From unknown Sun Jun 22 08:11:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21588: 25.0.50: Single quotes becoming curvy quotes in message function Resent-From: Kaushal Modi Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:18:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 21588 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 21588@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.14435614749217 (code B ref -1); Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:18:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2015 21:17:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48240 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2Ha-0002Oa-1C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:54 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:33570) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2HY-0002OQ-Do for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:53 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2HX-00079K-30 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:52 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD,HTML_MESSAGE,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:39643) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2HX-00079G-0D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:51 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43575) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2HV-0007vv-TV for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:50 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2HU-00078u-MN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:49 -0400 Received: from mail-ob0-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22d]:33989) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2HU-00078p-GS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:48 -0400 Received: by obbda8 with SMTP id da8so16372351obb.1 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:17:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=/WJJl1aWNj807jbsIzpSa3c4o9FdudpBT8f3NeykXR0=; b=CEHzKVqzZa+q2f85redHkrucHOqvCosWrQe5OH77fcCBfRj5GSI+2D+PTcSjQbSZkq +j8agJJjhMPNVjkXIKXx8QinYyC4nYfH5B4tcEWxvmhvf28FCXmogd9jx1BvcvpMZtCd ILrlxsV/93Ljjlv40CDgoDiNqv0eXtaka7YbRBeNh5omu8c+/8if42mAgwP2Cue9ue0N tHlOA6kZn6Ha6M1/fMOWOBo0gIzLoV+k3DfOZGKTChJsIAfk9rEeJtr6YyD2FhVcV/OD ezFCChVw+2MzTOuBNIOMpFhoxIlDOXIA8udZL0aRNt1WJV9hzbBUErufYTab4uBtJyhx bjBw== X-Received: by 10.182.105.231 with SMTP id gp7mr75754obb.81.1443561467875; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:17:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.172.205 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:17:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Kaushal Modi Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:08 -0400 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e014954ac8117a10520e95843 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). 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X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) --089e014954ac8117a10520e95843 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In an emacs -Q session, when you eval the below, (message "'Hey'") you get =E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99 "=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99" Note the difference here: This is what I get when I do "C-u C-x =3D" on the first single quote in the message form: position: 206 of 208 (99%), column: 14 character: ' (displayed as ') (codepoint 39, #o47, #x27) preferred charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV)) code point in charset: 0x27 script: latin syntax: ' which means: prefix category: .:Base, a:ASCII, l:Latin, r:Roman to input: type "C-x 8 RET 27" or "C-x 8 RET APOSTROPHE" buffer code: #x27 file code: #x27 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix) display: by this font (glyph code) xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-13-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x0A) Character code properties: customize what to show name: APOSTROPHE old-name: APOSTROPHE-QUOTE general-category: Po (Punctuation, Other) decomposition: (39) (''') There are text properties here: face font-lock-string-face fontified nil This is what I get when I do "C-u C-x =3D" on the first single quote in the *Messages* buffer (C-h e): position: 67 of 338 (20%), column: 0 character: =E2=80=99 (displayed as =E2=80=99) (codepoint 8217, = #o20031, #x2019) preferred charset: unicode (Unicode (ISO10646)) code point in charset: 0x2019 script: symbol syntax: . which means: punctuation category: .:Base, c:Chinese, h:Korean, j:Japanese to input: type "C-x 8 RET 2019" or "C-x 8 RET RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK" buffer code: #xE2 #x80 #x99 file code: #xE2 #x80 #x99 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix) display: by this font (glyph code) xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-13-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x6C1) Character code properties: customize what to show name: RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK old-name: SINGLE COMMA QUOTATION MARK general-category: Pf (Punctuation, Final quote) decomposition: (8217) ('=E2=80=99') I believe emacs should not be converting all APOSTROPHE characters to RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK characters. The displayed messages look just plain weird. To fix that, I would then need to replace all 'MSG' (apostrophe MSG apostrophe) type message displays to `MSG' (back quote MSG apostrophe), which is not practical. Or, is there a defcustom I need to set to prevent this character translation to curvy quotes? =E2=80=8BQuestion: Why is emacs converting all single =E2=80=8B -- Kaushal Modi --089e014954ac8117a10520e95843 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In an emacs -Q session, when you= eval the below,=C2=A0

(message "'Hey'")

you get

=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99
"= ;=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99"

Note the difference here:

This is what I get when I do "C= -u C-x =3D" on the first single quote in the message form:

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0position: 206 of 208 (99%),= column: 14
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cha= racter: ' (displayed as ') (codepoint 39, #o47, #x27)
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 preferred charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
code point in charset: 0x27
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0script: latin
=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0syntax: ' which means: prefix
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0category: .:Base, a:ASCII, l:L= atin, r:Roman
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0to input: type "C-x 8 RET 27" or "C-x 8 RET APOSTROPHE= "
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 buffer code: #x2= 7
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 file code: #x2= 7 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 display: by this font (glyph code)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*= -13-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x0A)

Char= acter code properties: customize what to show
=C2=A0 name:= APOSTROPHE
=C2=A0 old-name: APOSTROPHE-QUOTE
=C2=A0 general-category: Po (Punctuation, Other)
=C2= =A0 decomposition: (39) (''')

There are text properties here:
=C2=A0 face =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 font-lock-string-face
=C2=A0 fontified =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0nil<= /font>


This is what I get when I do "C-= u C-x =3D" on the first single quote in the *Messages* buffer (C-h e):=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0position: 67= of 338 (20%), column: 0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 character: =E2= =80=99 (displayed as =E2=80=99) (codepoint 8217, #o20031, #x2019)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 pr= eferred charset: unicode (Unicode (ISO10646))
<= font face=3D"trebuchet ms, sans-serif">code point in charset: 0x2019=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0script: symbol
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0syntax: . which means: punctuation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0category: .:Base, c:Chinese, h:Korean, j:Japanese
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to input: type "C-x 8 RET 2019" or &qu= ot;C-x 8 RET RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK"
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = buffer code: #xE2 #x80 #x99
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 file code: #= xE2 #x80 #x99 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 display: by this font (glyph code)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 xft:-unknown= -DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-13-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x6C1)

Character c= ode properties: customize what to show
=C2=A0 name: RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK
=C2=A0 ol= d-name: SINGLE COMMA QUOTATION MARK
=C2=A0 general-category: Pf (Punctuation, Fin= al quote)
=C2=A0 decomposition: (8217) ('=E2=80=99')

I believe emacs should not be converting all APOSTROPHE characters to = RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK characters. The displayed messages look just pl= ain weird. To fix that, I would then need to replace all 'MSG' (apo= strophe MSG apostrophe) type message displays to `MSG' (back quote MSG = apostrophe), which is not practical.

