From unknown Mon Aug 18 14:21:03 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#20499 <20499@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#20499 <20499@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. Reply-To: bug#20499 <20499@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 21:21:03 +0000 retitle 20499 [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, et= c. reassign 20499 emacs submitter 20499 Paul Eggert severity 20499 wishlist tag 20499 patch thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 03 21:14:48 2015 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 01:14:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32833 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yp4y7-00047Y-C3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2015 21:14:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:52542) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yp4y5-00047L-HF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2015 21:14:46 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yp4xy-0001FO-TI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2015 21:14:40 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:48109) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yp4xy-0001FH-Qa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2015 21:14:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37809) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yp4xx-0002y3-Cn for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2015 21:14:38 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yp4xu-0001Eq-6i for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2015 21:14:37 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:49428) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yp4xt-0001Dm-V2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2015 21:14:34 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED6939E8019 for ; Sun, 3 May 2015 18:14:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SKh20ozV-H3B; Sun, 3 May 2015 18:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 68AA8A60006; Sun, 3 May 2015 18:14:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Eggert To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 18:13:10 -0700 Message-Id: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> X-Mailer: git-send-email 2.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) Although C-x 8 lets you insert arbitrary Unicode characters, it's awkward to use this to insert commonly used symbols such as curved quotes, the Euro symbol, etc. This patch adds simpler sequences for ISO 8859-15 characters (which includes the Euro), plus characters that are commonly found in English text and in basic math. For example, assuming the Alt key works on your keyboard and iso-transl is loaded, one can now type "A-[" instead of "A-RET LEFT SIN TAB RET" to get the character "=E2=80=98" (U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK). * doc/emacs/mule.texi (Unibyte Mode), etc/NEWS: Latin-9 and a few other printing characters now work too. * lisp/international/iso-transl.el (iso-transl-char-map): Also support ISO 8859-15 characters (e.g., "=E2=82=AC"), plus the charact= ers "=E2=80=93=E2=80=94=E2=80=98=E2=80=99=E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A0=E2=80=A1= =E2=80=A2=E2=80=B2=E2=80=B3=E2=86=90=E2=86=92=E2=86=94=E2=88=92=E2=89=88=E2= =89=A0=E2=89=A4=E2=89=A5" which are commonly used in English text or basic math. This patch is a followup to Bug#20385; although it is a separate issue and does not fix Bug#20385, it could make fixing Bug#20385 easier. --- doc/emacs/mule.texi | 4 ++-- etc/NEWS | 2 ++ lisp/international/iso-transl.el | 33 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++- 3 files changed, 36 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-) diff --git a/doc/emacs/mule.texi b/doc/emacs/mule.texi index de381df..03e70da 100644 --- a/doc/emacs/mule.texi +++ b/doc/emacs/mule.texi @@ -1660,8 +1660,8 @@ characters present directly on the keyboard or usin= g @key{Compose} or @cindex compose character @cindex dead character @item -For Latin-1 only, you can use the key @kbd{C-x 8} as a ``compose -character'' prefix for entry of non-@acronym{ASCII} Latin-1 printing +You can use the key @kbd{C-x 8} as a ``compose character'' prefix for +entry of non-@acronym{ASCII} Latin-1, Latin-9, and a few other printing characters. @kbd{C-x 8} is good for insertion (in the minibuffer as well as other buffers), for searching, and in any other context where a key sequence is allowed. diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS index 7497652..3313c56 100644 --- a/etc/NEWS +++ b/etc/NEWS @@ -213,6 +213,8 @@ successive char insertions. =20 ** Unicode names entered via C-x 8 RET now use substring completion by d= efault. =20 +** C-x 8 now has shorthands for Latin-9 and a few other commonly used ch= ars. + ** New minor mode global-eldoc-mode is enabled by default. =20 ** Emacs now supports "bracketed paste mode" when running on a terminal diff --git a/lisp/international/iso-transl.el b/lisp/international/iso-tr= ansl.el index 73bcae0..ac91c1e 100644 --- a/lisp/international/iso-transl.el +++ b/lisp/international/iso-transl.el @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input definitions for ISO 8859-1 -*- cod= ing: utf-8 -*- +;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input for ISO characters -*- coding: utf-= 8 -*- =20 ;; Copyright (C) 1987, 1993-1999, 2001-2015 Free Software Foundation, ;; Inc. @@ -36,6 +36,10 @@ ;; to make all of the Alt keys autoload, and it is not clear ;; that the dead accent keys SHOULD autoload this package. =20 +;; This package supports all characters defined by ISO 8859-1 and ISO 88= 59-15, +;; along with a few other ISO 10646 characters commonly used in English +;; and computing text. + ;;; Code: =20 ;;; Provide some binding for startup: @@ -192,6 +196,33 @@ ("~o" . [?=C3=B5]) ("~t" . [?=C3=BE]) ("~~" . [?=C2=AC]) + ("OE" . [?=C5=92]) + ("Oe" . [?=C5=93]) + ("vS" . [?=C5=A0]) + ("vs" . [?=C5=A1]) + ("\"Y" . [?=C5=B8]) + ("vZ" . [?=C5=BD]) + ("vz" . [?=C5=BE]) + ("_n" . [?=E2=80=93]) + ("_m" . [?=E2=80=94]) + ("[" . [?=E2=80=98]) + ("]" . [?=E2=80=99]) + ("{" . [?=E2=80=9C]) + ("}" . [?=E2=80=9D]) + ("1+" . [?=E2=80=A0]) + ("2+" . [?=E2=80=A1]) + ("**" . [?=E2=80=A2]) + ("*'" . [?=E2=80=B2]) + ("*\"" . [?=E2=80=B3]) + ("*E" . [?=E2=82=AC]) + ("a<" . [?=E2=86=90]) + ("a>" . [?=E2=86=92]) + ("a=3D" . [?=E2=86=94]) + ("_-" . [?=E2=88=92]) + ("~=3D" . [?=E2=89=88]) + ("/=3D" . [?=E2=89=A0]) + ("_<" . [?=E2=89=A4]) + ("_>" . [?=E2=89=A5]) ("' " . "'") ("` " . "`") ("\" " . "\"") --=20 2.1.0 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 10:22:23 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 14:22:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33792 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpHGJ-0000Qf-7w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 10:22:23 -0400 Received: from mtaout24.012.net.il ([80.179.55.180]:41101) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpHGG-0000QP-Qz for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 10:22:22 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout24.012.net.il by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNT00F00WMFAZ00@mtaout24.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 17:13:28 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNT00AV4WUG0R50@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Mon, 04 May 2015 17:13:28 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 17:22:17 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Paul Eggert Message-id: <836188tobq.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 18:13:10 -0700 > Cc: Paul Eggert > > Although C-x 8 lets you insert arbitrary Unicode characters, it's > awkward to use this to insert commonly used symbols such as curved > quotes, the Euro symbol, etc. This patch adds simpler sequences for > ISO 8859-15 characters (which includes the Euro), plus characters that > are commonly found in English text and in basic math. For example, > assuming the Alt key works on your keyboard and iso-transl is loaded, > one can now type "A-[" instead of "A-RET LEFT SIN TAB RET" to get the > character "‘" (U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK). > * doc/emacs/mule.texi (Unibyte Mode), etc/NEWS: Latin-9 and a few > other printing characters now work too. > * lisp/international/iso-transl.el (iso-transl-char-map): > Also support ISO 8859-15 characters (e.g., "€"), plus the characters > "–—‘’“”†‡•′″←→↔−≈≠≤≥" which are commonly used in English text > or basic math. Shouldn't we prefer input methods instead? We already have a plethora of Latin-N-something input methods (including latin-9-prefix), so why not add more characters there, instead of using iso-transl? I think input methods generally get less in your way. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 11:21:15 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 15:21:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33871 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpIBG-0001uq-22 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 11:21:14 -0400 Received: from fely.am-1.org ([78.47.74.50]:42410) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpIBC-0001uV-9V; Mon, 04 May 2015 11:21:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=0U3QnPqKf46af4AdqfBXaeyDt1yUmufiGEdIaU3coe0=; b=ezhJPRJY+ly915Qn8VA/QYl9P/NhXvoCKoBdOMtQm1mPNRFLb0faFlhvaGt+hhRvsoJvMYQZNApeOwaxKKTwjWM/kR1OfIlPraQIRIP92QxYr7cU1pGDLoEN2bJ7GgvOOuliFS34bCpKHU1DGdVjmcZixm0QqjG1K3fAPlxxTiE=; Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpIB7-0004jI-Gr; Mon, 04 May 2015 15:21:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpIAz-0004gB-E3; Mon, 04 May 2015 22:20:58 +0700 From: Ivan Shmakov To: control@debbugs.gnu.org, 16082@debbugs.gnu.org, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <836188tobq.fsf@gnu.org> Mail-Followup-To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 15:20:56 +0000 In-Reply-To: <836188tobq.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 04 May 2015 17:22:17 +0300") Message-ID: <87k2womkrr.fsf@violet.siamics.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) severity 20499 wishlist merge 16082 20499 thanks >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: >>>>> From: Paul Eggert Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 18:13:10 -0700 >> Although C-x 8 lets you insert arbitrary Unicode characters, it's >> awkward to use this to insert commonly used symbols such as curved >> quotes, the Euro symbol, etc. This patch adds simpler sequences for >> ISO 8859-15 characters (which includes the Euro), plus characters >> that are commonly found in English text and in basic math. For >> example, assuming the Alt key works on your keyboard and iso-transl >> is loaded, one can now type "A-[" instead of "A-RET LEFT SIN TAB >> RET" to get the character "=E2=80=98" (U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MAR= K). First of all, isn=E2=80=99t this essentially the same suggestion as the one of bug#16082? (FWIW, I=E2=80=99ve requested the reports to be merged; feel free to unmerge if I=E2=80=99ve missed something.) [=E2=80=A6] > Shouldn't we prefer input methods instead? We already have a > plethora of Latin-N-something input methods (including > latin-9-prefix), so why not add more characters there, instead of > using iso-transl? > I think input methods generally get less in your way. I tend to agree with that, but is there currently an easy way to switch between /two/ input methods? For one thing, I currently use =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D input method for typing English /and/ russian-typewriter to type Russian. With the proper Unicode quotes being available via some other input method, how would I configure Emacs to switch between /that/ input method and russian-typewriter? The other side of the issue is that the dashes, arrows, mathematical symbols, and the likes of them are cross-lingual, and making them available via input methods will involve duplication of many of the individual quail-define-rules entries all around leim/quail/*.el. (If done the straightforward way; AIUI, anyway.) --=20 FSF associate member #7257 http://am-1.org/~ivan/ =E2=80=A6 3013 B6A0= 230E 334A From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 11:42:02 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 15:42:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33890 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpIVM-0003u8-Ng for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 11:42:01 -0400 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:42483) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpIVJ-0003tu-Mc for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 11:41:58 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNU00M000PUFY00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 18:41:50 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNU00MQL0XPAKB0@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Mon, 04 May 2015 18:41:49 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 18:41:52 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16082: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: <87k2womkrr.fsf@violet.siamics.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Ivan Shmakov Message-id: <831tiwtkn3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <836188tobq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k2womkrr.fsf@violet.siamics.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Ivan Shmakov > Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 15:20:56 +0000 > > > Shouldn't we prefer input methods instead? We already have a > > plethora of Latin-N-something input methods (including > > latin-9-prefix), so why not add more characters there, instead of > > using iso-transl? > > > I think input methods generally get less in your way. > > I tend to agree with that, but is there currently an easy way to > switch between /two/ input methods? I simply use "C-u C-\". Granted, if every 2nd character you type is U+2018, switching input methods is gonna hurt. But that's not wwhat happens normally, at least not to me, and you save those Alt-[ etc. for more useful tasks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 12:12:02 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 16:12:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33918 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpIyP-00065c-FM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:12:02 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:58712) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpIyN-00065O-Us for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:12:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9608EA6000B; Mon, 4 May 2015 09:11:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zGT33KGRjpPz; Mon, 4 May 2015 09:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 01DCAA60008; Mon, 4 May 2015 09:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55479A45.60508@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 09:11:49 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <836188tobq.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <836188tobq.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) On 05/04/2015 07:22 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Shouldn't we prefer input methods instead? Typically yes, but for common characters it's better to have a standard way to input them in any context. The exact set of such characters is of course debatable (and you could easily talk me out of the more-obscure characters proposed), but quotes, dashes, and the Euro are pretty basic to ordinary English text. Also, Emacs has no English input method, which means Emacs users currently have trouble writing good English text outside the ASCII character set. I suppose we could add such a method, but that would require more user training than the proposed approach. Anyway, Emacs is natively English and support for basic English text should be available everywhere. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 12:12:39 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 16:12:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33921 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpIz1-00066t-CM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:12:39 -0400 Received: from fely.am-1.org ([78.47.74.50]:42420) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpIyy-00066j-Ft for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:12:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=yEff8ghIhNLjh2yR24kzdlQTnb5pUxrH0dzX6DD5oxg=; b=TaQ4o2RiV1+xWf2HplKRW2UiV0LF6wOiOWD4ZtR/apCzX8jgMnX5/T2TB2xOTejPiYwOR0VAM0M1lfCZn8qml/3njWcmBhN35xo3L03U11ZK3nR467VNzawowXOE9qEWgg6jx2/YF9X0n5YNk5TjALa8T5HBSI0jmIoChgoXe1E=; Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpIyx-00059T-PJ for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 16:12:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpIyr-0004mu-1S for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 23:12:29 +0700 From: Ivan Shmakov To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: bug#16082: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <836188tobq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k2womkrr.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <831tiwtkn3.fsf@gnu.org> Mail-Followup-To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 16:12:28 +0000 In-Reply-To: <831tiwtkn3.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 04 May 2015 18:41:52 +0300") Message-ID: <87bni0midv.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) Pj4+Pj4gRWxpIFphcmV0c2tpaSA8ZWxpekBnbnUub3JnPiB3cml0ZXM6DQo+Pj4+PiBGcm9tOiBJ dmFuIFNobWFrb3YgIERhdGU6IE1vbiwgMDQgTWF5IDIwMTUgMTU6MjA6NTYgKzAwMDANCg0KW+KA pl0NCg0KID4+IEkgdGVuZCB0byBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHRoYXQsIGJ1dCBpcyB0aGVyZSBjdXJyZW50 bHkgYW4gZWFzeSB3YXkgdG8NCiA+PiBzd2l0Y2ggYmV0d2VlbiAvdHdvLyBpbnB1dCBtZXRob2Rz Pw0KDQogPiBJIHNpbXBseSB1c2UgIkMtdSBDLVwiLg0KDQoJR2l2ZW4gdGhhdCBJIGVkaXQgdGV4 dHMgd2hpY2ggbWF5IGJlIGRlZW1lZCBiaWxpbmd1YWwgKFJ1c3NpYW4NCglwcm9zZSBpbnRlcnNw ZXJzZWQgd2l0aCBzb3VyY2UgY29kZSBvciBjb21tYW5kIGxpbmUgZXhhbXBsZXMpDQoJbm90IGp1 c3Qgb2NjYXNpb25hbGx5LCAvYW5kLyBuZWVkIEMtcywgQy1yIGF0IHRoYXQsIOKAkyBubywNCglJ IGRvbuKAmXQgdGhpbmsgaXTigJlkIHdvcmsgYWxsIHRoYXQgd2VsbCBmb3IgbWUuDQoNCiA+IEdy YW50ZWQsIGlmIGV2ZXJ5IDJuZCBjaGFyYWN0ZXIgeW91IHR5cGUgaXMgVSsyMDE4LCBzd2l0Y2hp bmcgaW5wdXQNCiA+IG1ldGhvZHMgaXMgZ29ubmEgaHVydC4NCg0KCUl04oCZcyBub3QgdGhhdCBi YWQsIGJ1dCBzdGlsbDsgY29uc2lkZXIsIGUuIGcuOg0KDQrCq9Ci0Ysg0L/RgNC+0YDQvtC6wrss INCy0YHQutGA0LjRh9Cw0Lsg0Y8sIMKr0LLQtdGJ0LjQuSEg0J/RgtC40YbQsCDRgtGLINC40LvR jCDQtNGD0YUg0LfQu9C+0LLQtdGJ0LjQuSwNCtCt0YLQuNC8INCd0LXQsdC+0LwsINGH0YLQviDQ vdCw0LQg0L3QsNC80Lgg4oCUINCR0L7Qs9C+0Lwg0YHQutGA0YvRgtGL0Lwg0L3QsNCy0YHQtdCz 0LTQsCDigJQNCtCX0LDQutC70LjQvdCw0Y4sINGD0LzQvtC70Y/Rjywg0LzQvdC1INGB0LrQsNC3 0LDRgtGMLCDigJQg0LIg0L/RgNC10LTQtdC70LDRhSDQoNCw0Y8NCtCc0L3QtSDQvtGC0LrRgNC+ 0LXRgtGB0Y8g0LvRjCDRgdCy0Y/RgtCw0Y8sINGH0YLQviDRgdGA0LXQtNGMINCw0L3Qs9C10LvQ vtCyINCy0YHQtdCz0LTQsCwNCtCi0LAsINC60L7RgtC+0YDRg9GOINCb0LXQvdC+0YDQvtC5INCy INC90LXQsdC10YHQsNGFINC30L7QstGD0YIg0LLRgdC10LPQtNCwP8K7DQogICAg0JrQsNGA0LrQ vdGD0Lsg0JLQvtGA0L7QvTogwqvQndC40LrQvtCz0LTQsMK7Lg0KDQoJTmluZSBzdWNoIGNoYXJh Y3RlcnMgcGVyIDQzIHdvcmRzLg0KDQogPiBCdXQgdGhhdCdzIG5vdCB3aGF0IGhhcHBlbnMgbm9y bWFsbHksIGF0IGxlYXN0IG5vdCB0byBtZSwgYW5kIHlvdQ0KID4gc2F2ZSB0aG9zZSBBbHQtWyBl dGMuIGZvciBtb3JlIHVzZWZ1bCB0YXNrcy4NCg0KCU15IOKAmEFsdOKAmSBpcyDigJhNZXRh4oCZ IG1vc3Qgb2YgdGhlIHRpbWUsIHNvIGl04oCZcyByYXRoZXIgQy14IDggWywNCglDLXggOCBdLCBl dGMuIGZvciBtZSwgYW5kIHJlc2VydmluZyB0aGF0IGZvciB0eXBvZ3JhcGh5IGlzbuKAmXQNCgly ZWFsbHkgYSBiaWcgZGVhbC4NCg0KLS0gDQpGU0YgYXNzb2NpYXRlIG1lbWJlciAjNzI1NyAgaHR0 cDovL2FtLTEub3JnL35pdmFuLyAgICAgIOKApiAzMDEzIEI2QTAgMjMwRSAzMzRBDQo= From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 12:15:10 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 16:15:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33926 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJ1S-0006BN-6e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:15:10 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:50961 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJ1Q-0006BC-J3 for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:15:09 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJ1P-0005xS-8l; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:15:07 -0400 Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 12:15:07 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Paul Eggert In-reply-to: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> (message from Paul Eggert on Sun, 3 May 2015 18:13:10 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] How about also adding s, t, S, T with cedilla, dotless i, and I with dot. Also c and C with a hacek. C-x 8 C-h is a good way of seeing what all the options are. It may be worth documenting. It would be nice to have C-u C-x = show the specific C-x 8 sequence for a character, if there is one. By the way, it would be good to have a file that consists of all of unicode in numeric order. That would provide an easy way to pick some unicode character (whose code you don't remember) and copying it into some text. ¬ -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 12:31:42 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 16:31:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33939 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJHQ-0006b6-WF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:31:41 -0400 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:45889) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJHO-0006an-1f for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:31:39 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNU00M002XLK800@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 19:31:31 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNU00MP438IGL80@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Mon, 04 May 2015 19:31:31 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 19:31:34 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: bug#16082: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: <87bni0midv.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Ivan Shmakov Message-id: <83wq0os3rt.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <836188tobq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k2womkrr.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <831tiwtkn3.fsf@gnu.org> <87bni0midv.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Ivan Shmakov > Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 16:12:28 +0000 > > >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > >>>>> From: Ivan Shmakov Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 15:20:56 +0000 > > […] > > >> I tend to agree with that, but is there currently an easy way to > >> switch between /two/ input methods? > > > I simply use "C-u C-\". > > Given that I edit texts which may be deemed bilingual (Russian > prose interspersed with source code or command line examples) > not just occasionally, /and/ need C-s, C-r at that, – no, > I don’t think it’d work all that well for me. Don't you have a dual-language keyboard on your system that can switch languages without Emacs being involved? Input methods are for characters not directly supported by your keyboard; most systems have at least 2, sometimes 3 different languages switchable by a hot key. IOW, I won't expect you to need an input method to type Cyrillic characters. > > Granted, if every 2nd character you type is U+2018, switching input > > methods is gonna hurt. > > It’s not that bad, but still; consider, e. g.: > > «Ты пророк», вскричал я, «вещий! Птица ты иль дух зловещий, > Этим Небом, что над нами — Богом скрытым навсегда — > Заклинаю, умоляя, мне сказать, — в пределах Рая > Мне откроется ль святая, что средь ангелов всегда, > Та, которую Ленорой в небесах зовут всегда?» > Каркнул Ворон: «Никогда». > > Nine such characters per 43 words. Those aren't quotes Paul was talking about. Those are Cyrillic-style quotes frequently used in Cyrillic languages, and I'd expect them to be directly available from your keyboard. Paul's use case is with the original of this poem. > > But that's not what happens normally, at least not to me, and you > > save those Alt-[ etc. for more useful tasks. > > My ‘Alt’ is ‘Meta’ most of the time, so it’s rather C-x 8 [, > C-x 8 ], etc. for me, and reserving that for typography isn’t > really a big deal. That's exactly the issue: most keyboards will have Alt taken already, and typing "C-x 8 [" is a PITA, IMO. By contrast, 'C-\ "' is easy. But if there are people who'd like to go iso-transl way, who am I to object? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 12:34:21 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 16:34:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33943 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJK0-0006fT-BX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:34:21 -0400 Received: from mtaout27.012.net.il ([80.179.55.183]:42218) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJJx-0006fC-SL for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:34:18 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout27.012.net.il by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNU0080032LEB00@mtaout27.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 19:29:20 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNU00NAR34WJB90@mtaout27.012.net.il>; Mon, 04 May 2015 19:29:20 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 19:34:14 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: rms@gnu.org Message-id: <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 12:15:07 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org > > By the way, it would be good to have a file that consists of all of > unicode in numeric order. Would admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt do? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 12:48:53 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 16:48:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33948 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJY3-00071J-Gn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:48:52 -0400 Received: from fely.am-1.org ([78.47.74.50]:42424) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJY0-000718-Ko for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 12:48:50 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=600sgitbVKTJZ7RqMBXUwtbtOkQXedMS7ZE22h0p61g=; b=W7MYZk2rZ8YvdHT5CyEIh+CDRR11d1gbM27D1Q7HSqcz5Ip8fzlbmxbceS3BNJs9eCcHcr/M8Wub3XpmMflkYHfLqJW81g7Nz0ea3K9A1rbHFBGEvd1DJvh9nbHntJcb3TIuFnfMjLuf3YwRXKOROd7dJJB8BvIFNO490XnupsM=; Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJXz-0005SR-2m for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 16:48:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJXs-0004sa-77 for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 23:48:40 +0700 From: Ivan Shmakov To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 16:48:39 +0000 In-Reply-To: <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 04 May 2015 19:34:14 +0300") Message-ID: <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) Pj4+Pj4gRWxpIFphcmV0c2tpaSA8ZWxpekBnbnUub3JnPiB3cml0ZXM6DQo+Pj4+PiBEYXRlOiBN b24sIDA0IE1heSAyMDE1IDEyOjE1OjA3IC0wNDAwICBGcm9tOiBSaWNoYXJkIFN0YWxsbWFuDQoN CiA+PiBCeSB0aGUgd2F5LCBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBnb29kIHRvIGhhdmUgYSBmaWxlIHRoYXQgY29u c2lzdHMgb2YgYWxsIG9mDQogPj4gdW5pY29kZSBpbiBudW1lcmljIG9yZGVyLiAgVGhhdCB3b3Vs ZCBwcm92aWRlIGFuIGVhc3kgd2F5IHRvIHBpY2sNCiA+PiBzb21lIHVuaWNvZGUgY2hhcmFjdGVy ICh3aG9zZSBjb2RlIHlvdSBkb24ndCByZW1lbWJlcikgYW5kIGNvcHlpbmcNCiA+PiBpdCBpbnRv IHNvbWUgdGV4dC4NCg0KID4gV291bGQgYWRtaW4vdW5pZGF0YS9Vbmljb2RlRGF0YS50eHQgZG8/ DQoNCglJIGd1ZXNzIGdpdmVuIHRoZSDigJxjb3B5aW5n4oCdIHBhcnQsIHRoZSByZXF1ZXN0IGlz IG1vcmUgYWxvbmcgdGhlDQoJbGluZXMgb2YsIHNheToNCg0KKGxldCAoKGkgI3gxMDApKQ0KICAo d2hpbGUgKDwgaSAjeDE4MCkNCiAgICAod2hlbiAoemVyb3AgKG1vZCBpICN4MjApKQ0KICAgICAg KHVubGVzcyAoZXEgP1xuIChwcmVjZWRpbmctY2hhcikpDQogICAgICAgIChpbnNlcnQgP1xuKSkN CiAgICAgIChpbnNlcnQgKGZvcm1hdCAiJTA2eCIgaSkgP1xzKSkNCiAgICAoaW5zZXJ0ID9ccyBp KQ0KICAgIChzZXRxIGkgKCsgMSBpKSkpKQ0KMDAwMTAwICDEgCDEgSDEgiDEgyDEhCDEhSDEhiDE hyDEiCDEiSDEiiDEiyDEjCDEjSDEjiDEjyDEkCDEkSDEkiDEkyDElCDElSDEliDElyDEmCDEmSDE miDEmyDEnCDEnSDEniDEnw0KMDAwMTIwICDEoCDEoSDEoiDEoyDEpCDEpSDEpiDEpyDEqCDEqSDE qiDEqyDErCDErSDEriDEryDEsCDEsSDEsiDEsyDEtCDEtSDEtiDEtyDEuCDEuSDEuiDEuyDEvCDE vSDEviDEvw0KMDAwMTQwICDFgCDFgSDFgiDFgyDFhCDFhSDFhiDFhyDFiCDFiSDFiiDFiyDFjCDF jSDFjiDFjyDFkCDFkSDFkiDFkyDFlCDFlSDFliDFlyDFmCDFmSDFmiDFmyDFnCDFnSDFniDFnw0K MDAwMTYwICDFoCDFoSDFoiDFoyDFpCDFpSDFpiDFpyDFqCDFqSDFqiDFqyDFrCDFrSDFriDFryDF sCDFsSDFsiDFsyDFtCDFtSDFtiDFtyDFuCDFuSDFuiDFuyDFvCDFvSDFviDFvw0KDQoJSSBkb3Vi dCB3ZSByZWFsbHkgbmVlZCBhIGZpbGUgZm9yIHRoYXQsIHRob3VnaDsgcmF0aGVyLCBzb21lDQoJ a2luZCBvZiBhIOKAnFVuaWNvZGUgYnJvd3NlcuKAnSBmYWNpbGl0eS4gIChOb3QgZW50aXJlbHkg dW5saWtlDQoJbGlzdC1jb2xvcnMtZGlzcGxheSwgYnV0IHdpdGggYSBkeW5hbWljIGxpc3QuKQ0K DQotLSANCkZTRiBhc3NvY2lhdGUgbWVtYmVyICM3MjU3IGh0dHA6Ly9hbS0xLm9yZy9+aXZhbi8g 4oCmIDMwMTMgQjZBMCAyMzBFIDMzNEENCg== From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 13:03:42 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 17:03:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33952 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJmP-0007Py-GA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 13:03:41 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:57633) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpJmN-0007Pd-CE for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 13:03:40 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNU006004MASE00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 20:03:33 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNU006S74PWLCA0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Mon, 04 May 2015 20:03:32 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 20:03:36 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Ivan Shmakov Message-id: <83pp6gs2af.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Ivan Shmakov > Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 16:48:39 +0000 > > >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > >>>>> Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 12:15:07 -0400 From: Richard Stallman > > >> By the way, it would be good to have a file that consists of all of > >> unicode in numeric order. That would provide an easy way to pick > >> some unicode character (whose code you don't remember) and copying > >> it into some text. > > > Would admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt do? > > I guess given the “copying” part, the request is more along the We distribute that file with Emacs, so "copying" is irrelevant, I think. > (let ((i #x100)) > (while (< i #x180) > (when (zerop (mod i #x20)) > (unless (eq ?\n (preceding-char)) > (insert ?\n)) > (insert (format "%06x" i) ?\s)) > (insert ?\s i) > (setq i (+ 1 i)))) > 000100 Ā ā Ă ă Ą ą Ć ć Ĉ ĉ Ċ ċ Č č Ď ď Đ đ Ē ē Ĕ ĕ Ė ė Ę ę Ě ě Ĝ ĝ Ğ ğ > 000120 Ġ ġ Ģ ģ Ĥ ĥ Ħ ħ Ĩ ĩ Ī ī Ĭ ĭ Į į İ ı IJ ij Ĵ ĵ Ķ ķ ĸ Ĺ ĺ Ļ ļ Ľ ľ Ŀ > 000140 ŀ Ł ł Ń ń Ņ ņ Ň ň ʼn Ŋ ŋ Ō ō Ŏ ŏ Ő ő Œ œ Ŕ ŕ Ŗ ŗ Ř ř Ś ś Ŝ ŝ Ş ş > 000160 Š š Ţ ţ Ť ť Ŧ ŧ Ũ ũ Ū ū Ŭ ŭ Ů ů Ű ű Ų ų Ŵ ŵ Ŷ ŷ Ÿ Ź ź Ż ż Ž ž ſ Did you try to make this longer than 4 lines in a well-covered part of the BMP? Most of Unicode codepoints on most end-user machines will display as glyphless boxes, and that's _after_ Emacs searches like hell after each character system-wide. IOW, such a feature would be an annoyance, IMO. By contrast UnicodeData.txt is a pure-ASCII file, and includes everything except the glyphs themselves. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 13:40:21 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 17:40:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33982 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpKLs-0001NU-Op for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 13:40:21 -0400 Received: from fely.am-1.org ([78.47.74.50]:42433) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpKLp-0001NG-9q for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 13:40:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=3KuFGyOIl6Q6h2hVI+dXIomv9/Fg0dPsnDWG09ClFCg=; b=WKnEmSVglAHz1y3NBcyO5QrOR3HJYgyMuzver9Re89k2cW4LvsN5SaqZYWeP6+uw2QlP0X0UhJjA51qzLzgy3VUjd3JA/bZEocrynFdboPKVHlvCpaghVpvLtSrKXCTUn23tgpgp7DZ56pxggz0kL6ItkxbowQGFaSLD3GtufMQ=; Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpKLm-0005sB-RB for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 17:40:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpKLf-0004zz-De for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 00:40:07 +0700 From: Ivan Shmakov To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83pp6gs2af.fsf@gnu.org> Mail-Followup-To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 17:40:06 +0000 In-Reply-To: <83pp6gs2af.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 04 May 2015 20:03:36 +0300") Message-ID: <87pp6gkzrd.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: >>>>> From: Ivan Shmakov Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 16:48:39 +0000 >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: >>>>> Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 12:15:07 -0400 From: Richard Stallman >>>> By the way, it would be good to have a file that consists of all >>>> of unicode in numeric order. That would provide an easy way to >>>> pick some unicode character (whose code you don't remember) and >>>> copying it into some text. >>> Would admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt do? >> I guess given the =E2=80=9Ccopying=E2=80=9D part, the request is more a= long the >> lines of, say: > We distribute that file with Emacs, so "copying" is irrelevant, > I think. You cannot /copy/ a random Unicode character from UnicodeData.txt =E2=80=93 precisely because there=E2=80=99re /no/ non-ASCII characters in that file in the first place. Arguably, you cannot pick one, either, if you only know how it /looks/ =E2=80=93 not how it=E2=80=99s named. (As in: named in English.) Otherwise, I tend to keep a copy of [1] at hand, sure. [1] http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/NamesList.txt [=E2=80=A6] > Did you try to make this longer than 4 lines in a well-covered part > of the BMP? Most of Unicode codepoints on most end-user machines > will display as glyphless boxes, and that's _after_ Emacs searches > like hell after each character system-wide. IOW, such a feature > would be an annoyance, IMO. On a tty frame, it surely wouldn=E2=80=99t. But I=E2=80=99ve got your poi= nt. One more reason to use a dynamic list, BTW. Even more so if there=E2=80=99s a way to check whether the glyph is available (or, rather, was available when Emacs last checked) from Lisp. [=E2=80=A6] --=20 FSF associate member #7257 http://am-1.org/~ivan/ =E2=80=A6 3013 B6A0= 230E 334A From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 14:12:44 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 18:12:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34003 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpKrE-0002AX-4s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 14:12:44 -0400 Received: from fely.am-1.org ([78.47.74.50]:42436) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpKrB-0002AN-RV for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 14:12:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=0LMnxlWV95Dy6Gqi+lB2ksHQn1fxA7pUPD/HsiIVjrI=; b=VOgL/8l6Tl5w5FwHtzQjbqOhPSr9EPqCdQYjXAjyeS/6r3KyvUnAf+Ep7X9hn7NFaU6ynaPFPfDoDdXHPZ6UrilLD0kGHqNmCyOHWEZFKVc5BS3VAgRLBF3lMP/wx3oaX/wgQBgUbHh6eORAt4JnsAhmfPSArf30Zx0MuzqWTRo=; Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpKr9-00067m-Mb for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 18:12:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpKqy-00053z-El for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 01:12:28 +0700 From: Ivan Shmakov To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <836188tobq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k2womkrr.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <831tiwtkn3.fsf@gnu.org> <87bni0midv.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> <83wq0os3rt.fsf@gnu.org> Mail-Followup-To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 18:12:27 +0000 In-Reply-To: <83wq0os3rt.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 04 May 2015 19:31:34 +0300") Message-ID: <87lhh4ky9g.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) Pj4+Pj4gRWxpIFphcmV0c2tpaSA8ZWxpekBnbnUub3JnPiB3cml0ZXM6DQo+Pj4+PiBGcm9tOiBJ dmFuIFNobWFrb3YgIERhdGU6IE1vbiwgMDQgTWF5IDIwMTUgMTY6MTI6MjggKzAwMDANCj4+Pj4+ IEVsaSBaYXJldHNraWkgPGVsaXpAZ251Lm9yZz4gd3JpdGVzOg0KPj4+Pj4gRnJvbTogSXZhbiBT 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4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpL7d-0002ZL-7s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 14:29:41 -0400 Received: from mtaout28.012.net.il ([80.179.55.184]:45634) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpL7a-0002Z6-FG for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 14:29:39 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout28.012.net.il by mtaout28.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNU001008LQP700@mtaout28.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 21:28:29 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout28.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNU00O9I8NGE320@mtaout28.012.net.il>; Mon, 04 May 2015 21:28:29 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 21:29:35 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: <87lhh4ky9g.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Ivan Shmakov Message-id: <83mw1kryb4.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <836188tobq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k2womkrr.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <831tiwtkn3.fsf@gnu.org> <87bni0midv.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> <83wq0os3rt.fsf@gnu.org> <87lhh4ky9g.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Ivan Shmakov > Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 18:12:27 +0000 > > How do I define an input method so that ‘"’ is mapped to either > “ or ” depending on the context? See texinfo.el for some ideas. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 14:40:36 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 18:40:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34012 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpLIC-0002qH-21 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 14:40:36 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:37783) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpLI9-0002q2-9G for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 14:40:34 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F05A6000F; Mon, 4 May 2015 11:40:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pu9qiM0+Ibus; Mon, 4 May 2015 11:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1EEB3A6000C; Mon, 4 May 2015 11:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 11:40:25 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) On 05/04/2015 09:15 AM, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > How about also adding s, t, S, T with cedilla, dotless i, and I with dot. > Also c and C with a hacek. Sure, I can look into that. Also the slashed L and l, perhaps, so that we can spell names like Łukasiewicz. If we want to be more ambitious, we could support the Latin letters in any ISO 8859 variant, which would include the following additions (this includes all the letters you mentioned): ă Ă ą Ą ā Ā ḃ Ḃ ć Ć ĉ Ĉ č Č ċ Ċ ď Ď ḋ Ḋ đ Đ ě Ě ė Ė ę Ę ē Ē ḟ Ḟ ğ Ğ ĝ Ĝ ġ Ġ ģ Ģ ĥ Ĥ ħ Ħ ĩ Ĩ į Į ī Ī ı İ ĵ Ĵ ķ Ķ ĺ Ĺ ľ Ľ ł Ł ļ Ļ ṁ Ṁ ń Ń ň Ň ņ Ņ ŋ Ŋ ő Ő ō Ō ṗ Ṗ ĸ ŕ Ŕ ř Ř ŗ Ŗ ś Ś ŝ Ŝ ṡ Ṡ ş Ş ť Ť ṫ Ṫ ŧ Ŧ ţ Ţ ŭ Ŭ ů Ů ű Ű ũ Ũ ų Ų ū Ū ẃ Ẃ ẁ Ẁ ŵ Ŵ ẅ Ẅ ỳ Ỳ ŷ Ŷ ź Ź ż Ż It may be difficult to fit all these into the existing C-x 8 space, though. > C-x 8 C-h is a good way of seeing what all the options are. > It may be worth documenting. It is documented in the manual now. > It would be nice to have C-u C-x = show the specific C-x 8 sequence > for a character, if there is one. Yes, that'd be nice to add. > it would be good to have a file that consists of all of > unicode in numeric order. That would provide an easy way to pick some > unicode character (whose code you don't remember) and copying it into > some text. Although Eli mentioned that we already have such a file, it isn't installed. Perhaps we could install it in the etc directory (next to AUTHORS, CONTRIBUTE, etc.) and then have 'C-h u' visit it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 18:00:14 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 22:00:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34089 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpOPN-0007oC-D9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 18:00:14 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:19121) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpOPJ-0007nj-Ue for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 18:00:11 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiQFAGvvdVRFpYts/2dsb2JhbAA3gVODDp5hgQiBdQEBBAEjMygLCxoCGA4CAhQYDYg3mimHaIEviwEFEAgCAgIDDgkBAgECgz4DHTWCCIEWBKNjhFg X-IPAS-Result: AiQFAGvvdVRFpYts/2dsb2JhbAA3gVODDp5hgQiBdQEBBAEjMygLCxoCGA4CAhQYDYg3mimHaIEviwEFEAgCAgIDDgkBAgECgz4DHTWCCIEWBKNjhFg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,557,1422939600"; d="scan'208";a="118242490" Received: from 69-165-139-108.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.165.139.108]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 04 May 2015 18:00:03 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 99B1D2115; Mon, 4 May 2015 18:00:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. Message-ID: References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83pp6gs2af.fsf@gnu.org> <87pp6gkzrd.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 18:00:03 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87pp6gkzrd.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> (Ivan Shmakov's message of "Mon, 04 May 2015 17:40:06 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > Arguably, you cannot pick one, either, if you only know how it > /looks/ =E2=80=93 not how it=E2=80=99s named. (As in: named in English.) BTW, the completion in C-x 8 RET will not only show you the character name but will also (try to) display the actual character as an annotation in the *Completions* buffer. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 18:00:43 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2015 22:00:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34092 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpOPq-0007ph-Jm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 18:00:43 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:33066) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpOPo-0007pT-PP for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2015 18:00:41 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiQFAGvvdVRFpYts/2dsb2JhbAA3gVODDp5hgQiBdQEBBAEjMygLCxoCGA4CAhQYDYg3mimHaIEvikYmBgINBRAIAgICAw4MA4M+Ax01ggiBFgSjY4RY X-IPAS-Result: AiQFAGvvdVRFpYts/2dsb2JhbAA3gVODDp5hgQiBdQEBBAEjMygLCxoCGA4CAhQYDYg3mimHaIEvikYmBgINBRAIAgICAw4MA4M+Ax01ggiBFgSjY4RY X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,557,1422939600"; d="scan'208";a="118242552" Received: from 69-165-139-108.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.165.139.108]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 04 May 2015 18:00:35 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 2EAD22115; Mon, 4 May 2015 18:00:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#16082: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. Message-ID: References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <836188tobq.fsf@gnu.org> <87k2womkrr.fsf@violet.siamics.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 18:00:35 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87k2womkrr.fsf@violet.siamics.net> (Ivan Shmakov's message of "Mon, 04 May 2015 15:20:56 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > First of all, isn=E2=80=99t this essentially the same suggestion as the > one of bug#16082? (FWIW, I=E2=80=99ve requested the reports to be > merged; feel free to unmerge if I=E2=80=99ve missed something.) Indeed. I'm not opposed to adding such things. I do wish C-x 8 was changed to make use of the quail code somehow. Also, I think it would be good to construct this table semi-automatically, along the lines of what I've done for latin-ltx.el. > I tend to agree with that, but is there currently an easy way to > switch between /two/ input methods? For one thing, I currently > use =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D input method for typing English /and/ > russian-typewriter to type Russian. Indeed. IIUC it would be trivial to let C-\ cycle between a user-selected set of default input methods. Patch welcome. I also wish it were possible to activate several input methods at the same time. I don't (know how to) use state-based methods, but for input methods like French or TeX, it isn't that hard to come up with ways to create new input methods by combining or shifting (e.g. add a prefix key, or drop a prefix) existing ones. > The other side of the issue is that the dashes, arrows, > mathematical symbols, and the likes of them are cross-lingual, > and making them available via input methods will involve > duplication of many of the individual quail-define-rules entries > all around leim/quail/*.el. (If done the straightforward way; > AIUI, anyway.) Indeed. Which is why I think it makes sense to try and develop ways to create "partial input methods" and then combine them. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 02:03:32 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2015 06:03:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34244 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpVx5-0004aY-4S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 02:03:31 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:35912) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpVx1-0004aD-34 for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 02:03:28 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AEDEA6000D; Mon, 4 May 2015 23:03:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4rCgOG6lqO5t; Mon, 4 May 2015 23:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7969539E8016; Mon, 4 May 2015 23:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 04 May 2015 23:03:19 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090904020002020306060104" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090904020002020306060104 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> How about also adding s, t, S, T with cedilla, dotless i, and I with dot. >> Also c and C with a hacek. > > Sure, I can look into that. Also the slashed L and l, perhaps, so that we can > spell names like Łukasiewicz. Attached is a revised patch that adds support for the abovementioned characters, plus other Latin characters that might be encountered by people mentioning foreign names. It makes room by rejiggering three of the less-commonly used entries in the C-x 8 table. --------------090904020002020306060104 Content-Type: text/x-patch; name="0001-C-x-8-shorthands-for-curved-quotes-Euro-etc.