From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:09:51 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#18005: 24.4.50; In Emacs manual, tell users how to enter debugger for `user-error' errors Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 18:01:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 18005 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 18005@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.140518803918410 (code B ref -1); Sat, 12 Jul 2014 18:01:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2014 18:00:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40794 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X61bB-0004mq-Bc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 14:00:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36888) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X61b8-0004mb-Nl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 14:00:35 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X61au-0000EL-8u for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 14:00:28 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:60253) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X61au-0000EH-6W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 14:00:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38300) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X61am-0007uL-K0 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 14:00:20 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X61ae-0008N4-9k for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 14:00:12 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:21973) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X61ae-0008Ju-3W for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 14:00:04 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s6CI01US014274 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 18:00:02 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s6CHxxGN029951 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 18:00:00 GMT Received: from abhmp0015.oracle.com (abhmp0015.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s6CHxxO1029948 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 17:59:59 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6261d1cf-2fa0-48a4-a8f0-0727d270c0f2@default> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) The only hint about how to make Emacs enter the debugger for errors deemed `user-error' is this mention, buried in the `debug-ignored-errors' entry of the Elisp manual: The normal value of this variable includes `user-error', as well as several errors that happen often during editing but rarely result from bugs in Lisp programs. However, "rarely" is not "never"; if your program fails with an error that matches this list, you may try changing this list to debug the error. The easiest way is usually to set `debug-ignored-errors' to `nil'. (FWIW, wrt this text: Is it really necessary to point out that users can want to enter the debugger for other reasons that tracking down a Lisp bug?) It should be made *obvious* to users, in the *Emacs* manual, how to make the debugger open for so-called "user errors". In particular, some mention of how to do this should be added to any descriptions of `debug-on-error' and `toggle-debug-on-error'. Yes, *especially* since these have NO effect on this. Users will try these and not understand how to get what they want in this regard. Here is one proof: http://superuser.com/q/782313/250462. (Hard to believe that something presumably designed with end users in mind would not be documented wrt how to access the debugger. Of course, `user-error' has NOTHING to do with user errors anyway...) In GNU Emacs 24.4.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2014-06-28 on ODIEONE Bzr revision: 117431 rgm@gnu.org-20140628015517-eku6hj8mpgcvfnso Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/Devel/emacs/snapshot/trunk --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3' LDFLAGS=3D-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib 'CPPFLAGS=3D-DGC_MCHECK=3D1 -Ic:/Devel/emacs/include'' From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:09:51 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#18005: 24.4.50; In Emacs manual, tell users how to enter debugger for `user-error' errors Resent-From: Glenn Morris Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 01:36:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 18005 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 18005@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 18005-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B18005.140521533521281 (code B ref 18005); Sun, 13 Jul 2014 01:36:02 +0000 Received: (at 18005) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2014 01:35:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53319 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X68hS-0005XA-FD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 21:35:34 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:38358 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X68hQ-0005X1-A4 for 18005@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 21:35:32 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X68hP-0007dt-Eq; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 21:35:31 -0400 From: Glenn Morris References: <6261d1cf-2fa0-48a4-a8f0-0727d270c0f2@default> X-Spook: benelux IMF New World Order militia FSF Indigo import Mena X-Ran: ANNT@V?t-q=q1=[ugC2CbBD}CRErzW9k^ge?&Iw{ X-Hue: red X-Attribution: GM Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 21:35:31 -0400 In-Reply-To: <6261d1cf-2fa0-48a4-a8f0-0727d270c0f2@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 12 Jul 2014 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <0ztx6mm464.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) The whole point of introducing user-error was so that uninteresting errors will not trigger the debugger. I see no need to mention in the *Emacs* manual how to get round this. (I am not going to get into a big debate about this.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 12 21:36:11 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2014 01:36:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53327 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X68i2-0005Yn-T1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 21:36:11 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:38406 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X68i0-0005Yd-Bh for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 21:36:08 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X68i0-0007yM-3r for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 21:36:08 -0400 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 21:36:08 -0400 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 18005 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) tag 18005 wontfix From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:09:51 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#18005: 24.4.50; In Emacs manual, tell users how to enter debugger for `user-error' errors Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 02:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 18005 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Glenn Morris , 18005@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 18005-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B18005.140521929032282 (code B ref 18005); Sun, 13 Jul 2014 02:42:01 +0000 Received: (at 18005) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2014 02:41:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53373 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X69jG-0008Ob-0I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 22:41:30 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:40144) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X69jC-0008ON-E5 for 18005@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2014 22:41:26 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s6D2fJCT025922 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 13 Jul 2014 02:41:20 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s6D2fHGP005375 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 13 Jul 2014 02:41:18 GMT Received: from abhmp0015.oracle.com (abhmp0015.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s6D2fGUK004519; Sun, 13 Jul 2014 02:41:16 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 19:41:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <6261d1cf-2fa0-48a4-a8f0-0727d270c0f2@default> <0ztx6mm464.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <0ztx6mm464.