isn't that so? If so, these warnings will mostly annoy. > No, that wasn't the conclusion. Most variable with :set can safely be set by setq *before* the file in which they are declared is loaded. And no warnings are displayed in that case. But all variables with :set cannot be safely be set by setq *after* the file in which they are declared has been loaded. And warnings are displayed in that case. > > What will happen if setq is in the user's init file? We generally delay > warnings until after the startup in those cases. > With the following .emacs: (require 'allout) (setq allout-auto-activation t) a warning is displayed, but I don't know if this is during of after the startup. At least it is visible when startup has completed. > > Also, warnings.el is not preloaded, so this call could barf in some > valid cases. > That's not what I see: ;;;###autoload (defun display-warning (type message &optional level buffer-name) > > OTOH, setq is a primitive written in C, so ther should be no need to > call intern for it. > Okay, updated patch attached. > > And finally, do we really want to slow down each setq by calling intern > and Fget? setq is many times used inside tight loops. I'm not sure the > resulting run-time penalty is justified. Did you measure the effect of > this on performance? > With the updated patch, on my laptop, the execution of setq takes ~48 nanoseconds instead of ~40 nanoseconds. Which seems reasonable. --qvN2IHJ05n Content-Type: text/x-diff; name=Warn-when-custom-variable-is-wrongly-set.patch; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <0d48a23084da18d01d42@heytings.org> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Warn-when-custom-variable-is-wrongly-set.patch RnJvbSA3MjNlODNiMjBmMDc3ZWUzNmU4Nzg0YjcxMDFiNGUyMGFjZTY0OGY5 IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQ0KRnJvbTogR3JlZ29yeSBIZXl0 aW5ncyA8Z3JlZ29yeUBoZXl0aW5ncy5vcmc+DQpEYXRlOiBTdW4sIDEyIFNl cCAyMDIxIDA5OjIyOjEzICswMDAwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIFdhcm4g d2hlbiBjdXN0b20gdmFyaWFibGUgaXMgd3JvbmdseSBzZXQuDQoNCiogc3Jj L2V2YWwuYyAoRnNldHEpOiBEaXNwbGF5IHdhcm5pbmcgd2hlbiBhIGN1c3Rv bSB2YXJpYWJsZSB3aXRoIGEgOnNldA0KcHJvcGVydHkgaXMgc2V0IHdpdGgg c2V0cS4gIFdhcm5pbmdzIGFyZSBkaXNwbGF5ZWQgb25seSBmb3IgY3VzdG9t IHZhcmlhYmxlcw0Kd2hvc2UgZmlsZXMgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGxvYWRlZCBhbmQg dGhhdCBoYXZlIGEgOnNldCBwcm9wZXJ0eS4gIE5vIHdhcm5pbmdzIGFyZQ0K ZGlzcGxheWVkIGZvciBjdXN0b20gdmFyaWFibGVzIHdob3NlIGZpbGVzIGhh dmUgbWVyZWx5IGJlZW4gcHJlbG9hZGVkLA0KZm9yIGN1c3RvbSB2YXJpYWJs ZXMgdGhhdCBkbyBub3QgaGF2ZSBhIDpzZXQgcHJvcGVydHksIGFuZCBmb3Ig bm9uLWN1c3RvbQ0KdmFyaWFibGVzLiAgU2VlIGJ1ZyMyMTY5NS4NCihzeW1z X29mX2V2YWwpOiBUaHJlZSBuZXcgc3ltYm9scy4NCg0KKiBldGMvTkVXUzog RG9jdW1lbnQgdGhlIHdhcm5pbmcuDQoNCiogZG9jL2VtYWNzL2N1c3RvbS50 ZXhpOiBNZW50aW9uIHRoZSB3YXJuaW5nLg0KLS0tDQogZG9jL2VtYWNzL2N1 c3RvbS50ZXhpIHwgIDMgKystDQogZXRjL05FV1MgICAgICAgICAgICAgIHwg IDYgKysrKysrDQogc3JjL2V2YWwuYyAgICAgICAgICAgIHwgMTIgKysrKysr KysrKystDQogMyBmaWxlcyBjaGFuZ2VkLCAxOSBpbnNlcnRpb25zKCspLCAy IGRlbGV0aW9ucygtKQ0KDQpkaWZmIC0tZ2l0IGEvZG9jL2VtYWNzL2N1c3Rv bS50ZXhpIGIvZG9jL2VtYWNzL2N1c3RvbS50ZXhpDQppbmRleCA5MjIwYTIw NzhmLi4xYjdlN2Q5MzYxIDEwMDY0NA0KLS0tIGEvZG9jL2VtYWNzL2N1c3Rv bS50ZXhpDQorKysgYi9kb2MvZW1hY3MvY3VzdG9tLnRleGkNCkBAIC0yMzc4 LDcgKzIzNzgsOCBAQCBJbml0IFN5bnRheA0KIGNvbW1hbmQuICBGaW5hbGx5 LCBhIGZldyBjdXN0b21pemFibGUgdXNlciBvcHRpb25zIGFyZSBpbml0aWFs aXplZCBpbg0KIGNvbXBsZXggd2F5cywgYW5kIHRoZXNlIGhhdmUgdG8gYmUg c2V0IGVpdGhlciB2aWEgdGhlIGN1c3RvbWl6ZQ0KIGludGVyZmFjZSAoQHB4 cmVme0N1c3RvbWl6YXRpb259KSBvciBieSB1c2luZw0KLUBjb2Rle2N1c3Rv bWl6ZS1zZXQtdmFyaWFibGV9IChAcHhyZWZ7RXhhbWluaW5nfSkuDQorQGNv ZGV7Y3VzdG9taXplLXNldC12YXJpYWJsZX0gKEBweHJlZntFeGFtaW5pbmd9 KS4gIElmIHN1Y2ggb3B0aW9ucw0KK2FyZSBpbmFkdmVydGVudGx5IHNldCB3 aXRoIEBjb2Rle3NldHF9LCBhIHdhcm5pbmcgaXMgZGlzcGxheWVkLg0KIA0K ICAgVGhlIHNlY29uZCBhcmd1bWVudCB0byBAY29kZXtzZXRxfSBpcyBhbiBl eHByZXNzaW9uIGZvciB0aGUgbmV3DQogdmFsdWUgb2YgdGhlIHZhcmlhYmxl LiAgVGhpcyBjYW4gYmUgYSBjb25zdGFudCwgYSB2YXJpYWJsZSwgb3IgYQ0K ZGlmZiAtLWdpdCBhL2V0Yy9ORVdTIGIvZXRjL05FV1MNCmluZGV4IGNhMjY5 YWFiYWEuLmRmZGQ5MjVlYzUgMTAwNjQ0DQotLS0gYS9ldGMvTkVXUw0KKysr IGIvZXRjL05FV1MNCkBAIC0zNDAxLDYgKzM0MDEsMTIgQEAgdHJ1bmNhdGlu ZyBwcmVjaXNpb24gZmllbGQsIHN1Y2ggYXMgIiUuMmEiLg0KIFN1Y2ggbWl4 ZXMgYXJlIGFsd2F5cyBzaWducyB0aGF0IHRoZSBvdXRlciBsZXhpY2FsIGJp bmRpbmcgd2FzIGFuDQogZXJyb3IgYW5kIHNob3VsZCBoYXZlIHVzZWQgZHlu YW1pYyBiaW5kaW5nIGluc3RlYWQuDQogDQorLS0NCisqKiAnc2V0cScgZGlz cGxheXMgYSB3YXJuaW5nIHdoZW4gJ2N1c3RvbWl6ZS1zZXQtdmFyaWFibGUn IHNob3VsZCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gdXNlZC4NCitTb21lIGN1c3RvbSB2YXJpYWJs ZXMgbmVlZCB0byBiZSBzZXQgd2l0aCAnY3VzdG9taXplLXNldC12YXJpYWJs ZScsIGJlY2F1c2UNCit0aGV5IHdlcmUgZGVzaWduZWQgdG8gYmUgc2V0IHRo cm91Z2ggdGhlIEN1c3RvbWl6YXRpb24gaW50ZXJmYWNlIGFuZCBoYXZlIGEN Cis6c2V0IGxhbWJkYSBmb3JtIHdoaWNoIGRvZXMgb3RoZXIgdGhpbmdzIGFm dGVyIHRoZXkgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHNldC4NCisNCiAtLS0NCiAqKiBOZXcgdmFy aWFibGUgJ2luaGliaXQtbW91c2UtZXZlbnQtY2hlY2snLg0KIElmIGJvdW5k IHRvIG5vbi1uaWwsIGEgY29tbWFuZCB3aXRoICcoaW50ZXJhY3RpdmUgImUi KScgZG9lc24ndCBzaWduYWwNCmRpZmYgLS1naXQgYS9zcmMvZXZhbC5jIGIv c3JjL2V2YWwuYw0KaW5kZXggNDgxMDRiZDBmNC4uODQ1MDBmN2MxYSAxMDA2 NDQNCi0tLSBhL3NyYy9ldmFsLmMNCisrKyBiL3NyYy9ldmFsLmMNCkBAIC01 MjUsOCArNTI1LDE1IEBAIERFRlVOICgic2V0cSIsIEZzZXRxLCBTc2V0cSwg MCwgVU5FVkFMTEVELCAwLA0KIAkgICA6IFFuaWwpOw0KICAgICAgIGlmICgh TklMUCAobGV4X2JpbmRpbmcpKQ0KIAlYU0VUQ0RSIChsZXhfYmluZGluZywg dmFsKTsgLyogU1lNIGlzIGxleGljYWxseSBib3VuZC4gICovDQotICAgICAg ZWxzZQ0KKyAgICAgIGVsc2Ugew0KKwlpZiAoIU5JTFAgKEZnZXQgKHN5bSwg UWN1c3RvbV9zZXQpKSkNCisJICBjYWxsMiAoUWRpc3BsYXlfd2FybmluZywg UXNldHEsDQorCQkgQ0FMTE4gKEZmb3JtYXQsDQorCQkJYnVpbGRfc3RyaW5n DQorCQkJKCJgJXMnIHNob3VsZCBiZSBzZXQgd2l0aCBgY3VzdG9taXplLXNl dC12YXJpYWJsZSciKSwNCisJCQlzeW0pKTsNCiAJRnNldCAoc3ltLCB2YWwp OwkvKiBTWU0gaXMgZHluYW1pY2FsbHkgYm91bmQuICAqLw0KKyAgICAgIH0N CiAgICAgfQ0KIA0KICAgcmV0dXJuIHZhbDsNCkBAIC00NTU2LDQgKzQ1NjMs NyBAQCBzeW1zX29mX2V2YWwgKHZvaWQpDQogICBkZWZzdWJyICgmU2JhY2t0 cmFjZV9fbG9jYWxzKTsNCiAgIGRlZnN1YnIgKCZTc3BlY2lhbF92YXJpYWJs ZV9wKTsNCiAgIGRlZnN1YnIgKCZTZnVuY3Rpb25wKTsNCisgIERFRlNZTSAo UWN1c3RvbV9zZXQsICJjdXN0b20tc2V0Iik7DQorICBERUZTWU0gKFFkaXNw bGF5X3dhcm5pbmcsICJkaXNwbGF5LXdhcm5pbmciKTsNCisgIERFRlNZTSAo UXNldHEsICJzZXRxIik7DQogfQ0KLS0gDQoyLjMzLjANCg0K --qvN2IHJ05n-- From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:39:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163143949727617 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:39:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Sep 2021 09:38:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42095 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPLwH-0007BN-0U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 05:38:17 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:57976) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPLwE-0007BA-Te for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 05:38:15 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54730) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPLw8-00012X-7v; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 05:38:08 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2084 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPLw1-0008Sm-W5; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 05:38:02 -0400 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 12:37:49 +0300 Message-Id: <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> (message from Gregory Heytings on Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:30:21 +0000) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:30:21 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings > cc: larsi@gnus.org, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org > > > What will happen if setq is in the user's init file? We generally delay > > warnings until after the startup in those cases. > > > > With the following .emacs: > > (require 'allout) > (setq allout-auto-activation t) > > a warning is displayed, but I don't know if this is during of after the > startup. At least it is visible when startup has completed. You need a much larger init file with several setq like this. The warnings usually fly by you without giving enough chance to read them. > > Also, warnings.el is not preloaded, so this call could barf in some > > valid cases. > > > > That's not what I see: > > ;;;###autoload > (defun display-warning (type message &optional level buffer-name) That's autoloaded, not preloaded; the latter is in loadup.el. > > And finally, do we really want to slow down each setq by calling intern > > and Fget? setq is many times used inside tight loops. I'm not sure the > > resulting run-time penalty is justified. Did you measure the effect of > > this on performance? > > > > With the updated patch, on my laptop, the execution of setq takes ~48 > nanoseconds instead of ~40 nanoseconds. Which seems reasonable. Is this multiplicative, i.e. if you perform it many times, does it indeed take 20% longer overall? If so, this is not an acceptable performance hit, I think, not for such a minor feature. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:55:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163144049629276 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:55:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Sep 2021 09:54:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42136 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPMCO-0007c8-46 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 05:54:56 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:57236) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPMCL-0007bz-Lw for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 05:54:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631440492; bh=PV6Xe4bke1HMT8YcJ+lj2FrTmRYZV33UdqicivibPlU=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=Sq+/SuS0sLvihZNDsSwi5V6R2C5NOIZ03M28/kfzK6v05tFlDOe5+76JseMOKHD/N V3chehwWqDVs4GkBg/XWa4kP3zDUB2/QyGxiVpXQM1LyyTLfRf8RijiO8JuK3froPd qnDGsEfN3JGv5J2/NnYud3OyK4eO4GwuSTNX5orUUVOkKeILvArMEQ/rIHcXg3vTxS HCgo+a8T82G5NEf+tjsYnwbHXA/XRZythcyb2T6F+P9a6jmtLq8YT8OVdZSa7TgvfF rmykVt6hA+WD9Y7srGX5dbhi410gnQbZBq4aW/AYwfJXiHSDvpWsIOAkyr2HI8Igri p41a048ZoX4gQ== Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:54:51 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="bOS22kyj8G" Content-ID: <0d48a23084dd251d65ef@heytings.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" --bOS22kyj8G Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-ID: <0d48a23084085758fb1c@heytings.org> >> I don't know if this is during of after the startup. At least it is >> visible when startup has completed. > > You need a much larger init file with several setq like this. The > warnings usually fly by you without giving enough chance to read them. > That's not what I see, after the startup has completed I see a *Warnings* buffer in the lower half of the frame. See attached screenshot. >>> Also, warnings.el is not preloaded, so this call could barf in some >>> valid cases. >> >> That's not what I see: >> >> ;;;###autoload >> (defun display-warning (type message &optional level buffer-name) > > That's autoloaded, not preloaded; the latter is in loadup.el. > Hmm, then I don't see what you mean. I did not know that there is a difference between "autoload" and "preload". > > Is this multiplicative, i.e. if you perform it many times, does it > indeed take 20% longer overall? If so, this is not an acceptable > performance hit, I think, not for such a minor feature. > The "(get sym 'custom-set)" call adds about ~8 nanoseconds to each call to setq. I don't see how this could be avoided, if the idea is to display a warning when setq is used when customize-set-variable should be used instead. Of course every new feature comes at a cost. Perhaps a new defcustom could be created, e.g. customize-warn-setq, defaulting to t, to make it possible to avoid that call to "(get sym 'custom-set)"? --bOS22kyj8G Content-Type: image/png; name=warnings.png Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <0d48a230840c0c2e9194@heytings.org> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=warnings.png iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAABXIAAAUmCAIAAAC0z9suAACAAElEQVR42uzd dXgbx7oH4JkV25ZRZuaQw9gkbbApM53iPWVmZkhSbtpTThlSZkohScPQkBNj zMwgZu3cP+S4ji3bsixp7eT33ue5x9kd7X47klzvtzPf0K1bt06dMpkAAAAA AAAAAAzFvv25nNAxAAAAAAAAAMBohbQCAAAAAAAAAHgIaQUAAAAAAAAA8BDS CgAAAAAAAADgIaQVAAAAAAAAAMBDSCsAAAAAAAAAgIeQVgAAAAAAAAAAD3kt rbDmi69mn7Bo/pJlg24cdW658+7ZJyy696FHjr5LG5Jj8JK9q7yy8tEnl592 7vlzFy2dfcKi2Scscjgczl0NjY3Ln3nurAsumrf4ROeultZWoeMdZY7iz+dR fGkAAAAAcBQQD9rir/UbHnly+QANJBLJlnV/CH0hQwjY6dfvv4kIDxc6WHc1 NjWt/eOvnbt3NzQ0arSaAEWASqWaNmXy0kULcyaMFzq60crlR4XjaIAiIC4u btqUSWefcUZSYoJXzlVWXnH1jTeZzZa+u5qam/977Q0arVbo/hgytUZz0hln 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Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 10:13:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163144154330916 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 12 Sep 2021 10:13:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Sep 2021 10:12:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42139 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPMTH-00082a-Gw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 06:12:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33732) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPMTF-00082N-NG for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 06:12:22 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55210) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPMT9-0004bP-SP; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 06:12:15 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4165 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPMT1-0000xB-10; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 06:12:07 -0400 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 13:11:52 +0300 Message-Id: <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> (message from Gregory Heytings on Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:54:51 +0000) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 09:54:51 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings > cc: larsi@gnus.org, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org > > >>> Also, warnings.el is not preloaded, so this call could barf in some > >>> valid cases. > >> > >> That's not what I see: > >> > >> ;;;###autoload > >> (defun display-warning (type message &optional level buffer-name) > > > > That's autoloaded, not preloaded; the latter is in loadup.el. > > > > Hmm, then I don't see what you mean. I did not know that there is a > difference between "autoload" and "preload". The difference is that while Emacs is being built, especially bootstrapped, calls to Lisp code that isn't preloaded by autoload.el could fail. So such calls need to be careful not to call a symbol if the call could fail, or at least use internal_condition_case* functions to protect themselves against failure. > > Is this multiplicative, i.e. if you perform it many times, does it > > indeed take 20% longer overall? If so, this is not an acceptable > > performance hit, I think, not for such a minor feature. > > > > The "(get sym 'custom-set)" call adds about ~8 nanoseconds to each call to > setq. I don't see how this could be avoided, if the idea is to display a > warning when setq is used when customize-set-variable should be used > instead. Of course every new feature comes at a cost. > > Perhaps a new defcustom could be created, e.g. customize-warn-setq, > defaulting to t, to make it possible to avoid that call to "(get sym > 'custom-set)"? Are we only doing this only for initializations in the init files? Then perhaps this could be enabled only until the startup is completed. Even then, some people will frown on 20% slowdown of the startup. Let's see what others think about this aspect. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 10:22:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: gregory@heytings.org Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163144208631754 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 12 Sep 2021 10:22:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Sep 2021 10:21:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42144 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPMc2-0008G6-Fj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 06:21:26 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34680) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPMc1-0008Fr-Pk for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 06:21:26 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55354) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPMbw-0003wq-H6; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 06:21:20 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4744 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPMbo-0007vd-6Z; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 06:21:12 -0400 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 13:21:03 +0300 Message-Id: <83bl4yf628.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sun, 12 Sep 2021 13:11:52 +0300) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 13:11:52 +0300 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org > > The difference is that while Emacs is being built, especially > bootstrapped, calls to Lisp code that isn't preloaded by autoload.el > could fail. So such calls need to be careful not to call a symbol if > the call could fail, or at least use internal_condition_case* > functions to protect themselves against failure. Basically, you should use safe_call and its ilk. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:27:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163148198414687 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:27:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Sep 2021 21:26:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43621 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPWzY-0003oo-8G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 17:26:24 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:57834) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPWzU-0003od-JQ for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 17:26:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631481979; bh=Ik3fxMmFNfnwp1sAbq/eLduGQ4RbJQ+9T1FeVoLqhgw=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=TxtqpC5uKtp7eybHofb/U30fgukDP+GKC9/zlg9eijlhJzkzW418KHHDM7mkEJk2I yi6yCNesrg4VXy/S6gA+oRwBbgWWvzxXLLEB2hZyCvm/XXjyErMytQDiJPsP579FnA /A8slVF96LZsMS+yveb8VdUY6Gqi26i8GjBywr7Q0TrCbrzrro2KTqXAkwQDrmBuvk T2mF88oFJyDWO89lMUOU1AoUCWASzYgrusgX4HPmzaDAi5r6PADIRPPUFGh+CpHlT+ 10vKPdDT66P/l/F0zg0VEcEBmXUb42Wgkr3cM2Ev17cLn3Iash3+awdD45DvxTXtOK K/QbW2AJH+AUA== Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:26:18 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <0d48a2308486fe146f77@heytings.org> References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Qe2reUK4Dh" Content-ID: <0d48a230848b283ed8c2@heytings.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --Qe2reUK4Dh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-ID: <0d48a230845f7baf35e5@heytings.org> >> The difference is that while Emacs is being built, especially >> bootstrapped, calls to Lisp code that isn't preloaded by autoload.el >> could fail. So such calls need to be careful not to call a symbol if >> the call could fail, or at least use internal_condition_case* functions >> to protect themselves against failure. > > Basically, you should use safe_call and its ilk. > Thank you for that clarification, done. > > Even then, some people will frown on 20% slowdown of the startup. > It is not a slowdown of the startup, it is a slowdown of setq, which becomes visible for the user when say 100 million setq's are executed. Anyway, given your remark, I improved the patch. With this optimized version, there is no noticeable difference for variables without a plist (~40 nanoseconds for each call to setq, with and without the patch), and a small difference for variables with a plist (~40 nanoseconds for each call to setq without the patch, ~42 nanoseconds with the patch). --Qe2reUK4Dh Content-Type: text/x-diff; name=Warn-when-custom-variable-is-wrongly-set.patch; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <0d48a23084f30cb35b7e@heytings.org> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Warn-when-custom-variable-is-wrongly-set.patch RnJvbSAxZjgxYWQ2YzEyZTQ0OTRjM2E2NDM0YjU1OTIzYTZlNGJlM2IzOGZi IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQ0KRnJvbTogR3JlZ29yeSBIZXl0 aW5ncyA8Z3JlZ29yeUBoZXl0aW5ncy5vcmc+DQpEYXRlOiBTdW4sIDEyIFNl cCAyMDIxIDIxOjEwOjA4ICswMDAwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIFdhcm4g d2hlbiBjdXN0b20gdmFyaWFibGUgaXMgd3JvbmdseSBzZXQuDQoNCiogc3Jj L2V2YWwuYyAoRnNldHEpOiBEaXNwbGF5IHdhcm5pbmcgd2hlbiBhIGN1c3Rv 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Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 22:12:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163148470827167 (code B ref 21695); Sun, 12 Sep 2021 22:12:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Sep 2021 22:11:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43654 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPXhU-000747-KJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 18:11:48 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:57882) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPXhT-000740-2p for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 18:11:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631484706; bh=6Qu8a5ZS4LbGotJJZW1Wlpnqg/XYYXsHZEVwt970A18=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=CU77EPTLAmHrE5YAiLyEACeU3XtXMSyM47JWHxCdCKESafwqK6xKNqNXI04keIaqB 0/VZDoDO4BaX2Sc2oCIOk5MByFjj3IbRcB0G9Eyfnlt1VB202Xc+P0LyzcJxEDPdVi Gt9otyP/GuVndrkmi3qsLq39zzwH0IzQe0J+DEzjWCd/w4EHz0ndtoHNtFXG6gcuHO pFTb/ZFY/NdjBQFSRDpPR204psmRBxs0kBksELwvItAaEAUSEtp9W3qcSFIb9mXe39 hbw0Mkj/IbA3XKtj/VvhQ2zjmu3Pr86QTVzQeB4NtDTwnyzFvPn9ZGrkIYVT1+7bfB tN+N3lQ7+k54g== Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 22:11:46 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <0d48a2308486fe146f77@heytings.org> Message-ID: <0d48a230842f0708159d@heytings.org> References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a2308486fe146f77@heytings.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > Anyway, given your remark, I improved the patch. With this optimized > version, there is no noticeable difference for variables without a plist > (~40 nanoseconds for each call to setq, with and without the patch), and > a small difference for variables with a plist (~40 nanoseconds for each > call to setq without the patch, ~42 nanoseconds with the patch). > Correction: it adds ~2 nanoseconds for each element in the plist. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 01:18:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163149584412460 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 01:18:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 01:17:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43724 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPab6-0003Et-G6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:17:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:57142) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPab3-0003Ef-Hv for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:17:24 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:46240) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPaax-0004Wk-IN; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:17:15 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPaax-0003Sk-Ed; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:17:15 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: (message from Gregory Heytings on Fri, 10 Sep 2021 14:26:35 +0000) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:17:15 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > >> Then I still don't get what you mean. An autoloaded but not yet loaded > >> variable doesn't have its custom-set property set, so in that case > >> there would be no warning with the proposed patch. Warnings are > >> displayed only for customs variables that are "fully" loaded, and who > >> have a :set property. This is not a problem. If at the end of the in it file the defcustom has not been executed then the setq of the variable will cause no trouble. Executing the defcustom will fix things up. If at the end of the in it file the defcustom HAS been executed, then the variable will be on all the lists it is supposed to be on, and the fix I proposed will DTRT with it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 01:18:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163149586712496 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 01:18:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 01:17:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43727 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPabS-0003FT-Ql for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:17:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:57246) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPabR-0003FG-1x for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:17:45 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:46250) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPabL-0004nB-T1; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:17:39 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPabL-0003W5-PU; Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:17:39 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: (message from Gregory Heytings on Fri, 10 Sep 2021 13:49:07 +0000) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:17:39 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > The solution you proposed is not optimal I think, in particular because > variables can also be set interactively, e.g. with M-: or C-x C-e, so > checking that they have been set correctly after loading the init file is > not enough. Yes they can, but why is there a problem? I don't see one. Could you spell out the scenario? > * src/eval.c (Fsetq): Display warning when a custom variable with a :set > property is set with setq. Warnings are displayed only for custom variables > whose files have been loaded and that have a :set property. That might be a good solution too. I'm not trying to argue that my solution is best. I'm only arguing against telling people to change their init files to replace `setq' with `customize-set-variable'. If your solution avoids that, I don't mind. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 07:05:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: Eli Zaretskii , hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163151666830136 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 07:05:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 07:04:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44022 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPg0y-0007q0-5F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 03:04:28 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:54732) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPg0t-0007pj-FC for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 03:04:27 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=xsgxDZpozE6X+Zxy93M6T1j7Tj0R48IoCJUEAwR5X9g=; b=mnxK/M+KBK6nd5g1LKGphRkFJZ BaoYzz0JDzAa3cRPtei0PdP2fKRiWROA6FdxiB6hFpXHZ6fOmQ5b/TumvUCk3itHCeBWsiisO7gi0 OByhD78EzBfQEIoWPltsVob8XLSwCyYyWae/Qlc/BMGNOXgb/1lfrpmFfhhadMGwY8mg=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mPg0j-0005kF-Ss; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:04:16 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a2308486fe146f77@heytings.org> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:04:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: <0d48a2308486fe146f77@heytings.org> (Gregory Heytings's message of "Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:26:18 +0000") Message-ID: <87a6khj6s5.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Gregory Heytings writes: > + if (!EQ (plist, Qnil) && !NILP (Fplist_get (plist, Qcustom_set))) > + safe_call2 (Qdisplay_warning, Qsetq, > + CALLN (Fformat, > + build_string > + ("`%s' should be set with `customize-set-variabl [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Gregory Heytings writes: > + if (!EQ (plist, Qnil) && !NILP (Fplist_get (plist, Qcustom_set))) > + safe_call2 (Qdisplay_warning, Qsetq, > + CALLN (Fformat, > + build_string > + ("`%s' should be set with `customize-set-variable'"), > + sym)); I haven't tried the patch, but won't this be triggered by the code that's handling the variables? For instance, `latin1-display' has a :set, but the file itself does `(setq latin1-display t)' etc. (This is a very common pattern.) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:04:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Gregory Heytings Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163152021611959 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:04:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 08:03:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44165 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPgwB-00036o-TQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 04:03:36 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:57633) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPgw0-00036F-8l for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 04:03:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1631520197; bh=hv28yE0LtJco1RQQiaT436WWmvLj2hoJQ5lEjlSOB7A=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=YOrqUoAZzb0crN8t2dW31WtV/11PMRaWO6GmzEVJcqA2+jXGVsB54KrJODHKg9TXv RQ+iZxd6S7Rz3dZobmXaRSk/32QgytuqFpuCrU1VyGAvRCdlc9ZxvJ7CKb1mdMIz4u fY/qBSPN52cWSs7DLrXU1bagxOJAzsiczSvgv3vE= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([212.95.5.129]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MtOGU-1nCqmB25qo-00unRV; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 10:03:17 +0200 References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> From: martin rudalics Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 10:03:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ipc0VxhTM37R9+++vQLkTxii9S8jyuo6AK+QSV2MdWVB951PVni Eu7s/Ot1EBzSfpiNNrm4RBhdjlsO3hd3XDn7YViixrNGXCc23MerWu0Dd85f3BCBbMVvI+M yGOwCdueHWnqJmccGhff+M7iECpnWA1hv3ldqG0HCE17P8zziZVCzbkTuhXwgJ6VwfrfxMH +46ImnnKOZPEasT8UIWiw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:sAbvDaIKyL8=:PrB4AMZOhAgyaPVXYm1Vf6 AO45XlUegHEgozT+Gx0OSTlC45NyWKItS8/ForD5zQrFxheTsxqCrIR2lRRhHFXpJWujfLsPi 3pQ9qG/rA19IVKBrSTqIyg2S0wLsxOnHOR5D8mze4KC5M8jC5KH1t8ESHjNQCl4q+pFv41NS0 z9aG93y0nb5AdP9qRx0wGDXV9RlSLG33QRj8CpDXEP7V/1sDZOEflU9bjmE3CuAoY1kDMDnxS 57EwqWwVwfUxl4+LgWw+RrcpG1IMzMpjMPzOtc5x5S/TwPWy8x5MzVhEv1vt0pcgTAylPVmtD lQXh19fLozFZlAt00yOnHLryWmGnuvSKuMMeKHl353DfTMSkBAKl0LwR7qLHDwUG1zpEaNB0R aL1WRpRN3S2fb5LZRJa8ExUDnKToi2UrujtqsoEoi1W6novNHSN8SXXUl2egEtVDjlFyYD+a0 uFDcAvz8aZ8AqC76ANMRec2WoCwlxrLQDpF+ZQofUDa1Djj0ZC9LpHYil/dsxDDi/HcwO2B4x mv7aUy5hcT7QtV6o+3h9z1DT9ja7LhDYqYQK2AJSl/rOGZmewa07VPnzk2jmjrcG5D4d07rbS MrgCQU1TJUXzdl83iAI+jMHB53x/CnJcHbAxPm1iuyjbqeAO7xXJj2S+q5IT8BJpMnHzXPJuU OP5vgSxqTUtr3R6/58br0HsmdnI0dg/ZvHODC2TLyTAEeHoeQXnAptcqHw1nUmXDN/XXobunI 2jMMUUXuYrNXUQSS/X+RcKbXWyRHjn1sxcFRziKW+9ap7IJhi2yYEpKOHwyzjYZu7AeAp7eBJ zSbsPdG+oCtv3fjanKd33GIeI1nO5U3XUE5JbBrJRKybe7Z7JQOFCyc4I2MsUTIue8ZXf39oE B8banXGDJnSNwHajTZ7tOk+Xwd9Yi7Dpggx9h3F2yri/Xa3NiZSGyNkRhJkHc8kqyeaU+uCx/ gA6LDPmhGJkdptTcqVQ+rGWRcsVR/Idw6jGKnC/EOQD4qM+URxn7xXkbcaPAUXUZ9C1ULTWIt hfcw7Jcm09NUtz9UsGnshmXAgNnTovbdss8DB8+QDDpk9iqW+WU21ncboVw3lC21ALsIX2Glb KA6uQt8miBZQj4= X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > Let's see what others think about this aspect. A naive question probably: Why do we want to do "that" at run time? Can't we make the byte compiler detect such occurrences? martin From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:12:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163152427711976 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:12:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 09:11:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44369 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPhzh-000376-0Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 05:11:17 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:58450) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPhzc-00036u-Ol for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 05:11:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631524271; bh=HuC2zNl2ed5BR+YQlziqWsCo5l+JJ2s1y2i/x+m4FRo=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=AW+/fFaNggxEPhpp46n+2D6pwEl0gPay0MiJOl4XTvYMPGTRILv9VCm9VmyhKKb2h G85p/bvbsF/RmxGN7uf5j7UYkG+HdtGdVr3WfogYxfgKQO3pZt9K3oOe5ctMHgDles 4vk/mLp/i1ELodBzomGoCOE2n21rKYG1B84j0P1X0YguZI8/ca2fcdR/Mbuf8olhwX +m7G2puLgDuuFAGV/oBj+WCJ1Rs/KPrAXH0Ttdwz3xaxqntTBevIIHPQEpyQWDh0Qe qvlKqfrHPZ1m/qfFamKNU1p/PXjiJbwIcV6B2Wq2Wfst48oNNMGMHDlFWQtVoA35lL D8r6d/UeD+Cdw== Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:11:11 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <87a6khj6s5.fsf@gnus.org> Message-ID: <97113ce8badac94c846f@heytings.org> References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a2308486fe146f77@heytings.org> <87a6khj6s5.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> + if (!EQ (plist, Qnil) && !NILP (Fplist_get (plist, Qcustom_set))) >> + safe_call2 (Qdisplay_warning, Qsetq, >> + CALLN (Fformat, >> + build_string >> + ("`%s' should be set with `customize-set-variable'"), >> + sym)); > > I haven't tried the patch, but won't this be triggered by the code > that's handling the variables? For instance, `latin1-display' has a > :set, but the file itself does `(setq latin1-display t)' etc. (This is > a very common pattern.) > No, (latin1-display 'latin-2) does not raise a warning with the patch, because latin1-disp.el is bytecompiled, and Fsetq is not used when bytecompiled code is executed (bytecompiled code only uses Fset). That being said, I would say that using (setq latin1-display t) when latin1-display has a :set is always a bug, in the init file, interactively, or in built-in code (bytecompiled or not), and that (set 'latin1-display t) should be used instead. WDYT? From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:15:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , hmelman@gmail.com, larsi@gnus.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163152448312373 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:15:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 09:14:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44382 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPi31-0003DV-0p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 05:14:43 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:58466) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPi2z-0003DO-Ny for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 05:14:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631524481; bh=IURPJjDAd9A8aFO9dOa6+BfSmCBA+FpDMXubV2ZQ1j8=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=CfvDSXPbEKnzU1a3Swzc08vqQPYe/zb8YsiRgnAwaT1qprp++UNRf2a3d28oNSPq+ XJl4ZSVJEIzLG+PYybMV3R3PZNn/gbey1zHhs01gD3kVzMUdi28IKloQks3fnfN9Ny W1A34s/p9Pkvk7vZyV4FwiNQkEqJyLwVgsB3IhVODr3MJw1RKl6Zq2QGHYIwVZu4o4 ptyErHxE0Gth1tiP4c+oE1SZ+SOYUFVYCQPFEWpQ6bN7F/I7TvW7mkWTdNAuRLfSG8 15Bjw56TO5m0ATL3zvaxb4cl6LDEVxQlkZ4CIc2IEGfPympgtROv8Us59qqV4sH4dr 0aRoOfgsvy3jg== Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:14:40 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <97113ce8ba560c9ac39f@heytings.org> References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> Let's see what others think about this aspect. > > A naive question probably: Why do we want to do "that" at run time? > Can't we make the byte compiler detect such occurrences? > Because init files are typically not bytecompiled, and because that would not catch interactive uses with e.g. M-:. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:19:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163152470112861 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:19:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 09:18:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44392 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPi6X-0003LM-Fw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 05:18:21 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56276) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPi6V-0003L4-N6 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 05:18:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=mOw+nchPzftjIcAY8yGdz9Xuu3A52FCfw7jZIe0SpEY=; b=kjwu6x7m3oJZXBYCE3utxcycnB ciDD1jz9DtJ+1hF6BWhA/Xl6LwpB+IwgJbLvuf3Dckkm8hF3MJ88hY4fwsLvT8xGWoHRiIhv0A4Fq CYSgctuzxElOd/aiUYv1ko+j9ejPBJwkuhQZWvbdOvH4GPCiRPlfEtz8hK3Ox0sijBnM=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mPi6N-0007Gx-GL; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:18:13 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a2308486fe146f77@heytings.org> <87a6khj6s5.fsf@gnus.org> <97113ce8badac94c846f@heytings.org> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:18:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: <97113ce8badac94c846f@heytings.org> (Gregory Heytings's message of "Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:11:11 +0000") Message-ID: <87fsu8esvg.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Gregory Heytings writes: > No, (latin1-display 'latin-2) does not raise a warning with the patch, > because latin1-disp.el is bytecompiled, and Fsetq is not used when > bytecompiled code is executed (bytecompiled code only us [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Gregory Heytings writes: > No, (latin1-display 'latin-2) does not raise a warning with the patch, > because latin1-disp.el is bytecompiled, and Fsetq is not used when > bytecompiled code is executed (bytecompiled code only uses Fset). Right. But it's perfectly valid to run uncompiled code, and these warnings would be false positives in that case. > That being said, I would say that using (setq latin1-display t) when > latin1-display has a :set is always a bug, in the init file, > interactively, or in built-in code (bytecompiled or not), and that > (set 'latin1-display t) should be used instead. WDYT? I have not studied the code -- I just picked a variable at random. The point is that code in a package will commonly use setq on the user options to implement the code, and this is how it should be. (Also note that your patch will issue a bunch of warnings if the user does an `eval-buffer' after loading .emacs into a buffer and then evaling it (in a running Emacs).) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:33:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163153272518529 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 11:33:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 11:32:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44509 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPkBx-0004oT-1X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 07:32:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47624) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPkBu-0004hr-2w for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 07:32:03 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33250) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPkBn-0003na-UR; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 07:31:55 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2619 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPkBg-0003Os-5d; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 07:31:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:31:41 +0300 Message-Id: <83wnnkemoy.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <0d48a2308486fe146f77@heytings.org> (message from Gregory Heytings on Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:26:18 +0000) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a2308486fe146f77@heytings.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 21:26:18 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings > cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org > > > Even then, some people will frown on 20% slowdown of the startup. > > It is not a slowdown of the startup, it is a slowdown of setq Init files use a lot of setq's, at least mine do. > which becomes visible for the user when say 100 million setq's are > executed. Tell that to those who complain when startup takes more than 100 msec. > Anyway, given your remark, I improved the patch. With this optimized > version, there is no noticeable difference for variables without a plist > (~40 nanoseconds for each call to setq, with and without the patch), and a > small difference for variables with a plist (~40 nanoseconds for each call > to setq without the patch, ~42 nanoseconds with the patch). Thanks, this is much better. But I think this still needs some discussion (and one is already going on), so let's wait until it reaches some conclusions. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:19:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16315355021053 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:19:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 12:18:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44577 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPkuk-0000Gv-6G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:18:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58350) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPkui-0000GH-Of for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:18:20 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:34652) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPkud-0002Zr-Ca; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:18:15 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1515 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPkuR-0006C6-81; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:18:03 -0400 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:17:56 +0300 Message-Id: <83ilz4ekjv.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <97113ce8badac94c846f@heytings.org> (message from Gregory Heytings on Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:11:11 +0000) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a2308486fe146f77@heytings.org> <87a6khj6s5.fsf@gnus.org> <97113ce8badac94c846f@heytings.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:11:11 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings > Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org > > > >> + if (!EQ (plist, Qnil) && !NILP (Fplist_get (plist, Qcustom_set))) > >> + safe_call2 (Qdisplay_warning, Qsetq, > >> + CALLN (Fformat, > >> + build_string > >> + ("`%s' should be set with `customize-set-variable'"), > >> + sym)); > > > > I haven't tried the patch, but won't this be triggered by the code > > that's handling the variables? For instance, `latin1-display' has a > > :set, but the file itself does `(setq latin1-display t)' etc. (This is > > a very common pattern.) > > > > No, (latin1-display 'latin-2) does not raise a warning with the patch, > because latin1-disp.el is bytecompiled, and Fsetq is not used when > bytecompiled code is executed (bytecompiled code only uses Fset). So the warning will not be shown for byte-compiled code? I think it might be not a good idea, as many users byte-compile their init files. > That being said, I would say that using (setq latin1-display t) when > latin1-display has a :set is always a bug, in the init file, > interactively, or in built-in code (bytecompiled or not), and that (set > 'latin1-display t) should be used instead. WDYT? I think forcing people to use 'set' instead is too much of a punishment. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:37:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , hmelman@gmail.com, larsi@gnus.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16315365993130 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:37:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 12:36:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44604 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPlCQ-0000oQ-Nc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:36:38 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:45691) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPlCP-0000o8-MR for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:36:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1631536590; bh=xXFpgpPf3qr2mhCNZY1Y3JSFNs7T1D8wDO3y/zfatVg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=NPPh+ccwRdnLJERfaNebQzGHl78w/N+oRfc15y2dYWEc4/A+GqZEf6Bx5MnNTwtBJ Mg64kYk8U7sLPUIlIy2JsA3rQkJZUuToMhbxipIPB7zFfE5oqjjqshk/8i9sWxnR0a zgn4kA4rH97owQlJSQWhHU+imurYxDIkq02Yqqcg= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([212.95.5.129]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MAOJV-1mDypZ2BbP-00BwmG; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:36:30 +0200 References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <97113ce8ba560c9ac39f@heytings.org> From: martin rudalics Message-ID: <6b0f1c8e-9cfa-99b5-2862-d25e85cff3e5@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 14:36:29 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <97113ce8ba560c9ac39f@heytings.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:9NOObsEx1A9gyKcPOxCNvmcHU4qXQthETLs6j0d3qxsYCmgmpq8 d5FAAPEUzznkl8M2XhDcpw0+w9JMN6l00S+DqE00XoV02CS9kuMObFLlVpFuTJzcnNnSd3L eafOl4VO6+fPvQMNki6uBRYpPJnKa4l5Da7GymT1mo3w6KC2cjSQoa7movTNYnBeEKACMnz KT5KIf9R6G+SIjbsMPkLw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:K+pwpuxjKB8=:5jLy2g8g6ejKQQqsW1Yr7r v/IccI20OK09XSYqn/ZbWEti+tFqWBZuh5mbRuiaaIzbpzb3c31k1yX4oWBPNuHDYmowX42eh Gp6ydkmErBfSf46EC823k+g6m3WPA+jymUb/oLhjdAGqKHVNoX3n17zeyZa5sylY04BKmMkHo arAza5c9KJPrGjPMxqgAWy3erKGqc0Qmyo5+89Usf7PBEF1yMjQu2nZ495FBnWosWzsKdOSaf WXodVOsUyDsZD7KT1Dr1Ajtlv0FZsZQxB9WRYVlR9NQx7sOY3X17jRWSJQBGCTci5wDAn8oPc xwprbIJIG9KciAZhOOwXuroG7NNkXxaVAYrgklLXjNhld6ndfoSz8k8T5sZrjFbYSLxr/h5gT Rfav3yaey0eVN01aAThKJTMIU+Z6PhQtKeNQW6L3eFjzq8SjgMyQ4PUDku6egHr9XAs5O6+gA xzZmEZ5gOBtJoCPNO85HDJ9VrqPUggdr6uvJIcOu54fFTqLAVcWSxO5aCunpDYfM+oBlRGtmc ICC6NU1E8jG/54ajzqRxXUbcaBHHNhDlWVzO12dNHajFpe/SLqlyRp0m0pwHJqxJcURWjw8Gq 1OAxkPeL3f5JtDNmD7G1XCNTAbKnBTOZ2fVp9ZhRO6sF6GrLa/lZmA31kIZ9lk/iNjyGvjeeN qwWQbfrOeVeApon3vLwt6AYYO2fyPaqgog6gModw6qMXA5IGjyskMY9KBLoG3UFfO4tcVleJ1 8mHqVwV5mqCPG+bqYqltRcQpRnEQFnyehj/lj7NdIPFo1F/1vmAt731G8hBgA+NfmJQ+Jo+4R 1dWUV6w9ZvbcKCTWJMmGFGjI5gRJpyrtm6Zl55hEyY6RigKVTFnkCEpsDWP+SlJg8rGlMKkFD Xjw2IdZZiqPjC3ZM02A0kOZFbidl2WtrOGjYyzauWsff2AfnLZim2hFCZcaLROj77bUV2ht1v C1HqEUDhmC37PBcPuWu7bGaHjI28B1A3ZSPooG5UONKb/9IYzdiZ6Kk85x7V9VVWxWnw+OkAy s+N6VldS//Wn1VZtzTjuktvf+3lav/B61Acvl+KmnwFTXwc2uAT5Ji0S4TEtLt5dg+PCA9EOL CRonFDUnOptO9w= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Because init files are typically not bytecompiled, and because that > would not catch interactive uses with e.g. M-:. Both would be most unwelcome here. I often use `setq' in short "init" files for debugging purposes and sometimes use `setq' via M-: during debugging. In neither of these cases I wanted to be disturbed by any warnings. I would, however, welcome being warned when a user option is overridden by a package I load, either by a local binding or `setq'. At compile time. martin From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:53:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163153756313142 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:53:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 12:52:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44620 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPlRz-0003Pu-K3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:52:43 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:58684) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPlRx-0003Pj-EY for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 08:52:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631537559; bh=my3kN0KohV7MkgADofw9NQzVidgjkTugxMFRJ7nKuhQ=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=smH0go084aeznJOGO5siM2QMI1VFSZRPCgaDIoYyrRh9IAXyPyO/WXIBCcNpzZyBF 748AhituWGqh68pq1hySveFtZGwoDTOcivyrV0QLdgpr60rp8muM+OnWKoruhiQTUh eAtzIW9arDf1OmPtXEz2wAOIfwQYYFuG3Z7gteV1O3owMYBX2wkuJ3eRk740V8ZI3x 0sJEMxHCVa1CUZZKUvJQlFvVolYvtBobefwuahG6lNZsfy1IanpTILdJJxuoQHlSfw l7wFbP6YFiXVTW3HwrnbpGlBohvxkyCroxhTBzf0MNpYyAYeia2RHBnlzIuwrQKfJu H9w7u8DogTeuw== Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 12:52:39 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <6b0f1c8e-9cfa-99b5-2862-d25e85cff3e5@gmx.at> Message-ID: <97113ce8bab1a4e2456d@heytings.org> References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <97113ce8ba560c9ac39f@heytings.org> <6b0f1c8e-9cfa-99b5-2862-d25e85cff3e5@gmx.