From unknown Sun Jun 22 07:48:58 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21441: 25.0.50; doc of `make-char-table' Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 15:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 21441 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 21441@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.144181145821826 (code B ref -1); Wed, 09 Sep 2015 15:11:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2015 15:10:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53974 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1V-0005fx-Pa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:54468) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1T-0005fo-Q1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:56 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1T-0001mS-1q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:55 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:59541) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1S-0001m0-US for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:54 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36209) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1R-0007HY-LL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:54 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1M-0001dh-JY for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:53 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:34372) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1L-0001dB-Te for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:48 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t89FAlD8003909 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 15:10:47 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t89FAk6S010244 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 15:10:46 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t89FAkCH001238 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 15:10:46 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <08a7ab3a-5a20-4157-9cf5-a1b95ddf40b7@default> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 08:10:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) The doc is inconsistent and unclear wrt the first argument. In (elisp) `Char-Tables' the arg is named SUBTYPE. In the doc string it is named PURPOSE. Why SUBTYPE and not TYPE? There is no parent type described anywhere, for which this arg would be the SUBtype. Please make the doc clearer, reconciling the treatment of the arg as a "purpose" and as a "subtype". In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2015-08-16 on LEG570 Bzr revision: f7ee23e587b01f179284b5554c67d579a2def676 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --host=3Di686-pc-mingw32 --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs' From unknown Sun Jun 22 07:48:58 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.503 (Entity 5.503) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Drew Adams Subject: bug#21441: closed (Re: bug#21441: 25.0.50; doc of `make-char-table') Message-ID: References: <83oahb60nt.fsf@gnu.org> <08a7ab3a-5a20-4157-9cf5-a1b95ddf40b7@default> X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 21441 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 21441@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 16:04:02 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1441814642-27547-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1441814642-27547-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #21441: 25.0.50; doc of `make-char-table' which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 21441@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 21441: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D21441 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1441814642-27547-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 21441-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2015 16:03:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54028 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZhq5-00079E-EM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 12:03:13 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:49154) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZhq2-000794-CM for 21441-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 12:03:11 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NUF00J0037MWN00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 21441-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 19:02:50 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NUF00JVR38QMC50@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 19:02:50 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 19:02:46 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#21441: 25.0.50; doc of `make-char-table' In-reply-to: <08a7ab3a-5a20-4157-9cf5-a1b95ddf40b7@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83oahb60nt.fsf@gnu.org> References: <08a7ab3a-5a20-4157-9cf5-a1b95ddf40b7@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 21441-done Cc: 21441-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 08:10:45 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > > The doc is inconsistent and unclear wrt the first argument. > > In (elisp) `Char-Tables' the arg is named SUBTYPE. In the doc string it > is named PURPOSE. Why SUBTYPE and not TYPE? Because "type" is char-table. > Please make the doc clearer, reconciling the treatment of the arg as a > "purpose" and as a "subtype". The text before the description of make-char-table explains at length what is the subtype. I see nothing unclear there. I also see no reason to insists that the doc string and the manual use exactly the same nomenclature for the arguments. In sum, I see nothing that needs to be fixed here. I'm closing the bug. ------------=_1441814642-27547-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2015 15:10:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53974 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1V-0005fx-Pa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:58 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:54468) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1T-0005fo-Q1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:56 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1T-0001mS-1q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:55 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:59541) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1S-0001m0-US for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:54 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36209) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1R-0007HY-LL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:54 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1M-0001dh-JY for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:53 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:34372) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZh1L-0001dB-Te for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 11:10:48 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t89FAlD8003909 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 15:10:47 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t89FAk6S010244 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 15:10:46 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t89FAkCH001238 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 15:10:46 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <08a7ab3a-5a20-4157-9cf5-a1b95ddf40b7@default> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 08:10:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 25.0.50; doc of `make-char-table' X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) The doc is inconsistent and unclear wrt the first argument. In (elisp) `Char-Tables' the arg is named SUBTYPE. In the doc string it is named PURPOSE. Why SUBTYPE and not TYPE? There is no parent type described anywhere, for which this arg would be the SUBtype. Please make the doc clearer, reconciling the treatment of the arg as a "purpose" and as a "subtype". In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2015-08-16 on LEG570 Bzr revision: f7ee23e587b01f179284b5554c67d579a2def676 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --host=3Di686-pc-mingw32 --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs' ------------=_1441814642-27547-1-- From unknown Sun Jun 22 07:48:58 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#21441: 25.0.50; doc of `make-char-table' Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 16:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 21441 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Cc: 21441-done@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 21441-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D21441.144181529328531 (code D ref 21441); Wed, 09 Sep 2015 16:15:02 +0000 Received: (at 21441-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Sep 2015 16:14:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54051 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZi1M-0007Q7-NQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 12:14:53 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:49740) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZZi1K-0007Py-Cg for 21441-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2015 12:14:50 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t89GEma5032141 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 9 Sep 2015 16:14:49 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t89GEm1I011556 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 9 Sep 2015 16:14:48 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t89GElrY029848; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 16:14:47 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <05c22ac6-7f67-4976-ab73-36c3177b8e6a@default> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 09:14:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <<08a7ab3a-5a20-4157-9cf5-a1b95ddf40b7@default>> <<83oahb60nt.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83oahb60nt.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > The doc is inconsistent and unclear wrt the first argument. > > > > In (elisp) `Char-Tables' the arg is named SUBTYPE. In the doc string i= t > > is named PURPOSE. Why SUBTYPE and not TYPE? >=20 > Because "type" is char-table. The doc refers to "char-table" as _a_ char table, not as a type. And it says the each char table has a "subtype" (in quotes). That says that a table has a subtype, which is already unclear. A table is not considered a type,normally. If arg SUBTYPE is a subtype of "char-table", whatever is meant (and there is no explanation) by "subtype", then say so: say that SUBTYPE is a subtype of the char-table that is created by `make-char-table' (if that is what is meant - I'm really just guessing here, as the text is nearly totally unclear). > > Please make the doc clearer, reconciling the treatment of the arg as a > > "purpose" and as a "subtype". >=20 > The text before the description of make-char-table explains at length > what is the subtype. I see nothing unclear there.=20 See above. It is quite unclear as currently written. In addition, nothing about this is in the doc string. It seems to say something entirely different. > I also see no > reason to insists that the doc string and the manual use exactly the > same nomenclature for the arguments. I don't care about the nomenclature or the wording. What is not clear is the _message_. And in particular, whatever the message is, it does not seem to be the same, between the manual text and the doc string. > In sum, I see nothing that needs to be fixed here. > I'm closing the bug. Too bad. This doc is unclear. The problem is presumably that the message is clear to you, but you have not expressed it, and you cannot see that. When you read the text you think of your understanding of what you want to say, rather than only what the text says. Trust me, the text is not comprehensible - certainly not helpful enough. Not even enough for me to offer a suggestion - I do not understand what message it is really trying to convey.