From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 01 14:16:17 2014 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Feb 2014 19:16:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45326 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W9g37-0003ev-4H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 14:16:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:47144) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W9g34-0003en-Pf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 14:16:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W9g2u-0001wa-2n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 14:16:14 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:48239) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W9g2t-0001wV-Vt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 14:16:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48835) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W9g2l-0007fQ-9S for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 14:16:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W9g2c-0001vg-NG for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 14:15:55 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:34214) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W9g2c-0001va-GJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Feb 2014 14:15:46 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s11JFirU014760 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 19:15:45 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s11JFilb002995 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 19:15:44 GMT Received: from abhmp0018.oracle.com (abhmp0018.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s11JFi8L002986 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 2014 19:15:44 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 11:15:45 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 208.118.235.17 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) This is a regression. `C-q ?' pops up an annoying "*Char Help*" buffer. What is said here for `?' is also true for `'. It is not true for `C-h', however. The char inserted when using `C-q ' is `^@'. `' is not a character, so it should not cause a character to be inserted. 1. The text in this help buffer is not formatted (e.g. filled) correctly. 2. The doc string for `quoted-insert' does not even mention this bizarre `?' behavior. Nor does this behavior seem to be documented elsewhere. It is not even listed in NEWS as a change (an incompatible change, no less). The behavior for `' is not new, but it too is not documented in connection with `C-q' AFAICT. 3. This *Char Help* buffer should not be popped up at all - for ANY char that you type after `C-q'. This is a misfeature. `?' should just be inserted, with no noise. It should certainly not be interpreted as a plea for help. 4. With `emacs -Q', you might not even notice the popped-up *Char Help* buffer, which means that it does not even do what the enhancer presumably intended. It just flashes for an instant - impossible to read it, and serving no purpose but to annoy and puzzle. This alone is a regression wrt previous Emacs releases. 5. In other contexts it can be even more annoying: (a) The help really is shown. (b) It can remain shown, requiring the user to remove it. (c) That can even involve requiring the user to change buffers and delete a frame. (d) It can require that you hit `?' again, to insert the `?' char (after moving back to the right frame). For example, `emacs -Q', then set `pop-up-frames' to t, then do `C-q ?'. A frame pops up with the helpful text. You must hit `?' again, for `?' to be inserted. But before that you must change the input focus back to the original frame, or else you will get a read-only error for trying to insert `?' into the *Char Help* frame. And of course at some point you must manually delete that helpful frame. 6. This help enhancement appeared already in previous Emacs versions, at least as far back as Emacs 22. But there, most of the behavior described above does not occur. So this is a regression wrt those versions. But even those versions that introduce this help are a regression wrt earlier Emacs versions that do not. At least Emacs 22-24.3 do not show help for `?', but only for `'. In Emacs 22 through 24.3, with `emacs -Q', `C-h ?' inserts `?' normally. And `C-q ' does not insert any char; it just displays the help text. So far, so good. However, with non-nil `pop-up-frames' in Emacs 22-24.3, the same problems described above arise for `C-q ', and `^@' is inserted (but at least without needing to change focus back to the original frame). I never noticed that bug (regression) for Emacs 22-24.3, because I never hit `'. In sum, this help display interferes with `C-q' behavior (user interaction). It should be removed altogether. Or if you do not agree with that, then at least: 1. `?' should be removed from the equation and handled as any other character (i.e., just inserted). It should not solicit help. 2. The bugged behavior when `pop-up-frames' is non-nil (or via any other settings that cause the help buffer to use another frame) must be fixed. `C-q ' should not insert `^@', ever. And the focus should remain in the original frame. And the help buffer's frame should be deleted when `quoted-insert' is done. `C-q' should not interpret ANY characters, such as `?' specially as instructions to show help. It should just insert the character ("quoted", per its description), as it has always done before. Yes, `' is not a character. It could, as before (e.g. in Emacs 22-24.3), show such help. But it should not do so in another frame etc., or if it must, then that temporary help frame should be deleted after the char is inserted, i.e., when `quoted-insert' has finished its job. In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2014-01-23 on ODIEONE Bzr revision: 116129 monnier@iro.umontreal.ca-20140123150141-qopqqhpm8jqo8a= 18 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/Devel/emacs/binary --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3' LDFLAGS=3D-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib CPPFLAGS=3D-Ic:/Devel/emacs/include' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 02 13:11:43 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Apr 2014 17:11:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33209 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVOhS-0000BP-Vp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Apr 2014 13:11:43 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:51777) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVOhR-0000BH-LI for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Apr 2014 13:11:42 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s32HBewi006566 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for <16617@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 17:11:40 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s32HBdZf012896 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <16617@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 17:11:40 GMT Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s32HBd6g021860 for <16617@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 2 Apr 2014 17:11:39 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> In-Reply-To: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) There has been no response to this regression report, which includes a clea= r recipe to repro it. This problem is still present as of this build: In GNU Emacs 24.4.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2014-03-30 on ODIEONE Bzr revision: 116912 rgm@gnu.org-20140331004905-epgjyxkpa4nv54bm Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/Devel/emacs/snapshot/trunk --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3' LDFLAGS=3D-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib 'CPPFLAGS=3D-DGC_MCHECK=3D1 -Ic:/Devel/emacs/include'' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 07:04:37 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 11:04:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33767 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVfRk-0004WL-Hx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 07:04:36 -0400 Received: from mail-wi0-f173.google.com ([209.85.212.173]:34551) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVfRg-0004W7-Jd for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 07:04:33 -0400 Received: by mail-wi0-f173.google.com with SMTP id z2so7157252wiv.0 for <16617@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 04:04:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=besG8bHQ1PipwtdC9gL+nNF5rzX5qPPItlDJvLYITQA=; b=g2FVyqjeqGwE8fCSudgoSWa8TXInzh6Jl/0Gh3zp+Yq3Ut5l6xjHMcysaNXQ24kgZo tXeaGUFEDHaYDXSzQo07QwfPMED7MfOZUMM1D8wPn/tloQ7rAfrH4OqFrAcCnvVTc+De 7KrhAI5e0H89jg39YHc1FtYs1wnlPru47aEPoMoRrEtaTcSXZkFxwBFhN47euSldcpJ6 ZCOk8wK10FD2ufOw5LpsrxDc6e6r83+sF7WxaiXtuMZp7cuUwPOsjNPpHP79ZTpl3HMO LPY9/js8Cy3E/ggYSBuAxhxSucuY1sE5X7yMcpBCagajJqkiRNW6FL4wt0FBQ89li9ax xAMg== X-Received: by 10.194.110.100 with SMTP id hz4mr9270288wjb.50.1396523071253; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 04:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from axl (93-20-136.netrun.cytanet.com.cy. [93.109.20.136]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id s46sm11281323ees.3.2014.04.03.04.04.29 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 03 Apr 2014 04:04:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Dmitry Gutov To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 14:04:21 +0300 In-Reply-To: <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 2 Apr 2014 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87a9c2fzd6.fsf@yandex.ru> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Drew Adams writes: > There has been no response to this regression report, which includes a > clear recipe to repro it. Either the recipe is not clean, or you probably haven't tried it starting from `emacs -Q'. `C-q ?' and `C-q ' insert ? or a non-printable character here. No help buffers. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 09:34:36 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 13:34:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33807 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVhmt-00013O-BJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 09:34:36 -0400 Received: from mail-pb0-f42.google.com ([209.85.160.42]:48445) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVhmk-000135-T9 for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 09:34:27 -0400 Received: by mail-pb0-f42.google.com with SMTP id rr13so1866274pbb.29 for <16617@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 06:34:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=l7MpSIlRYa60wco0SQjVAbPClLqLxveuEVSBl01GXA0=; b=wOwGRxeLKph6VV8MVzF0yXFkeEBI9wrxBGNIelKot7oDFnR9G0O725OS6qFyPN88oM 5CvPI99Rn8DyaNfObjjyosH7oJSNNeSuaHB9FWcNXEzjL7Z8+hmSIwmNQ5eU+bTUAP8Y K7UpFePD0Roz/IVyIMtyxrSiWVMUcT72WldDhZFqPU5xTdDLXtczzDkzXKlRoEuCAodZ VQXj4nw6WvZLWQON7tkw6prctyF1qjjXCQLkFCX+1+6a9puIfIFu5BSd6sjvN7y6HxVX R1NvnzGavIe2Lk8+QL5WKiOOsD9yulKl9ASWrsbaKVsgGJ9e/redgVhl9z6zg6aE/1rh C3NQ== X-Received: by 10.68.229.68 with SMTP id so4mr7476118pbc.110.1396532065839; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 06:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fortuna ([61.149.216.157]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id fg12sm25440541pac.28.2014.04.03.06.34.18 for (version=TLSv1.1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 03 Apr 2014 06:34:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo Liu To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACkAAAApAQAAAACAGz1bAAABKElEQVQYlWNg3NIt5FDPUPt7 4+X79Qyucz5/ugik+L2PBgKpyphaIK921q23QDnG0NBQoMr/vaWl9f8ZLL78uPv5PwN7RETfzXoG jhmFz27XM0RXmpuY/WfY+fv0Mc56BvFybfXA/wwL5t/wF61n2PU59axXPcOVzbmSW/8zrNt1benC /ww70hqUU/4zKCtrT9jwn8FhwynbufUMendE2aLqGRpdX9al1zM8eh17lKeeQcTMrdD5P8P3j/YT Q/8zXHSb7p1Qz/C4OM2JuZ7hgtI7K6AjqsMnf8j4z8C6xG1tw3+GqpqvsVn/GTzmpD9j/8/wP/oZ S/l/Bka+QO/g/wy15ueeFQL9N1O8mPU/g+umV3t1gdT0/1bTgHLqYVeXAlWKpMWt+w8Az82C9nHf X0cAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 21:34:07 +0800 In-Reply-To: <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 2 Apr 2014 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (CentOS 6.5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: Stefan Monnier , 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 2014-04-03 01:11 +0800, Drew Adams wrote: > There has been no response to this regression report, which includes a clear recipe to repro it. > > This problem is still present as of this build: > Thanks for the report and sorry I missed it. Stefan, Can I fix it in emacs-24 along these lines? Thanks. - Leo === modified file 'lisp/simple.el' --- lisp/simple.el 2014-04-02 15:14:50 +0000 +++ lisp/simple.el 2014-04-03 13:31:12 +0000 @@ -658,11 +658,17 @@ The optional argument PROMPT specifies a string to use to prompt the user. The variable `read-quoted-char-radix' controls which radix to use for numeric input." - (let ((message-log-max nil) done (first t) (code 0) translated) + (let ((message-log-max nil) + (help-events (delq nil (mapcar (lambda (c) (unless (characterp c) c)) + help-event-list))) + done (first t) (code 0) translated) (while (not done) (let ((inhibit-quit first) - ;; Don't let C-h get the help message--only help function keys. + ;; Don't let C-h or other help chars get the help + ;; message--only help function keys. See bug#16617. (help-char nil) + (help-event-list help-events) (help-form "Type the special character you want to use, or the octal character code. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 10:32:12 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 14:32:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34565 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVigd-0002gn-On for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 10:32:12 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:23149) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WViga-0002ge-DC for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 10:32:09 -0400 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s33EW6S3000698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 3 Apr 2014 14:32:07 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s33EW5Kc023790 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 Apr 2014 14:32:05 GMT Received: from abhmp0015.oracle.com (abhmp0015.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s33EW5QQ005097; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 14:32:05 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 07:32:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Dmitry Gutov Subject: RE: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> <87a9c2fzd6.fsf@yandex.ru> In-Reply-To: <87a9c2fzd6.fsf@yandex.ru> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > > There has been no response to this regression report, which includes a > > clear recipe to repro it. >=20 > Either the recipe is not clean, or you probably haven't tried it > starting from `emacs -Q'. >=20 > `C-q ?' and `C-q ' insert ? or a non-printable character here. > No help buffers. It seems that you did not read the bug report well. Did you see this part? 4. With `emacs -Q', you might not even notice the popped-up *Char Help* buffer, which means that it does not even do what the enhancer presumably intended. It just flashes for an instant - impossible to read it, and serving no purpose but to annoy and puzzle. This alone is a regression wrt previous Emacs releases. Do I need to make the recipe clearer? emacs -Q M-x set-variable pop-up-frames t In a writable buffer: C-q ? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 11:14:20 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 15:14:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34583 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVjLQ-0003mO-8I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:14:20 -0400 Received: from mtaout26.012.net.il ([80.179.55.182]:43065) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVjLN-0003mD-VQ for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:14:19 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout26.012.net.il by mtaout26.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N3G00J00NGLCH00@mtaout26.012.net.il> for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:12:55 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout26.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N3G00F2ZNLJ9Y50@mtaout26.012.net.il>; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:12:55 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:14:30 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Leo Liu Message-id: <831txebg2x.fsf@gnu.org> References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Leo Liu > Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 21:34:07 +0800 > Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org > > On 2014-04-03 01:11 +0800, Drew Adams wrote: > > There has been no response to this regression report, which includes a clear recipe to repro it. > > > > This problem is still present as of this build: > > > > Thanks for the report and sorry I missed it. > > Stefan, > > Can I fix it in emacs-24 along these lines? Thanks. - Leo FWIW, I don't think this is the right fix. The problem is not that '?' pops up the help text -- I disagree with Drew about that, as '?' is a normal way to ask Emacs for guidance. The problem is that the help text is not really displayed -- it flashes for a fraction of a second and disappears without a trace. Your suggestion doesn't fix that part. Even if it is eventually decided that '?' should not invoke help in this case, the problem with momentarily flashing the help text should be solved, because it actually renders the whole help-form feature useless. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 11:16:35 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 15:16:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34587 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVjNa-0003qS-V4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:16:35 -0400 Received: from mtaout29.012.net.il ([80.179.55.185]:47012) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVjNW-0003qH-AG for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:16:31 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout29.012.net.il by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N3G00100NPITL00@mtaout29.012.net.il> for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:18:53 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N3G001Q6NVH2N10@mtaout29.012.net.il>; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:18:53 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:16:43 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83zjk2a1es.fsf@gnu.org> References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> <87a9c2fzd6.fsf@yandex.ru> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 07:32:02 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > There has been no response to this regression report, which includes a > > > clear recipe to repro it. > > > > Either the recipe is not clean, or you probably haven't tried it > > starting from `emacs -Q'. > > > > `C-q ?' and `C-q ' insert ? or a non-printable character here. > > No help buffers. > > It seems that you did not read the bug report well. Did you see this > part? > > 4. With `emacs -Q', you might not even notice the popped-up *Char Help* > buffer, which means that it does not even do what the enhancer > presumably intended. It just flashes for an instant - impossible to > read it, and serving no purpose but to annoy and puzzle. This alone > is a regression wrt previous Emacs releases. I think it flashes so quickly that is impossible to notice on some platforms or configurations. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 11:23:50 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 15:23:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34606 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVjUc-00042y-2D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:23:50 -0400 Received: from mail-we0-f179.google.com ([74.125.82.179]:58173) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVjUZ-00042p-0C for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:23:47 -0400 Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id x48so2061997wes.10 for <16617@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 08:23:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8WhvatnB68tbkrv5GspmjfEKwVCnz54191Dam2pTiS0=; b=cY4oZ1r9zNrzp08dA88XIlC+3HfPSzO+3Iu7WwuSbI1BzYGUC00GxeX4vjIxnkA7b2 9nC4aVKN9GUA46U6bQrjhxZGwn5m2KAc3TBGhJ2ypCafNDSe1jddOXUKc4NTQhRyuF9M PWccT9Oa5cyoWjc3u/gj0tGpNx3yvHtKz/98aUSJuh2JMYclTU+LyIJnHvyAS+4GOCEH hxrT3fdrgIdX2tYhREER8s0NXDq+1QL++O79zO6KsdbjppQ/TMIoeA6BR+7VNgSP3OUO Txw64qZm/rL711jzG7I7fNKW3M5HrG0atO5TSp/DNt4/jUqTgxozydIBGiB4SoqsES2E yQOA== X-Received: by 10.180.23.99 with SMTP id l3mr38632828wif.47.1396538625921; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 08:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.94] (static-nbl2-118.cytanet.com.cy. [212.31.107.118]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 4sm12694152eeq.33.2014.04.03.08.23.43 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 03 Apr 2014 08:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <533D7CFE.6040507@yandex.ru> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:23:42 +0300 From: Dmitry Gutov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> <87a9c2fzd6.fsf@yandex.ru> <83zjk2a1es.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83zjk2a1es.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 03.04.2014 18:16, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > I think it flashes so quickly that is impossible to notice on some > platforms or configurations. I can only notice it if I open two windows with the same buffer (in which I press C-q ?). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 11:39:23 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 15:39:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34611 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVjje-0004SD-UO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:39:23 -0400 Received: from mail-pd0-f171.google.com ([209.85.192.171]:43156) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVjja-0004Rz-5b for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:39:19 -0400 Received: by mail-pd0-f171.google.com with SMTP id r10so1964755pdi.30 for <16617@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 08:39:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=Z1BA4UWIbRNscRImtIB7QZZCxN4PBzRifdx74Jxn0AM=; b=isZo461+seVfmAL4w1SiDXR9Ylx/l4rNLSv2griIgZ4F3HJ2fAVnDhV2aWDXQNJLa6 PTbiWo+ImQGgYfpMQGAXClMtWkQd/ifINl6aE1rI0/3TJ/rroyoTGmG7kuPYuC8kJpmS Hf9pbEqKj3ilM716TWFBM2q87HcjAQFg7fFT5ofnm8QBx6pFoDzwkiYPw5AezQ5a1vjI N79QvwpVf9O2nDfrdva7XwGX+/+pjWD8wlWSs9HD6aiZ4ANPS4TPqjzKdsUAfVWdIM38 T+6Yvdpn0K1MPkVoLzhpqqYk2k+yqne9Q5rF7oh0NY46I0q3q99H+UgmXatLiPPhVgMC UeYQ== X-Received: by 10.68.112.164 with SMTP id ir4mr8080468pbb.153.1396539557184; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 08:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fortuna ([61.149.216.157]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id xk3sm11916254pbb.65.2014.04.03.08.39.13 for (version=TLSv1.1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 03 Apr 2014 08:39:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo Liu To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> <831txebg2x.fsf@gnu.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACkAAAApAQAAAACAGz1bAAABKElEQVQYlWNg3NIt5FDPUPt7 4+X79Qyucz5/ugik+L2PBgKpyphaIK921q23QDnG0NBQoMr/vaWl9f8ZLL78uPv5PwN7RETfzXoG jhmFz27XM0RXmpuY/WfY+fv0Mc56BvFybfXA/wwL5t/wF61n2PU59axXPcOVzbmSW/8zrNt1benC /ww70hqUU/4zKCtrT9jwn8FhwynbufUMendE2aLqGRpdX9al1zM8eh17lKeeQcTMrdD5P8P3j/YT Q/8zXHSb7p1Qz/C4OM2JuZ7hgtI7K6AjqsMnf8j4z8C6xG1tw3+GqpqvsVn/GTzmpD9j/8/wP/oZ S/l/Bka+QO/g/wy15ueeFQL9N1O8mPU/g+umV3t1gdT0/1bTgHLqYVeXAlWKpMWt+w8Az82C9nHf X0cAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 23:39:08 +0800 In-Reply-To: <831txebg2x.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:14:30 +0300") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (CentOS 6.5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) On 2014-04-03 23:14 +0800, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > FWIW, I don't think this is the right fix. The problem is not that > '?' pops up the help text -- I disagree with Drew about that, as '?' > is a normal way to ask Emacs for guidance. The problem is that the > help text is not really displayed -- it flashes for a fraction of a > second and disappears without a trace. Your suggestion doesn't fix > that part. Even if it is eventually decided that '?' should not > invoke help in this case, the problem with momentarily flashing the > help text should be solved, because it actually renders the whole > help-form feature useless. Agreed. Leo From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 11:50:59 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 15:50:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34624 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVjus-0004lH-4h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:50:58 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:43757) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVjuo-0004l3-Mc for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 11:50:56 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N3G00F00P9DZK00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:50:53 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N3G00F41PCSZE10@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:50:53 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 18:51:07 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Leo Liu Message-id: <83y4zm9ztg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> <831txebg2x.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Leo Liu > Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 23:39:08 +0800 > > On 2014-04-03 23:14 +0800, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > FWIW, I don't think this is the right fix. The problem is not that > > '?' pops up the help text -- I disagree with Drew about that, as '?' > > is a normal way to ask Emacs for guidance. The problem is that the > > help text is not really displayed -- it flashes for a fraction of a > > second and disappears without a trace. Your suggestion doesn't fix > > that part. Even if it is eventually decided that '?' should not > > invoke help in this case, the problem with momentarily flashing the > > help text should be solved, because it actually renders the whole > > help-form feature useless. > > Agreed. To help investigating this, I can say that it looks like we call help-form-show, which displays the help text inside with-output-to-temp-buffer, and when help-form-show returns, we call read_char, which calls redisplay. But since with-output-to-temp-buffer already exited by that time, redisplay simply pops down the help buffer, so the user doesn't get the chance to read the text. Moreover, the help character, either '?' or F1, gets inserted into the original buffer, instead of being gobbled by the code which pops up the help text. Hope this description will help someone fix the feature. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 12:24:09 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 16:24:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34650 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVkQy-0005e5-B0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 12:24:08 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:35097) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVkQt-0005dr-S3 for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 12:24:06 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N3G00F00QA6W500@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:24:02 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N3G00F95QW1R490@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:24:02 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:24:15 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer In-reply-to: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83txaa9ya8.fsf@gnu.org> References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2014 11:15:45 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > > This is a regression. `C-q ?' pops up an annoying "*Char Help*" buffer. This is indeed a regression, but the only real bug I see here is that the "*Char Help*" buffer pops _down_ so quickly one can hardly notice it, let alone read the text it wants to display. > What is said here for `?' is also true for `'. It is not true for > `C-h', however. C-h is explicitly excluded from triggering this. I don't know why '?' should also be excluded -- it's not like someone needs C-q to insert '?' in most situations -- but in any case it's one of the help characters, and many commands show help when user presses '?'. I don't see why this command should not. > The char inserted when using `C-q ' is `^@'. > `' is not a character, so it should not cause a character to be > inserted. I disagree. C-q causes the next keystroke act as self-inserting character. What that inserts depends on the keyboard configuration and on the platform. I don't know how you decided that F1 should not cause any insertions; FWIW, Emacs inserts ^@ (i.e. null) on GNU/Linux as well, at least on the system where I tried. > 1. The text in this help buffer is not formatted (e.g. filled) > correctly. Not sure if that is on purpose, but I can see some logic to the way it is shaped. > 2. The doc string for `quoted-insert' does not even mention this bizarre > `?' behavior. '?' is a usual help character; we don't mention its effect in any other commands, so why should this be different? > Nor does this behavior seem to be documented elsewhere. ??? From the Emacs manual (node "Help"): `C-h', , or `?' means "help" in various other contexts as well. For instance, you can type them after a prefix key to view a list of the keys that can follow the prefix key. (A few prefix keys don't support `C-h' or `?' in this way, because they define other meanings for it, but they all support for help.) > It is not even listed in NEWS as a change (an incompatible change, no > less). This feature is very old, so I don't see why you'd want to find it in NEWS. We don't usually announce regressions in NEWS. > 3. This *Char Help* buffer should not be popped up at all - for ANY char > that you type after `C-q'. This is a misfeature. `?' should just be > inserted, with no noise. It should certainly not be interpreted as > a plea for help. Disagree, see above. C-q is just another command, and as such, it can benefit from some user guidance, like other commands. > 4. With `emacs -Q', you might not even notice the popped-up *Char Help* > buffer, which means that it does not even do what the enhancer > presumably intended. It just flashes for an instant - impossible to > read it, and serving no purpose but to annoy and puzzle. This alone > is a regression wrt previous Emacs releases. Agreed. This should be fixed. > 5. In other contexts it can be even more annoying: (a) The help really > is shown. (b) It can remain shown, requiring the user to remove it. > (c) That can even involve requiring the user to change buffers and > delete a frame. (d) It can require that you hit `?' again, to insert > the `?' char (after moving back to the right frame). This isn't different from any other help, is it? If so, I see no problem here, just the usual Emacs behavior. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 14:38:25 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 18:38:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34726 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVmWu-0000q4-1H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 14:38:24 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:26110) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVmWo-0000pr-TT for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 14:38:20 -0400 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s33IcGLp015880 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 3 Apr 2014 18:38:17 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s33IcGO4020962 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 Apr 2014 18:38:16 GMT Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s33IcFjs020952; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 18:38:15 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 11:38:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Leo Liu Subject: RE: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer References: <<891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default>> <<7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default>> <> <<831txebg2x.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<831txebg2x.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > FWIW, I don't think this is the right fix. The problem is not that > '?' pops up the help text -- I disagree with Drew about that, as '?' > is a normal way to ask Emacs for guidance. The problem is that the > help text is not really displayed -- it flashes for a fraction of a > second and disappears without a trace. Your suggestion doesn't fix > that part. Even if it is eventually decided that '?' should not > invoke help in this case, the problem with momentarily flashing the > help text should be solved, because it actually renders the whole > help-form feature useless. No, what you describe is one problem - a problem for the `pop-up-frames' =3D nil case (or equivalent). But that is not the problem that concerns my context, which I care about at least as much as the `pop-up-frames' =3D nil case. The only problem you are apparently concerned about is the one I referred to as "This alone is a regression wrt previous Emacs releases." "This alone" means that this is one regression - an additional regression, but it is NOT the regression that is the main reason for my bug report. What problem did I report? "`C-q ?' pops up an annoying "*Char Help*" buffer." What part of that is not clear? It is true that I also I reported, in passing, some additional problems - problems with that annoying help display. See the original report. They include minor ones such as inserting a character and lack of formatting (filling) in the help buffer. For my case (non-nil `pop-up-frames'), the major annoyance about the help buffer display is this: "(b) It can remain shown, requiring the user to remove it. (c) That can even involve requiring the user to change buffers and delete a frame. (d) It can require that you hit `?' again, to insert the `?' char (after moving back to the right frame)." But again, NONE of that is the real bug that this report is about. THIS bug has nothing to do with these particular negative qualities of the help display as implemented. THIS bug is that the help display is shown at all! (See the subject line.) Why should `C-q ?' show any "help"? Why doesn't it just insert the character `?'? `C-q w' inserts the character `w'. Why should `C-q ?' act differently? It does some pretty weird things: (1) It does not insert `?' (which is all that it should do). (2) It pops up an incomprehensible (in this context) "help" buffer that is no help at all. Totally inappropriate. (3) If you try `C-h ?' again in the same buffer while *Char Help* is already displayed (e.g., in the separate, popped-up frame, which remains until the user deletes it), then buffer *Help* is popped up, with the content you normally see from `C-h C-h': This is the Emacs `help-command', accessible via `C-h'. Type a help option (below) now, for help on a particular topic. ... [52 lines of help] Also totally inappropriate. (I did not report #3 originally - I discovered it now. It is just one more problem with the help-display implementation. But again - NOT the real bug reported, which is that `C-h ?' should not display "help" at all.) The FIX for this bug is to treat `?' like the ordinary printable, self-inserting character that it is in such contexts: `C-q' should simply insert `?'. End of story. Hard to believe there is so much attention paid to everything but the obvious here. If you also want to fix the additional problems with the *Char Help* display which I mentioned, please do. But they have nothing to do with THIS bug, which is that `C-h ?' should simply insert `?', at least whenever `?' is self-inserting. > I don't know why '?' should also be excluded It is an ordinary, printable, self-inserting character in the context I reported. `' is not - it is not comparable to `?' (or even to ^H, which `C-q' handles correctly, BTW, inserting ^H). > -- it's not like someone needs C-q to insert '?' in most > situations It is not about "need". `C-q' is SUPPOSED to insert ordinary, self-inserting characters. For such characters its "quoting" is SUPPOSED to just be the identity (a no-op). That should be true for ALL self-inserting chars, including `?'. > -- but in any case it's one of the help characters, No, it is definitely not "one of the help characters". Not in the reported context, and not in MOST buffers. > and many commands show help when user presses '?'. I > don't see why this command should not. No, when the user presses `?' in the context I reported, no "commands show help". Pressing `?' just inserts it. Let me say again, in no uncertain terms, what THIS bug is about: At least whenever `?' is self-inserting - i.e., bound to `self-insert-command' or another command that inserts it, `C-q' should just insert it. A self-inserting character should not be treated as a "help" command! I will go further and say that UNLESS `?' is a help character (i.e., bound to a help command), `C-q ?' should insert `?'. So for example, if `?' is bound to `end-of-line' or `complete-symbol', `C-q ?' should insert `?'. I would even argue that `C-q ?' should always insert `?' - even when it is a help character. That's what quoting is about. And you will note that that is what `C-q C-h' does: it inserts the Control-H character. Even though it is "one of the help characters". But I won't insist on that last degree here (for THIS bug) - we can save that for another discussion, perhaps. What you say might constitute a reasonable argument in a buffer where `?' is in fact "one of the help characters". I don't agree with that argument, and it conflicts with what `C-q' does for `C-h', but it is arguable. The point here is that that case (where `?' is a help char) is a tiny minority of the contexts where users actually insert characters (using `C-q' or otherwise). In most editable buffers, `?' just self-inserts - it is certainly not a "help character", and at least in these (common) contexts, `C-q' should stay out of the way. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 15:23:50 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 19:23:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34761 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVnEs-000255-Db for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 15:23:50 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:47643) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVnEp-00024v-I3 for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 15:23:48 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N3G00I00YVX0W00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 22:23:45 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N3G00IVZZ7L1T00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 22:23:45 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 22:24:00 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83ppky9pyn.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org, sdl.web@gmail.com, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 11:38:15 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org > > What problem did I report? "`C-q ?' pops up an annoying > "*Char Help*" buffer." What part of that is not clear? It's clear, I just don't agree that it's a problem. It is intended behavior shared by many other Emacs commands. > Why should `C-q ?' show any "help"? Because '?' is a help character. > Why doesn't it just insert the character `?'? `C-q w' inserts the > character `w'. Why should `C-q ?' act differently? For the same reason "M-x ?" triggers a different response than "M-x w". > The FIX for this bug is to treat `?' like the ordinary printable, > self-inserting character that it is in such contexts: `C-q' > should simply insert `?'. End of story. You can say this till Kingdom Come, it won't change the basic facts: this is a very old feature, and I at least see no reason to remove it, since Emacs behaves like that in many other commands. End of story. > > I don't know why '?' should also be excluded > > It is an ordinary, printable, self-inserting character in the > context I reported. No, it isn't. It is a character that invokes help. > `C-q' is SUPPOSED to insert ordinary, self-inserting characters. And "M-x" is supposed to echo the next word, but '?' still behaves differently there. Just let go, Drew. You keep repeating the same arguments, and they didn't fly the first time. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 15:32:13 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 19:32:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34765 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVnMy-0002Jz-Lw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 15:32:13 -0400 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:49136) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVnMs-0002Jk-4D for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 15:32:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=JTTg5c9gvnpqpPGeUKUff6QgqQAx7L2e20N3EDMh0ac=; b=phnrOvBG/mWg/GQS8S2PCFNsbSTljLyUsmp3hENkrYqPN+BfXlifRrFWiW7qfSO5A+E8jswj2vCOTXnMcNZaJZlmCts2X+/ZSKjRT9H+STNMdodTBAgq+kNkEZqMCMwmJbhg2gvpKIGYkXiYZJ8GtXBZ2zHgG8tIo9N0r55SlIYKf7xwjCTwR5N0z3uZoayBSlCDOY9KoeKMgCOSbdSa2OFWvxu4kIvi2SQ4L80buFn3QduJqyjgDL8JwpFQHBVehKYkiKmSeADNeNO46Yz7YNY6yxVMz42m888GHjJNhnkNatX6DEFoKdFfFgQpE9EmAQJZDLamo9D1Pd3THJi1Mw==; Received: from [2601:8:b200:551::2b1] by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WVnMp-0005FR-DV; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 12:32:03 -0700 Message-ID: <533DB732.70704@dancol.org> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 12:32:02 -0700 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer References: <83ppky9pyn.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83ppky9pyn.fsf@gnu.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="E9E98SHJFXhPnuN4Ba0L4A5cxGoPWfgXQ" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: sdl.web@gmail.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --E9E98SHJFXhPnuN4Ba0L4A5cxGoPWfgXQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Drew's right this time. On 04/03/2014 12:24 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 11:38:15 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Drew Adams >> Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org >> >> What problem did I report? "`C-q ?' pops up an annoying >> "*Char Help*" buffer." What part of that is not clear? >=20 > It's clear, I just don't agree that it's a problem. It is intended > behavior shared by many other Emacs commands. >=20 >> Why should `C-q ?' show any "help"? >=20 > Because '?' is a help character. We should make an exception for C-q. Its purpose is explicitly to *override* normal Emacs convention. I'd be happy echoing a help message as soon as C-q is entered, and maybe popping up help on F1, but we should certainly treat "?" like any other character. --E9E98SHJFXhPnuN4Ba0L4A5cxGoPWfgXQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJTPbcyAAoJEMAaIROpHW7IsCgQAMHjKwofJFCi7KB3621yMT3T 1o/KUNwAAgDtozUP9cBAIw4XMHcOl/VkWnCU+4Lbt2cHvqUHH3Z4m0zH2wnRffRc 4MEkBUTEE9Oi1s/rzeG/Nww/Vjclx/vCXlMuH8A6ZWAnPUCZLUK38SO/yQ4ZGPty 2rLRPFaao2QWm0RAv8t0BBI0cXn04/QYNB6micgdfeteCDtVuy664iFAfPqU4qAt 7/Us2BIISoWaTUhZYXVRoTXNg4d1G+9TJ0xPgyIE2xecZvqls9HFLiFD6p8wB8gt U9SIDNaXT2peq58dWrmExpmUeXbhDry/Kc4NUq1vEEPq5IUFJbXmhWdiWy67pb+y qedLCgd8dHqIsnIGDGOYXsWPwkpObPlyGuCDI0HQ2KaS/w1in8EcREf+d887MqPG qoZXwxGqNqJ6HfEbXb0D3k+jenzJajYLNEFrtw1l1GZer62mFQnrsHr3rxVDJcl5 hC7Xv2UnwU6CFW4W6V3n7V+coYuQoDauBv2eGKS8zPyHgwygZ+w46IEIwDBCJalr B0GMPBVfWoNYjVO9XRR3kdB1AWB2IL/4cDaO5Kn5CGMqAj3+w0TOywy0TdWTDO/u PP0uZxJu/fC9mpuSRMLkB4skbyHn58Jv9TFB6mjkB/AHyQ4mU8KUtLS50FOC8vn5 6emu5ayNpdO3RVvAKs1q =C5b2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --E9E98SHJFXhPnuN4Ba0L4A5cxGoPWfgXQ-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 03 16:58:31 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2014 20:58:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34788 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVoiV-0004cb-9P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:58:31 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:42794) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVoiT-0004cS-8f for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2014 16:58:30 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s33KwRFs001786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:58:28 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s33KwQ1g027848 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:58:27 GMT Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s33KwQjT027825; Thu, 3 Apr 2014 20:58:26 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 13:58:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer References: <> <<83ppky9pyn.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83ppky9pyn.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: sdl.web@gmail.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > It's clear, I just don't agree that it's a problem. It is intended > behavior shared by many other Emacs commands. >=20 > > Why should `C-q ?' show any "help"? > > Because '?' is a help character. 1. Not in most contexts, it is not. Did you type your reply message in Emacs? When you typed `?', did Emacs pop up a help buffer? If not, do you wish it had? 2. And `C-h' IS a help character in most contexts. And yet `C-q C-h' inserts a Control-Q character - it does NOT pop up a help buffer. So the argument that help characters must behave the way you claim just does not hold water. > > Why doesn't it just insert the character `?'