Or, is there a defc= ustom I need to set to prevent this character translation to curvy quotes?<= /div>


=E2=80=8BQuestion:

Why is emacs converting all single
=

=E2=80=8B

--
Ka= ushal Modi
--089e014954ac8117a10520e95843-- From unknown Sun Jun 22 08:11:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21588: 25.0.50: Single quotes becoming curvy quotes in message function Resent-From: Glenn Morris Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:33:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21588 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Kaushal Modi Cc: 21588@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21588-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21588.144356236210603 (code B ref 21588); Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:33:02 +0000 Received: (at 21588) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2015 21:32:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48245 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2Vt-0002kw-Ry for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:32:42 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36227) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2Vr-0002ko-Fx for 21588@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:32:40 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2Vq-0004Jz-EE for 21588@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:32:39 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:40732) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2Vp-0004JD-7r; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:32:37 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2Vm-0006g1-CR; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:32:34 -0400 From: Glenn Morris References: X-Spook: e-bomb Tijuana Sarin CIS Violence BART Nuclear facility X-Ran: PhdWAUvFwj(l"uCEp2j0(CCU~/r5I{T>I0bwwBe (Kaushal Modi's message of "Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:08 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) This has been discussed to death and is documented in NEWS. I'm not sure what else there could be left to say. From unknown Sun Jun 22 08:11:31 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.503 (Entity 5.503) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Kaushal Modi Subject: bug#21588: closed (Re: bug#21588: 25.0.50: Single quotes becoming curvy quotes in message function) Message-ID: References: X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 21588 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 21588@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 22:55:03 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1443567303-18374-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1443567303-18374-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #21588: 25.0.50: Single quotes becoming curvy quotes in message function which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 21588@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 21588: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D21588 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1443567303-18374-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 21588-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2015 22:54:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48290 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh3nT-0004m0-7k for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 18:54:55 -0400 Received: from mail-oi0-f53.google.com ([209.85.218.53]:35513) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh3nR-0004lr-8X for 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 18:54:53 -0400 Received: by oiww128 with SMTP id w128so12790922oiw.2 for <21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 15:54:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=gYgc+1Sg80YMIYagIsxVNkiSH17OeVlHKISaiR0EyyM=; b=DtogCaJEMEqGKgu5dzx6+PMqnPSSol5rg6m4sxLqKR3VvNy3a/DkMVGdJ60N1gxDVf gnc07YAopC8KdrWQkPsAMyMOg8zVHdYXICFyTR6jFBEZqrVJ4eDYZXFgyfv9ccWSSxP9 zvLD6RHFd+cadYKM0BduxXt23YpXSpT7JyV3nNvzBv5CUCmd7bCQGb7bug1njS5SZsNL VKyXbw5M0flHhH4LpM/caOo3MjHy/IKIcrm7lsbEzrDxKA5aIvx/nSZDp2nPLARM5JWf CVRktj5rM34aRwqKxYktvMxzYcTnQCH/uCLBjRT6+6YowV0izt0ffftbDF5ou5qQhLSf S5qw== X-Received: by 10.202.72.196 with SMTP id v187mr315501oia.134.1443567292364; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 15:54:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.172.205 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 15:54:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Kaushal Modi Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 18:54:12 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#21588: 25.0.50: Single quotes becoming curvy quotes in message function To: Glenn Morris , 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113dc94cabc07e0520eab3bf X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21588-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) --001a113dc94cabc07e0520eab3bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the reply. Among all the noise about curved quotes, I missed out the discussion about text-quoting-style. I started paying attention to that only recently when Paul reverted curved quote stuff in the documentation. I should have looked at NEWS; sorry about that. I got my answer; I need to set text-quoting-style to 'straight. For reference, (progn (message "text-quoting-style =3D default") (let ((text-quoting-style)) (message "'Hey'") (message "`Hey'")) (message "text-quoting-style =3D curve") (let ((text-quoting-style 'curve)) (message "'Hey'") (message "`Hey'")) (message "text-quoting-style =3D straight") (let ((text-quoting-style 'straight)) (message "'Hey'") (message "`Hey'")) (message "text-quoting-style =3D grave") (let ((text-quoting-style 'grave)) (message "'Hey'") (message "`Hey'"))) gives text-quoting-style =3D default =E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99 text-quoting-style =3D curve =E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99 text-quoting-style =3D straight 'Hey' [2 times] text-quoting-style =3D grave 'Hey' `Hey' -- Kaushal Modi On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Glenn Morris wrote: > > This has been discussed to death and is documented in NEWS. > I'm not sure what else there could be left to say. > --001a113dc94cabc07e0520eab3bf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the reply.=C2=A0

Among all th= e noise about curved quotes, I missed out the discussion about text-quoting= -style. I started paying attention to that only recently when Paul reverted= curved quote stuff in the documentation.
I should have looked at NEWS; sorry about= that.

I= got my answer; I need to set text-quoting-style to 'straight.

For reference,

(progn
=C2=A0 (messa= ge "text-quoting-style =3D default")
=C2=A0 (let ((text-quoting-style))
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message "'Hey'")
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message "`Hey'"))
=C2=A0 (message "text-quoting-style =3D curve")
=C2=A0 (let ((text-quoting-style 'curve= ))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message "'Hey&= #39;")
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message "= `Hey'"))
=C2=A0 (message "t= ext-quoting-style =3D straight")
=C2= =A0 (let ((text-quoting-style 'straight))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message "'Hey'")
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message "`Hey'"))
=C2=A0 (message "text-quoting-style =3D grave"= ;)
=C2=A0 (let ((text-quoting-style '= grave))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message "'= ;Hey'")
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message &= quot;`Hey'")))

gives


text-quoting-style =3D default
=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99
=E2=80=98H= ey=E2=80=99
text-quoting-style =3D curve<= /div>
=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99
=E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99
text= -quoting-style =3D straight
'Hey'= [2 times]
text-quoting-style =3D grave
'Hey'
`Hey'





--
Kaushal Modi

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Glenn Morri= s <rg= m@gnu.org> wrote:

This has been discussed to death and is documented in NEWS.
I'm not sure what else there could be left to say.

--001a113dc94cabc07e0520eab3bf-- ------------=_1443567303-18374-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2015 21:17:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48240 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2Ha-0002Oa-1C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:54 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:33570) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2HY-0002OQ-Do for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:53 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2HX-00079K-30 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:52 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD,HTML_MESSAGE,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:39643) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2HX-00079G-0D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:51 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43575) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2HV-0007vv-TV for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:50 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2HU-00078u-MN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:49 -0400 Received: from mail-ob0-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22d]:33989) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh2HU-00078p-GS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:48 -0400 Received: by obbda8 with SMTP id da8so16372351obb.1 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:17:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=/WJJl1aWNj807jbsIzpSa3c4o9FdudpBT8f3NeykXR0=; b=CEHzKVqzZa+q2f85redHkrucHOqvCosWrQe5OH77fcCBfRj5GSI+2D+PTcSjQbSZkq +j8agJJjhMPNVjkXIKXx8QinYyC4nYfH5B4tcEWxvmhvf28FCXmogd9jx1BvcvpMZtCd ILrlxsV/93Ljjlv40CDgoDiNqv0eXtaka7YbRBeNh5omu8c+/8if42mAgwP2Cue9ue0N tHlOA6kZn6Ha6M1/fMOWOBo0gIzLoV+k3DfOZGKTChJsIAfk9rEeJtr6YyD2FhVcV/OD ezFCChVw+2MzTOuBNIOMpFhoxIlDOXIA8udZL0aRNt1WJV9hzbBUErufYTab4uBtJyhx bjBw== X-Received: by 10.182.105.231 with SMTP id gp7mr75754obb.81.1443561467875; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:17:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.172.205 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:17:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Kaushal Modi Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 17:17:08 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: 25.0.50: Single quotes becoming curvy quotes in message function To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e014954ac8117a10520e95843 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) --089e014954ac8117a10520e95843 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In an emacs -Q session, when you eval the below, (message "'Hey'") you get =E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99 "=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99" Note the difference here: This is what I get when I do "C-u C-x =3D" on the first single quote in the message form: position: 206 of 208 (99%), column: 14 character: ' (displayed as ') (codepoint 39, #o47, #x27) preferred charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV)) code point in charset: 0x27 script: latin syntax: ' which means: prefix category: .:Base, a:ASCII, l:Latin, r:Roman to input: type "C-x 8 RET 27" or "C-x 8 RET APOSTROPHE" buffer code: #x27 file code: #x27 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix) display: by this font (glyph code) xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-13-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x0A) Character code properties: customize what to show name: APOSTROPHE old-name: APOSTROPHE-QUOTE general-category: Po (Punctuation, Other) decomposition: (39) (''') There are text properties here: face font-lock-string-face fontified nil This is what I get when I do "C-u C-x =3D" on the first single quote in the *Messages* buffer (C-h e): position: 67 of 338 (20%), column: 0 character: =E2=80=99 (displayed as =E2=80=99) (codepoint 8217, = #o20031, #x2019) preferred charset: unicode (Unicode (ISO10646)) code point in charset: 0x2019 script: symbol syntax: . which means: punctuation category: .:Base, c:Chinese, h:Korean, j:Japanese to input: type "C-x 8 RET 2019" or "C-x 8 RET RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK" buffer code: #xE2 #x80 #x99 file code: #xE2 #x80 #x99 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix) display: by this font (glyph code) xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-13-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x6C1) Character code properties: customize what to show name: RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK old-name: SINGLE COMMA QUOTATION MARK general-category: Pf (Punctuation, Final quote) decomposition: (8217) ('=E2=80=99') I believe emacs should not be converting all APOSTROPHE characters to RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK characters. The displayed messages look just plain weird. To fix that, I would then need to replace all 'MSG' (apostrophe MSG apostrophe) type message displays to `MSG' (back quote MSG apostrophe), which is not practical. Or, is there a defcustom I need to set to prevent this character translation to curvy quotes? =E2=80=8BQuestion: Why is emacs converting all single =E2=80=8B -- Kaushal Modi --089e014954ac8117a10520e95843 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In an emacs -Q session, when you= eval the below,=C2=A0

(message "'Hey'")

you get

=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99
"= ;=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99"

Note the difference here:

This is what I get when I do "C= -u C-x =3D" on the first single quote in the message form:

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0position: 206 of 208 (99%),= column: 14
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cha= racter: ' (displayed as ') (codepoint 39, #o47, #x27)
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 preferred charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
code point in charset: 0x27
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0script: latin
=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0syntax: ' which means: prefix
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0category: .:Base, a:ASCII, l:L= atin, r:Roman
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0to input: type "C-x 8 RET 27" or "C-x 8 RET APOSTROPHE= "
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 buffer code: #x2= 7
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 file code: #x2= 7 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 display: by this font (glyph code)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*= -13-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x0A)

Char= acter code properties: customize what to show
=C2=A0 name:= APOSTROPHE
=C2=A0 old-name: APOSTROPHE-QUOTE
=C2=A0 general-category: Po (Punctuation, Other)
=C2= =A0 decomposition: (39) (''')

There are text properties here:
=C2=A0 face =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 font-lock-string-face
=C2=A0 fontified =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0nil<= /font>


This is what I get when I do "C-= u C-x =3D" on the first single quote in the *Messages* buffer (C-h e):=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0position: 67= of 338 (20%), column: 0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 character: =E2= =80=99 (displayed as =E2=80=99) (codepoint 8217, #o20031, #x2019)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 pr= eferred charset: unicode (Unicode (ISO10646))
<= font face=3D"trebuchet ms, sans-serif">code point in charset: 0x2019=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0script: symbol
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0syntax: . which means: punctuation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0category: .:Base, c:Chinese, h:Korean, j:Japanese
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to input: type "C-x 8 RET 2019" or &qu= ot;C-x 8 RET RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK"
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = buffer code: #xE2 #x80 #x99
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 file code: #= xE2 #x80 #x99 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 display: by this font (glyph code)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 xft:-unknown= -DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-13-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x6C1)

Character c= ode properties: customize what to show
=C2=A0 name: RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK
=C2=A0 ol= d-name: SINGLE COMMA QUOTATION MARK
=C2=A0 general-category: Pf (Punctuation, Fin= al quote)
=C2=A0 decomposition: (8217) ('=E2=80=99')

I believe emacs should not be converting all APOSTROPHE characters to = RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK characters. The displayed messages look just pl= ain weird. To fix that, I would then need to replace all 'MSG' (apo= strophe MSG apostrophe) type message displays to `MSG' (back quote MSG = apostrophe), which is not practical.

Or, is there a defc= ustom I need to set to prevent this character translation to curvy quotes?<= /div>


=E2=80=8BQuestion:

Why is emacs converting all single
=

=E2=80=8B

--
Ka= ushal Modi
--089e014954ac8117a10520e95843-- ------------=_1443567303-18374-1-- From unknown Sun Jun 22 08:11:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21588: 25.0.50: Single quotes becoming curvy quotes in message function Resent-From: Kaushal Modi Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 01:06:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21588 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Glenn Morris , 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert , Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D21588.144357514530327 (code D ref 21588); Wed, 30 Sep 2015 01:06:02 +0000 Received: (at 21588-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Sep 2015 01:05:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48337 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh5q4-0007t4-CF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:05:44 -0400 Received: from mail-ob0-f175.google.com ([209.85.214.175]:34820) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zh5q1-0007sv-M4 for 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:05:42 -0400 Received: by obbzf10 with SMTP id zf10so19864019obb.2 for <21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 18:05:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=9Myt6MadW+ZNP09W2pHwJ19kX/NLkH+sPlwLQ7I+imo=; b=diIBWjb0/WX8qihaY6II7aWg7MLes1iw1TMGsZBIS4+Qf209l7tsycct0VfDiPOwmK 7fuOm7lRv/8x6ym2wuRwmVZzzK1PK37LjzYbEneI42j6PcEb7cUUSvFBdilhAcpR1SS4 34g+QXf6zQhQ8HLvi+kz2oAAi/jsevxdMR0Otx13a047GOOulWI4cgmit8UEOia2ZRdp 7HMcjLnwD84anfCDRSR6idcfR0LhloyOKpemSxDWJRD2JvABUQw0PGmSdbAe8FY6zTFQ K5J16TBrJ6O3NcZWE0uQ8rkQmbgK9G62kGEGfkXiOBIPa/sU8gBxOHM/vPW8bLju6BqS c1Kg== X-Received: by 10.182.246.101 with SMTP id xv5mr585920obc.5.1443575140915; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 18:05:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.172.205 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 18:05:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Kaushal Modi Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 21:05:01 -0400 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2ef9a7b297b0520ec875d X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) --001a11c2ef9a7b297b0520ec875d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Glenn, Can you please re-open this bug if the below argument makes sense? It doesn't feel right that (message "'Hey'") gets displayed as =E2=80=99Hey= =E2=80=99. The display looks "buggy" with the default value of text-quoting-style. A user shouldn't be perplexed with that kind of display in an emacs -Q session. It just feels wrong. It would make more sense to have the default value of text-quoting-style as 'grave. That way, (message "'Hey'") prints 'Hey' and (message "`Hey'") prints `Hey'; there are not surprises. If we really want the curved quotes rendering, 'Hey' should NOT be rendered as =E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99. It might be fine to render `Hey' as =E2=80=98Hey= =E2=80=99. But having the default setup render a common string like 'Hey' with identical curved quotes just looks wrong. Please review and reconsider based on the output given by the elisp snippet in my previous email. IMO, we are missing a "middle ground" option where if text-quoting-style is set to 'middle-ground, (message "'Hey'") would yield 'Hey' (preserved apostrophes) and (message "`Hey'") would give =E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99 (balanc= ed curved quotes). If the middle-ground option is decided to not be added, then fine. But please don't have the unbalanced curved quotes =E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99 as the= default. I ended up opening this bug report after having quite a few emacs packages print stuff with unbalanced curved quotes and that hit my OCD bar. -- Kaushal Modi On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 6:54 PM, Kaushal Modi wrote: > Thanks for the reply. > > Among all the noise about curved quotes, I missed out the discussion abou= t > text-quoting-style. I started paying attention to that only recently when > Paul reverted curved quote stuff in the documentation. > > I should have looked at NEWS; sorry about that. > > I got my answer; I need to set text-quoting-style to 'straight. > > For reference, > > (progn > (message "text-quoting-style =3D default") > (let ((text-quoting-style)) > (message "'Hey'") > (message "`Hey'")) > (message "text-quoting-style =3D curve") > (let ((text-quoting-style 'curve)) > (message "'Hey'") > (message "`Hey'")) > (message "text-quoting-style =3D straight") > (let ((text-quoting-style 'straight)) > (message "'Hey'") > (message "`Hey'")) > (message "text-quoting-style =3D grave") > (let ((text-quoting-style 'grave)) > (message "'Hey'") > (message "`Hey'"))) > > gives > > > text-quoting-style =3D default > =E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99 > =E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99 > text-quoting-style =3D curve > =E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99 > =E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99 > text-quoting-style =3D straight > 'Hey' [2 times] > text-quoting-style =3D grave > 'Hey' > `Hey' > > > > > > > -- > Kaushal Modi > > On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Glenn Morris wrote: > >> >> This has been discussed to death and is documented in NEWS. >> I'm not sure what else there could be left to say. >> > > --001a11c2ef9a7b297b0520ec875d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Glenn,

Can you please re-open this bu= g if the below argument makes sense?

It doesn't feel right that (message "= 'Hey'") gets displayed as=C2=A0=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99. The disp= lay looks "buggy" with the default value of text-quoting-style. A= user shouldn't be perplexed with that kind of display in an emacs -Q s= ession. It just feels wrong.

It would make more sense to have the default value of = text-quoting-style as 'grave. That way, (message "'Hey'&qu= ot;) prints 'Hey' and (message "`Hey'") prints `Hey&#= 39;; there are not surprises.

If we really want the curved quotes rendering, 'H= ey' should NOT be rendered as =E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99. It might be fine t= o render `Hey' as=C2=A0=E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99. But having the default se= tup render a common string like 'Hey' with identical curved quotes = just looks wrong.


Please review and reconsider = based on the output given by the elisp snippet in my previous email.
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:'trebuchet ms',san= s-serif;font-size:small">
IMO, we are mi= ssing a "middle ground" option where if text-quoting-style is set= to 'middle-ground, (message "'Hey'") would yield = 9;Hey' (preserved apostrophes) and (message "`Hey'") woul= d give =E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99 (balanced curved quotes).

If the middle-ground option = is decided to not be added, then fine. But please don't have the unbala= nced curved quotes =E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99 as the default.

I ended up opening this bu= g report after having quite a few emacs packages print stuff with unbalance= d curved quotes and that hit my OCD bar.


= --
Kaushal Modi

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 6:54 PM, Kaushal Mod= i <kaushal.modi@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks for the rep= ly.=C2=A0


I should have looked at NEW= S; sorry about that.

I got my answer; I need to set text-quoting-style to 'stra= ight.

Fo= r reference,

(progn
= =C2=A0 (message "text-quoting-style =3D default")
=C2=A0 (let ((text-quoting-style))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message "'Hey'")
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message "`Hey'"))
<= div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0 (message "text-quoting-style =3D cu= rve")
=C2=A0 (let ((text-quoting-sty= le 'curve))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message &q= uot;'Hey'")
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (m= essage "`Hey'"))
=C2=A0 (me= ssage "text-quoting-style =3D straight")
=C2=A0 (let ((text-quoting-style 'straight))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message "'Hey'")
<= div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message "`Hey'"))<= /div>
=C2=A0 (message "text-quoting-style = =3D grave")
=C2=A0 (let ((text-quoti= ng-style 'grave))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (mess= age "'Hey'")
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 (message "`Hey'")))
gives


text-quoting-style =3D default
=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99
=E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99
text-quoting-st= yle =3D curve
=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99
=
=E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99
text-quoting-style =3D straight
'Hey' [2 times]
text-quoting-sty= le =3D grave
'Hey'
`Hey'

<= div class=3D"gmail_default">




--
Kaushal Modi

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Glenn Morri= s <rg= m@gnu.org> wrote:

This has been discussed to death and is documented in NEWS.
I'm not sure what else there could be left to say.


--001a11c2ef9a7b297b0520ec875d-- From unknown Sun Jun 22 08:11:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21588: 25.0.50: Single quotes becoming curvy quotes in message function Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:12:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21588 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Kaushal Modi , 21588@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21588-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21588.144364746427926 (code B ref 21588); Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:12:01 +0000 Received: (at 21588) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Sep 2015 21:11:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49608 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhOeW-0007GL-Iy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 17:11:04 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:18589) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhOeU-0007G8-7Z for 21588@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 17:11:02 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t8ULB1Xw022258 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:11:01 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8ULB1PF027734 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:11:01 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8ULB0DB011196; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:11:01 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:10:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="__1443647460738196008abhmp0005.oracle.com" X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) --__1443647460738196008abhmp0005.oracle.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't you mean "beautiful"? =C2=A0;-) That's the whole idea behind this, AFAICT. =C2=A0 The displayed messages look just plain weird.=20 --__1443647460738196008abhmp0005.oracle.com Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Don'= t you mean "beautiful"? =C2=A0;-)

That's the whole idea behind this, AFAICT.

 

=

The displayed= messages look just plain weird.

--__1443647460738196008abhmp0005.oracle.com-- From unknown Sun Jun 22 08:11:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21588: 25.0.50: Single quotes becoming curvy quotes in message function Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 22:41:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21588 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Kaushal Modi , Glenn Morris , 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D21588.14436528593691 (code D ref 21588); Wed, 30 Sep 2015 22:41:01 +0000 Received: (at 21588-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Sep 2015 22:40:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49654 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhQ3W-0000xS-MX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 18:40:59 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:57174) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhQ3U-0000xK-62 for 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 18:40:57 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17DBA160EA8; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 15:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id cqYjl3Tq7efu; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 15:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A50160EAF; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 15:40:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id KFE22JdH5y36; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 15:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3A4F4160EA8; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 15:40:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Eggert References: Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <560C64F5.3060007@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 15:40:53 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Kaushal Modi wrote: > It doesn't feel right that (message "'Hey'") gets displayed as =E2=80=99= Hey=E2=80=99. This shouldn't happen if your ~/.emacs has (setq text-quoting-style=20 'grave) or (setq text-quoting-style 'straight), so I assume the issue=20 came up because your text-quoting-style is =E2=80=98curve=E2=80=99 or def= aults to =E2=80=98curve=E2=80=99. The initial version of the =E2=80=98curve=E2=80=99 code behaved as you su= ggested, and=20 left isolated apostrophes alone. But as Dmitry pointed out, apostrophe=20 in English is represented by right single quotation mark as standard=20 typographic practice in fonts with directed quotes. In traditional=20 Emacs usage most isolated apostrophes in docstrings and diagnostics are=20 English apostrophes, so it seemed appropriate to default to=20 transliterating them as in English, of course with an escape hatch for=20 the exceptions intended to be straight apostrophes. So I changed the=20 code to translate all non-escaped apostrophes. This simplified the=20 transformation rules, which was also a win. Although there were a few diagnostics in Elisp that quoted English=20 phrases 'like this', as I recall RMS said that directed quotes were=20 preferred, so I fixed the instances I found to quote `like this' in=20 message format strings. Undoubtedly I missed some instances and so some=20 minor display glitches remain, but they can be fixed as they turn up. To get typewriter-style straight quoting in your own code, independent=20 of text-quoting-style, you can write (message "%s" "'Hey'"). From unknown Sun Jun 22 08:11:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21588: 25.0.50: Single quotes becoming curvy quotes in message function Resent-From: Kaushal Modi Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 03:55:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21588 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert Cc: Glenn Morris , Eli Zaretskii , Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Monnier , 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D21588.144367168631146 (code D ref 21588); Thu, 01 Oct 2015 03:55:02 +0000 Received: (at 21588-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2015 03:54:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49749 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhUxB-00086H-I5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 23:54:46 -0400 Received: from mail-ob0-f172.google.com ([209.85.214.172]:32902) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhUx9-000868-3t for 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 23:54:44 -0400 Received: by obbbh8 with SMTP id bh8so48192565obb.0 for <21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 20:54:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=+58uALmnnUT113sqTGc0M5kG6hxDmWm4jUzXqfkNMAA=; b=BEcW4KMSV2dby5hk8OlZBnnD6bQHWEsZX/HzYP5OAtdsEJlegpGH+peL4XU8jwwuoM GmhiYqN9s68kuG9jk/wtl/1VMRTIbLzK9Ym71dC3ihGkQJtU6GPYK9Djn/FS9copeMfu wdun6zG35F6Ny160xkeUe3jZLImnfFzRlyXPdAZn6CmQFoQGnbrDItAFU6XN0sf3I0hs ndexGgLSijA7BKO0MvVZ3AK8m5Oi/+XVr6E4sanFELW33mDuz6DBTCyIPMHXofzRmCzN x2cVXrdDZcYaUMpe5GcvOUUlZHb/RPIOSdgv/oXDpiCD4W/X7Ff/1kQEpYPAEe2xOYQh F1cg== X-Received: by 10.60.36.202 with SMTP id s10mr4799942oej.0.1443671682320; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 20:54:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.172.205 with HTTP; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 20:54:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <560C64F5.3060007@cs.ucla.edu> References: <560C64F5.3060007@cs.ucla.edu> From: Kaushal Modi Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 23:54:02 -0400 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013a14eacc125905210301bb X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --089e013a14eacc125905210301bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > This shouldn't happen if your ~/.emacs has (setq text-quoting-style 'grave) or (setq text-quoting-style 'straight), so I assume the issue came up because your text-quoting-style is =E2=80=98curve=E2=80=99 or defaults t= o =E2=80=98curve=E2=80=99. Correct, =E2=80=8B `text-quoting-style` was default (nil) and with that, (message "'Hey'") got displayed as =E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B =E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99. Now I need to set =E2=80=8B `text-quoting-style` to 'grave so that apostrophes stay apostrophes and grave quotes remain grave quotes; no surprising quote conversions. I would vote for this to be the default. > I missed some instances and so some minor display glitches remain, but they can be fixed as they turn up. Thanks, I am having difficulty grepping for an expression that has both single and double quotes. But as I find such cases, I will report them or submit a patch. > To get typewriter-style straight quoting in your own code, independent of text-quoting-style, you can write (message "%s" "'Hey'"). That is good to know, thank you! Summary: - Can the default be changed to 'grave? - For the message forms that I or anyone else writes in future, is it correct if I says that you must always use `Hey' format instead of 'Hey' format? If so, we need to update the documentation that warns the user to use the correct style. =E2=80=8BDiscussion: =E2=80=8B As per "C-h i g (emacs) Quotation Marks" (excerpt below), we have contradicting information. One common way to quote is the typewriter convention, which quotes using straight apostrophes 'like this' or double-quotes "like this". Another common way is the curved quote convention, which uses left and right single or double quotation marks =E2=80=98like this=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=9Cli= ke this=E2=80=9D. Typewriter quotes are simple and portable; curved quotes are less ambiguous and typically look nicer. On one hand, the default text-quoting-style value of nil will render (message 'like this') as =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B =E2=80=99like this=E2=80=99. On the other hand, it is mentioned that typewriter quotes are simple and portable. I agree =E2=80=8Bthat the typewriter quotes =E2=80=8B(straight quotes or apostrophes as I have been referring in my ema= ils) =E2=80=8B being simple and portable; the user does not need to think of whether to enter ` or '. But then the default value of text-quoting-style as 'grave makes more sense. =E2=80=8B We would not want unwarned people using (message "'Hey'") in defa= ult emacs sessions be faced with =E2=80=8Bthe =E2=80=8B =E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99 =E2=80=8B with unbalanced quotes.=E2=80=8B If we want to keep the default of text-quoting-style as nil (or 'curve), more logic needs to be added that decides whether left curly quote or right curly quote should be used, which might have some performance impact as we then need to check what the previous character is, what the next character is, etc to decide if the current apostrophe needs to be replaced with a left or a right quote. Here =E2=80=8Bare few common cases that I can think of : =E2=80=8B =E2=80=8BCASE 1: 'Hey' -> =E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B =E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99 CASE 2: it's awesome -> =E2=80=8B =E2=80=8Bit =E2=80=99 =E2=80=8Bs awesome CASE 3: my sisters' weddings -> =E2=80=8B sisters =E2=80=99 =E2=80=8B weddings =E2=80=8BCASE 4: He said 'It's awesome!' -> He said =E2=80=98It=E2=80=99s awesome!=E2=80=99 (It should have rather b= een -- He said "It's awesome!" (use of double quotes). But I am just putting here all the apostrophe cases I can think of..) Based on above cases, =E2=80=8BThe apostrophe is replaced with left quote if, (AND there's a non-space character after the apostrophe (OR the apostrophe is first character in the line there's white space before the apostrophe)) =E2=80=8B The apostrophe is replaced with right quote if=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B there's a non-space character =E2=80=8Bbefore the apostrophe OR, probably.. If =E2=80=8B there's a non-space character =E2=80=8Bbefore the apostrophe, replace it with right quote, else use left quote. =E2=80=8BI am by no means a literature or typography expert. So I am sure t= hat the above 4 cases are not enough to define the rules for left/right quotes. I just wanted to emphasize that we need more intelligence in deciding which quote to use if we want to keep the 'curly or nil as the default value of text-quoting-style.=E2=80=8B -- Kaushal Modi --089e013a14eacc125905210301bb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> This shouldn&= #39;t happen if your ~/.emacs has (setq text-quoting-style 'grave) or (= setq text-quoting-style 'straight), so I assume the issue came up becau= se your text-quoting-style is =E2=80=98curve=E2=80=99 or defaults to =E2=80= =98curve=E2=80=99.

Correct,
= =E2=80=8B=C2=A0
`text-quoting-style` was default (nil) and with that, = (message "'Hey'") got displayed as
=E2=80=8B=C2=A0
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99.
Now I need to set<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:'trebuchet ms',san= s-serif;font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8B=C2=A0
`text-quoting-= style` to 'grave so that apostrophes stay apostrophes and grave quotes = remain grave quotes; no surprising quote conversions. I would vote for this= to be the default.

> I missed some instances and so some minor d= isplay glitches remain, but they can be fixed as they turn up.

Thank= s, I am having difficulty grepping for an expression that has both single a= nd double quotes. But as I find such cases, I will report them or submit a = patch.

> To get typewriter-style straight quoting in your own cod= e, independent of text-quoting-style, you can write (message "%s"= "'Hey'").

That is good to know, thank you!
Summary:
- Can the default be changed to 'grave?
- For the messa= ge forms that I or anyone else writes in future, is it correct if I says th= at you must always use `Hey' format instead of 'Hey' format? If= so, we need to update the documentation that warns the user to use the cor= rect style.

=E2=80=8BDiscus= sion:
=E2=80=8B

As per "C-h i g (ema= cs) Quotation Marks" (excerpt below), we have contradicting informatio= n.

One common way to quote is the typewriter convention, which quote= s using
straight apostrophes 'like this' or double-quotes "= like this".=C2=A0 Another
common way is the curved quote convention= , which uses left and right
single or double quotation marks =E2=80=98li= ke this=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=9Clike this=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Typewriter
quotes= are simple and portable; curved quotes are less ambiguous and
typically= look nicer.

On one hand, the default text-quoting-style value of ni= l will render (message 'like this') as
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=99like this=E2=80=99.=C2=A0
On the other hand, it= is mentioned that typewriter quotes are simple and portable.

I agree
=E2=80=8Bthat the typewriter
=C2=A0quotes =E2=80=8B(straight quotes or apostro= phes as I have been referring in my emails) =E2=80=8B
being simple and= portable; the user does not need to think of whether to enter ` or '. = But then the default value of text-quoting-style as 'grave makes more s= ense.
=E2=80=8B We would not want u= nwarned people using (message "'Hey'") in default emacs s= essions be faced with =E2=80=8Bthe=C2=A0
=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=99Hey=E2=80=99
=E2=80= =8B with unbalanced quotes.=E2=80=8B


If we want to keep the default of text-quoting-style = as nil (or 'curve), more logic needs to be added that decides whether l= eft curly quote or right curly quote should be used, which might have some = performance impact as we then need to check what the previous character is,= what the next character is, etc to decide if the current apostrophe needs = to be replaced with a left or a right quote.

Here
=E2=80=8Bare
=C2=A0few common cases that I can think= of
:
=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8BCASE 1:=C2=A0'Hey' ->
=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99
=
CASE 2: it's awesome -> =E2=80=8B
=
=E2=80=8Bit
=E2= =80=99
=E2=80=8Bs awes= ome
CASE 3: my sisters' weddings -> =E2=80=8B
=
sisters
=E2=80= =99
=E2=80=8B weddings=
<= font face=3D"trebuchet ms, sans-serif">
=E2=80=8BCASE 4: He said 'It's awesome!' -&= gt;=C2=A0
He said=C2=A0=E2=80=98It=E2=80=99s awesome!=E2=80=99 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(It should have rather been --= =C2=A0= He said "It's awesome!" (use of double quotes). But I am just= putting here all the apostrophe cases I can think of..)

Based on above cases,

=E2=80=8BThe apostrophe is replaced with left= quote if,=C2=A0

(AND there's a non-space character after the apostrophe
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (OR the apostroph= e is first character in the line
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0there's white space before= the apostrophe)) =E2=80=8B

The apostrophe is replac= ed with right quote if=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B

=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
there&#= 39;s a non-space character
=E2=80=8Bbefore
=C2=A0the apostrophe
<= /div>
<= br>

OR, probably..

If =E2=80=8B
there's a non-space character=C2=A0
=E2=80=8Bbefore
=C2=A0the apost= rophe, replace it with right quote, else use left quote.
=

=E2=80=8BI am by no means a literature or typography expert. So I= am sure that the above 4 cases are not enough to define the rules for left= /right quotes. I just wanted to emphasize that we need more intelligence in= deciding which quote to use if we want to keep the 'curly or nil as th= e default value of text-quoting-style.=E2=80=8B


