From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 24 22:34:00 2015 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2015 03:34:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55537 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFDxY-0004vo-0f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jan 2015 22:34:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36154) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFDxW-0004vX-1J for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jan 2015 22:33:58 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFDxP-0008Hw-SW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jan 2015 22:33:52 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:52968) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFDxP-0008Hs-PV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jan 2015 22:33:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37876) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFDxO-0003sj-So for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jan 2015 22:33:51 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFDxL-0008HW-MX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jan 2015 22:33:50 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:43001) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YFDxL-0008HQ-Gu for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jan 2015 22:33:47 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t0P3Xjpu018327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 03:33:46 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t0P3Xiei005277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 03:33:45 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t0P3XiP1005242 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 03:33:44 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <733fcda9-19ad-4096-aa8a-7f0f47062ac2@default> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 19:33:46 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 25.0.50; `other-window' doc string should say that by default it selects win in same frame X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) The doc string does not describe the default behavior: select another window in the same frame, if there is one. The doc string refers to the doc for `next-window', for the reader to find out what ALL-FRAMES does - even for the default, nil, case. It is fine to refer to `next-window' for ALL-FRAMES (e.g. for full understanding and for non-interactive use). But surely the default interactive behavior should be described. In GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2014-10-20 on LEG570 Bzr revision: 118168 rgm@gnu.org-20141020195941-icp42t8ttcnud09g Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs CPPFLAGS=3D-DGLYPH_DEBUG=3D1' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 25 11:06:00 2015 Received: (at 19682) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2015 16:06:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56030 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFPhH-00080n-Jy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 11:06:00 -0500 Received: from mtaout24.012.net.il ([80.179.55.180]:39484) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFPhG-00080N-20 for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 11:05:58 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout24.012.net.il by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NIQ00800PK26L00@mtaout24.012.net.il> for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 17:57:44 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NIQ003DWPO7NT40@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 17:57:44 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 18:05:36 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#19682: 25.0.50; `other-window' doc string should say that by default it selects win in same frame In-reply-to: <733fcda9-19ad-4096-aa8a-7f0f47062ac2@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83y4oqrgkv.fsf@gnu.org> References: <733fcda9-19ad-4096-aa8a-7f0f47062ac2@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 19682 Cc: 19682@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 19:33:46 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > > The doc string does not describe the default behavior: select another > window in the same frame, if there is one. > > The doc string refers to the doc for `next-window', for the reader to > find out what ALL-FRAMES does - even for the default, nil, case. > > It is fine to refer to `next-window' for ALL-FRAMES (e.g. for full > understanding and for non-interactive use). But surely the default > interactive behavior should be described. The doc string says: This function uses `next-window' for finding the window to select. The argument ALL-FRAMES has the same meaning as in `next-window', but the MINIBUF argument of `next-window' is always effectively nil. This is a very clear invitation to read the documentation of 'next-window', if the reader cares about which window will be selected. If the reader indeed goes there, she will find there the details of what you wanted her to know. OTOH, many uses of 'other-window' don't really care about the order and the candidates, in which case that argument is of no importance for them. So I see no reason to think this doc strings lacks something important. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 25 12:12:32 2015 Received: (at 19682) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2015 17:12:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56124 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFQjf-0003zy-BV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 12:12:31 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:30669) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFQjd-0003zZ-2y for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 12:12:29 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t0PHCMdW009683 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 25 Jan 2015 17:12:23 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t0PHCL6P005431 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jan 2015 17:12:22 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t0PHCLVD029537; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 17:12:21 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 09:12:23 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#19682: 25.0.50; `other-window' doc string should say that by default it selects win in same frame References: <<733fcda9-19ad-4096-aa8a-7f0f47062ac2@default>> <<83y4oqrgkv.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83y4oqrgkv.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 19682 Cc: 19682@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > The doc string does not describe the default behavior: select another > > window in the same frame, if there is one. > > > > The doc string refers to the doc for `next-window', for the reader to > > find out what ALL-FRAMES does - even for the default, nil, case. > > > > It is fine to refer to `next-window' for ALL-FRAMES (e.g. for full > > understanding and for non-interactive use). But surely the default > > interactive behavior should be described. >=20 > The doc string says: >=20 > This function uses `next-window' for finding the window to > select. The argument ALL-FRAMES has the same meaning as in > `next-window', but the MINIBUF argument of `next-window' is > always effectively nil. >=20 > This is a very clear invitation to read the documentation of > 'next-window', if the reader cares about which window will be > selected. If the reader indeed goes there, she will find there the > details of what you wanted her to know. >=20 > OTOH, many uses of 'other-window' don't really care about the order > and the candidates, in which case that argument is of no importance > for them. >=20 > So I see no reason to think this doc strings lacks something > important. The default interactive behavior should be described clearly, as the first thing in the doc string. Users, especially Lisp users, can read further to discover more information about possible argument values and behavior. But the first thing that needs to be said, very clearly, and preferably without any reference to arguments or other doc strings, is what the default behavior is. It is simple to make this immediately clear to users, and we should do so. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 25 12:49:00 2015 Received: (at 19682) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2015 17:49:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56173 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFRIx-00075w-TP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 12:49:00 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:43365) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFRIv-00075P-3T for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 12:48:58 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NIQ00I00URISE00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:48:49 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NIQ00IHVUTCOX50@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:48:49 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:48:33 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#19682: 25.0.50; `other-window' doc string should say that by default it selects win in same frame In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83ppa2rbta.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 19682 Cc: 19682@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 09:12:23 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 19682@debbugs.gnu.org > > > The doc string says: > > > > This function uses `next-window' for finding the window to > > select. The argument ALL-FRAMES has the same meaning as in > > `next-window', but the MINIBUF argument of `next-window' is > > always effectively nil. > > > > This is a very clear invitation to read the documentation of > > 'next-window', if the reader cares about which window will be > > selected. If the reader indeed goes there, she will find there the > > details of what you wanted her to know. > > > > OTOH, many uses of 'other-window' don't really care about the order > > and the candidates, in which case that argument is of no importance > > for them. > > > > So I see no reason to think this doc strings lacks something > > important. > > The default interactive behavior should be described clearly, > as the first thing in the doc string. Users, especially Lisp > users, can read further to discover more information about > possible argument values and behavior. We are in violent agreement about this. It's just that I think the current doc string does precisely that. > But the first thing that needs to be said, very clearly, and > preferably without any reference to arguments or other doc > strings, is what the default behavior is. It already does. It just doesn't divulge _all_ the details about the selection of the "other" window. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 25 14:05:12 2015 Received: (at 19682) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2015 19:05:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56217 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFSUh-0004rO-KX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 14:05:11 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:41798) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFSUf-0004r1-HF for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 14:05:10 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t0PJ52gs003570 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:05:03 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t0PJ50QE016535 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:05:01 GMT Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t0PJ4xQ9004043; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:04:59 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 11:05:00 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#19682: 25.0.50; `other-window' doc string should say that by default it selects win in same frame References: <> <<83ppa2rbta.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83ppa2rbta.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 19682 Cc: 19682@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > But the first thing that needs to be said, very clearly, and > > preferably without any reference to arguments or other doc > > strings, is what the default behavior is. >=20 > It already does. It just doesn't divulge _all_ the details about the > selection of the "other" window. No, it does not say what the default behavior is. It does not tell you that, by default, it switches to another window in the same frame. That's all that is missing. If you don't want to say that, so be it. I am not asking for a description of "_all_ the details about the selection of the "other" window." I am asking that you say what the other window is by default. Just the information that it is in the same frame is sufficient here. Beyond that, referring to `next-window' for details (including, e.g., which window in the same frame) is fine. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 25 14:26:39 2015 Received: (at 19682) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2015 19:26:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56232 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFSpT-0005mU-41 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 14:26:39 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:54545) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFSpP-0005m4-TP for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 14:26:37 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NIQ00G00Z5MS400@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 21:26:27 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NIQ00GE1ZC3QA40@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 21:26:27 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 21:26:12 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#19682: 25.0.50; `other-window' doc string should say that by default it selects win in same frame In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83iofur7aj.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 19682 Cc: 19682@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 11:05:00 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 19682@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > But the first thing that needs to be said, very clearly, and > > > preferably without any reference to arguments or other doc > > > strings, is what the default behavior is. > > > > It already does. It just doesn't divulge _all_ the details about the > > selection of the "other" window. > > No, it does not say what the default behavior is. It does not > tell you that, by default, it switches to another window in > the same frame. It also doesn't say how that window gets selected, out of all the other windows on that frame. Readers who need those details are invited to read about 'next-window', because that's the window they will get. > I am not asking for a description of "_all_ the details about the > selection of the "other" window." > > I am asking that you say what the other window is by default. I don't see why this single details matters more than the others. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 25 18:40:20 2015 Received: (at 19682) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2015 23:40:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56321 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFWmx-0004Pf-LA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 18:40:20 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:32773) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFWms-0004PI-IZ for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 18:40:15 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id t0PNe8D4018262 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 25 Jan 2015 23:40:08 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t0PNe7an027474 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jan 2015 23:40:08 GMT Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id t0PNe7Fd014090; Sun, 25 Jan 2015 23:40:07 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1c4fcb28-17c3-48a6-81c2-c21376e5ac11@default> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 15:40:08 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#19682: 25.0.50; `other-window' doc string should say that by default it selects win in same frame References: <> <<83iofur7aj.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83iofur7aj.