From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 18:03:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.142583776932500 (code B ref -1); Sun, 08 Mar 2015 18:03:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2015 18:02:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39681 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUfXM-0008S8-DU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:02:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:39874) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUfXK-0008Rq-2j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:02:46 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YUfXD-0007E1-SN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:02:40 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:48120) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YUfXD-0007Dx-Q2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:02:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41587) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YUfXC-0002Fa-R3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:02:39 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YUfX8-0007Cr-L9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:02:38 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:39582) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YUfX8-0007Cn-Cx for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:02:34 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t28I2W2L007846 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 8 Mar 2015 18:02:33 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t28I2W7I007228 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 8 Mar 2015 18:02:32 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t28I2V8n003539 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 2015 18:02:32 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 11:02:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 208.118.235.17 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) In our `cl*.el' libraries we have some user-facing `cl-*' macros etc. that do not correspond to anything in Common Lisp. This seems misguided. We see this in node (cl) `Modify Macros', for example: "The following macros were invented for this package; they have no analogues in Common Lisp." Why add them to a package that is for Common Lisp functionality (it is "The GNU Emacs Common Lisp emulation package") if they are not part of Common Lisp? This is quite misleading, and it has led some people to think that `letf' etc. are in fact part of Common Lisp. Please consider renaming these without the `cl-' prefix and moving them to a different library, whose name does not start with `cl'. In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2015-02-27 on LEG570 Bzr revision: b2a590d4e3dc692a97c1b53e015b945d84b4b4c7 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --host=3Di686-pc-mingw32 --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs' From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 18:14:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams , dmoncayo@gmail.com Cc: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.14258383841023 (code B ref 20056); Sun, 08 Mar 2015 18:14:02 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2015 18:13:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39705 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUfhH-0000GP-Vf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:13:04 -0400 Received: from mtaout29.012.net.il ([80.179.55.185]:48559) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUfhF-0000Fu-CQ for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:13:02 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout29.012.net.il by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NKW00M00NO32Q00@mtaout29.012.net.il> for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 20:09:04 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NKW00H9SNR3SO40@mtaout29.012.net.il>; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 20:09:04 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 20:12:39 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <834mpv73zc.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 11:02:33 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > > In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) > of 2015-02-27 on LEG570 > Bzr revision: b2a590d4e3dc692a97c1b53e015b945d84b4b4c7 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Dani, what's this "bzr revision" thing about? Do you see that on your machine as well? From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Daniel Colascione Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 18:23:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams , 20056@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.14258389241901 (code B ref 20056); Sun, 08 Mar 2015 18:23:03 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2015 18:22:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39710 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUfq0-0000Ua-53 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:22:04 -0400 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:39545) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUfpv-0000U8-Gs for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:22:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=Q81TzyD7bXtz957MrriDCYqXfRdDWfzeVf6ZhjlR8a4=; b=TMutDNo+XzY5AJ+JPjnsW0eNe808yhBhUA5OgDQiMBPkQ2WqpTvxsmzfQ6JcbJyq1p6mQGu4EU/+mMkjIoPglcE0vbnt4BNJMQKiyXL2CbRBK6jbIEJ7aV3nSEQ+2IM8UzpkMJjE/Dc5Hs8SYQy3/00k9reJ73Kx+tCk/JbfR6482tLjp+jjz6+ePhXCI6fadv1Wxs8g0cNGD6XvnGTO5RxxOc2FddJZcF9L4U3IJUqEE3hHW67ujA3og/LsYNxbTA32ril0NAecOFRk5WAnTnkj5ajqcEYIEjHJpWHYJCFdTVVG0E/MkaUeekGUK6LnvBrATVYs7Ux4Ixck1FughQ==; Received: from c-73-221-38-18.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([73.221.38.18] helo=[192.168.1.210]) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YUfpt-0006eP-9J; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 11:21:57 -0700 Message-ID: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 11:21:52 -0700 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oiVkCBlnU6gJlGrD7836C1bbv37UAdJhH" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --oiVkCBlnU6gJlGrD7836C1bbv37UAdJhH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/08/2015 11:02 AM, Drew Adams wrote: > In our `cl*.el' libraries we have some user-facing `cl-*' macros etc. > that do not correspond to anything in Common Lisp. This seems > misguided. >=20 > We see this in node (cl) `Modify Macros', for example: >=20 > "The following macros were invented for this package; they have no > analogues in Common Lisp." >=20 > Why add them to a package that is for Common Lisp functionality (it is > "The GNU Emacs Common Lisp emulation package") if they are not part of > Common Lisp? >=20 > This is quite misleading, and it has led some people to think that > `letf' etc. are in fact part of Common Lisp. Please consider renaming > these without the `cl-' prefix and moving them to a different library, > whose name does not start with `cl'. Even cl functions that have the same names as functions in Common Lisp don't always have the same features or semantics. I don't think it's very important that the cl package mirror Common Lisp. --oiVkCBlnU6gJlGrD7836C1bbv37UAdJhH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJU/JNAAAoJEN4WImmbpWBlB04P/1UawRmyxdhQDJJ95nUqt68X r356Zkn8NDNdBXJsePauN8v1bT5bEzeow1b62qtXC23XrC7sVTM7zTYuBGl0q6gF xp+fsVREhYwpITsNturoOwxt94AEQXb5eAXCGU18WS6OK5VqG6VrRueUdy2OyW6y LdK3Igl90LEg/ZrfETtjiM15Wpk+3qs5x0RhJQWFS5ssA/n3oGaDNPjONhmgoGDU WljVILzlM120nfL5bh8k4O83CBLO5PEDwkPLkX2couer3O+bRki2cdGPyWJSHJ1L Ar/gN7Gd88IecXbtOdgusIzkFMEs2KQMEzl/IQ/fwE0hVxmFktHIml6tuJbefhsb Cs4TOVMJUuHVtr4xJw/jSnHFrTxxVL6+EDY8FPii7Yh7lmI0MD7bHcSMp1nAogrt Sa0IWagWrQX9ToQsmwj88e+xgdb6KEbS3YpY7ApXx3YPiXoBBSvaV43mo+ZaVkv+ yeL9PMG/vvb2RwNkSSLyNaP/lBXGyiWrV/nT9M6Tzp8WpgG+1gnKSZUS0gfTEDHw ZC/eqcbduPuQMtMIWe7ZamyJZCigyn47Tig0bWj5ofwv1INdevfRGJt4+ezLdRPP rurxU0WxQCs5eGHjhzjlSG3Fky2oiazigne3tvLDp6xiym3K1gCe5ydg9+TAloL3 zdLeNKdN2GgrDoVEw9n1 =umIz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oiVkCBlnU6gJlGrD7836C1bbv37UAdJhH-- From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 18:47:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Daniel Colascione , 20056@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.14258404174298 (code B ref 20056); Sun, 08 Mar 2015 18:47:02 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2015 18:46:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39729 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUgE5-00017G-4L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:46:57 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:21922) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUgE2-000173-TM for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:46:55 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t28IkYIS001113 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Mar 2015 18:46:37 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t28IkXnl029762 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Mar 2015 18:46:34 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t28IkXeI022702; Sun, 8 Mar 2015 18:46:33 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 11:46:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> In-Reply-To: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > Even cl functions that have the same names as functions in Common Lisp > don't always have the same features or semantics. I don't think it's > very important that the cl package mirror Common Lisp. That is something quite different. Those differences are pointed out, and the aim is to emulate Common Lisp, however imperfectly we might be able to (or might want to) do so at any given time. There is no reason to misleadingly add stuff to our emulation library that has no counterpart is Common Lisp - is not emulating anything there. It is even worse to use names that make it look as if these do correspond to Common Lisp things. It is perfectly fine for Emacs to add things that Common Lisp does not have/do. But it should add them elsewhere from the `cl*.el' files, and document them elsewhere than in manual CL. These are *Emacs* things that have nothing to do with Common Lisp. If you start adding non Common-Lisp stuff to `cl*.el', then where will you stop? What will be your criteria for adding them to `cl*.el'? If they do not emulate something in Common Lisp then they belong elsewhere from `cl*.el' (this should be obvious, I think). We are not redesigning Common Lisp or pretending to do so. From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Dani Moncayo Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 19:07:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.14258416116218 (code B ref 20056); Sun, 08 Mar 2015 19:07:02 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2015 19:06:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39747 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUgXL-0001cE-85 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:06:51 -0400 Received: from mail-ob0-f173.google.com ([209.85.214.173]:43188) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUgXJ-0001bz-Me for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:06:50 -0400 Received: by obcvb8 with SMTP id vb8so25659092obc.10 for <20056@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 12:06:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=e/m8aFkejbAVU6pDe2qU91q0py5wHe0Hi/5YnHdhzQI=; b=ktPRX0w1AJLpGUuDSkyNBg/+tiCfCaFN1YFfWmPD5OoerarrRksP4fEY0A39DR93a4 fgZ+PEfyNQqbLucr5PAeG0vKUp3ncpEDdflA0t+Pcb6sDf3LTHc8s42twXScpmJh3V17 14Gdl13mk4cS7Mu5bZFxTySyIixV8hKO4nlBhSNE9lyNi4LckRnEDcr703G9gJmz3bmK ZbUxusv6uWuKZanc9KTX2m4jtEAF5adIIoK2nas8xyhFfcMmMeKbOMQq0gBZ4gYblE5w 7Kpo8esNYjLGIJNp987RV5/YFHINAo9q6mdfinkWvQNyTOu4Y+ZvFRQzu4mcnGnVGfAX j7bw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.226.198 with SMTP id z189mr17912253oig.64.1425841604272; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 12:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.60.54.100 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Mar 2015 12:06:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <834mpv73zc.fsf@gnu.org> References: <834mpv73zc.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 20:06:44 +0100 Message-ID: From: Dani Moncayo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) >> In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) >> of 2015-02-27 on LEG570 >> Bzr revision: b2a590d4e3dc692a97c1b53e015b945d84b4b4c7 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Dani, what's this "bzr revision" thing about? I don't know. > Do you see that on your > machine as well? No, I see this: In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2015-02-27 on LEG570 Repository revision: b2a590d4e3dc692a97c1b53e015b945d84b4b4c7 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.3.9600 Configured using: `configure --host=i686-pc-mingw32 --enable-checking=yes,glyphs' -- Dani Moncayo From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Daniel Colascione Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 19:12:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams , 20056@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.14258418856629 (code B ref 20056); Sun, 08 Mar 2015 19:12:03 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2015 19:11:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39751 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUgbl-0001ir-74 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:11:25 -0400 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:39753) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUgbi-0001ih-G1 for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:11:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=5e0quQv8HIFQnBv486Tq3p60wdTnaNkqt9XDtRhdkOI=; b=ksUsAT5X8bjfPH1ljgZgIXQkv9NbIcttlKp1Za/JQSghWupsvIEUUxy6KUfWTZEZiaaxbWG1g094zLGKM8wCmajiPVsnl+x77sOKQap/ew+j9QQ4iunIHR71NXhp2bSE80HgbfkwaMY8pimyMeskKbifcD3Q0Mm6PXXGedlvuvKva9cwQ6MJINPFXgcoTcqDHFZCQGIj/k/Lsy+ca7PDF9yr+EI8sTkKVGQnnbNEnV89P5hRTh+SfC2+ooi7lTYmQRQzhVY7nJifTep/8Voseaoua5/rwuOuoC2LsN5wshJ8Mb2hXoskz1756GVZvwucCNBu3km4XWcFlKGnHmPmxA==; Received: from c-73-221-38-18.hsd1.wa.comcast.net ([73.221.38.18] helo=[192.168.1.210]) by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YUgbg-0006sO-0I; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 12:11:20 -0700 Message-ID: <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 12:11:15 -0700 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> In-Reply-To: <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mM3xvvTKmvbFDeCvh6jEbkL8cTqAce1ri" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --mM3xvvTKmvbFDeCvh6jEbkL8cTqAce1ri Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/08/2015 11:46 AM, Drew Adams wrote: >> Even cl functions that have the same names as functions in Common Lisp= >> don't always have the same features or semantics. I don't think it's >> very important that the cl package mirror Common Lisp. >=20 > That is something quite different. Those differences are pointed > out, and the aim is to emulate Common Lisp, however imperfectly > we might be able to (or might want to) do so at any given time. >=20 > There is no reason to misleadingly add stuff to our emulation > library that has no counterpart is Common Lisp - is not > emulating anything there. It is even worse to use names that > make it look as if these do correspond to Common Lisp things. >=20 > It is perfectly fine for Emacs to add things that Common Lisp > does not have/do. But it should add them elsewhere from the > `cl*.el' files, and document them elsewhere than in manual CL. Why? Some things (like letf) are just natural extensions of facilities we got from Common Lisp. Keep in mind that they didn't start out under the cl namespace either. They were just there along with everything else when we created cl-lib. I don't think you've explained the downside of extending CL in the cl- namespace. You've articulated an aesthetic point, but I don't see any negative technical consequences. --mM3xvvTKmvbFDeCvh6jEbkL8cTqAce1ri Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJU/J7TAAoJEN4WImmbpWBlO20QAI7WEgJVDwth7It0dLUleO/0 6TCSNOdNQ3PKmxqTbIxPy002AiKBo8jjkbvjySrKgppQ0VV3uqoPCQqEbkEN56mB +jkzdlzEC/SbZH9eXjGOYiEqeH1nNEXG/aG8sXyPPhzhKkbzHCvGtDBYQ9Sw6k4t sdTA06vKdqqhyDdj6FDYlyBO+3Hh4kmjLnCaPB1FTiuqnBqFvOhtR4pE03JWAetN gUIqREp/NjPA4pjCCqps9jJxmpPFeQ88eGbx4IULQch1pX8xFi1TQ130hO3kLG/U lQy2ku4A90iflgOe2OwDIpm8xNr1a9hqE+4tBLXfRB4b2l5vSzbyRhlow6vx93ao ghC/qjUC8HuIJ4Jgj31B3mNFchPgTeeNud190Mz1LZrdMb4Qvs9ForJYktpCIzvd /qhiFBFdhu1G5WmD741Qi3VFVm6RdCoGC7tm97f0CnCKe3X7YuovtaBoiCbk+RGO nczNjYdCBtQo26WjZjMO1ij35jJMd6v290mKaIRnU8N1rWGetDfse6Y7zIfoC/ve bySfBYWb/FCuUYImvOhdKrtc8WUHMUESIm6DJtt2MgiMXuJs9Ky19MxQGKVcSxBo glLp59gabT4cc2VDnA469tp928aSVpC/+3P1LbstuVotEjR3HSMZ417amlSQuSga lbjAowZmhYR1YgTcC60a =zoTk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mM3xvvTKmvbFDeCvh6jEbkL8cTqAce1ri-- From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 20:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Dani Moncayo Cc: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.142584543712205 (code B ref 20056); Sun, 08 Mar 2015 20:11:02 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2015 20:10:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39781 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUhX3-0003An-2h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 16:10:37 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:38586) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUhWz-0003AZ-IH for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 16:10:35 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NKW00300SZ4KI00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 22:10:26 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NKW003XATDDGL50@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 22:10:26 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 22:10:11 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83385f6yjg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <834mpv73zc.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 20:06:44 +0100 > From: Dani Moncayo > Cc: Drew Adams , 20056@debbugs.gnu.org > > >> In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) > >> of 2015-02-27 on LEG570 > >> Bzr revision: b2a590d4e3dc692a97c1b53e015b945d84b4b4c7 > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > Dani, what's this "bzr revision" thing about? > > I don't know. > > > Do you see that on your > > machine as well? > > No, I see this: > > In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) > of 2015-02-27 on LEG570 > Repository revision: b2a590d4e3dc692a97c1b53e015b945d84b4b4c7 > Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.3.9600 > Configured using: > `configure --host=i686-pc-mingw32 --enable-checking=yes,glyphs' Thanks, I guess there's some subtle bug that only rears its head when git the executable is not around. From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 21:13:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Daniel Colascione , 20056@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.142584915618016 (code B ref 20056); Sun, 08 Mar 2015 21:13:02 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2015 21:12:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39807 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUiV1-0004gV-Qg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 17:12:36 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:38296) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUiUz-0004gH-AJ for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 17:12:34 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t28LCJTZ021106 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Mar 2015 21:12:20 GMT Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t28LCJWW029886 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 8 Mar 2015 21:12:19 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t28LCJLI011269; Sun, 8 Mar 2015 21:12:19 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <67b0e9f7-5f3f-4a6f-8f07-91e88d881c3b@default> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 14:12:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> In-Reply-To: <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > There is no reason to misleadingly add stuff to our emulation > > library that has no counterpart is Common Lisp - is not > > emulating anything there. It is even worse to use names that > > make it look as if these do correspond to Common Lisp things. > > > > It is perfectly fine for Emacs to add things that Common Lisp > > does not have/do. But it should add them elsewhere from the > > `cl*.el' files, and document them elsewhere than in manual CL. >=20 > Why? Some things (like letf) are just natural extensions of > facilities we got from Common Lisp. They may be natural extensions of Common Lisp for you, but that does not make them Common Lisp, and it does not make them natural extensions of Common Lisp for Common Lisp's designers. We are not designing or extending Common Lisp. That would be pretentious. We are designing Emacs Lisp. It is perfectly fine to extend or redesign Emacs Lisp any way we like. And we can take whatever we want from Common Lisp and do whatever we want with it. We need not try to emulate any given Common-Lisp function or macro. But the things we put in the Common-Lisp emulation package should be emulations of Common Lisp things, IMO - things designed by the Common-Lisp designers for Common Lisp. It is not appropriate to add non Common-Lisp things to our emulation of Common Lisp. That's all. > Keep in mind that they didn't start out under the cl namespace > either. They were just there along with everything else > when we created cl-lib. Yes, they should have been moved out of `cl*.el' before the creation of `cl-lib.el'. It's not too late to clean things up now and put them in non-`cl*.el' files where they belong (and of course remove the `cl-' prefix). They do not represent Common Lisp features in any way.=20 So call it `letf', not `cl-letf', and move it out of `cl*.el'. Similarly for anything else that is unrelated to Common Lisp. > I don't think you've explained the downside of extending CL > in the cl-namespace.=20 It's not about "extending CL in the cl-namespace". It's about a misguided, if indirect, attempt to extend Common Lisp, and giving the mistaken impression that these things are part of Common Lisp. It's not about the namespace. The same bug report applies to the old `letf' etc. in the old `cl-macs.el' (now called `cl--letf' in the new `cl-macs.el'). The name `letf' was fine for Emacs. And it still is. It just does not belong in `cl*.el'. > You've articulated an aesthetic point, but I don't see any > negative technical consequences. Technical consequences? It's about how this misleads users - user consequences. You've not articulated any criteria for adding a function or macro to `cl*.el'. Why not move `while' there as `cl-while'? Any number of Emacs functions and macros, could be argued to be "natural extensions of facilities we got from Common Lisp." That's too vague to mean anything helpful. Just because we got `let', `let*', and `setf' from Common Lisp, that's no reason that we should add `letf' or `cl-letf' - which have no counterpart in Common Lisp - to `cl*.el'. That's what this bug report is about: Just what should be part of our Common-Lisp emulation package. The criterion I would use is this: The only things that belong there are things that emulate things in Common Lisp. If Common Lisp has a function or macro `foo' then we can consider emulating it (under whatever name) and adding it to the `cl*.el' files. If not, it belongs elsewhere in Emacs. What, specifically, are your criteria for inclusion in `cl*.el'? I was quite specific about mine. How about you? From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Daniel Colascione Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 21:20:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams , 20056@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.142584956218674 (code B ref 20056); Sun, 08 Mar 2015 21:20:03 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2015 21:19:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39811 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUibZ-0004r8-Rw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 17:19:22 -0400 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:40374) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUibX-0004qz-Be for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 17:19:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=oi0oEWsf3mQauTMo2dakEhC75gJ9traZRKLidqNFvvE=; b=byAhCVwR6sU+UXobRzEQCATwZJGWTDqy5dULvrmiInjEfjyDfNcY6f8jQY1Fq/jNpNE+LmBRPbOqZkAWu58P0w3Q3MJ9Tfxq65BzJbPst6BB2RdORyrPwTMyyj3nEXU3fnBKVzYGyet6x3aWxnN0rdwyp1cUaYcEMHVbbRZugIn+hjGZhsIQfANf4by+3wFm+W621F3CZ1dfD5R9H2caQmgQgwwS0q/i5aE5pIJccbXTwBKMQScKVwS0pW97UMEPNg6GZGmGRfoElkUUA/sB6PAGuH4yAdxr0xLfIBbxoWxpx/yLDe0mlCrvNroUMFbS7MeZq3NFuMShQqHk2+Y1dg==; Received: from [2620:10d:c081:1101:2ab2:bdff:fe1c:db58] by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YUibV-0007Sb-Ds; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:19:17 -0700 Message-ID: <54FCBCCE.5010402@dancol.org> Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:19:10 -0700 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> <67b0e9f7-5f3f-4a6f-8f07-91e88d881c3b@default> In-Reply-To: <67b0e9f7-5f3f-4a6f-8f07-91e88d881c3b@default> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tAx3q4MdNhvJ60spcmLCAuttP39GFfFT3" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --tAx3q4MdNhvJ60spcmLCAuttP39GFfFT3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/08/2015 02:12 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > It is perfectly fine to extend or redesign Emacs Lisp any way we > like. And we can take whatever we want from Common Lisp and do > whatever we want with it. We need not try to emulate any given > Common-Lisp function or macro. But the things we put in the > Common-Lisp emulation package should be emulations of Common Lisp > things, IMO - things designed by the Common-Lisp designers for > Common Lisp. >=20 > It is not appropriate to add non Common-Lisp things to our > emulation of Common Lisp. That's all. I think cl-lib has long ago stopped being an emulation of common lisp. Now, it's a CL-*inspired* utility library. I doubt that there's a risk of real harmful confusion between this library and actual Common Lisp. --tAx3q4MdNhvJ60spcmLCAuttP39GFfFT3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJU/LzOAAoJEN4WImmbpWBlTSIP/jJk2nNhk7zvnBF9GW9kvqie lGhuOhI6IwFhZBwrOHrOSkDsHBSLUb9pXk9y3Paun7pglWvkfk+28IlwSHvpQBYw KE2C2DIwRTvT59eFKvqLF26ewnWEYE+gp14cZ/P1oleBNIxRNCM1Iawxo2ShDLVf zcXNS8Y09+FAnACG2ZWRMT/UYubTP/w4wz4mSE8lCp1InrLl8sL1asraHMXprY3P w+Uov6SWQlWIM7Ve1mOueaLcb5mYwO2OZni4rG9f13csvCRbxfrutNs9ukIREWN4 N7SLtA9R5ey3t9d33nuhXRfYaJGJSoiggp2c76Vud6MvMCA35xLH37BtzmPVxCIm AdUQfh44RhFiHXzAdEendAY7ig1QW8bXAahHf1encJV46wlDwbKiA54fd1s+dbia 578JclrDkVIMPUPzXv50JT5YeVL/f3L6FU3RdeuDC8mK6Muql93uYz4uBghoL7u7 6adKDRu5Pd+/9BhYiBrv5kmWxUV/lgmgbwW35j4ZlN7x/heNKIUwbCi2AGsdYVbK n7QUXaDLSXFYRQuPAOshQIkvS8OLPR6Do/gOxqPmcEpitZwDy6Rh16LTghSpgC/t D6+2RqfztGkbW0Wp0YHa46V5pdNQG3+Y/fuacl2YQBzH1sdHIHSMaUbVVYaITZ30 Yr+BYnwUbzGoYuDcJhA8 =tTPq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tAx3q4MdNhvJ60spcmLCAuttP39GFfFT3-- From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 21:32:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Daniel Colascione , 20056@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.142585028419886 (code B ref 20056); Sun, 08 Mar 2015 21:32:01 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Mar 2015 21:31:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39816 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUinE-0005Ab-2x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 17:31:24 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:40478) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUinB-0005AM-AG for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 17:31:21 -0400 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t28LV9lG032453 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Mar 2015 21:31:09 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t28LV7Iu028328 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Mar 2015 21:31:08 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t28LV75O003676; Sun, 8 Mar 2015 21:31:07 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <14e8cd66-02fe-43c7-8ec8-cb5bb92bbe7e@default> Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 14:31:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> <67b0e9f7-5f3f-4a6f-8f07-91e88d881c3b@default> <54FCBCCE.5010402@dancol.org> In-Reply-To: <54FCBCCE.5010402@dancol.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > It is perfectly fine to extend or redesign Emacs Lisp any way we > > like. And we can take whatever we want from Common Lisp and do > > whatever we want with it. We need not try to emulate any given > > Common-Lisp function or macro. But the things we put in the > > Common-Lisp emulation package should be emulations of Common Lisp > > things, IMO - things designed by the Common-Lisp designers for > > Common Lisp. > > > > It is not appropriate to add non Common-Lisp things to our > > emulation of Common Lisp. That's all. >=20 > I think cl-lib has long ago stopped being an emulation of common lisp. What makes you think so? Even if that were true, it's not a reason not to clean it up now. And if it is not to be cleaned up, what criteria (3rd time asking) do you apply to decide what goes into it and what does not? > Now, it's a CL-*inspired* utility library.=20 What does that even mean? Inspired how? What criteria define what is or is not a "CL-*inspired* utility"? If ever there was a huge language that touches nearly everything and nearly every software engineering construct/approach, it's Common Lisp. What is not a "CL-*inspired* utility"? > I doubt that there's a risk of real harmful confusion between > this library and actual Common Lisp. Google for `letf' and you will find that just such confusion has occurred. And there is no reason for it. That's the point - it doesn't have to be this way. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Mar 08 20:47:42 2015 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2015 00:47:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39889 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUlrC-0001oZ-7t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 20:47:42 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:50569 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUlrB-0001oS-6N for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 20:47:41 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YUlrA-0003lD-Uz for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Mar 2015 20:47:41 -0400 Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 20:47:40 -0400 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 20056 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) tag 20056 notabug wontfix From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 04:53:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug wontfix To: Daniel Colascione Cc: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.142587673416025 (code B ref 20056); Mon, 09 Mar 2015 04:53:02 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Mar 2015 04:52:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40012 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUpfp-0004AO-SD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Mar 2015 00:52:14 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:46079) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YUpfo-0004AD-L9 for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Mar 2015 00:52:13 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ak4UAPOG1lRLd/0j/2dsb2JhbABbgwaDX4E5hBq+HIJJBAICgQ1EAQEBAQEBfIQNAQVWIxALDiYSFBgNJIhAziMBAQEBAQEBAwEBAQEBHY94B4QqBalygUUihAoignMBAQE X-IPAS-Result: Ak4UAPOG1lRLd/0j/2dsb2JhbABbgwaDX4E5hBq+HIJJBAICgQ1EAQEBAQEBfIQNAQVWIxALDiYSFBgNJIhAziMBAQEBAQEBAwEBAQEBHY94B4QqBalygUUihAoignMBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.09,536,1418101200"; d="scan'208";a="113037541" Received: from 75-119-253-35.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([75.119.253.35]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Mar 2015 00:52:07 -0400 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id D33546610A; Mon, 9 Mar 2015 00:52:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier Message-ID: References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> <67b0e9f7-5f3f-4a6f-8f07-91e88d881c3b@default> <54FCBCCE.5010402@dancol.org> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 00:52:06 -0400 In-Reply-To: <54FCBCCE.5010402@dancol.org> (Daniel Colascione's message of "Sun, 08 Mar 2015 14:19:10 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) FWIW, I'll just mention that I agree with Daniel's assessment. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 29 01:01:43 2016 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Feb 2016 06:01:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51685 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aaGtr-0001Xo-Jj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Feb 2016 01:01:43 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:47754) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aaGtq-0001WQ-8s for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Feb 2016 01:01:42 -0500 Received: from cpe-60-225-211-161.nsw.bigpond.net.au ([60.225.211.161] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1aaGtT-0004A0-Rk for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Feb 2016 07:01:20 +0100 Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 17:01:16 +1100 Message-Id: <87wppoqclv.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #20056 X-MailScanner-ID: 1aaGtT-0004A0-Rk X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1457330480.8835@GM5ek7UVUI7S5TXx/OH/xA X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) close 20056 From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Glenn Morris Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 20:09:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug wontfix To: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.145677649920372 (code B ref 20056); Mon, 29 Feb 2016 20:09:02 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Feb 2016 20:08:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54089 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aaU78-0005IW-Pn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Feb 2016 15:08:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:33119) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aaU76-0005IJ-Rt for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Feb 2016 15:08:17 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aaU70-000628-U2 for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Feb 2016 15:08:11 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:37070) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aaU70-00061y-Qb for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Feb 2016 15:08:10 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1aaU6z-0007aE-KS; Mon, 29 Feb 2016 15:08:09 -0500 From: Glenn Morris References: <834mpv73zc.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: Irish Republican Army Abu Ghraib United Nations Waco, X-Ran: :.GhY%3qcJ~un5*3nWgo~;tYJh$74seBBHgT[ X-Hue: magenta X-Attribution: GM Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 15:08:09 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Dani Moncayo's message of "Sun, 8 Mar 2015 20:06:44 +0100") Message-ID: <85io178el2.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Dani Moncayo wrote: >>> In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) >>> of 2015-02-27 on LEG570 >>> Bzr revision: b2a590d4e3dc692a97c1b53e015b945d84b4b4c7 >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> Dani, what's this "bzr revision" thing about? > > I don't know. For the record, it's a bug in Someone's custom Emacs bug reporting package. From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 20:58:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug wontfix To: Glenn Morris , 20056@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.145677944731529 (code B ref 20056); Mon, 29 Feb 2016 20:58:02 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Feb 2016 20:57:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54165 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aaUsh-0008CT-CC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Feb 2016 15:57:27 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:49154) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aaUsf-0008Bw-38 for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Feb 2016 15:57:25 -0500 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u1TKvISK030660 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 29 Feb 2016 20:57:18 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u1TKvIo1003985 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Feb 2016 20:57:18 GMT Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u1TKvHkj016997; Mon, 29 Feb 2016 20:57:17 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 12:57:17 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <834mpv73zc.fsf@gnu.org> <85io178el2.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <85io178el2.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > >>> In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) > >>> of 2015-02-27 on LEG570 > >>> Bzr revision: b2a590d4e3dc692a97c1b53e015b945d84b4b4c7 > >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >> > >> Dani, what's this "bzr revision" thing about? > > > > I don't know. >=20 > For the record, it's a bug in Someone's custom Emacs bug reporting > package. Yes, it came fom my library `emacsbug+.el'. http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/emacsbug%2b.el It does this: (insert "\n\nIn " (emacs-version) "\n") (when (and (boundp 'emacs-bzr-version) (stringp emacs-bzr-version)) (insert "Bzr revision: " emacs-bzr-version "\n")) Which is exactly what vanilla Emacs did too, a couple of years ago. I just had not updated my library to use the renamed label, `Repository version:'. I've done that now, so this scandalous problem should no longer plague you. In any case, my code does not define or set `emacs-bzr-version'. ,---- | emacs-bzr-version is a variable defined in `emacsbug+.el'. | Its value is nil |=20 | This variable is an alias for `emacs-repository-version'. | This variable is obsolete since 24.4; | use `emacs-repository-version' instead. |=20 | Documentation: | String giving the repository revision from which this Emacs was built. | Value is nil if Emacs was not built from a repository checkout, | or if we could not determine the revision. `---- My code uses the old name of this variable because it works, including across multiple Emacs versions. Naturally, I proposed the little that `emacsbugs+.el' does to Emacs Dev for `emacsbug.el'. Naturally, there was no interest. What does it do? It just lets users choose which fields to include by default in a bug report. What Emacs does with a monolithic `report-emacs-bug', this library does with a modular `report-emacs-bug'. That's all. Not a biggee. User option `ebp-report-emacs-bug-included-fields': (defcustom ebp-report-emacs-bug-included-fields '(version settings major-mode minor-modes recent-input recent-messages load-shadows features) "Fields to include by default for command `report-emacs-bug'. The fields are included automatically in the buffer where you edit your bug report." :type '(set (const :tag "Emacs version info" version) (const :tag "Important settings" settings) (const :tag "Major mode" major-mode) (const :tag "Minor modes" minor-modes) (const :tag "Recent input" recent-input) (const :tag "Recent messages" recent-messages) (const :tag "Load-path shadows" load-shadows) (const :tag "Features" features)) :group 'emacsbug-plus :group 'convenience) For my own purposes, I use the value `(version)': report just the version info, by default. There are also commands to insert all or any of the fields. To insert recent input, for example, you can use command `edp-insert-recent-input'. From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2019 12:51:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug wontfix To: Stefan Monnier Cc: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org, Daniel Colascione , Drew Adams Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.15647502273986 (code B ref 20056); Fri, 02 Aug 2019 12:51:02 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Aug 2019 12:50:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56033 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htX0t-00012D-IR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Aug 2019 08:50:27 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:58300) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htX0r-000123-T5 for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Aug 2019 08:50:26 -0400 Received: from 77.18.62.220.tmi.telenormobil.no ([77.18.62.220] helo=sandy) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1htX0l-00024a-63; Fri, 02 Aug 2019 14:50:21 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> <67b0e9f7-5f3f-4a6f-8f07-91e88d881c3b@default> <54FCBCCE.5010402@dancol.org> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2019 14:50:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Mon, 09 Mar 2015 00:52:06 -0400") Message-ID: <87tvazpw8l.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier writes: > FWIW, I'll just mention that I agree with Daniel's assessment. Seems like most agree that this isn't something to be fixed, and I'm closing this bug report. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP 0.0 TVD_RCVD_IP Message was received from an IP address -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Monnier writes: > FWIW, I'll just mention that I agree with Daniel's assessment. Seems like most agree that this isn't something to be fixed, and I'm closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Aug 02 08:50:32 2019 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Aug 2019 12:50:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56036 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htX0x-00012U-Qe for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Aug 2019 08:50:32 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:58316) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htX0w-00012N-LK for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Aug 2019 08:50:31 -0400 Received: from 77.18.62.220.tmi.telenormobil.no ([77.18.62.220] helo=sandy) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1htX0t-00024j-VY for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Aug 2019 14:50:29 +0200 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2019 14:50:27 +0200 Message-Id: <87sgqjpw8c.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #20056 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 20056 wontfix close 20056 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP 0.0 TVD_RCVD_IP Message was received from an IP address -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 20056 wontfix close 20056 quit From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Noam Postavsky Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 02:50:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug wontfix To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org, Daniel Colascione , Stefan Monnier , Drew Adams Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.156480056818246 (code B ref 20056); Sat, 03 Aug 2019 02:50:01 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2019 02:49:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58108 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htk6p-0004kD-Rp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:49:28 -0400 Received: from mail-io1-f52.google.com ([209.85.166.52]:33098) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htk6n-0004k0-Mx for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:49:26 -0400 Received: by mail-io1-f52.google.com with SMTP id z3so15212115iog.0 for <20056@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 02 Aug 2019 19:49:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=l6vuQKZkACoOymzje8Xw1Zh3ZLuye1RCWQh3kI418B4=; b=TG2yBoOvqJKpIh9mvQyM/Wa0zOuYIJgR6LwKgHmQYZs54rqZaJdoppspbsAMNB2zeK DgQ7a2JCMJgdoV+ocXrT3Jx3e0/NUjCxnMru+L1hhhWnAj0z0RjK8NWsqbJgD0B8loXT kDWYzbx/dG4tMSYfuzmnvxzcyaw9fwL3XL702AeL5C1Yw02fsyX0NmyeEF1vSYNzNpIh YVUK9Xriuw4IvJrSYBtGuqdQWCmZUFvFwFeSfi1W07+wWWPuRLn+4O93wVq7Nsxp+fbS A2UDIdodTbsQenfmX7W/jtOT/CJjqZ4SsYfJNnZHNub0QLLyMawv7Pm+43rTK6YRujCc wEkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=l6vuQKZkACoOymzje8Xw1Zh3ZLuye1RCWQh3kI418B4=; b=FvGrugzBzRYHaMem7oRXLw2X/HIvYnyIRfNAe92Bx5+DJa2ryQTKUClUosQoYDvf7T +wr0jZhRIrS48c+48YzSAiEPCVXvYnHW9aPY3HuuMa8MDTMO9I1ZPmtYx6I2/wKXNOZ+ +LJud1RmJ5ZYbWTELIlf8OUzQXtI70sLzphvqwBbP5/RguRdIl2Prc/DUhOj/YGbQIWo b3gp095kjfUz/Q+z19xGa2KU1PMTa/OViaYejiDkpFJAlYodBmR8LIYkigLbvl7r5yIb dXLUYSBbUd/u/BRhhCYmYTwfDmjsl1r+1MFcBntvLfUcJSgEPwjqVy2wPY5xMVpEBjyB DO+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWWDIBIIASrGOt9Ts4/oVGmCYPM90zLLH6C64pL/zJFTrHZARZy 8TEvTs+ZaZkVfmqyV0QQ193yZ+mX X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxn5+w4GAYZqvMofg87SMvYGYrQp8/Rby9pr7dBgIgmbhdMeArg3GlLKL0nQYpNDVmovRg+Fw== X-Received: by 2002:a5e:db0a:: with SMTP id q10mr10432138iop.168.1564800560209; Fri, 02 Aug 2019 19:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minid (cbl-45-2-119-34.yyz.frontiernetworks.ca. [45.2.119.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r24sm54881193ioc.76.2019.08.02.19.49.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Fri, 02 Aug 2019 19:49:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Noam Postavsky References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> <67b0e9f7-5f3f-4a6f-8f07-91e88d881c3b@default> <54FCBCCE.5010402@dancol.org> <87tvazpw8l.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:49:19 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87tvazpw8l.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri, 02 Aug 2019 14:50:18 +0200") Message-ID: <871ry3t13k.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.2.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Stefan Monnier writes: > >> FWIW, I'll just mention that I agree with Daniel's assessment. > > Seems like most agree that this isn't something to be fixed, and I'm > closing this bug report. Things have changed since the original discussion though: now that setf has been moved out of cl-lib, I think cl-letf and cl-callf should go with it. From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: =?UTF-8?Q?=C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n_?= =?UTF-8?Q?N=C4=9Bmec?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 07:50:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug wontfix To: Noam Postavsky Cc: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen , Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.156481857731583 (code B ref 20056); Sat, 03 Aug 2019 07:50:01 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2019 07:49:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58255 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htonJ-0008DL-Ap for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 03:49:37 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f49.google.com ([209.85.221.49]:36352) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htonG-0008D6-Kn for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 03:49:35 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f49.google.com with SMTP id n4so79500531wrs.3 for <20056@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 00:49:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=N/8+zm+DCJTmebry4cxB3t9QsU+x47+Tcgt6xfqPjrQ=; b=AYeCFZApbVc6wdFb7SEILyOODYDCFBK1m86QXC5+7LqWvKztW8V9gqfcnbvSU4Tg0H uyE4TlrdZVs7V/XXz37cf9rGarDWzO9u7rmD1TUeiR378xwqUQ+bpradjkl/dPvaNNRw 9XrKOD9JYiU5t00hG+MHWXhVZLpElWF8BoMb8PeCnhuMUMmOKuZP7vurWvCaBJ75jjwA 4TnlOwlMDuVou47Cf5lTfMc1XUisY3mTxVAlIOCnldN6vcH8gTwKXai13mQXIrlY9AsG Eh+QKiMx5uz+INlEE1YHL7ez/UY5WGujEttqraLxHldWtFT9ngUeHtf0akIyObqFcIwP 6nZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references :user-agent:date:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=N/8+zm+DCJTmebry4cxB3t9QsU+x47+Tcgt6xfqPjrQ=; b=eqQ7aK/hjANiBrXG28WpaaA+dTR412Nbtj/4hGVtO8M3ak0k3uxEoqKUWjypeTKZaG GqGXbp2RsAAKG0j4TvYl84eR3tDuBgnFVgEZ/aaTAjxlixYz+NFt0z6oS8pXpCSTEYAQ By9THmJwdeMV6qQw9SOOykJHjp/tkfuQeof2CQ2XRk+0iNIr8zWZdOa7HT1tJ76cwQNh 0Z3OtG7CEn4i8/mOAp6ElKJP9FGM3Zdqini3UznwF41UXZ12UsRvJIaqVR7w2YeCuxfC cjB7gH3MfvYAKzpge1JrfKYHy7F1MvagER6AmHBcwXpSVS+6kvy+fkLY1oETel4wvR/t D/+A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUR1QYbM028Sioeg8I/A1RuYHPHpMZYHTxh0sXBuAeR+YB8qTzT to2emmMdfsD1MbBUCK+gFj0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzWE2wANhnY6QNZa81pivL3rTlfGzqiixjkKVhOgIkLF35EzAwtuRHfDFgGNnZifcyieq2Pzw== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f450:: with SMTP id f16mr118347066wrp.335.1564818568786; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 00:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([185.112.167.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h133sm83871120wme.28.2019.08.03.00.49.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 03 Aug 2019 00:49:28 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?Q?=C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n_?= =?UTF-8?Q?N=C4=9Bmec?= In-Reply-To: <871ry3t13k.fsf@gmail.com> (Noam Postavsky's message of "Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:49:19 -0400") References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> <67b0e9f7-5f3f-4a6f-8f07-91e88d881c3b@default> <54FCBCCE.5010402@dancol.org> <87tvazpw8l.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> <871ry3t13k.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 09:49:27 +0200 Message-ID: <87o916bse0.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:49:19 -0400 Noam Postavsky wrote: > Things have changed since the original discussion though: now that setf > has been moved out of cl-lib, I think cl-letf and cl-callf should go > with it. As much as I would personally like to get rid of the prefixes, it seems to me that unless you move _most_ of cl-, you'll only increase the confusion. Now it's just setf, that's easy to remember, but with more exceptions one would have to check if a particular form is or isn't supposed to be used with the prefix all the time (albeit with the help of the byte compiler). Considering your proposal in particular, what about shiftf, rotatef? What makes them different? --=20 =C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 10:31:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug wontfix To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n_?= =?UTF-8?Q?N=C4=9Bmec?= Cc: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org, Noam Postavsky , Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.156482821914747 (code B ref 20056); Sat, 03 Aug 2019 10:31:02 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2019 10:30:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58320 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htrIp-0003pn-GD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 06:30:19 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:45186) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htrIn-0003pd-B4 for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 06:30:17 -0400 Received: from 77.18.62.220.tmi.telenormobil.no ([77.18.62.220] helo=sandy) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1htrIh-0003SF-3Z; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 12:30:13 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> <67b0e9f7-5f3f-4a6f-8f07-91e88d881c3b@default> <54FCBCCE.5010402@dancol.org> <87tvazpw8l.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> <871ry3t13k.fsf@gmail.com> <87o916bse0.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 12:30:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87o916bse0.fsf@gmail.com> ("=?UTF-8?Q?=C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n_?= =?UTF-8?Q?N=C4=9Bmec?="'s message of "Sat, 03 Aug 2019 09:49:27 +0200") Message-ID: <87mugqlex9.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: =?UTF-8?Q?=C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n_?= =?UTF-8?Q?N=C4=9Bmec?= writes: > Considering your proposal in particular, what about shiftf, rotatef? > What makes them different? And incf/decf. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP 0.0 TVD_RCVD_IP Message was received from an IP address -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) =C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n N=C4=9Bmec writes: > Considering your proposal in particular, what about shiftf, rotatef? > What makes them different? And incf/decf. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Noam Postavsky Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 12:59:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug wontfix To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org, =?UTF-8?Q?=C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n_?= =?UTF-8?Q?N=C4=9Bmec?= , Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.156483713530216 (code B ref 20056); Sat, 03 Aug 2019 12:59:02 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2019 12:58:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58522 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1httcc-0007rI-Uy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 08:58:55 -0400 Received: from mail-io1-f46.google.com ([209.85.166.46]:38559) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1httca-0007r5-Pb for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 08:58:53 -0400 Received: by mail-io1-f46.google.com with SMTP id j6so38472924ioa.5 for <20056@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 05:58:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pyP/VxQY7NZTKEudSCEmStY4Ho0BmkX7AeUqXEU5Amw=; b=iFJCFbGf8tp8932FRJz4GIHnK2PA3MOxCVVZtZuHySM94N6VhsqlPsv0VgVlNx/Acd BrJStcRLigxAbpaW+Fmck7+0XRFebF4vjiHSAeZYYE8ZHIY6Au0P10MDZi9P8Z4UBvLl PJdwy1uyimUsaC6LNJxRHuUr9EQjAkCFs5rSYisPMKOUsBD479bXAM9myeVBmwZntqmv z39TeqraFjMI3Jm2pb1x61rrJkA5MdrSlXRSzDuPnyTnkVRBRrxO9J8WoXy/nxIVVMQC nYWvb6dIGV/E7dw450msy0nNVTV8EERXpFPx+Bo104llKLwOtzXjBIlEjvfz+2g+EFN4 Jadg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pyP/VxQY7NZTKEudSCEmStY4Ho0BmkX7AeUqXEU5Amw=; b=Q8LpgRd2S6CdcOhuffwaWu+BSoJ3/ewcZFogSCtlIPG0DZacKsef3A+OZFl15hbRa7 ua1tGEgzuHZaf1tFjPtYM2OCFgEkmMnwRNO+3nWkGEASTLq0059fIGvJmO2cDzcQwXfX eSgE1XbzMrHfsyNJ/tbXgsy/FUeADat01yX2Xt35UUnCNWnoxKryJwUkIFkPnCOsy8O3 goJ05j30VXC3yzJFk/Nn9B7+Mc9Z6g5+KzD8CIu2HjD010orVBgRiqmtfIeXsrWUNdDC j8veMTD0vKkuMAgs9eh2krkurXfGUoMkIhpbdjXvbYroBJYMqa43QUai6KDaFhE7+EdL Z/ng== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVxALnha9C7+o0entQTMsS5dFIy3bs8XIAlzACcATz7KIoA7dOs VrrhObC/50/MPe/Y2QLfNdM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy2dxjz2yOzFWKVML8PfKsmMVv0ZLsTHBWQYhVD8sDiNe+sLABzReJrpqPTw0Y1uuEZ1tiJIw== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:dc08:: with SMTP id s8mr3466129ioc.209.1564837127160; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 05:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minid (cbl-45-2-119-34.yyz.frontiernetworks.ca. [45.2.119.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q13sm69874280ioh.36.2019.08.03.05.58.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sat, 03 Aug 2019 05:58:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Noam Postavsky References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> <67b0e9f7-5f3f-4a6f-8f07-91e88d881c3b@default> <54FCBCCE.5010402@dancol.org> <87tvazpw8l.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> <871ry3t13k.fsf@gmail.com> <87o916bse0.fsf@gmail.com> <87mugqlex9.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 08:58:45 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87mugqlex9.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sat, 03 Aug 2019 12:30:10 +0200") Message-ID: <87v9ves8vu.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.2.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > =C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n N=C4=9Bmec writes: > >> Considering your proposal in particular, what about shiftf, rotatef? >> What makes them different? > > And incf/decf. That letf and callf are not defined by Common Lisp. From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: =?UTF-8?Q?=C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n_?= =?UTF-8?Q?N=C4=9Bmec?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 13:17:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug wontfix To: Noam Postavsky Cc: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen , Stefan Monnier Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.156483820213270 (code B ref 20056); Sat, 03 Aug 2019 13:17:01 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2019 13:16:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58552 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htttp-0003Rm-Lm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 09:16:41 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f51.google.com ([209.85.221.51]:45953) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1htttn-0003MA-Tp for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 09:16:40 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f51.google.com with SMTP id f9so1046226wre.12 for <20056@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 06:16:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1RqKOBeIyiRGITF2P3S2v7V2lM8wrt17Dzx4Eyrz8ks=; b=P9sjBSZTyDOkxy50TwafSSVKNsUVaHB17Ya5/GWX58kXTQ7X/M8QDCmVKa7umznIHB reGLqb9+oZ35oy6O4FCDIsrae/fW86JAWvmdrB8/tZBw3rMxa7SLhe+XMPnJjeMYTBkI qpihiUBsRMolTJrv4oMfyFZcU166qZzshJ2FhQ8lNSm5gvJ058TBT+NBX6hTrT31Y5Ov SAXCg2jo8QkwFNpj9Srjh5KINwWzQE2Pz5c+o4ZDMlWT3IeOpVDWcAPcX6hz7whjsNSg K5OWV19WkHoryf7eU8AlVitgU29sr6x5pw8S8QkLpMkmWDmGvcYai65GBFSYpnp0qXIQ t0kA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references :user-agent:date:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1RqKOBeIyiRGITF2P3S2v7V2lM8wrt17Dzx4Eyrz8ks=; b=shm6ZdZThaLH1ocKkg9hkqVlB0QyNdqD70PZtWwlVhpnVJ4uHaVqT6sO5PtMG6Vcjo vaSUA1/41+nptSziffkyZyAxDDbX1qv0oL6S62u9S7XPz/yyFmTU3EqYCLeq3WUBGkaK IdTGCaly3xgtbIPC+dR2nVumnfICqCgKfzFigAhXN1cUjz0dUW/PWuULrw8SYvJC0xGp KeyKW3BcZ+29px5gNck4YrbGAPgoBj1tGCzbZupfwiXmnWK5RbATFEdrg5rYix26T0mk 0BN38WGWNtoYc2/CAto8OOj3axo6/JFu3+3qW9cZeCaCbErBRK8mcb3FlFXpU+4HXwye ZzxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWqrSPRTWxbHitl2AfBBMbIlPJXl1aUFf9ti9yqVJOW6ruJ97PU Cm9LgqIAldKRpN9elpi9SBk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxBYBz2QZIo9aQvHYFOtMmFmoF9rQHGvXYxk6jGYlTn0gKQ5ycU0xA7U85xqxy4ZIQvJScrig== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:670b:: with SMTP id o11mr32416049wru.311.1564838194184; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 06:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([185.112.167.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i66sm136486059wmi.11.2019.08.03.06.16.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 03 Aug 2019 06:16:33 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?Q?=C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n_?= =?UTF-8?Q?N=C4=9Bmec?= In-Reply-To: <87v9ves8vu.fsf@gmail.com> (Noam Postavsky's message of "Sat, 03 Aug 2019 08:58:45 -0400") References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> <67b0e9f7-5f3f-4a6f-8f07-91e88d881c3b@default> <54FCBCCE.5010402@dancol.org> <87tvazpw8l.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> <871ry3t13k.fsf@gmail.com> <87o916bse0.fsf@gmail.com> <87mugqlex9.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> <87v9ves8vu.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 15:16:32 +0200 Message-ID: <878ssabd8v.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Sat, 03 Aug 2019 08:58:45 -0400 Noam Postavsky wrote: > Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > >> =C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n N=C4=9Bmec writes: >> >>> Considering your proposal in particular, what about shiftf, rotatef? >>> What makes them different? >> >> And incf/decf. > > That letf and callf are not defined by Common Lisp. Yeah, but setf is... (and as pointed out elsewhere in the thread, letf and callf really belong naturally with the others). Anyway, I see that your proposal _is_ in fact limited to these and the more general cl- problem is beyond this particular bug report, sorry for the noise. --=20 =C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n From unknown Tue Aug 19 08:20:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#20056: 25.0.50; Remove non Common Lisp stuff from cl*.el libraries Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 21:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20056 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug wontfix To: Noam Postavsky Cc: 20056@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen , Daniel Colascione , Drew Adams Received: via spool by 20056-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20056.156486662530258 (code B ref 20056); Sat, 03 Aug 2019 21:11:02 +0000 Received: (at 20056) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2019 21:10:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60120 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hu1IH-0007ry-G2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 17:10:25 -0400 Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:63098) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hu1IG-0007ri-41 for 20056@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 17:10:24 -0400 Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id E8DAE85AD4; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:10:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id E188480A1A; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:10:17 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1564866617; bh=i9erVk/A2vsweD3Iy6fcbzhnZTCQOvuN4v52ZQB7Hbs=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=GGCPGDQoojMgLDFoU8V1JvUGXrwiawfoOKU4oE6qFkm9vn4/e3fmPGYLn76m5Wbpp Fr9ATMsA/043+NpKp5wD6IiV2r9eF7hF6r++KxS9SSfx1m7i9/sOQm0LExDACkNVYz drZ44xP02IBcru08HckopTDYTerkKh3JzJqhwem98YgTjYwjYts0+O89acLLqP5BDd vsSfYrGVOHPwrD0HZEGJpTY6mcFkAEN9CXFUvGIeoc4ewWns3KixIJs9xwrOO1Jl5L Z/k/+VZnYnuRl3AF3eWB3y72kmEi4LMz8qRPFCW14RN5B3HmEa+Y3xfDyZP/mg0cJq TyspjM9sioOFA== Received: from alfajor (unknown [78.192.50.77]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 133C1120397; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 17:10:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier Message-ID: References: <54FC9340.2030703@dancol.org> <4fd5309f-c0bd-486d-8612-a2f724643a2e@default> <54FC9ED3.9000102@dancol.org> <67b0e9f7-5f3f-4a6f-8f07-91e88d881c3b@default> <54FCBCCE.5010402@dancol.org> <87tvazpw8l.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> <871ry3t13k.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 17:10:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: <871ry3t13k.fsf@gmail.com> (Noam Postavsky's message of "Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:49:19 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results: 0 ALL_TRUSTED -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain X-SPAM-LEVEL: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > Things have changed since the original discussion though: now that setf > has been moved out of cl-lib, I think cl-letf and cl-callf should go > with it. I'm OK with moving them out of CL, but they should go to gv.el (i.e. with a `gv-` prefix). And w.r.t cl-callf, I'd rather replace it is something slightly different (like the `gv-modify` discussed recently-ish). Stefan