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) > The whole point of introducing user-error was so that uninteresting > errors will not trigger the debugger. I see no need to mention in the > *Emacs* manual how to get round this. "The whole point" should be to _let_ users not be bothered entering the debugger for uninteresting errors. That's reasonable behavior. *Enabling* that behavior is positive. Forcing it would be counterproductive, as is not making clear what it is that controls it. Not to mention the fact that what constitutes an "uninteresting error" is not something fixed once and for all for everyone. It can change, depending on the context. A user might well want to take a look under the covers using the debugger in some context. (The user who just now asked how to do it, for instance.) > (I am not going to get into a big debate about this.) No one asked you to. From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:09:51 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#18005: 24.4.50; In Emacs manual, tell users how to enter debugger for `user-error' errors Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 21:55:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 18005 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Drew Adams Cc: rgm@gnu.org, 18005@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 18005-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B18005.140528847126870 (code B ref 18005); Sun, 13 Jul 2014 21:55:02 +0000 Received: (at 18005) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2014 21:54:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53943 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X6Rj5-0006zJ-1M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Jul 2014 17:54:31 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:50224 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X6Rj0-0006z3-Ft for 18005@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 13 Jul 2014 17:54:27 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X6Riy-0004mT-2h; Sun, 13 Jul 2014 17:54:24 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 17:54:24 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Sat, 12 Jul 2014 19:41:13 -0700 (PDT)) References: <6261d1cf-2fa0-48a4-a8f0-0727d270c0f2@default> <0ztx6mm464.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] "The whole point" should be to _let_ users not be bothered entering the debugger for uninteresting errors. That's reasonable behavior. *Enabling* that behavior is positive. Forcing it would be counterproductive, as is not making clear what it is that controls it. I agree. Not to mention the fact that what constitutes an "uninteresting error" is not something fixed once and for all for everyone. It can change, depending on the context. A user might well want to take a look under the covers using the debugger in some context. (The user who just now asked how to do it, for instance.) I have several times wanted to enter the debugger because a program triggered one of these errors which usually is caused by bad user input. So I used the feature to enable that. There should continue to be a convenient feature to enable that. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:09:51 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#18005: 24.4.50; In Emacs manual, tell users how to enter debugger for `user-error' errors Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 21:52:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 18005 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Drew Adams Cc: 18005@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 18005-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B18005.14619666898456 (code B ref 18005); Fri, 29 Apr 2016 21:52:01 +0000 Received: (at 18005) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2016 21:51:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55994 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awGJs-0002CK-Ts for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:51:29 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:51166) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awGJq-0002CB-RP for 18005@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:51:27 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awGJn-0003Op-SW; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 23:51:25 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <6261d1cf-2fa0-48a4-a8f0-0727d270c0f2@default> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 23:51:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: <6261d1cf-2fa0-48a4-a8f0-0727d270c0f2@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 12 Jul 2014 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87twiknkx0.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Drew Adams writes: > The only hint about how to make Emacs enter the debugger for errors > deemed `user-error' is this mention, buried in the > `debug-ignored-errors' entry of the Elisp manual: > > The normal value of this variable includes `user-error', as well > as several errors that happen often during editing but rarely > result from bugs in Lisp programs. However, "rarely" is not > "never"; if your program fails with an error that matches this > list, you may try changing this list to debug the error. The > easiest way is usually to set `debug-ignored-errors' to `nil'. > > (FWIW, wrt this text: Is it really necessary to point out that > users can want to enter the debugger for other reasons that > tracking down a Lisp bug?) > > It should be made *obvious* to users, in the *Emacs* manual, how to make > the debugger open for so-called "user errors". I think this belongs in the elisp manual, and the explanation there is fine. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 29 17:51:32 2016 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2016 21:51:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55997 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awGJw-0002Ca-5i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:51:32 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:51173) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awGJv-0002CT-53 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 17:51:31 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awGJs-0003P4-Vf for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 23:51:30 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 23:51:28 +0200 Message-Id: <87shy4nkwv.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #18005 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) close 18005 From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:09:51 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#18005: 24.4.50; In Emacs manual, tell users how to enter debugger for `user-error' errors Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 22:55:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 18005 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 18005@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 18005-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B18005.14619704488230 (code B ref 18005); Fri, 29 Apr 2016 22:55:02 +0000 Received: (at 18005) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2016 22:54:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56152 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awHIW-00028f-1W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 18:54:08 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:21745) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awHIV-00028J-8v for 18005@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 18:54:07 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u3TMs08p006743 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 29 Apr 2016 22:54:01 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3TMrxbu017961 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 29 Apr 2016 22:54:00 GMT Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3TMrwut003544; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 22:53:59 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:53:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <6261d1cf-2fa0-48a4-a8f0-0727d270c0f2@default> <87twiknkx0.fsf@gnus.org> In-Reply-To: <87twiknkx0.fsf@gnus.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > The only hint about how to make Emacs enter the debugger for errors > > deemed `user-error' is this mention, buried in the > > `debug-ignored-errors' entry of the Elisp manual: > > > > The normal value of this variable includes `user-error', as well > > as several errors that happen often during editing but rarely > > result from bugs in Lisp programs. However, "rarely" is not > > "never"; if your program fails with an error that matches this > > list, you may try changing this list to debug the error. The > > easiest way is usually to set `debug-ignored-errors' to `nil'. > > > > (FWIW, wrt this text: Is it really necessary to point out that > > users can want to enter the debugger for other reasons that > > tracking down a Lisp bug?) > > > > It should be made *obvious* to users, in the *Emacs* manual, how to mak= e > > the debugger open for so-called "user errors". >=20 > I think this belongs in the elisp manual, and the explanation there is > fine. I disagree (like RMS). How to enter the debugger, including for "user" errors, is not information we should bury. It should be mentioned in the Emacs manual, with a link to the Elisp manual for more info.