From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:12:31 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#20540 <20540@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#20540 <20540@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 25.0.50; Document tooltip woes, including `help-echo' Reply-To: bug#20540 <20540@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2025 20:12:31 +0000 retitle 20540 25.0.50; Document tooltip woes, including `help-echo' reassign 20540 emacs submitter 20540 Drew Adams severity 20540 wishlist thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 09 19:27:25 2015 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2015 23:27:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39784 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrE9V-0002NU-0h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 19:27:25 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:38575) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrE9R-0002ND-Ta for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 19:27:22 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrE9H-0000tD-TV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 19:27:16 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:54616) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrE9H-0000t7-QK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 19:27:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52072) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrE9G-0003zh-PX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 19:27:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrE9C-0000sS-OJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 19:27:10 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:46086) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrE9C-0000sG-GJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 19:27:06 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t49NR4oT024768 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sat, 9 May 2015 23:27:05 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t49NR475030539 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 9 May 2015 23:27:04 GMT Received: from abhmp0006.oracle.com (abhmp0006.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t49NR4aL029607 for ; Sat, 9 May 2015 23:27:04 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <795eb88f-e9e7-4728-82d8-32d0caea52fb@default> Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 16:27:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 25.0.50; Document tooltip woes, including `help-echo' X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) 1. If you create a tooltip using, say, `x-show-tip', you can control the font, text color and size, background color, etc. Well, only some frame parameters seem to have any effect, when passed in argument PARMS. Just which parameters can or cannot be used for PARMS should be documented. 2. The word `tooltip' is hardly mentioned in the doc. Another doc fix would be to document `tooltip-mode' properly in the Elisp manual, saying which frame parameters you can use for `tooltip-frame-parameters', etc. 3. A related bug in `tooltip.el' is that the defcustom for `tooltip-frame-parameters' has no :type. Impossible for a user to customize the value properly using Customize. And no help about which parameters can be used effectively (see #2, above). 4. `help-echo': No doc saying whether the string can be propertized, and if so, which properties have any effect. Although `x-show-tip' seems to let you change the char size, color, background color, etc., and you can use property `display' with `help-echo', apparently you cannot change the face attributes of the `help-echo' string so that the appearance changes. This is quite a limitation, AFAICT. All of this kind of thing should be documented: what you can and cannot do - which parameters have an effect. You can make `help-echo' show an image instead of text, but you cannot simply change the text appearance of a `help-echo' string? How are users supposed to guess what is possible? Should be documented. In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2014-10-20 on LEG570 Bzr revision: 118168 rgm@gnu.org-20141020195941-icp42t8ttcnud09g Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs CPPFLAGS=3D-DGLYPH_DEBUG=3D1' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 09 22:48:39 2015 Received: (at 20540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 May 2015 02:48:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39794 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrHIF-0007MC-1y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 22:48:39 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:49340) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrHIB-0007Lw-KS for 20540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 22:48:36 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NO400C00507CD00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 20540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 05:48:29 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NO400CZ854S3150@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sun, 10 May 2015 05:48:29 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 05:48:46 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20540: 25.0.50; Document tooltip woes, including `help-echo' In-reply-to: <795eb88f-e9e7-4728-82d8-32d0caea52fb@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83d229no4x.fsf@gnu.org> References: <795eb88f-e9e7-4728-82d8-32d0caea52fb@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20540 Cc: 20540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 16:27:05 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > > 1. If you create a tooltip using, say, `x-show-tip', you can control the > font, text color and size, background color, etc. Well, only some frame > parameters seem to have any effect, when passed in argument PARMS. Just > which parameters can or cannot be used for PARMS should be documented. > > 2. The word `tooltip' is hardly mentioned in the doc. Another doc fix > would be to document `tooltip-mode' properly in the Elisp manual, saying > which frame parameters you can use for `tooltip-frame-parameters', etc. > > 3. A related bug in `tooltip.el' is that the defcustom for > `tooltip-frame-parameters' has no :type. Impossible for a user to > customize the value properly using Customize. And no help about which > parameters can be used effectively (see #2, above). > > 4. `help-echo': No doc saying whether the string can be propertized, and > if so, which properties have any effect. Although `x-show-tip' seems to > let you change the char size, color, background color, etc., and you can > use property `display' with `help-echo', apparently you cannot change > the face attributes of the `help-echo' string so that the appearance > changes. This is quite a limitation, AFAICT. > > All of this kind of thing should be documented: what you can and cannot > do - which parameters have an effect. You can make `help-echo' show an > image instead of text, but you cannot simply change the text appearance > of a `help-echo' string? How are users supposed to guess what is > possible? Should be documented. You've omitted the facts you've found, for some reason. That's a bad idea: since no one really knows about these limitations, if you want to raise the chances that this bug report will be acted upon, I urge you to describe everything you tried and found not to work, so that whoever takes upon this task will have the "bread-crumbs" to go by. Otherwise, researching this issue from scratch is an unpleasant task that is unlikely to find its volunteer. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 10 10:36:34 2015 Received: (at 20540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 May 2015 14:36:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40142 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrSLJ-00027S-7L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 10:36:33 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:17925) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrSLG-00027B-Fw for 20540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 10:36:31 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t4AEaOnD006167 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 May 2015 14:36:24 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t4AEaN0T020737 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 10 May 2015 14:36:24 GMT Received: from abhmp0006.oracle.com (abhmp0006.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t4AEaNLX020679; Sun, 10 May 2015 14:36:23 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 07:36:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#20540: 25.0.50; Document tooltip woes, including `help-echo' References: <<795eb88f-e9e7-4728-82d8-32d0caea52fb@default>> <<83d229no4x.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83d229no4x.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20540 Cc: 20540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > You've omitted the facts you've found, for some reason. That's a > bad idea: since no one really knows about these limitations, Someone who understands the code (C code, IIUC) can discover them. > if you want to raise the chances that this bug report will be acted > upon, I urge you to describe everything you tried and found not to > work, so that whoever takes upon this task will have the "bread-crumbs" > to go by. Otherwise, researching this issue from scratch is an > unpleasant task that is unlikely to find its volunteer. Thanks. I'll try. But I don't have many such "facts". Someone familiar with the code would need to specify what is and is not possible for users to do. I would hope that some of the limitations would be removed, but any limitations should be documented. I mention here some superficial tests I tried, in case it helps. > > 1. If you create a tooltip using, say, `x-show-tip', you can > > control the font, text color and size, background color, etc. > > Well, only some frame parameters seem to have any effect, when > > passed in argument PARMS. Just which parameters can or cannot be > > used for PARMS should be documented. (defun foo (&optional height) (interactive (list (and current-prefix-arg (prefix-numeric-value current-prefix-arg)))) (unless height (setq height 1)) (x-show-tip (propertize (string (char-after)) 'face `(:foreground "red" :height ,(* 200 height))))) Other face parameters (e.g. :font) do not seem to be reflected. Likewise frame parameters (arg PARMS). I also tried binding `tooltip-frame-parameters' in such a function, but couldn't get that to change the tooltip frame parameters either. I also tried customizing face `tooltip', but that seems to have no effect for `x-show-tip' or for `help-echo' tooltips for `tooltip-mode'. Perhaps that is normal for MS Windows, but I don't see any doc about it. > > 2. The word `tooltip' is hardly mentioned in the doc. Another doc > > fix would be to document `tooltip-mode' properly in the Elisp manual, > > saying which frame parameters you can use for `tooltip-frame-parameters= ', > > etc. The only "facts" here are from searching the Emacs and Elisp manuals. The Emacs manual has node `Tooltips', and there are other places where "tooltip" is mentioned, but they essentially refer to node `Tooltips'. The Elisp manual, which is really what I care about in this context, has a few occurrences of "tooltip", which say that tooltip frames do not count for this or that operation. E.g. `Deleting Frames' says "Unless FRAME is a tooltip...". Node `Special Properties' mentions the word in passing, and sends you to the Emacs manual, node `Tooltips'. IOW, nothing technical about tooltips here - just mention of what a tooltip is. Other occurrences of the term in the Elisp manual do not add anything in this regard. > > 3. A related bug in `tooltip.el' is that the defcustom for > > `tooltip-frame-parameters' has no :type. Impossible for a user to > > customize the value properly using Customize. And no help about > > which parameters can be used effectively (see #2, above). That fact is expressed clearly enough, no? > > 4. `help-echo': No doc saying whether the string can be > > propertized, and if so, which properties have any effect. That fact is expressed clearly enough, no? > > Although `x-show-tip' seems to let you change the char size, color, > > background color, etc., and you can use property `display' with > > `help-echo', Do you need an example of using `display' with `help-echo'? I use a sexp like this for `help-echo' in dired+.el, to show a thumbnail preview of an image file on mouseover: (propertize " " 'display (create-image file)) > > apparently you cannot change the face attributes of the `help-echo' > > string so that the appearance changes. This is quite a limitation, > > AFAICT. (defun foo () (interactive) (add-text-properties (line-beginning-position) (+ 20 (line-beginning-position)) `(mouse-face underline help-echo ,(propertize (word-at-point) 'face '(:foreground "red" :height 200))))) The tooltip does not reflect what `propertize' should do here. > > All of this kind of thing should be documented: what you can and > > cannot do - which parameters have an effect. You can make > > `help-echo' show an image instead of text, See above. > > but you cannot simply change the text appearance of a `help-echo' > > string? How are users supposed to guess what is possible? > > Should be documented. HTH. I don't really know what is allowed and what is not - or why. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 10 10:38:57 2015 Received: (at 20540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 May 2015 14:38:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40146 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrSNd-0002At-Am for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 10:38:57 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:64655) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrSNa-0002Ae-9K for 20540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 10:38:55 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NO500J001Z1YC00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 20540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 17:38:46 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NO500JLW20MS440@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sun, 10 May 2015 17:38:46 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 17:38:39 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20540: 25.0.50; Document tooltip woes, including `help-echo' In-reply-to: <795eb88f-e9e7-4728-82d8-32d0caea52fb@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83bnhso5u8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <795eb88f-e9e7-4728-82d8-32d0caea52fb@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20540 Cc: 20540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 16:27:05 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > > 3. A related bug in `tooltip.el' is that the defcustom for > `tooltip-frame-parameters' has no :type. Impossible for a user to > customize the value properly using Customize. And no help about which > parameters can be used effectively (see #2, above). I cannot reproduce this one: my tooltip.el has this: (defcustom tooltip-frame-parameters '((name . "tooltip") (internal-border-width . 2) (border-width . 1)) "Frame parameters used for tooltips. If `left' or `top' parameters are included, they specify the absolute position to pop up the tooltip. Note that font and color parameters are ignored, and the attributes of the `tooltip' face are used instead." :type 'sexp <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< :group 'tooltip) According to Git, this line was there for the last 18 years. > 4. `help-echo': No doc saying whether the string can be propertized, and > if so, which properties have any effect. Although `x-show-tip' seems to > let you change the char size, color, background color, etc., and you can > use property `display' with `help-echo', apparently you cannot change > the face attributes of the `help-echo' string so that the appearance > changes. This is quite a limitation, AFAICT. See above: the doc string of tooltip-frame-parameters says font and color parameters are ignored. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 10 11:27:21 2015 Received: (at 20540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 May 2015 15:27:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40156 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrT8S-0003LO-Cu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 11:27:20 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:53795) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrT8P-0003L5-Ne for 20540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 11:27:18 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NO50040045AS000@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 20540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 18:26:56 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NO5004EY48VRP10@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Sun, 10 May 2015 18:26:56 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 18:26:47 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20540: 25.0.50; Document tooltip woes, including `help-echo' In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83zj5cmp1k.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20540 Cc: 20540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 07:36:25 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 20540@debbugs.gnu.org > > > You've omitted the facts you've found, for some reason. That's a > > bad idea: since no one really knows about these limitations, > > Someone who understands the code (C code, IIUC) can discover them. Yes, but there are a lot of frame parameters; trying them one by one is a lot of work. Just by looking at the code, I see nothing special, except the obvious omissions, such as scroll bars. > > if you want to raise the chances that this bug report will be acted > > upon, I urge you to describe everything you tried and found not to > > work, so that whoever takes upon this task will have the "bread-crumbs" > > to go by. Otherwise, researching this issue from scratch is an > > unpleasant task that is unlikely to find its volunteer. Thanks. > > I'll try. But I don't have many such "facts". Whatever you tried and saw failed will be helpful, TIA. > I mention here some superficial tests I tried, in case it helps. Thanks, it does help. > > > Although `x-show-tip' seems to let you change the char size, color, > > > background color, etc., and you can use property `display' with > > > `help-echo', > > Do you need an example of using `display' with `help-echo'? I use > a sexp like this for `help-echo' in dired+.el, to show a thumbnail > preview of an image file on mouseover: > > (propertize " " 'display (create-image file)) This is good enough, thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 10 12:11:59 2015 Received: (at 20540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 May 2015 16:11:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40178 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrTpe-0004PI-Ea for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 12:11:59 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:28717) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrTpb-0004P2-Ui for 20540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 12:11:56 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t4AGBmDo030227 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 10 May 2015 16:11:50 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t4AGBm7N019918 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 10 May 2015 16:11:48 GMT Received: from abhmp0004.oracle.com (abhmp0004.oracle.com [141.146.116.10]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t4AGBmKM032527; Sun, 10 May 2015 16:11:48 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 09:11:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#20540: 25.0.50; Document tooltip woes, including `help-echo' References: <<795eb88f-e9e7-4728-82d8-32d0caea52fb@default>> <<83bnhso5u8.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83bnhso5u8.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20540 Cc: 20540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > 3. ... the defcustom for `tooltip-frame-parameters' has no :type... >=20 > I cannot reproduce this one: my tooltip.el has this: Sorry, my bad. (Perhaps it was the gratuitous extra blank line after the first doc-string line that threw me off and made me think the doc string and definition ended there. Dunno why such lines are added sometimes. Those are (minor) bugs, AFAICT. I don't mean this as an excuse for my not reading the defcustom more carefully, but it might be the reason that I was mistaken.) And I see now that the doc string says that "font and color parameters are ignored, and the attributes of the `tooltip' face are used instead." It would be good to add info that to the doc in the manual, IMO. So yes, there is a :type. But the :type value should, I think, be something more like this, not just `sexp': :type '(alist :key-type (symbol :tag "Parameter") :value-type (sexp :tag "Value")) The :tag's are not required, but at least the type should be :alist, I think. Unless I'm missing something - can it ever be something besides an alist? Especially if only some frame parameters are allowed as keys (the others are ignored, so why allow them for customization?), maybe a more restrictive type than `symbol' should be used - e.g. `restricted-sexp' with matching for the allowed symbols. (You will perhaps argue that we didn't exclude including ignored parameters before, so this would be an incompatible change. I can't really argue against that, except to say that it still might not be bad to start now, raising an error when you try to add an "ignored" parameter.) > > 4. `help-echo': No doc saying whether the string can be > > propertized, and if so, which properties have any effect. > > Although `x-show-tip' seems to let you change the char size, color, > > background color, etc., and you can use property `display' with > > `help-echo', apparently you cannot change the face attributes of > > the `help-echo' string so that the appearance > > changes. This is quite a limitation, AFAICT. >=20 > See above: the doc string of tooltip-frame-parameters says font and > color parameters are ignored. #4 is about `help-echo'. Search the Elisp manual for `help-echo'. See node `Special Properties', for instance. Nowhere does it specify such limitations, AFAICT. And font and color parameters are not the only ones ignored. And see the rest of the bug report, including the part about `x-show-tip' - which face attributes and which frame parameters have no effect? And why is `help-echo' more limited wrt specifying tooltip appearance than is `x-show-tip'? There are several things said in the doc or doc strings here and there about tooltips, but (a) the doc is incomplete and (b) it's not clear what the relations between the various things are: `help-echo' string properties, `x-show-tip' frame, `tooltip-frame-parameters'. Apparently (from experimentation) `x-show-tip' does not bother with `tooltip-frame-parameters'. But you seem to be suggesting that a `help-echo' tooltip does, and that `help-echo' string properties are overridden by `tooltip-frame-parameters' frame-parameter limitations, and that all of this should be obvious. At least that's my guess, based on your repeating, for #4 (`help-echo'), the info about the doc string of `tooltip-frame-parameters'. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jun 22 10:42:17 2021 Received: (at 20540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jun 2021 14:42:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39635 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lvhbV-00075R-Hg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:42:17 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37550) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lvhbT-00075D-Dk for 20540@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:42:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6G4p6/C+v2XTf+DazVKqdI0xqM4Kdc1CG4X6KdldA/E=; b=JreN38tj7um/ruVudpqrYLzI1t mXK1865WyaFpm8fZs5HhENQx325pR8wre3i0Dmi2k5xdcZZSb6d+8l3bkt/hQGGg8WMaxS/hHjXTc rvLQWgDUYlalaq7Heq9ZkLQsmP7b6OSHtG3enK/o3TDUT6Co5Zrij5R08QTRTGX0Wmcs=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lvhbK-0007jB-VI; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 16:42:09 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#20540: 25.0.50; Document tooltip woes, including `help-echo' References: <795eb88f-e9e7-4728-82d8-32d0caea52fb@default> X-Now-Playing: Supertramp's _Breakfast in America_: "Goodbye Stranger" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 16:42:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: <795eb88f-e9e7-4728-82d8-32d0caea52fb@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 9 May 2015 16:27:05 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87mtrinept.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Drew Adams writes: > 4. `help-echo': No doc saying whether the string can be propertized, and > if so, which properties have any effect. Although `x-show-tip' seems to > let you change the char size, color, background c [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20540 Cc: 20540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Drew Adams writes: > 4. `help-echo': No doc saying whether the string can be propertized, and > if so, which properties have any effect. Although `x-show-tip' seems to > let you change the char size, color, background color, etc., and you can > use property `display' with `help-echo', apparently you cannot change > the face attributes of the `help-echo' string so that the appearance > changes. This is quite a limitation, AFAICT. This was apparently fixed in: commit 4a112fd7a6f0dcbd1b99b811b324123f5699bdfb Author: Stefan Kangas AuthorDate: Mon Mar 8 03:29:42 2021 +0100 Some of the other documentation things discussed in this bug report should then be OK (since it now works), and the tooltip frame parameter stuff was (if I'm skimming this thread correctly) working as supposed. So I'm closing this bug report. If there's more to be done in this area, please open a new bug report with those specifics. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jun 22 10:42:22 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jun 2021 14:42:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39638 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lvhbZ-00075i-RJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:42:22 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37564) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lvhbX-00075I-IU for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:42:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Ax3Zn4bTvODyPkMc+XXkitU46x9LirCOAe8h3xeQbcs=; b=fa1I78I4AmJSB4ko1n8EoWfog7 iFNoJuAou+6n6/TD+1zcXpDUCreA9yz9rI3xga0TPzvwrOhPbc4BVBjeldsHpLbRVjJjvghQYODPm 70I85bnYjIQ75bvvH3X70jEFPdkE52CfRMM+ZdbmeEPBUsg9Ib3kxzsfV4ZSDphb/b4I=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lvhbQ-0007jI-4S for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 22 Jun 2021 16:42:14 +0200 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 16:42:11 +0200 Message-Id: <87lf72nepo.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #20540 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 20540 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 20540 quit From unknown Mon Jun 23 13:12:31 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2021 11:24:07 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator