From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 00:46:44 2014 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 05:46:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44612 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Uvb-000139-UU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:46:44 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:49767) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1UvY-00012y-Gl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:46:41 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1UvX-0007NW-LH; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:46:39 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: submit@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first X-Spook: COSCO Ft. Knox SP4 USCODE anarchy sniper nitrate Mantis X-Ran: C<-w$,Sc`=hr.}E'.M9%4y"%L%bWY|'fGNY|cUUHz9CNGzPauXb=N,L(~&1@~&|GvCV!S) X-Hue: blue X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:46:39 -0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Package: emacs Version: 24.3 Severity: minor The initialization of Info-directory-list is rather complicated. Part of it uses this logic: Therefore, the directory of Info files that come with Emacs normally should come last (so that local files override standard ones), unless Emacs is installed into a non-standard directory. In the latter case, the directory of Info files that come with Emacs should be first in this list. I don't think this logic makes sense any more. I think the directory of Info files that come with Emacs should *always* be placed at the front of the result (even before INFOPATH entries). I assume the current logic dates from a time when it was thought likely that a site might want to customize the Emacs info pages. I don't think this happens any more. What I think does happen is people having multiple versions of Emacs installed. In this case, I think Emacs version N should always display the info pages associated with version N. So Emacs should always put its own info directory first. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 02:16:35 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 07:16:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44653 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1WKY-0003v1-1O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:16:34 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:53749) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1WKT-0003um-9Y for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:16:30 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MZ600800C15V700@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:16:27 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MZ6008W5C7FUM10@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:16:27 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:16:26 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Glenn Morris Message-id: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Glenn Morris > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:46:39 -0500 > > Therefore, the directory of Info files that come with Emacs normally > should come last (so that local files override standard ones), unless > Emacs is installed into a non-standard directory. In the latter case, > the directory of Info files that come with Emacs should be first in > this list. > > I don't think this logic makes sense any more. I think the directory of > Info files that come with Emacs should *always* be placed at the front of > the result (even before INFOPATH entries). That leaves system administrators no means of forcing a specific version of Info manual to be found by default. With INFOPATH taking precedence, they can. Also, Emacs comes with a few manuals that can have other versions from elsewhere (like info.info or gnus.info). > I assume the current logic dates from a time when it was thought likely > that a site might want to customize the Emacs info pages. I don't think > this happens any more. What I think does happen is people having > multiple versions of Emacs installed. Is this the only situation where the current arrangement doesn't DTRT, or are there more? If this is the only one, then you cannot solve it successfully: the Info system simply doesn't support well the use case where several different manuals have identical names. The only way to have the correct results is either by "C-u C-h i" and point Emacs to the specific file name, or run all but one version uninstalled. > In this case, I think Emacs version N should always display the info > pages associated with version N. So Emacs should always put its own > info directory first. What if the user installs newer versions of, say, Gnus or Org from their respective repositories? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 02:39:08 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 07:39:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44672 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1WgM-0004dw-2O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:39:06 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:51067) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1WgF-0004dM-0x for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:38:59 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1WgD-00028b-8Z; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:38:57 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: Ft. Bragg oil IMF enigma unclassified Albania passwd X-Ran: .9y&YN:Te4s/cN6.m&V)HZqfFZ2:N\<)3q9yQCc|&EB-GTUljQXe"N4n$Ps6H}GeJ8c.(J X-Hue: black X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:38:56 -0500 In-Reply-To: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:16:26 +0200") Message-ID: <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Eli Zaretskii wrote: > That leaves system administrators no means of forcing a specific > version of Info manual to be found by default. That is true, it does not, but only for manuals that come with Emacs. I cannot think of a case where a *sysadmin* would want to force Emacs to prefer some other version of a manual to the one that comes with Emacs. Can you give an example? (And they could always do it with some site-specific elisp if they really wanted to. But I expect it to be very much a fringe case.) > Also, Emacs comes with a few manuals that can have other versions from > elsewhere (like info.info or gnus.info). (IIRC, Karl has stated that he considers Emacs the canonical home for info.info.) By default, Emacs uses the Gnus that comes with Emacs. To get it to use a different Gnus, you have to customize load-path. I do not think it unreasonable that you should have to similarly customize Info-directory-list to get the right manual. > Is this the only situation where the current arrangement doesn't DTRT, > or are there more? If this is the only one, then you cannot solve it > successfully: the Info system simply doesn't support well the use case > where several different manuals have identical names. I don't understand why it cannot be solved successfully by doing what I said. I don't care about seeing multiple versions of the manuals with the same name, I want to see only one version, and I want that version to be the version that comes with Emacs. > What if the user installs newer versions of, say, Gnus or Org from > their respective repositories? See my comment above. (Frankly, I suspect what happens at present in most such cases is that people install the lisp files in their load-path, but do not do anything with INFOPATH, so end up seeing the wrong Info pages anyway.) And note that the Mac platform has already behaved as I request for some years. I don't recall seeing any complaints. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 02:44:07 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 07:44:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44677 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1WlC-0004o5-BO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:44:06 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:51171) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1WlA-0004nx-Kk for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:44:05 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Wl9-0008ER-F4; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:44:03 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Spook: bemd Iran NWO Abbas Qaddafi enemy of the state Putin X-Ran: (6Z5}:Koh_lk1>lUn9auZ>x%!x9)cq-F4F-VMl#)Vpg9A|RJ#\,v(~V/+zz?@i`Z%rJiN] X-Hue: yellow X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:44:03 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> (Glenn Morris's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:38:56 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Glenn Morris wrote: >> Also, Emacs comes with a few manuals that can have other versions from >> elsewhere (like info.info or gnus.info). > > (IIRC, Karl has stated that he considers Emacs the canonical home for > info.info.) Also, when I am using Emacs, I am using the info reader that comes with that Emacs. So I cannot think of a reason why (info "info") should show me anything but the info.info that came with that Emacs. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 02:50:54 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 07:50:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44681 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Wrl-000505-ID for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:50:54 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:51301) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Wrj-0004zv-0Z for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:50:51 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Wrh-00076i-V0; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:50:50 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Spook: rs9512c Peking Kosovo subversive Dateline IMF Pine Gap TWA X-Ran: '8O_*F82nb;ikkH_{\I?IWPmCS0U8Pw0)@)&D4G5SI&_?~B,{{,W`ElrB&;fvpscJub&9L X-Hue: cyan X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:50:49 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:44:03 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) PS I would accept a solution that only prepends Emacs's info directory to the front of INFOPATH if it had a trailing ":", since that implies a willingness to at least consider directories other than the ones in INFOPATH. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 03:05:17 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 08:05:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44685 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1X5h-0005SU-EC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:05:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:51630) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1X5e-0005SM-QH for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:05:15 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1X5d-0004XE-SX; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:05:13 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Spook: Waco, Texas bullion BLU-114/B ARPA strategic TWA X-Ran: IQ'+umk!%_C~L},((lc::!vt|wKR@&0#eEg&f''YQEJuI7*o*;rqE8tPCEmX8o*2s&lBp_ X-Hue: magenta X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:05:13 -0500 In-Reply-To: <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> (Glenn Morris's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:38:56 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Glenn Morris wrote: >> What if the user installs newer versions of, say, Gnus or Org from >> their respective repositories? > > See my comment above. > (Frankly, I suspect what happens at present in most such cases is that > people install the lisp files in their load-path, but do not do anything > with INFOPATH, so end up seeing the wrong Info pages anyway.) PPS Actually, if they install via the Emacs package manager, there will be no problem. That already does what I suggest: forces an entry on to the very front of Info-directory-list. That would still come before the element I am suggesting. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 03:08:04 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 08:08:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44693 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1X8N-0005YY-Oy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:08:04 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:49732) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1X8L-0005Y9-Tq for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:08:02 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MZ600K00EKVCJ00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:08:00 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MZ600K8NELCCI00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:08:00 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:07:59 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Glenn Morris Message-id: <8361pscl9c.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Glenn Morris > Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:50:49 -0500 > > > PS I would accept a solution that only prepends Emacs's info directory > to the front of INFOPATH if it had a trailing ":", since that implies a > willingness to at least consider directories other than the ones in > INFOPATH. I think we should indeed do this. Doing it in the general case runs a much higher risk of ruining someone's use case. Not sure whether even this smaller change could be done during a feature freeze, though. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 03:09:21 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 08:09:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44698 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1X9Z-0005av-IA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:09:21 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:47971) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1X9W-0005ak-Jm for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:09:15 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MZ600A00EBZ9O00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:09:13 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MZ600AIFENC5L90@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:09:13 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:09:12 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Glenn Morris Message-id: <834n5ccl7b.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Glenn Morris > Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:44:03 -0500 > > Also, when I am using Emacs, I am using the info reader that comes with > that Emacs. So I cannot think of a reason why (info "info") should show > me anything but the info.info that came with that Emacs. You cannot control that anyway, because "make install" in Texinfo will overwrite the version installed by Emacs, as they are (normally) in the same /usr/share/info directory. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 03:19:24 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 08:19:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44702 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1XJM-0005up-7V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:19:24 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:56478) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1XJJ-0005ub-9K for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:19:22 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MZ600G00F1N7000@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:19:19 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MZ600FEMF47ZO80@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:19:19 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:19:18 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first In-reply-to: <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Glenn Morris Message-id: <8338kwckqh.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Glenn Morris > Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:38:56 -0500 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > That leaves system administrators no means of forcing a specific > > version of Info manual to be found by default. > > That is true, it does not, but only for manuals that come with Emacs. They are a plenty. > I cannot think of a case where a *sysadmin* would want to force > Emacs to prefer some other version of a manual to the one that comes > with Emacs. Can you give an example? On a multi-user system, INFOPATH can be customized differently for each user, but /usr/share/info is a single directory. Suppose some users want to stay with an older Emacs, while others want the bleeding edge. > (And they could always do it with some site-specific elisp if they > really wanted to. But I expect it to be very much a fringe case.) Experience has taught us that there are too many "fringe cases" when Info docs are concerned. The code to which you pointed was a result of prolonged discussions in the past, and many micro-corrections due to these fringe cases. Eventually, some of the use cases stay unsupported, and AFAIR cannot be supported without hurting no less important cases, because Info simply is not designed for there being several manuals by the same name on INFOPATH. > By default, Emacs uses the Gnus that comes with Emacs. > To get it to use a different Gnus, you have to customize load-path. > I do not think it unreasonable that you should have to similarly > customize Info-directory-list to get the right manual. The question is not what's reasonable. The question is do people (or "make install" of those packages) actually do that. > > Is this the only situation where the current arrangement doesn't DTRT, > > or are there more? If this is the only one, then you cannot solve it > > successfully: the Info system simply doesn't support well the use case > > where several different manuals have identical names. > > I don't understand why it cannot be solved successfully by doing what I > said. I don't care about seeing multiple versions of the manuals with > the same name, I want to see only one version, and I want that version > to be the version that comes with Emacs. Again, since Emacs, like every other package, installs its Info files in a single global directory, you don't actually know what is "the version that comes with Emacs", except when Emacs runs uninstalled (in which case it already does what you want). All you know is that there's some FOO.info file in /usr/share/info. If it is overwritten, you don't know that. So this problem is in general unsolvable. > And note that the Mac platform has already behaved as I request for some > years. I don't recall seeing any complaints. This goes both ways: I don't recall complaints about the current arrangement, either. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 03:22:06 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 08:22:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44706 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1XLy-00060C-52 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:22:06 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:57442) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1XLn-0005zY-IZ for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:22:04 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MZ600900F2A1T00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:21:54 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MZ6009WEF8H0Y20@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:21:54 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:21:53 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Glenn Morris Message-id: <831u0gckm6.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Glenn Morris > Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:05:13 -0500 > > PPS Actually, if they install via the Emacs package manager, there will > be no problem. Neither Gnus nor Org are in ELPA. Does package.el support the respective URLs for these (and other) packages that are not in ELPA? Anyway, if we want to know the current state of affairs, we should poll user of these packages, at least on this list. I personally don't install any of them. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 10:03:57 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 15:03:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45337 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1dcq-0002Th-KS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:03:56 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:33042) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1dcn-0002TT-4d for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:03:53 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EABK/CFFFxKG9/2dsb2JhbABEvw4Xc4IeAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiB4GwS2RCgOIYZwZgV6DFQ X-IPAS-Result: Av4EABK/CFFFxKG9/2dsb2JhbABEvw4Xc4IeAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiB4GwS2RCgOIYZwZgV6DFQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="44642793" Received: from 69-196-161-189.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.161.189]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 10 Jan 2014 10:03:52 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 683D86045A; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:03:52 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first Message-ID: References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <831u0gckm6.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:03:52 -0500 In-Reply-To: <831u0gckm6.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:21:53 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: Glenn Morris , 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > Neither Gnus nor Org are in ELPA. Org is. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 10:16:52 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 15:16:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45348 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1dpM-0002pM-71 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:16:52 -0500 Received: from mtaout29.012.net.il ([80.179.55.185]:50756) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1dpG-0002p8-P0 for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:16:50 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout29.012.net.il by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MZ600600XZ0PH00@mtaout29.012.net.il> for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:17:24 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout29.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MZ60048NYGZ0H40@mtaout29.012.net.il>; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:17:23 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:16:44 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first In-reply-to: To: Stefan Monnier Message-id: <83r48fc1er.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <831u0gckm6.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: rgm@gnu.org, 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: Glenn Morris , 16407@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:03:52 -0500 > > > Neither Gnus nor Org are in ELPA. > > Org is. Not in my clone: $ find . -name org.el (nothing) $ git log --pretty='format:%H' -1 3ce7e03656204ec93d6de42cdbb14beaaa23aa4d What am I missing? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 11:36:56 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 16:36:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45405 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1f4p-0005Gf-Fg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:36:55 -0500 Received: from ptmx.org ([178.63.28.110]:50741) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1f4m-0005GN-Fu for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:36:53 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ptmx.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 475A424CE0; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:36:51 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at ptmx.org Received: from ptmx.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ptmx.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7R3JOLgL1vWj; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:36:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from descartes.localnet (chello080108246092.7.14.vie.surfer.at [80.108.246.92]) by ptmx.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 85A0824C63; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:36:49 +0100 (CET) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=FCdiger?= Sonderfeld To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:36:41 +0100 Message-ID: <1467123.1CScL7TXA2@descartes> User-Agent: KMail/4.11.3 (Linux/3.11.0-14-generic; KDE/4.11.3; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: <83r48fc1er.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83r48fc1er.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On Friday 10 January 2014 17:16:44 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Stefan Monnier > > Cc: Glenn Morris , 16407@debbugs.gnu.org > > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:03:52 -0500 > >=20 > > > Neither Gnus nor Org are in ELPA. > >=20 > > Org is. >=20 > Not in my clone: > [...] > What am I missing? Org is fetched externally by `admin/org-synch.sh'. Regards, R=C3=BCdiger From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 14:48:06 2014 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 19:48:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45538 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1i3p-0004M9-Sq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:48:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53632) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1i3m-0004Ly-D2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:48:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1i3e-0005vx-Qf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:48:01 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:52388) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1i3e-0005vt-N6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:47:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55322) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1i3Y-0003Tu-7f for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:47:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1i3O-0005pO-EA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:47:48 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:41856) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1i3O-0005ow-7e for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:47:38 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W1i3M-0001zl-1o for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:47:36 +0100 Received: from pd9eb2310.