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8.2 (807160) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 19682 Cc: 19682@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > I don't see why this single details matters more than the others. That is apparently, the problem here - you don't see it. The answer to "Why?" is that this information is very useful and yet not obvious. This is the primary use case for the command - hence the chosen default behavior. A user looking for a command that cycles among all windows in the same frame will not necessarily understand, immediately upon reading `C-h f other-window', that that is what this command does. The only way for a user to discover that this is the case, by default, is to read through the relatively esoteric and much rarer use-case descriptions involving all of the following: 1. The `other-window' _window parameter_, something that is not even mentioned in the Emacs manual (and rightfully so). (It is of course mentioned in the Elisp manual, though you will find that even there (node `Window Parameters') nothing is really said about what that parameter is (!), what its possible values are, or how it is used - another doc bug, IMO. Nothing is really said in node `Window Parameters' about what window parameters are, AFAICT. The example of parameter `other-window' is typical here: All that is said about it in `Window Parameters' is that it "affects the execution of `other-window'" (really? how?). The xref'd node (`Cyclic Window Ordering') and this node just pass the ball back and forth without, either of them, actually explaining anything.) 2. The (even rarer) possibility that window parameter `other-window' can be a function. (Again, nothing is said here or in the Elisp manual about where or how that function is used.) 3. Non-option variable `ignore-window-parameters' (again, something (rightfully) not even mentioned in the Emacs manual). 4. Window parameter `no-other-window'. (Again,...) After trying to understand all of that, our poor reader finally gets to a reference to function `next-window' and its possible arguments. And after following that cross-reference and reading all about parameters ALL-FRAMES and MINIBUF she will (hopefully) finally grasp that command `other-window', by default, cycles among the windows of the selected frame. FWIW, the doc string from Emacs 20 was not deficient in this regard, so this but is in fact a (minor) regression. In Emacs 20, `C-h f other-window' tells you this: ,---- | other-window is an interactive built-in function. |=20 | Select the ARG'th different window on this frame. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | All windows on current frame are arranged in a cyclic order. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | This command selects the window ARG steps away in that order. | A negative ARG moves in the opposite order. If the optional | second argument ALL_FRAMES is non-nil, cycle through all frames. |=20 | (other-window ARG &optional ALL-FRAMES) `---- That follows the usual (traditional) approach in Emacs: The first line tells you about the default behavior. It does not try to provide an overview of all possible behavior. And it is fine if later sentences then qualify that initial description, even contradicting it to some extent where it might oversimplify. Contrast that with the first sentence for Emacs 25: "Select another window in cyclic ordering of windows." That suggests that someone wanted the sentence to cover all, or nearly all, possible behaviors. The result is that, at least without some further statement about the default behavior, users learn less than they should about the most important thing to learn: the default behavior. --- But it seems clear that there is little sense in continuing the dialog. I don't think I can say anything more than I have to persuade you, and you have apparently made up your mind not to see further. Thank you for anyway taking the time to think about it. I know that you, too, are busy with other, and more important, things. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 26 01:30:42 2015 Received: (at 19682) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Jan 2015 06:30:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56489 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFdC6-0000Sm-7D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 01:30:42 -0500 Received: from mtaout25.012.net.il ([80.179.55.181]:54325) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YFdC3-0000Qk-8S for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 01:30:40 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout25.012.net.il by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NIR00300TUTNI00@mtaout25.012.net.il> for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 08:25:46 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NIR00G1DTUYCYB0@mtaout25.012.net.il>; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 08:25:46 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 08:30:18 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#19682: 25.0.50; `other-window' doc string should say that by default it selects win in same frame In-reply-to: <1c4fcb28-17c3-48a6-81c2-c21376e5ac11@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <837fwaqcjp.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83iofur7aj.fsf@gnu.org> <1c4fcb28-17c3-48a6-81c2-c21376e5ac11@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 19682 Cc: 19682@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 15:40:08 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 19682@debbugs.gnu.org > > > I don't see why this single details matters more than the others. > > That is apparently, the problem here - you don't see it. > > The answer to "Why?" is that this information is very useful and > yet not obvious. It's not obvious, I agree. But I don't think it's very useful, except in very specific and IMO quite rare situations. > A user looking for a command that cycles among all windows in > the same frame will not necessarily understand, immediately upon > reading `C-h f other-window', that that is what this command does. If she doesn't care, she doesn't need to understand. If she does, there are enough hints in the doc string to suggest that reading the doc string of next-window will explain those details. > After trying to understand all of that, our poor reader finally > gets to a reference to function `next-window' and its possible > arguments. Nothing wrong with that. And possibly, an inquisitive enough reader will discover that even earlier, perhaps much earlier. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 30 12:44:14 2016 Received: (at 19682) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2016 16:44:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58145 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awY06-0005pa-Mt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:44:14 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:58561) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awY04-0005pS-Ta for 19682@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:44:13 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awY02-0004Sh-7O; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 18:44:12 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#19682: 25.0.50; `other-window' doc string should say that by default it selects win in same frame References: <83ppa2rbta.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 18:44:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83ppa2rbta.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:48:33 +0200") Message-ID: <87fuu3gi7a.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 19682 Cc: 19682@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> The default interactive behavior should be described clearly, >> as the first thing in the doc string. Users, especially Lisp >> users, can read further to discover more information about >> possible argument values and behavior. > > We are in violent agreement about this. It's just that I think the > current doc string does precisely that. Me too. Closing. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 30 12:44:22 2016 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2016 16:44:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58148 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awY0D-0005pw-U6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:44:22 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:58569) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awY0B-0005po-Kk for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 12:44:19 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awY09-0004St-G2 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 18:44:19 +0200 Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 18:44:17 +0200 Message-Id: <87eg9ngi72.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #19682 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) close 19682 From unknown Sat Aug 16 21:12:43 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 29 May 2016 11:24:12 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator