From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:25:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: report 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B.12307617569809 (code B ref -1); Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:25:04 +0000 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 31 Dec 2008 22:15:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.0 tests=FVGT_m_MULTI_ODD autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mBVMFrtb009803 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:15:54 -0800 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:54840) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LI9Ky-0004Y4-I0 for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:14:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LI9Ly-0004Rg-VH for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:15:52 -0500 Received: from rcsinet13.oracle.com ([148.87.113.125]:39745 helo=rgminet13.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LI9Ly-0004RW-7s for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:15:50 -0500 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mBVMGOpe019273 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:16:25 GMT Received: from acsmt707.oracle.com (acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mBVM9iHh029119 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:09:45 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:15:43 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:15:46 -0800 Message-ID: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AclrlVP3DPuJbLvSQfazuoG2vnyNvg== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.495BEF11.0124:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) This is a regression wrt Emacs 20, 21, and 22. 1. Put this code in a file named `bug-tool-bar.el': (tool-bar-mode -1) (defvar my-minibuffer-frame nil "") (defun foo () "" (interactive) (setq default-frame-alist (append (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1)) default-frame-alist)) (setq pop-up-frames t pop-up-frame-alist (append default-frame-alist pop-up-frame-alist)) (setq minibuffer-frame-alist (append (list (cons 'minibuffer 'only)) minibuffer-frame-alist)) (if my-minibuffer-frame (modify-frame-parameters my-minibuffer-frame (list (cons 'minibuffer 'only))) (setq my-minibuffer-frame (let ((after-make-frame-functions nil)) (make-frame (list (cons 'minibuffer 'only))))))) It doesn't matter where the (tool-bar-mode -1) is, and you could alternatively leave it out altogether and then do `M-x tool-bar-mode' to turn it off (step 3). 2. Start Emacs this way: runemacs.exe -Q --debug-init -l "bug-tool-bar.el" -f "foo" You get one frame with buffer *scratch* and a standalone minibuffer frame. Neither frame has a tool bar. However, `tool-bar-mode' is t - it should be nil. You can see this by typing `tool-bar-mode' in buffer *scratch* and using `C-x C-e'. 3. Optional step: `M-x tool-bar-mode'. This turns off tool-bar mode, though it should already have been off because of the code in `bug-tool-bar.el'. 4. Do `C-x 4 f some-file.el'. The file is visited in a new frame, and the frame has a tool bar. And tool-bar mode is now on. And this is so regardless of whether you skip step 3. The mode should remain off, and no tool bar should be shown. In GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2008-12-30 on LENNART-69DE564 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (3.4) --no-opt --cflags -Ic:/g/include -fno-crossjumping' From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Chong Yidong , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Chong Yidong Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 03:15:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123077914518133 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 03:15:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 03:05:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from cyd.mit.edu (CYD.MIT.EDU [18.115.2.24]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0135hGn018127 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 19:05:44 -0800 Received: by cyd.mit.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DA64E57E211; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:05:45 -0500 (EST) From: Chong Yidong To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:05:45 -0500 Message-ID: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Arguably, Emacs 23 is now doing the right thing. Your default-frame-alist specifies a tool-bar-lines frame parameter of 1, which means the tool-bar should be enabled in new frames. If you remove that frame parameter from your default-frame-alist, or set it to 0, new frames will not show a tool-bar. I am not 100% sure why previous version of Emacs did not show the tool-bar, but they probably ought to have. Possibly it's because we now set up the contents of the tool-bar at startup even if the initial frame cannot or does not display it (a change required by the new multi-tty functionality). From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 05:25:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123078705118272 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 05:25:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 05:17:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA autolearn=no version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from acsinet11.oracle.com (acsinet11.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n015HSTU018266 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:17:30 -0800 Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by acsinet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n015IkiI017871 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 1 Jan 2009 05:18:47 GMT Received: from acsmt707.oracle.com (acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n015HrlT013104; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 05:17:55 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.134.5) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 05:17:18 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Chong Yidong'" Cc: <1754@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:17:19 -0800 Message-ID: <006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> Thread-Index: AclrvfrzdiZgpZO6QamZOO3HfcPNKQAENv3A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A010208.495C51E0.005A:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > Arguably, Emacs 23 is now doing the right thing. Your > default-frame-alist specifies a tool-bar-lines frame parameter of 1, > which means the tool-bar should be enabled in new frames. If > you remove that frame parameter from your default-frame-alist, or set it > to 0, new frames will not show a tool-bar. > > I am not 100% sure why previous version of Emacs did not show the > tool-bar, but they probably ought to have. Possibly it's > because we now set up the contents of the tool-bar at startup even if the > initial frame cannot or does not display it (a change required by > the new multi-tty functionality). Huh? Why is that the right thing? The default-frame-alist is set before turning off tool-bar-mode. Turning off the mode should turn off the mode everywhere, until you turn it back on - and it should change the value of default-frame-alist - which it does, except in the scenario I gave. The default-frame-alist doesn't override the current setting of any modes. It must not. It is simply a default setting. On the contrary - changing a mode such as tool-bar-mode or menu-bar-mode should (and generally does) change the value of default-frame-alist. Tool-bar-mode is global and applies to all frames and future frames. That has always been the case and should continue to be the case. What would be the point of having such a mode if the original default frame alist overrode it? Look at menu-bar-mode. It's exactly the same type of thing. But menu-bar-mode acts normally, as it always has acted and as tool-bar-mode should also act. And tool-bar-mode DOES act correctly, except in the scenario I gave, with pop-up-frames non-nil, pop-up-frame-alist as I gave it, and a standalone minibuffer frame. If you don't have all three of those, then turning off (or on) tool-bar-mode, just like turning off (or on) menu-bar-mode, changes the value of default-frame-alist to reflect the mode change, as it should. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Chong Yidong , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Chong Yidong Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 07:10:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123079340511957 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 07:10:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 07:03:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from cyd.mit.edu (CYD.MIT.EDU [18.115.2.24]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0173Ijw011950 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:03:19 -0800 Received: by cyd.mit.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0C7BE57E211; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 02:03:21 -0500 (EST) From: Chong Yidong To: "Drew Adams" Cc: <1754@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> <006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 02:03:21 -0500 In-Reply-To: <006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:17:19 -0800") Message-ID: <87zlibtsna.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Drew Adams" writes: > Huh? Why is that the right thing? Because your function `foo' tells Emacs to add a tool-bar to new frames. Here is a much, much simpler version of your "bug": In foo.el; (tool-bar-mode -1) (defun foo () (interactive) (setq default-frame-alist (append (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1)) default-frame-alist))) emacs -Q -l "foo.el" -f "foo" When foo.el is loaded, that turns off tool-bar-mode (internally, this works by modifying default-frame-alist and changing the frame parameter `tool-bar-lines' to 0). Next, the function `foo' is run. That modifies default-frame-alist by adding (tool-bar-lines . 1). So, all new frames get a tool-bar. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Jason Rumney , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Jason Rumney Original-Sender: Jason Rumney Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 07:45:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123079545521403 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 07:45:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 07:37:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. 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([118.101.235.115]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i9sm9912547tid.25.2008.12.31.23.37.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:37:26 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Rumney Message-ID: <495C729A.8080802@f2s.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:36:58 +0800 From: Jason Rumney User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Windows/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Adams , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org CC: "'Chong Yidong'" References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> <006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Drew Adams wrote: > Huh? Why is that the right thing? The default-frame-alist is set before turning > off tool-bar-mode. But you also set tool-bar-lines to 1 in popup-frame-alist, which overrides default-frame-alist for popup frames in any case. tool-bar-mode may override settings in default-frame-alist, but it doesn't go any further than that, as the more specialized -frame-alist settings are probably more important than the global setting of tool-bar-mode. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: grischka , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: grischka Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 13:55:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123081766919006 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 13:55:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 13:47:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n01DljL5019000 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 05:47:47 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 Jan 2009 13:47:39 -0000 Received: from p57A0939B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.1.2]) [87.160.147.155] by mail.gmx.net (mp018) with SMTP; 01 Jan 2009 14:47:39 +0100 X-Authenticated: #18588216 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+j0ncg1u+jisG3Q4s3WjCiqzTUUJ3wWuAkYiPG2M TEVMFb7D7cgG8B Message-ID: <495CC979.3070608@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:47:37 +0100 From: grischka User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jasonr@f2s.com CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: 495C729A.8080802@f2s.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.76 Jason Rumney wrote: > But you also set tool-bar-lines to 1 in popup-frame-alist, which overrides > default-frame-alist for popup frames in any case. tool-bar-mode may override > settings in default-frame-alist, but it doesn't go any further than that, as > the more specialized -frame-alist settings are probably more important than > the global setting of tool-bar-mode. Sorry, but "probably" is not a category that matters with binary logic like whether something is "on" or "off". In this case: As long as it is possible to make a new frame and that frame does not have a toolbar and at the same time typing "M-: tool-bar-mode" in that frame returns t, there is something wrong with it. Not probably, but definitely. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Jason Rumney , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Jason Rumney Original-Sender: Jason Rumney Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:00:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123081794720196 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:00:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 13:52:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ti-out-0910.google.com (ti-out-0910.google.com [209.85.142.190]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n01DqJvD020188 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 05:52:21 -0800 Received: by ti-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b6so4450800tic.1 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 05:52:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IgyIb6ELFCrKUg7dd/3ZRS6q9JsF+nRfCB7ssdYPwwA=; b=ixPXLpjZkE7n5NI2SDXifEBqJFCSN0/dTZznIpibRjpTiP0awcTmSGGFFnoJIo+z7x 6r9bKlJtOiJmhCy2LO1uMjT88BMpm6/5hqS1IPk+P6bmoVGgtEA0qMqcYjeSFxduedoe DGQHtDaFz4CHA6nYGZb/wyvdHwWKdrKfh67gw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=uVvpV6l5gZd68GP1soaqMFk8o0IoOHH1AoYxVvKrBnXby0rjuh+nNYMt/VkryuL9nX tt2U158ksG2yu6Id5xA1L6eY5nm6K2475r8vl+svhkmyfzBbnyOn/ngL+ciOPRcF6e6I PAeqdxN04EvhLlSA37qFuigTdnSsapeLCZvZ8= Received: by 10.110.17.6 with SMTP id 6mr1715064tiq.41.1230817939099; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 05:52:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.249.27? ([118.101.235.115]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 14sm4091806tim.10.2009.01.01.05.52.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 05:52:18 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Rumney Message-ID: <495CCA75.1020808@f2s.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:51:49 +0800 From: Jason Rumney User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Windows/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: grischka CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: 495C729A.8080802@f2s.com <495CC979.3070608@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <495CC979.3070608@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit grischka wrote: > Sorry, but "probably" is not a category that matters with binary logic > like > whether something is "on" or "off". Users' personal preferences and the various permutations of *-frame-alist are not binary logic. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: grischka , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: grischka Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:40:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123082024730925 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:40:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 14:30:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n01EUhvs030917 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 06:30:45 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 Jan 2009 14:30:37 -0000 Received: from p57A0939B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.1.2]) [87.160.147.155] by mail.gmx.net (mp002) with SMTP; 01 Jan 2009 15:30:37 +0100 X-Authenticated: #18588216 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/arJ0QkEbafPGuK9OEzDjHWjTj85AF3b5TWlA1dg lklI7ZV8s/fjGg Message-ID: <495CD387.7080102@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:30:31 +0100 From: grischka User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.18 (X11/20081125) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Rumney CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: 495C729A.8080802@f2s.com <495CC979.3070608@gmx.de> <495CCA75.1020808@f2s.com> In-Reply-To: <495CCA75.1020808@f2s.