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.235.35.16]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:47:36 +0100 Received: from Stromeko by pd9eb2310.dip0.t-ipconnect.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:47:36 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Achim Gratz Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 20:47:26 +0100 Organization: Linux Private Site Lines: 38 Message-ID: <87fvovpqk1.fsf@Rainer.invalid> References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: pd9eb2310.dip0.t-ipconnect.de User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:HPVr95KJOUD9FHGHrgO+w7mEvV8= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) Glenn Morris writes: > (And they could always do it with some site-specific elisp if they > really wanted to. But I expect it to be very much a fringe case.) I think you assume too much sophisication of a sysadmin who will typically know little about the intricacies of Emacs. In any case, the examples of site-lisp customization that I've been exposed to lately have forced me to add "--no-site-lisp" to my all Emacs invocations. > By default, Emacs uses the Gnus that comes with Emacs. > To get it to use a different Gnus, you have to customize load-path. > I do not think it unreasonable that you should have to similarly > customize Info-directory-list to get the right manual. The problem is that it's not immediately obvious when the two are not kept in sync; something that presumably package manager should solve, but doesn't. It would help if the built-in packages could be completely deactivated upon installation of a different version of that same package via package manager (that is, the custom-load and autoload stuff for such a package delivered with Emacs should not be evaluated in that case). > I don't understand why it cannot be solved successfully by doing what I > said. I don't care about seeing multiple versions of the manuals with > the same name, I want to see only one version, and I want that version > to be the version that comes with Emacs. … while someone else might reaonably expect that he'll get the version of the manual that he's installed first or last. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ SD adaptation for Waldorf rackAttack V1.04R1: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 15:04:03 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 20:04:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45556 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1iJH-0004p9-9E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:04:03 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:46362) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1iJE-0004oj-Tg for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:04:01 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1iJE-0003Ka-63; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:04:00 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8361pscl9c.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: MIT-LL South Africa CNCIS SCUD missile high security X-Ran: 4sNP0f,?aLA2>MX$Ij#W,j]2i)6M73D\0fbE[(:Xu0{`Y$+l(MpZ#fyA#}/3Rfvw(i8F'V X-Hue: white X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:03:59 -0500 In-Reply-To: <8361pscl9c.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:07:59 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> PS I would accept a solution that only prepends Emacs's info >> directory to the front of INFOPATH if it had a trailing ":", since >> that implies a willingness to at least consider directories other >> than the ones in INFOPATH. > > I think we should indeed do this. OK. > Not sure whether even this smaller change could be done during a > feature freeze, though. No, it's obviously controversial and can wait. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 15:06:00 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 20:06:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45561 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1iLA-0004sX-24 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:06:00 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:46385) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1iL8-0004sN-CK for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:05:58 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1iL7-0003zl-Jj; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:05:57 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <834n5ccl7b.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: MIT-LL Dateline illuminati IDEA world domination Kennedy X-Ran: A_=M"}^(!8f94/nx>%/:6TGq*^Q4<(8 (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:09:12 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Also, when I am using Emacs, I am using the info reader that comes with >> that Emacs. So I cannot think of a reason why (info "info") should show >> me anything but the info.info that came with that Emacs. > > You cannot control that anyway, because "make install" in Texinfo will > overwrite the version installed by Emacs, as they are (normally) in > the same /usr/share/info directory. I didn't explain well. I was thinking of having several Emacs versions installed in different directories. Obviously if you install them into the same prefix, the info pages overwrite each other, and nothing can be done about that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 15:11:49 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 20:11:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45567 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1iQn-00052I-12 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:11:49 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:46485) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1iQk-000528-I4 for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:11:47 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1iQj-0005pS-Kk; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:11:45 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8338kwckqh.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: World Trade Center explosion Echelon Skipjack Crowell MD4 X-Ran: K{"wnXJtmD"s3n.Ek-"*);/_+rfe>Xh$@D620p\ (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:19:18 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) Eli Zaretskii wrote: > On a multi-user system, INFOPATH can be customized differently for > each user, but /usr/share/info is a single directory. Suppose some > users want to stay with an older Emacs, while others want the bleeding > edge. I don't really get your point. I contend that "Emacs N should show the manuals for version N", without the user needing to do anything special. (I'm assuming throughout that each Emacs version is installed in a separate location, otherwise the info pages stomp all over each other anyway, as you said.) For example: As a user, I have a local software directory /home/me/software, where I install things. So I have INFOPATH=/home/me/software/info: in my environment. There is Emacs version N in there. I have other Emacs versions installed in other places, which I want to use at times. All of them end up finding the info pages from Emacs version N. > Experience has taught us that there are too many "fringe cases" when > Info docs are concerned. The code to which you pointed was a result > of prolonged discussions in the past, and many micro-corrections due > to these fringe cases. Sorry, I think it's overly complicated for this day-and-age, and could stand to be simplified. >> And note that the Mac platform has already behaved as I request for some >> years. I don't recall seeing any complaints. > > This goes both ways: I don't recall complaints about the current > arrangement, either. It's me, I'm the complainer! :) Anyway, my one sentence summary is that it just seems crazy to me that Emacs does not reliably find its own info pages. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 15:20:23 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 20:20:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45577 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1iZ4-0005Ht-MC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:20:22 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:49834) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1iZ1-0005Hl-Or for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:20:20 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MZ700L00C815I00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 22:20:18 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MZ700KHOCHUWJ90@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 22:20:18 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 22:20:10 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Glenn Morris Message-id: <83d2jzbnd1.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <834n5ccl7b.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Glenn Morris > Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:05:57 -0500 > > I was thinking of having several Emacs versions installed in different > directories. You mean, configured with a different --prefix? Do people actually do this when installing programs, except when they are installed for a single user under her home directory? Do they do this frequently enough for us to care? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 15:36:33 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 20:36:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45590 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1ioj-0005km-0N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:36:33 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:54930) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1ioh-0005kd-2p for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:36:32 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MZ700B00CHO6E00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 22:36:29 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MZ700BAGD8T5L30@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 22:36:29 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 22:36:21 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Glenn Morris Message-id: <838uunbmm2.fsf@gnu.org> References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8338kwckqh.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Glenn Morris > Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:11:45 -0500 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > On a multi-user system, INFOPATH can be customized differently for > > each user, but /usr/share/info is a single directory. Suppose some > > users want to stay with an older Emacs, while others want the bleeding > > edge. > > I don't really get your point. I contend that "Emacs N should show the > manuals for version N", without the user needing to do anything special. As I said, this is generally impossible. > (I'm assuming throughout that each Emacs version is installed in a > separate location, otherwise the info pages stomp all over each other > anyway, as you said.) But what happens in reality is either the stomping or the manual is renamed into emacs-xx, to allow several versions of manuals coexist. > Sorry, I think it's overly complicated for this day-and-age, and could > stand to be simplified. I suggest to look at a typical Debian system with several Emacs versions installed, and see what kind of arrangement they use. At the time, this was one of the reasons for the complexity. Maybe it no longer exists, I don't know. In any case, the problem with being able to control where Emacs looks for the misc manuals still exists, for those Emacs packages that are developed and distributed separately. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 15:54:15 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 20:54:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45606 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1j5r-0006En-2Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:54:15 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:27083) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1j5o-0006Ee-9x for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:54:12 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EABK/CFFFxKG9/2dsb2JhbABEvw4Xc4IeAQEEAVYjBQsLDiYSFBgNJIgeBsEtkQoDiGGcGYFegxU X-IPAS-Result: Av4EABK/CFFFxKG9/2dsb2JhbABEvw4Xc4IeAQEEAVYjBQsLDiYSFBgNJIgeBsEtkQoDiGGcGYFegxU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="44675087" Received: from 69-196-161-189.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.161.189]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 10 Jan 2014 15:54:11 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 326766045A; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:54:11 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first Message-ID: References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8338kwckqh.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:54:11 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:11:45 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > Anyway, my one sentence summary is that it just seems crazy to me that > Emacs does not reliably find its own info pages. FWIW, I completely agree. Tho to me the main problem is that Emacs should not behave differently when "installed into a non-standard directory" and when not. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 16:03:26 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 21:03:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45611 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1jEj-0006V6-4w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:03:25 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:47392) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1jEh-0006Uz-Be for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:03:23 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1jEg-0005h7-Jq; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:03:22 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8338kwckqh.fsf@gnu.org> <838uunbmm2.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: virus Centro industrial intelligence domestic disruption X-Ran: *?%B\Mi":-!ud#)B|`3u*fD4m.KTaTG|WFaZ`^+b3ftmpB:\}\@KZ&{]Xl^%}gg*HG}h{= X-Hue: cyan X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:03:22 -0500 In-Reply-To: <838uunbmm2.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 22:36:21 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) Eli Zaretskii wrote: > I suggest to look at a typical Debian system with several Emacs > versions installed, and see what kind of arrangement they use. At the > time, this was one of the reasons for the complexity. Maybe it no > longer exists, I don't know. They install the info pages into /usr/share/info/emacs-N (sensible). And then they patch info.el so that it finds those first: http://patch-tracker.debian.org/patch/series/view/emacs24/24.3+1-2/0001-Prefer-usr-share-info-emacs-24-over-usr-share-info.patch So whatever info.el thought it was doing to suit Debian, it wasn't enough anyway. They should not have to have such a patch, it should work out of the box. > In any case, the problem with being able to control where Emacs looks > for the misc manuals still exists, for those Emacs packages that are > developed and distributed separately. I disagree that this is an issue. 1) No problem at all with package.el, before or after any change to info.el. 2) I have no data, but doubt this was a problem people were solving via INFOPATH anyway. 3) To use a newer version of a built-in package, you have to customize load-path. I maintain that it's fine to expect people to have to customize Info-directory-list similarly. (Perhaps this part of info.el should be preloaded to make this easier.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 18:21:19 2014 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 23:21:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45692 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1lOB-0001ox-IB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:21:19 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:50641) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1lO9-0001on-D1 for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:21:17 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1lO8-0000Bx-Ig; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 18:21:16 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first References: <838uuocnn9.fsf@gnu.org> <4s4n5cl20f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8338kwckqh.fsf@gnu.org> <838uunbmm2.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: Audiotel SAFE corporate security secure Delta Force X-Ran: Ou|^DhoR (Glenn Morris's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:03:22 -0500") Message-ID: <4rob3ja0er.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) Glenn Morris wrote: > 2) I have no data, but doubt this was a problem people were solving via > INFOPATH anyway. I think I'm wrong there. It's problematic... From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 23 10:28:30 2022 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Apr 2022 14:28:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56869 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1niGkQ-0000Of-LD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Apr 2022 10:28:30 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:50018) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1niGkP-0000OQ-A2 for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Apr 2022 10:28:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=QnUrNolMR2J6DZ1aFB3eA67BB182cgNjqsInndTPeBY=; b=k+0qvAIk4lHpyO/soBP+yHnbw9 wW/SQ9NfTConNMfV2k+l9WThwgykISF3IZk50zlaQSk9yyMTMtrCP6jjI7jyL2nc9hZNtH2O1hoSb ow9yfJYYcFlaQ0bOMlpwIgwoQxO9dvtbL9em4DJgrDDkI30aCSWCiesZgMARvG9rqxQw=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1niGkG-0004r1-Lz; Sat, 23 Apr 2022 16:28:23 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first References: X-Now-Playing: Liturgy's _Origin of the Alimonies_: "Apparition of the Eternal Church" Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 16:28:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 00:46:39 -0500") Message-ID: <87tuajri0s.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Glenn Morris writes: > The initialization of Info-directory-list is rather complicated. > Part of it uses this logic: > > Therefore, the directory of Info files that come with Emacs normally > should come last (so that lo [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Glenn Morris writes: > The initialization of Info-directory-list is rather complicated. > Part of it uses this logic: > > Therefore, the directory of Info files that come with Emacs normally > should come last (so that local files override standard ones), unless > Emacs is installed into a non-standard directory. In the latter case, > the directory of Info files that come with Emacs should be first in > this list. > > I don't think this logic makes sense any more. I think the directory of > Info files that come with Emacs should *always* be placed at the front of > the result I agree completely. The info setup is pretty convoluted, so I'm not quite sure what the current state is. This is the default value in "emacs -Q" in Emacs 29: Info-directory-list ("/home/larsi/src/emacs/trunk/info/" "/usr/share/info/") But it's with an uninstalled Emacs. Reading Info-default-dirs, it looks like it's trying to do the right thing? So has this been solved already at some point? > (even before INFOPATH entries). But I'm not sure about that. I don't think distributions set that by default, but users do to alter stuff, so we should respect it. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 23 10:28:35 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Apr 2022 14:28:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56872 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1niGkU-0000Ov-Tg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Apr 2022 10:28:35 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:50036) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1niGkT-0000OX-Gw for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Apr 2022 10:28:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=srVmAOs812z/07MjT3d96jA3CfGsTue9W72/srSnm9U=; b=hapaaH61KpWe4biy0QSTKaZTD5 ZbppeHe4CBtom6tC/lu4SE0w9sh0xr0Mj0+kL29fq/fIFXidWySjJseES/M3ncjPNkpZojS5arnn3 UCHeh5xHDYeR7vovBfWf3j5nDX79JUGppUoLvO/EWoC6pBbDpdmqAHJC4xOv0+9U8fLM=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1niGkL-0004rU-OK for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Apr 2022 16:28:27 +0200 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 16:28:25 +0200 Message-Id: <87sfq3ri0m.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #16407 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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Content preview: tags 16407 + moreinfo quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 16407 + moreinfo quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 22 07:33:23 2022 Received: (at 16407) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 May 2022 11:33:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43853 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nsjpr-0001Hi-2T for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 May 2022 07:33:23 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:39612) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nsjpp-0001HT-Lk for 16407@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 May 2022 07:33:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=HOC/hy7bBejw+PsvoLgsEx5x69jA8SwbO5vvE1UUUUA=; b=UmOYqeC4h2Bg4e+boKeU10gCpx fGbky8T8VO6D1HdwrjCICvzdhwE8vH0fFITCYPhSJjji07bJPuUckPUd1OAcRLytXGWmhX5QVrzA/ QjHIAdJnhGgk/tl15nx41sjh/HjHrlNdbBo793WNFq+Zwx9oOtYdChRC0kLgecFpDCc8=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nsjpg-0005fo-LH; Sun, 22 May 2022 13:33:15 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: bug#16407: Info-directory-list should always put this Emacs's info direc first References: <87tuajri0s.fsf@gnus.org> X-Now-Playing: The Names's _Swimming_: "(This Is) Harmony" Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 13:33:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87tuajri0s.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sat, 23 Apr 2022 16:28:19 +0200") Message-ID: <87y1ytu7if.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > The info setup is pretty convoluted, so I'm not quite sure what the > current state is. This is the default value in "emacs -Q" in Emacs 29: > > Info-directory-list > ("/home/larsi/src/emacs/trunk/i [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16407 Cc: 16407@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > The info setup is pretty convoluted, so I'm not quite sure what the > current state is. This is the default value in "emacs -Q" in Emacs 29: > > Info-directory-list > ("/home/larsi/src/emacs/trunk/info/" "/usr/share/info/") > > But it's with an uninstalled Emacs. Reading Info-default-dirs, it looks > like it's trying to do the right thing? So has this been solved already > at some point? > >> (even before INFOPATH entries). > > But I'm not sure about that. I don't think distributions set that by > default, but users do to alter stuff, so we should respect it. It seems to me like Emacs 29 is putting Emacs' info directory first, so I'm closing this bug report. (I may be mistaken, and there's some cases where that doesn't happen, but I haven't been able to reproduce it -- if somebody has a case for reproduction, please go ahead and open a new bug report.) (And I still agree with myself that INFOPATH should take precedence.) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 22 07:33:26 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 May 2022 11:33:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43856 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nsjpu-0001Hy-9f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 May 2022 07:33:26 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:39626) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nsjpt-0001HX-DH for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 May 2022 07:33:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=gR7k8e9k8AL69neU5UkPpQjJqVjRaG45QEMA6QrogKU=; b=dPdAw8eYCYJcvlkuR1isJj1duE bvkaDIaZRd5Ak/t1LY923cbG7YL5iN7loiMBuTvoCGGCnTA55lcNlyAnW25UXV5//ERPcv7MXHqF/ M5+FALiNGxW126uXjv8gsxMWA2ZeqK2QM1FEoup35dJTNIM7fllYsGTQURl4jbGMIIW8=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nsjpl-0005fx-O7 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 May 2022 13:33:19 +0200 Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 13:33:17 +0200 Message-Id: <87wnedu7ia.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #16407 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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Content preview: close 16407 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 16407 quit From unknown Thu Jun 19 14:03:14 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. 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