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> Because init files are typically not bytecompiled, and because that >> would not catch interactive uses with e.g. M-:. > > Both would be most unwelcome here. I often use `setq' in short "init" > files for debugging purposes and sometimes use `setq' via M-: during > debugging. In neither of these cases I wanted to be disturbed by any > warnings. I would, however, welcome being warned when a user option is > overridden by a package I load, either by a local binding or `setq'. > At compile time. > The point is not to display unnecessary warnings. The point is only to display warnings for custom variables that should not be set with setq because they have a :set form, or IOW, to display warnings for custom variables that should be set with customize-set-variables. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:01:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163153801814182 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:01:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 13:00:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44644 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPlZJ-0003gg-RA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:00:18 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:58702) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPlZI-0003gY-Ak for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:00:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631538015; bh=rwMVWaTQP9zGXX8b5kfq25Q1fQygkXvXxxK1BDjpOuU=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=LpXRtEsVFF8rbs/M4Oi1Cn2nuWJ9os5HSnsU7Y0pFJTNGIxFKnlngxKNBTmsQMhp/ qXw5p4exMrgwhL88tBEOlA2gcLZSZZdxERj2RkwXon79tI5XwHpULV8D2N2DvMFwWT jxmq7DFXb2Ry80mQrilXcPbJpT3TkQOofFwguXRPhjgysPIj1z0s93KLH/2pUNJhsr QVI7X+sPyPMTBERo3qyf9lnsnnxoNwWjwZ/W4Z/Ou2CesNMNCxlAtZRJk9mkeqAZIB Bq2v0GqOMfC+TcGZuba9NaHzApbQLvpoz099tK9iV1IMuNWKqFayeGLNFvEb0Jo5rI ySvIHkJu9TcdQ== Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:00:15 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: <87fsu8esvg.fsf@gnus.org> Message-ID: <97113ce8baf7455e6f58@heytings.org> References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a2308486fe146f77@heytings.org> <87a6khj6s5.fsf@gnus.org> <97113ce8badac94c846f@heytings.org> <87fsu8esvg.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> That being said, I would say that using (setq latin1-display t) when >> latin1-display has a :set is always a bug, in the init file, >> interactively, or in built-in code (bytecompiled or not), and that (set >> 'latin1-display t) should be used instead. WDYT? > > I have not studied the code -- I just picked a variable at random. The > point is that code in a package will commonly use setq on the user > options to implement the code, and this is how it should be. > My point is that code that sets a user option that has a :set should set it with (set 'foo val) instead of (setq foo val). I just checked: on the current trunk, there are 331 defcustoms with a :set. Out of these, only 49 are set with setq, 33 only at one place, and 16 more than once. That would require changing 85 setq's into set's. > > (Also note that your patch will issue a bunch of warnings if the user > does an `eval-buffer' after loading .emacs into a buffer and then > evaling it (in a running Emacs).) > There are not that many custom variables that will behave differently when the init file is first loaded and when it is eval-buffer'd. AFAICS this will only happen for variables whose files have been loaded in the meantime after they have been setq'd. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:57:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163154139829853 (code B ref 21695); Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:57:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2021 13:56:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46443 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPmRp-0007lR-Nj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:56:37 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54498) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mPmRo-0007lH-Rt for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:56:37 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:37424) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPmRj-00056S-5q; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:56:31 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3842 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mPmRQ-0006Ww-9o; Mon, 13 Sep 2021 09:56:12 -0400 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 16:56:04 +0300 Message-Id: <834kaoeg0b.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <97113ce8baf7455e6f58@heytings.org> (message from Gregory Heytings on Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:00:15 +0000) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a2308486fe146f77@heytings.org> <87a6khj6s5.fsf@gnus.org> <97113ce8badac94c846f@heytings.org> <87fsu8esvg.fsf@gnus.org> <97113ce8baf7455e6f58@heytings.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 13:00:15 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings > Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org > > I just checked: on the current trunk, there are 331 defcustoms with a > :set. Out of these, only 49 are set with setq, 33 only at one place, and > 16 more than once. That would require changing 85 setq's into set's. Please don't. This is a tail wagging the dog. We will not disallow using 'setq' in a setter of a defcustom, it would be ridiculous if we did. I'd rather leave this minor issue unsolved than taking such drastic actions. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:28:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Gregory Heytings Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16316980558047 (code B ref 21695); Wed, 15 Sep 2021 09:28:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2021 09:27:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50895 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQRCZ-00025j-Fc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 05:27:35 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]:57985) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQRCX-00025S-E4 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 05:27:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1631698047; bh=YQFdGNer8anWMSteKJeg9WvXWJ9yOw5TRxHrfrac1Fg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=YAc8babTHQkC6ToyJWG5f2DOm3xwKPQTKu++WJUdhje7p/ty1gUtkXQKCxTze1YU8 qY1NqkqScUw30lR2PhD8WRBXpif+aTZtHWJ2f/D42HtcBpKvIHT0L0yUVkCoHXNmkd cGX3/au7AASBaZbgDmI3fvC/llHRqU9+KgA0MIdQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([213.142.97.111]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MxUs7-1moGfe0g93-00xt1j; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:27:27 +0200 References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <97113ce8ba560c9ac39f@heytings.org> <6b0f1c8e-9cfa-99b5-2862-d25e85cff3e5@gmx.at> <97113ce8bab1a4e2456d@heytings.org> From: martin rudalics Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:27:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <97113ce8bab1a4e2456d@heytings.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:4c99e40VnZuWHGBdNBb653KDCLPXzxLQIu0dsVRB4AMr2Tfd1L4 gnWY8P8PFEZ+b+FTKcZo3WIv57NIWGsBuGBe0SwqdZ8FosQYuoACSZye3tGEJ2E4wNhLKBY QrJrFFOR1cuNt6GlYp7QugovUSxzpvqm4XKmfuY2wQAahNQYb8LAYLI70EQKdA2jRjBArL4 bUv+FVUa6m9HP7TAMEJ/g== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Lw4NZSGdzMI=:ubTHoCjn9+AUEQhsOCWBR5 qeUhvxv3Vd5d02m9nKnqBIFyC8CA39SMQuNRFPiJNaamiNf++0apW3nXmSIH0LfWA/9i18sZJ hKeoTsdhwGdDaqRgbvLCed+3MI4BQ9wV5Zr7/9ADq2m+fT8dogYVJ4Gv94U0qjNSk9ZVj2sR7 NoGpkG5bisC3jctRMoqAnWDGYVhE9M4ScNbq6c1yb2S/sYxVEqTJeZea073lJOPBCAuhXatVt Fr1uZMTaZUVcxnuZCn6riK1ju5X7+X48iQIh5sQqJSyrstwzvWamVTLWGYTGe6lMLpphfvVGZ ixv/FylJontjjMxnEsBGfnChYcjsBssbnWKhwlZ1q0ynNicjvw2p032JyYBrQW2/8q355PUzV VG2J+XYJpyHCEhLRIvI8ovNgZISR2Yr9GX/h1ulXBft3xTKOos77iSnSJKj9bty3b7iPcqL6v ThXItcLRDvh3fPkimJgniwKO59BtyIkg/tLqTy02JLvJFGrx9DaIbuz0t4XgBOUEeTGKdficj UBYl+xEupECnVcOWh/NpSX4AQJxkso/5rlV7rpCIT6TAof8TS1lbeTj67lJgcN22iZ/QLeJoX rmAKt7wxdUFzbzvRzByHWxKhwBb3+9LymWy56R85z1eX5+ytiIweF0iMsOQpjDzMnyfLvYlWP pImhcR3bbPJfxoSnAljA9NsdYTqE8EIXFdNBBarkkJ34Y4DxSWJ1bS+Bnn+V1newbUu7rpYCL JzFingtdaHJ4/D2dNwSb8bN1GNYNn0SDWZJ15fHmwuk8f9nDUc4dGNiXsjdD6QNw/aoJoIrHH nYyssGZTcKQbojKgqxt2AoAkrN3eaSR4SbV6a7ppSbZU/xUFNV497dkHcz1TSxdxdJ2+79bnM vsPNTTBqEhLZ8aD2k17AMMP2/pXW31pFKmwe0w920mc4HlQKNBUrGQWG4B5LGmx1QQdu0rnMK mb6uOXI+1hWvWYc+4Pgln5YNNOSmtZEQHCfesgd5t62RTRXa24TE7OZFuMZovqF7MgFn0wyNd rumYRGRseXRakn6N3AJFME7e9bXv3FAW2njhIHOhn/0czl0WHHZTOBpx2rMhKjEE9TrZCJeem fOPpWQftfH8NSM= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > The point is not to display unnecessary warnings. The point is only > to display warnings for custom variables that should not be set with > setq because they have a :set form, or IOW, to display warnings for > custom variables that should be set with customize-set-variables. I checked most of our uses of :set and agree that they usually behave well-mannered so using `setq' instead is practically always a bug indeed. But if the warnings are not displayed for byte-compiled code I miss who their major addressee would be. martin From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:01:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: larsi@gnus.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163170004511329 (code B ref 21695); Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:01:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2021 10:00:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50940 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQRie-0002wf-Pc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 06:00:44 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:60994) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQRid-0002wX-M6 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 06:00:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631700042; bh=wV4PVonwEy3hN6SFSWROPyt+0AZEVLdAkpmFAHEdlU0=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=DBaqfnyj8+IDhMLa4tEOwnNe3GSI0Brv/r5YtnEFFGstPWeR6f3wfww58qhe+1qpR 44zqDTBFbKQMbytF2ix0/LlAsi9eUsGqczp+aemYnJ+QwHfVIBQhgxVBDRoeSUkCjP 1WvMHEYbtMrQf8T48wNsNdCcnr7eHt1t7eYamkbqjvJ79gvHW/XJTqegZyymSj6vaz 6C3ARgVZWu5DH03oXoXrZyFvrBl+Zxuu8jKMHIuNZOah+j4bDR/OXJQ1Vu3HVdwbsM ywGTQXmYKJTIpJc6bpX3nandcwpskTGkLYciPP58eNtldW88rlaufNvF2C6TNVswT4 9ELCSl0LWql5Q== Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:00:41 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3a92ee677874d4285328@heytings.org> References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <97113ce8ba560c9ac39f@heytings.org> <6b0f1c8e-9cfa-99b5-2862-d25e85cff3e5@gmx.at> <97113ce8bab1a4e2456d@heytings.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> The point is not to display unnecessary warnings. The point is only to >> display warnings for custom variables that should not be set with setq >> because they have a :set form, or IOW, to display warnings for custom >> variables that should be set with customize-set-variables. > > I checked most of our uses of :set and agree that they usually behave > well-mannered so using `setq' instead is practically always a bug > indeed. > Thank you. So this has now been (at least) double-checked. > > But if the warnings are not displayed for byte-compiled code I miss who > their major addressee would be. > Users who use setq in their init files where customize-set-variable should be used, and users who use setq interactively (with e.g. M-:) when they should have used customize-set-variable instead. In particular newcomers who might be puzzled to see that (setq foo t) does not work as they think it should. Anyway, I don't feel a lot of enthusiasm for that feature, so I think it's probably better to let the patch rest in peace. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, gregory@heytings.org, hmelman@gmail.com, larsi@gnus.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16317368423673 (code B ref 21695); Wed, 15 Sep 2021 20:15:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2021 20:14:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53366 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQbIA-0000x0-99 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:14:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40152) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQbI7-0000wY-J2 for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:14:01 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:52998) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mQbI1-0000Ga-Tu; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:13:53 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mQbI0-0001pt-LO; Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:13:52 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: (message from martin rudalics on Wed, 15 Sep 2021 11:27:25 +0200) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <97113ce8ba560c9ac39f@heytings.org> <6b0f1c8e-9cfa-99b5-2862-d25e85cff3e5@gmx.at> <97113ce8bab1a4e2456d@heytings.org> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2021 16:13:52 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > The point is not to display unnecessary warnings. The point is only > > to display warnings for custom variables that should not be set with > > setq because they have a :set form, or IOW, to display warnings for > > custom variables that should be set with customize-set-variables. > I checked most of our uses of :set and agree that they usually behave > well-mannered so using `setq' instead is practically always a bug > indeed. I am puzzled by that statement. First, it seems to say that the definitions of the variables are careful, so that they DTRT if the user sets one with setq in an init file. Then it seems to say that setting one of these variable with setq (in an init file?) is almost surely a bug. Those two statements are almost opposites. Did I misunderstand? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 06:57:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: rms@gnu.org Cc: 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, gregory@heytings.org, hmelman@gmail.com, larsi@gnus.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163177541931667 (code B ref 21695); Thu, 16 Sep 2021 06:57:01 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2021 06:56:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53654 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQlKN-0008Eh-GG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 02:56:59 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]:50397) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mQlKK-0008ES-EI for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 02:56:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1631775409; bh=wTidRtgPPItr978KbKpRejMeM7dVPMMIg8LgVzBAlZI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=XVqhJsspJMkQREyGIkULYzwhtcEKRKXV/0jHMd+syqlLt8zCQiT2I1+N+iM9aneHV TuVsdIlSQx+7uaZYItNUbHe6ehDSt+SIJhlTTQDrB4bX0PKZG+XSxR/2YvKpwAqqRa yVZbFoBULV71ERrO85lbxL069JH+WCkraQRCkyho= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([212.95.5.163]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N2V0H-1mtwHm0mbv-013v7G; Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:56:49 +0200 References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <97113ce8ba560c9ac39f@heytings.org> <6b0f1c8e-9cfa-99b5-2862-d25e85cff3e5@gmx.at> <97113ce8bab1a4e2456d@heytings.org> From: martin rudalics Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:56:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:eekQhVsiX8trrNHl0JEVk01AXxpGTv38jDd+6woAmttOodGMfXo WKenC4kLonizH3o2OpWqMoPUHZcUIm40vCVv+9PNTMCY1/Gkur+Z2S8Uw3H7GMwsgHvS97q +3OgCDI6/O0jvwkCYklGue5027A4w0PQgDVIZG5pxaH4ap7oZL6Y1vGBTNg01VUsx40Ak4P vYiRHYFD9ohR87LYNOgpQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:VUNnz5TBQeg=:d3VldUg/R0jcPD2Ka03bDb Mvbm3/rvS5WaZ9j3us2n3ovv/1+FMjQrFYGbZivrDgaPcfNKbXjU4tPtYOxLyuCS5uQqz7KEB FJscji+s+d2DQPtCQH118uSQtpkdWQ4WXWGyutxf3dOLdcXdg0XwtDPpa9qpBl8QF0R49BGdV mZTonPqT29xpCeTNw+M1G2gFnwbtcTiJkkZ1JP2qtRuEEceREFDTONv1Y2lregM5T6ry30BJY VuKdTJ8TBAxzgpBu07MMBtHYcEgA8HMaRdU+72ARGJUwwBKGSfVEuDYbXgN79iYo5+gZ21QZd D62+3iMeE6miMNGWzEwfjPUsMpJ+/3t0J6NV4PMBu6PqBNEtWaF69zCL9PWIS6OFev9NwHDet 2kfQ6TlYxuh6o093GaUV7G5ODF3a9VO96jtD2AcHR0XYGi0EBsK0fpQgK4ysH6o9Z8btyeYWE cY6oxiQkIbItJ8f8cXBsRPYbwBOqw6TP65Mp32FLjStfRD79woQ4833D9ok2lo2fA+w7RqAyy 4t3n+Ycobjzd0bqlXPpEUTqiIT3VBw+FbeGrh3hCihBeBmficlLDW0UcoMzSu2n2x6u61ERJY 33zqy29ttcxNyOQefRkmsZXi0bOMcN3R60VctwEkSuLD9Gt6L227FhWF2bOC82fHRpPj/A7oW 1Dqc2sKuqxPWD13soKGhws6ByUjbm3bRbfps+BNWaow5WNAW5ZmzxF8uwm1hF3q5/Mfqj7CDp 7IP3hvKByq4iHVglRRbdA44wJysqhv8e+2O2kMHnSpSEsAsBEXqWUebfJj8h76KVGl0EBuQft QgRt0bwjoWyO5chlj/ejaYWFrTeY0lyefShWglxxLE79PSJ80/8pD5zU39jxMv0NiedIKoWM+ S+WQ2kLw2xD8tpV1xGyiLReTPSGABAMfcREwrqkZogqeXVbW60/UcuYhCdgkhIg79Eb20Ums7 FXlKT4uk2Oy04i69/IyXQOXD5RjgtXTzVprENgd6i5TT6jLaOqLGpEpvxYC0Sf0T6sDbfQyLv DYUmRl2G4DESHXh8zvCTl9i+t9ZKynYvhl15JTivRjcpgs+EHE7WjNc0uXge26gJHNEEyJYRd JPm7rdHOonuvus= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > > The point is not to display unnecessary warnings. The point is only > > > to display warnings for custom variables that should not be set with > > > setq because they have a :set form, or IOW, to display warnings for > > > custom variables that should be set with customize-set-variables. > > > I checked most of our uses of :set and agree that they usually behave > > well-mannered so using `setq' instead is practically always a bug > > indeed. > > I am puzzled by that statement. First, it seems to say that the > definitions of the variables are careful, I probably should have said "that the definitions of the variables have been written carefully" so nobody would have come to a conclusion like > so that they DTRT if the > user sets one with setq in an init file. which is not what I had in mind. > Then it seems to say that setting one of these variable with setq (in > an init file?) is almost surely a bug. This is the conclusion I had in mind. > Those two statements are almost opposites. > > Did I misunderstand? Either you did or my formulation was bad. martin. From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:32:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: larsi@gnus.org, gregory@heytings.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16319250686141 (code B ref 21695); Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:32:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2021 00:31:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33269 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mROG4-0001ay-EQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:31:08 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:55392) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mROG0-0001aP-1L for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:31:07 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:34112) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mROFt-0000Zw-SS; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:30:58 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mROFk-0001T9-N6; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:30:50 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: (message from martin rudalics on Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:56:48 +0200) References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <838s0fpixr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0jtr45c.fsf@gnu.org> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <97113ce8ba560c9ac39f@heytings.org> <6b0f1c8e-9cfa-99b5-2862-d25e85cff3e5@gmx.at> <97113ce8bab1a4e2456d@heytings.org> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:30:48 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I probably should have said "that the definitions of the variables have > been written carefully" so nobody would have come to a conclusion like > > so that they DTRT if the > > user sets one with setq in an init file. > which is not what I had in mind. I am now not sure what you had in mind. However, we seem to have reached conflicting conclusions. You say that > Then it seems to say that setting one of these variable with setq (in > an init file?) is almost surely a bug. but everything else in this discussion seems to support the opposite conclusion: setting one of these variables with setq in an init file, in the usual simple case (you haven't loaded the definition yet), is perfectly ok. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 07:35:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: rms@gnu.org Cc: larsi@gnus.org, gregory@heytings.org, hmelman@gmail.com, 21695@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.163195048626939 (code B ref 21695); Sat, 18 Sep 2021 07:35:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2021 07:34:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33437 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRUs2-00070R-AB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 03:34:46 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:49141) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRUs0-00070C-6I for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 03:34:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1631950477; bh=DQxW4uDvJSsDXidZFo3EqVFOmIQ6FrN0RY5u2LX7deg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=CEeqhPE4Kg/g6jDslo5A2FZoLy4kegV5TLfCQvS+HkypKTbnVCIDS6foBp+4t+UbF S8t/Bks9HVqIoHAwI2Jwpo7MZ1SvOanERf+pLdi5S14isR2YnpV4mIqSWabcVzn6gN xmFg4iXThDeydYMBfDaAuAe90CrDWxx6x8d0h2w8= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([213.142.96.44]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MtwUm-1mk8B70AVY-00uM6a; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:34:37 +0200 References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <97113ce8ba560c9ac39f@heytings.org> <6b0f1c8e-9cfa-99b5-2862-d25e85cff3e5@gmx.at> <97113ce8bab1a4e2456d@heytings.org> From: martin rudalics Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:34:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:bAp/9AsxzE0j3V/e69Xw97L7P76C9gRSMKaClP/XSKWZAMc1IZL TzTVnb2j0zu1pglxF76e2wFbsk3f6noNMMYt5V2GPiA/UwxffLAniVx6GCeb4yVjSQXJCk6 unWWZVCkoXhRH2o88YFzhcrO1he+CE2hZnr/cOpL1g5yrIZFrEoiENwen3NDGBWludCm869 Ao1svERrmZ8JeUI5t9vjQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:DHugpoHx6gw=:t3ZRdOpIzIu3SyamsUaMwH Fb6ZUiUoljlPu3IbmzrydiYRV566dh7QSxPu3Z3xcd2qBlcm5o0+eQcwfkap4AaVvdMeq7+P7 xREvCykPfeaomhkRPDQ57+ElhBqj9AvzaCVg9iPA3q/yUwe+61H7aF/NyKDVtxfTHoItml3zV 8YeJLJId9UC/WiQq8AAbCfE669y4fuMZ/zbQ5BasgHBpjUEAUxWJ/LvPbhHAquz4np8J1r31V 3SFc+U0kUwh/usJsJXUTfcb+RuHRTeEvTFXE1YhZXuYm5qOj0wRoIZ0eeF+Q5ilEHtrgkKGpi r90fkTogVZgDkTI29aTqW9siqob1iLduoEVaC1LPVvYzOGw+IVfp19oK96bmDE3Oo+NhnYbgI 8t6vWz9yQGpS5leKo698ALcuZFxaGoA67WDgpUdjLAJ0Sqx4RbykXkkbBnIDvj1q4O2VslNlT atYii2XBACWC0lt7L/OqnerrwslaWjmcAEaMaWXdVyyIZAyed3hf7rJZLsDphD2rm5jOiUrxg OZ7EU2KmNrcdtFkOWWYdejFGvxvCBIt6bdacYdRq2AdZ3jGASSyLB9QVZmf83ZE6E30dHnDBX tpwx/epAkA5HV17umrUoO26V34PjbPPbtMwFtkN+vqiY9Dh4xYRWYMop3bqn5dXEy+ngn6ayl 067jsE433JU+6/gl2F5+UfoU2xGuF8uP2mLHAo9Q7/Tfgz7zwywe4l1kO8JlB8vfR+B2D4syS BKI7e28r9jz0TSBwLhbte7GP1QzLqlzeuXCWICyELCz7uDnU8aOZgFnMAowTAe1zaNgAGf5ed TlF2pusVBJPKAefSnF9op8h1lJrSrj5BKcpZKBcC+F5NEbOD9OcHNWNc0ns6dNV2Tc7uscfoi alYPd2hUqj5Vk1lQuICNfKh9C70hk19I4oB7/bDYOYMT4DXVCTskhc3nP/LV2cWO/TXnEgNS6 mORBD4pB+GxvMEa22lmfh11ca6t0HcXqM/HwK67CHuk+iwu5iVaCvej4kFdyomXJ+eT3Tl6Jd CH0LTNps0eqZx8mngJcPcS4tUprkxBxxuoVRUN8rJXYYg1Spm57aaDoEisjT5EYL/sHAyVlSr JTUDwyrC+mmFg4= X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > I am now not sure what you had in mind. > However, we seem to have reached conflicting conclusions. > You say that > > > Then it seems to say that setting one of these variable with setq (in > > an init file?) is almost surely a bug. > > but everything else in this discussion seems to support the opposite > conclusion: setting one of these variables with setq in an init file, > in the usual simple case (you haven't loaded the definition yet), is > perfectly ok. Note that Gregory's patch addresses only a small subset of customizable variables - those whose values should be assigned with a :set form. Typical examples are timer based options like 'blink-cursor-delay' where setting the variable requires to start or restart a timer or options where you want to update things on all live frames or windows as with 'frame-background-mode'. With most of these options a simple 'setq' would have none or at least not the desired visible effect. martin From unknown Mon Aug 11 19:06:16 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21695: 25.0.50; Change most occurrences of `setq' in Emacs manual to `customize-set-variable'? Really? Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:21:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21695 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Richard Stallman Cc: martin rudalics , 21695@debbugs.gnu.org, hmelman@gmail.com, larsi@gnus.org Received: via spool by 21695-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21695.16319568579949 (code B ref 21695); Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:21:02 +0000 Received: (at 21695) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2021 09:20:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33544 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRWWn-0002aO-3f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 05:20:57 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:36814) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRWWh-0002a8-IS for 21695@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 05:20:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1631956850; bh=4L5/3Kwb9Jc1zNp0JAiJCaGPuy/TAu8eceVk83MZhVw=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=MrBEpkfWpXvaW/Id8H/Eq6UljO3NEgeQDRfDTjmZOYqEbmjnJhqDjDMC7QAhEE29X Tat4wJTm4rGvc/AhPd73iLpthCgS400uT+9BebSFvmp2oVZXOUT+jZFMKTa7UtocYL VM9Dv6wuKPQguxXlFAaWbSkf0xAWk/z+iuZkyYWxJPcNuGEQ7Egvv8RxwDCp7Wx3we 1ZKiG10YgTRB6zvXtL3Kw3XC+jrIz+wE3JYdtx1PwRboKALRHQ1AQ2GEOEKbB1stk2 KZEJPh9xgbwv26ZscijeJnqa/3I2G+PV/4cp7f9OvfZruuO4xK81avPio16zDirB/a qVlNIj5uza8Cg== Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:20:50 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <97d3ff2c-9e72-4004-88a9-08130ac99a74@default> <87v93avtoe.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1dyvtav.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtolx6de.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilz9x5c8.fsf@gnus.org> <87y284rb1z.fsf@gnus.org> <0d48a23084a8b0435f37@heytings.org> <83h7eqf9wx.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a230848de1d1b255@heytings.org> <83ee9uf82a.fsf@gnu.org> <0d48a23084cf7a569554@heytings.org> <83czpef6hj.fsf@gnu.org> <97113ce8ba560c9ac39f@heytings.org> <6b0f1c8e-9cfa-99b5-2862-d25e85cff3e5@gmx.at> <97113ce8bab1a4e2456d@heytings.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > everything else in this discussion seems to support the opposite > conclusion: setting one of these variables with setq in an init file, in > the usual simple case (you haven't loaded the definition yet), is > perfectly ok. > Understanding statements always requires some context. Using setq on a variable that hasn't been loaded is indeed okay, but that does not contradict what Martin said, because a variable that hasn't been loaded never has a :set form (even if its definition contains a :set form). In summary: 1. 'foo' does not have a :set form in its definition => it's okay to set it with setq, no warning is displayed 2. 'foo' has a :set form in its definition, but its definition hasn't been loaded => it's okay to set it with setq, no warning is displayed 3. 'foo' has a :set form in its definition, and its definition has been loaded => it's a bug to set it with setq, a warning is displayed There are a number of corner cases that are not covered by the above description, however: 1. if you eval-buffer your init file during an Emacs session, definitions have been loaded in the meantime, so you get warnings you didn't get when you started Emacs; are these legitimate warnings? 2. if you byte-compile your init file, setq's become set's, so the warnings you would see with your non-byte-compiled init files are not displayed anymore; should they be displayed? 3. in (some) files in which variables with a :set form are defined, setq is used to set them (which means that warnings would be displayed if they were eval-buffer'd or loaded without byte-compiling them); are these legitimate warnings? is it a bug to use setq in those files?