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-C-x-8-shorthands-for-curved-quotes-Euro-etc.patch" >From aafde36c45bd0341b07707409873fb93cbbb33f1 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Paul Eggert Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 22:41:20 -0700 Subject: [PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Although C-x 8 lets you insert arbitrary Unicode characters, it's awkward to use this to insert commonly used symbols such as curved quotes, the Euro symbol, etc. This patch adds simpler sequences for many Latin characters (e.g., the Euro), plus characters that are commonly found in English text and in basic math. For example, assuming the Alt key works on your keyboard and iso-transl is loaded, one can now type "A-[" instead of "A-RET LEFT SIN TAB RET" to get the character "‘" (U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK). (Bug#20499) * doc/emacs/mule.texi (Unibyte Mode): Many more Latin and a few other printing characters now work too. * etc/NEWS: Document this. * lisp/international/iso-transl.el (iso-transl-char-map): Withdraw "C-x 8 ." (· U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT), "C-x 8 =" (¯ U+00AF SPACING MACRON), and "C-x 8 u" (µ U+00B5 MICRO SIGN) as they are now used for compositions. The longer forms still work. Also support the following characters, which are used in either current English or Latin-alphabet or basic math text: ĀāĂ㥹ĆćĈĉĊċČčĎďĐđĒēĔĕĖėĘęĚěĜĝĞğĠġĢģĤĥĦħĨĩĪīĬĭĮįİıĴĵĶķĸĹĺĻļĽľĿŀŁł ŃńŅņŇňŊŋŌōŎŏŐőŒœŔŕŖŗŘřŚśŜŝŞşŠšŢţŤťŦŧŨũŪūŬŭŮůŰűŲųŴŵŶŷŸŹźŻżŽžſȘșȚț ‐‑‒–—―‘’“”†‡•′″€№←→↔−≈≠≤≥ --- doc/emacs/mule.texi | 4 +- etc/NEWS | 11 +++ lisp/international/iso-transl.el | 168 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-- 3 files changed, 174 insertions(+), 9 deletions(-) diff --git a/doc/emacs/mule.texi b/doc/emacs/mule.texi index de381df..b7632a9 100644 --- a/doc/emacs/mule.texi +++ b/doc/emacs/mule.texi @@ -1660,8 +1660,8 @@ characters present directly on the keyboard or using @key{Compose} or @cindex compose character @cindex dead character @item -For Latin-1 only, you can use the key @kbd{C-x 8} as a ``compose -character'' prefix for entry of non-@acronym{ASCII} Latin-1 printing +You can use the key @kbd{C-x 8} as a ``compose character'' prefix for +entry of common non-@acronym{ASCII} Latin and a few other printing characters. @kbd{C-x 8} is good for insertion (in the minibuffer as well as other buffers), for searching, and in any other context where a key sequence is allowed. diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS index 715295b..54affcb 100644 --- a/etc/NEWS +++ b/etc/NEWS @@ -213,6 +213,17 @@ successive char insertions. ** Unicode names entered via C-x 8 RET now use substring completion by default. +** C-x 8 has shorthands for more Latin and a few other common chars. +For example, C-x 8 . I is now short for İ U+0130 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER +I WITH DOT ABOVE. As before, you can type C-x 8 C-h to list all +shorthands. To make room for the new shorthands, three aliases have +been withdrawn, as follows: + + withdrawn still works character + C-x 8 . C-x 8 . SPC · U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT + C-x 8 = C-x 8 = SPC ¯ U+00AF SPACING MACRON + C-x 8 u C-x 8 m µ U+00B5 MICRO SIGN + ** New minor mode global-eldoc-mode is enabled by default. ** Emacs now supports "bracketed paste mode" when running on a terminal diff --git a/lisp/international/iso-transl.el b/lisp/international/iso-transl.el index 73bcae0..1dff1c1 100644 --- a/lisp/international/iso-transl.el +++ b/lisp/international/iso-transl.el @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input definitions for ISO 8859-1 -*- coding: utf-8 -*- +;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input for ISO characters -*- coding: utf-8 -*- ;; Copyright (C) 1987, 1993-1999, 2001-2015 Free Software Foundation, ;; Inc. @@ -36,6 +36,10 @@ ;; to make all of the Alt keys autoload, and it is not clear ;; that the dead accent keys SHOULD autoload this package. +;; This package supports all characters defined by ISO 8859-1, +;; along with many other Latin characters and a few other characters +;; commonly used in English and basic math. + ;;; Code: ;;; Provide some binding for startup: @@ -112,8 +116,7 @@ (",c" . [?ç]) ("*-" . [?­]) ("-" . [?­]) - ("*." . [?·]) - ("." . [?·]) + (". " . [?·]) ("//" . [?÷]) ("/A" . [?Å]) ("/E" . [?Æ]) @@ -126,8 +129,7 @@ ("3/4" . [?¾]) ("*<" . [?«]) ("<" . [?«]) - ("*=" . [?¯]) - ("=" . [?¯]) + ("= " . [?¯]) ("*>" . [?»]) (">" . [?»]) ("*?" . [?¿]) @@ -173,8 +175,6 @@ ("c" . [?¢]) ("*o" . [?°]) ("o" . [?°]) - ("*u" . [?µ]) - ("u" . [?µ]) ("*m" . [?µ]) ("m" . [?µ]) ("*x" . [?×]) @@ -192,6 +192,160 @@ ("~o" . [?õ]) ("~t" . [?þ]) ("~~" . [?¬]) + ("=A" . [?Ā]) + ("=a" . [?ā]) + ("uA" . [?Ă]) + ("ua" . [?ă]) + ("gA" . [?Ą]) + ("ga" . [?ą]) + ("'C" . [?Ć]) + ("'c" . [?ć]) + ("^C" . [?Ĉ]) + ("^c" . [?ĉ]) + (".C" . [?Ċ]) + (".c" . [?ċ]) + ("vC" . [?Č]) + ("vc" . [?č]) + ("vD" . [?Ď]) + ("vd" . [?ď]) + ("=D" . [?Đ]) + ("=d" . [?đ]) + ("=E" . [?Ē]) + ("=e" . [?ē]) + ("uE" . [?Ĕ]) + ("ue" . [?ĕ]) + (".E" . [?Ė]) + (".e" . [?ė]) + ("gE" . [?Ę]) + ("ge" . [?ę]) + ("vE" . [?Ě]) + ("ve" . [?ě]) + ("^G" . [?Ĝ]) + ("^g" . [?ĝ]) + ("uG" . [?Ğ]) + ("ug" . [?ğ]) + (".G" . [?Ġ]) + (".g" . [?ġ]) + (",G" . [?Ģ]) + (",g" . [?ģ]) + ("^H" . [?Ĥ]) + ("^h" . [?ĥ]) + ("=H" . [?Ħ]) + ("=h" . [?ħ]) + ("~I" . [?Ĩ]) + ("~i" . [?ĩ]) + ("=I" . [?Ī]) + ("=i" . [?ī]) + ("uI" . [?Ĭ]) + ("ui" . [?ĭ]) + ("gI" . [?Į]) + ("gi" . [?į]) + (".I" . [?İ]) + (".i" . [?ı]) + ("^J" . [?Ĵ]) + ("^j" . [?ĵ]) + (",K" . [?Ķ]) + (",k" . [?ķ]) + ("qk" . [?ĸ]) + ("'L" . [?Ĺ]) + ("'l" . [?ĺ]) + (",L" . [?Ļ]) + (",l" . [?ļ]) + ("vL" . [?Ľ]) + ("vl" . [?ľ]) + (".L" . [?Ŀ]) + (".l" . [?ŀ]) + ("=L" . [?Ł]) + ("=l" . [?ł]) + ("'N" . [?Ń]) + ("'n" . [?ń]) + (",N" . [?Ņ]) + (",n" . [?ņ]) + ("vN" . [?Ň]) + ("vn" . [?ň]) + ("Ng" . [?Ŋ]) + ("ng" . [?ŋ]) + ("=O" . [?Ō]) + ("=o" . [?ō]) + ("uO" . [?Ŏ]) + ("uo" . [?ŏ]) + ("2O" . [?Ő]) + ("2o" . [?ő]) + ("OE" . [?Œ]) + ("Oe" . [?œ]) + ("'R" . [?Ŕ]) + ("'r" . [?ŕ]) + (",R" . [?Ŗ]) + (",r" . [?ŗ]) + ("vR" . [?Ř]) + ("vr" . [?ř]) + ("'S" . [?Ś]) + ("'s" . [?ś]) + ("^S" . [?Ŝ]) + ("^s" . [?ŝ]) + (",S" . [?Ş]) + (",s" . [?ş]) + ("vS" . [?Š]) + ("vs" . [?š]) + (",T" . [?Ţ]) + (",t" . [?ţ]) + ("vT" . [?Ť]) + ("vt" . [?ť]) + ("=T" . [?Ŧ]) + ("=t" . [?ŧ]) + ("~U" . [?Ũ]) + ("~u" . [?ũ]) + ("=U" . [?Ū]) + ("=u" . [?ū]) + ("uU" . [?Ŭ]) + ("uu" . [?ŭ]) + ("/U" . [?Ů]) + ("/u" . [?ů]) + ("2U" . [?Ű]) + ("2u" . [?ű]) + ("gU" . [?Ų]) + ("gu" . [?ų]) + ("^W" . [?Ŵ]) + ("^w" . [?ŵ]) + ("^Y" . [?Ŷ]) + ("^y" . [?ŷ]) + ("\"Y" . [?Ÿ]) + ("'Z" . [?Ź]) + ("'z" . [?ź]) + (".Z" . [?Ż]) + (".z" . [?ż]) + ("vZ" . [?Ž]) + ("vz" . [?ž]) + ("ls" . [?ſ]) + (";S" . [?Ș]) + (";s" . [?ș]) + (";T" . [?Ț]) + (";t" . [?ț]) + ("_h" . [?‐]) + ("_H" . [?‑]) + ("_f" . [?‒]) + ("_n" . [?–]) + ("_m" . [?—]) + ("_q" . [?―]) + ("[" . [?‘]) + ("]" . [?’]) + ("{" . [?“]) + ("}" . [?”]) + ("1+" . [?†]) + ("2+" . [?‡]) + ("**" . [?•]) + ("*'" . [?′]) + ("*\"" . [?″]) + ("*E" . [?€]) + ("No" . [?№]) + ("a<" . [?←]) + ("a>" . [?→]) + ("a=" . [?↔]) + ("_-" . [?−]) + ("~=" . [?≈]) + ("/=" . [?≠]) + ("_<" . [?≤]) + ("_>" . [?≥]) ("' " . "'") ("` " . "`") ("\" " . "\"") -- 2.1.0 --------------090904020002020306060104-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 10:39:07 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2015 14:39:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35456 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ype03-0003Cq-8I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 10:39:07 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:41631 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ype01-0003Cj-RA for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 10:39:06 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypdzp-000860-S4; Tue, 05 May 2015 10:38:53 -0400 Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:38:53 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Ivan Shmakov In-reply-to: <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> (message from Ivan Shmakov on Mon, 04 May 2015 16:48:39 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Would admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt do? It doesn't do the job, becuase it doesn't contain the characters themselves. > 000100 Ā ā Ă ă Ą ą Ć ć Ĉ ĉ Ċ ċ Č č Ď ď Đ đ Ē ē Ĕ ĕ Ė ė Ę ę Ě ě Ĝ ĝ Ğ ğ That's what I have in mind. Perhaps we should have a command that generates it. However, in addition to these lines of characters, it should have other lines with the names of the scripts and the languages they belong to, so you can search for those. If you type RET on a character, it should visit admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt and move to the corresponding line. Likewise, admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt could have a special major mode, so that typing RET on the line describing some character switches to the all-of-unicode buffer and goes to the right character in it. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 10:49:46 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2015 14:49:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35460 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpeAL-0003Sa-QQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 10:49:46 -0400 Received: from mail-qk0-f174.google.com ([209.85.220.174]:36693) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpeAJ-0003SK-Ok for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 10:49:44 -0400 Received: by qku63 with SMTP id 63so107089823qku.3 for <20499@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 05 May 2015 07:49:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lifelogs.com; s=google; h=from:to:cc:subject:organization:references:mail-copies-to :gmane-reply-to-list:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :mime-version:content-type; bh=hDUnvczj5ZKeKMjdnDBu22zUxdKrz9LP+2dXdiOkkMY=; b=XHYDdaZIg7FWLbgwl2RQfok1WJwmYay6Dr6gi2KA0uxk7pYRAj+aNUadLzkbMgjRS5 SxzIHqF6sXBvpBCoiv2Ibl+QhWfr9VHviK6hILLDoOq76Q0ZS4LX3H9Hp+aB/LDCb+mx Fz9df87tawkqx2q3c+M9HOn+zU5nLQy601+mg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:organization:references :mail-copies-to:gmane-reply-to-list:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=hDUnvczj5ZKeKMjdnDBu22zUxdKrz9LP+2dXdiOkkMY=; b=fRLBbCRAUvB8L7hkXjSgia7f+KqL5JRU6zuBdlBsacp41h9QqKpii4jJSA3MM1zV9Q RRCtUym1kKcEiM4dhawi1KQmXGYbASav3lHXLK753zw5XE4mnqSJbv8dW3Jd1ZqxS2pV kjN2RiqN5fUddAfCk4Sod4ncd4LNeWojtEkQuRbD+4iOWE/0+v8AkXXm65S4yAPo7CVd JRB6TPiU6uNXH3dTgCdIhTGFFvVsf3Wa+TXpuyhgcH/4vfUHU7mkyfi8NfBWNYvT85Oy Deoi3IxMFa5187wSp7Oye6crAU2osdYm5EQRJq7uLwa3LQXJf8P4MphE4yosQk2QxsS8 rzBw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQki8V66mY/jvMvAmWeVclD4tVKmihsg0zKtx94Pp7zx9qaWP2nu3Q6Cc9dDoeLHfqwYQ9Ta X-Received: by 10.140.101.81 with SMTP id t75mr34125134qge.9.1430837378256; Tue, 05 May 2015 07:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flea (c-98-229-61-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [98.229.61.72]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id d11sm12344767qgd.31.2015.05.05.07.49.37 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 05 May 2015 07:49:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Zlatanov To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. Organization: =?utf-8?B?0KLQtdC+0LTQvtGAINCX0LvQsNGC0LDQvdC+0LI=?= @ Cienfuegos References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> X-Face: bd.DQ~'29fIs`T_%O%C\g%6jW)yi[zuz6; d4V0`@y-~$#3P_Ng{@m+e4o<4P'#(_GJQ%TT= D}[Ep*b!\e,fBZ'j_+#"Ps?s2!4H2-Y"sx" Mail-Copies-To: never Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:49:36 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Tue, 05 May 2015 10:38:53 -0400") Message-ID: <87383b9j0f.fsf@lifelogs.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130012 (Ma Gnus v0.12) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: Ivan Shmakov , 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Tue, 05 May 2015 10:38:53 -0400 Richard Stallman wrote: RS> If you type RET on a character, it should visit RS> admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt and move to the corresponding line. Could something like eldoc be used instead to show the information and the all the shortcuts to that character without switching buffers? Ted From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 11:31:16 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2015 15:31:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35475 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpeoV-0004Sw-80 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 11:31:16 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:55599) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpeoQ-0004SZ-Ux for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 11:31:12 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNV00G00UUE4D00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 18:31:04 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNV00F7UV3RWR80@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Tue, 05 May 2015 18:31:04 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 18:31:09 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: rms@gnu.org Message-id: <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:38:53 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > Would admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt do? > > It doesn't do the job, becuase it doesn't contain the characters > themselves. You mean, the glyphs? (It does show the codepoint, so you can easily display the character via "C-x 8 RET".) As for showing the glyphs, visiting a file with large number of characters runs a high risk of being an annoyance due to the corresponding fonts being unavailable on the system. E.g., "C-h H", which only shows a small part of those, takes 4 sec on my system with an optimized build, and about 6 in a non-optimized build. So if we provide such a command, IMO we should prompt for a block of codepoints, and display only that block. > If you type RET on a character, it should visit > admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt and move to the corresponding line. I'm not sure showing UnicodeData.txt in its raw form will be useful. Most people won't know how to interpret the attributes encoded there, about the only understandable parts are the codepoint and the name. And we already show this in human-readable form in "C-u C-x =", so we could simply reuse the same code here. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 11:32:42 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2015 15:32:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35479 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypepu-0004V8-A6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 11:32:42 -0400 Received: from mtaout25.012.net.il ([80.179.55.181]:43037) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypepr-0004Us-JQ for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 11:32:40 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout25.012.net.il by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNV00200UQ6QS00@mtaout25.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 18:28:19 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNV00H5BUZ7Y0A0@mtaout25.012.net.il>; Tue, 05 May 2015 18:28:19 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 18:32:39 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: <87383b9j0f.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Ted Zlatanov Message-id: <83h9rrrqeg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <87383b9j0f.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: rms@gnu.org, ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:49:36 -0400 > Cc: Ivan Shmakov , 20499@debbugs.gnu.org > > Could something like eldoc be used instead to show the information and > the all the shortcuts to that character without switching buffers? Sounds like a natural extension of "C-x =". (And no, I don't think that showing that info without an explicit user command is a good idea in this case. Eldoc has a very different use case in mind.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 12:05:58 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2015 16:05:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35489 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpfM2-0005KG-Hl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 12:05:58 -0400 Received: from fely.am-1.org ([78.47.74.50]:42555) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpfLx-0005K4-5I for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 12:05:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=BSFG+QbMUEF1gpo1cyZGHptlh6LAkYUO4EuVbKBCCdA=; b=iz5cUDErrzOkhHe511Fgxlf94uX5upmrq+3/BLwUzY9SowdUFutiIhDoTc8rkIYNxYCHSMw1dO25+3rESc/WafTwSlsK2gq5ct/9PpefoIUYTjcAyn2IGBOVw0RIPBBNs82lekKS9oSHS2ZDUaRehcKKEGqn53AoWiejrxwchbI=; Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpfLv-0001kN-8V for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 16:05:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpfLn-0008BD-Sw for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 23:05:40 +0700 From: Ivan Shmakov To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <87383b9j0f.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83h9rrrqeg.fsf@gnu.org> Mail-Followup-To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 16:05:37 +0000 In-Reply-To: <83h9rrrqeg.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 05 May 2015 18:32:39 +0300") Message-ID: <876187ko1a.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: >>>>> Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:49:36 -0400 >> Could something like eldoc be used instead to show the information >> and the all the shortcuts to that character without switching >> buffers? > Sounds like a natural extension of "C-x =3D". Agreed. > (And no, I don't think that showing that info without an explicit > user command is a good idea in this case. Eldoc has a very different > use case in mind.) I=E2=80=99m not fond of Eldoc, but I presume that after an explicit user M-x unicode-data-mode command =E2=80=93 it could be fine. I=E2=80=99d also prefer for that same mode to support NamesList.txt. --=20 FSF associate member #7257 http://am-1.org/~ivan/ =E2=80=A6 3013 B6A0= 230E 334A From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 12:21:05 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2015 16:21:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35504 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypfah-0005hz-Ge for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 12:21:04 -0400 Received: from fely.am-1.org ([78.47.74.50]:42559) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypfae-0005hN-DY for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 12:21:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=+4sTqf487FrNQowcMgPy9DmGztbZPlPNo10UgU3I1bA=; b=N3rV2KDI5zEFURdYGOyMp5oy0hwx4AJQ7/iBATar5IuvkPTgErFWkJBYxVzQbzKfxIwRoPXae/Q3bevB8RDqw2cp5M94UA00buUc3JwZRo+KIS3C9Ml9kweKhDl03Ssulm/rt8/V5OQbfbNBRaGfSCU8d+9Ch7SmWTnNzc8ogNM=; Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypfac-0001rV-Tk for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 16:20:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpfaW-0008DK-0f for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 23:20:52 +0700 From: Ivan Shmakov To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> Mail-Followup-To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 16:20:50 +0000 In-Reply-To: <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 05 May 2015 18:31:09 +0300") Message-ID: <871tivknbx.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: >>>>> Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 10:38:53 -0400 From: Richard Stallman [=E2=80=A6] > As for showing the glyphs, visiting a file with large number of > characters runs a high risk of being an annoyance due to the > corresponding fonts being unavailable on the system. E. g., "C-h H", > which only shows a small part of those, takes 4 sec on my system with > an optimized build, and about 6 in a non-optimized build. > So if we provide such a command, IMO we should prompt for a block of > codepoints, and display only that block. No objection on my part, but I=E2=80=99d rather provide the =E2=80=9Cbutto= ns=E2=80=9D to move to the previous and next blocks in that same buffer. OTOH, what would it take to improve the display time in such a case? Unless I be mistaken, other (as in: mainstream; think of, say, Firefox) software generally /does/ handle that case reasonably well. >> If you type RET on a character, it should visit >> admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt and move to the corresponding line. > I'm not sure showing UnicodeData.txt in its raw form will be useful. > Most people won't know how to interpret the attributes encoded there, > about the only understandable parts are the codepoint and the name. What about NamesList.txt? > And we already show this in human-readable form in "C-u C-x =3D", so we > could simply reuse the same code here. The problem with C-u C-x =3D is that it describes a single character a time, while it may be beneficial to see some =E2=80=9Crelated=E2=80=9D (in either name or number) characters as well. --=20 FSF associate member #7257 http://am-1.org/~ivan/ =E2=80=A6 3013 B6A0= 230E 334A From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 12:42:39 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2015 16:42:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35512 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypfva-0006E9-Lw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 12:42:39 -0400 Received: from mtaout24.012.net.il ([80.179.55.180]:37306) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YpfvX-0006Dv-P8 for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 12:42:37 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout24.012.net.il by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNV00M00XUGHT00@mtaout24.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2015 19:33:41 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNV00KETY05QK20@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Tue, 05 May 2015 19:33:41 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 19:42:33 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: <871tivknbx.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Ivan Shmakov Message-id: <838ud3rn5y.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <871tivknbx.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Ivan Shmakov > Date: Tue, 05 May 2015 16:20:50 +0000 > > > So if we provide such a command, IMO we should prompt for a block of > > codepoints, and display only that block. > > No objection on my part, but I’d rather provide the “buttons” to > move to the previous and next blocks in that same buffer. That could be okay, too, but it cannot be instead of a directly going to a block. Imagine going all the way to, say, the Aegean Numbers block by clicking Next, Next, Next, ... > OTOH, what would it take to improve the display time in such a > case? How can you improve it when fonts don't exist on the target machine? > Unless I be mistaken, other (as in: mainstream; think of, > say, Firefox) software generally /does/ handle that case > reasonably well. I don't know anything about that, except that Emacs uses the same libraries for accessing fonts. Unfortunately, we don't have on board an active enough maintainer who is knowledgeable about font handling (both in general and in Emacs). Feel free to fill the niche. > >> If you type RET on a character, it should visit > >> admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt and move to the corresponding line. > > > I'm not sure showing UnicodeData.txt in its raw form will be useful. > > Most people won't know how to interpret the attributes encoded there, > > about the only understandable parts are the codepoint and the name. > > What about NamesList.txt? What do you mean? NamesList.txt contains a different information, and once again at least part of it will not be easily understood, or even useful to most people, I think. > > And we already show this in human-readable form in "C-u C-x =", so we > > could simply reuse the same code here. > > The problem with C-u C-x = is that it describes a single > character a time, while it may be beneficial to see some > “related” (in either name or number) characters as well. Well, loops are available... But I very much doubt you'll be able to display enough useful information in a single line that way. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 06 09:09:14 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 May 2015 13:09:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36034 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypz4b-0000H1-PL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 09:09:14 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:48045 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypz4a-0000Gu-4A for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 09:09:12 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypz4X-0002JA-R0; Wed, 06 May 2015 09:09:10 -0400 Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 09:09:09 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Ivan Shmakov In-reply-to: <871tivknbx.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> (message from Ivan Shmakov on Tue, 05 May 2015 16:20:50 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <871tivknbx.