From unknown Tue Jun 24 06:59:08 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20780: 25.0.50; explain where to find skeletons in autotype info manual Resent-From: Nicolas Richard Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 17:33:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 20780 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 20780@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.143387117313411 (code B ref -1); Tue, 09 Jun 2015 17:33:03 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2015 17:32:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46436 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2NOP-0003UF-7R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 13:32:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:32955) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2NOM-0003U2-RF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 13:32:51 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2NOG-0004KI-Vi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 13:32:45 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:43423) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2NOG-0004KE-Sh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 13:32:44 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46458) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2NOG-0003cY-2g for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 13:32:44 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2NOC-0004J2-Sx for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 13:32:44 -0400 Received: from mailrelay103.isp.belgacom.be ([195.238.20.130]:44141) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2NOC-0004Io-Mq for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 13:32:40 -0400 X-Belgacom-Dynamic: yes X-Cloudmark-SP-Filtered: true X-Cloudmark-SP-Result: v=1.1 cv=gx4LFt9C7U8MVtlopYu6y61Gbp9nqOyhneTyg/i0HKM= c=1 sm=2 a=a4K5GIyuExAA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=CRJ2RJFGazvHuTEpaHEA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A2DgNQA2IndV/7KQsltcgxABgQODTKlDBQEBAQEBAQUBBX8BklqHUU0BAQEBAQFpIkEDhAgzOx0CBSECEQEEJYhpAZ0yj1+kWYEhhHiKTYJSgUUFoB6Ge49AJIFIAQoBAQGCJDyCeAEBAQ Received: from 178.144-178-91.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be (HELO Aurora) ([91.178.144.178]) by relay.skynet.be with ESMTP; 09 Jun 2015 19:32:39 +0200 From: Nicolas Richard Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 19:32:39 +0200 Message-ID: <86eglkvlc8.fsf@members.fsf.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) I was trying to find a template/skeleton mechanism, and that leads to (info "(emacs) Text") : > The =E2=80=9Cautomatic typing=E2=80=9D features may be useful when wri= ting text. > *note The Autotype Manual: (autotype)Top. Following through to the autotype info page, I'm a bit disappointed because the manual explains how skeletons can: - accept input in section 1, - be modified with prefix arguments in section 2, - be called as abbrevs in section 3, and we have to wait section 4 to read about a (quite scary, IMO) way to define skeletons. I'm now convinced that it is in fact not expected that the *user* writes her own skeletons. Is that right ? If that is the case, I suggest to mention that fact right from the beginning, and maybe explicitly list a few places where skeletons are actually availables (which key). C-mode is mentionned but from "emacs -Q -f c-mode" I couldn't find anything in the menu. Nicolas. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Sep 29 19:25:27 2019 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2019 23:25:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56116 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iEiZD-0006qt-By for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Sep 2019 19:25:27 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f175.google.com ([209.85.210.175]:43220) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iEiZB-0006qa-UV for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Sep 2019 19:25:26 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f175.google.com with SMTP id a2so4464193pfo.10 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2019 16:25:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=dBnpZaWUxDdGhbJkziLKINnTZnjgjEwoBq97rKWow1w=; b=l+Q8EsCLgeFShwV8/4aOwDa20ayYsSGsW3eenfXD1UNYFi1kIXje0v/eI2aoSKyyVZ q9y39wCUXvz4hlu2F3jVAQoSncuRmKiwPkPksy79vZBEfdMkiiUGhpHXT+8y07+J/+DD LelE4/1oLf6eL55ppMZA2xJxjFaN04tPh+LBJuVbd7uCuKrRt/olzU6x1SEFu+rfogxD qFwkPa/VwcQdGd0WotafwfeFiRwL7GtyScp4ZT0FFoMAgVLO+QqBJnxkU17UgT3ywLtB Z8MIuFmez1kyirx5AY774R/1D3Hi+OQFRg5cnNnd9LB81qf3OBC+cRKaUDgTrUuyP5uM sgLA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW0k2fOXwy1te+/3wTeAX8h07tI4vO4KALIcUNQFTB3PUi7vrfu Opdl7dpdqVbzjN7F7cA//w1AxvujXy1tEnitfTWS/wzKA3w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz9EcH7ZBTU6rAPtbq2ChcNjMOqPo4u1oZiTAGaIuCV5LTGQNFyNSnWv/AVseU7Gj+uJg/awBMudc4rXqA3C5Q= X-Received: by 2002:a65:5802:: with SMTP id g2mr15344422pgr.333.1569799520122; Sun, 29 Sep 2019 16:25:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Stefan Kangas Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 01:25:08 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: severity 20780 wishlist quit Content analysis details: (2.0 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.210.175 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 0.0 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (stefankangas[at]gmail.com) 0.0 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different 2.0 BLANK_SUBJECT Subject is present but empty X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) severity 20780 wishlist quit From unknown Tue Jun 24 06:59:08 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20780: 25.0.50; explain where to find skeletons in autotype info manual Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 03:47:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20780 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Nicolas Richard Cc: 20780@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 20780-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20780.157059279530442 (code B ref 20780); Wed, 09 Oct 2019 03:47:01 +0000 Received: (at 20780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2019 03:46:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51823 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iI2vr-0007ud-9h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 23:46:35 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:52148) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iI2vq-0007sw-19 for 20780@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 23:46:34 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iI2vm-0002Bj-4q; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 05:46:32 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <86eglkvlc8.fsf@members.fsf.org> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 05:46:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: <86eglkvlc8.fsf@members.fsf.org> (Nicolas Richard's message of "Tue, 09 Jun 2015 19:32:39 +0200") Message-ID: <878spuvawa.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Nicolas Richard writes: > I was trying to find a template/skeleton mechanism, and that leads to > (info "(emacs) Text") : >> The =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9Cautomatic_?= =?UTF-8?Q?typing=E2=80=9D?= features may be useful when writing text. >> *note The Autotype Manual: [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Nicolas Richard writes: > I was trying to find a template/skeleton mechanism, and that leads to > (info "(emacs) Text") : >> The =E2=80=9Cautomatic typing=E2=80=9D features may be useful when wr= iting text. >> *note The Autotype Manual: (autotype)Top. > > Following through to the autotype info page, I'm a bit disappointed > because the manual explains how skeletons can: > - accept input in section 1, > - be modified with prefix arguments in section 2, > - be called as abbrevs in section 3, > and we have to wait section 4 to read about a (quite scary, > IMO) way to define skeletons. I'm now convinced that it is in fact not > expected that the *user* writes her own skeletons. Is that right ? I think that's right. > If that is the case, I suggest to mention that fact right from the > beginning, and maybe explicitly list a few places where skeletons are > actually availables (which key). C-mode is mentionned but from "emacs -Q > -f c-mode" I couldn't find anything in the menu. I wonder why the autotype manual is linked from the Emacs manual at all. It's a very low-level (lispref-like) manual, and doesn't really seem to be something we should steer users towards? --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Tue Jun 24 06:59:08 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20780: 25.0.50; explain where to find skeletons in autotype info manual Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 17:13:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20780 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 20780@debbugs.gnu.org, youngfrog@members.fsf.org Received: via spool by 20780-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20780.157064112210411 (code B ref 20780); Wed, 09 Oct 2019 17:13:01 +0000 Received: (at 20780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2019 17:12:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54007 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIFVH-0002hY-Lb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 13:12:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51661) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIFVF-0002hH-IH for 20780@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 13:11:57 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:44690) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iIFVA-0008C8-Fu; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 13:11:52 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2778 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1iIFV8-0002cn-9R; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 13:11:52 -0400 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 20:11:24 +0300 Message-Id: <83a7a9vo77.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <878spuvawa.fsf@gnus.org> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 09 Oct 2019 05:46:29 +0200) References: <86eglkvlc8.fsf@members.fsf.org> <878spuvawa.fsf@gnus.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen > Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 05:46:29 +0200 > Cc: 20780@debbugs.gnu.org > > I wonder why the autotype manual is linked from the Emacs manual at > all. It's a very low-level (lispref-like) manual, and doesn't really > seem to be something we should steer users towards? AFAIR because some user-level feature(s) is/are described only there. But I might be mistaken. From unknown Tue Jun 24 06:59:08 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20780: 25.0.50; explain where to find skeletons in autotype info manual Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 17:45:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20780 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 20780@debbugs.gnu.org, youngfrog@members.fsf.org Received: via spool by 20780-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20780.157064305713433 (code B ref 20780); Wed, 09 Oct 2019 17:45:01 +0000 Received: (at 20780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2019 17:44:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54027 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIG0X-0003Ub-FR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 13:44:17 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:40014) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIG0T-0003UQ-LB for 20780@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 13:44:15 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iIG0O-0002b8-CD; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 19:44:12 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <86eglkvlc8.fsf@members.fsf.org> <878spuvawa.fsf@gnus.org> <83a7a9vo77.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 19:44:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83a7a9vo77.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 09 Oct 2019 20:11:24 +0300") Message-ID: <875zkx95lk.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen >> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 05:46:29 +0200 >> Cc: 20780@debbugs.gnu.org >> >> I wonder why the autotype manual is linked from the Emacs manual at >> all. It's [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen >> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 05:46:29 +0200 >> Cc: 20780@debbugs.gnu.org >> >> I wonder why the autotype manual is linked from the Emacs manual at >> all. It's a very low-level (lispref-like) manual, and doesn't really >> seem to be something we should steer users towards? > > AFAIR because some user-level feature(s) is/are described only there. > But I might be mistaken. You're right; I didn't look closely enough. Basically the least user-friendly bit is the "Skeleton Language" node -- the rest are more or less something users can be expected to relate to. Would it make sense to just move that node to after the more user-facing nodes? @menu * Using Skeletons:: How to insert a skeleton into your text. * Wrapping Skeletons:: Putting existing text within a skeleton. * Skeletons as Abbrevs:: An alternative for issuing skeleton commands. * Skeleton Language:: Making skeleton commands insert what you want. * Inserting Pairs:: Typing one character and getting another after point. * Autoinserting:: Filling up empty files as soon as you visit them. * Copyrights:: Inserting and updating copyrights. * Executables:: Turning interpreter scripts into executables. * Timestamps:: Updating dates and times in modified files. * QuickURL:: Inserting URLs based on text at point. * Tempo:: Flexible template insertion. * Hippie Expand:: Expansion of text trying various methods. [...] @end menu -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Tue Jun 24 06:59:08 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20780: 25.0.50; explain where to find skeletons in autotype info manual Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:06:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20780 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 20780@debbugs.gnu.org, youngfrog@members.fsf.org Received: via spool by 20780-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20780.157064433915513 (code B ref 20780); Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:06:01 +0000 Received: (at 20780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2019 18:05:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54050 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIGLC-000429-Ke for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:05:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59525) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIGLA-00041v-Oh for 20780@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:05:37 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:46157) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iIGL5-0008DK-Hd; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:05:31 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2286 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1iIGL2-0006kA-Sw; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:05:30 -0400 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 21:05:08 +0300 Message-Id: <834l0hvlpn.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <875zkx95lk.fsf@gnus.org> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 09 Oct 2019 19:44:07 +0200) References: <86eglkvlc8.fsf@members.fsf.org> <878spuvawa.fsf@gnus.org> <83a7a9vo77.fsf@gnu.org> <875zkx95lk.fsf@gnus.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen > Cc: youngfrog@members.fsf.org, 20780@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 19:44:07 +0200 > > > AFAIR because some user-level feature(s) is/are described only there. > > But I might be mistaken. > > You're right; I didn't look closely enough. Basically the least > user-friendly bit is the "Skeleton Language" node -- the rest are more > or less something users can be expected to relate to. > > Would it make sense to just move that node to after the more user-facing > nodes? Fine with me, thanks. From unknown Tue Jun 24 06:59:08 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20780: 25.0.50; explain where to find skeletons in autotype info manual Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:09:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20780 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 20780@debbugs.gnu.org, youngfrog@members.fsf.org Received: via spool by 20780-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20780.157064450915807 (code B ref 20780); Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:09:01 +0000 Received: (at 20780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2019 18:08:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54058 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIGNx-00046r-D3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:08:29 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:40538) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIGNs-00046f-KO for 20780@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:08:25 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iIGNo-0002pz-RN; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 20:08:23 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <86eglkvlc8.fsf@members.fsf.org> <878spuvawa.fsf@gnus.org> <83a7a9vo77.fsf@gnu.org> <875zkx95lk.fsf@gnus.org> <834l0hvlpn.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 20:08:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: <834l0hvlpn.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 09 Oct 2019 21:05:08 +0300") Message-ID: <87k19d7pwr.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: > Fine with me, thanks. OK; done, and I'm closing this bug report. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Fine with me, thanks. OK; done, and I'm closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 09 14:08:33 2019 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2019 18:08:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54061 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIGO0-000479-S8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:08:33 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:40552) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIGNx-00046s-Rb for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:08:30 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iIGNv-0002q7-9B for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 20:08:29 +0200 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 20:08:26 +0200 Message-Id: <87imox7pwl.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #20780 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 20780 fixed close 20780 27.1 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 20780 fixed close 20780 27.1 quit From unknown Tue Jun 24 06:59:08 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20780: 25.0.50; explain where to find skeletons in autotype info manual Resent-From: Nicolas Richard Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 22:08:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20780 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: fixed To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Eli Zaretskii Cc: 20780@debbugs.gnu.org, youngfrog@members.fsf.org Received: via spool by 20780-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20780.157065884414243 (code B ref 20780); Wed, 09 Oct 2019 22:08:01 +0000 Received: (at 20780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2019 22:07:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54345 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIK79-0003hf-Qc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:07:24 -0400 Received: from sonic305-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.177.83]:41447) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIK77-0003hR-Db for 20780@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:07:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.fr; s=s2048; t=1570658835; bh=AHp0BTZ5FEnDUMeXQSDUQbMIhxZY5eKEor/kMVeuJqg=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=UI+73dYb6LcvmelXVy7FYUUIYXfkROdVkguA2+TrOsPDLy/lgjpusjbZhTsExH7ewD/UXVpqd6+MAuWpD6Fg6m0MDR2at5VSBKShl2h65wNcRASbgv7RZ/uxEzHhenA3WZpn7/wdzl38UgwqNowXUARJ4XHVLIb4EqvTXoKXjEmiPbIpHIHalYbh8SMNxejpv2xsKaBeoD9EErPYaTcCi5uPkwY+O+0+ezVW1o997iWPdOek1gzhOpOn7hA8XsKAak+WhIbOKUV3AU8106xdKI48anUvGQZ37Zh7Xi/u+hOqLIzCIzxYXCq+k6DI/9Ic53yFTLedJteYheKcr0nYsg== X-YMail-OSG: iJRNos0VM1k29AwYlLsTrntNECwKwKoe5ClGvryVuHuiZwLVwOZunhEnliagmKE raFnT49xBjonQkL..cc0UdUeX72PiimErWvuXRSM0iZByfaK3L915d8cZgndRN7UudrgeB_5M1gD 1nWb5OfTnWySCJDCIqxwhEQaCmHDHTGmXfu_uJxOVOKHn2AKmJte4rMOLb1SL2TqyofufhAPxk7d bzrRu0V9Buo0osiAogQJm6UZW7MxzWEQ9SN5FDwCzikdRU4VlcmoGdo5s_FRDiKF5xIZVhGUucuT k8841IpzndpQtOzAZ3pKBnh64mA5zPgioId9j_c_5kaPangIgUk3o1t1CkU.BXTl7ojWlcjrDYAZ 9S0nWzXZPvY1SOy3ZNrQE1_LNJl6cVS2mK4F8gekFSjOKMlWZHQ6PZuRvQezMgAoq6IBh12Fy3MQ KYP1QDwX455TcyeIem3ni95Z3NVJuIlkNJksH7OQymsf5N34Yrpf4R9XT_.mDY5L0GkzqJL0Had6 .myR8rAtDZISDwqm1rbgEjncpWuRdjI9S_cGOELbe8fyNU2Ig8z5YUf94oVW.6kmOdXwGndDm3F5 cnJnM7cxyB7_K0BTexSeeCOfkKxtS7eWRCNoNxosf.EPFyrlLDxWp9HKdnDfEmEhYgfdq05d9xGz 2v2hB05ge5fTMkyf51uF4FZJiKObfD3jJ2Ejrmv7gD6epoyKznjejRMXAX7c8AhHVD91GuhXy1Qd r4JEHPHmV19kymza70IGZDj7s2VvQ7eJbK1A3lTHlUjEVg0wdMcghKGCrGqimgsNLzQnxIRk94H3 PVlLYnLB6CeXipfVsjDLis3lqMq2E_H23cssHpC_T9TzDWS0dUemVGjCE_syFyaGStr7XuA1s8ob Iv.o0P._tCnTTbB2KU_U5iCHzuHVePifvh.ighM3OhuDi4zBKePxtgQIEWqhCGAKTy5rZEvn33lT Wa9NP3QrB1MTJZ8UNF3PR9HU3KssT0wdHni2ik4Lg_A7MvIvp5AQDqgICq.C8tvQacsZN4PLIcQX hBdLiExHqajUGP9QA0M2ZQ.sFAc4h9NRIjX54tNNqf7cgN3u6KA5iuiG2pmnBz4byKJmdiH6SaKD P6Ndk0NNNYSHAjE6dklofh5J1zL25uurihUy.rZzQ6T_2pMf6XOkrs2EzHrTqZAxq6mXaCq760mG xqw2X6kBkdjI7rQD6upJP.ZXjliJjYCtWUR9FbUUOb30Xhl.pU87PDLD3ezUCPeXRulfMt73bo6b lESsOlA7hkavL_B2nh1fTw472EsRF1uQVEWsihMfUhko9LURyi_qkmQGyBGyNZzHRxDWIboEO_gr zux2aclI- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 22:07:15 +0000 Received: by smtp405.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d50ccae8965e717ce1ea71ccfedbc9ce; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 22:07:11 +0000 (UTC) References: <86eglkvlc8.fsf@members.fsf.org> <878spuvawa.fsf@gnus.org> <83a7a9vo77.fsf@gnu.org> <875zkx95lk.fsf@gnus.org> <834l0hvlpn.fsf@gnu.org> <87k19d7pwr.fsf@gnus.org> From: Nicolas Richard Message-ID: <97726d28-3219-2598-c5a1-6c70bfdd974e@yahoo.fr> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 00:07:10 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87k19d7pwr.fsf@gnus.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 09/10/19 20:08, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >> Fine with me, thanks. > > OK; done, and I'm closing this bug report. Thanks for taking care of this bug report. FWIW I had not looked any further into skeletons since I wrote the bug report, and I still have no clue on how to use them. I thought I'd give it another try just now: at (info "(autotype) Skeletons as Abbrevs") I found: > Say you want ???ifst??? to be an abbreviation for the C language if > statement. You will tell Emacs that ???ifst??? expands to the empty string > and then calls the skeleton command. In Emacs Lisp you can say > something like ???(define-abbrev c-mode-abbrev-table "ifst" "" 'c-if)???. I tried to run that piece of lisp, then typed ifst in a test.c file, and all I got was an error (void-function c-if) I do understand that c-if is not defined as a function, but is it expected that *I* write it ? I was hoping it would just work out of the box. I still think we should mention some workings examples in the manual, near the beginning of it. Now I'm grepping for '(define-skeleton' in the git repo. It returns results in sh-script.el, modula2.el, python.el and a few others. Could any of those be mentionned in section 1 ? e.g. in shell-script-mode, C-c C-c runs sh-case, which is a skeleton. I think it's a great example of all the things mentionned in section 1. thanks, -- Nicolas. From unknown Tue Jun 24 06:59:08 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20780: 25.0.50; explain where to find skeletons in autotype info manual Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 07:45:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20780 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: fixed To: Nicolas Richard Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 20780@debbugs.gnu.org, youngfrog@members.fsf.org Received: via spool by 20780-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20780.157077985017145 (code B ref 20780); Fri, 11 Oct 2019 07:45:02 +0000 Received: (at 20780) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Oct 2019 07:44:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57629 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIpar-0004SR-NE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 03:44:09 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:55748) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIpaq-0004SH-3j for 20780@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 03:44:08 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iIpal-0001wL-VP; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 09:44:06 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <86eglkvlc8.fsf@members.fsf.org> <878spuvawa.fsf@gnus.org> <83a7a9vo77.fsf@gnu.org> <875zkx95lk.fsf@gnus.org> <834l0hvlpn.fsf@gnu.org> <87k19d7pwr.fsf@gnus.org> <97726d28-3219-2598-c5a1-6c70bfdd974e@yahoo.fr> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 09:44:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: <97726d28-3219-2598-c5a1-6c70bfdd974e@yahoo.fr> (Nicolas Richard's message of "Thu, 10 Oct 2019 00:07:10 +0200") Message-ID: <874l0fohfg.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Nicolas Richard writes: > I still think we should mention some workings examples in the manual, > near the beginning of it. > > Now I'm grepping for '(define-skeleton' in the git repo. > It returns results in sh-script.el, m [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Nicolas Richard writes: > I still think we should mention some workings examples in the manual, > near the beginning of it. > > Now I'm grepping for '(define-skeleton' in the git repo. > It returns results in sh-script.el, modula2.el, python.el and a few > others. Could any of those be mentionned in section 1 ? e.g. in > shell-script-mode, C-c C-c runs sh-case, which is a skeleton. I think > it's a great example of all the things mentionned in section 1. I think adding an example to the manual would be great, but I'm not sure which. The one you mention seems a bit excessive for the manual... (define-skeleton sh-case "Insert a case/switch statement. See `sh-feature'." (csh "expression: " "switch( " str " )" \n > "case " (read-string "pattern: ") ?: \n > _ \n "breaksw" \n ( "other pattern, %s: " < "case " str ?: \n > _ \n "breaksw" \n) < "default:" \n > _ \n resume: < < "endsw" \n) (es) (rc "expression: " > "switch( " str " ) {" \n > "case " (read-string "pattern: ") \n > _ \n ( "other pattern, %s: " "case " str > \n > _ \n) "case *" > \n > _ \n resume: ?\} > \n) (sh "expression: " > "case " str " in" \n ( "pattern, %s: " > str sh-non-closing-paren \n > _ \n ";;" \n) > "*" sh-non-closing-paren \n > _ \n resume: "esac" > \n)) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no