GNU bug report logs - #18844
Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line.

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in mode line.
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:53:32 +0000

Hello, Emacs.

With the "latest" trunk (of about 2014-10-26 08:00 GMT), start emacs -Q.
Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second.  The word "setq" is
spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.

This happens on both ttys and GUIs, at least on GNU systems.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Message #8 received at 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
To: 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in
 mode line 
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 16:00:47 +0000

>>>>> Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de> writes:

 > With the "latest" trunk (of about 2014-10-26 08:00 GMT), start emacs
 > -Q.  Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second.  The word "setq" is
 > spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.

 > This happens on both ttys and GUIs, at least on GNU systems.

	By a chance, does it still happen if you disable
	global-eldoc-mode?

-- 
FSF associate member #7257  http://boycottsystemd.org/  … 3013 B6A0 230E 334A

Message #11 received at 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>
To: Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Cc: 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in
 mode	line
Date: 26 Oct 2014 16:12:27 -0000

In article <mailman.12084.1414339274.1147.bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org> you wrote:
>>>>>> Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de> writes:

> > With the "latest" trunk (of about 2014-10-26 08:00 GMT), start emacs
> > -Q.  Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second.  The word "setq" is
> > spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.

> > This happens on both ttys and GUIs, at least on GNU systems.

>        By a chance, does it still happen if you disable
>        global-eldoc-mode?

:-)  If I disable global-eldoc-mode, the problem goes away.

> -- 
> FSF associate member #7257  http://boycottsystemd.org/  ? 3013 B6A0 230E 334A

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Message #14 received at 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>
Cc: 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in
 mode	line.
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 18:23:15 +0200

> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:53:32 +0000
> From: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>
> 
> With the "latest" trunk (of about 2014-10-26 08:00 GMT), start emacs -Q.
> Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second.  The word "setq" is
> spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.

It's a feature: Emacs shows you some minimal documentation on what you
type.

Message #17 received at 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in
 mode line
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 09:32:45 -0700 (PDT)

>  > -Q.  Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second.  The word
>  > "setq" is spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.
> 
>  > This happens on both ttys and GUIs, at least on GNU systems.

It happens on MS Windows also.
 
> 	By a chance, does it still happen if you disable
> 	global-eldoc-mode?

That gets rid of it; thanks.  Please turn this OFF by default.

This was pushed onto the trunk before any real discussion.  Limited
discussion ensued - about the missing doc for it - AFTER the fact:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg01771.html

And in that discussion, Stefan said clearly that "this change in
behavior was not intended."  There was no real discussion of this
mode-line takeover.  As Eli said there, "I don't think turning this
on by default in eval-minibuffer was ever seriously discussed."
And Stefan concurred, saying that the only discussion was "about
making eldoc work in the minibuffer, not about enabling it."

But after that, in the same thread, Stefan said, "Feel free to add
it as soon as we re-open the trunk for changes."  Just add it - no
discussion.  Dommage.

Someone's favorite shiny new toy should not be foisted on all
users as changed default behavior.  It took decades for
`transient-mark-mode' to finally be turned on by default, after
*much* discussion in emacs-devel.  Should have happened a lot
sooner, yes(!) - but still only after a thorough discussion.
`delete-selection-mode' as default is still probably years off.

Why should this mode-line takeover be imposed suddenly with no
real discussion?  Never would have happened in "the good ol'
days".

It is not hard for a user to turn such behavior ON, if desired.
Why should it now be the default?  Have you seen zillions of
users demanding that this be the default behavior or something?
Did you take a user poll, as RMS would likely advise?

What is behind this, besides someone's desire to impose personal
preferences on everyone?

Let those who want to try it turn it on and experiment with it.
Maybe after a few years we can discuss whether it merits being
turned on by default, if many people clearly are using it at
that point.  Turning it on now without discussion is premature
and anti-user/community.

Message #20 received at 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>
Cc: 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in
 mode	line.
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 09:33:59 -0700 (PDT)

> > With the "latest" trunk (of about 2014-10-26 08:00 GMT), start
> > emacs -Q. Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second.  The word
> > "setq" is spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.
> 
> It's a feature: Emacs shows you some minimal documentation on what
> you type.

One person's feature is another's annoyance.  And not every such is
imposed as the default behavior, out of the blue.

Message #23 received at 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in
 mode	line.
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 17:00:59 +0000

Hello, Eli.

On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 06:23:15PM +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:53:32 +0000
> > From: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>

> > With the "latest" trunk (of about 2014-10-26 08:00 GMT), start emacs -Q.
> > Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second.  The word "setq" is
> > spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.

> It's a feature: Emacs shows you some minimal documentation on what you
> type.

Ah.  It's a feature.  It just looks like a bug, and was somewhat
unexpected.

I'll close the bug, then (unless somebody else has already done so).

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Message #26 received at 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>
Cc: 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in
 mode line.
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 13:10:36 -0400

> Type in "M-: (setq" and wait ~half a second.  The word "setq" is
> spuriously echoed at the start of the mode line.

If only "setq" is echoed, then it's a bug.
If "setq: ([SYM VAL]...)" is echoed (or something similar), then it's
a feature.


        Stefan

Message #31 received at 18844-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>
To: 18844-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in
 mode line.
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 17:11:35 +0000

Closed, as it is a feature, not a bug.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Message #34 received at 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in
 mode line
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 16:46:54 +0700

Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:

> That gets rid of it; thanks.  Please turn this OFF by default.

It's a great feature, please keep it on.

We've seen some votes in favor of it already too. If it annoys the
majority of users, we'll see a lot more of dissenting voices.

And Emacs trunk is a good place to experiment with new features, which
won't necesarily make it into release.

> Let those who want to try it turn it on and experiment with it.
> Maybe after a few years we can discuss whether it merits being
> turned on by default, if many people clearly are using it at
> that point.  Turning it on now without discussion is premature
> and anti-user/community.

Nobody really has to use it for a few years to decide if they like it or
not. And there's no need for a years-long discussion about it either,
it's not that big a feature.

Message #37 received at 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Cc: 18844 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#18844: Trunk: typing in minibuffer gets spuriously echoed in
 mode line
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2014 08:25:30 -0700 (PDT)

> > That gets rid of it; thanks.  Please turn this OFF by default.
> 
> It's a great feature, please keep it on.

Even if you, as one user, think it is a great feature, why should
it suddenly be *on by default*.

> We've seen some votes in favor of it already too. If it annoys the
> majority of users, we'll see a lot more of dissenting voices.

*Seen some votes* means nothing.  Not seeing "a lot more" dissenting
voices means nothing also.

> And Emacs trunk is a good place to experiment with new features,
> which won't necesarily make it into release.

People can experiment with new features without Emacs turning them
on by default.  And that is generally what is done.

> > Let those who want to try it turn it on and experiment with it.
> > Maybe after a few years we can discuss whether it merits being
> > turned on by default, if many people clearly are using it at
> > that point.  Turning it on now without discussion is premature
> > and anti-user/community.
> 
> Nobody really has to use it for a few years to decide if they like
> it or not. 

Right.  But a user deciding whether s?he likes it or not is not
what this is about, is it?  You are requesting that this be turned
for *all* users, by *default*.

> And there's no need for a years-long discussion about it
> either, it's not that big a feature.

It's not that big a feature => don't turn it on by default.

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