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > I'm not sure showing UnicodeData.txt in its raw form will be useful. > > Most people won't know how to interpret the attributes encoded there, > > about the only understandable parts are the codepoint and the name. Even if the user understands only those two, the feature is useful nonetheless. Some slightly different feature might be better. I am not addressing those details. > What about NamesList.txt? I don't see a file named NamesList.txt there. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 06 09:09:29 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 May 2015 13:09:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36037 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypz4q-0000HT-TL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 09:09:29 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:48069 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypz4p-0000HM-Fu for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 09:09:28 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ypz4o-0002R6-2r; Wed, 06 May 2015 09:09:26 -0400 Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 09:09:26 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Tue, 05 May 2015 18:31:09 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > > Would admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt do? > > > > It doesn't do the job, becuase it doesn't contain the characters > > themselves. > You mean, the glyphs? Yes, exactly. (It does show the codepoint, so you can easily > display the character via "C-x 8 RET".) You mean, one character at a time? I want to be able to scan quickly through the buffer looking at lots of characters to find the one I want. If I have to type a command for _each character_, just to see it, that is useless for the purpose. C-x 8 RET is even worse than that, because it requires _copying_ the name of the character. To actually see the character point is on requires M-f C-f C-SPC C-s ; C-b M-w C-a C-x 8 RET C-y SPC I could make that a keyboard macro and repeat it many times to get all these codes into the buffer. It would take a long time. Furthermore, it would show only one character per line, so few characters would appear on the screen at any time. To look at them all would require lots of scrolling. To do this job well requires output like that of the short Lisp program someone sent, showing only characters and NOT the names, with many characters per line. The buffer shoulod be divided into stanzas, each one labeled with the name of its script or portion thereof. > As for showing the glyphs, visiting a file with large number of > characters runs a high risk of being an annoyance due to the > corresponding fonts being unavailable on the system. We could set up a way to test whether a code point can be displayed, and skip scripts that can't be displayed. So if we provide such a command, IMO we should prompt for a block of codepoints, and display only that block. It is inconvenient to expect users to know the codepoint values. Suppose I want to see Greek letters -- I have no idea what codepoints those are, and I should not need to know them in order to specify "Greek letters". To specify a script by name as an argument would be ok, but not very convenient. Here's a simpler and more convenient interface: The header line for each script could have a [hide] or [show] button to select visibility of that script. Initially they could all be hidden, and the user would expose those that she is interested in. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 06 11:33:50 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 May 2015 15:33:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36412 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yq1KX-0003tv-Ca for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 11:33:49 -0400 Received: from mtaout25.012.net.il ([80.179.55.181]:60564) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yq1KU-0003th-Iu for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 11:33:47 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout25.012.net.il by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNX00F00PGUQ100@mtaout25.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 18:29:26 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNX00FFAPP2G510@mtaout25.012.net.il>; Wed, 06 May 2015 18:29:26 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 18:33:48 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: rms@gnu.org Message-id: <83twvpra8z.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <871tivknbx.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 09:09:09 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > I'm not sure showing UnicodeData.txt in its raw form will be useful. > > > Most people won't know how to interpret the attributes encoded there, > > > about the only understandable parts are the codepoint and the name. > > Even if the user understands only those two, the feature is useful > nonetheless. Then perhaps we should show only the parts that are easily understandable. > > What about NamesList.txt? > > I don't see a file named NamesList.txt there. It's part of the Unicode Standard, you can find it here: http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/NamesList.txt From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 06 12:27:48 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 May 2015 16:27:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36452 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yq2Al-0005HV-BI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 12:27:47 -0400 Received: from mtaout27.012.net.il ([80.179.55.183]:44386) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yq2Ah-0005H8-2u for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 12:27:44 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout27.012.net.il by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNX00H00RXD2F00@mtaout27.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 19:22:47 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNX00935S5YED80@mtaout27.012.net.il>; Wed, 06 May 2015 19:22:47 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 19:27:44 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: rms@gnu.org Message-id: <83r3qtr7r3.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 09:09:26 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > CC: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > > > Would admin/unidata/UnicodeData.txt do? > > > > > > It doesn't do the job, becuase it doesn't contain the characters > > > themselves. > > > You mean, the glyphs? > > Yes, exactly. > > (It does show the codepoint, so you can easily > > display the character via "C-x 8 RET".) > > You mean, one character at a time? > > I want to be able to scan quickly through the buffer looking at > lots of characters to find the one I want. If I have to type > a command for _each character_, just to see it, that is useless > for the purpose. Maybe I don't understand the use case you have in mind. I thought the use case was that you already know the character's name, at least approximately, and want to look up its code, to type is faster. > C-x 8 RET is even worse than that, because it requires > _copying_ the name of the character. To actually see the character > point is on requires > M-f C-f C-SPC C-s ; C-b M-w C-a C-x 8 RET C-y SPC "C-x 8 RET" accepts the codepoint in hex, so if you are already looking at the line that defines the character, all you need is to type a 4-, sometimes 5-hex-digit number. And if you want to type the name, "C-x 8 RET" provides completion, so no need for such a complicated dance for copying the name. > I could make that a keyboard macro and repeat it many times > to get all these codes into the buffer. It would take a long time. > Furthermore, it would show only one character per line, > so few characters would appear on the screen at any time. > To look at them all would require lots of scrolling. I don't really see how looking for a character with your eyes could be a convenient feature, except in very corner situations with a small number of simply-looking characters. Even for Latin characters, there are many similar shapes, like Ả and Ă or Ő and Ố, and they are spread all over the Unicode range. How would you go about finding your character, if all you have is some vague idea of its shape (which, btw, could look quite different with different fonts)? Sounds like a very inefficient way to me. I think we must assume the user has some idea about the character: either its approximate name, or at least the block or script to which it belongs. Then we could display some reasonably manageable subset of characters. We could further help by asking about the base character (the above examples have either A or O as their base character), because if the user knows that, with some scripts the number of potential candidates will go down drastically. But even when the base character is known, the number of candidates is not negligible: e.g., there are 46 characters in the Unicode database that are somehow related to A. > The buffer shoulod be divided into stanzas, each one labeled with the > name of its script or portion thereof. Not sure what you mean by "script" here. Emacs currently knows about almost 100 scripts defined by Unicode, so even displaying a couple of lines for each one will make a large buffer. Isn't it better to allow the user to specify one, with completion? > > As for showing the glyphs, visiting a file with large number of > > characters runs a high risk of being an annoyance due to the > > corresponding fonts being unavailable on the system. > > We could set up a way to test whether a code point can be > displayed, and skip scripts that can't be displayed. Alas, we don't know which cannot be displayed until we've tried and failed. > So if we provide such a command, IMO we should prompt for a block of > codepoints, and display only that block. > > It is inconvenient to expect users to know the codepoint values. Unicode blocks have names, so providing completion for them would do the job, I think. The entire Unicode codespace is divided into about 200 blocks, so if the user knows, or can guess the one she needs, that will probably limit the search for the character to some reasonable quantity. Moreover, some scripts share the same blocks, and vice versa. So being able to specify just scripts or just blocks is not enough; we need both. I think we need all these methods, possibly more, because you may not necessarily know or guess easily where to look. For example, there are certain characters that appear as mathematical symbols in addition to their "normal" places, so unless the user already knows in which block to look, they will find the "base character" method very useful, and without it could very well miss their character. > Suppose I want to see Greek letters -- I have no idea what codepoints > those are, and I should not need to know them in order to specify > "Greek letters". You'd only need to know "Greek", and all the Greek blocks will be displayed. If you happen to know more, like "Greek Extended", it will further limit the number of characters to view. And, of course, there are complications: you might think it's a Greek character, but it could really be a math symbol or a Cyrillic character instead. > The header line for each script could have a [hide] or [show] button > to select visibility of that script. Initially they could all be > hidden, and the user would expose those that she is interested in. A 100-button buffer is not very convenient, especially when you have only an approximate idea about the script you are after (e.g., is that funny shape part of "Miscellaneous Technical" block or "Geometric Shapes"?) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 06 18:21:10 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 May 2015 22:21:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36621 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yq7gj-0001Sh-D7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 18:21:10 -0400 Received: from fely.am-1.org ([78.47.74.50]:42017) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yq7gf-0001SW-Rc for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 18:21:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=Lwo4dAb85m5HgT+ud65yrfpez3kyukU5o6WmF3tjFoU=; b=drXDMrp8aoV1sKHwF5CnC6LZ2MljhHQpA6F9dXWuMsdS7rb7jHNDYQlcpG+9ViOZ3a4nT52xuTjfDIBW5HidatVcO6F0th9uqZMa3a4D+kmyo0fj1YKkuKMnjqzRcyZBZ70+0O+a3SvlHQadOV0nXH3/3tpn/J7hHEOQEdosu9o=; Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yq7gd-0005vJ-T6 for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2015 22:21:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yq7gV-00074T-NS for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 05:20:55 +0700 From: Ivan Shmakov To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> Mail-Followup-To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 22:20:54 +0000 In-Reply-To: <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Mon, 04 May 2015 23:03:19 -0700") Message-ID: <87lhh1jqk9.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>>> Paul Eggert writes: >>> How about also adding s, t, S, T with cedilla, dotless i, and I >>> with dot. Also c and C with a hacek. >> Sure, I can look into that. Also the slashed L and l, perhaps, so >> that we can spell names like =C5=81ukasiewicz. > Attached is a revised patch that adds support for the abovementioned > characters, plus other Latin characters that might be encountered by > people mentioning foreign names. It makes room by rejiggering three > of the less-commonly used entries in the C-x 8 table. > --------------090904020002020306060104 > Content-Type: text/x-patch; > name=3D"0001-C-x-8-shorthands-for-curved-quotes-Euro-etc.patch" This MIME part sure wants =E2=80=98; charset=3DUTF-8=E2=80=99. Otherwise,= Gnus does no decoding, and Emacs shows the contents with the likes of \304\260. > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Content-Disposition: attachment; > filename=3D"0001-C-x-8-shorthands-for-curved-quotes-Euro-etc.patch" > From aafde36c45bd0341b07707409873fb93cbbb33f1 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 22:41:20 -0700 > Subject: [PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I presume that /this/ was intended to be the MIME part /header/, yet it ended up being in the part /body./ > + withdrawn still works character > + C-x 8 . C-x 8 . SPC =C2=B7 U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT > + C-x 8 =3D C-x 8 =3D SPC =C2=AF U+00AF SPACING MACRON > + C-x 8 u C-x 8 m =C2=B5 U+00B5 MICRO SIGN I believe that both C-x 8 . and C-x 8 u are too convenient to be dropped without more discussion. For one thing, =C2=B7 seems more =E2=80=9Ccommon=E2=80=9D a character than =C4=B0. Other than that, C-x 8 = . . feels easier to type than C-x 8 SPC. > -;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input definitions for ISO 8859-1 -*- co= ding: utf-8 -*- > +;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input for ISO characters -*- coding: utf= -8 -*- I guess we may safely state =E2=80=9CISO 10646=E2=80=9D here. > +;; This package supports all characters defined by ISO 8859-1, > +;; along with many other Latin characters and a few other characters > +;; commonly used in English and basic math. =E2=80=A6 And may also mention it here. > ("-" . [?=C2=AD]) > - ("*." . [?=C2=B7]) The removal above doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be strictly necessary. The same for the *=3D and *u ones. > ("~~" . [?=C2=AC]) > + ("=3DA" . [?=C4=80]) > + ("=3Da" . [?=C4=81]) > + ("uA" . [?=C4=82]) > + ("ua" . [?=C4=83]) > + ("gA" . [?=C4=84]) =E2=80=A6 Also, did you consider generating this list automatically, based on the codepoint properties already known to Emacs? Something along the lines of the function MIMEd, which readily produces a list of entries for the following 133 characters. (Three spaces added for symmetry purposes.) =C3=80 =C3=81 =C3=82 =C3=83 =C3=84 =C3=88 =C3=89 =C3=8A =C3=8B =C3=8C = =C3=8D =C3=8E =C3=8F =C3=91 =C3=92 =C3=93 =C3=94 =C3=95 =C3=96 =C3=99 =C3= =9A =C3=9B =C3=9C =C3=9D =C3=A0 =C3=A1 =C3=A2 =C3=A3 =C3=A4 =C3=A8 =C3=A9 =C3=AA =C3=AB =C3=AC = =C3=AD =C3=AE =C3=AF =C3=B1 =C3=B2 =C3=B3 =C3=B4 =C3=B5 =C3=B6 =C3=B9 =C3= =BA =C3=BB =C3=BC =C3=BD =C3=BF =C4=80 =C4=81 =C4=86 =C4=87 =C4=88 =C4=89 =C4=8C =C4=8D =C4=8E= =C4=8F =C4=92 =C4=93 =C4=9A =C4=9B =C4=9C =C4=9D =C4=A4 =C4=A5 =C4=A8 =C4= =A9 =C4=AA =C4=AB =C4=B4 =C4=B5 =C4=B9 =C4=BA =C4=BD =C4=BE =C5=83 =C5=84 =C5=87 =C5=88 =C5=8C =C5=8D =C5=94 =C5=95 = =C5=98 =C5=99 =C5=9A =C5=9B =C5=9C =C5=9D =C5=A0 =C5=A1 =C5=A4 =C5=A5 =C5= =A8 =C5=A9 =C5=AA =C5=AB =C5=B4 =C5=B5 =C5=B6 =C5=B7 =C5=B8 =C5=B9 =C5=BA =C5=BD =C5=BE =C7=8D =C7=8E =C7=8F =C7=90 =C7=91= =C7=92 =C7=93 =C7=94 =C7=A6 =C7=A7 =C7=A8 =C7=A9 =C7=B0 =C7=B4 =C7=B5 = =C7=B8 =C7=B9 =C8=98 =C8=99 =C8=9A =C8=9B =C8=9E =C8=9F =C8=B2 =C8=B3 --=20 FSF associate member #7257 http://am-1.org/~ivan/ =E2=80=A6 3013 B6A0= 230E 334A --=-=-= Content-Type: text/emacs-lisp Content-Disposition: inline (defun code-decomposition-to-iso-transl-map (&optional from to) (unless from (setq from #xa8)) (unless to (setq to #x2b0)) (let ((acc nil) (i from)) (while (< i to) (let* ((deco (get-char-code-property i 'decomposition)) ;; FIXME: handle the (eq 'compat (car deco)) case here (str (pcase deco (`(,c #x300) (string ?` c)) (`(,c #x301) (string ?' c)) (`(,c #x302) (string ?^ c)) (`(,c #x303) (string ?~ c)) (`(,c #x304) (string ?= c)) (`(,c #x308) (string 34 c)) (`(,c #x30c) (string ?v c)) (`(,c #x326) (string 59 c)) (`(,c #x326) (string ?, c))))) (when (and str (< (aref str 1) #x7f)) ; Is an ASCII character? (setq acc (cons (cons str (vector i)) acc)))) (setq i (+ 1 i))) ;; . acc)) --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 00:05:29 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2015 04:05:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36733 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqD3x-0001Y7-Fi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 00:05:29 -0400 Received: from mtaout26.012.net.il ([80.179.55.182]:51998) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqD3u-0001Xo-45 for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 00:05:27 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout26.012.net.il by mtaout26.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNY00E00O9M4R00@mtaout26.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 07:06:58 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout26.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNY005PBORMZQ80@mtaout26.012.net.il>; Thu, 07 May 2015 07:06:58 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 07:05:29 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: <87lhh1jqk9.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Ivan Shmakov Message-id: <83h9rpqbg6.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> <87lhh1jqk9.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Ivan Shmakov > Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 22:20:54 +0000 > > > -;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input definitions for ISO 8859-1 -*- coding: utf-8 -*- > > +;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input for ISO characters -*- coding: utf-8 -*- > > I guess we may safely state “ISO 10646” here. Actually, we should drop the "ISO" part completely. Characters don't belong to any encoding, they are entities that exists independently of any encoding. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 03:14:45 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2015 07:14:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36803 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqG16-0006J5-NL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 03:14:45 -0400 Received: from fely.am-1.org ([78.47.74.50]:42061) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqG14-0006Iw-5w for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 03:14:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=14sAqmvjze8GrucN6hl2JsZQURlpVJejNAaZavWUNhA=; b=jomFpHvmHsTVPX1DbD0r63jgOve9lnxDEW7XlfyjsRODWeRCrQbbDhwwSZCtJA4wbVjjt6zcJ5Q/FloeEG0ijyapDc6OOm26Zt93W8GKUZjwO4gMtnh0nwcip5N4bHjOLW2hFmSor6TU2415r0DlT4AntW30A+ojC3sd3gMmIA0=; Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqG13-0007TF-J8 for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 07:14:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqG0x-000834-77 for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 14:14:35 +0700 From: Ivan Shmakov To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> <87lhh1jqk9.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> <83h9rpqbg6.fsf@gnu.org> Mail-Followup-To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 07:14:34 +0000 In-Reply-To: <83h9rpqbg6.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 07 May 2015 07:05:29 +0300") Message-ID: <87d22ckgf9.fsf@violet.siamics.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: >>>>> From: Ivan Shmakov Date: Wed, 06 May 2015 22:20:54 +0000 >>> -;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input definitions for ISO 8859-1 -*- = coding: utf-8 -*- >>> +;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input for ISO characters -*- coding: u= tf-8 -*- >> I guess we may safely state =E2=80=9CISO 10646=E2=80=9D here. > Actually, we should drop the "ISO" part completely. Characters don't > belong to any encoding, they are entities that exists independently > of any encoding. ISO 10646 is also a /repertoire/ of characters; so unless 'iso-transl is going to get support for characters outside this particular set, the above will still be justified. Albeit mildly redundant, I guess. --=20 FSF associate member #7257 np. Computer Eyes =E2=80=94 Ayreon =E2=80=A6 3= 013 B6A0 230E 334A From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 03:53:47 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2015 07:53:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36876 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqGcr-0000KJ-Eu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 03:53:46 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:36850) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqGcn-0000Jv-Fi for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 03:53:43 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6964FA60043; Thu, 7 May 2015 00:53:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k5-sM7RtPEl4; Thu, 7 May 2015 00:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1CCBDA6000E; Thu, 7 May 2015 00:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <554B19FC.70602@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 00:53:32 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Shmakov Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040005020403010205020202" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040005020403010205020202 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I believe that both C-x 8 . and C-x 8 u are too convenient to be > dropped without more discussion. For one thing, · seems more > “common” a character than İ. In Turkish and Azerbaijani the reverse is true. And since RMS requested dotted I and dotless i my assumption was that Turkish is of some importance. Dotted sequences are the natural ways to type these characters as well as other dotted letters ĊċĖėĠġĿŀŻż in the proposal (used variously in Lithuanian, Maltese, and Polish), so there is a pretty strong case to usurp "C-x 8 .". The case for usurping "C-x 8 u" is even stronger, since it's equivalent to the equally-short "C-x 8 m", some easily-typed symbol is needed to denote breve, and "u" looks more like breve than any other ASCII character does. > Other than that, C-x 8 . . feels > easier to type than C-x 8 SPC. Good point, and I've done this in the attached patch. > > -;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input definitions for ISO 8859-1 -*- coding: utf-8 -*- > > +;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input for ISO characters -*- coding: utf-8 -*- > > I guess we may safely state “ISO 10646” here. Thanks, done in the attached patch. > > +;; This package supports all characters defined by ISO 8859-1, > > +;; along with many other Latin characters and a few other characters > > +;; commonly used in English and basic math. > > … And may also mention it here. Thanks, also done. > > ("-" . [?­]) > > - ("*." . [?·]) > > The removal above doesn’t seem to be strictly necessary. The > same for the *= and *u ones. Thanks, fixed in the attached patch. > … Also, did you consider generating this list automatically, > based on the codepoint properties already known to Emacs? > Something along the lines of the function MIMEd, which readily > produces a list of entries for the following 133 characters. > (Three spaces added for symmetry purposes.) > > À Á Â Ã Ä È É Ê Ë Ì Í Î Ï Ñ Ò Ó Ô Õ Ö Ù Ú Û Ü Ý > à á â ã ä è é ê ë ì í î ï ñ ò ó ô õ ö ù ú û ü ý > ÿ Ā ā Ć ć Ĉ ĉ Č č Ď ď Ē ē Ě ě Ĝ ĝ Ĥ ĥ Ĩ ĩ Ī ī Ĵ ĵ Ĺ ĺ > Ľ ľ Ń ń Ň ň Ō ō Ŕ ŕ Ř ř Ś ś Ŝ ŝ Š š Ť ť Ũ ũ Ū ū Ŵ ŵ Ŷ ŷ > Ÿ Ź ź Ž ž Ǎ ǎ Ǐ ǐ Ǒ ǒ Ǔ ǔ Ǧ ǧ Ǩ ǩ ǰ Ǵ ǵ Ǹ ǹ Ș ș Ț ț > Ȟ ȟ Ȳ ȳ Sorry, I don't really follow the code that you attached. Although I suppose it comes from a decomposition table, I don't know what the table was designed for, and it's not clear to me how it's relevant. Anyway, most of those letters are either in iso-transl.el now, or are in the previously proposed patch. Here are the exceptional (i.e., missing even in the previously proposed patch) letters, along with some comments about these exceptions: > Ǎ ǎ Ǐ ǐ Ǒ ǒ Ǔ ǔ Ǹ ǹ These are for toned Pinyin but this list is incomplete. If we wanted to cover toned Pinyin, we'd also need Ǖ ǖ Ǘ ǘ Ǚ ǚ Ǜ ǜ. Coming up with two-character abbreviations for all these might be tricky. Most Pinyin usage omits the tones. > Ǧ ǧ Ǩ ǩ These are Skolt Sami but this list is also incomplete; we'd also need Ʒ Ǥ ǥ Ǯ ǯ ʒ at least. > ǰ What language uses this? I couldn't find one. > Ǵ ǵ Good catch. These are used for transliteration from Serbian and Macedonian. We should also include Ḱ ḱ as they are also needed. Included in the attached patch. > Ȟ ȟ Used in Finnish Kalo, which is quite obscure. > Ȳ ȳ Used in Livonian, but for that we'd also need a whole bunch of other letters, including Ǟ ǟ Ḑ ḑ Ȫ ȫ Ȭ ȭ Ȯ ȯ Ȱ and I've probably omitted some. Plus, modern Livonian doesn't seem to be using Ȳ ȳ any more.... Anyway, part of what's going on here is that the proposed list doesn't cover every Latin character in the ISO 10646 repertoire (that'd be a large set), but instead is limited to what appear to be reasonably commonly letters. Admittedly this is not universal but one must cut things off somewhere, and it would be odd to add only partial coverage for toned Pinyin, Livonian, etc. > > --------------090904020002020306060104 > > Content-Type: text/x-patch; > > name="0001-C-x-8-shorthands-for-curved-quotes-Euro-etc.patch" > > This MIME part sure wants ‘; charset=UTF-8’. Otherwise, Gnus > does no decoding, and Emacs shows the contents with the likes of > \304\260. Hmm, it works for me. I use Thunderbird to read the top level message, and it spins off an Emacs to display the attachment with no problem. The web-site archive at also works for me with Firefox. It's common for people to send the output of "git send-email" as attachments; if this doesn't work with Gnus I suppose a Gnus user (i.e. not me :-) should file a bug report. I looked around the net and found other Gnus users with similar problems and some code that worked for them; please see and/or . But this stuff appeared to be several years old and this leads me to hope that maybe recent-enough Gnus versions will do the right thing already. --------------040005020403010205020202 Content-Type: text/x-patch; name="0001-C-x-8-shorthands-for-curved-quotes-Euro-etc.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-C-x-8-shorthands-for-curved-quotes-Euro-etc.patch" >From 6df8a6734078c274a964701e46a414185bde8e7a Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Paul Eggert Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 20:01:46 -0700 Subject: [PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Although C-x 8 lets you insert arbitrary Unicode characters, it's awkward to use this to insert commonly used symbols such as curved quotes, the Euro symbol, etc. This patch adds simpler sequences for many Latin characters (e.g., the Euro), plus characters that are commonly found in English text and in basic math. For example, assuming the Alt key works on your keyboard and iso-transl is loaded, one can now type "A-[" instead of "A-RET LEFT SIN TAB RET" to get the character "‘" (U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK). (Bug#20499) * doc/emacs/mule.texi (Unibyte Mode): Many more Latin and a few other printing characters now work too. * etc/NEWS: Document this. * lisp/international/iso-transl.el (iso-transl-char-map): Withdraw "C-x 8 ." (· U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT), "C-x 8 =" (¯ U+00AF SPACING MACRON), and "C-x 8 u" (µ U+00B5 MICRO SIGN) as they are now used for compositions. The longer forms still work. Also support the following characters, which are used in either current English or Latin-alphabet or basic math text: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ĀāĂ㥹ĆćĈĉĊċČčĎďĐđĒēĔĕĖėĘęĚěĜĝĞğĠġĢģǴǵĤĥĦħĨĩĪīĬĭĮįİıĴĵḰḱĶķĸĹĺĻļĽľĿŀŁł ŃńŅņŇňŊŋŌōŎŏŐőŒœŔŕŖŗŘřŚśŜŝŞşŠšŢţŤťŦŧŨũŪūŬŭŮůŰűŲųŴŵŶŷŸŹźŻżŽžſȘșȚț --- doc/emacs/mule.texi | 4 +- etc/NEWS | 11 +++ lisp/international/iso-transl.el | 169 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++- 3 files changed, 178 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-) diff --git a/doc/emacs/mule.texi b/doc/emacs/mule.texi index de381df..b7632a9 100644 --- a/doc/emacs/mule.texi +++ b/doc/emacs/mule.texi @@ -1660,8 +1660,8 @@ characters present directly on the keyboard or using @key{Compose} or @cindex compose character @cindex dead character @item -For Latin-1 only, you can use the key @kbd{C-x 8} as a ``compose -character'' prefix for entry of non-@acronym{ASCII} Latin-1 printing +You can use the key @kbd{C-x 8} as a ``compose character'' prefix for +entry of common non-@acronym{ASCII} Latin and a few other printing characters. @kbd{C-x 8} is good for insertion (in the minibuffer as well as other buffers), for searching, and in any other context where a key sequence is allowed. diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS index 3ab1f4b..46576c2 100644 --- a/etc/NEWS +++ b/etc/NEWS @@ -213,6 +213,17 @@ successive char insertions. ** Unicode names entered via C-x 8 RET now use substring completion by default. +** C-x 8 has shorthands for more Latin and a few other common chars. +For example, C-x 8 . I is now short for İ U+0130 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER +I WITH DOT ABOVE. As before, you can type C-x 8 C-h to list all +shorthands. To make room for the new shorthands, three aliases have +been withdrawn, as follows: + + withdrawn added still works character + C-x 8 . C-x 8 . . C-x 8 . SPC · U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT + C-x 8 = C-x 8 = SPC ¯ U+00AF SPACING MACRON + C-x 8 u C-x 8 m µ U+00B5 MICRO SIGN + ** New minor mode global-eldoc-mode is enabled by default. ** Emacs now supports "bracketed paste mode" when running on a terminal diff --git a/lisp/international/iso-transl.el b/lisp/international/iso-transl.el index 73bcae0..b12322e 100644 --- a/lisp/international/iso-transl.el +++ b/lisp/international/iso-transl.el @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input definitions for ISO 8859-1 -*- coding: utf-8 -*- +;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input for ISO 10646 chars -*- coding: utf-8 -*- ;; Copyright (C) 1987, 1993-1999, 2001-2015 Free Software Foundation, ;; Inc. @@ -36,6 +36,10 @@ ;; to make all of the Alt keys autoload, and it is not clear ;; that the dead accent keys SHOULD autoload this package. +;; This package supports all characters defined by ISO 8859-1, along +;; with many other Latin characters defined by ISO 10646 and a few +;; other ISO 10646 characters commonly used in English and basic math. + ;;; Code: ;;; Provide some binding for startup: @@ -113,7 +117,7 @@ ("*-" . [?­]) ("-" . [?­]) ("*." . [?·]) - ("." . [?·]) + (".." . [?·]) ("//" . [?÷]) ("/A" . [?Å]) ("/E" . [?Æ]) @@ -127,7 +131,7 @@ ("*<" . [?«]) ("<" . [?«]) ("*=" . [?¯]) - ("=" . [?¯]) + ("= " . [?¯]) ("*>" . [?»]) (">" . [?»]) ("*?" . [?¿]) @@ -174,7 +178,6 @@ ("*o" . [?°]) ("o" . [?°]) ("*u" . [?µ]) - ("u" . [?µ]) ("*m" . [?µ]) ("m" . [?µ]) ("*x" . [?×]) @@ -192,6 +195,164 @@ ("~o" . [?õ]) ("~t" . [?þ]) ("~~" . [?¬]) + ("=A" . [?Ā]) + ("=a" . [?ā]) + ("uA" . [?Ă]) + ("ua" . [?ă]) + ("gA" . [?Ą]) + ("ga" . [?ą]) + ("'C" . [?Ć]) + ("'c" . [?ć]) + ("^C" . [?Ĉ]) + ("^c" . [?ĉ]) + (".C" . [?Ċ]) + (".c" . [?ċ]) + ("vC" . [?Č]) + ("vc" . [?č]) + ("vD" . [?Ď]) + ("vd" . [?ď]) + ("=D" . [?Đ]) + ("=d" . [?đ]) + ("=E" . [?Ē]) + ("=e" . [?ē]) + ("uE" . [?Ĕ]) + ("ue" . [?ĕ]) + (".E" . [?Ė]) + (".e" . [?ė]) + ("gE" . [?Ę]) + ("ge" . [?ę]) + ("vE" . [?Ě]) + ("ve" . [?ě]) + ("^G" . [?Ĝ]) + ("^g" . [?ĝ]) + ("uG" . [?Ğ]) + ("ug" . [?ğ]) + (".G" . [?Ġ]) + (".g" . [?ġ]) + (",G" . [?Ģ]) + (",g" . [?ģ]) + ("^H" . [?Ĥ]) + ("^h" . [?ĥ]) + ("=H" . [?Ħ]) + ("=h" . [?ħ]) + ("~I" . [?Ĩ]) + ("~i" . [?ĩ]) + ("=I" . [?Ī]) + ("=i" . [?ī]) + ("uI" . [?Ĭ]) + ("ui" . [?ĭ]) + ("gI" . [?Į]) + ("gi" . [?į]) + (".I" . [?İ]) + (".i" . [?ı]) + ("^J" . [?Ĵ]) + ("^j" . [?ĵ]) + (",K" . [?Ķ]) + (",k" . [?ķ]) + ("qk" . [?ĸ]) + ("'L" . [?Ĺ]) + ("'l" . [?ĺ]) + (",L" . [?Ļ]) + (",l" . [?ļ]) + ("vL" . [?Ľ]) + ("vl" . [?ľ]) + (".L" . [?Ŀ]) + (".l" . [?ŀ]) + ("=L" . [?Ł]) + ("=l" . [?ł]) + ("'N" . [?Ń]) + ("'n" . [?ń]) + (",N" . [?Ņ]) + (",n" . [?ņ]) + ("vN" . [?Ň]) + ("vn" . [?ň]) + ("Ng" . [?Ŋ]) + ("ng" . [?ŋ]) + ("=O" . [?Ō]) + ("=o" . [?ō]) + ("uO" . [?Ŏ]) + ("uo" . [?ŏ]) + ("2O" . [?Ő]) + ("2o" . [?ő]) + ("OE" . [?Œ]) + ("Oe" . [?œ]) + ("'R" . [?Ŕ]) + ("'r" . [?ŕ]) + (",R" . [?Ŗ]) + (",r" . [?ŗ]) + ("vR" . [?Ř]) + ("vr" . [?ř]) + ("'S" . [?Ś]) + ("'s" . [?ś]) + ("^S" . [?Ŝ]) + ("^s" . [?ŝ]) + (",S" . [?Ş]) + (",s" . [?ş]) + ("vS" . [?Š]) + ("vs" . [?š]) + (",T" . [?Ţ]) + (",t" . [?ţ]) + ("vT" . [?Ť]) + ("vt" . [?ť]) + ("=T" . [?Ŧ]) + ("=t" . [?ŧ]) + ("~U" . [?Ũ]) + ("~u" . [?ũ]) + ("=U" . [?Ū]) + ("=u" . [?ū]) + ("uU" . [?Ŭ]) + ("uu" . [?ŭ]) + ("/U" . [?Ů]) + ("/u" . [?ů]) + ("2U" . [?Ű]) + ("2u" . [?ű]) + ("gU" . [?Ų]) + ("gu" . [?ų]) + ("^W" . [?Ŵ]) + ("^w" . [?ŵ]) + ("^Y" . [?Ŷ]) + ("^y" . [?ŷ]) + ("\"Y" . [?Ÿ]) + ("'Z" . [?Ź]) + ("'z" . [?ź]) + (".Z" . [?Ż]) + (".z" . [?ż]) + ("vZ" . [?Ž]) + ("vz" . [?ž]) + ("ls" . [?ſ]) + ("'G" . [?Ǵ]) + ("'g" . [?ǵ]) + (";S" . [?Ș]) + (";s" . [?ș]) + (";T" . [?Ț]) + (";t" . [?ț]) + ("'K" . [?Ḱ]) + ("'k" . [?ḱ]) + ("_h" . [?‐]) + ("_H" . [?‑]) + ("_f" . [?‒]) + ("_n" . [?–]) + ("_m" . [?—]) + ("_q" . [?―]) + ("[" . [?‘]) + ("]" . [?’]) + ("{" . [?“]) + ("}" . [?”]) + ("1+" . [?†]) + ("2+" . [?‡]) + ("**" . [?•]) + ("*'" . [?′]) + ("*\"" . [?″]) + ("*E" . [?€]) + ("No" . [?№]) + ("a<" . [?←]) + ("a>" . [?→]) + ("a=" . [?↔]) + ("_-" . [?−]) + ("~=" . [?≈]) + ("/=" . [?≠]) + ("_<" . [?≤]) + ("_>" . [?≥]) ("' " . "'") ("` " . "`") ("\" " . "\"") -- 2.1.0 --------------040005020403010205020202-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 06:00:52 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2015 10:00:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37012 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqIbq-00054K-Vd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 06:00:52 -0400 Received: from fely.am-1.org ([78.47.74.50]:42071) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqIbn-000549-JI for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 06:00:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=P+rgo8inFkAYa4rTNFFNYyBNCOamIrfrM5ZQBC1xQ7w=; b=S6hq7rPBRA9yLZnnDTx0iCauAe2jb6aMNDx/WBfxGfadgWnIj4P7aWFvafuYk8HXCutINOkhGxsLd9N7wseC/S2OYcpiDcylTSrrwRJKgH1f/nK3/vDCvaszx4a0sD3ufxztqJExC75Sg0OARLNFqe93fpMUkhyhAdwjStwvDBg=; Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqIbm-00089a-8I for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 10:00:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqIbf-0000dJ-JN for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 17:00:39 +0700 From: Ivan Shmakov To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> <554B19FC.70602@cs.ucla.edu> Mail-Followup-To: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 10:00:38 +0000 In-Reply-To: <554B19FC.70602@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Thu, 07 May 2015 00:53:32 -0700") Message-ID: <878ud0k8qh.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) >>>>> Paul Eggert writes: [=E2=80=A6] >> =E2=80=A6 Also, did you consider generating this list automatically, ba= sed >> on the codepoint properties already known to Emacs? Something along >> the lines of the function MIMEd, which readily produces a list of >> entries for the following 133 characters. (Three spaces added for >> symmetry purposes.) >> =C3=80 =C3=81 =C3=82 =C3=83 =C3=84 =C3=88 =C3=89 =C3=8A =C3=8B =C3=8C = =C3=8D =C3=8E =C3=8F =C3=91 =C3=92 =C3=93 =C3=94 =C3=95 =C3=96 =C3=99 =C3= =9A =C3=9B =C3=9C =C3=9D >> =C3=A0 =C3=A1 =C3=A2 =C3=A3 =C3=A4 =C3=A8 =C3=A9 =C3=AA =C3=AB =C3=AC = =C3=AD =C3=AE =C3=AF =C3=B1 =C3=B2 =C3=B3 =C3=B4 =C3=B5 =C3=B6 =C3=B9 =C3= =BA =C3=BB =C3=BC =C3=BD >> =C3=BF =C4=80 =C4=81 =C4=86 =C4=87 =C4=88 =C4=89 =C4=8C =C4=8D =C4=8E= =C4=8F =C4=92 =C4=93 =C4=9A =C4=9B =C4=9C =C4=9D =C4=A4 =C4=A5 =C4=A8 =C4= =A9 =C4=AA =C4=AB =C4=B4 =C4=B5 =C4=B9 =C4=BA >> =C4=BD =C4=BE =C5=83 =C5=84 =C5=87 =C5=88 =C5=8C =C5=8D =C5=94 =C5=95 = =C5=98 =C5=99 =C5=9A =C5=9B =C5=9C =C5=9D =C5=A0 =C5=A1 =C5=A4 =C5=A5 =C5= =A8 =C5=A9 =C5=AA =C5=AB =C5=B4 =C5=B5 =C5=B6 =C5=B7 >> =C5=B8 =C5=B9 =C5=BA =C5=BD =C5=BE =C7=8D =C7=8E =C7=8F =C7=90 =C7=91= =C7=92 =C7=93 =C7=94 =C7=A6 =C7=A7 =C7=A8 =C7=A9 =C7=B0 =C7=B4 =C7=B5 = =C7=B8 =C7=B9 =C8=98 =C8=99 =C8=9A =C8=9B >> =C8=9E =C8=9F =C8=B2 =C8=B3 > Sorry, I don't really follow the code that you attached. Which part, specifically? It just iterates over the range given (or U+00A8 through U+02AF by default) and maps =E2=80=9CLATIN + COMBINING=E2=80=9D decompositions to 'iso-transl entries. For example, it maps the (?g #x327) decomposition (U+0327 being COMBINING CEDILLA) for U+0123 into an (",g" . =C4=A3) entry. Or, rather, it /should/, for my code has an obvious typo: (`(,c #x30c) (string ?v c)) (`(,c #x326) (string 59 c)) - (`(,c #x326) (string ?, c))))) + (`(,c #x327) (string ?, c))))) Other possible additions (assuming we=E2=80=99ll agree on C-x 8 u, C-x 8 .) are: (`(,c #x304) (string ?=3D c)) + (`(,c #x306) (string ?u c)) + (`(,c #x307) (string ?. c)) (`(,c #x308) (string 34 c)) + (`(,c #x30b) (string ?2 c)) (`(,c #x30c) (string ?v c)) > Although I suppose it comes from a decomposition table, I don't know > what the table was designed for, and it's not clear to me how it's > relevant. I hope someone more knowledgeable could comment on this. Still, this (ab)use of the data seem to work well in practice. > Anyway, most of those letters are either in iso-transl.el now, The point is to /remove/ them from 'iso-transl, as these entries duplicate, in a way, a part of the decomposition table already present in Emacs. [=E2=80=A6] >> =C7=8D =C7=8E =C7=8F =C7=90 =C7=91 =C7=92 =C7=93 =C7=94 =C7=B8 =C7=B9 > These are for toned Pinyin but this list is incomplete. If we wanted > to cover toned Pinyin, we'd also need =C7=95 =C7=96 =C7=97 =C7=98 =C7=99= =C7=9A =C7=9B =C7=9C. Coming up > with two-character abbreviations for all these might be tricky. But are we actually limited to two-character abbreviations only? Why not allow for, say, C-x 8 " ' u? [=E2=80=A6] >> =C7=B0 > What language uses this? I couldn't find one. To quote NamesList.txt: 01F0 LATIN SMALL LETTER J WITH CARON * IPA and many languages >> =C7=B4 =C7=B5 > Good catch. These are used for transliteration from Serbian and > Macedonian. We should also include =E1=B8=B0 =E1=B8=B1 as they are also= needed. > Included in the attached patch. The code I=E2=80=99ve suggested could be used to scan the U+1Exx range just as well, thus resulting in the following set. =E1=B8=90 =E1=B8=91 =E1=B8=A0 =E1=B8=A1 =E1=B8=A6 =E1=B8=A7 =E1=B8=A8 = =E1=B8=A9 =E1=B8=B0 =E1=B8=B1 =E1=B8=BE =E1=B8=BF =E1=B9=94 =E1=B9=95 =E1= =B9=BC =E1=B9=BD =E1=BA=80 =E1=BA=81 =E1=BA=82 =E1=BA=83 =E1=BA=84 =E1=BA= =85 =E1=BA=8C =E1=BA=8D =E1=BA=90 =E1=BA=91 =E1=BA=97 =E1=BA=BC =E1=BA=BD = =E1=BB=B2 =E1=BB=B3 =E1=BB=B8 =E1=BB=B9 [=E2=80=A6] > Anyway, part of what's going on here is that the proposed list > doesn't cover every Latin character in the ISO 10646 repertoire > (that'd be a large set), but instead is limited to what appear to be > reasonably commonly letters. Admittedly this is not universal but > one must cut things off somewhere, and it would be odd to add only > partial coverage for toned Pinyin, Livonian, etc. When it comes to the LATIN =E2=80=A6 LETTER WITH =E2=80=A6 letters, my pro= posal for such a cut off would be to satisfy /both/ of the following criteria: =E2=80=A2 only cover specific Unicode ranges; such as, for instance, U+00A8 through U+02AF, U+1E00 =E2=80=A6 U+1EFF, perhaps 2C60 =E2=80=A6 2= C7F; =E2=80=A2 only cover the letters which can be represented with a sufficiently general C-x 8 =E2=9F=A8diacritic=E2=9F=A9+ =E2=9F=A8ASCII-l= atin=E2=9F=A9 pattern. Other characters deemed common may be added to the list. >>> --------------090904020002020306060104 >>> Content-Type: text/x-patch; >>> name=3D"0001-C-x-8-shorthands-for-curved-quotes-Euro-etc.patch" >> This MIME part sure wants =E2=80=98; charset=3DUTF-8=E2=80=99. Otherwi= se, Gnus does >> no decoding, and Emacs shows the contents with the likes of >> \304\260. > Hmm, it works for me. I use Thunderbird to read the top level > message, and it spins off an Emacs to display the attachment with no > problem. I can =E2=80=9Cspin off=E2=80=9D cat(1) to read the offending MIME part, t= oo: Emacs will feed it raw-text, and interpret the result as UTF-8 (the default.) It still does /not/ comply with the MIME specification. Consider section 4.1.2 of RFC 2046: RFC> [=E2=80=A6] The default character set, which must be assumed in the RFC> absence of a charset parameter, is US-ASCII. RFC 6657 updates this as follows: RFC> Each subtype of the "text" media type that uses the "charset" RFC> parameter can define its own default value for the "charset" RFC> parameter, including the absence of any default. However, given that =E2=80=98text/x-patch=E2=80=99 is not a /registered/ M= IME type, I believe the above does not apply. > The web-site archive at also works for > me with Firefox. > It's common for people to send the output of "git send-email" as > attachments; If Thunderbird /knows/ the encoding (=E2=80=9Ccharacter set=E2=80=9D) of t= he contents of the MIME part, it /should/ specify it in the MIME part header. If the said contents is strictly 7-bit, it /could/ omit that (given that it=E2=80=99s more than likely to be US-ASCII.) Otherwise, I guess Thunderbird should either ask the user for the encoding /or/ send the part as application/octet-stream. [=E2=80=A6] --=20 FSF associate member #7257 np. Satellite one =E2=80=94 Purple Motion B6A0= 230E 334A From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 10:33:27 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2015 14:33:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37912 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqMre-0004rn-Kf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 10:33:26 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:58552) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqMrb-0004rX-6E for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 10:33:25 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNZ00F00HOSLF00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 17:33:16 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNZ00FMPHRFKE10@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Thu, 07 May 2015 17:33:15 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 17:33:26 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: <87d22ckgf9.fsf@violet.siamics.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Ivan Shmakov Message-id: <83d22cqwy1.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> <87lhh1jqk9.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> <83h9rpqbg6.fsf@gnu.org> <87d22ckgf9.fsf@violet.siamics.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Ivan Shmakov > Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 07:14:34 +0000 > > > Actually, we should drop the "ISO" part completely. Characters don't > > belong to any encoding, they are entities that exists independently > > of any encoding. > > ISO 10646 is also a /repertoire/ of characters; so unless > 'iso-transl is going to get support for characters outside this > particular set, the above will still be justified. Albeit > mildly redundant, I guess. We are splitting hair. But as long as we do, I see no reason to promise or assume that iso-transl will always support only Unicode codepoints; e.g., "C-x 8 RET" already supports more. So I'd rather we dropped that reference entirely. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 10:44:33 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2015 14:44:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37916 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqN2P-00057i-7I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 10:44:33 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:50969) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqN2M-00057U-Fe for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 10:44:31 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NNZ00C00I9AP800@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 17:44:15 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NNZ00CQMI9QD960@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 07 May 2015 17:44:15 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 17:44:25 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: <878ud0k8qh.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Ivan Shmakov Message-id: <83a8xgqwfq.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> <554B19FC.70602@cs.ucla.edu> <878ud0k8qh.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Ivan Shmakov > Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 10:00:38 +0000 > > > Although I suppose it comes from a decomposition table, I don't know > > what the table was designed for, and it's not clear to me how it's > > relevant. > > I hope someone more knowledgeable could comment on this. I'm not sure I'm your man, or what needs to be commented on, but I will try nonetheless ;-) The 'decomposition property of a character (as every other property accessed by get-char-code-property) comes directly from Unicode database. In this case, you will see that some characters in UnicodeData.txt have this part non-empty: 1E99;LATIN SMALL LETTER Y WITH RING ABOVE;Ll;0;L;0079 030A;;;;N;;;;; ^^^^^^^^^ This gives the so-called "canonical decomposition" of the character; in this case, we are told that U+1E99's decomposition is a sequence of U+0079 (lower-case y) followed by U+030A (combining ring above). Some characters have "compatibility decompositions" instead, like this: 1E9A;LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH RIGHT HALF RING;Ll;0;L; 0061 02BE;;;;N;;;;; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ which is useful for collation-driven sorting and for loose comparisons a-la string-collate-lessp. For more details about this, see http://unicode.org/reports/tr44/, the Unicode Technical Report that describes the Unicode Character Database. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 13:04:12 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2015 17:04:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38024 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqPDX-0001ff-8d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 13:04:11 -0400 Received: from mercure.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.24.67]:48421) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqPDU-0001fW-RE for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 13:04:09 -0400 Received: from hidalgo.iro.umontreal.ca (hidalgo.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.50]) by mercure.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B7F89C134; Thu, 7 May 2015 13:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lechon.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by hidalgo.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3FAF1E5B8D; Thu, 7 May 2015 13:03:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lechon.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id BBC22B41A0; Thu, 7 May 2015 13:03:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. Message-ID: References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> <554B19FC.70602@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 13:03:33 -0400 In-Reply-To: <554B19FC.70602@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Thu, 07 May 2015 00:53:32 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-DIRO-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-DIRO-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-DIRO-MailScanner-SpamCheck: n'est pas un polluriel, SpamAssassin (score=-2.82, requis 5, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -2.82, MC_TSTLAST 0.00) X-DIRO-MailScanner-From: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: Ivan Shmakov , 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) >> =E2=80=A6 Also, did you consider generating this list automatically, >> based on the codepoint properties already known to Emacs? [...] > Sorry, I don't really follow the code that you attached. Although I supp= ose > it comes from a decomposition table, I don't know what the table was > designed for, and it's not clear to me how it's relevant. Anyway, most of I'm not sure exactly what he wanted to say, but it sounds to me like it's going in the same direction as my earlier request to replace the hard-coded table by code that auto-generates the cases. There is already similar code in latin-ltx.el (written by yours truly). Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 18:22:32 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2015 22:22:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38155 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqUBb-00047t-AJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 18:22:31 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:35964 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqUBZ-00047m-Ij for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2015 18:22:30 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YqUBV-0004BF-FS; Thu, 07 May 2015 18:22:25 -0400 Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 18:22:25 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <83r3qtr7r3.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Wed, 06 May 2015 19:27:44 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <83r3qtr7r3.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Maybe I don't understand the use case you have in mind. I thought the > use case was that you already know the character's name, at least > approximately, and want to look up its code, to type is faster. I know what the character looks like. It is NOT easy to guess what the name would be. There are many possibilities. > > C-x 8 RET is even worse than that, because it requires > > _copying_ the name of the character. To actually see the character > > point is on requires > > M-f C-f C-SPC C-s ; C-b M-w C-a C-x 8 RET C-y SPC > "C-x 8 RET" accepts the codepoint in hex, so if you are already > looking at the line that defines the character, all you need is to > type a 4-, sometimes 5-hex-digit number. > And if you want to type the name, "C-x 8 RET" provides completion, so > no need for such a complicated dance for copying the name. Are you kidding? Just to see 32 characters' glyphs I'd have to type 128 input characters. The feature I want would show 32 glyphs on each line, and many lines would fit on the screen at once. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 01:48:30 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2015 05:48:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38214 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yqb9B-0006sA-Vv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 01:48:30 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:45206) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yqb98-0006rs-JW for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 01:48:28 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NO000I00O36CQ00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 08:48:14 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NO000HEHO4BYT60@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 08 May 2015 08:48:12 +0300 (IDT) Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 08:48:24 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: rms@gnu.org Message-id: <83wq0jpql3.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <83r3qtr7r3.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Thu, 07 May 2015 18:22:25 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > CC: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Maybe I don't understand the use case you have in mind. I thought the > > use case was that you already know the character's name, at least > > approximately, and want to look up its code, to type is faster. > > I know what the character looks like. It is NOT easy to guess > what the name would be. There are many possibilities. If that's the use case (I don't think you described it before), then we indeed need a convenient facility to browse character glyphs. But that facility should allow to specify additional information, such as the script name, or block name, or the base character, otherwise you are likely to give up due to the sheer number of characters to view. > > > C-x 8 RET is even worse than that, because it requires > > > _copying_ the name of the character. To actually see the character > > > point is on requires > > > M-f C-f C-SPC C-s ; C-b M-w C-a C-x 8 RET C-y SPC > > > "C-x 8 RET" accepts the codepoint in hex, so if you are already > > looking at the line that defines the character, all you need is to > > type a 4-, sometimes 5-hex-digit number. > > > And if you want to type the name, "C-x 8 RET" provides completion, so > > no need for such a complicated dance for copying the name. > > Are you kidding? Just to see 32 characters' glyphs > I'd have to type 128 input characters. No, you need to type much less. A codepoint, if you know it, is at most 5 characters, and for name completion, typing something like C-x 8 RET greek (all in all 10 characters) will have the completions buffer pop up. Each completion candidate has the character glyph displayed right next to it, so you could use that for finding the one you are looking for. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 14:47:01 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2015 18:47:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39017 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqnIa-0006fK-Uv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 14:47:01 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:58422 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqnIZ-0006fA-Ao for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 14:46:59 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YqnIW-0003B3-IU; Fri, 08 May 2015 14:46:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 14:46:56 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <83wq0jpql3.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Fri, 08 May 2015 08:48:24 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <83r3qtr7r3.fsf@gnu.org> <83wq0jpql3.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > If that's the use case (I don't think you described it before), then > we indeed need a convenient facility to browse character glyphs. But > that facility should allow to specify additional information, such as > the script name, or block name, or the base character, otherwise you > are likely to give up due to the sheer number of characters to view. I agree that those additional features would make it better. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 14:47:04 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2015 18:47:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39019 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqnId-0006fo-MF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 14:47:04 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:58426 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqnIZ-0006fC-Kc for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 14:47:00 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YqnIY-0003BP-0N; Fri, 08 May 2015 14:46:58 -0400 Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 14:46:58 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <83wq0jpql3.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Fri, 08 May 2015 08:48:24 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <83r3qtr7r3.fsf@gnu.org> <83wq0jpql3.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Are you kidding? Just to see 32 characters' glyphs > > I'd have to type 128 input characters. > No, you need to type much less. A codepoint, if you know it, is at > most 5 characters, I miscalculated. C-x 8 RET codepoint RET is 8 characters (or 9). Thus, to see 32 characters' glyphs that way, I'd need to type between 256 and 288 input characters. > and for name completion, typing something like > C-x 8 RET greek That is a lot less input than the other method, and is sort of usable, but inconvenient. I tried it in that very case. It includes Coptic characters as well as Greek; I don't know why. It also includes many punctuation characters, and letters with diacritics, that are in a different part of Unicode, and are not normal Greek letters. If I could see the glyphs of the area of Unicode which alpha is in, I could easily see the character I want. And when I want to enter some non-ASCII punctuator, if I could see the glyphs of that part of Unicode, it would be easy. I don't want to have to remember their official names. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 16:18:52 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2015 20:18:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39073 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqojT-0000PP-BT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 16:18:51 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:16876) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqojQ-0000P8-JE for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 16:18:49 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t48KIftS017588 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 8 May 2015 20:18:42 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t48KIfrB004243 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 8 May 2015 20:18:41 GMT Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t48KIfWa000401; Fri, 8 May 2015 20:18:41 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 13:18:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <83r3qtr7r3.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83r3qtr7r3.fsf@gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > We could set up a way to test whether a code point can be > > displayed, and skip scripts that can't be displayed. >=20 > Alas, we don't know which cannot be displayed until we've tried and > failed. Where is this try-and-fail done? Is it only in C code, or is there some Lisp function (predicate) that you can call to tell you whether a given char can be displayed in a given (e.g. the current) font. Even if such a predicate would need to try displaying, to find out whether it is possible, this could be useful. It would be good if we could, for example, optionally show only chars that the current font can display. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 20:04:04 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2015 00:04:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39115 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqsFP-0000hd-E8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 20:04:04 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:25822) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqsFM-0000h5-Sk for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 20:04:01 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t4903rMS000987 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 9 May 2015 00:03:54 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t4903rDp003332 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 9 May 2015 00:03:53 GMT Received: from abhmp0014.oracle.com (abhmp0014.oracle.com [141.146.116.20]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t4903rvR003283; Sat, 9 May 2015 00:03:53 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 17:03:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: rms@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <<1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> > <<83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> > <<83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <871tivknbx.fsf_-_@violet.siamics.net>> <> In-Reply-To: <> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) The discussion has gone in a few directions beyond `C-x 8 shorthands'. I understand that Richard would like a help buffer that groups multiple glyphs together in blocks or in categories of various kinds. I don't have that to offer, but maybe this would help in a different way: library `apu.el' provides apropos help for Unicode chars. Command `apropos-unicode' shows you the Unicode chars that match an apropos pattern you specify: a regexp or a space-separated list of words. The chars whose names match are shown in a help buffer, along with the names and code points (decimal and hex). You can keep several such buffers open, for use with different subsets of chars you are interested in. In the help buffer, you can use these keys to act on the char described on the current line: * `RET' or `mouse-2' - see info about it (`C-u C-x =3D' output). * `i' - google for more information about it. * `^' - insert it at point in the buffer where you invoked `apropos-unicode'. * `c' - define a command to insert it that has the same name. E.g. `greek-small-letter-phi'. (You need library `ucs-cmds.el' for this.) * `k' - globally bind a key to insert it. * `l' - locally bind a key to insert it. * `M-w' - copy it to the `kill-ring'. * `M-y' - copy it to the secondary selection. The library is here: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/apu.el. TODO maybe: * Pop-up a glyph enlargement (e.g., by mouseover or key). * Be able to match code points too in the pattern. * Be able to choose chars of a given syntax class or other group. * Add a header line and use it to sort by different columns. * Add an option of patterns to exclude from matches, to exclude things like `TAG' and `VARIATION SELECTOR'. * Be able to easily match a base char. You can do this OK now using a regexp such as ` \(BASE-CHAR \|$\)', but maybe there is a better way. Is there a good way to exclude chars whose glyphs are essentially (apparently) whitespace, e.g., `MUSICAL SYMBOL END TIE'? Is there a way to exclude chars that cannot be shown in the current font? (Asked previously.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 09 03:44:36 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2015 07:44:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39138 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqzR5-0003ct-GK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 03:44:36 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:34588) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YqzR1-0003cb-Qo for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 03:44:33 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NO200500O553200@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 10:44:15 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NO2004BVO5QSW40@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sat, 09 May 2015 10:44:15 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 10:44:30 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: rms@gnu.org Message-id: <83egmqp541.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <83r3qtr7r3.fsf@gnu.org> <83wq0jpql3.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 14:46:58 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > CC: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > Are you kidding? Just to see 32 characters' glyphs > > > I'd have to type 128 input characters. > > > No, you need to type much less. A codepoint, if you know it, is at > > most 5 characters, > > I miscalculated. C-x 8 RET codepoint RET is 8 characters (or 9). > Thus, to see 32 characters' glyphs that way, I'd need to type > between 256 and 288 input characters. If you are not looking for a single specific character by its codepoint, then typing the codepoint makes no sense. > > and for name completion, typing something like > > > C-x 8 RET greek > > That is a lot less input than the other method, and is sort of usable, > but inconvenient. I tried it in that very case. > > It includes Coptic characters as well as Greek; I don't know why. I don't know either. If I type TAB after just "greek", then I see no Coptic characters in completion candidates. What did you type before asking for completion? > It also includes many punctuation characters, and letters with > diacritics, that are in a different part of Unicode, and are not > normal Greek letters. This is simple Emacs completion at work: it brings you every character whose name begins with "GREEK". In any case, when I complete on "greek", I see only punctuation and diacriticals from the same block as alpha, so I don't think we show irrelevant punctuation. We do show some ancient characters from other Greek blocks than the one where alpha lives, but they are not punctuation. As for letters with diacriticals, how would Emacs know that you don't need those? I think the use case where the user looks for characters with diacriticals is much more plausible than when she looks for some simple character like alpha. But if we think that looking for characters "with diacriticals" or "without diacriticals" is an important use case, we could provide that as well, based on the 'decomposition' property of the characters. > If I could see the glyphs of the area of Unicode which alpha is in, I could > easily see the character I want. If you only want letters, you can give a more accurate spec to completion: "C-x 8 RET greek*letter ". (The asterisk is a wildcard character.) That still produces quite a long list, but no symbols, punctuation, or lone diacriticals. Alternatively, you'd need to know the Unicode block in which those characters live, or find it by completing on block names. (This block's name is "Greek and Coptic".) > And when I want to enter some non-ASCII punctuator, if I could see > the glyphs of that part of Unicode, it would be easy. > I don't want to have to remember their official names. Only a small part of (language- and script-agnostic) punctuation characters have their own block. The language-specific punctuation is in the same block as their main characters. We could have a feature which would display punctuation characters, either specific to a language/script or not. Such a feature would need to use [:punct:] regexp (we'd need to extend [:punct:] to use Unicode character properties). Similarly, using [:alpha:] would bring only letters. I hope you now agree that the use case of searching for a character with only some vague idea about its appearance and/or name needs some pretty sophisticated (and overlapping) capabilities for allowing the user to specify what she knows, before showing the possible candidates. I'm not really sure what would be a good UI for such specifications; perhaps something using the widget library a-la Customize, where you can check or uncheck certain options and specify values for non-boolean fields. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 09 03:59:54 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2015 07:59:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39142 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yqzft-0003zy-8s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 03:59:54 -0400 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:40199) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yqzfp-0003zi-5x for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 03:59:50 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NO200I00ORFHS00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 10:59:21 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NO200IDHOUX7NB0@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Sat, 09 May 2015 10:59:21 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 10:59:36 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83bnhup4ev.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <83r3qtr7r3.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: rms@gnu.org, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 13:18:40 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > We could set up a way to test whether a code point can be > > > displayed, and skip scripts that can't be displayed. > > > > Alas, we don't know which cannot be displayed until we've tried and > > failed. > > Where is this try-and-fail done? Is it only in C code, or is > there some Lisp function (predicate) that you can call to tell > you whether a given char can be displayed in a given (e.g. the > current) font. These two are not alternatives, they can (and do) live together. The search for a suitable font is mostly in C, but we do have a capability to test from Lisp whether a given character can be displayed: 'char-displayable-p'. If you are interested in a specific font, you can use 'font-get-glyphs' for a similar info. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 09 04:22:08 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2015 08:22:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39146 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yr01P-0004a4-Hj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 04:22:08 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:36469) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yr01K-0004ZU-8l for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 04:22:04 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NO200100PSYW200@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 11:21:54 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NO20012FPWINF60@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sat, 09 May 2015 11:21:54 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 11:22:09 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <838ucyp3da.fsf@gnu.org> References: <"<1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert"@cs.ucla.edu> <"<83vbg8s3nd.fsf"@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <"<83ioc7rqgy.fsf"@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: rms@gnu.org, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 17:03:53 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org > > I understand that Richard would like a help buffer that groups > multiple glyphs together in blocks or in categories of various kinds. > > I don't have that to offer, but maybe this would help in a different > way: library `apu.el' provides apropos help for Unicode chars. > > Command `apropos-unicode' shows you the Unicode chars that match > an apropos pattern you specify: a regexp or a space-separated list > of words. The chars whose names match are shown in a help buffer, > along with the names and code points (decimal and hex). I hope I've succeeded to explain in my previous messages that just matching the name against a regexp is not enough: you will most of the time get a lot of candidates. IOW, it's not focused enough, and the reason is that the name of a character doesn't tell enough about the character to be able to filter them only based on their names. What we need is selection of candidates based on the character attributes, and their language/script/block. This could, of course, use the completion/apropos infrastructure, but the completion predicates must be smarter, and we should have a suitable UI for the user to specify her partial knowledge of the characters she is after. If you or someone else wants to work on this, I can provide advice as to how to use Unicode character properties for such filtering. > * Add an option of patterns to exclude from matches, to exclude > things like `TAG' and `VARIATION SELECTOR'. The UI cannot be in these technical terms, because the user will most probably fail to understand what that means for the search results. E.g., it's quite probable that someone who wants an emoji characters _will_ want the VARIATION SELECTOR included, but how many users will understand that excluding it will not allow them to specify emoji style of certain characters? > * Be able to easily match a base char. You can do this OK now > using a regexp such as ` \(BASE-CHAR \|$\)', but maybe there > is a better way. I suggested the Custom-style interface using widgets. > Is there a good way to exclude chars whose glyphs are essentially > (apparently) whitespace, e.g., `MUSICAL SYMBOL END TIE'? I'm not sure "mostly whitespace" is a good specification for those. I suppose someone who wants musical symbols will want this one as well. > Is there a way to exclude chars that cannot be shown in the current > font? (Asked previously.) Answered previously. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 09 10:17:20 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2015 14:17:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39539 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yr5ZA-0006BK-7V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 10:17:20 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:57850 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yr5Z8-0006BC-Md for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 10:17:19 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yr5Z5-0003Zh-RX; Sat, 09 May 2015 10:17:16 -0400 Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 10:17:15 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <83egmqp541.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sat, 09 May 2015 10:44:30 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <83r3qtr7r3.fsf@gnu.org> <83wq0jpql3.fsf@gnu.org> <83egmqp541.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > That is a lot less input than the other method, and is sort of usable, > > but inconvenient. I tried it in that very case. > > > > It includes Coptic characters as well as Greek; I don't know why. > I don't know either. If I type TAB after just "greek", then I see no > Coptic characters in completion candidates. What did you type before > asking for completion? I typed C-x 8 RET greek TAB TAB. All the NAMES that appear start with "Greek", but when I inserted GREEK CAPITAL LETTER HORI and examined it with C-u C-x =, it said name: COPTIC CAPITAL LETTER HORI old-name: GREEK CAPITAL LETTER HORI I didn't notice the old-name field the previous time. I suppose that explains why it was included in that completion table. Anyway that completion list is over 440 lines long, and not very useful. > > It also includes many punctuation characters, and letters with > > diacritics, that are in a different part of Unicode, and are not > > normal Greek letters. > This is simple Emacs completion at work: it brings you every character > whose name begins with "GREEK". Do you think I don't know that? _Why_ it does what it does is not the issue. The only pertinent point is that that it isn't a convenient way to do what I want to do. > As for letters with diacriticals, how would Emacs know that you don't > need those? That question is spurious. Remember, I don't want to enter a character name at all. I want to see all the glyphs. Someone else suggested that C-x 8 RET might be a convenient alternate method. I am explaining why it isn't. If I had the feature I want, I would see the segment including the usual Greek letters, and the far more numerous diacriticalized ones would not be there (because they come later in Unicode). > If you only want letters, you can give a more accurate spec to > completion: "C-x 8 RET greek*letter ". (The asterisk is a > wildcard character.) That still produces quite a long list, Indeed, it is still inconvenient. > I hope you now agree that the use case of searching for a character > with only some vague idea about its appearance and/or name needs some > pretty sophisticated (and overlapping) capabilities for allowing the > user to specify what she knows, before showing the possible > candidates. We seem to be totally miscommunicating. I DON'T WANT to search for them by name. I never asked for that. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 09 10:36:49 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2015 14:36:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39558 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yr5s0-0006gF-P2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 10:36:49 -0400 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:39678) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yr5ry-0006g0-Da for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 10:36:47 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NO300J00770PS00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 May 2015 17:36:23 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NO300JBA78NK9A0@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Sat, 09 May 2015 17:36:23 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 17:36:39 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: rms@gnu.org Message-id: <83k2whom14.fsf@gnu.org> References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <83vbg8s3nd.fsf@gnu.org> <87383cmgpk.fsf@violet.siamics.net> <83ioc7rqgy.fsf@gnu.org> <83r3qtr7r3.fsf@gnu.org> <83wq0jpql3.fsf@gnu.org> <83egmqp541.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 10:17:15 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > CC: ivan@siamics.net, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org > > I typed C-x 8 RET greek TAB TAB. > > All the NAMES that appear start with "Greek", but when I inserted > GREEK CAPITAL LETTER HORI and examined it with C-u C-x =, > it said > > name: COPTIC CAPITAL LETTER HORI > old-name: GREEK CAPITAL LETTER HORI > > I didn't notice the old-name field the previous time. I suppose that > explains why it was included in that completion table. Yes. Greek and Coptic characters share the same Unicode block. > > > It also includes many punctuation characters, and letters with > > > diacritics, that are in a different part of Unicode, and are not > > > normal Greek letters. > > > This is simple Emacs completion at work: it brings you every character > > whose name begins with "GREEK". > > Do you think I don't know that? Do you think I don't know you know? You asked me some questions that you should be sure I knew also, and yet I didn't react like that. I find your attitude in this thread unnecessarily offensive. > > I hope you now agree that the use case of searching for a character > > with only some vague idea about its appearance and/or name needs some > > pretty sophisticated (and overlapping) capabilities for allowing the > > user to specify what she knows, before showing the possible > > candidates. > > We seem to be totally miscommunicating. I DON'T WANT to search for > them by name. I never asked for that. Where did I mentioned search by name? I didn't, because I really don't think it's convenient enough. It's what we have now, but it is not what I think should be the method of looking up an unknown character. But your idea of showing dozens or hundreds of characters isn't workable, either. Like I wrote elsewhere, we need a way for the user to specify what she knows, and then show the characters that match the spec. The specification could include one or more of the following: . Script name . Language name . Unicode block name . Character class (alphabetical, numerical, punctuation, etc.) . Base character . With/without diacriticals From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 10 20:52:02 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2015 00:52:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40327 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrbwu-00005u-VS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 20:52:01 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:33991) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrbws-00005e-8M for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 20:51:59 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9560E39E801F; Sun, 10 May 2015 17:51:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CcvujD4oypKZ; Sun, 10 May 2015 17:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D266639E801E; Sun, 10 May 2015 17:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <554FFD26.7030608@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 17:51:50 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> <554B19FC.70602@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040502060108040304000909" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: Ivan Shmakov , 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040502060108040304000909 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stefan Monnier wrote: > I'm not sure exactly what he wanted to say, but it sounds to me like > it's going in the same direction as my earlier request to replace the > hard-coded table by code that auto-generates the cases. > There is already similar code in latin-ltx.el (written by yours truly). OK, thanks, in that case this will need some thinking, since the code in latin-ltx.el suffers from the same problems I mentioned in : from a user's point of view the supported characters are a haphazard list. E.g., it adds some chars for Pinyin tones but not others. Partly the problem is that it adds "easy" Latin letters like ȳ even though nobody uses them, but not "hard" ones like ǚ even though they're actually used on occasion. Fixing this will take some thinking, because we'll need to devise ways to type the "hard" Latin letters. I suppose latin-ltx and iso-transl should use similar approaches here. In the meantime, though, there is a need to type non-Latin punctuation like dashes and quotation marks. That part of the patch seems relatively independent of the Latin-letter issue, so I installed the attached. I hope to look into the Latin-letter issue later. --------------040502060108040304000909 Content-Type: text/x-patch; name="0001-C-x-8-shorthands-for-curved-quotes-Euro-etc.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-C-x-8-shorthands-for-curved-quotes-Euro-etc.patch" >From 86f659db4917c40238ec73a9998b0ff2d9d3de6a Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Paul Eggert Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 17:24:05 -0700 Subject: [PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Although C-x 8 lets you insert arbitrary Unicode characters, it's awkward to use this to insert commonly used symbols such as curved quotes, the Euro symbol, etc. This patch adds simpler sequences for characters commonly found in English text and in basic math. For example, assuming the Alt key works on your keyboard and iso-transl is loaded, one can now type "A-[" instead of "A-RET LEFT SIN TAB RET" to get the character "‘" (U+2018 LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK). (Bug#20499) * doc/emacs/mule.texi (Unibyte Mode): A few other printing characters now work too. * etc/NEWS: Document this. * lisp/international/iso-transl.el (iso-transl-char-map): Also support the following characters: ‐ ‑ ‒ – — ― ‘ ’ “ ” † ‡ • ′ ″ € № ← → ↔ − ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ --- doc/emacs/mule.texi | 4 ++-- etc/NEWS | 3 +++ lisp/international/iso-transl.el | 31 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++- 3 files changed, 35 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-) diff --git a/doc/emacs/mule.texi b/doc/emacs/mule.texi index de381df..d929e09 100644 --- a/doc/emacs/mule.texi +++ b/doc/emacs/mule.texi @@ -1660,8 +1660,8 @@ characters present directly on the keyboard or using @key{Compose} or @cindex compose character @cindex dead character @item -For Latin-1 only, you can use the key @kbd{C-x 8} as a ``compose -character'' prefix for entry of non-@acronym{ASCII} Latin-1 printing +You can use the key @kbd{C-x 8} as a ``compose character'' prefix for +entry of non-@acronym{ASCII} Latin-1 and a few other printing characters. @kbd{C-x 8} is good for insertion (in the minibuffer as well as other buffers), for searching, and in any other context where a key sequence is allowed. diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS index 844181c..aa6a257 100644 --- a/etc/NEWS +++ b/etc/NEWS @@ -213,6 +213,9 @@ successive char insertions. ** Unicode names entered via C-x 8 RET now use substring completion by default. +** C-x 8 now has shorthands for these chars: ‐ ‑ ‒ – — ― ‘ ’ “ ” † ‡ • ′ ″ +€ № ← → ↔ − ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥. As before, you can type C-x 8 C-h to list shorthands. + ** New minor mode global-eldoc-mode is enabled by default. ** Emacs now supports "bracketed paste mode" when running on a terminal diff --git a/lisp/international/iso-transl.el b/lisp/international/iso-transl.el index 73bcae0..e9fb009 100644 --- a/lisp/international/iso-transl.el +++ b/lisp/international/iso-transl.el @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input definitions for ISO 8859-1 -*- coding: utf-8 -*- +;;; iso-transl.el --- keyboard input for ISO 10646 chars -*- coding: utf-8 -*- ;; Copyright (C) 1987, 1993-1999, 2001-2015 Free Software Foundation, ;; Inc. @@ -36,6 +36,10 @@ ;; to make all of the Alt keys autoload, and it is not clear ;; that the dead accent keys SHOULD autoload this package. +;; This package supports all characters defined by ISO 8859-1, along +;; with a few other ISO 10646 characters commonly used in English and +;; basic math. + ;;; Code: ;;; Provide some binding for startup: @@ -192,6 +196,31 @@ ("~o" . [?õ]) ("~t" . [?þ]) ("~~" . [?¬]) + ("_h" . [?‐]) + ("_H" . [?‑]) + ("_f" . [?‒]) + ("_n" . [?–]) + ("_m" . [?—]) + ("_q" . [?―]) + ("[" . [?‘]) + ("]" . [?’]) + ("{" . [?“]) + ("}" . [?”]) + ("1+" . [?†]) + ("2+" . [?‡]) + ("**" . [?•]) + ("*'" . [?′]) + ("*\"" . [?″]) + ("*E" . [?€]) + ("No" . [?№]) + ("a<" . [?←]) + ("a>" . [?→]) + ("a=" . [?↔]) + ("_-" . [?−]) + ("~=" . [?≈]) + ("/=" . [?≠]) + ("_<" . [?≤]) + ("_>" . [?≥]) ("' " . "'") ("` " . "`") ("\" " . "\"") -- 2.1.0 --------------040502060108040304000909-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 10 21:28:27 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2015 01:28:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40350 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrcWA-0000xh-2g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 21:28:26 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:34935) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrcW8-0000xX-Fp for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 21:28:25 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B225139E801F; Sun, 10 May 2015 18:28:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fd6Cl+Srbnh6; Sun, 10 May 2015 18:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D3B0939E801E; Sun, 10 May 2015 18:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 18:28:17 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, , Euro, etc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: Richard Stallman , 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > your idea of showing dozens or hundreds of characters isn't > workable, either. It sounds workable to me, as I've used similar interfaces elsewhere, and they work reasonably well. They're not as good as an input method if you're an expert in the method, but they're much better than nothing when you're a non-expert and don't have the time to learn an input method but just want to enter a few unusual characters. For example, if I visit English Wikipedia page for Emacs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs and push the "Edit" button, I'll get to this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Emacs&action=edit which gives me a list of buttons for inserting any of "– — ° ′ ″ ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ ± − × ÷ ← → · §", which I can just push directly to insert the corresponding character. Or I can push the "Latin" button and then insert any of: A a Á á À à  â Ä ä Ǎ ǎ Ă ă Ā ā à ã Å å Ą ą Æ æ Ǣ ǣ B b C c Ć ć Ċ ċ Ĉ ĉ Č č Ç ç D d Ď ď Đ đ Ḍ ḍ Ð ð E e É é È è Ė ė Ê ê Ë ë Ě ě Ĕ ĕ Ē ē Ẽ ẽ Ę ę Ẹ ẹ Ɛ ɛ Ǝ ǝ Ə ə F f G g Ġ ġ Ĝ ĝ Ğ ğ Ģ ģ H h Ĥ ĥ Ħ ħ Ḥ ḥ I i İ ı Í í Ì ì Î î Ï ï Ǐ ǐ Ĭ ĭ Ī ī Ĩ ĩ Į į Ị   ị J j Ĵ ĵ K k Ķ ķ L l Ĺ ĺ Ŀ ŀ Ľ ľ Ļ ļ Ł ł Ḷ ḷ Ḹ ḹ M m Ṃ ṃ N n Ń ń Ň ň Ñ ñ Ņ ņ Ṇ ṇ Ŋ ŋ O o Ó ó Ò ò Ô ô Ö ö Ǒ ǒ Ŏ ŏ Ō ō Õ õ Ǫ ǫ Ọ ọ Ő ő Ø ø Œ œ Ɔ ɔ P p Q q R r Ŕ ŕ Ř ř Ŗ ŗ Ṛ ṛ Ṝ ṝ S s Ś ś Ŝ ŝ Š š Ş ş Ș ș Ṣ ṣ ß T t Ť ť Ţ ţ Ț ț Ṭ ṭ Þ þ U u Ú ú Ù ù Û û Ü ü Ǔ ǔ Ŭ ŭ Ū ū Ũ ũ Ů ů Ų ų Ụ ụ Ű ű Ǘ ǘ Ǜ ǜ Ǚ ǚ Ǖ ǖ V v W w Ŵ ŵ X x Y y Ý ý Ŷ ŷ Ÿ ÿ Ỹ ỹ Ȳ ȳ Z z Ź ź Ż ż Ž ž ß Ð ð Þ þ Ŋ ŋ Ə ə This is all easy to do even if I don't remember the editing interface, and unlike Emacs's C-x 8 it handles Pinyin tones, dotless i, etc., etc. This seems to be the sort of thing that RMS is asking for, and I don't see why it wouldn't work for Emacs. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 10 21:55:46 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2015 01:55:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40356 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrcwa-0001eW-SN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 21:55:45 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:35711) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrcwX-0001eI-DZ for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 21:55:42 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C4439E801F; Sun, 10 May 2015 18:55:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ph85TYXrLXTc; Sun, 10 May 2015 18:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-100-32-155-148.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [100.32.155.148]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 07CBB39E801E; Sun, 10 May 2015 18:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55500C16.4070607@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 18:55:34 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ivan Shmakov Subject: Re: bug#20499: C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > It just iterates over the range given (or U+00A8 through U+02AF > by default) and maps “LATIN + COMBINING” decompositions to > 'iso-transl entries. Thanks for the explanation. > But are we actually limited to two-character abbreviations only? > Why not allow for, say, C-x 8 " ' u? We can do that, but only if the combining prefixes are distinct from the letters themselves. My previous proposal didn't do that, e.g., it used "u" for breve, which would make things like "C-x 8 , u E" ambiguous (is that u with a cedilla followed by plain E, or E with a cedilla and breve?). So I guess more thought is needed. PS. about patches and attachments: > However, given that ‘text/x-patch’ is not a /registered/ MIME > type, I believe the above does not apply. Once one starts using x-* types anything goes, is my impression. > If Thunderbird /knows/ the encoding (“character set”) of the > contents of the MIME part, It doesn't, which is why Thunderbird doesn't say. Regardless of what one's opinion of what the standard says or should say, it's pretty clear that these sorts of attachments are often sent and generally work; if they don't work with Gnus then that's probably a Gnus bug report worth filing. The Gnus manual says one should report a bug with "M-x gnus-bug". I tried that, but it complained "Gnus has been shut down", so I gave up. Since you're a Gnus user, I hope you can take on the task of filing a bug report. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 10 22:25:50 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2015 02:25:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40362 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrdPh-0002Nj-ER for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 22:25:49 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:61585) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrdPe-0002NT-W5 for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 10 May 2015 22:25:47 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Aj0GAGvvdVRFpYts/2dsb2JhbAA3DoFFoRxTgQiBdQEBBAFWIwULCzQSFBgNJIgTohGLdS5KAQIBAoIhgR0DAxqDUwSjY4QFUw X-IPAS-Result: Aj0GAGvvdVRFpYts/2dsb2JhbAA3DoFFoRxTgQiBdQEBBAFWIwULCzQSFBgNJIgTohGLdS5KAQIBAoIhgR0DAxqDUwSjY4QFUw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,557,1422939600"; d="scan'208";a="119102771" Received: from 69-165-139-108.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO fmsmemgm.homelinux.net) ([69.165.139.108]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 May 2015 22:25:41 -0400 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 1280EAE36F; Sun, 10 May 2015 22:25:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, Euro, etc. Message-ID: References: <1430701990-31993-1-git-send-email-eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <5547BD19.1010608@cs.ucla.edu> <55485D27.2010901@cs.ucla.edu> <554B19FC.70602@cs.ucla.edu> <554FFD26.7030608@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 22:25:41 -0400 In-Reply-To: <554FFD26.7030608@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Sun, 10 May 2015 17:51:50 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: Ivan Shmakov , 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > Fixing this will take some thinking, because we'll need to devise ways to > type the "hard" Latin letters. Indeed. > I suppose latin-ltx and iso-transl should use similar approaches here. Of course, in my ideal world, iso-transl and latin-ltx should not just use similar approaches, but C-x 8 should basically work like a kind of "enable TeX input method just for this char, and pre-insert \". Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 11 10:55:44 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2015 14:55:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41113 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrp7O-0001TB-C2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 10:55:43 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:43016) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrp7K-0001Sv-Gw for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 10:55:40 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NO600800XEQA900@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 17:55:09 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NO6008KYXFW7310@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Mon, 11 May 2015 17:55:09 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 17:54:58 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, , Euro, etc. In-reply-to: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Paul Eggert Message-id: <83pp67maf1.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: rms@gnu.org, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 18:28:17 -0700 > From: Paul Eggert > CC: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman > > your idea of showing dozens or hundreds of characters isn't > workable, either. > > It sounds workable to me, as I've used similar interfaces elsewhere, and they work reasonably well. They're not as good as an input method if you're an expert in the method, but they're much better than nothing when you're a non-expert and don't have the time to learn an input method but just want to enter a few unusual characters. At least the last part of this thread was about _finding_ the character, if you have only partial information about it. My comment above was about that use case, and that use case only. You seem to be talking about a different use case: when the user already knows quite well which character she wants. > For example, if I visit English Wikipedia page for Emacs: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs > > and push the "Edit" button, I'll get to this page: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Emacs&action=edit > > which gives me a list of buttons for inserting any of "– — ° ′ ″ ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ ± − × ÷ ← → · §", which I can just push directly to insert the corresponding character. This is the case where you know a very small subset of characters from which to choose. But even here, how do you know whether you need '–', '—', or '−'? Or maybe you want '⸺' or even '⸻' instead (they are not shown in the list offered by Wikipedia)? Likewise, there are many more quote characters than the above offers. In general, punctuation characters fill 2 full blocks of codepoints, so finding the one you need is more than just selecting out of less than 20 characters someone decided for you they are all you'll need. > Or I can push the "Latin" button and then insert any of: > > A a Á á À à  â Ä ä Ǎ ǎ Ă ă Ā ā à ã Å å Ą ą Æ æ Ǣ ǣ B b C c Ć ć Ċ ċ Ĉ ĉ Č č Ç ç D d Ď ď Đ đ Ḍ ḍ Ð ð E e É é È è Ė ė Ê ê Ë ë Ě ě Ĕ ĕ Ē ē Ẽ ẽ Ę ę Ẹ ẹ Ɛ ɛ Ǝ ǝ Ə ə F f G g Ġ ġ Ĝ ĝ Ğ ğ Ģ ģ H h Ĥ ĥ Ħ ħ Ḥ ḥ I i İ ı Í í Ì ì Î î Ï ï Ǐ ǐ Ĭ ĭ Ī ī Ĩ ĩ Į į Ị   ị J j Ĵ ĵ K k Ķ ķ L l Ĺ ĺ Ŀ ŀ Ľ ľ Ļ ļ Ł ł Ḷ ḷ Ḹ ḹ M m Ṃ ṃ N n Ń ń Ň ň Ñ ñ Ņ ņ Ṇ ṇ Ŋ ŋ O o Ó ó Ò ò Ô ô Ö ö Ǒ ǒ Ŏ ŏ Ō ō Õ õ Ǫ ǫ Ọ ọ Ő ő Ø ø Œ œ Ɔ ɔ P p Q q R r Ŕ ŕ Ř ř Ŗ ŗ Ṛ ṛ Ṝ ṝ S s Ś ś Ŝ ŝ Š š Ş ş Ș ș Ṣ ṣ ß T t Ť ť Ţ ţ Ț ț Ṭ ṭ Þ þ U u Ú ú Ù ù Û û Ü ü Ǔ ǔ Ŭ ŭ Ū ū Ũ ũ Ů ů Ų ų Ụ ụ Ű ű Ǘ ǘ Ǜ ǜ Ǚ ǚ Ǖ ǖ V v W w Ŵ ŵ X x Y y Ý ý Ŷ ŷ Ÿ ÿ Ỹ ỹ Ȳ ȳ Z z Ź ź Ż ż Ž ž ß Ð ð Þ þ Ŋ ŋ Ə ə Again, this is a different use case: you need already to know your character is one of the "Latin" characters. And they cheat: what you see is a subset of the characters that someone decided for you they are all you need. (For example, "Math and logic" has ∫, ∬, and ∭, but not ⨌; "Latin" lacks the entire Latin Extended-B, -C, -D, and Latin Extended Additional blocks; etc.) IOW, the above selection is highly filtered using some unspecified rules, and therefore it at best emulates a use case where the user has a pretty good knowledge about what she wants to find. And still, you need to select out of about 300 characters. How's that workable, except in very simple use cases? > This is all easy to do even if I don't remember the editing interface, and unlike Emacs's C-x 8 it handles Pinyin tones, dotless i, etc., etc. This seems to be the sort of thing that RMS is asking for, and I don't see why it wouldn't work for Emacs. It would work for Emacs. The question is, would it be convenient for users? We should be able to do better than the example you show, i.e. allow the user to define what she knows about the character she is looking for, and then present the characters matching that description. (I presented earlier the provisional list of attributes I think will be useful as part of such a description.) We definitely shouldn't assume we know better than the user which characters she might or might not want the way Wikipedia does. And we should allow the users to leverage more accurate information, if they have it. For example, if you know that the character you are looking for is some form of a Latin 'a', then we could present only those (there are 36 of them in the current UCD). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 11 11:52:48 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2015 15:52:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41160 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrq0e-0002rr-0H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:52:48 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:63986) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrq0c-0002rf-6v for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:52:46 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiQFAGvvdVRFpYts/2dsb2JhbAA3gVODDp5hgQiBdQEBBAEjMyMFCwsaAhgOAgIUGA0kiBOaKYdogS+KRwIKAhQGAQIJBgUQCAICAgMODAODPgMdgj2BFgSjY4RY X-IPAS-Result: AiQFAGvvdVRFpYts/2dsb2JhbAA3gVODDp5hgQiBdQEBBAEjMyMFCwsaAhgOAgIUGA0kiBOaKYdogS+KRwIKAhQGAQIJBgUQCAICAgMODAODPgMdgj2BFgSjY4RY X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.11,557,1422939600"; d="scan'208";a="119173782" Received: from 69-165-139-108.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.165.139.108]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 May 2015 11:52:41 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 672F53450; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:52:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, , Euro, etc. Message-ID: References: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> <83pp67maf1.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:52:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83pp67maf1.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 11 May 2015 17:54:58 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: Paul Eggert , rms@gnu.org, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > IOW, the above selection is highly filtered using some unspecified > rules, and therefore it at best emulates a use case where the user has > a pretty good knowledge about what she wants to find. And still, you > need to select out of about 300 characters. > How's that workable, except in very simple use cases? It's workable in the following way: - first time around, you'll have to scan all those chars, which will take a little while. - second time around you'll also have to scan them, but it will take a bit less time. - ... - Nth time around, you'll either know more or less where the char is so you don't need to scan all those chars any more, or you'll have learned some other way to insert the char. That's what I do every once in a while using the symbols.dvi document, looking for how to enter some funny-looking math symbols in LaTeX. I generally have no clue whatsoever how the symbol might be called when I do such searches. And I agree that further refinement (such as restricting the display to those glyphs that have an "e" in them, which would include all the weirdly accented forms of "e" and probably the upper case forms as well) would be a nice addition. =20=20 E.g. it would be great to be able to say "it's char that has a > in its glyph" and then be presented with things like =E2=89=A5, right angle bracke= ts, right arrows, ... Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 11 12:17:25 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2015 16:17:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41172 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrqOS-0003Sq-Mr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 12:17:25 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:47956) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrqOP-0003Sb-Oa for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 12:17:22 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NO70090015KYE00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 19:16:24 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NO7009SW17CVL10@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Mon, 11 May 2015 19:16:24 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 19:16:14 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, , Euro, etc. In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Stefan Monnier Message-id: <833833m6nl.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> <83pp67maf1.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: Paul Eggert , rms@gnu.org, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:52:40 -0400 > > > IOW, the above selection is highly filtered using some unspecified > > rules, and therefore it at best emulates a use case where the user has > > a pretty good knowledge about what she wants to find. And still, you > > need to select out of about 300 characters. > > > How's that workable, except in very simple use cases? > > It's workable in the following way: > - first time around, you'll have to scan all those chars, which will > take a little while. > - second time around you'll also have to scan them, but it will take > a bit less time. > - ... > - Nth time around, you'll either know more or less where the char is so > you don't need to scan all those chars any more, or you'll have > learned some other way to insert the char. > > That's what I do every once in a while using the symbols.dvi document, > looking for how to enter some funny-looking math symbols in LaTeX. I admire your patience. When I need to do this, I generally give up in despair very quickly. And unless I need the same character over and over again, my Nth time looks very similar to my first. > And I agree that further refinement (such as restricting the display to > those glyphs that have an "e" in them, which would include all the > weirdly accented forms of "e" and probably the upper case forms as > well) would be a nice addition. I can try writing a back-end (that thing that takes a list of criteria and returns a list of codepoints or ranges to display) for this, if someone will then add a UI for the user to specify the constraints and for display of the results. > E.g. it would be great to be able to say "it's char that has a > in its > glyph" and then be presented with things like ≥, right angle brackets, > right arrows, ... Yep. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 11 14:27:39 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2015 18:27:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41221 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrsQU-0006Yf-NX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:27:39 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:33591 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YrsQT-0006YV-5I for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:27:37 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YrsQS-0001NM-5P; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:27:36 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 14:27:36 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Paul Eggert In-reply-to: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> (message from Paul Eggert on Sun, 10 May 2015 18:28:17 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, , Euro, etc. References: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: eliz@gnu.org, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Or I can push the "Latin" button and then insert any of: Indeed, that is what I'd like. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 11 14:48:49 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2015 18:48:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41226 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrskz-00075x-FD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:48:49 -0400 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:43608) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrskw-00075h-PT for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:48:47 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D59A6000C; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:48:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C1lcdD+8yOCt; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 61092A6000B; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5550F984.70103@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:48:36 -0700 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, , Euro, etc. References: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> <83pp67maf1.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83pp67maf1.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: rms@gnu.org, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) On 05/11/2015 07:54 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > IOW, the above selection is highly filtered using some unspecified rules Sure, and I expect that what Wikipedia has done is seen which characters get used the most, give a trivial UI for the most-commonly used dozen or so non-ASCII characters, a simple UI for the most-commonly used few-hundred non-ASCII characters, and a more-complex UI for the rest. It's a reasonable design approach. > For example, if you know that the character you are looking for is > some form of a Latin 'a', then we could present only those (there are > 36 of them in the current UCD). That all sounds good, for users who know that there's a way to get that list of "A"-like characters. It would be good also to cater to people who are less expert, and who only know something simple like "type the Alt-FOO key if you want to type weird characters". Perhaps a top-level menu that gives a dozen or so of the most-common characters and also says "type an "A" to get the "A"-like letters", and "press this button to get Greek", etc. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 11 15:11:15 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2015 19:11:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41242 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrt6g-0007eZ-KG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 15:11:15 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:46282) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yrt6e-0007eK-3t for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 15:11:13 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NO700B0094W8I00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2015 22:11:00 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NO700BSG9AB6S20@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Mon, 11 May 2015 22:11:00 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 22:10:49 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, , Euro, etc. In-reply-to: <5550F984.70103@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Paul Eggert Message-id: <83sib3kk06.fsf@gnu.org> References: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> <83pp67maf1.fsf@gnu.org> <5550F984.70103@cs.ucla.edu> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: rms@gnu.org, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:48:36 -0700 > From: Paul Eggert > CC: 20499@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org > > On 05/11/2015 07:54 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > IOW, the above selection is highly filtered using some unspecified rules > > Sure, and I expect that what Wikipedia has done is seen which characters > get used the most, give a trivial UI for the most-commonly used dozen or > so non-ASCII characters, a simple UI for the most-commonly used > few-hundred non-ASCII characters, and a more-complex UI for the rest. > It's a reasonable design approach. But it's not Emacsy, not to my palate. Emacs never arbitrarily limits the user without offering some ways to lift the limits. > > For example, if you know that the character you are looking for is > > some form of a Latin 'a', then we could present only those (there are > > 36 of them in the current UCD). > > That all sounds good, for users who know that there's a way to get that > list of "A"-like characters. The way I envision it, the UI to specify the characters you are looking for will have a widget named "Looks like ..." or "Base character", and users who are looking for 'a' with some diacriticals will type "a" there. > Perhaps a top-level menu that gives a dozen or so of the most-common > characters I think "most-common characters" can only be reasonably offered once the user supplied a language or script. Most-common Latin characters are different from most-common Cyrillic characters or Greek or Hebrew or Math symbols. > and also says "type an "A" to get the "A"-like letters", and "press > this button to get Greek", etc. I don't think a single button will do. At least it should be possible to press both "Greek" and "with/without diacriticals", and possibly also other constraints, like with/without punctuation. IOW, we need to let users specify several constraints, and display whatever matches them. If they only specify the script, like "Latin", they will see the list similar to what you presented, perhaps in several parts with a "more" button. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 04:56:24 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2015 08:56:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41636 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ys5zD-00065D-4F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2015 04:56:23 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:49184 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ys5zA-000654-TL for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2015 04:56:21 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Ys5zA-0005ON-8H; Tue, 12 May 2015 04:56:20 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 04:56:20 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <83pp67maf1.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Mon, 11 May 2015 17:54:58 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, , Euro, etc. References: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> <83pp67maf1.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > At least the last part of this thread was about _finding_ the > character, if you have only partial information about it. My comment > above was about that use case, and that use case only. You seem to be > talking about a different use case: when the user already knows quite > well which character she wants. This seems like a misunderstanding about the word "find". In general I know what the character looks like. I expect I would spot it immediately if I saw it. For instance, it wouldn't be hard to recognize the dotless i in a list of lowercase non-ASCII letters. Especially if it is in some sort of order. I'm afraid you've been looking for a solution to some problem that I wasn't talking about. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 12:14:51 2015 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2015 16:14:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42569 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YsCpX-0003J8-1D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2015 12:14:51 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:55068) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YsCpU-0003Iu-Hk for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2015 12:14:49 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NO800M00VCD1H00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 20499@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2015 19:13:45 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NO800L4YVQWQ5B0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Tue, 12 May 2015 19:13:45 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 19:13:37 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, , Euro, etc. In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: rms@gnu.org Message-id: <83oalplqoe.fsf@gnu.org> References: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> <83pp67maf1.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 04:56:20 -0400 > From: Richard Stallman > CC: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org > > > At least the last part of this thread was about _finding_ the > > character, if you have only partial information about it. My comment > > above was about that use case, and that use case only. You seem to be > > talking about a different use case: when the user already knows quite > > well which character she wants. > > This seems like a misunderstanding about the word "find". I don't think so. > In general I know what the character looks like. > I expect I would spot it immediately if I saw it. > For instance, it wouldn't be hard to recognize the dotless i > in a list of lowercase non-ASCII letters. I presume that when you say "non-ASCII" you really mean "non-ASCII Latin", since the number of lowercase non-ASCII characters is rather large (about 1400, if I'm not mistaken). There are 581 characters in the Unicode database that are lowercase non-ASCII Latin letters. While it's possible to go through this long list looking for the one character you are after, it's hardly convenient or efficient, IMO. So I think IWBNI Emacs could help the user by showing less than this amount. For example, if you know it's some form of i, IWBNI Emacs allowed you to say that, and be presented only with characters which match that description (there are only 29 of them). > Especially if it is in some sort of order. The order in which to present the characters is also not trivial. The easiest one is the order of codepoints, but I presume it would be better to group characters by their base character, i.e. all forms of i together. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 26 11:12:40 2019 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Jun 2019 15:12:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36796 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hg9bD-00047t-TZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2019 11:12:40 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:50630) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hg9bB-00047h-05; Wed, 26 Jun 2019 11:12:38 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=stories) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hg9b6-00017z-53; Wed, 26 Jun 2019 17:12:34 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, , Euro, etc. References: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> <83pp67maf1.fsf@gnu.org> <83oalplqoe.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 17:12:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83oalplqoe.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 12 May 2015 19:13:37 +0300") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: This bug report thread is huge. As far as I can tell, shorthands for Euro etc was added (just look: C-x 8 * E => €; didn't know about that), but I'm not sure whether there's anything remaining to be [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 16082@debbugs.gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This bug report thread is huge. As far as I can tell, shorthands for Euro etc was added (just look: C-x 8 * E =3D> =E2=82=AC; didn't know about = that), but I'm not sure whether there's anything remaining to be done here. (The last message here is four years old.) --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 13 04:49:17 2020 Received: (at 20499) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Aug 2020 08:49:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46821 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k68vE-0008LC-WA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 04:49:17 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:54486) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k68vD-0008Kt-I4; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 04:49:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=0++MxUHfDeSYI0Jz/+p1iI/goIX9WrhGFtCEAS92EXs=; b=WVocrN0dcCtOqhkr7DBXkz/P/Q VBLM3Wt6hOGmiPt1h3C9ndcmW+fr/O/XllcNodNmOyHLVFvql5UJbtMH/IuACfR5/gA+/JAHjYRWG E0E951mcMcVHLhgyUPiHHomWkWHsuOUgx2Z2wqqUtLOw1M3cTcslPL/qfnjWq0oOxE04=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k68v4-0004Ae-N3; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:49:09 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#20499: [PROPOSED PATCH] C-x 8 shorthands for curved quotes, , Euro, etc. References: <555005B1.6060608@cs.ucla.edu> <83pp67maf1.fsf@gnu.org> <83oalplqoe.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:49:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Wed, 26 Jun 2019 17:12:31 +0200") Message-ID: <87r1sbgcce.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > This bug report thread is huge. As far as I can tell, shorthands for > Euro etc was added (just look: C-x 8 * E => €; didn't know about that), > but I'm not sure whether there's anything remaining [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 20499 Cc: 16082@debbugs.gnu.org, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, 20499@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > This bug report thread is huge. As far as I can tell, shorthands for > Euro etc was added (just look: C-x 8 * E =3D> =E2=82=AC; didn't know abou= t that), > but I'm not sure whether there's anything remaining to be done here. > (The last message here is four years old.) And this was a year ago, with no further comments, so I'm closing this bug report. If there's anything further to do in this bug report, please reopen. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 13 04:49:22 2020 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Aug 2020 08:49:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46826 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k68vK-0008La-Ht for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 04:49:22 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:54500) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k68vI-0008L2-QQ for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 04:49:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=zJzq6D3xg8v8JV6ZQn3L0l5blEwxgd2U8HsX2B8lCpw=; b=s4nUcrw+ClqnAs5mGP6ynMvDq2 dfS9oyXQOv5boD3uO35YfgZhve6k/L6idVfV8eptQopVo02PBS+JNr/yMlc4DTOZQym7miKPtZAx2 9NgLQkx3g8sRgbNg5LZEfGIBooe5m4lwHn7Ec8a0/FkO5rn/DeHbjL/cBJ0IP6ic5SCQ=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k68vB-0004Ar-1y for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:49:15 +0200 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:49:11 +0200 Message-Id: <87pn7vgcc8.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #20499 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 20499 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) close 20499 quit From unknown Mon Aug 18 14:21:03 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:24:14 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator