From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:46:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.144215911326167 (code B ref -1); Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:46:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2015 15:45:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59181 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9Sr-0006nz-7w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:41605) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9Sp-0006nr-6i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9So-0007KY-3N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:10 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:47210) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9So-0007KU-0p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51605) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9Sm-0003j0-KV for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:09 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9Sj-0007CC-ES for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:08 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:41206) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9Sj-00079W-8Z for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:05 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t8DFj36j017217 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:45:04 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8DFj22e002608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:45:03 GMT Received: from abhmp0009.oracle.com (abhmp0009.oracle.com [141.146.116.15]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8DFj2qU021584 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:45:02 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 08:45:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) Emacs Info manuals have long used double-quotes for two things: * Setting off terms that are defined (e.g., glossary terms). (This is presumably the case for the occurrence of "codepages" in this same node.) * Programming strings - e.g. Lisp strings (including file-name strings). In (emacs) `Coding Sytems', at least, it seems that Curly-Quote Mania has struck another nasty blow: In addition to converting various representations of non-ASCII characters, a coding system can perform end-of-line conversion. Emacs handles three different conventions for how to separate lines in a file: newline ("unix"), carriage-return linefeed ("dos"), and just carriage-return ("mac"). Why curly double-quotes here? Either those quoted names are supposed to be Lisp strings or they are proper names. In the latter case they should not be quoted at all, and they should be properly capitalized. In the former case (which is what I'm guessing is meant), plain ASCII double-quote chars should be used. Please don't confuse users this way, and make them guess what is meant. Get it straight, please. Plain ASCII double-quote chars should always be used for strings. In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2015-08-16 on LEG570 Bzr revision: f7ee23e587b01f179284b5554c67d579a2def676 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --host=3D3Di686-pc-mingw32 --enable-checking=3D3Dyes,glyphs' From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.503 (Entity 5.503) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Drew Adams Subject: bug#21472: closed (Re: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings) Message-ID: References: <83vbbe9j7k.fsf@gnu.org> X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 21472 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 20:08:02 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1442174882-24990-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1442174882-24990-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for= Lisp strings which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 21472@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 21472: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D21472 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1442174882-24990-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 21472-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2015 20:07:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59298 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbDYj-0006UR-Q9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 16:07:34 -0400 Received: from mtaout26.012.net.il ([80.179.55.182]:39578) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbDYh-0006UI-5L for 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 16:07:31 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout26.012.net.il by mtaout26.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUM00M00T9KCL00@mtaout26.012.net.il> for 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 23:09:55 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout26.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUM00CGBTCJKI90@mtaout26.012.net.il>; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 23:09:55 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 23:07:27 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83vbbe9j7k.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21472-done Cc: 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 08:45:01 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > > In addition to converting various representations of non-ASCII > characters, a coding system can perform end-of-line conversion. Emacs > handles three different conventions for how to separate lines in a file: > newline ("unix"), carriage-return linefeed ("dos"), and just > carriage-return ("mac"). > > Why curly double-quotes here? These are literal strings, so they are quoted. > Either those quoted names are supposed > to be Lisp strings or they are proper names. In the latter case they > should not be quoted at all, and they should be properly capitalized. > In the former case (which is what I'm guessing is meant), plain ASCII > double-quote chars should be used. Latest versions of makeinfo convert ``...'' into “...”. That's life, you should get used to it. It won't go away, no matter how many "bug reports" you will file for that. ------------=_1442174882-24990-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2015 15:45:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59181 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9Sr-0006nz-7w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:41605) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9Sp-0006nr-6i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9So-0007KY-3N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:10 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:47210) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9So-0007KU-0p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51605) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9Sm-0003j0-KV for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:09 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9Sj-0007CC-ES for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:08 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:41206) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zb9Sj-00079W-8Z for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 11:45:05 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t8DFj36j017217 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:45:04 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8DFj22e002608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:45:03 GMT Received: from abhmp0009.oracle.com (abhmp0009.oracle.com [141.146.116.15]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8DFj2qU021584 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:45:02 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 08:45:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) Emacs Info manuals have long used double-quotes for two things: * Setting off terms that are defined (e.g., glossary terms). (This is presumably the case for the occurrence of "codepages" in this same node.) * Programming strings - e.g. Lisp strings (including file-name strings). In (emacs) `Coding Sytems', at least, it seems that Curly-Quote Mania has struck another nasty blow: In addition to converting various representations of non-ASCII characters, a coding system can perform end-of-line conversion. Emacs handles three different conventions for how to separate lines in a file: newline ("unix"), carriage-return linefeed ("dos"), and just carriage-return ("mac"). Why curly double-quotes here? Either those quoted names are supposed to be Lisp strings or they are proper names. In the latter case they should not be quoted at all, and they should be properly capitalized. In the former case (which is what I'm guessing is meant), plain ASCII double-quote chars should be used. Please don't confuse users this way, and make them guess what is meant. Get it straight, please. Plain ASCII double-quote chars should always be used for strings. In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2015-08-16 on LEG570 Bzr revision: f7ee23e587b01f179284b5554c67d579a2def676 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --host=3D3Di686-pc-mingw32 --enable-checking=3D3Dyes,glyphs' ------------=_1442174882-24990-1-- From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 21:12:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D21472.144217867230414 (code D ref 21472); Sun, 13 Sep 2015 21:12:01 +0000 Received: (at 21472-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2015 21:11:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59325 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbEYJ-0007uT-TY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 17:11:12 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:49561) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbEYH-0007uL-QF for 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 17:11:10 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t8DLB8JJ016426 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 13 Sep 2015 21:11:09 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8DLB8fZ019779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 13 Sep 2015 21:11:08 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8DLB7Dx003821; Sun, 13 Sep 2015 21:11:07 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <661f3a80-cdaf-47f0-a096-4be744409150@default> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 14:11:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <83vbbe9j7k.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83vbbe9j7k.fsf@gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > In addition to converting various representations of non-ASCII > > characters, a coding system can perform end-of-line conversion. Emacs > > handles three different conventions for how to separate lines in a > > file: newline ("unix"), carriage-return linefeed ("dos"), and just > > carriage-return ("mac"). > > > > Why curly double-quotes here? >=20 > These are literal strings, so they are quoted. Literal for what purpose? What is being quoted? None of those "strings" of text is used normally without capitalization. And if they are in fact supposed to be "strings" in the programming sense then straight ASCII double-quotes are what we use (in the rest of the manual). Search for such curly double quotes, and you will not, I think, find other such occurrences. The other occurrences are of terms that we introduce (e.g., define). This is *not* a general problem. It is not about the use of curly double-quotes in, for example, the copyright statement (e.g., =E2=80=9CYou have the freedom to copy and modify this GNU manual. Buying copies from the FSF supports it in developing GNU and promoting software freedom.=E2=80=9D). > > Either those quoted names are supposed > > to be Lisp strings or they are proper names. In the latter case they > > should not be quoted at all, and they should be properly capitalized. > > In the former case (which is what I'm guessing is meant), plain ASCII > > double-quote chars should be used. >=20 > Latest versions of makeinfo convert ``...'' into =E2=80=9C...=E2=80=9D. So these particular occurrences of ``...'' were also incorrect previously. > That's life, you should get used to it. It won't go away, > no matter how many "bug reports" you will file for that. You are apparently fighting a phantom. I've even modified my own Info enhancements so they fontify the text between such curly double-quotes. In a separate face, because the quoted text does not have the same meaning as that enclosed in straight ASCII double-quotes (a string) or that enclosed between curly single-quotes (what was formerly `...'). The point of this bug is that those *particular* terms do not belong between curly double-quotes (IMHO). If they were ordinary text being quoted then they would be (should be) capitalized - "unix", "dos", etc. are written incorrectly for such a usage. This bug is not about other curly double-quoted text in the manual. It is specific to these terms. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 06:25:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144221184813891 (code B ref 21472); Mon, 14 Sep 2015 06:25:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2015 06:24:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59471 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbNBP-0003bz-Sh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 02:24:08 -0400 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:56552) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbNBN-0003bq-UF for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 02:24:06 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUN00M00LHK0300@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 09:24:03 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUN00LYNLS3VP60@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 09:24:03 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 09:24:02 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <661f3a80-cdaf-47f0-a096-4be744409150@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83pp1la58d.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83vbbe9j7k.fsf@gnu.org> <661f3a80-cdaf-47f0-a096-4be744409150@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2015 14:11:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org > > The point of this bug is that those *particular* terms do > not belong between curly double-quotes (IMHO). Yes, they do. > If they were ordinary text being quoted then they would be (should > be) capitalized - "unix", "dos", etc. are written incorrectly for > such a usage. Quoted text in Info manuals ends up with curly quotes when you use Texinfo 5.x and later. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 13:52:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144223869226705 (code B ref 21472); Mon, 14 Sep 2015 13:52:01 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2015 13:51:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59798 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbUAN-0006wf-IV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 09:51:31 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:33462) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbUAL-0006wR-Cy for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 09:51:29 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t8EDpRYb012628 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 14 Sep 2015 13:51:27 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8EDpRB5025361 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 14 Sep 2015 13:51:27 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8EDpQ6W019469; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 13:51:26 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <37f2a01b-f61a-4eff-814f-ae6857b6eafd@default> Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 06:51:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <> <<83vbbe9j7k.fsf@gnu.org>> <<661f3a80-cdaf-47f0-a096-4be744409150@default>> <<83pp1la58d.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83pp1la58d.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > The point of this bug is that those *particular* terms do > > not belong between curly double-quotes (IMHO). >=20 > Yes, they do. Why? Why are we quoting "unix" and "dos"? Why not quote "UNIX" and "DOS"? What is the reasoning behind this? Apparently these are not literal programming strings - or if they are, it's not clear how they are used as strings. > > If they were ordinary text being quoted then they would be (should > > be) capitalized - "unix", "dos", etc. are written incorrectly for > > such a usage. >=20 > Quoted text in Info manuals ends up with curly quotes when you use > Texinfo 5.x and later. How does that respond to the cited sentence it follows? Quoted text might end up with curly quotes. The question is why these words should be quoted (using ordinary text quotes), and if they should (no reason given so far) then why they should be lowercase. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 14:10:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144223974830111 (code B ref 21472); Mon, 14 Sep 2015 14:10:03 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2015 14:09:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60368 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbURQ-0007pa-07 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 10:09:08 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:51312) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbURO-0007pN-CK for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 10:09:06 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbURG-00042h-R0 for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 10:09:05 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:33143) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbUR9-0003us-Cz; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 10:08:51 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbUR8-0000xI-O6; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 10:08:50 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 13 Sep 2015 08:45:01 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 10:08:50 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Emacs Info manuals have long used double-quotes for two things: > * Setting off terms that are defined (e.g., glossary terms). > (This is presumably the case for the occurrence of "codepages" > in this same node.) Those are English quotation marks. > * Programming strings - e.g. Lisp strings (including file-name strings). We write Lisp strings in Lisp syntax, which includes ASCII doublequote characters. > Emacs > handles three different conventions for how to separate lines in a file: > newline ("unix"), carriage-return linefeed ("dos"), and just > carriage-return ("mac"). > Why curly double-quotes here? Either those quoted names are supposed > to be Lisp strings or they are proper names. I don't think they are Lisp strings. Those are informal aliases, not proper names, hence call for English quotation marks. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 00:22:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144227647825506 (code B ref 21472); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 00:22:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2015 00:21:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60716 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbdzq-0006dJ-4E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:21:18 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:49106) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbdzn-0006dD-Ne for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:21:16 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbdzm-00069g-UB for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:21:15 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_05, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:41144) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbdzk-00068W-BA; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:21:12 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbdzj-0001L1-63; Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:21:11 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-reply-to: <37f2a01b-f61a-4eff-814f-ae6857b6eafd@default> (message from Drew Adams on Mon, 14 Sep 2015 06:51:25 -0700 (PDT)) References: <> <<83vbbe9j7k.fsf@gnu.org>> <<661f3a80-cdaf-47f0-a096-4be744409150@default>> <<83pp1la58d.fsf@gnu.org>> <37f2a01b-f61a-4eff-814f-ae6857b6eafd@default> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:21:11 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.10 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Why? Why are we quoting "unix" and "dos"? Why not quote "UNIX" > and "DOS"? We write them in quotes in that passage because we are saying they are the names of certain things. Compare: Humans' pets are mostly of the effusively friendly kind (the "dog") or the aloof kind (the "cat"). -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings References: In-Reply-To: Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 15:58:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D21472.144233264810910 (code D ref 21472); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 15:58:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2015 15:57:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33453 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbsbn-0002pu-Ff for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 11:57:27 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:54168) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbsbk-0002pi-K0 for 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 11:57:25 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E8416019E for <21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 08:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id Q3Y37eRpIw8h for <21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 08:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B75B91610CA for <21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 08:57:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Tfxaq5B3_uIn for <21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 08:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9DE2716019E for <21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 08:57:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 08:57:19 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Although the manual was correct as it was, it could be written to avoid the need for the quotes, and this should help avoid confusion like the problem Drew reported. I went through the Emacs, Elisp, and Elisp intro manuals looking for this sort of problem and fixed the ones that I found in commit ef7dbdf5873bf0a1f3f0e64e5d019e74d5b15b9e. The sentence Drew mentioned now looks like this: Emacs handles three different conventions for how to separate lines in a file: newline (Unix), carriage-return linefeed (DOS), and just carriage-return (Mac). which avoids the quoting issue entirely. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:03:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144233292311683 (code B ref 21472); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:03:01 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2015 16:02:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33472 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbsgE-00032C-Ht for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:02:02 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:53722) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbsgC-00031l-IU for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:02:01 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUQ0090072VBU00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:00:58 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUQ0085G75MYV70@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:00:58 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:00:59 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <831tdz8yf8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 08:57:19 -0700 > > Although the manual was correct as it was, it could be written to avoid the need > for the quotes, and this should help avoid confusion like the problem Drew > reported. I went through the Emacs, Elisp, and Elisp intro manuals looking for > this sort of problem and fixed the ones that I found in commit > ef7dbdf5873bf0a1f3f0e64e5d019e74d5b15b9e. The sentence Drew mentioned now looks > like this: > > Emacs handles three different conventions for how to separate lines in a file: > newline (Unix), carriage-return linefeed (DOS), and just carriage-return (Mac). > > which avoids the quoting issue entirely. If this means that we should avoid quoting text just because Drew doesn't like a certain type of quotes, then I object. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:23:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144233413414399 (code B ref 21472); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:23:01 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2015 16:22:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33499 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbszl-0003kB-SD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:22:14 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:55628) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbszj-0003k2-Ar for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:22:12 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7047C1610CD; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id hdYpma4pMUKN; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAC901610D9; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:22:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id zpfYEwIpnfYk; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9E9161610D4; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:22:09 -0700 (PDT) References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <831tdz8yf8.fsf@gnu.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <55F845B1.5060104@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:22:09 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <831tdz8yf8.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Eli Zaretskii wrote: > If this means that we should avoid quoting text just because Drew > doesn't like a certain type of quotes No, it doesn't mean that. There are still thousands of places in the man= ual=20 that still quote text using `` and '', so the corresponding info files st= ill=20 quote =E2=80=9Clike this=E2=80=9D with curved double quotes in thousands = of places. The=20 particular place Drew objected to was confusing, though, and it's one of = the=20 hundreds of places where I toned down the quoting. The manuals were usin= g=20 quotes too often, and this was independent of the issue of what quoting=20 characters to use on display. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:27:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144233440514807 (code B ref 21472); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:27:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2015 16:26:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33507 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbt48-0003qi-9N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:26:44 -0400 Received: from mtaout29.012.net.il ([80.179.55.185]:47951) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbt45-0003qY-40 for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:26:42 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout29.012.net.il by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUQ00I008BXLF00@mtaout29.012.net.il> for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:27:10 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUQ00EDR8D7WF30@mtaout29.012.net.il>; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:27:07 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:26:38 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83y4g77io1.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 08:57:19 -0700 > > Although the manual was correct as it was, it could be written to avoid the need > for the quotes, and this should help avoid confusion like the problem Drew > reported. I went through the Emacs, Elisp, and Elisp intro manuals looking for > this sort of problem and fixed the ones that I found in commit > ef7dbdf5873bf0a1f3f0e64e5d019e74d5b15b9e. After looking through these changes, I must say I don't like too many of them. Phrases like "foo (or “bar”)" now lost their quotes, which makes them less correct English-wise, AFAIK. Even worse, we lost quotes in phrases like "foo (a.k.a. “bar”). This sentence: On a decentralized version control system, push changes from the current branch to another location. where "push" was quoted, is now reads like incorrect English ("push" is not a noun here). Likewise here: The external border is normally not shown on fullboth and mazimized frames. Previously, "fullboth", which is not a word, was quoted to indicate that it's not a real word. Many places have a quoted text replaced by @dfn, although there's no terminology here that we describe or index. Etc., etc. -- I think a large portion of these changes goes too far, and replaces perfectly correct English with less correct one. I think most of these changes should be reverted. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:16:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144234453129587 (code B ref 21472); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:16:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2015 19:15:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33576 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbvhS-0007h8-4h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 15:15:30 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:38629) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbvhQ-0007gw-3f for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 15:15:29 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3391610D2; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id GG4e-t2J4f-K; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C01101610CE; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:15:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id arVBAY7TymIa; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A147C1610AD; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:15:25 -0700 (PDT) References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <83y4g77io1.fsf@gnu.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <55F86E4D.5030505@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:15:25 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83y4g77io1.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Eli Zaretskii wrote: > This sentence: > On a decentralized version control system, push changes from the > current branch to another location. > > where "push" was quoted, is now reads like incorrect English Why? It's idiomatic English to talk about pushing changes in a dVCS. Se= e, for=20 example,=20 ,=20 which says =E2=80=9CYou push changes from your local AppBuilder repositor= y to your=20 remote Git repository.=E2=80=9D > The external border is normally not shown on fullboth and mazimized > frames. > > Previously, "fullboth", which is not a word, was quoted to indicate > that it's not a real word. As I understand it the section is intended to define =E2=80=9Cfullboth=E2= =80=9D as an invented=20 English word, which is fine: the invented word should be defined with @df= n=20 (which quotes the word in info files), and other uses of the word should = appear=20 unquoted just like any other word. This is standard English style. The = manual=20 should not quote every use of a neologism, as scare quotes are not a good= style=20 for a manual. That being said, there were problems with the section: it did not use @df= n to=20 define =E2=80=9Cfullboth=E2=80=9D, and the paragraph defining =E2=80=9Cfu= llboth=E2=80=9D was written awkwardly.=20 I just now installed a followup patch to fix that. I added index entri= es=20 while I was at it. > Many places have a quoted text replaced by @dfn, although there's no > terminology here that we describe or index. Examples? I put in @dfn when I thought the text was defining a term. Indexing is a separate axis. If the text uses a term that should be inde= xed,=20 the index entry should be created regardless of whether the text surround= s a=20 term with @dfn or with ``...'' or with nothing at all. By and large my r= ecent=20 large patch worried about quoting, not about indexing. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:49:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert , Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144236090427862 (code B ref 21472); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:49:01 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2015 23:48:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33691 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbzxX-0007FJ-Vn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:48:24 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:37906) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbzxV-0007FB-Sv for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:48:22 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t8FNmKeX027888 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:20 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8FNmKMx004354 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:20 GMT Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8FNmJOe011725; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:19 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <56d0b58e-2848-497e-aa64-e6f11dbe6421@default> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:48:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <831tdz8yf8.fsf@gnu.org> <55F845B1.5060104@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <55F845B1.5060104@cs.ucla.edu> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > If this means that we should avoid quoting text just because Drew > > doesn't like a certain type of quotes >=20 > No, it doesn't mean that. There are still thousands of places in the > manual that still quote text using `` and '', so the corresponding info f= iles > still quote =E2=80=9Clike this=E2=80=9D with curved double quotes in thou= sands of places. The > particular place Drew objected to was confusing, though, and it's one of > the hundreds of places where I toned down the quoting. The manuals were = using > quotes too often, and this was independent of the issue of what quoting > characters to use on display. And Drew already explicitly corrected the Eli's "misunderstanding" (and attacks) about this bug report, by making it perfectly clear that _this_ report is _NOT_ about curly quotes in general and is only about their particular use _HERE_, for these particular terms. And part of this bug is the question of why these terms are downcased. Downcasing them and then quoting them seems wrong to me. So I asked why this was done. Still haven't gotten an answer. Lots of heat, but no light, so far. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144236090827878 (code B ref 21472); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:49:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2015 23:48:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33694 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbzxb-0007FZ-KH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:48:27 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:44019) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbzxZ-0007FR-M5 for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:48:26 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t8FNmHcr016371 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:18 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8FNmHYv004237 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:17 GMT Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8FNmHxK007189; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:17 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9777edf8-a4b4-467f-9fd2-ee853877d389@default> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:48:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: < <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu>> <<831tdz8yf8.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<831tdz8yf8.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > If this means that we should avoid quoting text just because > Drew doesn't like a certain type of quotes, then I object. I made it perfectly clear that this bug report has nothing to do with my preference or lack thereof for any particular kind of quoting. For example: This is *not* a general problem. It is not about the use of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ curly double-quotes in, for example, the copyright statement (e.g., "You have the freedom to copy and modify this GNU manual. Buying copies from the FSF supports it in developing GNU and promoting software freedom."). ... The point of this bug is that those *particular* terms do ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ not belong between curly double-quotes (IMHO). If they were ordinary text being quoted then they would be (should be) capitalized - "unix", "dos", etc. are written incorrectly for such a usage. This bug is not about other curly double-quoted text in the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ manual. It is specific to these terms. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and in another message: Quoted text might end up with curly quotes. The question is why these words should be quoted (using ordinary text quotes), ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and if they should (no reason given so far) then why they should be lowercase. Yet you continue with your Drew-bashing, based on your spurious claim. Why? Why is quoting appropriate for _this particular text_ at all? That's the first question posed, in effect, by the bug report. You could have answered Paul's removal of the quotes by giving a _reason why_ they are needed _here_, but you chose only to dump on Drew for reporting the oddball use of quoting here. Too bad. What a cop-out - attack the messenger. What kind of quotes do you think are appropriate for "unix", "dos", and "mac", none of which are proper names as lowercase? And why? What is the point of downcasing and then quoting them? That's what the question underlying this bug report. No answer, so far. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Paul Eggert Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144236091027894 (code B ref 21472); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:49:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2015 23:48:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33697 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbzxe-0007Fq-1U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:48:30 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:44038) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbzxc-0007Fh-Gw for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:48:28 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t8FNmLKH016408 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:21 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8FNmLZJ008836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:21 GMT Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8FNmL3s007205; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:21 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0cbdd1c7-cc2c-4684-bc1e-fec7db72cf45@default> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:48:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <83y4g77io1.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83y4g77io1.fsf@gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > Although the manual was correct as it was, it could be written to avoid > > the need for the quotes, and this should help avoid confusion like the > > problem Drew reported. I went through the Emacs, Elisp, and Elisp > > intro manuals looking for this sort of problem and fixed the ones that > > I found in commit ef7dbdf5873bf0a1f3f0e64e5d019e74d5b15b9e. >=20 > After looking through these changes, I must say I don't like too many > of them. Phrases like "foo (or =E2=80=9Cbar=E2=80=9D)" now lost their qu= otes, which > makes them less correct English-wise, AFAIK. Even worse, we lost > quotes in phrases like "foo (a.k.a. =E2=80=9Cbar=E2=80=9D). ... > Etc., etc. -- I think a large portion of these changes goes too far, > and replaces perfectly correct English with less correct one. >=20 > I think most of these changes should be reverted. To be clear, and to _repeat_: _THIS_ bug is about the quoting of _these particular terms_: whether they should be quoted (and why), and if so, whether (and why) they should be changed to lowercase. The bug Subject line indicates that I even mistakenly interpreted these terms as intended to be Lisp strings, so much was it unclear to me what these quotations are all about. These are not the usual terms ("UNIX", "DOS", and "Mac"). From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:49:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert , Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144236091427910 (code B ref 21472); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:49:03 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2015 23:48:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33700 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbzxh-0007G6-Kc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:48:34 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:44062) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zbzxf-0007Fy-MT for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:48:32 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t8FNmUgf016491 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:30 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8FNmUCd028611 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:30 GMT Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8FNmTVu021515; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:30 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:48:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <83y4g77io1.fsf@gnu.org> <55F86E4D.5030505@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <55F86E4D.5030505@cs.ucla.edu> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > This sentence: > > On a decentralized version control system, push changes from the > > current branch to another location. > > > > where "push" was quoted, is now reads like incorrect English >=20 > Why? It's idiomatic English to talk about pushing changes in a dVCS. > See, for example, > vc/push-changes>, > which says =E2=80=9CYou push changes from your local AppBuilder repositor= y to your > remote Git repository.=E2=80=9D >=20 > > The external border is normally not shown on fullboth and mazimized > > frames. > > > > Previously, "fullboth", which is not a word, was quoted to indicate > > that it's not a real word. >=20 > As I understand it the section is intended to define =E2=80=9Cfullboth=E2= =80=9D as an > invented English word, which is fine: the invented word should be defined > with @dfn (which quotes the word in info files), and other uses of the > word should appear unquoted just like any other word. This is standard > English style. The manual should not quote every use of a neologism, > as scare quotes are not a good style for a manual. >=20 > That being said, there were problems with the section: it did not use @df= n > to define =E2=80=9Cfullboth=E2=80=9D, and the paragraph defining =E2=80= =9Cfullboth=E2=80=9D was written > awkwardly. > I just now installed a followup patch to fix that. I added index > entries while I was at it. >=20 > > Many places have a quoted text replaced by @dfn, although there's no > > terminology here that we describe or index. >=20 > Examples? I put in @dfn when I thought the text was defining a term. >=20 > Indexing is a separate axis. If the text uses a term that should be > indexed, the index entry should be created regardless of whether the > text surrounds a term with @dfn or with ``...'' or with nothing at all. > By and large my recent large patch worried about quoting, not about index= ing. I do not object if people want to discuss other occurrences of quoted terms in the context of this bug thread, _provided_ this bug gets addressed as reported: it is only about _these particular quoted terms_. IOW, let us please not lose sight of _THIS_ bug in some larger consideration of other quoted terms and phrases (which I did not initiate, and in which I have not participated). From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:49:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert , 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D21472.144236090027845 (code D ref 21472); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:49:03 +0000 Received: (at 21472-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Sep 2015 23:48:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33688 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbzxT-0007F2-IB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:48:19 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:37887) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZbzxR-0007Eu-MP for 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:48:18 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t8FNm98D027768 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:10 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8FNm9Aq027883 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:09 GMT Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8FNm8db007176; Tue, 15 Sep 2015 23:48:08 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:48:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > it could be written to avoid the need for the quotes, and this > should help avoid confusion like the problem Drew reported. > I went through the Emacs, Elisp, and Elisp intro manuals looking for > this sort of problem and fixed the ones that I found in commit > ef7dbdf5873bf0a1f3f0e64e5d019e74d5b15b9e. The sentence Drew mentioned no= w > looks like this: >=20 > Emacs handles three different conventions for how to separate lines in a > file: newline (Unix), carriage-return linefeed (DOS), and just carriage-r= eturn > (Mac). >=20 > which avoids the quoting issue entirely. That fixed sentence looks good to me, FWIW. I cannot speak to other quoted terms that you might have changed. I think that those other changes should be handled separately, not as part of the fix for this bug. This bug is about these particular terms: downcased and quoted. IOW, if you want to consider/discuss what should be done (if anything) about other quoted occurrences, please don't tie fixing this bug to that consideration/discussion and possible changes resulting from that consideration/discussion. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 06:57:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.14423865711407 (code B ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 06:57:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 06:56:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33938 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc6dW-0000Mc-Ti for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 02:56:11 -0400 Received: from mtaout28.012.net.il ([80.179.55.184]:39206) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc6dT-0000MR-1X for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 02:56:08 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout28.012.net.il by mtaout28.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUR00500CK6YR00@mtaout28.012.net.il> for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 09:55:48 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout28.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUR003E6CL0M930@mtaout28.012.net.il>; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 09:55:48 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 09:56:07 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <55F86E4D.5030505@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83vbba7szc.fsf@gnu.org> References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <83y4g77io1.fsf@gnu.org> <55F86E4D.5030505@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 12:15:25 -0700 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > This sentence: > > On a decentralized version control system, push changes from the > > current branch to another location. > > > > where "push" was quoted, is now reads like incorrect English > > Why? It's idiomatic English to talk about pushing changes in a > dVCS. I'm not going to argue. The results of these changes look worse to me. Where previously there was good English, we now have techno-babble and borderline (a.k.a. "idiomatic") English. It's a shame we needed to make these changes. Wrong analogy: here "push" is a literal verb, whereas in the sentence I quoted "push" is a name of an operation, and "changes" is the verb. > > Many places have a quoted text replaced by @dfn, although there's no > > terminology here that we describe or index. > > Examples? I put in @dfn when I thought the text was defining a term. Almost all of those are wrong, IMO, as they don't define any terminology the manual explains or describes. > Indexing is a separate axis No, it's not: if you claim something is a term, you need to index it. We index all terminology introduced in a manual, as a matter of principle. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:24:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D21472.14423882244182 (code D ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:24:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 07:23:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33954 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc74B-00015N-OB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 03:23:43 -0400 Received: from mtaout29.012.net.il ([80.179.55.185]:51308) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc749-00015E-Bb for 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 03:23:42 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout29.012.net.il by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUR00C00DLRYN00@mtaout29.012.net.il> for 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:24:11 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUR001Q9DWBXND0@mtaout29.012.net.il>; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:24:11 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:23:42 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 16:48:07 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > > > Emacs handles three different conventions for how to separate lines in a > > file: newline (Unix), carriage-return linefeed (DOS), and just carriage-return > > (Mac). > > > > which avoids the quoting issue entirely. > > That fixed sentence looks good to me, FWIW. It doesn't look good to me. "Unix" is not used here in a literal sense, it stands for all Unix-like systems (a.k.a. "Posix"), including GNU/Linux. Likewise, "DOS" stands for MS-DOS, MS-Windows, and similar systems. Removing the quotes here changed the meaning. That's also the problem with many other changes Paul made: where previously a quoted "FOO" frequently meant "like FOO, but not really FOO", now we have just the literal FOO, and the reader is none the wiser. Shame on us for failing to write good expressive English for fear of quotes. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:33:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: eggert@cs.ucla.edu Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.14423887345135 (code B ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:33:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 07:32:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33958 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc7CP-0001Kl-Ns for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 03:32:14 -0400 Received: from mtaout28.012.net.il ([80.179.55.184]:58831) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc7CM-0001KO-Sz for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 03:32:11 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout28.012.net.il by mtaout28.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUR00F00E65VC00@mtaout28.012.net.il> for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:31:46 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout28.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUR003YUE8YM9D0@mtaout28.012.net.il>; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:31:46 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:32:06 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <83vbba7szc.fsf@gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83pp1i7rbd.fsf@gnu.org> References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <83y4g77io1.fsf@gnu.org> <55F86E4D.5030505@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbba7szc.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 09:56:07 +0300 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org > > Wrong analogy: here "push" is a literal verb, whereas in the sentence > I quoted "push" is a name of an operation, and "changes" is the verb. Please disregard this single paragraph: it was mistakenly left in the message and not deleted. All the rest is valid. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.14423897406633 (code B ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:49:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 07:49:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33962 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc7Sd-0001iu-JR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 03:48:59 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:33021) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc7Sa-0001il-Pr for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 03:48:57 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1C8B1610CA; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id Ya-kUpAheFs3; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F8B1610ED; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:48:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id KJoK5vn_TAB8; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E7F581610CA; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:48:54 -0700 (PDT) References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <83y4g77io1.fsf@gnu.org> <55F86E4D.5030505@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbba7szc.fsf@gnu.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <55F91EE3.7010905@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:48:51 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83vbba7szc.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Eli Zaretskii wrote: > We index all terminology introduced in a manual, as a matter of > principle. That's news to me, and the manuals often don't index terminology within @dfn. For example, doc/emacs/basic.texi says @dfn{minor modes} but does not index the term. A quick eyeball of that file suggests that only about half of its terms enclosed in @dfn are indexed. I'm not opposed to having more index entries for @dfns if someone wants to do it, but it doesn't appear to be a hard rule. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:50:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Cc: 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D21472.14423897616693 (code D ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:50:01 +0000 Received: (at 21472-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 07:49:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33966 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc7Sz-0001js-5M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 03:49:21 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:33033) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc7Sx-0001jl-88 for 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 03:49:20 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91DD1610ED; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id lktgjdfP81FA; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 599761610EE; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:49:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id eNYP22ufFymU; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3A1401610CA; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:49:13 -0700 (PDT) References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:49:13 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Shame on us for failing to write good expressive English for fear of > quotes. I didn't remove those quotes due to fear. I removed them because they made the manual harder to read. Quotes are important to get right in English, and part of getting it right is to avoid overusing them. To be fair, the unnecessary quotes in the manual weren't as bad as these: http://www.unnecessaryquotes.com/ From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:03:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144239777224870 (code B ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:03:01 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 10:02:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34076 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc9YB-0006T4-T3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 06:02:52 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:44657) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc9YA-0006Sw-2m for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 06:02:51 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUR00H00L4A5T00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:01:57 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUR00HV7L781K20@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:01:57 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:02:00 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <55F91EE3.7010905@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83oah27kdj.fsf@gnu.org> References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <83y4g77io1.fsf@gnu.org> <55F86E4D.5030505@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbba7szc.fsf@gnu.org> <55F91EE3.7010905@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:48:51 -0700 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > We index all terminology introduced in a manual, as a matter of > > principle. > > That's news to me, and the manuals often don't index terminology within @dfn. > For example, doc/emacs/basic.texi says @dfn{minor modes} but does not index the > term. A quick eyeball of that file suggests that only about half of its terms > enclosed in @dfn are indexed. I'm not opposed to having more index entries for > @dfns if someone wants to do it, but it doesn't appear to be a hard rule. Many rules of good documentation are followed only partially. That doesn't make them any lesser. This rule should be obvious: if you introduce and explain some terminology, you should always consider the possibility that someone will want to read about that terminology, and so it should be in the index. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:09:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144239808425376 (code B ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:09:01 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 10:08:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34085 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc9dE-0006bE-Dp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 06:08:04 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:59124) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Zc9dD-0006b6-2j for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 06:08:03 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUR00200L0H0V00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:07:53 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUR0014PLH0IEC0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:07:48 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:07:51 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83mvwm7k3s.fsf@gnu.org> References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Cc: 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:49:13 -0700 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Shame on us for failing to write good expressive English for fear of > > quotes. > > I didn't remove those quotes due to fear. I removed them because they made the > manual harder to read. Quotes are important to get right in English, and part > of getting it right is to avoid overusing them. The problem is, you removed too many of them. For example, any use of "magic" where no real magic (as in Gandalf coming in and performing it) should be quoted, because the literal meaning is too far-fetched. Likewise in other similar situations, like with "future history". Likewise when using words that are not correct English (flagged by spell-checker), such as "fullboth". I attempted to fix the worst offenders I found in commit 31ff037. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:17:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Cc: 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu Received: via spool by 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D21472.144241658630171 (code D ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:17:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 15:16:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34972 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcERd-0007qY-DH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:16:25 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:28229) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcERa-0007qK-Oe for 21472-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:16:23 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t8GFGKHR005417 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:16:21 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8GFGKu5025656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:16:20 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t8GFGKID013561; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:16:20 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <62d3dfb8-6d01-446b-a97a-f4ed497e8369@default> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:16:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <> <<55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu>> <<3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default>> <<83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > It doesn't look good to me. "Unix" is not used here in a literal > sense, it stands for all Unix-like systems (a.k.a. "Posix"), including > GNU/Linux. Likewise, "DOS" stands for MS-DOS, MS-Windows, and similar > systems. So you say, but does the text say that? How does a reader get that from the manual? Just please put that _in words_, and forget the problematic use of lowercase and quotation marks here. IOW, say what you really mean. > Removing the quotes here changed the meaning. What meaning? There was no meaning given. No guessing would lead a reader to understand what you've now written as an explanation of what you meant the text to say. > That's also the problem with many other changes Paul made: where > previously a quoted "FOO" frequently meant "like FOO, but not really > FOO", now we have just the literal FOO, and the reader is none the > wiser. >=20 > Shame on us for failing to write good expressive English for fear of > quotes. Couldn't agree more with the first part. Throwing some quotes around bits of text without care typically hurts instead of helps. Let us "write good expressive English", by all means. Just say what you mean the text to say, instead of hoping that readers will guess your meaning because of some quote marks. FWIW, I agree with you wrt your remarks about indexing and using quote marks to indicate "so-called". My remarks here, and this entire bug report, have to do only with the particular quoted terms that this report calls out. There might be other such in the manual, but if so they should be handled outside this bug report and judged case by case, just like those reported here. (Use of quote marks to mean "so-called" or "not literally": http://www.grammar-monster.com/lessons/quotation_(speech)_marks_meaning_all= eged_so-called.htm) From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:32:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144241746432069 (code B ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:32:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 15:31:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34985 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcEfo-0008LB-2o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:31:04 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:44979) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcEfm-0008Kq-Kx for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:31:03 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F5051610EE; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id Ev9D6d6t3FiB; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D774F1610ED; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:31:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id xPCOe3ZyI5pb; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B86F81610EC; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:31:00 -0700 (PDT) References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> <83mvwm7k3s.fsf@gnu.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <55F98B34.4080703@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:31:00 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83mvwm7k3s.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Eli Zaretskii wrote: > For example, any use of "magic" where no real magic (as in Gandalf > coming in and performing it) should be quoted, because the literal > meaning is too far-fetched. Likewise in other similar situations, I'll give you =E2=80=9Cmagic=E2=80=9D as that is a gray area, where it's = no big deal either way,=20 but there are many other quotes that are clearly unnecessary, e.g.: Some mice have a ``wheel'' The @dfn{clipboard} is the facility that most graphical applications u= se for=20 ``cutting and pasting''. If you exit Emacs while it is the current ``owner'' of the clipboard d= ata, the @var{predicate} should return non-@code{nil} if the first element = is=20 ``less'' than the second, or @code{nil} if not. Quotes like these are a disservice to the reader: the reader must slow do= wn and=20 process them and think =E2=80=9Cwhy is this phrase being quoted?=E2=80=9D= and the answer to that=20 question is not worth the cost of the mental processing. There is no nee= d to=20 quote the word =E2=80=9Cpush=E2=80=9D merely because it is used as a noun= ! Anyway, clearly you prefer manuals that are way overquoted compared to st= andard=20 English style. To me, and I think to most people, this gives the manuals= a=20 overly =E2=80=9Cfussy=E2=80=9D look. (Apparently I need to quote =E2=80=9C= fussy=E2=80=9D as the manuals are not=20 actually fussing. :-) But I=E2=80=99m not going to =E2=80=9Cfight=E2=80=9D= over it. (The quotes are=20 because it wouldn=E2=80=99t be an actual fight with actual fisticuffs. :-= ) From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 17:20:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144242395212969 (code B ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 17:20:05 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 17:19:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35036 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcGMR-0003N6-Jy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:19:11 -0400 Received: from mtaout24.012.net.il ([80.179.55.180]:58013) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcGMP-0003Mt-0P for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:19:10 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout24.012.net.il by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUS000004XJLT00@mtaout24.012.net.il> for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 20:10:52 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUS00L68523B050@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 20:10:52 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 20:18:19 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <55F98B34.4080703@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83fv2e706c.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> <83mvwm7k3s.fsf@gnu.org> <55F98B34.4080703@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 21472@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:31:00 -0700 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > For example, any use of "magic" where no real magic (as in Gandalf > > coming in and performing it) should be quoted, because the literal > > meaning is too far-fetched. Likewise in other similar situations, > > I'll give you “magic” as that is a gray area, where it's no big deal either way, > but there are many other quotes that are clearly unnecessary, e.g.: > > Some mice have a ``wheel'' It's not a wheel, it's a button whose shape is round and which can be rotated as well as pressed. Wheels are what cars and bicycles have. > The @dfn{clipboard} is the facility that most graphical applications use for > ``cutting and pasting''. We've always used "cut and paste" in quotes in Emacs, as it's not our terminology. > If you exit Emacs while it is the current ``owner'' of the clipboard data, Emacs doesn't own anything here: clipboard data is not some real estate or money. > the @var{predicate} should return non-@code{nil} if the first element is > ``less'' than the second, or @code{nil} if not. "Less" here is in the eyes of the beholder; arbitrary objects do not have intrinsic order or comparison operators. It's our invention. > Quotes like these are a disservice to the reader: the reader must slow down and > process them and think “why is this phrase being quoted?” and the answer to that > question is not worth the cost of the mental processing. On the contrary, these quotes are most natural, and no such questions will ever pop up in anyone's mind. > There is no need to quote the word “push” merely because it is used > as a noun! Of course, there is: you don't really "push" anything. "Push" here is jargon for copying DAG portions from one location to another. A chapter whose subject is VCS should know better. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:28:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144242804221264 (code B ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:28:01 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 18:27:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35059 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcHQP-0005Wr-Km for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 14:27:22 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:55686) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcHQN-0005Wh-NC for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 14:27:20 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821681610F8; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id hd2eI59Amfo4; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7C381610F6; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:27:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id SGOdWBSYICkB; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BDDDF1610F2; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:27:17 -0700 (PDT) References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> <83mvwm7k3s.fsf@gnu.org> <55F98B34.4080703@cs.ucla.edu> <83fv2e706c.fsf@gnu.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <55F9B482.3050901@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:27:14 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83fv2e706c.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 09/16/2015 10:18 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > "Push" here is > jargon It would be ridiculous to quote every use of a technical term in the manual. It's fine to quote the defining occurrence (prefably with @dfn), but other uses of technical terms should appear unquoted. This is standard English style and it's what Emacs manuals should use. The defenses you gave for the quotes in the examples are weak; those quotes are unnecessary distractions to the reader, and their costs outweigh their benefits. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:35:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144242849722216 (code B ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:35:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 18:34:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35067 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcHXl-0005mF-Ig for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 14:34:57 -0400 Received: from mtaout27.012.net.il ([80.179.55.183]:50701) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcHXj-0005m5-I0 for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 14:34:56 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout27.012.net.il by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUS00E008Q9W200@mtaout27.012.net.il> for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 21:30:44 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUS007II8R81170@mtaout27.012.net.il>; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 21:30:44 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 21:34:15 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <55F9B482.3050901@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83bnd26wns.fsf@gnu.org> References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> <83mvwm7k3s.fsf@gnu.org> <55F98B34.4080703@cs.ucla.edu> <83fv2e706c.fsf@gnu.org> <55F9B482.3050901@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 21472@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:27:14 -0700 > > On 09/16/2015 10:18 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > "Push" here is > > jargon > > It would be ridiculous to quote every use of a technical term in the > manual. That's not what I suggested, or did. I left most of your unquoting in place, and only changed those that were too annoying. > It's fine to quote the defining occurrence (prefably with > @dfn), but other uses of technical terms should appear unquoted. This is > standard English style and it's what Emacs manuals should use. And that's what we do. But "push", "wheel", etc. aren't technical terms, they are jargon that crept into the language in some quarters. For them, a different rule and a separate judgment call is only prudent. > The defenses you gave for the quotes in the examples are weak; those > quotes are unnecessary distractions to the reader, and their costs > outweigh their benefits. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 20:32:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.14424354954381 (code B ref 21472); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 20:32:01 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2015 20:31:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35219 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcJMc-00018a-G6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 16:31:34 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:33390) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcJMZ-00018L-6y for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 16:31:32 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9CC1610FC; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id nT9NFgpxxBxy; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63511610FB; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:31:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id eN5575Yg7mrM; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CC7581610F4; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:31:28 -0700 (PDT) References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> <83mvwm7k3s.fsf@gnu.org> <55F98B34.4080703@cs.ucla.edu> <83fv2e706c.fsf@gnu.org> <55F9B482.3050901@cs.ucla.edu> <83bnd26wns.fsf@gnu.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <55F9D1A0.5060804@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:31:28 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83bnd26wns.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On 09/16/2015 11:34 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > "push", "wheel", etc. aren't technical terms, Sure they are. And they're commonly used that way nowadays, e.g.: https://github.com/jquery/jquery-mousewheel https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-diffs/2013-10/msg00185.html http://git-scm.com/docs/git-push https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-11/msg01746.html Omitting unnecessary quotes would help improve on the stuffy and dated feel that the Emacs manuals too often have. A part of this stuffiness comes from quoting terms that may have been newfangled decades ago but are in common use now. Repeatedly quoting now-common terms like "push", "mouse wheel", "cut", "copy", and "minimize" makes the manuals look like they were written decades ago and haven't been properly updated since. (Look, Ma! I can "cut" from this window and "paste" into this other one with my "mouse wheel"! :-) From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 04:47:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144246520830745 (code B ref 21472); Thu, 17 Sep 2015 04:47:01 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2015 04:46:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35612 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcR5r-0007zo-DM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 00:46:47 -0400 Received: from mtaout28.012.net.il ([80.179.55.184]:59166) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcR5o-0007zf-Vr for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 00:46:46 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout28.012.net.il by mtaout28.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUT009000YX1300@mtaout28.012.net.il> for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 07:46:25 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout28.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUT00OUL19DLQA0@mtaout28.012.net.il>; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 07:46:25 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 07:46:43 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <55F9D1A0.5060804@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <838u857ivg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> <83mvwm7k3s.fsf@gnu.org> <55F98B34.4080703@cs.ucla.edu> <83fv2e706c.fsf@gnu.org> <55F9B482.3050901@cs.ucla.edu> <83bnd26wns.fsf@gnu.org> <55F9D1A0.5060804@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 21472@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:31:28 -0700 > > On 09/16/2015 11:34 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > "push", "wheel", etc. aren't technical terms, > > Sure they are. And they're commonly used that way nowadays, e.g.: > > https://github.com/jquery/jquery-mousewheel > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-diffs/2013-10/msg00185.html > http://git-scm.com/docs/git-push > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-11/msg01746.html Yes, techno-babble is common. It doesn't yet make it right. > Omitting unnecessary quotes would help improve on the stuffy and dated > feel that the Emacs manuals too often have. There's nothing stuffy or dated in using quotes where appropriate. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 05:22:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.14424672821746 (code B ref 21472); Thu, 17 Sep 2015 05:22:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2015 05:21:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35651 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcRdJ-0000S6-LQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 01:21:21 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:50955) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcRdH-0000Rw-6s for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 01:21:19 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B531610ED; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 22:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id TUNV4zpOZ9q5; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 22:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 305E71610EE; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 22:21:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 6YO2FFxvm9E1; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 22:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0859A1610DC; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 22:21:17 -0700 (PDT) References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> <83mvwm7k3s.fsf@gnu.org> <55F98B34.4080703@cs.ucla.edu> <83fv2e706c.fsf@gnu.org> <55F9B482.3050901@cs.ucla.edu> <83bnd26wns.fsf@gnu.org> <55F9D1A0.5060804@cs.ucla.edu> <838u857ivg.fsf@gnu.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <55FA4DC7.9020401@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 22:21:11 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <838u857ivg.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> >https://github.com/jquery/jquery-mousewheel >> >https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-diffs/2013-10/msg00185.html >> >http://git-scm.com/docs/git-push >> >https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-11/msg01746.html > Yes, techno-babble is common. It doesn't yet make it right. Did you read all those URLs? It doesn't seem so. You might recognize a prominent contributor to Emacs in some of them.... :-) From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 06:04:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.14424697915823 (code B ref 21472); Thu, 17 Sep 2015 06:04:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2015 06:03:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35675 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcSHn-0001Vq-41 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 02:03:11 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:42164) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcSHj-0001Vd-KJ for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 02:03:08 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUT00A004KO7D00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 09:03:06 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUT00AT44T31Y40@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 09:03:03 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 09:03:05 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <55FA4DC7.9020401@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83zj0l60rq.fsf@gnu.org> References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> <83mvwm7k3s.fsf@gnu.org> <55F98B34.4080703@cs.ucla.edu> <83fv2e706c.fsf@gnu.org> <55F9B482.3050901@cs.ucla.edu> <83bnd26wns.fsf@gnu.org> <55F9D1A0.5060804@cs.ucla.edu> <838u857ivg.fsf@gnu.org> <55FA4DC7.9020401@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 21472@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 22:21:11 -0700 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> >https://github.com/jquery/jquery-mousewheel > >> >https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-diffs/2013-10/msg00185.html > >> >http://git-scm.com/docs/git-push > >> >https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-11/msg01746.html > > Yes, techno-babble is common. It doesn't yet make it right. > > Did you read all those URLs? It doesn't seem so. You might recognize a > prominent contributor to Emacs in some of them.... :-) I don't have to read them, since none of them are relevant to user manuals. Yes, I, too, use the jargon in free speech, but manuals are different: their language should be cleaner and more thought-out. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 07:22:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144247447312760 (code B ref 21472); Thu, 17 Sep 2015 07:22:01 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2015 07:21:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35696 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcTVJ-0003Jk-EE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 03:21:13 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:53045) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcTVH-0003Jc-Mc for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 03:21:12 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F2616110A; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 00:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id DqQfuR7I2d2R; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 00:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2824B161109; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 00:21:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ZY6GKgYdbOLh; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 00:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F06A0160810; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 00:21:08 -0700 (PDT) References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> <83mvwm7k3s.fsf@gnu.org> <55F98B34.4080703@cs.ucla.edu> <83fv2e706c.fsf@gnu.org> <55F9B482.3050901@cs.ucla.edu> <83bnd26wns.fsf@gnu.org> <55F9D1A0.5060804@cs.ucla.edu> <838u857ivg.fsf@gnu.org> <55FA4DC7.9020401@cs.ucla.edu> <83zj0l60rq.fsf@gnu.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <55FA69E4.4090508@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 00:21:08 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83zj0l60rq.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Eli Zaretskii wrote: > manuals ... language should be cleaner and more thought-out. Right, but littering a manual with unnecessary quotation marks is not cleaner: on the contrary, it is messy and distracting. Clear and simple explanation should trump pedanticism. The bug report that started this thread stemmed from confusion induced by unnecessary quotes, and many of the quotes you recently reintroduced are just as unnecessary and could easily cause similar confusion. From unknown Wed Aug 20 05:16:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21472: 25.0.50; REGRESSION: (emacs) `Coding Systems' uses curly quotes for Lisp strings Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 07:37:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21472 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Paul Eggert Cc: 21472@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 21472-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B21472.144247537014181 (code B ref 21472); Thu, 17 Sep 2015 07:37:02 +0000 Received: (at 21472) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2015 07:36:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35703 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcTjl-0003ge-Rt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 03:36:10 -0400 Received: from mtaout29.012.net.il ([80.179.55.185]:35813) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZcTjj-0003gU-0X for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 03:36:08 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout29.012.net.il by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUT00F0092FLU00@mtaout29.012.net.il> for 21472@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 10:36:21 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUT002WV94LUPC0@mtaout29.012.net.il>; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 10:36:21 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 10:35:49 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <55FA69E4.4090508@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83vbb95wh6.fsf@gnu.org> References: <55F83FDF.2070202@cs.ucla.edu> <3aa1fafa-ed4d-4935-8a3e-cae7d0842c5f@default> <83r3ly7rpd.fsf@gnu.org> <55F91EF9.2000302@cs.ucla.edu> <83mvwm7k3s.fsf@gnu.org> <55F98B34.4080703@cs.ucla.edu> <83fv2e706c.fsf@gnu.org> <55F9B482.3050901@cs.ucla.edu> <83bnd26wns.fsf@gnu.org> <55F9D1A0.5060804@cs.ucla.edu> <838u857ivg.fsf@gnu.org> <55FA4DC7.9020401@cs.ucla.edu> <83zj0l60rq.fsf@gnu.org> <55FA69E4.4090508@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 21472@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 00:21:08 -0700 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > manuals ... language should be cleaner and more thought-out. > > Right, but littering a manual with unnecessary quotation marks is not cleaner: > on the contrary, it is messy and distracting. Clear and simple explanation > should trump pedanticism. We agree on the principles, but disagree about (some of) the concrete uses of the quotes. So reiterating the principles is not useful. > The bug report that started this thread stemmed from confusion > induced by unnecessary quotes, and many of the quotes you recently > reintroduced are just as unnecessary and could easily cause similar > confusion. As I said, we disagree. I thought many of the quotes you removed should not have been removed. That includes some of the removals I left alone, because they are really borderline IMO.