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.78 Jason Rumney wrote: > grischka wrote: >> Sorry, but "probably" is not a category that matters with binary logic >> like whether something is "on" or "off". > > Users' personal preferences and the various permutations of > *-frame-alist are not binary logic. > Maybe users' preferences aren't binary but the ways to express them towards the program are. And the permutations performed by the program are certainly binary too, that doesn't change by the fact that they are maybe not well understood. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:35:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123082358713053 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:35:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 15:26:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER,MIXEDBDN, MURPHY_DRUGS_REL8 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n01FQIpU013047 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 07:26:19 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 Jan 2009 15:26:12 -0000 Received: from 88-117-39-105.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [88.117.39.105]) [88.117.39.105] by mail.gmx.net (mp040) with SMTP; 01 Jan 2009 16:26:12 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/f1g53g6DfYrBVXVo9sTc1UBsZhGGfNcyOhrL0Iq pMd1SnrQFHsFoq Message-ID: <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:24:35 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Adams CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------080806050506040701020005" X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.73,0.6899999999999999 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080806050506040701020005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > (tool-bar-mode -1) [...] > (setq default-frame-alist > (append (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1)) > default-frame-alist)) Inherently, you're painting yourself into a corner by simultaneously demanding and rejecting toolbars. Moreover, that last assignment gets you a second entry for `tool-bar-lines' in `default-frame-alist' (and we have received _lots_ of mails from you complaining about such duplicate entries before). However, you do _not_ set `initial-frame-alist' simultaneously, so you won't get a toolbar for the first frame which is the correct behavior since you have toggled tool-bar-mode off before and only that counts for the initial frame (unless you explicitly override it). Since `default-frame-alist' contains a tool-bar-lines entry you will get a toolbar for future frames which is correct as well. That said, the behavior of Emacs _is_ wrong because it should not say that `tool-bar-mode' is on when there are no toolbars. The reason is that `tool-bar-mode' does (if tool-bar-mode (progn (dolist (frame (frame-list)) (if (display-graphic-p frame) (set-frame-parameter frame 'tool-bar-lines 1))) (if (= 1 (length (default-value 'tool-bar-map))) ; not yet setup (tool-bar-setup))) (modify-all-frames-parameters (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 0))))) so you can easily see that for turning `tool-bar-mode' off, default and initial frame parameters are set. For turning it on, only the parameters of the existing frames are set and _no_ default or initial parameters. Since the `display-graphic-p' test is not useful anyway, I propose the attached patch. Yours truly, martin. --------------080806050506040701020005 Content-Type: text/plain; name="tool-bar.diff" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tool-bar.diff" *** tool-bar.el.~1.22.~ 2008-11-27 07:43:19.062500000 +0100 --- tool-bar.el 2009-01-01 16:20:25.968750000 +0100 *************** *** 54,62 **** :group 'frames (if tool-bar-mode (progn ! (dolist (frame (frame-list)) ! (if (display-graphic-p frame) ! (set-frame-parameter frame 'tool-bar-lines 1))) (if (= 1 (length (default-value 'tool-bar-map))) ; not yet setup (tool-bar-setup))) (modify-all-frames-parameters (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 0))))) --- 54,60 ---- :group 'frames (if tool-bar-mode (progn ! (modify-all-frames-parameters (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1))) (if (= 1 (length (default-value 'tool-bar-map))) ; not yet setup (tool-bar-setup))) (modify-all-frames-parameters (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 0))))) --------------080806050506040701020005-- From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Jason Rumney , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Jason Rumney Original-Sender: Jason Rumney Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:00:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123082521519212 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:00:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 15:53:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ti-out-0910.google.com (ti-out-0910.google.com [209.85.142.184]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n01FrV3e019206 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 07:53:33 -0800 Received: by ti-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b6so4472469tic.1 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 07:53:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tu3/FdW11xGACgTEUve21dCFo3nwyRPSNxAVk0hmjd4=; b=SYhrNWa0pSRT7KKC4uJXrrjwVpl5OliJMHYCg1kqt8u0rqlx/qTzNbLeEAvkrhpU5A /P/gQr1Cqzp6JyXO5KUz3gGIjBVzv5JsC5K79nidGnMZH5GEGYbngXGfX+b5TW5Z6JeA vDirfxuM/uCYuhnf152hEn49S+Lc093VFYAhc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=k4kwDsG4yGVIK8s0T2nm3QzKKBZB3GUpuAcB7p/y0blxaemC6JbCoRbSffMEhNYz++ PpXzOZNOZ32aF02jCcOmKIsW0Jt6OjrdyO/1mikMK4mgHv11m/x4DKNQ0I7GL/+qnNaF lbw3Wde1Fsv/FwIdGOvJU6cYh+wm/QjH6iG2E= Received: by 10.110.15.9 with SMTP id 9mr26171512tio.30.1230825211053; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 07:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.249.27? ([118.101.235.115]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a4sm7381420tib.27.2009.01.01.07.53.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 07:53:30 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Rumney Message-ID: <495CE6DE.3090404@f2s.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 23:53:02 +0800 From: Jason Rumney User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Windows/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org CC: Drew Adams References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit martin rudalics wrote: > Since the `display-graphic-p' test is not useful anyway What makes you say that? Is it already tested before we get to this point? From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:20:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123082623824783 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:20:02 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 16:10:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n01GAY3p024773 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 08:10:36 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 Jan 2009 16:10:28 -0000 Received: from 88-117-45-210.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [88.117.45.210]) [88.117.45.210] by mail.gmx.net (mp031) with SMTP; 01 Jan 2009 17:10:28 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19l3+oNY3Zle+MO8CEd/56dwgI551OKNaNXc4HLPc mT8vUJN61SSKeW Message-ID: <495CEAD4.2060807@gmx.at> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:09:56 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Rumney CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <495CE6DE.3090404@f2s.com> In-Reply-To: <495CE6DE.3090404@f2s.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.78 >> Since the `display-graphic-p' test is not useful anyway > > What makes you say that? Is it already tested before we get to this point? No one hinders people to call `modify-all-frames-parameters' with tool-bar-lines 1. So if we really have to check this, we have to do it in `modify-frame-parameters'. Doing it just in `tool-bar-mode' is not sufficient. martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:35:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12308452955512 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:35:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 21:28:15 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet12.oracle.com (rcsinet12.oracle.com [148.87.113.124]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n01LSCf4005495 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:28:13 -0800 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n01LRlYU019367 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:27:48 GMT Received: from acsmt703.oracle.com (acsmt703.oracle.com [141.146.40.81]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n01LLCla008504; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:21:14 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.134.5) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 13:28:01 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Jason Rumney'" , <1754@debbugs.gnu.org> Cc: "'Chong Yidong'" References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> <006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495C729A.8080802@f2s.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:28:02 -0800 Message-ID: <008601c96c57$d49be1b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <495C729A.8080802@f2s.com> Thread-Index: Aclr49OvOtANyorYRgWh3WfIVeRaWQAU650w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt703.oracle.com [141.146.40.81] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.495D3563.0200:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > > Huh? Why is that the right thing? The default-frame-alist > > is set before turning off tool-bar-mode. > > But you also set tool-bar-lines to 1 in popup-frame-alist, which > overrides default-frame-alist for popup frames in any case. > tool-bar-mode may override settings in default-frame-alist, but it > doesn't go any further than that, as the more specialized > -frame-alist settings are probably more important than the global > setting of tool-bar-mode. Absolutely not. The mode should affect all existing and future frames. That's always been the case, and it is how other, similar modes, such as `menu-bar-mode', work. It has never been the case that some frame alist overrides the current mode value. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:35:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12308453085540 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:35:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 21:28:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MURPHY_DRUGS_REL8 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n01LSPw3005528 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:28:26 -0800 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n01LSuQG023700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:28:58 GMT Received: from acsmt700.oracle.com (acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n01LLQ7a008727; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:21:27 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.134.5) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:28:14 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'martin rudalics'" Cc: <1754@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:28:17 -0800 Message-ID: <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> Thread-Index: AclsJX37ag8MOW/aSIikTxmNaRc8TgALdCbg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.495D3570.0147:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > > (tool-bar-mode -1) > [...] > > (setq default-frame-alist > > (append (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1)) > > default-frame-alist)) > > Inherently, you're painting yourself into a corner by simultaneously > demanding and rejecting toolbars. Moreover, that last assignment gets > you a second entry for `tool-bar-lines' in > `default-frame-alist' (and we have received _lots_ of mails > from you complaining about such duplicate entries before). No, as a result of those "_lots_ of mails" I sent, that bug was finally fixed. No duplicate entries are created by Emacs since 2008-12-31. However, you are correct that the code above creates a second entry for `tool-bar-lines'. That should not be a problem - the first entry is used (it is an alist, after all). That is, there is no corner. The latest change to the parameter `tool-bar-lines' should _always_ prevail - regardless of whether you use `modify-frame-parameters' or (setq default-frame-alist...) or you call `tool-bar-mode'. The problem is, I'm thinking now, that the entry (tool-bar-lines . 1) in `pop-up-frames-alist' is being used for the creation of new frames when `pop-up-frames' is non-nil. If that is happening, it is incorrect behavior, on two counts: 1. `tool-bar-mode' should be modal and affect all existing and subsequent frames, regardless of their default alist (`special-display-frame-alist', `pop-up-frame-alist', or `default-frame-alist'). 2. `pop-up-frame-alist' should not be used for creating normal new frames. The "pop-up" in each of the names `pop-up-frames' and `pop-up-frames-alist' means very different things. `pop-up-frames-alist' is not about creating normal new frames - `default-frame-alist' should be used for that. And `pop-up-frames' simply changes things like `C-x 4 f' to act like `C-x 5 f' - it has nothing to do with popup frames. `pop-up-frames-alist' is about special, "popup" frames (which is why it is a separate alist, like `special-display-frame-alist'): "Alist of frame parameters used when creating pop-up frames. Pop-up frames are used for completions, help, and the like. This variable can be set in your init file, like this: (setq pop-up-frame-alist '((width . 80) (height . 20))) These supersede the values given in `default-frame-alist', for pop-up frames." > However, you do _not_ set `initial-frame-alist' simultaneously, > so you won't get a toolbar for the first frame which is the > correct behavior since you have toggled tool-bar-mode off > before and only that counts for the initial frame (unless you > explicitly override it). Since `default-frame-alist' contains > a tool-bar-lines entry you will get a toolbar for future frames > which is correct as well. Sorry, all of that text is irrelevant to my bug report. I am not concerned about the initial frame. > That said, the behavior of Emacs _is_ wrong because it should not say > that `tool-bar-mode' is on when there are no toolbars. More importantly, if you turn the mode off, new frames should also not have tool bars. That is the point here. > The reason is that `tool-bar-mode' does > > (if tool-bar-mode > (progn > (dolist (frame (frame-list)) > (if (display-graphic-p frame) > (set-frame-parameter frame 'tool-bar-lines 1))) > (if (= 1 (length (default-value 'tool-bar-map))) ; not yet setup > (tool-bar-setup))) > (modify-all-frames-parameters (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 0))))) > > so you can easily see that for turning `tool-bar-mode' off, > default and initial frame parameters are set. For turning it on, only the > parameters of the existing frames are set and _no_ default or initial > parameters. That might be at least partly responsible for the bug. Again, the current bugged behavior: 1. is a regression - the behavior was correct in Emacs 22 2. does not correspond to the behavior of `menu-bar-mode', which is correct in Emacs 23, like 22 > Since the `display-graphic-p' test is not useful > anyway, I propose the attached patch. I think the logic of your patch is needed, but it is not sufficient. I tried your patch (by just redefining tool-bar-mode after running my test case), but it unfortunately does not seem to fix the problem. I suspect the remaining problem is as I indicated above: `pop-up-frame-alist' is being used when it shouldn't be used - to open normal frames (not popup frames). The Emacs 22.3 code works fine in all regards. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:35:06 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12308453115545 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:35:06 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 21:28:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.0 tests=MURPHY_DRUGS_REL8 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet11.oracle.com (rcsinet11.oracle.com [148.87.113.123]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n01LSODA005525 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:28:25 -0800 Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by rgminet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n01LTjBr012402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:29:47 GMT Received: from acsmt700.oracle.com (acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n01LSnWa025244; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:28:50 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.134.5) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:28:13 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Chong Yidong'" Cc: <1754@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu><006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <87zlibtsna.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:28:15 -0800 Message-ID: <008701c96c57$dc010a20$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87zlibtsna.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> Thread-Index: Aclr30lk3qJSKtjrQ+yhhMfiVgEQlwAc02jg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A09020A.495D356F.00F8:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > > Huh? Why is that the right thing? > > Because your function `foo' tells Emacs to add a tool-bar to > new frames. > Here is a much, much simpler version of your "bug": > > In foo.el; > (tool-bar-mode -1) > (defun foo () > (interactive) > (setq default-frame-alist > (append (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1)) > default-frame-alist))) > > emacs -Q -l "foo.el" -f "foo" > > When foo.el is loaded, that turns off tool-bar-mode (internally, this > works by modifying default-frame-alist and changing the frame > parameter `tool-bar-lines' to 0). > > Next, the function `foo' is run. That modifies default-frame-alist by > adding (tool-bar-lines . 1). So, all new frames get a tool-bar. No, you missed the point. I wasn't clear enough. Use your code above, plus (setq pop-up-frames t). After starting Emacs, turn off tool-bar mode: M-x tool-bar-mode. Thereafter, new frames do not have tool bars. This is correct behavior - no bug. Now do the same thing with the code I sent - with the standalone minibuffer frame and `pop-up-frames-alist'. After you turn off tool-bar mode, new frames have tool bars. That is the bug. I already said that there is no bug without the three things I mentioned: standalone minibuffer, non-nil `pop-up-frames', and `pop-up-frames-alist'. Without those conditions, `tool-bar-mode' acts normally; it acts just like `menu-bar-mode': it affects subsequent new frames. I am now getting the impression that `pop-up-frames-alist' is being used for opening new normal frames, not just for popup frames. If so, that is at least a partial cause of the bug. I think that what Martin found is the other cause. IOW, I think what is needed is both: 1. Martin's patch: turning off the mode should update `default-frame-alist' also. 2. There is likely code somewhere that is now using `pop-up-frame-alist' for the creation of ordinary frames, not popup frames. That needs to be fixed. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:00:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123084667511448 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:00:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 21:51:15 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from acsinet11.oracle.com (acsinet11.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n01LpCo8011441 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:51:13 -0800 Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by acsinet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n01LqUnY011210 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:52:31 GMT Received: from acsmt703.oracle.com (acsmt703.oracle.com [141.146.40.81]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n01LpbI8016570; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:51:38 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.134.5) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 13:51:02 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: <1754@debbugs.gnu.org>, "'martin rudalics'" References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com><495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:51:03 -0800 Message-ID: <008901c96c5b$0bcbd020$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Thread-Index: AclsJX37ag8MOW/aSIikTxmNaRc8TgALdCbgAAG74JA= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt703.oracle.com [141.146.40.81] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A09020A.495D3AC7.01CE:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > The problem is, I'm thinking now, that the entry > (tool-bar-lines . 1) in > `pop-up-frames-alist' is being used for the creation of new > frames when > `pop-up-frames' is non-nil. If that is happening, it is > incorrect behavior, on > two counts: > > 1. `tool-bar-mode' should be modal and affect all existing > and subsequent frames, regardless of their default alist > (`special-display-frame-alist', `pop-up-frame-alist', or > `default-frame-alist'). > > 2. `pop-up-frame-alist' should not be used for creating > normal new frames. > > The "pop-up" in each of the names `pop-up-frames' and > `pop-up-frames-alist' means very different things. > `pop-up-frames-alist' is not about creating normal > new frames - `default-frame-alist' should be used for that. > And `pop-up-frames' simply changes things like `C-x 4 f' > to act like `C-x 5 f' - it has nothing to do with popup frames. > > `pop-up-frames-alist' is about special, "popup" frames (which > is why it is a separate alist, like `special-display-frame-alist'): > > "Alist of frame parameters used when creating pop-up frames. > Pop-up frames are used for completions, help, and the like. > This variable can be set in your init file, like this: > (setq pop-up-frame-alist '((width . 80) (height . 20))) > These supersede the values given in `default-frame-alist', > for pop-up frames." I think the bug was introduced when someone translated the C code definition of `display-buffer' to Lisp. This code was added gratuitously, and it causes `pop-up-frames' to use `pop-up-frame-alist': (let... ;; On text-only terminals do not pop up a new frame when ;; `pop-up-frames' equals graphic-only. (use-pop-up-frames (if (eq pop-up-frames 'graphic-only) (display-graphic-p) pop-up-frames)) `pop-up-frames' being non-nil should in no way cause `C-x 5 b' etc. to use `pop-up-frame-alist' for the new frame creation. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:00:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123084668511455 (code B ref 1754); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:00:05 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 21:51:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MURPHY_DRUGS_REL8 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from acsinet11.oracle.com (acsinet11.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n01LpIpL011443 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:51:19 -0800 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by acsinet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n01LqZSZ011245 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:52:37 GMT Received: from acsmt701.oracle.com (acsmt701.oracle.com [141.146.40.71]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n01LiIZw030046; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:44:19 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.134.5) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:51:07 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: <1754@debbugs.gnu.org>, "'Chong Yidong'" References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu><006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com><87zlibtsna.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> <008701c96c57$dc010a20$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:51:09 -0800 Message-ID: <008a01c96c5b$0efb1710$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <008701c96c57$dc010a20$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Thread-Index: Aclr30lk3qJSKtjrQ+yhhMfiVgEQlwAc02jgAAHpTpA= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt701.oracle.com [141.146.40.71] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.495D3ACD.00A7:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > I am now getting the impression that `pop-up-frames-alist' is > being used for opening new normal frames, not just for popup > frames. If so, that is at least a partial cause of the bug. Yes, the cause of this is a faulty translation of `display-buffer' from C code to Lisp - see my reply to Martin. > I think that what Martin found is the other cause. > > IOW, I think what is needed is both: > > 1. Martin's patch: turning off the mode should update > `default-frame-alist' > also. > > 2. There is likely code somewhere that is now using > `pop-up-frame-alist' for the > creation of ordinary frames, not popup frames. That needs to be fixed. That place is apparently the new code for `display-buffer'. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Jason Rumney , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Jason Rumney Original-Sender: Jason Rumney Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:00:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12308540628754 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:00:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Jan 2009 23:54:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. 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([118.101.235.115]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u8sm8887165tia.28.2009.01.01.15.54.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:54:17 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Rumney Message-ID: <495D578C.4060104@f2s.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 07:53:48 +0800 From: Jason Rumney User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Windows/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Adams , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org CC: "'Chong Yidong'" References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> <006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495C729A.8080802@f2s.com> <008601c96c57$d49be1b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <008601c96c57$d49be1b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Drew Adams wrote: > Absolutely not. The mode should affect all existing and future frames. That's > always been the case, and it is how other, similar modes, such as > `menu-bar-mode', work. > If that was the case, you would not be able to have minibuffer, ediff and speedbar frames without menu or toolbar if you were displaying those in other frames. > It has never been the case that some frame alist overrides the current mode > value. > It always has been the case for me. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Jason Rumney , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Jason Rumney Original-Sender: Jason Rumney Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:10:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123085454811107 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:10:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 2 Jan 2009 00:02:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. 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([118.101.235.115]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d7sm5805574tib.17.2009.01.01.16.02.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:02:24 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Rumney Message-ID: <495D5972.3070509@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 08:01:54 +0800 From: Jason Rumney User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Windows/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Adams , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org CC: "'Chong Yidong'" References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu><006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <87zlibtsna.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> <008701c96c57$dc010a20$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <008701c96c57$dc010a20$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Drew Adams wrote: > The "pop-up" in each of the names `pop-up-frames' and `pop-up-frames-alist' > means very different things. It seems you are asking us to change Emacs to match your confusion at the expense of other users'. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 01:20:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123085886429103 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 01:20:02 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 2 Jan 2009 01:14:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet11.oracle.com (rcsinet11.oracle.com [148.87.113.123]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n021ELl9029094 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:14:23 -0800 Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by rgminet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n021Fh3M025156 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 2 Jan 2009 01:15:44 GMT Received: from acsmt703.oracle.com (acsmt703.oracle.com [141.146.40.81]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n021EkGA032711; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 01:14:47 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.134.5) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:14:10 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Jason Rumney'" , <1754@debbugs.gnu.org> Cc: "'Chong Yidong'" References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> <006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495C729A.8080802@f2s.com> <008601c96c57$d49be1b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495D578C.4060104@f2s.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:14:15 -0800 Message-ID: <009201c96c77$6e2de7a0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <495D578C.4060104@f2s.com> Thread-Index: AclsbHfcKSGuSWvTSYamppHWzVWWWAACW0YA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt703.oracle.com [141.146.40.81] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.495D6A64.0310:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > > Absolutely not. The mode should affect all existing and > > future frames. That's always been the case, and it is how other, > > similar modes, such as `menu-bar-mode', work. > > > > If that was the case, you would not be able to have minibuffer, ediff > and speedbar frames without menu or toolbar if you were > displaying those in other frames. Of course you would. I do that myself. You do that by changing the frame parameter for the given frame, not by using the global mode function `menu-bar-mode' or `tool-bar-mode'. There is nothing new here - this is the way it has always worked. > > It has never been the case that some frame alist overrides > > the current mode value. > > It always has been the case for me. No, it has not. Try Emacs 22 (or 21 or 20). `M-x tool-bar-mode' and `M-x menu-bar-mode' affect all existing and future frames. That doesn't mean you can't tweak an individual frame, by changing its parameters. But those are global commands. Always have been. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 01:20:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123085886529108 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 01:20:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 2 Jan 2009 01:14:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n021EMXj029095 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:14:23 -0800 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n021ErS7001409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 2 Jan 2009 01:14:54 GMT Received: from acsmt703.oracle.com (acsmt703.oracle.com [141.146.40.81]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n0217F3i012649; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 01:07:16 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.134.5) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:14:11 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Jason Rumney'" , <1754@debbugs.gnu.org> Cc: "'Chong Yidong'" References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu><006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <87zlibtsna.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> <008701c96c57$dc010a20$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495D5972.3070509@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:14:16 -0800 Message-ID: <009301c96c77$6eb12160$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <495D5972.3070509@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AclsbZmK2CriIY1fTral3EO/on7NiQACKbEA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt703.oracle.com [141.146.40.81] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.495D6A65.0103:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > > The "pop-up" in each of the names `pop-up-frames' and > > `pop-up-frames-alist' means very different things. > > It seems you are asking us to change Emacs to match your confusion at > the expense of other users'. Not at all. Read the description of `pop-up-frame-alist'. It talks about special "pop-up" frames, and it gives examples of them. It is the analog of `special-display-frame-alist'. Both "supercede the values given in `default-frame-alist'. Read the description of `pop-up-frames'. It is completely general and refers to all frames. It is the analog of `pop-up-windows'. There is nothing new in this. Look at the C code for `display-buffer' in Emacs 22 (or 21 or 20). It does not refer to `pop-up-frame-alist' at all. It uses `pop-up-frames' the same way it uses `pop-up-windows': to know whether to use a separate frame (or window, in the latter case). `pop-up-windows': "Non-nil means `display-buffer' should make a new window." `pop-up-frames': "Whether `display-buffer' should make a separate frame." Those have nothing to do with superceding the values in `default-frame-alist'. I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about on this question. Sad to say, the person who translated `display-buffer' from C to Lisp might have been in the same boat. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 02:35:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123086326815237 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 02:35:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 2 Jan 2009 02:27:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n022RjM0015231 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:27:46 -0800 Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n022SHGH015902 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 2 Jan 2009 02:28:18 GMT Received: from acsmt705.oracle.com (acsmt705.oracle.com [141.146.40.83]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n022SAUG021055; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 02:28:11 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.134.5) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 02:27:34 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: <1754@debbugs.gnu.org>, "'Jason Rumney'" Cc: "'Chong Yidong'" References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu><006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <87zlibtsna.fsf@cyd.mit.edu><008701c96c57$dc010a20$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com><495D5972.3070509@gnu.org> <009301c96c77$6eb12160$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:27:39 -0800 Message-ID: <009401c96c81$af560140$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <009301c96c77$6eb12160$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Thread-Index: AclsbZmK2CriIY1fTral3EO/on7NiQACKbEAAAJqTIA= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt705.oracle.com [141.146.40.83] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.495D7B98.0114:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > Read the description of `pop-up-frame-alist'. It talks about > special "pop-up" frames, and it gives examples of them. It is the > analog of `special-display-frame-alist'. Both "supercede the > values given in `default-frame-alist'. > > Read the description of `pop-up-frames'. It is completely > general and refers to all frames. It is the analog of `pop-up-windows'. > > There is nothing new in this. Look at the C code for `display-buffer' > in Emacs 22 (or 21 or 20). It does not refer to `pop-up-frame-alist' > at all. It uses `pop-up-frames' the same way it uses `pop-up-windows': > to know whether to use a separate frame (or window, in the latter case). > > `pop-up-windows': > "Non-nil means `display-buffer' should make a new window." > > `pop-up-frames': > "Whether `display-buffer' should make a separate frame." > > Those have nothing to do with superceding the values in > `default-frame-alist'. I'm afraid it is I who was mistaken about this, not you. From the doc, I had the impression that `pop-up-frame-alist' did not apply to all new frames opened, that it applied only to special, "pop-up" frames. I've never used `pop-up-frame-alist'. But I see now that in Emacs 22 any frames opened by `display-buffer' (e.g. via `C-x 5 f' or because `pop-up-frames' is non-nil) use the properties of `pop-up-frame-alist', not `default-frame-alist'. My bad. It might be a good idea to mention in the doc of `pop-up-frame-alist' the connection with `pop-up-frames' and `display-buffer'. Instead of speaking of it being used when "creating pop-up frames" (undefined) and giving examples of frames that are quite particular (completions, help), it would be better to specifically mention `display-buffer' (and perhaps `pop-up-frames'). From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 02:55:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123086448320083 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 02:55:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 2 Jan 2009 02:48:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n022m0n8020075 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:48:02 -0800 Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n022mWcN027476 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 2 Jan 2009 02:48:33 GMT Received: from acsmt700.oracle.com (acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n022mPkn007973; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 02:48:27 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.134.5) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 02:47:50 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: <1754@debbugs.gnu.org>, "'Jason Rumney'" Cc: "'Chong Yidong'" References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu><006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <87zlibtsna.fsf@cyd.mit.edu><008701c96c57$dc010a20$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com><495D5972.3070509@gnu.org><009301c96c77$6eb12160$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <009401c96c81$af560140$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:47:55 -0800 Message-ID: <009601c96c84$84174450$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <009401c96c81$af560140$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Thread-Index: AclsbZmK2CriIY1fTral3EO/on7NiQACKbEAAAJqTIAAAQ3ZAA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A010203.495D8058.002C:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 I should have added that you can close this bug, and sorry for the noise. I see now that I have let-bound `pop-up-frame-alist' in a couple other places in code I wrote, so perhaps I knew the correct story at one time and forgot it. Dunno. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 09:35:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123088856722926 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 09:35:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 2 Jan 2009 09:29:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MURPHY_DRUGS_REL8 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n029TNMi022913 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 01:29:24 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 02 Jan 2009 09:29:17 -0000 Received: from 62-47-63-144.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.63.144]) [62.47.63.144] by mail.gmx.net (mp047) with SMTP; 02 Jan 2009 10:29:17 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/zjLhA8HbzkCXqfOUZmnR4IPGVxJAezLuhN98/q8 JClWeQI/nPOUCq Message-ID: <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 08:52:02 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Adams CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.61 >> > (tool-bar-mode -1) >> [...] >> > (setq default-frame-alist >> > (append (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1)) >> > default-frame-alist)) >> >> Inherently, you're painting yourself into a corner by simultaneously >> demanding and rejecting toolbars. Moreover, that last assignment gets >> you a second entry for `tool-bar-lines' in >> `default-frame-alist' (and we have received _lots_ of mails >> from you complaining about such duplicate entries before). > > No, as a result of those "_lots_ of mails" I sent, that bug was finally fixed. > No duplicate entries are created by Emacs since 2008-12-31. > > However, you are correct that the code above creates a second entry for > `tool-bar-lines'. That should not be a problem - the first entry is used (it is > an alist, after all). You mean what's good for you is not good for Emacs? > That is, there is no corner. There is. You want toolbars and eat them too. > The latest change to the > parameter `tool-bar-lines' should _always_ prevail - regardless of whether you > use `modify-frame-parameters' or (setq default-frame-alist...) or you call > `tool-bar-mode'. What makes you think it doesn't? > The problem is, I'm thinking now, that the entry (tool-bar-lines . 1) in > `pop-up-frames-alist' is being used for the creation of new frames when > `pop-up-frames' is non-nil. If that is happening, it is incorrect behavior, on > two counts: > > 1. `tool-bar-mode' should be modal and affect all existing and subsequent > frames, regardless of their default alist (`special-display-frame-alist', > `pop-up-frame-alist', or `default-frame-alist'). > > 2. `pop-up-frame-alist' should not be used for creating normal new frames. As Drew uses to say "the Elisp manual is your friend": -- User Option: pop-up-frame-alist This variable holds an alist specifying frame parameters used when `display-buffer' makes a new frame. *Note Frame Parameters::, for more information about frame parameters. >> However, you do _not_ set `initial-frame-alist' simultaneously, >> so you won't get a toolbar for the first frame which is the >> correct behavior since you have toggled tool-bar-mode off >> before and only that counts for the initial frame (unless you >> explicitly override it). Since `default-frame-alist' contains >> a tool-bar-lines entry you will get a toolbar for future frames >> which is correct as well. > > Sorry, all of that text is irrelevant to my bug report. I am not concerned about > the initial frame. You should be. Unfortunately, you are not concerned about reading what I write either. So here we go again: When you do (tool-bar-mode -1) you also create a (tool-bar-lines . 0) entry for _both_ `initial-frame-alist' and `default-frame-alist'. When you do (setq default-frame-alist (append (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1)) default-frame-alist)) you override the (tool-bar-lines . 0) by a (tool-bar-lines . 1) entry _for the default frame only_. However, the initial frame will continue to have the (tool-bar-lines . 0) entry you created earlier. So the initial frame won't have a toolbar, subsequently created frames will. > More importantly, if you turn the mode off, new frames should also not have tool > bars. That is the point here. When you set tool-bar-lines to 1 in `default-frame-alist' the way you do, new frames will have a toolbar. > I tried your patch (by just redefining tool-bar-mode after running my test > case), but it unfortunately does not seem to fix the problem. I suspect the > remaining problem is as I indicated above: `pop-up-frame-alist' is being used > when it shouldn't be used - to open normal frames (not popup frames). Even if you were right about this one, the (tool-bar-lines . 1) entry in `default-frame-alist' would continue to produce toolbars for new frames. martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 09:35:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123088856922931 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 09:35:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 2 Jan 2009 09:29:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n029TPjD022914 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 01:29:26 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 02 Jan 2009 09:29:19 -0000 Received: from 62-47-63-144.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.63.144]) [62.47.63.144] by mail.gmx.net (mp045) with SMTP; 02 Jan 2009 10:29:19 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/upX15WvDukROelzb3jg5jsWxBNSbOJvg0OvOFz+ /FUu8eDzPVorVi Message-ID: <495DC7A8.1020602@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 08:52:08 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Adams CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com><495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <008901c96c5b$0bcbd020$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <008901c96c5b$0bcbd020$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.7 >> 1. `tool-bar-mode' should be modal and affect all existing >> and subsequent frames, regardless of their default alist >> (`special-display-frame-alist', `pop-up-frame-alist', or >> `default-frame-alist'). Then why do you specify such alist entries in the first place? >> 2. `pop-up-frame-alist' should not be used for creating >> normal new frames. [...] >> "Alist of frame parameters used when creating pop-up frames. >> Pop-up frames are used for completions, help, and the like. >> This variable can be set in your init file, like this: >> (setq pop-up-frame-alist '((width . 80) (height . 20))) >> These supersede the values given in `default-frame-alist', >> for pop-up frames." I shall clean up the docstring of `pop-up-frame-alist' to make clear that it _is_ used for creating normal new frames. > I think the bug was introduced when someone translated the C code definition of > `display-buffer' to Lisp. That someone was me and the bugs I introduced caused continuous crashes of Emacs and many finance markets all over the world. Let's hope for a change then ... martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Jason Rumney , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Jason Rumney Original-Sender: Jason Rumney Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 12:05:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123089745727705 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 12:05:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 2 Jan 2009 11:57:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. 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([118.101.235.115]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i9sm13210331tid.25.2009.01.02.03.57.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 03:57:31 -0800 (PST) Sender: Jason Rumney Message-ID: <495E010F.6080504@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 19:57:03 +0800 From: Jason Rumney User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Windows/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Adams CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org, "'Chong Yidong'" References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu><006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <87zlibtsna.fsf@cyd.mit.edu><008701c96c57$dc010a20$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com><495D5972.3070509@gnu.org> <009301c96c77$6eb12160$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <009401c96c81$af560140$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <009401c96c81$af560140$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Drew Adams wrote: > I'm afraid it is I who was mistaken about this, not you. From the doc, I had the > impression that `pop-up-frame-alist' did not apply to all new frames opened, > that it applied only to special, "pop-up" frames. I've never used > `pop-up-frame-alist'. > I can see why you get that impression from the doc string of pop-up-frame-alist. The second line is confusing - both in that the mentioned buffers are not pop-up-frames by default, and that if pop-up-frames is enabled, then there is no difference between the mentioned buffers and any other buffer that displays in a pop-up frame. The doc string should just say that pop-up-frame-alist applies to pop-up-frames, which should also be obvious from the name. Trying to explain pop-up-frames there (which I assume is what the intention of the second line is) just confuses things. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:00:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12309078827379 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:00:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 2 Jan 2009 14:51:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n02EpIgl007373 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 06:51:20 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 02 Jan 2009 14:51:12 -0000 Received: from 62-47-47-151.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.47.151]) [62.47.47.151] by mail.gmx.net (mp060) with SMTP; 02 Jan 2009 15:51:12 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+4s6ERP0O4HzLe0mP+ezap4ZVuwnx6nWzh/s2RU0 7vYFepgvsAn+Sw Message-ID: <495E29BD.7060909@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:50:37 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Rumney , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org CC: Drew Adams , "'Chong Yidong'" References: <877i5f914m.fsf@cyd.mit.edu><006101c96bd0$387ac7b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <87zlibtsna.fsf@cyd.mit.edu><008701c96c57$dc010a20$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com><495D5972.3070509@gnu.org> <009301c96c77$6eb12160$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <009401c96c81$af560140$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495E010F.6080504@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <495E010F.6080504@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.79 > I can see why you get that impression from the doc string of > pop-up-frame-alist. The second line is confusing - both in that the > mentioned buffers are not pop-up-frames by default, and that if > pop-up-frames is enabled, then there is no difference between the > mentioned buffers and any other buffer that displays in a pop-up frame. > > The doc string should just say that pop-up-frame-alist applies to > pop-up-frames, which should also be obvious from the name. Trying to > explain pop-up-frames there (which I assume is what the intention of the > second line is) just confuses things. I've just rewritten some doc-strings in frame.el. Please have a look. martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Stefan Monnier , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 03:20:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.1230952335979 (code B ref 1754); Sat, 03 Jan 2009 03:20:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 3 Jan 2009 03:12:15 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER,XIRONPORT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.pppoe.ca [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n033CChE000973 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 19:12:13 -0800 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArcEAItmXklFxLKh/2dsb2JhbACBashUhXKBaQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.36,321,1228107600"; d="scan'208";a="31741847" Received: from 69-196-178-161.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.196.178.161]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 02 Jan 2009 22:12:07 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id D11D6B41B8; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 22:12:06 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: martin rudalics Cc: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams Message-ID: References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:12:06 -0500 In-Reply-To: <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Fri, 02 Jan 2009 08:52:02 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > When you do > (tool-bar-mode -1) > you also create a (tool-bar-lines . 0) entry for _both_ > `initial-frame-alist' and `default-frame-alist'. When you do Makes me wonder: why does it set it in initial-frame-alist since that alist is always combined with default-frame-alist? Stefan From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 10:20:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123097765611128 (code B ref 1754); Sat, 03 Jan 2009 10:20:02 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 3 Jan 2009 10:14:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n03AECxt011120 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 02:14:13 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 03 Jan 2009 10:14:06 -0000 Received: from 62-47-60-182.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.60.182]) [62.47.60.182] by mail.gmx.net (mp011) with SMTP; 03 Jan 2009 11:14:06 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/3tdoGpT/3/Y7kym1a0H8qEtNXCfnuS7N9dS4tQd AZfIbTM/a814mL Message-ID: <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 11:13:31 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.75 >> you also create a (tool-bar-lines . 0) entry for _both_ >> `initial-frame-alist' and `default-frame-alist'. When you do > > Makes me wonder: why does it set it in initial-frame-alist since that > alist is always combined with default-frame-alist? If you mean that `modify-all-frames-parameters' should not change `initial-frame-alist' because the "right" value will be eventually found when scanning `default-frame-alist', you're maybe right. OTOH a user may have set `initial-frame-alist' to contain a tool-bar-lines entry and wants to explicitly turn off `tool-bar-mode' for the initial frame. Consider Drew's example with "initial" replacing "default". `default-frame-alist' and `initial-frame-alist' are a mess because these are customizable variables that should not be affected by toggling minor modes on and off. I think it's only confusing to have (at least) three .emacs ways to specify whether an initial frame should show a toolbar. martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Stefan Monnier , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 04:20:07 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12311286114672 (code B ref 1754); Mon, 05 Jan 2009 04:20:07 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 5 Jan 2009 04:10:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.4 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, XIRONPORT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.teksavvy.com [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n054A7SJ003980 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sun, 4 Jan 2009 20:10:09 -0800 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AtEEAG8WYUlLd+Xf/2dsb2JhbACBbMdZhXKBaQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.36,330,1228107600"; d="scan'208";a="31785621" Received: from 75-119-229-223.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([75.119.229.223]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 04 Jan 2009 23:10:02 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id A1A977020E; Sun, 4 Jan 2009 23:10:01 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: martin rudalics Cc: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams Message-ID: References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 23:10:01 -0500 In-Reply-To: <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Sat, 03 Jan 2009 11:13:31 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> you also create a (tool-bar-lines . 0) entry for _both_ >>> `initial-frame-alist' and `default-frame-alist'. When you do >> Makes me wonder: why does it set it in initial-frame-alist since that >> alist is always combined with default-frame-alist? > If you mean that `modify-all-frames-parameters' should not change > `initial-frame-alist' because the "right" value will be eventually found > when scanning `default-frame-alist', you're maybe right. Yes, I think that's what I mean. > OTOH a user may have set `initial-frame-alist' to contain > a tool-bar-lines entry and wants to explicitly turn off > `tool-bar-mode' for the initial frame. Consider Drew's example with > "initial" replacing "default". But modify-all-frames-parameters beings by removing any such setting in initial-frame-alist anyway, so it seems this case still doesn't justify adding the setting to initial-frame-alist. Stefan From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 08:05:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123114235128480 (code B ref 1754); Mon, 05 Jan 2009 08:05:05 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 5 Jan 2009 07:59:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n057x6Sn028474 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sun, 4 Jan 2009 23:59:08 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 05 Jan 2009 07:59:01 -0000 Received: from 62-47-40-3.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.40.3]) [62.47.40.3] by mail.gmx.net (mp027) with SMTP; 05 Jan 2009 08:59:01 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+tFeccKACteU9l9syQ0ds4+beSsoAWZe9FV8ig0l lzlcUAU2yIGlh4 Message-ID: <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 08:57:11 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.74 >> If you mean that `modify-all-frames-parameters' should not change >> `initial-frame-alist' because the "right" value will be eventually found >> when scanning `default-frame-alist', you're maybe right. > > Yes, I think that's what I mean. > >> OTOH a user may have set `initial-frame-alist' to contain >> a tool-bar-lines entry and wants to explicitly turn off >> `tool-bar-mode' for the initial frame. Consider Drew's example with >> "initial" replacing "default". > > But modify-all-frames-parameters beings by removing any such setting in > initial-frame-alist anyway, so it seems this case still doesn't justify > adding the setting to initial-frame-alist. On the one hand you mean that `modify-all-frames-parameters' should not change `initial-frame-alist' on the other you mean it should remove such setting in `initial-frame-alist' anyway? You leave me confused. martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Stefan Monnier , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:30:07 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123119405817789 (code B ref 1754); Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:30:07 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 5 Jan 2009 22:20:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.4 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, XIRONPORT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.teksavvy.com [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n05MKtWT017782 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 14:20:56 -0800 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArMEACgWYknO+JnM/2dsb2JhbACBbMwfhXKBaQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.36,334,1228107600"; d="scan'208";a="31825762" Received: from 206-248-153-204.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([206.248.153.204]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 05 Jan 2009 17:20:49 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 7150684D0; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:20:49 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: martin rudalics Cc: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Message-ID: References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:20:49 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Mon, 05 Jan 2009 08:57:11 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> If you mean that `modify-all-frames-parameters' should not change >>> `initial-frame-alist' because the "right" value will be eventually found >>> when scanning `default-frame-alist', you're maybe right. >> >> Yes, I think that's what I mean. >> >>> OTOH a user may have set `initial-frame-alist' to contain >>> a tool-bar-lines entry and wants to explicitly turn off >>> `tool-bar-mode' for the initial frame. Consider Drew's example with >>> "initial" replacing "default". >> >> But modify-all-frames-parameters beings by removing any such setting in >> initial-frame-alist anyway, so it seems this case still doesn't justify >> adding the setting to initial-frame-alist. > On the one hand you mean that `modify-all-frames-parameters' should not > change `initial-frame-alist' on the other you mean it should remove such > setting in `initial-frame-alist' anyway? You leave me confused. No, I only said that it shouldn't *set* the value in initial-frame-alist. Of course, it needs to remove any previous setting in order for the setting in default-frame-alist not to be overridden. Stefan From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:45:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123124912223118 (code B ref 1754); Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:45:02 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 6 Jan 2009 13:38:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n06Dcb7E023111 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Tue, 6 Jan 2009 05:38:39 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 06 Jan 2009 13:38:31 -0000 Received: from 88-117-46-106.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [88.117.46.106]) [88.117.46.106] by mail.gmx.net (mp005) with SMTP; 06 Jan 2009 14:38:31 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/n5vp34hnnUuka2t8xNftXgoMKCjKOTKUUpXwuYI q6vmEs7DMIL9P9 Message-ID: <49635E89.60202@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:37:13 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.75 > No, I only said that it shouldn't *set* the value in > initial-frame-alist. Of course, it needs to remove any previous setting > in order for the setting in default-frame-alist not to be overridden. To summarize, assigning parameters for the initial frame takes values in increasing order of priority from (1) `frame-initial-frame-alist' which has all the resource and command line settings incorporated as well as everything that has been done via (modify-frame-parameters nil ...) while reading .emacs, (2) `default-frame-alist' which merges all implicit `tool-bar-mode', `scroll-bar-mode', ... with explicit (setq default-frame-alist ...), `modify-all-frames-parameters', ... assignments, and (3) `initial-frame-alist' which may contain only entries obtained via (setq initial-frame-alist ...) since `modify-all-frames-parameters' does not operate on that list. or am I missing something? martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:55:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123153052714660 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:55:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 9 Jan 2009 19:48:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MIXEDBDN,MURPHY_DRUGS_REL8 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n09Jmg18014649 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:48:43 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 09 Jan 2009 19:48:35 -0000 Received: from 88-117-42-99.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [88.117.42.99]) [88.117.42.99] by mail.gmx.net (mp002) with SMTP; 09 Jan 2009 20:48:35 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1982XZKTlt8OVLkzALBVdHCNwAjvE4z+8cVVnZgtv 1MpSFriLCuZqBi Message-ID: <4967A75D.1080404@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:37:01 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org CC: Chong Yidong References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000302060602020707030701" X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.6899999999999999,0.71 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000302060602020707030701 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chong, your 2008-10-09 Chong Yidong * tool-bar.el (tool-bar-mode): Only change tool-bar-lines on graphical terminals. change is inherently asymmetric with respect to future frames: Turning `tool-bar-mode' off now adds an entry to `default-frame-alist' as before. Turning it on now no more adds an entry. IMHO, we should either not call `modify-all-frames-parameters' in either case or call them in both cases as in the (attached) tool-bar.el patch I proposed earlier. martin --------------000302060602020707030701 Content-Type: text/plain; name="tool-bar.el.diff" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tool-bar.el.diff" *** tool-bar.el.~1.23.~ 2009-01-05 10:00:20.515625000 +0100 --- tool-bar.el 2009-01-09 20:09:59.421875000 +0100 *************** *** 54,62 **** :group 'frames (if tool-bar-mode (progn ! (dolist (frame (frame-list)) ! (if (display-graphic-p frame) ! (set-frame-parameter frame 'tool-bar-lines 1))) (if (= 1 (length (default-value 'tool-bar-map))) ; not yet setup (tool-bar-setup))) (modify-all-frames-parameters (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 0))))) --- 54,60 ---- :group 'frames (if tool-bar-mode (progn ! (modify-all-frames-parameters (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1))) (if (= 1 (length (default-value 'tool-bar-map))) ; not yet setup (tool-bar-setup))) (modify-all-frames-parameters (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 0))))) --------------000302060602020707030701-- From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:55:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123153053214665 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:55:05 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 9 Jan 2009 19:48:52 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER,MIXEDBDN, MURPHY_DRUGS_REL8 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n09Jmilg014650 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:48:46 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 09 Jan 2009 19:48:38 -0000 Received: from 88-117-42-99.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [88.117.42.99]) [88.117.42.99] by mail.gmx.net (mp015) with SMTP; 09 Jan 2009 20:48:38 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/1eqYfbZH1ur2waCux78k1uGo+XWSETBIzm2JAj8 BwuGsyquu0n35u Message-ID: <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:37:08 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010003090904080106000102" X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.8100000000000001,0.71 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010003090904080106000102 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > No, I only said that it shouldn't *set* the value in > initial-frame-alist. Of course, it needs to remove any previous setting > in order for the setting in default-frame-alist not to be overridden. So shall I apply the attached patch? martin --------------010003090904080106000102 Content-Type: text/plain; name="frame.el.diff" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="frame.el.diff" *** frame.el.~1.291.~ 2009-01-05 09:58:26.812500000 +0100 --- frame.el 2009-01-09 20:09:15.750000000 +0100 *************** *** 593,600 **** (dolist (w window-system-default-frame-alist) (setcdr w (assq-delete-all (car pair) (cdr w))))) ! (and frame-notice-user-settings ! (setq initial-frame-alist (append initial-frame-alist alist))) (setq default-frame-alist (append default-frame-alist alist))) (defun get-other-frame () --- 593,602 ---- (dolist (w window-system-default-frame-alist) (setcdr w (assq-delete-all (car pair) (cdr w))))) ! ;; There's no need to set the value in initial-frame-alist since ! ;; frame-notice-user-settings will take it from default-frame-alist. ! ;; (and frame-notice-user-settings ! ;; (setq initial-frame-alist (append initial-frame-alist alist))) (setq default-frame-alist (append default-frame-alist alist))) (defun get-other-frame () --------------010003090904080106000102-- From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Chong Yidong , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Chong Yidong Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:30:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123153249523908 (code B ref 1754); Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:30:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 9 Jan 2009 20:21:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MURPHY_DRUGS_REL8 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from cyd.mit.edu (CYD.MIT.EDU [18.115.2.24]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n09KLWMx023900 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 12:21:33 -0800 Received: by cyd.mit.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 376DE57E20A; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:21:44 -0500 (EST) From: Chong Yidong To: martin rudalics Cc: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <4967A75D.1080404@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:21:44 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4967A75D.1080404@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:37:01 +0100") Message-ID: <87bpugjkmf.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii martin rudalics writes: > IMHO, we should either not call `modify-all-frames-parameters' in > either case or call them in both cases as in the (attached) > tool-bar.el patch I proposed earlier. Patch looks OK; go ahead and install if you like. From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Stefan Monnier , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:40:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123155460620418 (code B ref 1754); Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:40:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 10 Jan 2009 02:30:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MURPHY_DRUGS_REL8,XIRONPORT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.pppoe.ca [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0A2TvIl020169 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:29:59 -0800 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AtAEAPeWZ0nO+LIy/2dsb2JhbACBbM44hW+BaA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.37,242,1231131600"; d="scan'208";a="32105426" Received: from 206-248-178-50.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([206.248.178.50]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 09 Jan 2009 21:29:52 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id EEEDB86E5; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 21:29:51 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: martin rudalics Cc: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Message-ID: References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:29:51 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:37:08 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> No, I only said that it shouldn't *set* the value in >> initial-frame-alist. Of course, it needs to remove any previous setting >> in order for the setting in default-frame-alist not to be overridden. > So shall I apply the attached patch? I don't know: that was basically my question. Stefan > *** frame.el.~1.291.~ 2009-01-05 09:58:26.812500000 +0100 > --- frame.el 2009-01-09 20:09:15.750000000 +0100 > *************** > *** 593,600 **** > (dolist (w window-system-default-frame-alist) > (setcdr w (assq-delete-all (car pair) (cdr w))))) > ! (and frame-notice-user-settings > ! (setq initial-frame-alist (append initial-frame-alist alist))) > (setq default-frame-alist (append default-frame-alist alist))) > (defun get-other-frame () > --- 593,602 ---- > (dolist (w window-system-default-frame-alist) > (setcdr w (assq-delete-all (car pair) (cdr w))))) > ! ;; There's no need to set the value in initial-frame-alist since > ! ;; frame-notice-user-settings will take it from default-frame-alist. > ! ;; (and frame-notice-user-settings > ! ;; (setq initial-frame-alist (append initial-frame-alist alist))) > (setq default-frame-alist (append default-frame-alist alist))) > (defun get-other-frame () From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12315819148552 (code B ref 1754); Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:15:02 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 10 Jan 2009 10:05:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MURPHY_DRUGS_REL8,RCVD_IN_SBLXBL,RCVD_IN_SBLXBL_CBL autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n0AA59CX007570 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:05:11 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Jan 2009 10:05:03 -0000 Received: from 62-47-46-87.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.46.87]) [62.47.46.87] by mail.gmx.net (mp069) with SMTP; 10 Jan 2009 11:05:03 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19ABed4OlhA0bTaVXeWMP7SZI7UvEOh/EhevLeiQj bnVqxasUnDgEB/ Message-ID: <496872A2.2040404@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:04:18 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.8100000000000001 >> So shall I apply the attached patch? > > I don't know: that was basically my question. Then I won't. It's not that much of an optimization. martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.420 (Entity 5.420) X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (Emacs bug Tracking System) To: "Drew Adams" Subject: bug#1754 closed by martin rudalics (Re: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off) Message-ID: References: <496873E5.9080601@gmx.at> <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> X-Emacs-PR-Message: they-closed 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:20:03 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1231582803-11407-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1231582803-11407-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" This is an automatic notification regarding your bug report which was filed against the emacs package: #1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off It has been closed by martin rudalics . Their explanation is attached below along with your original report. If this explanation is unsatisfactory and you have not received a better one in a separate message then please contact martin rudalics by replying to this email. --=20 1754: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D1754 Emacs Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1231582803-11407-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 1754-done) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 10 Jan 2009 10:10:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MURPHY_DRUGS_REL8 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n0AAAW1N010125 for <1754-done@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:10:34 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 10 Jan 2009 10:10:27 -0000 Received: from 62-47-47-9.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.47.9]) [62.47.47.9] by mail.gmx.net (mp070) with SMTP; 10 Jan 2009 11:10:27 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19jNJ5oTi1jcEd5esyir4l/VTBwUxFKt+JfV1bzTE OTWmAslej+Qg0G Message-ID: <496873E5.9080601@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:09:41 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 1754-done@debbugs.gnu.org CC: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <4967A75D.1080404@gmx.at> <87bpugjkmf.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <87bpugjkmf.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.74 >> IMHO, we should either not call `modify-all-frames-parameters' in >> either case or call them in both cases as in the (attached) >> tool-bar.el patch I proposed earlier. > > Patch looks OK; go ahead and install if you like. Done. Not that I liked it, but I'd rather find out now whether asking for non-zero tool-bar-lines may cause problems on text-only terminals. martin ------------=_1231582803-11407-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 31 Dec 2008 22:15:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.0 tests=FVGT_m_MULTI_ODD autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mBVMFrtb009803 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:15:54 -0800 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:54840) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LI9Ky-0004Y4-I0 for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:14:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LI9Ly-0004Rg-VH for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:15:52 -0500 Received: from rcsinet13.oracle.com ([148.87.113.125]:39745 helo=rgminet13.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LI9Ly-0004RW-7s for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:15:50 -0500 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mBVMGOpe019273 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:16:25 GMT Received: from acsmt707.oracle.com (acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mBVM9iHh029119 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:09:45 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:15:43 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:15:46 -0800 Message-ID: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AclrlVP3DPuJbLvSQfazuoG2vnyNvg== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.495BEF11.0124:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) This is a regression wrt Emacs 20, 21, and 22. 1. Put this code in a file named `bug-tool-bar.el': (tool-bar-mode -1) (defvar my-minibuffer-frame nil "") (defun foo () "" (interactive) (setq default-frame-alist (append (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1)) default-frame-alist)) (setq pop-up-frames t pop-up-frame-alist (append default-frame-alist pop-up-frame-alist)) (setq minibuffer-frame-alist (append (list (cons 'minibuffer 'only)) minibuffer-frame-alist)) (if my-minibuffer-frame (modify-frame-parameters my-minibuffer-frame (list (cons 'minibuffer 'only))) (setq my-minibuffer-frame (let ((after-make-frame-functions nil)) (make-frame (list (cons 'minibuffer 'only))))))) It doesn't matter where the (tool-bar-mode -1) is, and you could alternatively leave it out altogether and then do `M-x tool-bar-mode' to turn it off (step 3). 2. Start Emacs this way: runemacs.exe -Q --debug-init -l "bug-tool-bar.el" -f "foo" You get one frame with buffer *scratch* and a standalone minibuffer frame. Neither frame has a tool bar. However, `tool-bar-mode' is t - it should be nil. You can see this by typing `tool-bar-mode' in buffer *scratch* and using `C-x C-e'. 3. Optional step: `M-x tool-bar-mode'. This turns off tool-bar mode, though it should already have been off because of the code in `bug-tool-bar.el'. 4. Do `C-x 4 f some-file.el'. The file is visited in a new frame, and the frame has a tool bar. And tool-bar mode is now on. And this is so regardless of whether you skip step 3. The mode should remain off, and no tool bar should be shown. In GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2008-12-30 on LENNART-69DE564 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (3.4) --no-opt --cflags -Ic:/g/include -fno-crossjumping' ------------=_1231582803-11407-1-- From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Stefan Monnier , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:45:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123162714211958 (code B ref 1754); Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:45:02 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 10 Jan 2009 22:39:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MURPHY_DRUGS_REL8,XIRONPORT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.pppoe.ca [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0AMcsTD011924 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 14:38:56 -0800 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsoEAMqyaEnO+LIy/2dsb2JhbACBa846hW+BbA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.37,246,1231131600"; d="scan'208";a="32128225" Received: from 206-248-178-50.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([206.248.178.50]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 10 Jan 2009 17:38:49 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 609B9B41B8; Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:38:48 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: martin rudalics Cc: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Message-ID: References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> <496872A2.2040404@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:38:48 -0500 In-Reply-To: <496872A2.2040404@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:04:18 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> So shall I apply the attached patch? >> I don't know: that was basically my question. > Then I won't. It's not that much of an optimization. It's not a question of optimization but of semantics. It seems cleaner to only add the setting to default-frame-alist if that's possible. Which is why I asked for a reason wy it's also added to initial-frame-alist even tho it doesn't seem necessary. Stefan From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:35:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123167315114278 (code B ref 1754); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:35:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 11 Jan 2009 11:25:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n0BBPlhA014270 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 03:25:48 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 11 Jan 2009 11:25:41 -0000 Received: from 62-47-50-147.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.50.147]) [62.47.50.147] by mail.gmx.net (mp040) with SMTP; 11 Jan 2009 12:25:41 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/FFQUaWDzF3XqtOMcS6K1kIpZu3hYiFd/s30RMX8 EO7lwlbLoN7/xf Message-ID: <4969D690.5090004@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:22:56 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> <496872A2.2040404@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.6899999999999999 > It's not a question of optimization but of semantics. > It seems cleaner to only add the setting to default-frame-alist if > that's possible. Which is why I asked for a reason wy it's also added > to initial-frame-alist even tho it doesn't seem necessary. When the .emacs reader encounters the form (modify-all-frames-parameters (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1))) it will map both initial-frame-alist and default-frame-alist to an alist containing a (tool-bar-lines . 1) entry. If it then encounters the form (setq default-frame-alist (append (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 0)) default-frame-alist)) it adds to default-frame-alist a (tool-bar-lines . 0) entry shadowing the (tool-bar-lines . 1) entry. With current Emacs, the initial frame will probably have a tool bar. If we "only add the setting to default-frame-alist", the initial frame likely will not have a tool bar. Hence, applying the change we're talking about can change the meaning of a valid .emacs file for some value of validity. But I suppose you know that. Alas, I don't know what kind of semantics you have in mind :-( martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Stefan Monnier , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:05:06 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12316857952848 (code B ref 1754); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:05:06 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 11 Jan 2009 14:56:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER,XIRONPORT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.pppoe.ca [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0BEuRfR002832 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 06:56:28 -0800 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApAFAFKXaUnO+LIy/2dsb2JhbACBbM5VhW+BbA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.37,248,1231131600"; d="scan'208";a="32141185" Received: from 206-248-178-50.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([206.248.178.50]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2009 09:56:21 -0500 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 38B42B424B; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:56:21 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: martin rudalics Cc: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Message-ID: References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> <496872A2.2040404@gmx.at> <4969D690.5090004@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:56:21 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4969D690.5090004@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:22:56 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>>> "martin" == martin rudalics writes: >> It's not a question of optimization but of semantics. >> It seems cleaner to only add the setting to default-frame-alist if >> that's possible. Which is why I asked for a reason wy it's also added >> to initial-frame-alist even tho it doesn't seem necessary. > When the .emacs reader encounters the form > (modify-all-frames-parameters (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1))) > (setq default-frame-alist > (append (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 0)) > default-frame-alist)) The above two forms don't mention anything special about the initial-frame, so I think that it's a bug if Emacs treats the initial frame differently in this case. Stefan From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:25:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12316941406829 (code B ref 1754); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:25:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 11 Jan 2009 17:15:40 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n0BHFZgP006815 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:15:37 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 11 Jan 2009 17:15:28 -0000 Received: from 62-47-49-135.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.49.135]) [62.47.49.135] by mail.gmx.net (mp051) with SMTP; 11 Jan 2009 18:15:28 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/CNQZez4bCobHdvWZzK61XT6K7t8KHwphV9S74I6 xp+o02o85IDWfC Message-ID: <496A28FD.6090909@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:14:37 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> <496872A2.2040404@gmx.at> <4969D690.5090004@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.76 >> When the .emacs reader encounters the form > >> (modify-all-frames-parameters (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1))) > >> (setq default-frame-alist >> (append (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 0)) >> default-frame-alist)) > > The above two forms don't mention anything special about the > initial-frame, so I think that it's a bug if Emacs treats the initial > frame differently in this case. Maybe. We'd also have to cater for `window-system-default-frame-alist' which currently overrides values from `default-frame-alist' but not those of `initial-frame-alist'. That is, `modify-all-frames-parameters' currently overrides a setting in `window-system-default-frame-alist'. martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Stefan Monnier , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:20:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.1231715567422 (code B ref 1754); Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:20:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 11 Jan 2009 23:12:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER,XIRONPORT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.teksavvy.com [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0BNCdFf000415 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:12:41 -0800 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApAFAFMLaklMCpxj/2dsb2JhbACBbM9AhW+BbA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.37,249,1231131600"; d="scan'208";a="32152160" Received: from 76-10-156-99.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.156.99]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 11 Jan 2009 18:12:33 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 79B638706; Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:12:33 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: martin rudalics Cc: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Message-ID: References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> <496872A2.2040404@gmx.at> <4969D690.5090004@gmx.at> <496A28FD.6090909@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:12:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: <496A28FD.6090909@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:14:37 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> When the .emacs reader encounters the form >>> (modify-all-frames-parameters (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 1))) >>> (setq default-frame-alist >>> (append (list (cons 'tool-bar-lines 0)) >>> default-frame-alist)) >> >> The above two forms don't mention anything special about the >> initial-frame, so I think that it's a bug if Emacs treats the initial >> frame differently in this case. > Maybe. We'd also have to cater for `window-system-default-frame-alist' > which currently overrides values from `default-frame-alist' but not > those of `initial-frame-alist'. That is, `modify-all-frames-parameters' > currently overrides a setting in `window-system-default-frame-alist'. Very good point. I think it makes it even more correct to apply the change I suggest. Stefan From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:05:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12317543902656 (code B ref 1754); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:05:05 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 12 Jan 2009 09:59:50 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n0C9xkpo002645 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 01:59:47 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 12 Jan 2009 09:59:40 -0000 Received: from 62-47-34-88.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.34.88]) [62.47.34.88] by mail.gmx.net (mp069) with SMTP; 12 Jan 2009 10:59:40 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18s7y4y234sO/uoUDIeQ6QXuE3FBVsuvfLEfwpqcX SfHqOp5NrvAcbE Message-ID: <496B145C.2070104@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:58:52 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> <496872A2.2040404@gmx.at> <4969D690.5090004@gmx.at> <496A28FD.6090909@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.78 >> Maybe. We'd also have to cater for `window-system-default-frame-alist' >> which currently overrides values from `default-frame-alist' but not >> those of `initial-frame-alist'. That is, `modify-all-frames-parameters' >> currently overrides a setting in `window-system-default-frame-alist'. > > Very good point. I think it makes it even more correct to apply the > change I suggest. Agreed. But then why should `modify-all-frames-parameters' modify `window-system-default-frame-alist'? martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Stefan Monnier , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:30:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123177381021600 (code B ref 1754); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:30:02 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 12 Jan 2009 15:23:30 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER,XIRONPORT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.teksavvy.com [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0CFNRdI021593 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:23:29 -0800 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ap4EAKruaklMCpxj/2dsb2JhbACBbNB/hW+BbA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.37,253,1231131600"; d="scan'208";a="32177445" Received: from 76-10-156-99.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.156.99]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 12 Jan 2009 10:23:23 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id E04DE8440; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:23:21 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: martin rudalics Cc: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Message-ID: References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> <496872A2.2040404@gmx.at> <4969D690.5090004@gmx.at> <496A28FD.6090909@gmx.at> <496B145C.2070104@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:23:21 -0500 In-Reply-To: <496B145C.2070104@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:58:52 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> Maybe. We'd also have to cater for `window-system-default-frame-alist' >>> which currently overrides values from `default-frame-alist' but not >>> those of `initial-frame-alist'. That is, `modify-all-frames-parameters' >>> currently overrides a setting in `window-system-default-frame-alist'. >> Very good point. I think it makes it even more correct to apply the >> change I suggest. > Agreed. But then why should `modify-all-frames-parameters' modify > `window-system-default-frame-alist'? I'm not sure I understand the question. It doesn't add the setting to window-system-default-frame-alist, does it? So all it does is remove any overriding setting from it, just like it does with initial-frame-alist, which is necessary for the default-frame-alist setting to be effective. Stefan From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:10:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123177609831331 (code B ref 1754); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:10:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 12 Jan 2009 16:01:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER,REMOVEDOT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n0CG1XSj031322 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:01:34 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 12 Jan 2009 16:01:27 -0000 Received: from 88-117-41-67.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [88.117.41.67]) [88.117.41.67] by mail.gmx.net (mp071) with SMTP; 12 Jan 2009 17:01:27 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/MWOVRYobMYIUG5I7w623qYJtJr7kQGq3oqunp70 rIPbg2w9xvnqpA Message-ID: <496B690C.7070506@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:00:12 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> <496872A2.2040404@gmx.at> <4969D690.5090004@gmx.at> <496A28FD.6090909@gmx.at> <496B145C.2070104@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.76 > I'm not sure I understand the question. It doesn't add the setting to > window-system-default-frame-alist, does it? So all it does is remove > any overriding setting from it, just like it does with > initial-frame-alist, which is necessary for the default-frame-alist > setting to be effective. I'm not sure whether toggling tool-/menu-bar-mode should override window-system specific settings. When we set tool-bar-lines in default-frame-alist we don't override window-system specific settings. Is toggling tool-/menu-bar-mode conceptually "stronger" than setting default-frame-alist WRT to future frames? What's the purpose of setting `window-system-default-frame-alist' in .emacs when a simple click on a menu entry will annihilate its effect for the rest of the session? Such clicks are not window-system specific. martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Stefan Monnier , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:35:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12317849584260 (code B ref 1754); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:35:05 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 12 Jan 2009 18:29:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER,XIRONPORT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.pppoe.ca [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0CITEKY004254 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:29:16 -0800 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ap4EADMba0lMCpxj/2dsb2JhbACBbNInhW+BbA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.37,253,1231131600"; d="scan'208";a="32189903" Received: from 76-10-156-99.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.156.99]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 12 Jan 2009 13:29:09 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 8D3938440; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:29:08 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: martin rudalics Cc: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Message-ID: References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> <496872A2.2040404@gmx.at> <4969D690.5090004@gmx.at> <496A28FD.6090909@gmx.at> <496B145C.2070104@gmx.at> <496B690C.7070506@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:29:08 -0500 In-Reply-To: <496B690C.7070506@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:00:12 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> I'm not sure I understand the question. It doesn't add the setting to >> window-system-default-frame-alist, does it? So all it does is remove >> any overriding setting from it, just like it does with >> initial-frame-alist, which is necessary for the default-frame-alist >> setting to be effective. > I'm not sure whether toggling tool-/menu-bar-mode should override > window-system specific settings. When we set tool-bar-lines in > default-frame-alist we don't override window-system specific settings. > Is toggling tool-/menu-bar-mode conceptually "stronger" than setting > default-frame-alist WRT to future frames? What's the purpose of setting > `window-system-default-frame-alist' in .emacs when a simple click on a > menu entry will annihilate its effect for the rest of the session? Such > clicks are not window-system specific. That's a more general problem: I usually don't have a menu-bar in my frames, except for a few exception where I give them a menu-bar via special-display-buffer-names. Whenever I use M-x menu-bar-mode, these details are lost. The problem is that tool-bar-mode, and menu-bar-mode and too coarse: they offer no way for the user to say whether he wants it to apply to every single frame, or only to those currently displayed, or only the current one, or only those on the current terminal, ... Also, making them work right would probably require keeping track for each and ever frame of where its parameters came from. So tool-bar-mode could just set default-frame-alist and then "refresh" every frame's parameters. Stefan From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Lennart Borgman , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Lennart Borgman Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:40:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123178881720827 (code B ref 1754); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:40:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 12 Jan 2009 19:33:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.152]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0CJXX4m020821 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:33:35 -0800 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id l27so5988642fgb.43 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:33:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=axOCtiNxvdNhjheoXVWMN7NpKgdODLFT80nYN8a8zD0=; b=VF115edhzWB6QiMfQUkQnlosC3nUV8iQIRnd8CrgHnnoJG3+TOzAxIcSggqN/7wCjI 64Yvs++bXoHjC88+6Riuk2+ep/NG0+x72zy4Yqz1ETy6bewsXzMHRdJ2owm25LWIexNP afqCkiv4sZlRWv+kIeLpbOkZNy5dh5jE2eivE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ObInk8TvKP1qcULVQVdtcHLqMGSTBQl3j1+5uRmmxkMlvWxrOjisodF4KDrqRZV/7o ZjrbNDozB7RT0zOlzWYLMvdVAotS7em4bDdz3LdjSa2Fisp2e4BtB8nn94CrKU8BfVa6 5fQ7tmqKUztmBK8xxiF6DJQRSEwZNhnVUK62c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.86.86.12 with SMTP id j12mr940697fgb.64.1231788812871; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:33:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <4969D690.5090004@gmx.at> <496A28FD.6090909@gmx.at> <496B145C.2070104@gmx.at> <496B690C.7070506@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:33:02 +0100 Message-ID: From: Lennart Borgman To: Stefan Monnier , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: martin rudalics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > The problem is that tool-bar-mode, and menu-bar-mode and too coarse: > they offer no way for the user to say whether he wants it to apply to > every single frame, or only to those currently displayed, or only the > current one, or only those on the current terminal, ... > > Also, making them work right would probably require keeping track for > each and ever frame of where its parameters came from. So tool-bar-mode > could just set default-frame-alist and then "refresh" every > frame's parameters. Isn't that a good general structure for all kinds of local/global settings? From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: Stefan Monnier , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:05:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12317938539949 (code B ref 1754); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:05:05 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 12 Jan 2009 20:57:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER,XIRONPORT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.pppoe.ca [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0CKvT57009943 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:57:31 -0800 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApwEAC89a0lMCpxj/2dsb2JhbACBbNIQhW+BbA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.37,254,1231131600"; d="scan'208";a="32199302" Received: from 76-10-156-99.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.156.99]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 12 Jan 2009 15:57:24 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id B43A28440; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:57:23 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Lennart Borgman Cc: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org, martin rudalics Message-ID: References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <4969D690.5090004@gmx.at> <496A28FD.6090909@gmx.at> <496B145C.2070104@gmx.at> <496B690C.7070506@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:57:23 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Lennart Borgman's message of "Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:33:02 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> The problem is that tool-bar-mode, and menu-bar-mode and too coarse: >> they offer no way for the user to say whether he wants it to apply to >> every single frame, or only to those currently displayed, or only the >> current one, or only those on the current terminal, ... >> >> Also, making them work right would probably require keeping track for >> each and ever frame of where its parameters came from. So tool-bar-mode >> could just set default-frame-alist and then "refresh" every >> frame's parameters. > Isn't that a good general structure for all kinds of local/global settings? Yes, I think so. Not that it's easy to do, tho. Stefan From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:05:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123179757525421 (code B ref 1754); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:05:05 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 12 Jan 2009 21:59:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER,MDO_CABLE_TV3 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet12.oracle.com (rcsinet12.oracle.com [148.87.113.124]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0CLxVhV025413 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:59:32 -0800 Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by rgminet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n0CLx4Hj000330 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:59:05 GMT Received: from acsmt706.oracle.com (acsmt706.oracle.com [141.146.40.84]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n0CLxxUn023080; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:00:02 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.179.10) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:59:19 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" , <1754@debbugs.gnu.org>, "'martin rudalics'" References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com><495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com><495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at><495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at><4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at><4967A764.2070809@gmx.at><496872A2.2040404@gmx.at><4969D690.5090004@gmx.at><496A28FD.6090909@gmx.at><496B145C.2070104@gmx.at><496B690C.7070506@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:59:18 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c97501$05f10b30$0ab32382@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Acl05eEeHb8PlOWFTl+YfG5dFkQVDgAAXuiA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt706.oracle.com [141.146.40.84] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.496BBD3A.02F4:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > >> I'm not sure I understand the question. It doesn't add > >> the setting to window-system-default-frame-alist, does it? > >> So all it does is remove any overriding setting from it, > >> just like it does with initial-frame-alist, which is > >> necessary for the default-frame-alist > >> setting to be effective. > > > I'm not sure whether toggling tool-/menu-bar-mode should override > > window-system specific settings. When we set tool-bar-lines in > > default-frame-alist we don't override window-system > > specific settings. Is toggling tool-/menu-bar-mode conceptually > > "stronger" than setting default-frame-alist WRT to future frames? > > What's the purpose of setting `window-system-default-frame-alist' > > in .emacs when a simple click on a menu entry will annihilate > > its effect for the rest of the session? Such > > clicks are not window-system specific. > > That's a more general problem: I usually don't have a menu-bar in my > frames, except for a few exception where I give them a menu-bar via > special-display-buffer-names. Whenever I use M-x menu-bar-mode, > these details are lost. > > The problem is that tool-bar-mode, and menu-bar-mode and too coarse: > they offer no way for the user to say whether he wants it to apply to > every single frame, or only to those currently displayed, or only the > current one, or only those on the current terminal, ... > > Also, making them work right would probably require keeping track for > each and ever frame of where its parameters came from. So > tool-bar-mode could just set default-frame-alist and then > "refresh" every frame's parameters. Not sure I want to jump in here again, but here goes nothing. I am no expert on this, so feel free to set me straight. ;-) I don't think that the problem is that `tool-bar-mode' and `menu-bar-mode' are too coarse. The problem is that it is not simple to decide how to juggle the various ways of changing frame parameters and, in particular, the possible intentions of users. Which also means that it is not always simple for users or code to achieve a desired behavior. I think that a straightforward rule should govern this - chronological order. The latest change to a frame parameter should win - always. And nothing should affect future frames in a way that overrides later parameter settings - ever. In particular, no default definition for frames - whether `default-frame-alist' or `pop-up-frame-alist' or special-display frame functions (or default values) - should override explicitly setting a frame parameter. Second, `tool-bar-mode' and `menu-bar-mode' should not be special in any way. They should change all existing frames (yes, all), and they should use only `after-make-frame-functions' to affect future frames. [If it's _really_ important to prevent those two modes from interfering with settings that might be made in other ways, we could special-case them by having two additional frame parameters that stop those modes from changing a given frame's parameter: `inhibit-tool-bar-mode' and `inhibit-menu-bar-mode'.] If this principle is accepted, the question then becomes what the order should be, in particular for actions that are intended to affect future frames (or future frames of some type). Suggested order: 1. The frame alists that are applicable (init, default, popup, special-display, whatever). And, in the case of special-display frames, that would include whatever any pertinent special-display functions do. IOW, all such things would provide only _default_ values for frame parameters. 2. Any frame-parameter modification done by `after-make-frame-functions'. 3. Explicit later calls that modify parameters of existing frames (e.g. `modify-frame-paramters'). Because of chronological order, #3 overrides #2, which overrides #1. Always. There is no need to save any special state or history to record intentions. All functions or modes that intend to affect future frames would use a hook such as `after-make-frame-functions' to do so. There would be no built-in treatment for future frames (other than the default definitions). In this way, `tool-bar-mode' and `menu-bar-mode' would not be treated specially. Calls to `tool-bar-mode' and `menu-bar-mode' are covered in #3. But those modes would also add (or remove) a function to `after-make-frame-functions' that would add a tool bar or menu bar. [If it's really important that `tool-bar-mode' and `menu-bar-mode' be special-cased, then their role of affecting future frames could take effect systematically between steps #1 and #2. That would still let you override their effect using `after-make-frame-functions'. But I don't think special-casing them is necessary or TRT.] The advantage of such a scheme is simplicity: chronological order rules. That is already the rule we use within a hook such as `after-make-frame-functions', and it makes sense more generally also. Someone (or some code) that wants, say, most frames to have a tool bar but not certain frames (e.g. pop-up frames or those with a name that contains `foobar'), would: 1. Turn on `tool-bar-mode' (which would in turn put a function on `after-make-frame-functions' that creates a tool bar). 2. Append a function to `after-make-frame-functions' that tests the frame type (checking any characteristics it wants) and, if appropriate, removes the tool bar. This approach might sound overly simplistic, but the alternative is, I think, a nightmare (aka un merdier). From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: martin rudalics , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: martin rudalics Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:30:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.123194288824418 (code B ref 1754); Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:30:03 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 14 Jan 2009 14:21:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail.gmx.net (mail.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id n0EELNgQ024409 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:21:25 -0800 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 14 Jan 2009 14:21:17 -0000 Received: from 88-117-40-31.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [88.117.40.31]) [88.117.40.31] by mail.gmx.net (mp008) with SMTP; 14 Jan 2009 15:21:17 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX199caRFIJR9YeGeDZGJcIjEdOtdK32Cn+IESN054j oICzbmNj6pLd78 Message-ID: <496DF4A9.1090008@gmx.at> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:20:25 +0100 From: martin rudalics User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.16 (Windows/20080708) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stefan Monnier CC: 1754@debbugs.gnu.org References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> <4961BD57.9020202@gmx.at> <4967A764.2070809@gmx.at> <496872A2.2040404@gmx.at> <4969D690.5090004@gmx.at> <496A28FD.6090909@gmx.at> <496B145C.2070104@gmx.at> <496B690C.7070506@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.8 > The problem is that tool-bar-mode, and menu-bar-mode and too coarse: > they offer no way for the user to say whether he wants it to apply to > every single frame, or only to those currently displayed, or only the > current one, or only those on the current terminal, ... I was only talking about `window-system-default-frame-alist', a variable which apparently has no provenience and not very clear semantics. If I ever used it, I'd not expect a mode toggling function reset it. Note also that things like `pop-up-frame-alist' (and - if we implement your suggestion - `initial-frame-alist') are not affected by mode toggling. martin From unknown Sat Aug 16 18:43:58 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#1754: 23.0.60; tool-bar is shown with tool-bar-mode off Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 1754@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:40:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 1754 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 1754-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1754.12322172215437 (code B ref 1754); Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:40:04 +0000 Received: (at 1754) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 17 Jan 2009 18:33:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n0HIXcoe005430 for <1754@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:33:39 -0800 Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n0HIYHHx001330 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:34:19 GMT Received: from acsmt700.oracle.com (acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n0HIYAnA010982; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:34:11 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.128.33) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:33:27 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'martin rudalics'" Cc: <1754@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <005301c96b95$547ae890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <495CE033.70808@gmx.at> <008801c96c57$dcbd5540$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <495DC7A2.6000106@gmx.at> <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:33:32 -0800 Message-ID: <002601c978d2$1a65e340$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 In-Reply-To: <495F3A4B.2070802@gmx.at> thread-index: AcltjCrwnxGF/dH1TYS/6JS/3a2kAALRBJjw X-Source-IP: acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A09020B.49722479.0247:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > From: martin rudalics Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:14 AM > `default-frame-alist' and `initial-frame-alist' are a mess > because these are customizable variables that should not be > affected by toggling minor modes on and off. Sorry for the late reply. I wanted to comment on this part, speaking more generally and not just about these two variables. And I realize that Martin was saying something particular - I'm not contradicting that. I just want to say that it can be appropriate for a command, including a minor-mode command, to change the value of a user option (customizable variable) - e.g. toggle it. Obviously that happens for the mode variable itself, but that is not the only case where this can be useful. There is nothing wrong, in general, with a command or other code changing the value of a user option, as long as the _documentation mentions_ this behavior. There is even nothing wrong necessarily with a command saving the new option value - provided the command's doc calls this out as part of the behavior. Customize is not the only way to change or save option values, and it shouldn't be regarded as such. The Customize UI is limited; other commands can offer alternative, even improved, user interaction in some cases.