From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 26 16:09:01 2014 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Mar 2014 20:09:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51360 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WSu8C-0001f5-4q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:09:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53197) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WSu88-0001ew-Uz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:08:57 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WSu7y-0002Qp-J2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:08:56 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:57557) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WSu7y-0002Ql-Gr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:08:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54883) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WSu7p-0003cM-JG for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:08:46 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WSu7h-0002Mr-1S for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:08:37 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:30570) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WSu7g-0002Mb-Rb for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 16:08:28 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s2QK8RhN029495 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 20:08:28 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s2QK8Qxn006010 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 20:08:26 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s2QK8Qxi003236 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 20:08:26 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:08:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.4.50; REGRESSION: `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is broken X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) In a build as recent as this one there was no such problem: In GNU Emacs 24.4.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2014-03-21 on ODIEONE Bzr revision: 116829 dancol@dancol.org-20140321121023-5tjxtiws6qa4qyod Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/Devel/emacs/snapshot/trunk --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3' 'CPPFLAGS=3D-DGC_MCHECK= =3D1 -Ic:/Devel/emacs/include' LDFLAGS=3D-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib' The problem exists in this build: In GNU Emacs 24.4.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2014-03-23 on ODIEONE Bzr revision: 116869 yamaoka@jpl.org-20140324004210-m3ek4k40qwamyabx Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/Devel/emacs/snapshot/trunk --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3' LDFLAGS=3D-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib 'CPPFLAGS=3D-DGC_MCHECK=3D1 -Ic:/Devel/emacs/include'' Recipe: emacs -Q Evaluate this: (defun describe-keymap (keymap) ; Bound to `C-h M-k' "Describe bindings in KEYMAP, a variable whose value is a keymap. Completion is available for the keymap name." (interactive (list (intern (completing-read "Keymap: " obarray (lambda (m) (and (boundp m) (keymapp (symbol-value m)))) t nil 'variable-name-history)))) (unless (and (symbolp keymap) (boundp keymap) (keymapp (symbol-value keymap))) (error "`%S' is not a keymapp" keymap)) (let ((name (symbol-name keymap)) (doc (documentation-property keymap 'variable-documentation))) (help-setup-xref (list #'describe-keymap keymap) (called-interactively-p 'interactive)) (with-output-to-temp-buffer "*Help*" ; NO GOOD with this ;; (with-help-window "*Help*" ; <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OK with thi= s (princ name) (terpri) (princ (make-string (length name) ?-)) (terpri) (terpri) (when doc (princ doc) (terpri) (terpri)) (with-current-buffer "*Help*" (insert (substitute-command-keys (concat "\\{" name "}"))))))) M-x describe-keymap RET ctl-x-map RET Buffer *Help* is not in Help mode, as it should be. It is in Fundamental mode. Change `with-output-to-temp-buffer' to `with-help-window' and the problem goes away. This does not seem right. We should not have to replace the former with the latter everywhere. And the former still exists. It just does not do the right thing anymore. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 26 20:05:42 2014 Received: (at 17109) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Mar 2014 00:05:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51511 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WSxpE-00087V-Mf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 20:05:41 -0400 Received: from mail-pb0-f49.google.com ([209.85.160.49]:34918) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WSxpC-00087J-0U for 17109@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 20:05:38 -0400 Received: by mail-pb0-f49.google.com with SMTP id jt11so2617700pbb.8 for <17109@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:05:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=pVD9B07jbx5b8yuFD49o8XYLV1lC5C8Z7aml1TtXGjI=; b=j8tSgr22RfHsbXdlDWgt5WcxONNLd52XHe5bPH5l/38zBQXYDcse7MXNgar5G2Yj4g C8irYUKeitDl++wJPJFj1ptyrDwui5GA91Hxo4nue6qzwBImL+Xxowv/kSMpjb65tBhE HpWtDuCWglishYGg6fWsjfjIXxPv6ZITNWTCb3bICvkxbs5mullLAr5MUYMzrUtE5pkn nRnR5j+TZnzgZYP5YK4b7QHYVahjFOvl9IQGSLjOPAThi51vlX3PLA43EATSMIr1AE/H 8IwTRp/qxLdbghQUTnFdDZDF+EH/JAZazOGXN+zXRp1dzr2pxkNSupKJ0pBZiXkBbtfn 2ZUg== X-Received: by 10.68.233.99 with SMTP id tv3mr21292814pbc.163.1395878737201; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fortuna ([123.119.90.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id jd5sm630997pbb.18.2014.03.26.17.05.28 for (version=TLSv1.1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:05:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo Liu To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#17109: 24.4.50; REGRESSION: `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is broken References: Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAMFBMVEUaFRZLMy1dTENxVzKQ WiCrXQ97cmO/dSqSh3akjGTApXy5sJ7Sxo/Sz8Xo6eP9//xJbkruAAAAAWJLR0QAiAUdSAAAAAlw SFlzAAACxQAAAsUBidZ/7wAAAAd0SU1FB9cBBwMJOwHXewoAAAIBSURBVCjPVdNBiNNAFADQ6J4F x3hThHZBBC+WCFI8SS0iezRDcMHLHkLAg6gJH/fgYQ9xYlj2sLK4KHgqCgXFhda2Idmr4kkQPZQ0 nkQMbTypbMmMM2m7ZgYSmMef/5OZPwo7HFnx3uKPcmj0Dht1LWZJ+Hvr7dIFZXRUwl9VRTuuKDJ+ U44gjscknK4hhJaCkYRsWjmBtLqXlJAG2wipNe18OZJu1BBq1E8xafl4s6Jq2mUZGftU1y7CCxnp FVUDWJXx4C66BKBnErbuoaYNtoRTu6EZBsCbMn7W+5qOAR6WvxNOby9jHWC9hAf3n304CdiAByXs 3Nh9roLDkyb/sWV712vYwaLSAn8CPMHIAAzOPDKP2COAFm4Y4ODVWc6xG7KXsN7UeUJjjimx2uwd gCgNhr0i8C/xyCD5CiCKAMY3Bf5oDzx//w/fimscdcAZU2jv9sedx6+nYPPFIoWI/GK6QZ+EFGOR ErAjCnV3vPZ7XqlTIMbOLY7fLcvvmT7rXNWaGDexIY44N12TG2PDp7vqyl57dnCeuWwyNpnEURxk fTbDYeBnKRn4oejPYI4sH6WviBumEZ/GxX4X/x6EcURFZ7E071bjQGAxpcOAEOJuTiroDEea5Szv rVWLYfl7ZiQwSUToxrkux7OLixAWGz22+HIyWTRYcVfomOwvzusfjtVIGgLHf3MAAAAASUVORK5C YII= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 08:05:24 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:08:25 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (CentOS 6.5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 17109 Cc: 17109@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 2014-03-27 04:08 +0800, Drew Adams wrote: > In a build as recent as this one there was no such problem: See bug#16038 on why with-output-to-temp-buffer is no longer associated with help mode. You can use any major mode. Leo From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 26 21:53:03 2014 Received: (at 17109) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Mar 2014 01:53:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51548 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WSzV8-0002Xf-Jy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 21:53:03 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:44109) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WSzV4-0002XB-7p for 17109@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Mar 2014 21:52:59 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s2R1quFa029311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 27 Mar 2014 01:52:57 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s2R1qtal015478 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Mar 2014 01:52:55 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s2R1qtvO028659; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 01:52:55 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:52:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Leo Liu Subject: RE: bug#17109: 24.4.50; REGRESSION: `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is broken References: In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 17109 Cc: 17109@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) > > In a build as recent as this one there was no such problem: >=20 > See bug#16038 on why with-output-to-temp-buffer is no longer=20 > associated with help mode. You can use any major mode. It should still be associated with help mode. That's how you preserve its behavior. If you want to give it additional, alternative, optional behavior then add that, but do not change the default behavior. It has been "associated with help mode" for 30 years. That's what it does. That's what it's for (yes, in spite of its poor name). Please revert this incompatible change. >From your own post to the #16038 thread: "We are trying to consolidate the features of the two macros into one so no feature is lost." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well bug #17109 shows that you've changed `with-output-to-temp-buffer' in an incompatible way, which contradicts your claim of not losing its behavior. If you want new, incompatible behavior, come up with a different, new macro. Why screw `with-output-to-temp-buffer'? There is no reason to change its behavior - ESPECIALLY if you want to eventually make it obsolete. This just gets worse and worse. Emacs has already added `with-help-window'. Fine. Add another one if you need it. But why must you mess with existing behavior like this? Create as many new functions and macros as you like, but do you need to be introducing incompatible behavior changes like this to existing functions & macros? Martin said: "`with-help-window' does some things differently which I could not put into `with-output-to-temp-buffer' due to compatibility issues." And so what has now happened to this precious `with-output-to-temp-buffer' compatibility? Out the window! You persisted: "The more interesting question is is it possible to merge these two macros?" That is not "the more interesting question". Just misguided. In the #16038 thread, I said, "Incorporate whatever you feel you need to into `with-output-to-temp-buffer', as long as "no feature is lost" from it." And now it is broken. What should have happened, to start with, is to fix bug #8368. And you have still NOT deprecated `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. As I said in the #16038 thread: If `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is deprecated, we should learn in the NEWS that this is the case AND what it is replaced by. IOW, tell users how to update their code. Likewise for the misnamed hooks etc. Instead, at least so far, NEWS has only this:=20 *** New macro `with-temp-buffer-window', similar to `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. And I said: If `with-temp-buffer-window' is supposed to be the replacement for `with-output-to-temp-buffer' then that needs to be stated clearly in the NEWS. Including a spec of what the replacement should be for different `with-output-to-temp-buffer' input patterns (formal parameters). And including hook use (correspondences). With any significant differences and limitations pointed out. That is how to help users transition from the old to the new. I imagine that you are well aware of that, but it's perhaps better not to guess. And: What `with-output-to-temp-buffer' patterns map to what `with-temp-buffer-window' patterns? What about the various hooks? So you feel fine just breaking the behavior of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' and not deprecating it. And not telling users how to get the equivalent of the old behavior, IOW how to fix their code that you've now broken by changing what `with-output-to-temp-buffer' does. This is madness. Leave `with-output-to-temp-buffer' alone. Use new code however you like. But don't gratuitously break the old code that you want to eventually make obsolete. Can you imagine if a company did that to paying customers with existing code? Emacs users don't pay you for their software, but that shouldn't make you feel free to screw them and just make gratuitous changes willy nilly. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 27 05:55:49 2014 Received: (at 17109) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Mar 2014 09:55:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51792 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WT72K-0007WE-N4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 05:55:49 -0400 Received: from mxin.ulb.ac.be ([164.15.128.112]:32671) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WT72H-0007Vt-Mo for 17109@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 05:55:46 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ap8EAL/0M1OkD4Xx/2dsb2JhbABZxneBMnSCJQEBAQMBeQULCAMOCgklDwEEDTwTh2QBAwkIrmSZawFKDYdIF4dlhHGCHQeEOASWYIFthjaGNIVKgy88 Received: from mathsrv4.ulb.ac.be (HELO geodiff-mac3) ([164.15.133.241]) by smtp.ulb.ac.be with ESMTP; 27 Mar 2014 10:55:40 +0100 From: Nicolas Richard To: Leo Liu Subject: Re: bug#17109: 24.4.50; REGRESSION: `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is broken References: Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 10:55:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Leo Liu's message of "Thu, 27 Mar 2014 08:05:24 +0800") Message-ID: <87fvm47yoi.fsf@yahoo.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 17109 Cc: 17109@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Leo Liu writes: > On 2014-03-27 04:08 +0800, Drew Adams wrote: >> In a build as recent as this one there was no such problem: > > See bug#16038 on why with-output-to-temp-buffer is no longer associated > with help mode. You can use any major mode. (Bug#16816, Bug#17007) are also relevant. See lisp/ChangeLog for the log of the various changes and reversions. -- Nico. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 27 11:09:30 2014 Received: (at 17109) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Mar 2014 15:09:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52896 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WTBvt-0000wj-5i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 11:09:29 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:48828) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WTBvq-0000wY-DH for 17109@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 11:09:27 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s2RF9OmT022274 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:09:25 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s2RF9Ov0028666 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:09:24 GMT Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s2RF9NY4018236; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 15:09:23 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 08:09:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Nicolas Richard , Leo Liu Subject: RE: bug#17109: 24.4.50; REGRESSION: `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is broken References: <87fvm47yoi.fsf@yahoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <87fvm47yoi.fsf@yahoo.fr> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 17109 Cc: 17109@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) > >> In a build as recent as this one there was no such problem: > > > > See bug#16038 on why with-output-to-temp-buffer is no longer associated > > with help mode. You can use any major mode. >=20 > (Bug#16816, Bug#17007) are also relevant. See lisp/ChangeLog for the log > of the various changes and reversions. Well, those are apparently relevant to the various changes that have been made, but they are not so relevant to *this* bug report. This is the point: 1. `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is poorly named. No question about that. I was among the first to mention it. 2. That is NOT a reason to change its *behavior*. 3. Create a better-named alias for it, expressing what it really does, which concerns the *Help* buffer (not just any old temporary buffer). You can even *deprecate* the old name (continuing to support it, of course) in favor of the more accurate name. 4. You can also create one or more new macros with different behavior, which you prefer, and use those in vanilla Emacs code in place of `with-output-to-temp-buffer`, adapting the surrounding code to fit the different behavior of the new macro(s). That would all be OK. And it has all been discussed in the various bug threads cited. 5. What you must NOT do is change the behavior of the existing macro, so that any code that uses it breaks. It is not because the macro does not live up to its unfortunate name that you should change the behavior, including changing it to better reflect the name. Far from it. And that is just what you've done: change the behavior. That is the regression that *this* bug report is about. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 28 17:45:44 2014 Received: (at 17109) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Mar 2014 21:45:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55175 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WTeat-000060-G5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 17:45:43 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:24745) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WTeaq-00005p-BN for 17109@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 17:45:41 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s2SLjb52004489 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 28 Mar 2014 21:45:38 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s2SLjaXm015332 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Mar 2014 21:45:37 GMT Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s2SLja5C007114; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 21:45:36 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:45:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Nicolas Richard , Leo Liu Subject: RE: bug#17109: 24.4.50; REGRESSION: `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is broken References: <87fvm47yoi.fsf@yahoo.fr> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 17109 Cc: 17109@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) > 5. What you must NOT do is change the behavior of the existing macro, > so that any code that uses it breaks. I *really* hope that someone please takes this regression seriously. I have lots of code that defines help functions of different kinds, and it all uses `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. And it all needs to work across multiple Emacs versions. For example, Bookmark+ has a command `bmkp-describe-bookmark'. It does various things, but the first thing it does is this: (with-output-to-temp-buffer "*Help*" (princ help-text)) That's a standard Emacs idiom, and has been so for decades. Now it is broken. Buffer *Help* ends up in Fundamental mode. This should not be so. I do not understand why anyone would change the behavior of a macro such as `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. There are plenty of other ways to get whatever new behavior you want, without doing that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 28 20:59:28 2014 Received: (at 17109) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Mar 2014 00:59:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55243 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WThcO-0004y5-6d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 20:59:28 -0400 Received: from mail-pb0-f54.google.com ([209.85.160.54]:34301) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WThcL-0004xv-3t for 17109@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 20:59:26 -0400 Received: by mail-pb0-f54.google.com with SMTP id ma3so5682237pbc.41 for <17109@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 17:59:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=TJLeHhjI6J9p4jfacI5V1uKIXLJdtTF7V/kkO54put0=; b=XwjnHr0S5ju2519Zl7ApBW1426nLeych10ALx6j/fuBShbe/sQrJjgsxjUagKsTYPO 9jRsoCe45cNotQ4Y9teE9eLr/MvJlDRvwAJIP2V+PGMurEzHO8yqjr/u7LbUVZCgKo7h MkG3BDDH5XOrRQfxCsoHKoU4nGYgi+26mKmMV4U5f+tx9cL9E5E+eSNsGt15MAMm9l0J Fi8TNoDuQtub2O2abW2lIxGkGAkXeaZmIU0rngA7U+097ypoLMbovSMLCULCRWdOkHLm U6wBoPYYRNPSoh1yopWlpCotG6YqFSsuRuIDK7T+/9a8TzxOodrwwZRNN+hhbXcV4WR6 6JzQ== X-Received: by 10.68.99.194 with SMTP id es2mr11723128pbb.100.1396054764163; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 17:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fortuna ([222.130.177.137]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id j3sm27718738pbh.38.2014.03.28.17.59.17 for (version=TLSv1.1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Mar 2014 17:59:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo Liu To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#17109: 24.4.50; REGRESSION: `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is broken References: <87fvm47yoi.fsf@yahoo.fr> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAGFBMVEUzRVhbQj4eZqO6SjnT eWpxnMetm5b6/PmidmqrAAAAAWJLR0QAiAUdSAAAAAlwSFlzAAALEwAACxMBAJqcGAAAAAd0SU1F B9cBBwMLBfKABCMAAAFoSURBVCjPtZI9a8MwEIaFoc7aYDdelQMna0Em3tsSr0XUeE2Q6a22a+v+ fk8fSSBkbDUI6dHpfe9OEvRgiD+ApqKPJgJeB6iUUXWESjUe/ig38AJrhqqvaU2nTIXbNvOQ40fe qdry4kyGoVWsfCQalXpHnJGM01wjWdYbMlXNFdsZDO69m9aqNqxEJqTEgbM5OF7wlEfIoll1Ked4 LbM5X2EdILLokEdmI8z7g5cKED0cuTC930TYhy7ZDekkXVGw/L60TguJePPxcJF48lpsSUWEA/Ju jGFNgJOXc4Hz7TmAdBeu5Ve4AEjOi2/2jfd3cAJZ+IbNrvdjgBZY01b+HTuG3cLws6BJZqVOj/pp T0OqVwx3rFq+QmJwx3loK5JSLEhDIt62+mtC2C+SrAUxEbV6C6v2BRbd6pILBKFpepKZJHgGgrKF sptSUUoczpwg2pQ7ZH1tgs0ou/917mzz6Cs2//C978cv5l07L02orIEAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 08:58:40 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:45:35 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (CentOS 6.5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 17109 Cc: Nicolas Richard , 17109@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 2014-03-29 05:45 +0800, Drew Adams wrote: > (with-output-to-temp-buffer "*Help*" (princ help-text)) Does (with-help-window (help-buffer) (princ help-text)) work for you? Leo From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 28 21:39:25 2014 Received: (at 17109) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Mar 2014 01:39:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55259 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WTiF2-00060B-IO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 21:39:25 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:44954) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WTiF0-000600-0R for 17109@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Mar 2014 21:39:22 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s2T1dKZ7025656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 29 Mar 2014 01:39:20 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s2T1dJsP020766 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 29 Mar 2014 01:39:19 GMT Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s2T1dJoG008756; Sat, 29 Mar 2014 01:39:19 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <99e067cd-a0d5-431a-8ae8-84c64f7675ab@default> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 18:39:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Leo Liu Subject: RE: bug#17109: 24.4.50; REGRESSION: `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is broken References: <87fvm47yoi.fsf@yahoo.fr> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 17109 Cc: Nicolas Richard , 17109@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) > > (with-output-to-temp-buffer "*Help*" (princ help-text)) >=20 > Does (with-help-window (help-buffer) (princ help-text)) work for you? Which part of "regression" and "it needs to work across multiple Emacs versions" do you not understand? I have lots of occurrences of `with-output-to-temp-buffer', and I am only one maintainer of some 3rd-party code. And `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is not even deprecated. And even if it were deprecated now, it should still be supported as is until desupported. And support does not mean changing its behavior so code that uses it no longer works. And desupport does not mean keeping it around but with a broken behavior. There is _no_ scenario in which it should be broken. Emacs can reasonably come up with and use new, different macros. What it cannot reasonably do is break this macro. IIUC, Emacs code does not even need to use this macro anymore. Why on Earth gratuitously break code that does use it? This should be a no-brainer. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 09 16:30:39 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Aug 2014 20:30:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36762 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XGDHh-0003Hp-Pv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:30:38 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:43621 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XGDHe-0003He-MO for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:30:35 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XGDHe-0005mm-F9 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:30:34 -0400 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:30:34 -0400 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 17109 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) forcemerge 17966 17109 From unknown Sat Jun 14 19:18:15 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. 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