--
Kaushal Modi
<= /div>
--089e013a14eacc125905210301bb-- From unknown Sun Jun 22 08:11:31 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21588: 25.0.50: Single quotes becoming curvy quotes in message function Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 06:52:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21588 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Kaushal Modi Cc: Glenn Morris , Eli Zaretskii , Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Monnier , 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D21588.144376867715292 (code D ref 21588); Fri, 02 Oct 2015 06:52:01 +0000 Received: (at 21588-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2015 06:51:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51214 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhuBX-0003yY-Om for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Oct 2015 02:51:16 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:42416) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZhuBU-0003yO-JO for 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Oct 2015 02:51:14 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7671160EC5; Thu, 1 Oct 2015 23:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id JcuMo8DXFD2j; Thu, 1 Oct 2015 23:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE889160EC7; Thu, 1 Oct 2015 23:51:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id OGFogujTHwsw; Thu, 1 Oct 2015 23:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8FB3A160EC5; Thu, 1 Oct 2015 23:51:09 -0700 (PDT) References: <560C64F5.3060007@cs.ucla.edu> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <560E295C.6000402@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 23:51:08 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020203030508030106020300" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020203030508030106020300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 09/30/2015 08:54 PM, Kaushal Modi wrote: > - Can the default be changed to 'grave? The GNU coding standards were changed a while ago to recommend against gr= ave=20 quoting in diagnostics and many GNU applications have already changed (e.= g.,=20 coreutils, GCC). Although Emacs has been one of the holdouts, now is as = good a=20 time as any to make the move. > we need to update the documentation that warns the user to use the corr= ect style. Thanks, done in the attached patch, which I just installed in the master = branch. > it is mentioned that typewriter quotes are simple and portable. That discussion was intended to be about text files, so I added a phrase = to that=20 effect in the attached patch. This should help resolve the seeming contr= adiction. > If we want to keep the default of text-quoting-style as nil (or 'curve)= , more logic needs to be added that decides whether left curly quote or r= ight curly quote should be used, which might have some performance impact= as we then need to check what the previous character is, what the next c= haracter is, etc to decide if the current apostrophe needs to be replaced= with a left or a right quote. It=E2=80=99s not a significant performance impact. It=E2=80=99s more a h= assle of documenting a=20 more-complex approach. That is partly why I gave up on such an approach = after=20 implementing it, and went with the simpler approach that is in Emacs mast= er now. > CASE 1: 'Hey' -> =E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99 > CASE 2: it's awesome -> it=E2=80=99s awesome > CASE 3: my sisters' weddings -> my sisters=E2=80=99 weddings > CASE 4: He said 'It's awesome!' -> He said =E2=80=98It=E2=80=99s aweso= me!=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98message=E2=80=99 already does cases 2 and 3 that way, as well as= the 2nd apostrophe in=20 case 4. The remaining cases are quite rare in Emacs diagnostics, as the = Emacs=20 style uses directed quotes when single-quoting. > If there's a non-space character before the apostrophe, replace it with= right quote, else use left quote. That would mishandle common English phrases like =E2=80=9C'60s pop cultur= e=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Crock=20 'n' roll=E2=80=9D. (These phrases don=E2=80=99t occur in Emacs diagnosti= cs either, but as long=20 as we=E2=80=99re being pedantic....) Any heuristics will go awry sometim= es so we need=20 some way to override the heuristics; and once we have such an override, t= here is=20 a real benefit to keeping the heuristics simple. --------------020203030508030106020300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="0001-Fix-a-few-problems-with-directed-quotes.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-Fix-a-few-problems-with-directed-quotes.patch" RnJvbSBkZDYzNDZlMDBjMDkxMGIxNmYxYmQxOTVlNWU5NGY2YWMxZDY5NmVlIE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBQYXVsIEVnZ2VydCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1 PgpEYXRlOiBUaHUsIDEgT2N0IDIwMTUgMjE6NDI6NTMgLTA3MDAKU3ViamVjdDogW1BBVENI XSBGaXggYSBmZXcgcHJvYmxlbXMgd2l0aCBkaXJlY3RlZCBxdW90ZXMKClRoaXMgaXMgaW4g cmVzcG9uc2UgdG8gYSBwcm9ibGVtIHJlcG9ydCBieSBLYXVzaGFsIE1vZGkgaW46Cmh0dHA6 Ly9idWdzLmdudS5vcmcvMjE1ODgjMjUKKiBsaXNwL2NlZGV0L21vZGUtbG9jYWwuZWwgKGRl c2NyaWJlLW1vZGUtbG9jYWwtb3ZlcmxvYWQpOgoqIGxpc3AvZW1hY3MtbGlzcC9ieXRlY29t 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"Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 16:51:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21588 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert Cc: Glenn Morris , Eli Zaretskii , Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Monnier , 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D21588.144380464510318 (code D ref 21588); Fri, 02 Oct 2015 16:51:02 +0000 Received: (at 21588-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2015 16:50:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52357 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zi3Xg-0002gM-4f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Oct 2015 12:50:44 -0400 Received: from mail-ob0-f170.google.com ([209.85.214.170]:35557) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zi3Xc-0002gC-EZ for 21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Oct 2015 12:50:41 -0400 Received: by obbzf10 with SMTP id zf10so86347881obb.2 for <21588-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 02 Oct 2015 09:50:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=VKDbtoawX0kRfE/hqepL+QK+fq5uaAErIWY09GErvco=; b=AmLRdIuhGVrYaNv/KKaQ2ZgE9HqfHnO7S9Hw6odzTjM/rnI6M3x10/gyo178X2grIR TGFxDS/VTn3AhzqMqxhz8tjwu1FBkr5oQxDE9VWkRO65RyKOxLFS9OYDCUfs2twLP0of WZRaEiWzXxBdv+dg4oY6MBq7Qg3+ovTEWI8czVpSDCyKV/BNQ7cGYYe66pL0eCDEQw7K Zv0d70vyThFAPhXYyusRC2IhWm1QuILQso+yIYA7FGL8AD9fv6bf8f6dX7goi/NJ1DYu RkLyhmj8J2hFfLZrWacRRYyA6EpD6XbQFistd9rQWX5pUtnKXLYzE4XC4AjbZUw9jgMu xxOQ== X-Received: by 10.182.105.231 with SMTP id gp7mr9856234obb.81.1443804639605; Fri, 02 Oct 2015 09:50:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.172.205 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Oct 2015 09:50:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <560E295C.6000402@cs.ucla.edu> References: <560C64F5.3060007@cs.ucla.edu> <560E295C.6000402@cs.ucla.edu> From: Kaushal Modi Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2015 12:50:00 -0400 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e014954acab4f9a052121f688 X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) --089e014954acab4f9a052121f688 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable tl;dr: Thanks Paul, this is awesome! --- > The GNU coding standards were changed a while ago to recommend against grave quoting in diagnostics and many GNU applications have already changed (e.g., coreutils, GCC). Although Emacs has been one of the holdouts, now is as good a time as any to make the move. I was unaware of that. Thanks for letting me know. For future reference for anyone else, you can learn more about this "C-h i g (standards) Quote Characters". > Thanks, done in the attached patch, which I just installed in the master branch. Thanks! For future reference for anyone else, these clarifications can be viewed in the following info nodes: - (elisp) Displaying Messages - (elisp) Signaling Errors > That discussion was intended to be about text files, so I added a phrase to that effect in the attached patch. This should help resolve the seeming contradiction. - (emacs) Quotation Marks > Any heuristics will go awry sometimes so we need some way to override the heuristics; and once we have such an override, there is a real benefit to keeping the heuristics simple. I agree to that argument. Thanks for fixing the quotes in string formats in few other .el files. In summary: - I agree with you now that the current default value of text-quoting-style is good. - I will stick to that default and find places where the quoting needs to be updated from 'Hey' to `Hey'. - I will submit patches/pull requests wherever I find such instances within emacs or in external packages. Thank you for all your time and effort in making this clear and fixing up the documentation and .el files. -- Kaushal Modi On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 2:51 AM, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 09/30/2015 08:54 PM, Kaushal Modi wrote: > > - Can the default be changed to 'grave? > > The GNU coding standards were changed a while ago to recommend against > grave quoting in diagnostics and many GNU applications have already chang= ed > (e.g., coreutils, GCC). Although Emacs has been one of the holdouts, now > is as good a time as any to make the move. > > we need to update the documentation that warns the user to use the correc= t >> style. >> > > Thanks, done in the attached patch, which I just installed in the master > branch. > > > it is mentioned that typewriter quotes are simple and portable. > > That discussion was intended to be about text files, so I added a phrase > to that effect in the attached patch. This should help resolve the seemi= ng > contradiction. > > If we want to keep the default of text-quoting-style as nil (or 'curve), >> more logic needs to be added that decides whether left curly quote or ri= ght >> curly quote should be used, which might have some performance impact as = we >> then need to check what the previous character is, what the next charact= er >> is, etc to decide if the current apostrophe needs to be replaced with a >> left or a right quote. >> > > It=E2=80=99s not a significant performance impact. It=E2=80=99s more a h= assle of > documenting a more-complex approach. That is partly why I gave up on suc= h > an approach after implementing it, and went with the simpler approach tha= t > is in Emacs master now. > > > CASE 1: 'Hey' -> =E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99 > > CASE 2: it's awesome -> it=E2=80=99s awesome > > CASE 3: my sisters' weddings -> my sisters=E2=80=99 weddings > > CASE 4: He said 'It's awesome!' -> He said =E2=80=98It=E2=80=99s awesom= e!=E2=80=99 > > =E2=80=98message=E2=80=99 already does cases 2 and 3 that way, as well as= the 2nd > apostrophe in case 4. The remaining cases are quite rare in Emacs > diagnostics, as the Emacs style uses directed quotes when single-quoting. > > If there's a non-space character before the apostrophe, replace it with >> right quote, else use left quote. >> > > That would mishandle common English phrases like =E2=80=9C'60s pop cultur= e=E2=80=9D and > =E2=80=9Crock 'n' roll=E2=80=9D. (These phrases don=E2=80=99t occur in E= macs diagnostics either, > but as long as we=E2=80=99re being pedantic....) Any heuristics will go = awry > sometimes so we need some way to override the heuristics; and once we hav= e > such an override, there is a real benefit to keeping the heuristics simpl= e. > --089e014954acab4f9a052121f688 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
tl;dr: Thanks Paul, this is awes= ome!

---=

>=C2= =A0The GNU co= ding standards were changed a while ago to recommend against grave quoting = in diagnostics and many GNU applications have already changed (e.g., coreut= ils, GCC).=C2=A0 Although Emacs has been one of the holdouts, now is as goo= d a time as any to make the move.

I was unaware of that. Thanks for letting me know. For fut= ure reference for anyone else, you can learn more about this "C-h i g= =C2=A0(standards) Quote Characters&= quot;.

>=C2=A0Thanks, done in= the attached patch, which I just installed in the master branch.

Thanks= ! For future reference for anyone else, these clarifications can be viewed = in the following info nodes:=C2=A0

-=C2=A0(elisp) Displaying Messages
-=C2=A0(elisp) Signaling Errors=

>= ;=C2=A0That discussion was intended= to be about text files, so I added a phrase to that effect in the attached= patch.=C2=A0 This should help resolve the seeming contradiction.

-=C2= =A0(emacs) Quotation Marks

>=C2=A0Any heuristics will go awry sometimes so we need s= ome way to override the heuristics; and once we have such an override, ther= e is a real benefit to keeping the heuristics simple.

I agree to that argument.

Thanks for fixing the quotes in str= ing formats in few other .el files.
<= span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">
In summary:
- I agree with you no= w that the current default value of text-quoting-style is good.
- I will stick to that default and find places where the quot= ing needs to be updated from 'Hey' to `Hey'.
- I will submit patches/pull requests wherever I find such instances= within emacs or in external packages.

=
Thank you for all your time and effort in making this cl= ear and fixing up the documentation and .el files.=C2=A0


=

--
Kaushal Modi

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 2:51 AM, Paul Eggert = <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
On 09/30/2015 08:54 PM, Kaushal Modi wrote:
> - Can the default be changed to 'grave?

 The GNU coding standards were changed a while ago to recommend against grav= e quoting in diagnostics and many GNU applications have already changed (e.= g., coreutils, GCC).=C2=A0 Although Emacs has been one of the holdouts, now= is as good a time as any to make the move.

we need to update the documentation that warns the user to use the correct = style.

 Thanks, done in the attached patch, which I just installed in the master br= anch.

> it is mentioned that typewriter quotes are simple and portable.

 That discussion was intended to be about text files, so I added a phrase to= that effect in the attached patch.=C2=A0 This should help resolve the seem= ing contradiction.

If we want to keep the default of text-quoting-style as nil (or 'curve)= , more logic needs to be added that decides whether left curly quote or rig= ht curly quote should be used, which might have some performance impact as = we then need to check what the previous character is, what the next charact= er is, etc to decide if the current apostrophe needs to be replaced with a = left or a right quote.

 It=E2=80=99s not a significant performance impact.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s more = a hassle of documenting a more-complex approach.=C2=A0 That is partly why I= gave up on such an approach after implementing it, and went with the simpl= er approach that is in Emacs master now.

> CASE 1: 'Hey' -> =E2=80=98Hey=E2=80=99
> CASE 2: it's awesome -> it=E2=80=99s awesome
 > CASE 3: my sisters' weddings -> my sisters=E2=80=99 weddings
> CASE 4: He said 'It's awesome!' -> He said =E2=80=98It= =E2=80=99s awesome!=E2=80=99

=E2=80=98message=E2=80=99 already does cases 2 and 3 that way, as well as t= he 2nd apostrophe in case 4.=C2=A0 The remaining cases are quite rare in Em= acs diagnostics, as the Emacs style uses directed quotes when single-quotin= g.

If there's a non-space character before the apostrophe, replace it with= right quote, else use left quote.

 That would mishandle common English phrases like =E2=80=9C'60s pop cult= ure=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Crock 'n' roll=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 (These phra= ses don=E2=80=99t occur in Emacs diagnostics either, but as long as we=E2= =80=99re being pedantic....)=C2=A0 Any heuristics will go awry sometimes so= we need some way to override the heuristics; and once we have such an over= ride, there is a real benefit to keeping the heuristics simple.

--089e014954acab4f9a052121f688-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 26 03:34:44 2018 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2018 07:34:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48990 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMTit-0004rq-RC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 03:34:44 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36815) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMTis-0004rc-Au for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 03:34:42 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMTim-000308-Mj for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 03:34:37 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:59118) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMTim-000302-Ij for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 03:34:36 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fMTil-00075g-V6 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 03:34:36 -0400 Subject: control message for bug 31597 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.99.98) Message-Id: From: Glenn Morris Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 03:34:35 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) unarchive 21588 forcemerge 21588 31597