From unknown Tue Jun 17 20:18:59 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#16491 <16491@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#16491 <16491@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `defadvice' doc removed from Elisp manual Reply-To: bug#16491 <16491@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 03:18:59 +0000 retitle 16491 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `defadvice' doc removed from Elisp manual reassign 16491 emacs submitter 16491 Drew Adams severity 16491 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 19 01:45:51 2014 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jan 2014 06:45:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56546 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W4m8k-0004OH-BM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 01:45:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:51160) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W4m8g-0004O6-5Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 01:45:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4m8V-000483-Sx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 01:45:45 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:57421) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4m8V-00047z-Q5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 01:45:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52852) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4m8N-0001Rs-64 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 01:45:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4m89-000456-Bz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 01:45:26 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:43248) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4m89-00044y-4i for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 01:45:13 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0J6jBYu025796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 06:45:12 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0J6jA74016188 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 06:45:11 GMT Received: from abhmp0018.oracle.com (abhmp0018.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0J6jAcl020244 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 06:45:10 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 22:45:09 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: `defadvice' doc removed from Elisp manual X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) Elisp manual node `Advising Emacs Lisp Functions' has been rewritten to include the new `add-function' stuff. It is fine to document that new feature. What's not fine is to simply remove all of the doc about the traditional `defadvice' advice system. Even if that feature is to be deprecated, its doc should remain until it is desupported. If this removal is not a temporary oversight (mistake) then it is quite misguided. It hurts Emacs users. The Elisp manual should continue to be usable to help users code `defadvice' advice, in addition to `add-function' advice. As one use case, some users will use Emacs 24.4 to write or maintain code for older or multiple Emacs versions. Normally there is a reasonably long transition period before a feature, especially a major feature such as `defadvice', is desupported. And until desupport, the deprecated feature remains SUPPORTED - in particular, by continuing to provide users with its reference doc. In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2014-01-17 on ODIEONE Bzr revision: 116059 michael.albinus@gmx.de-20140117182409-gz695p2c951idlee Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/Devel/emacs/binary --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3' LDFLAGS=3D-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib CPPFLAGS=3D-Ic:/Devel/emacs/include' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 19 11:58:48 2014 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jan 2014 16:58:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57255 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W4vhv-00007D-Ve for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:58:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46947) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W4vht-000075-Dr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:58:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4vho-0004HW-D3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:58:45 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:38946) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4vho-0004HS-AG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:58:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48657) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4vhj-0004lM-IB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:58:40 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4vhe-0004GV-PE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:58:35 -0500 Received: from four.schnuerpel.eu ([2a01:4f8:120:9382::145]:43109) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W4vhe-0004FW-Iw for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 11:58:30 -0500 Received: from mail.muc.de (colin.muc.de [193.149.48.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by moderators.schnuerpel.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A480F816 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 17:58:28 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 12966 invoked by uid 8); 19 Jan 2014 16:58:27 -0000 To: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org Path: not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.bug Subject: Re: bug#16491: 24.3.50; ?REGRESSION: `defadvice' doc removed from Elisp manual Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 16:58:27 +0000 (UTC) Organization: muc.de e.V. Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: news.muc.de X-Trace: colin.muc.de 1390150707 12964 193.149.48.2 (19 Jan 2014 16:58:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-admin@muc.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 16:58:27 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: tin/1.9.6-20101126 ("Burnside") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/8.4-RELEASE (amd64)) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) Drew Adams wrote: > Elisp manual node `Advising Emacs Lisp Functions' has been rewritten to > include the new `add-function' stuff. It is fine to document that new > feature. > What's not fine is to simply remove all of the doc about the traditional > `defadvice' advice system. Even if that feature is to be deprecated, > its doc should remain until it is desupported. If this removal is not > a temporary oversight (mistake) then it is quite misguided. It hurts > Emacs users. +1. defadvice will remain absolutely necessary for Emacs hackers maintaining packages with the exception of those who are only targetting recent GNU Emacsen. > The Elisp manual should continue to be usable to help users code > `defadvice' advice, in addition to `add-function' advice. As one use > case, some users will use Emacs 24.4 to write or maintain code for > older or multiple Emacs versions. Not a few users, either. Without documentation, defadvice is unusable and packages using it are unmaintainable. The doc string of defadvice, by itself, is inadequate; for example, it doesn't say anything about ad-do-it. Besides, there are 34 files in .../lisp containing the string "defadvice". This feature is clearly widely used, even in the Emacs sources. > Normally there is a reasonably long transition period before a feature, > especially a major feature such as `defadvice', is desupported. And > until desupport, the deprecated feature remains SUPPORTED - in > particular, by continuing to provide users with its reference doc. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 19 15:40:57 2014 Received: (at 16491-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jan 2014 20:40:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57339 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W4zAv-0006Ur-7U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 15:40:57 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:40624) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W4zAt-0006Uj-4d for 16491-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 15:40:55 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EABK/CFFFxKGP/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMQCw4mEhQYDSSIHgbBLZEKA4hhgnGRF4gRgV6DFQ X-IPAS-Result: Av8EABK/CFFFxKGP/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMQCw4mEhQYDSSIHgbBLZEKA4hhgnGRF4gRgV6DFQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="45330585" Received: from 69-196-161-143.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.161.143]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 19 Jan 2014 15:40:54 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 18D746026D; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 15:40:54 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#16491: 24.3.50; ?REGRESSION: `defadvice' doc removed from Elisp manual Message-ID: References: Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 15:40:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Sun, 19 Jan 2014 16:58:27 +0000 (UTC)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16491-done Cc: 16491-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) >> What's not fine is to simply remove all of the doc about the traditional >> `defadvice' advice system. Totally agreed. Which is why I kept the 60KB of docs in the Commentary section of advice.el. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 19 17:32:57 2014 Received: (at 16491-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jan 2014 22:32:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57380 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W50vI-0001La-5F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 17:32:56 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:36516) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W50vF-0001LQ-RQ for 16491-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 17:32:54 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0JMWp2r001249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 19 Jan 2014 22:32:52 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0JMWoMU009106 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 19 Jan 2014 22:32:50 GMT Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0JMWn8G011864; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 22:32:49 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 14:32:48 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier , Alan Mackenzie Subject: RE: bug#16491: 24.3.50; ?REGRESSION: `defadvice' doc removed from Elisp manual References: In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16491-done Cc: 16491-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) > >> What's not fine is to simply remove all of the doc about > >> the traditional `defadvice' advice system. >=20 > Totally agreed. Which is why I kept the 60KB of docs in the > Commentary section of advice.el. That is not the user doc. It is good that you at least saved that information somewhere. Such a concession! 60KB! But it is not sufficient to just stuff that information into a Lisp-file Commentary somewhere. At the very least, it should be available as an Info manual distributed with Emacs. The fact that you felt it was worth mentioning how many KB this doc weighs betrays your attitude about it, and perhaps about user doc in general. But you have already expressed yourself on that, stating in the past that users don't need _any_ doc, and the code needs no comments - the code itself suffices and is the real doc. When will you bury all of the doc in Lisp comments? Why stop now with `defadvice'? This is an anti-user attitude that is quite inappropriate, especially for someone charged with leading Emacs development. Too bad. At least I know where to find the `defadvice' doc now - thank you for that tip. But poor Emacs. Oh, BTW, did you give a _reason_ for carving this out of the doc and moving it to a Lisp comment? Did you propose that possibility for emacs-devel discussion and present technical or user-level arguments supporting it? Did I miss those reasons somehow? No? I didn't think so. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 19 21:31:10 2014 Received: (at 16491-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Jan 2014 02:31:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57433 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W54dq-0007iO-7E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 21:31:10 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:9665) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W54do-0007iD-A6 for 16491-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 21:31:09 -0500 Received: from 206-248-164-148.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([206.248.164.148]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 19 Jan 2014 21:31:07 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 3620B61091; Sun, 19 Jan 2014 21:31:07 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#16491: 24.3.50; ?REGRESSION: `defadvice' doc removed from Elisp manual Message-ID: References: Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 21:31:07 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 19 Jan 2014 14:32:48 -0800 (PST)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16491-done Cc: Alan Mackenzie , 16491-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > At the very least, it should be available as an Info manual > distributed with Emacs. No, we don't document everything, and since documenting is advertising we only document those things which we want people to use. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jan 22 17:14:27 2014 Received: (at 16491) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jan 2014 22:14:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32799 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6643-0005GG-DG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:14:27 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:30922 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6640-0005G4-1a for 16491@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:14:25 -0500 Received: (qmail 15508 invoked by uid 3782); 22 Jan 2014 22:14:22 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (pD951B356.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.81.179.86]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 23:14:21 +0100 Received: (qmail 4884 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Jan 2014 22:11:11 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:11:11 +0000 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#16491: 24.3.50; ?REGRESSION: `defadvice' doc removed from Elisp manual Message-ID: <20140122221111.GA3185@acm.acm> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16491 Cc: 16491@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 09:31:07PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > At the very least, it [documentation of defadvice] should be > > available as an Info manual distributed with Emacs. > No, we don't document everything, and since documenting is advertising > we only document those things which we want people to use. How about documenting the things those people want to use? I, for one, need defadvice (in CC Mode), and the message coming out is that the upcoming Emacs might not be an optimal development platform the way the current Emacs is. Also, how are we encouraging people to convert defadvice to the new replacement functions if they can't easily access the former's documentation? > Stefan -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jan 22 17:20:21 2014 Received: (at 16491) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jan 2014 22:20:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32803 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W669k-0005QC-Dh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:20:21 -0500 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:51544) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W669h-0005Q2-Fk for 16491@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:20:18 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=fDb0igciqsTQZn0m1MJhvh8PPlsg+LStG7q+Lt61djo=; b=n4MGXLow6x6xPtWiKeJbVL3IlMTAbawqjQsscSdtHqPDHTn5/310DAWdY8mGCjIciUbJsE6IXSLv/peJJeTYJN8TJDdp1oMKXsnK4jIxU8eomF3UD+21YIqp3BNmzZgX0gbSq09syNecnNyzZOE7qCKIMGE4QjVNayCBZ7CKzWCQDm03uX57Za56b0TmSkN1Yoxc6vL4X8A48CV67KfFZkpvxw6Ui0EeeFITAL2LL1dvAMdoPZIaNznnzikyrGuImkGnZsJlY6g++aGrZzQJvbSmQVtVRyZmKe32TgFXCQJn8EVYdAqCWqApNnlMHw7xFayQH52ClBgS98LrQ/PB/A==; Received: from [2620:0:1cfe:a1:2b5:6dff:fe05:24f5] by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1W669e-0004qH-4H; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:20:14 -0800 Message-ID: <52E04418.9020509@dancol.org> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:20:08 -0800 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#16491: 24.3.50; ?REGRESSION: `defadvice' doc removed from Elisp manual References: <20140122221111.GA3185@acm.acm> In-Reply-To: <20140122221111.GA3185@acm.acm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16491 Cc: 16491@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) On 01/22/2014 02:11 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 09:31:07PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: >>> At the very least, it [documentation of defadvice] should be >>> available as an Info manual distributed with Emacs. > >> No, we don't document everything, and since documenting is advertising >> we only document those things which we want people to use. Moving the documentation to a "deprecated" section --- or even a separate elisp manual for deprecated functionality --- woudl be a good compromise. > How about documenting the things those people want to use? I, for one, > need defadvice (in CC Mode), and the message coming out is that the > upcoming Emacs might not be an optimal development platform the way the > current Emacs is. > > Also, how are we encouraging people to convert defadvice to the new > replacement functions if they can't easily access the former's > documentation? What if we did it the other way around and provided a downlevel- and XEmacs-compatible add-function implementation written in terms of old defadvice? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jan 22 17:42:52 2014 Received: (at 16491) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jan 2014 22:42:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32810 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W66VX-0005zj-Tx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:42:52 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:49053) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W66VW-0005zb-K8 for 16491@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 17:42:51 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0MMgdiK009000 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:42:39 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0MMgcf9008846 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:42:38 GMT Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0MMgcAL008841; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:42:38 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <434fa5f1-6052-4551-bf82-c7362b06b796@default> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:42:37 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Daniel Colascione , Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Monnier Subject: RE: bug#16491: 24.3.50; ?REGRESSION: `defadvice' doc removed from Elisp manual References: <20140122221111.GA3185@acm.acm> <52E04418.9020509@dancol.org> In-Reply-To: <52E04418.9020509@dancol.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16491 Cc: 16491@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > >> No, we don't document everything, and since documenting is advertising > >> we only document those things which we want people to use. >=20 > Moving the documentation to a "deprecated" section --- or even a > separate elisp manual for deprecated functionality --- woudl be a good > compromise. Those were already suggested and rejected. It should not be too difficult, and would be really helpful to users, to extract the existing advice doc as a separate manual, and to link to (and from) it from (and to) the new advice section in the Elisp manual. > > How about documenting the things those people want to use? I, for one, > > need defadvice (in CC Mode), and the message coming out is that the > > upcoming Emacs might not be an optimal development platform the way the > > current Emacs is. > > > > Also, how are we encouraging people to convert defadvice to the new > > replacement functions if they can't easily access the former's > > documentation? That was my main point: deprecation involves pointing the way forward, and a direction implies a vector: FROM here TO there. In *detail*, not just "`defadvice' is gone now; `add-function' was added to replace it." Deprecation should always either explicitly identify a specific replacement or explicitly state that there is no replacement - for *each* thingie deprecated and for each of its features/functionalities. IOW, either (1) say what, in the new replaces what in the old - e.g., use (new) B instead of (deprecated) A or else (2) state that there is nothing in the new that replaces X of the old (a loss of functionality, which might or might not be important). Why? Because during deprecation you are *still supporting* the old, and as Alan emphasized, you are indicating how to move toward the new, which serves as encouragement to do so. The point of deprecation is to help users move forward. > What if we did it the other way around and provided a downlevel- and > XEmacs-compatible add-function implementation written in terms of old > defadvice? That would be fine too - it would ensure backward compatibility, but I do not see that happening, do you? The attitude seems to be to simply turn a blind eye toward what has long existed (and still exists, BTW). From unknown Tue Jun 17 20:18:59 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 12:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator