GNU bug report logs - #1988
Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual

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Message #5 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Jesse W <jessw <at> netwood.net>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 00:16:48 -0800

Currently, in the displayed HTML of the Emacs Manual, there is nothing 
the specifically says it is released under the GFDL (GNU Free 
Documentation License), and what the Invariant Sections and Cover-Texts 
are.  It's in an HTML comment, but there isn't even a note in the 
rendered text to tell you to look there.  This makes it more likely 
that people will mis-use the text, by presuming it's under the GFDL 
without any Invariant Sections, and in other ways.

I heard that this had been discussed earlier, but I was unable to find 
it in the archives of gnu.emacs.bug, so I'm bringing it up again.

Jesse Weinstein

Message #10 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Jesse W <jessw <at> netwood.net>
Cc: 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 02:38:08 -0500

Jesse W wrote:

> Currently, in the displayed HTML of the Emacs Manual, there is nothing 
> the specifically says it is released under the GFDL (GNU Free 
> Documentation License), and what the Invariant Sections and Cover-Texts 
> are.  It's in an HTML comment, but there isn't even a note in the 
> rendered text to tell you to look there. 

The Emacs manual uses the standard texinfo @copying command to specify
this information; so I'd say that this was a texinfo issue rather than
an Emacs issue. Perhaps you can check on the texinfo list (?) if this
has been discussed?

Message #15 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Jesse W <jessw <at> netwood.net>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:33:59 -0800

On Jan 25, 2009, at 11:38 PM, Glenn Morris wrote:
> Jesse W wrote:
>> Currently, in the displayed HTML of the Emacs Manual, there is nothing
>> the specifically says it is released under the GFDL (GNU Free
>> Documentation License), and what the Invariant Sections and  
>> Cover-Texts
>> are.  It's in an HTML comment, but there isn't even a note in the
>> rendered text to tell you to look there.
>
> The Emacs manual uses the standard texinfo @copying command to specify
> this information; so I'd say that this was a texinfo issue rather than
> an Emacs issue. Perhaps you can check on the texinfo list (?) if this
> has been discussed?
There is a specific texinfo @ command, @insertcopying, which is  
designed to make the @copying information visible.  See  
http://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/html_node/ 
insertcopying.html#insertcopying

There does not seem to have been discussion about it on the texinfo-bug  
list.

I'm suggesting that the Emacs Manual be modified either to
1) Include the @insertcopying command at the beginning of the document,  
so the license grant is visible in all the formats, or
2) Insert a note that tells people to look in the HTML/texinfo source  
code for the license grant.

This is not a texinfo problem.

Jesse Weinstein

Message #18 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Jesse W <jessw <at> netwood.net>
Cc: 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:41:44 -0500

Jesse W wrote:

> There is a specific texinfo @ command, @insertcopying, which is  
> designed to make the @copying information visible.  See  
> http://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/html_node/ 
> insertcopying.html#insertcopying

This command is already used in the Emacs manual, in what I believe is
the way texinfo recommends. It only affects the printed titlepage.

See:

http://www.gnu.org/software/hello/manual/texinfo/GNU-Sample-Texts.html#GNU-Sample-Texts

http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/emacs/doc/emacs/emacs.texi?root=emacs&view=markup

The latter looks consistent with the former AFAICS.

Message #23 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Jesse W <jessw <at> netwood.net>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:28:45 -0800

On Jan 26, 2009, at 10:41 AM, Glenn Morris wrote:
> Jesse W wrote:
>
>> There is a specific texinfo @ command, @insertcopying, which is
>> designed to make the @copying information visible.  See
>> http://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/html_node/
>> insertcopying.html#insertcopying
>
> This command is already used in the Emacs manual, in what I believe is
> the way texinfo recommends. It only affects the printed titlepage.
I'm glad to see that the license grant appears on the printed format; 
however, that doesn't resolve the problem that it's impossible for 
someone reading the plain-text version, or reading the HTML without 
looking at the source, to tell what the license grant is (specifically, 
the inclusion of Invariant Sections).

It is quite feasible to include either the full license grant, or a 
note referring to where it is, by using @ifhtml and @ifplain 
directives.  It may *also* be good to modify the Sample Texts to 
include this, but, the Emacs Manual can be fixed in any case.

Jesse Weinstein

Message #28 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: jessw <at> netwood.net, 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 00:45:11 +0200

> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:41:44 -0500
> Cc: 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com
> 
> Jesse W wrote:
> 
> > There is a specific texinfo @ command, @insertcopying, which is  
> > designed to make the @copying information visible.  See  
> > http://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/html_node/ 
> > insertcopying.html#insertcopying
> 
> This command is already used in the Emacs manual, in what I believe is
> the way texinfo recommends. It only affects the printed titlepage.

It only affects the titlepage because it appears within the @titlepage
block.  To make it appear in the HTML output, not as HTML comment
which is not displayed by the browser, you need @insertcopying in the
body of the manual, inside @ifnottex..@end ifnottex.

Message #33 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Richard M Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: rgm <at> gnu.org, jessw <at> netwood.net
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:59:13 -0500

I suggest talking with the Texinfo maintainer, karl <at> gnu.org, about this.
If the Texinfo manual doesn't give clear and specific advice which settles
your question, then I think some should be added there.

Message #38 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rgm <at> gnu.org, jessw <at> netwood.net,
        karl <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 06:04:41 +0200

> From: Richard M Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> CC: rgm <at> gnu.org, jessw <at> netwood.net
> cc: karl <at> gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:59:13 -0500
> 
> I suggest talking with the Texinfo maintainer, karl <at> gnu.org, about this.
> If the Texinfo manual doesn't give clear and specific advice which settles
> your question, then I think some should be added there.

The Texinfo manual _does_ give clear and specific advice about this:

      We also strongly recommend using `@insertcopying' in the Top node of
    your manual (*note The Top Node::), although it is not required
    legally.  Here's why:

      The `@copying' command itself causes the permissions text to appear
    in an Info file _before_ the first node.  The text is also copied into
    the beginning of each split Info output file, as is legally necessary.
    This location implies a human reading the manual using Info does _not_
    see this text (except when using the advanced Info command `g *').
    Therefore, an explicit `@insertcopying' in the Top node makes it
    apparent to readers that the manual is free.

      Similarly, the `@copying' text is automatically included at the
    beginning of each HTML output file, as an HTML comment.  Again, this
    text is not visible (unless the reader views the HTML source).  And
    therefore again, the `@insertcopying' in the Top node is valuable
    because it makes the copying permissions visible and thus promotes
    freedom.

Message #43 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: karl <at> freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
To: eliz <at> gnu.org
Cc: rms <at> gnu.org, 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rgm <at> gnu.org,
        jessw <at> netwood.net
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:38:18 -0600

    eliz> The Texinfo manual _does_ give clear and specific advice about this:

Yeah.  Here is the message I sent to rms, Stefan, and Chong a few days
ago when rms first pinged me about this.

    jessw <at> netwood.net> Currently, in the displayed HTML of the Emacs
    jessw <at> netwood.net> Manual, there is nothing the specifically says it
    jessw <at> netwood.net> is released under the GFDL
    
    rms [to karl]> Can you fix this and ack?

I can imagine either:

1) adding @insertcopying to the Top node, which is simple but adds ~20
   lines of text (the full copying notice), or

2) adding just a sentence saying to look at the source for the precise
   conditions, something like this:

     This manual is released under the GNU Free Documentation License.
     For the full copying conditions, please view the full source for
     this formatted file (e.g., @code{g*} in Info, View Source in HTML).

Do any of you have a preference for which way to go?

Also, related to this, right now the copying notice does not show up in
the plain text output at all, since there is separate "source" for the
formatted version.  Therefore I think the Top node should include the
following in any case:

@ifplaintext
@insertcopying
@end ifplaintext


Whatever way we go, I guess all the manuals need to follow suit.
Which makes me somewhat want to just use @insertcopying since it is
the simplest thing to do.

karl

Message #48 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Jesse W <jessw <at> netwood.net>
To: karl <at> freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
Cc: rgm <at> gnu.org, eliz <at> gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org, 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:25:37 -0800

On Jan 28, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Karl Berry wrote:
> I can imagine either:
>
> 1) adding @insertcopying to the Top node, which is simple but adds ~20
>    lines of text (the full copying notice), or
>
> 2) adding just a sentence saying to look at the source for the precise
>    conditions, something like this:
>
>      This manual is released under the GNU Free Documentation License.
>      For the full copying conditions, please view the full source for
>      this formatted file (e.g., @code{g*} in Info, View Source in 
> HTML).
>
> Do any of you have a preference for which way to go?
Simply adding @insertcopying seems best to me, but any of the 
alternatives are fine.  If it would help, I'd be happy to make patches 
for the various manuals.

Jesse Weinstein

Message #53 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: karl <at> freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
To: jessw <at> netwood.net, 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 08:37:42 -0600

Jesse,

    Simply adding @insertcopying seems best to me, but any of the 
    alternatives are fine.  If it would help, I'd be happy to make patches 
    for the various manuals.

Since evidently no one else has a strong opinion, I suggest we go with
the plain @insertcopying.  It would be great if you could prepare the
patches.  Thanks.

Message #58 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Jesse W <jessw <at> netwood.net>
To: karl <at> freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
Cc: 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 01:29:44 -0800

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Feb 1, 2009, at 6:37 AM, Karl Berry wrote:
> Since evidently no one else has a strong opinion, I suggest we go with
> the plain @insertcopying.  It would be great if you could prepare the
> patches.  Thanks.
Well, here is a simple patch for emacs.texi.  I hope I did it right, 
please let me know if there's any better way I should do this.

Jesse

[emacs_insertcopying.patch (application/octet-stream, attachment)]

[Message part 3 (text/plain, inline)]

Message #63 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: karl <at> freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
To: jessw <at> netwood.net
Cc: 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 18:05:54 -0600

    Well, here is a simple patch for emacs.texi.  I hope I did it right, 
    please let me know if there's any better way I should do this.

I'm not sure if anyone will see it after the lengthy menu in the Top
node, but if you're happy with it (as the original bug reporter), it's
fine with me.

Can you go through and make the same change to all the other manuals and
send me the diff?

Thanks.

Message #68 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Jesse W <jessw <at> netwood.net>
To: karl <at> freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
Cc: 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 11:03:10 -0800

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On Feb 5, 2009, at 4:05 PM, Karl Berry wrote:
>     Well, here is a simple patch for emacs.texi.  I hope I did it 
> right,
>     please let me know if there's any better way I should do this.
>
> I'm not sure if anyone will see it after the lengthy menu in the Top
> node, but if you're happy with it (as the original bug reporter), it's
> fine with me.
On review, I think you're right.  I was being overly cautious.  Here's 
a patch that puts it right in the opening screenfull, where it 
certainly won't be missed.

[emacs_insertcopying.patch (application/octet-stream, attachment)]

[Message part 3 (text/plain, inline)]

> Can you go through and make the same change to all the other manuals 
> and
> send me the diff?
Certainly.  By "the other manuals" I assume you mean those listed on: 
http://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html -- or is there some other, more 
accessible list?

In any case, just to start, here's a patch for EMMS's manual.

[emms_insertcopying.patch (application/octet-stream, attachment)]

[Message part 5 (text/plain, inline)]

BTW, (I know this should likely be mentioned elsewhere, but...) GNUMP3d 
should probably be noted as being "mothballed" per it's developer's 
comment here: http://www.gnu.org/software/gnump3d/index.html

Glad to help,

Jesse Weinstein

Message #73 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: karl <at> freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
To: jessw <at> netwood.net
Cc: 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 17:02:43 -0600

    On review, I think you're right.  I was being overly cautious.  Here's 
    a patch that puts it right in the opening screenfull, where it 
    certainly won't be missed.

Ok.

    Certainly.  By "the other manuals" I assume you mean those listed on: 
    http://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html -- 

No.  Sorry for not specifying.  I just mean the manuals in the Emacs
distribution, namely those here:
http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/emacs/doc/?root=emacs

(There are many individual manuals in the misc/ subdir.)

Dealing with manuals in other distributions has to be done separately,
through their respective maintainers/bug lists.  If you want to take
that on, that would be great.

    BTW, (I know this should likely be mentioned elsewhere, but...) GNUMP3d 
    should probably be noted as being "mothballed" per it's developer's 
    comment here: http://www.gnu.org/software/gnump3d/index.html

Hmm, thanks for mentioning it.  I guess I'll be writing to its maintainer.

Message #78 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Jesse W <jessw <at> netwood.net>
To: karl <at> freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
Cc: 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 11:38:37 -0800

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Whew, that was a lot of files...

On Feb 6, 2009, at 3:02 PM, Karl Berry wrote:
> No.  Sorry for not specifying.  I just mean the manuals in the Emacs
> distribution, namely those here:
> http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/emacs/doc/?root=emacs
>
> (There are many individual manuals in the misc/ subdir.)
Oh, /those/ manuals... ;-)  OK, here they are.

calc.texi had the copyright date line repeated on the title page, so I 
removed the redundant one.

dbus.texi already included @insertcopying, as far back as its initial 
revision about a year ago.

erc.texi is the same.

faq.texi isn't under the GFDL, rather it's under a vague copyleft 
statement, with copyright dates going back to 1990.

gnus-faq.texi claims to be generated from an XML file, which I can't 
find (the given URL breaks, the gnus.org site does not appear to have 
the purported XML file visible anywhere..), so I'm leaving that one 
aside for now.

gnus-news.texi is also not under GFDL, and has it's copyright statement 
in a comment, so we'll leave that one alone, too.

gnus.texi already has @insertcopying.

mh-e.texi is dual-licensed under the GFDL 1.3+ and the GPL 3+, and 
already has @insertcopying.

org.texi already has @insertcopying.

remember.texi does too.

smtpmail.texi also.

tramp.texi has @insertcopying at the bottom of the Top node.

trampver.texi isn't exactly a manual, and has it's license statement in 
a comment; ignoring.

Quite a few of them repeated a descriptive line in @copying and in the 
top of the Top node; I removed the repeats where I saw them.

And that's it...  all the others are included in the big-pile-o-patch 
attached below.

[emacs_misc_manuals_insertcopying.patch (application/octet-stream, attachment)]

[Message part 3 (text/plain, inline)]

> Dealing with manuals in other distributions has to be done separately,
> through their respective maintainers/bug lists.  If you want to take
> that on, that would be great.
OK, I'll see what I can do.  Do you have any suggestions about which 
projects would be most receptive?

Jesse Weinstein

Message #83 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: karl <at> freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
To: jessw <at> netwood.net
Cc: 1988 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:50:58 -0600

    And that's it...  all the others are included in the big-pile-o-patch 
    attached below.

Thanks.  I finally made the changes, inserting some @ifnottex's,
consistently putting the @insertcopying at the end of the Top node, etc.

While I was at it, I made the @contents and @direntry usage consistent too.

    Do you have any suggestions about which 
    projects would be most receptive?

I expect any project will be receptive if you send an actual patch.
I've sent a lot of patches to a lot of Texinfo manuals over the years
and they've never been anything but gratefully received :).

Message #88 received at 1988 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Jesse W <jessw <at> netwood.net>
To: karl <at> freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
Subject: Re: bug#1988: Making the license statement visible in the Emacs Manual (Modified by Jesse W)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:09:31 -0800

On Feb 16, 2009, at 9:50 AM, Karl Berry wrote:
> Thanks.  I finally made the changes, inserting some @ifnottex's,
> consistently putting the @insertcopying at the end of the Top node, 
> etc.
>
> While I was at it, I made the @contents and @direntry usage consistent 
> too.
All the changes look good, and thanks for making them -- but you missed 
changing the main manual, emacs.texi.

> I expect any project will be receptive if you send an actual patch.
Great -- I'll start running down the list...

Jesse Weinstein
(forgot to send to the bug, originally)

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