? `C-q w' inserts the > > character `w'. Why should `C-q ?' act differently? >=20 > For the same reason "M-x ?" triggers a different response than "M-x w". 3. `?' is specifically bound to a help command, `minibuffer-completion-help= ', in `minibuffer-local-must-match-map'. It is not bound to a help char in the recipe I gave (e.g. in *scratch*). 4. And I specifically stated that THIS bug report is NOT for the cases where `?' is bound to a help command. Even though the same arguments hold for that rare case as well, I will not include it as part of this bug report. I'm willing to limit THIS bug report to the vast majority of cases: those in which `?' is NOT bound to a help character. > You can say this till Kingdom Come, it won't change the basic facts: > this is a very old feature, It is still a regression wrt even older behavior.=20 > and I at least see no reason to remove it, Too bad. > since Emacs behaves like that in many other commands. Name one. What is similar to this? > End of story. >=20 > > > I don't know why '?' should also be excluded > > > > It is an ordinary, printable, self-inserting character in the > > context I reported. >=20 > No, it isn't. It is a character that invokes help. No, it is NOT. Not in the contexts that THIS bug report is about. emacs -Q In *scratch*: `C-q ?' `?' is not a character that invokes help in *scratch*. Likewise in most buffers/modes. You try to distract us by giving an example of `?' in `minibuffer-local-must-match-map', where it IS a help character. That's a shame. And even there, I would argue (but not for this bug report) that `C-q ?' should just insert `?'. > > `C-q' is SUPPOSED to insert ordinary, self-inserting characters. >=20 > And "M-x" is supposed to echo the next word, but '?' still behaves > differently there. No, again a strawman. M-x does lots of things. And `?' is not a word-constituent in the minibuffer for M-x. It is not even self-inserting. It is 100% irrelevant to THIS bug. (Oh and BTW, IMO `?' *should* be self-inserting in the minibuffer.) > Just let go, Drew. You keep repeating the same arguments, and they > didn't fly the first time. Ditto. But I would suggest that you think a little more about this. Do I really care? Not so much, except in so far as I care about Emacs. I probably came across this bug by accidentally hitting `C-q ?' instead of `C-q C-?' or something - I really don't recall. As you point out, this has been broken for a long time. And I only recently noticed it. It doesn't bother me if you leave this broken forever. That would be too bad for Emacs (unclean), but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Have a nice day. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 04 03:43:50 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Apr 2014 07:43:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34921 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVymz-00065C-Nv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 03:43:50 -0400 Received: from mtaout24.012.net.il ([80.179.55.180]:34854) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVymv-000651-JC for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 03:43:46 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout24.012.net.il by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N3H00600X2M1D00@mtaout24.012.net.il> for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 10:41:47 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N3H0024VXDMKO50@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 10:41:46 +0300 (IDT) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 10:44:00 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer In-reply-to: <533DB732.70704@dancol.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Daniel Colascione Message-id: <83k3b5a69r.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83ppky9pyn.fsf@gnu.org> <533DB732.70704@dancol.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org, sdl.web@gmail.com, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2014 12:32:02 -0700 > From: Daniel Colascione > CC: sdl.web@gmail.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org > > Drew's right this time. In what part(s) of his long list of complaints? > >> Why should `C-q ?' show any "help"? > > > > Because '?' is a help character. > > We should make an exception for C-q. Its purpose is explicitly to > *override* normal Emacs convention. I'd be happy echoing a help message > as soon as C-q is entered, and maybe popping up help on F1, but we > should certainly treat "?" like any other character. Not sure I agree about '?', but in any case this is NOT the main part of Drew's complaints. He says that help text should not be shown at all, ever. _That_ is certainly not a regression, as Emacs have behaved like that since about forever. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 04 04:02:19 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Apr 2014 08:02:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34930 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVz4s-0006cB-BT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 04:02:18 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:61284) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WVz4p-0006c1-9R for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 04:02:16 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N3H00500Y4XAF00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 11:02:14 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N3H005KSYBOAO00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 11:02:13 +0300 (IDT) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 11:02:29 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83bnwha5ey.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: sdl.web@gmail.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 13:58:25 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: sdl.web@gmail.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org > > Have a nice day. I will, thank you. To reiterate, the only regression in this regard is this: C-q F1 In previous versions of Emacs, this would pop up a buffer explaining what C-q expects and what it does. In the current emacs-24 branch and the trunk, it momentarily flashes that buffer, and then inserts a null character, instead of waiting for another key and inserting that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 04 12:25:43 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Apr 2014 16:25:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35599 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WW6w0-0005TN-UO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:25:42 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:24891) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WW6vw-0005TC-DQ for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:25:37 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s34GPNb0026442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:25:24 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s34GPKiV018256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:25:21 GMT Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s34GPKcp015101; Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:25:20 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 09:25:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Daniel Colascione Subject: RE: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer References: <> <<83ppky9pyn.fsf@gnu.org>> <<533DB732.70704@dancol.org>> <<83k3b5a69r.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83k3b5a69r.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: sdl.web@gmail.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > Not sure I agree about '?', but in any case this is NOT the main part > of Drew's complaints. He says that help text should not be shown at > all, ever. No, I did NOT say that at all. You seem to have trouble reading the bug report. I said that THIS bug is ONLY that the help text is shown for `?' in contexts where `?' is not a help character. It's about `?'. And NOT about all contexts. And certainly NOT about no help text "at all, ever". Those are strawman misrepresentations of this bug report. You complain that I repeat myself, but you don't seem to be able to read what is before your eyes, whether the first time or the Nth time. Yes, evidently repeating and rephrasing has not helped. What else can I do to get you to not misread or misrepresent what I have said so clearly and explicitly? I specifically EXCLUDED the case where `?' is a help character from THIS bug report, even though my personal opinion is that also in that case, yes, `C-q' should quote it. Just as it does for `C-h', when it is a help char (which is most of the time). Why you would insist upon a different behavior for `C-q ?' versus `C-q C-h', in contexts where `?' and `C-h' are help chars, is beyond me. But asking for the former to be treated like the latter in such contexts is explicitly NOT part of THIS bug report. This one is only about restoring `C-q ?' to quoting when `?' is NOT a help char. How to get this across to you? Or do you perhaps hear that message clearly but stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it, choosing instead to reject an imaginary, strawman report (Drew "says that help text should not be shown at all, ever")? If I really thought, as you claim, that such help text should never be shown, why would I bother to point out specific problems with the implementation of that help-text display (e.g., flash/no-see for nil `pop-up-frames'; non-removal of separate frame for non-nil `pop-up-frames')? Those observances are to help you IMPROVE the implementation of that help-text display. It is clearly not something that I reject in general. But THIS bug is only about that display being inappropriate in certain contexts (most contexts, as it turns out). I mentioned such help-text display problems only in passing - you can ignore them for THIS bug. > _That_ is certainly not a regression, as Emacs have > behaved like that since about forever. I also doubt that that is true. Certainly in Emacs 20 `C-q ?' inserts `?' when `?' is not a help char. IOW, THIS regression is not present in Emacs 20. And I don't know a mode to test (e.g. for Emacs 20) whether `C-q ?' also inserts `?' when `?' is a help char AND the mode is not read-only. Do you? And `grep' does not find "Char Help" anywhere in the Emacs 20 lisp or C files. So it's not clear to me that in Emacs 20 `C-q ?' ever shows "that help text". Or any help text. So even beyond THIS regression, my guess is that NONE of the problems I mentioned are present in Emacs 20. The same might even be true for Emacs 21, but I don't have that version anymore, to test. As I said in the original bug report, this regression goes back to at least Emacs 22. It does not go back to Emacs 20, and certainly not "about forever". And it is so unlikely that someone would stumble upon this bug that I am not surprised if this has not been reported before, even if the regression has been present since Emacs 22. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 04 15:43:26 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Apr 2014 19:43:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35683 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WWA1O-0002qb-3V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 15:43:26 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:44881) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WWA1M-0002qS-9q for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 15:43:25 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N3I00B00U5BEO00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 22:43:23 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N3I00BRZUSAGR00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 22:43:22 +0300 (IDT) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2014 22:43:40 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83r45c98yb.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: dancol@dancol.org, sdl.web@gmail.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 09:25:19 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: sdl.web@gmail.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Not sure I agree about '?', but in any case this is NOT the main part > > of Drew's complaints. He says that help text should not be shown at > > all, ever. > > No, I did NOT say that at all. You seem to have trouble reading the > bug report. I said that THIS bug is ONLY that the help text is shown > for `?' in contexts where `?' is not a help character. Ts-ts-ts, and I was having such a good day until now... Oh, well... Drew in his original report: > 3. This *Char Help* buffer should not be popped up at all - for ANY char > that you type after `C-q'. This is a misfeature. (Of course now you will claim that F1 is not a character.) > > _That_ is certainly not a regression, as Emacs have > > behaved like that since about forever. > > I also doubt that that is true. Certainly in Emacs 20 `C-q ?' > inserts `?' when `?' is not a help char. IOW, THIS regression is > not present in Emacs 20. Try with F1. > And `grep' does not find "Char Help" anywhere in the Emacs 20 lisp > or C files. It was just *Help* back then. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 04 16:20:48 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Apr 2014 20:20:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35695 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WWAbY-0003vn-49 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 16:20:48 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:43525) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WWAbV-0003va-Si for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 04 Apr 2014 16:20:46 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s34KKZDC007407 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 4 Apr 2014 20:20:36 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s34KKXxq000145 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 4 Apr 2014 20:20:35 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s34KKXqb000136; Fri, 4 Apr 2014 20:20:33 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <550942a2-401c-41a3-854a-f5f22a87d606@default> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 13:20:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer References: <> <<83r45c98yb.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83r45c98yb.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: dancol@dancol.org, sdl.web@gmail.com, 16617@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > > 3. This *Char Help* buffer should not be popped up at all - > > for ANY char that you type after `C-q'. This is a > > misfeature. >=20 > (Of course now you will claim that F1 is not a character.) You can take anything you want out of context, if your aim is to obfuscate. I have made it clear MANY times by now that THIS bug is about `?', and specifically when it is not bound to a help char. I have also said, as in the quote above, that IMO `C-q' should quote all chars, regardless of whether they are bound to a help char. And I pointed out that this is already the case for `C-q C-h' (to which you have nothing to say, apparently). But I have clearly insisted that THIS bug is not about fixing that more general problem too. I said that we can discuss that separately, if you like. (And yes, I also pointed out from the outset - not just "now" - that F1 is not a char.) Even the subject line summarizes this bug fairly well. The only thing it does not do is distinguish (e.g., exclude) the tiny minority of cases where `?' is a help char. It clearly does not say that `C-q' must quote all chars. And again, `C-q' DOES quote the help char `C-h'. Based on your silence about `C-h' and your argument that `?' should not be quoted BECAUSE it is a help char (which it is only rarely, BTW), you seem to claim that `C-q' should quote some help chars but not others. Maybe you would like to clarify that? > > > _That_ is certainly not a regression, as Emacs have > > > behaved like that since about forever. > > > > I also doubt that that is true. Certainly in Emacs 20 `C-q ?' > > inserts `?' when `?' is not a help char. IOW, THIS regression is > > not present in Emacs 20. >=20 > Try with F1. Again, "THIS regression". Search for "THIS" in the thread and you will find that I've been very clear that THIS bug is about `?'. =20 > > And `grep' does not find "Char Help" anywhere in the Emacs 20 > > lisp or C files. >=20 > It was just *Help* back then. OK, I see that. But again, `C-q ?' does not show the help, in *Help* or anywhere else. THIS bug is a clear regression wrt Emacs 20. And, as mentioned, also wrt Emacs 22 through 24.3. For none of those releases does `C-q ?' show help. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 06 15:33:20 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Apr 2014 19:33:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38362 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WWsoh-0003TS-J3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Apr 2014 15:33:19 -0400 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:33309) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WWsoe-0003TJ-Qy for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Apr 2014 15:33:17 -0400 Received: from fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id s36JXCoA020887; Sun, 6 Apr 2014 15:33:14 -0400 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 7FF01AE27C; Sun, 6 Apr 2014 15:33:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer Message-ID: References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> <83txaa9ya8.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2014 15:33:11 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83txaa9ya8.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:24:15 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4904=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9378 : core <4904> : inlines <693> : streams <1153099> : uri <1722275> X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) > This is indeed a regression, but the only real bug I see here is that > the "*Char Help*" buffer pops _down_ so quickly one can hardly notice > it, let alone read the text it wants to display. No, it's very important for C-q ? to insert a ?. This is needed in those contexts where... ? brings up a *help* buffer ;-) Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 06 22:43:56 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Apr 2014 02:43:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38611 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WWzXP-00069K-HW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Apr 2014 22:43:55 -0400 Received: from mtaout25.012.net.il ([80.179.55.181]:47920) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WWzXL-000697-EA for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Apr 2014 22:43:53 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout25.012.net.il by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N3N00C00398IR00@mtaout25.012.net.il> for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Apr 2014 05:42:14 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N3N00BK63IEUP10@mtaout25.012.net.il>; Mon, 07 Apr 2014 05:42:14 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2014 05:43:38 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Stefan Monnier Message-id: <83r4597tb9.fsf@gnu.org> References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> <83txaa9ya8.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: Drew Adams , 16617@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2014 15:33:11 -0400 > > > This is indeed a regression, but the only real bug I see here is that > > the "*Char Help*" buffer pops _down_ so quickly one can hardly notice > > it, let alone read the text it wants to display. > > No, it's very important for C-q ? to insert a ?. > This is needed in those contexts where... ? brings up a *help* buffer ;-) Leo suggested a patch for that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 29 10:57:54 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2014 14:57:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45184 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Wf9Tl-0002qO-Rc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 10:57:54 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:54796 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Wf9Tj-0002qE-Ks for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 10:57:52 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Wf9Ti-0005wl-Sw for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 10:57:50 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 10:57:50 -0400 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 16617 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) forcemerge 17371 16617 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 29 11:18:44 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2014 15:18:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45216 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Wf9nv-0004cl-LQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 11:18:43 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:50848) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Wf9ns-0004cU-Ky for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 11:18:41 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N4S00700SZSKD00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:18:34 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N4S007GQT6YBW60@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:18:34 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:18:42 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: Processed (with 1 errors): Re: bug#17371: 24.4.50; *Completions* buffer flickering In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: control@debbugs.gnu.org (GNU bug tracker automated control server) Message-id: <83eh0gmael.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83lhuomdf7.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) severity 17371 minor merge 16617 17371 thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 19 11:43:32 2014 Received: (at 16617) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jun 2014 15:43:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53336 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WxeUt-0002UN-DO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 11:43:31 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:35673) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WxeUp-0002U4-54 for 16617@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 11:43:28 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArYGAIDvNVNLd+D9/2dsb2JhbABZgwaDSr0vgw6BFxd0giUBAQEBAgFWIwULCw4mEhQYDSSIBAjSGReOegeEOASpGYFqg0wh X-IPAS-Result: ArYGAIDvNVNLd+D9/2dsb2JhbABZgwaDSr0vgw6BFxd0giUBAQEBAgFWIwULCw4mEhQYDSSIBAjSGReOegeEOASpGYFqg0wh X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,753,1389762000"; d="scan'208";a="68275256" Received: from 75-119-224-253.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([75.119.224.253]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 19 Jun 2014 11:43:21 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id DF1BD60D16; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 11:43:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Leo Liu Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer Message-ID: References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 11:43:20 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Leo Liu's message of "Thu, 03 Apr 2014 21:34:07 +0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617 Cc: 16617@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > Can I fix it in emacs-24 along these lines? Thanks. - Leo Yes, please. Stefan > === modified file 'lisp/simple.el' > --- lisp/simple.el 2014-04-02 15:14:50 +0000 > +++ lisp/simple.el 2014-04-03 13:31:12 +0000 > @@ -658,11 +658,17 @@ > The optional argument PROMPT specifies a string to use to prompt the user. > The variable `read-quoted-char-radix' controls which radix to use > for numeric input." > - (let ((message-log-max nil) done (first t) (code 0) translated) > + (let ((message-log-max nil) > + (help-events (delq nil (mapcar (lambda (c) (unless (characterp c) c)) > + help-event-list))) > + done (first t) (code 0) translated) > (while (not done) > (let ((inhibit-quit first) > - ;; Don't let C-h get the help message--only help function keys. > + ;; Don't let C-h or other help chars get the help > + ;; message--only help function keys. See bug#16617. > (help-char nil) > + (help-event-list help-events) > (help-form > "Type the special character you want to use, > or the octal character code. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 19 20:16:54 2014 Received: (at 16617-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Jun 2014 00:16:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53567 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WxmVi-00084q-3z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 20:16:54 -0400 Received: from mail-pd0-f178.google.com ([209.85.192.178]:49391) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WxmVg-00084d-Bs for 16617-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 20:16:52 -0400 Received: by mail-pd0-f178.google.com with SMTP id r10so2332218pdi.37 for <16617-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 17:16:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=vEqPMl2k//xwgC9FdhZVG/+rQ9VTx5vJaambCbgGjCo=; b=SnL/jB1/JLiKowehlgNIbJSgCoKWVWHpGrXkqJi0V6EU5oyel79q/b3NCax165gTls FJWYZihkw2BKI3o3hOKn7bYU22+//55CGwTOquzFI8cWCdY28IOYaOqAb1ARUKOIwHi8 9zMDeBxzj3g8W0thNkXJy6WT68AA64fWAIq8nfuVA8VjtjLBAgPEOutYuYiRsC+40FhU FcEZzCfb0jIktKH/t+U9C6/OGxU3KgaApB5ci8gleGXHyxxpoKVslBfe2LUXK4GRZVmQ P9rvRvW34XVl3wNgFCZprBG0nvS0M+U2uOWE2+N0SYmse5xz5rs+7zjy515nIjfrg0jx GpNg== X-Received: by 10.66.174.199 with SMTP id bu7mr9983288pac.54.1403223406392; Thu, 19 Jun 2014 17:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fortuna ([221.222.158.228]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id fe2sm10447759pbc.68.2014.06.19.17.16.44 for (version=TLSv1.1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Jun 2014 17:16:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo Liu To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#16617: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `C-q ?' pops up annoying *Char Help* buffer References: <891cf052-6085-4ad4-b03b-83379a85ff0f@default> <7367bf77-7602-4a02-82ce-804c2f88bf25@default> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAG1BMVEUAAAA9Cgm3Hx1WWFWA gn+WmJWsrqv4+vcCAwCRl2MkAAAAAXRSTlMAQObYZgAAAAFiS0dEAIgFHUgAAAAJcEhZcwAAAYoA AAGKATOXMFgAAAAHdElNRQfXAQwDNR+ZJmElAAABIklEQVQoz22SPW+DQAyGWUq65qasd9PNUSX4 AZHK2C1rJy5jpDS4IwRVup9dn7GNafpKIPPgzztXFSujqq1eM2n8h22oMkvxI/i9C97kRfMRUN55 dS3BrsAwBXUtMLAO4lryh8kTjOxKpQNniNxAgZOEe4bZwsDTFhKdqZRLNII4OQNHhEuq/RMkm6Cj TnnEA/fk0BorcYn5qA3oaeAxbaBOLrX+9G48NZ2Fzc2tzDM8Q+tMypEOqYHh8mAWaaK3U/cDMOT5 aMZMABgPXc7zPMs1A8DXO756GFJ/4fMEq47hTsAdn5avoxZ4ywl0c2w4Flu2Ybeyb3S+EqxX2DYA H8veJGEDTnHnrXvRaPyt+2kSfK6rfBZ2tUtfP/mR+pR6sX8BUZ/cDV7tvkoAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 08:16:42 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Thu, 19 Jun 2014 11:43:20 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (CentOS 6.5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16617-done Cc: Drew Adams , 16617-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Fixed in 24.4. On 2014-06-19 11:43 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Can I fix it in emacs-24 along these lines? Thanks. - Leo > > Yes, please. Done. Leo From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:22:58 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 11:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator