From unknown Fri Aug 15 03:56:37 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#16402 <16402@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#16402 <16402@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 Reply-To: bug#16402 <16402@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 10:56:37 +0000 retitle 16402 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Ema= cs 24.4 reassign 16402 emacs submitter 16402 Drew Adams severity 16402 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 09 01:07:29 2014 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jan 2014 06:07:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43450 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W18m9-0006r2-3m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:07:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:40810) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W18m6-0006qu-Vy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:07:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W18lw-00088u-Mk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:07:26 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:37931) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W18lw-00088q-Jj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:07:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42425) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W18lm-00009w-P9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:07:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W18le-00085U-41 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:07:06 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:18550) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W18ld-00085Q-Sq for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:06:58 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id s0966ubu004822 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 06:06:57 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0966tm9020653 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 06:06:56 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0966thE006893 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 06:06:55 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 22:06:54 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) It seems that whenever users ask a function-advising question anywhere, Stefan lets them know that `defadvice' is nearly deprecated and not really being bug-fixed or developed further. He advises ;-) them to use the `nadvice.el' features (e.g., `add-function') instead. Wunderbar. But meanwhile, there is nothing in the manual about any of the new stuff. Still, users are being discouraged from using `defadvice'. This is not right. The new advice functionality should be fully documented, and that should be done before advising people here and there to use the new and abandon the old. This bug report is to ask for full doc of `nadvice.el' features in the Elisp manual in the Emacs 24.4 release. In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2014-01-01 on ODIEONE Bzr revision: 115827 eggert@cs.ucla.edu-20140101192741-bi5hb4xb4kdi2zpw Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/Devel/emacs/binary --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3' LDFLAGS=3D-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib CPPFLAGS=3D-Ic:/Devel/emacs/include' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 09 01:21:50 2014 Received: (at 16402-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jan 2014 06:21:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43465 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1901-0007I0-8X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:21:49 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:53777) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W18zy-0007Hs-WE for 16402-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:21:47 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W18zx-00085J-1e; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:21:45 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: 16402-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#16402: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 References: X-Spook: Craig Livingstone strategic Pine Gap Qaddafi X-Ran: qM-^G7d (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 8 Jan 2014 22:06:54 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16402-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) Drew Adams wrote: > This bug report is to ask for full doc of `nadvice.el' features in the > Elisp manual in the Emacs 24.4 release. Bug reports like this are unnecessary (unless you'd like to supply a patch). Items in NEWS without +++ or --- markup are reviewed for the necessary doc changes before release. As previously explained to you in eg http://debbugs.gnu.org/14801#16 http://debbugs.gnu.org/12346#15 and I'm pretty sure several other times. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 09 11:01:12 2014 Received: (at 16402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jan 2014 16:01:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44053 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1I2i-0000FD-0Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:01:12 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:63123) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1I2f-0000F3-3V for 16402@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:01:09 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EABK/CFFFxKG9/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMFCws0EhQYDSSIHgbBLZEKA4hhnBmBXoMV X-IPAS-Result: Av8EABK/CFFFxKG9/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMFCws0EhQYDSSIHgbBLZEKA4hhnBmBXoMV X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="44564368" Received: from 69-196-161-189.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.161.189]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 09 Jan 2014 11:01:08 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 6399C603C4; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 11:01:08 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#16402: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 11:01:08 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 8 Jan 2014 22:06:54 -0800 (PST)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16402 Cc: 16402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > This bug report is to ask for full doc of `nadvice.el' features in the > Elisp manual in the Emacs 24.4 release. We're still waiting for your patch, Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 09 21:30:30 2014 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 02:30:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44509 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Rrh-0003Vd-BD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:30:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36578) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Rre-0003VL-Kg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:30:27 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1RrR-0005JZ-NQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:30:23 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:54604) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1RrR-0005JV-KW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:30:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38222) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1RrK-0007MH-Ak for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:30:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1RrD-0004zo-2P for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:30:06 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:50795) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1RrC-0004zX-Rc for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 21:29:58 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Rr9-0006q8-Lo for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:29:55 +0100 Received: from 82-69-64-228.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk ([82.69.64.228]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:29:55 +0100 Received: from andrewjmoreton by 82-69-64-228.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 03:29:55 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Andy Moreton Subject: Re: bug#16402: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:29:42 +0000 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <86r48glgbt.fsf@gmail.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 82-69-64-228.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (windows-nt) Cancel-Lock: sha1:d3KXuAzry2fJVa+rIgyzYvfRxEs= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) On Thu 09 Jan 2014, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> This bug report is to ask for full doc of `nadvice.el' features in the >> Elisp manual in the Emacs 24.4 release. > > We're still waiting for your patch, > > > Stefan As the author of nadvice.el, I would have thought that it was incumbent upon you to provide adequate documentation. A rationale to explain why the existing advice package needs changing would also be helpful. As an aside, storing raw bytecode in advice--where-alist seems hackish. Is it not possible to construct this byte code from something more human readable at compile time ? AndyM From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 09 22:28:16 2014 Received: (at 16402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 03:28:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44532 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Slb-0005EO-HI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:28:15 -0500 Received: from mail-pb0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:51906) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1SlZ-0005EG-87 for 16402@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:28:13 -0500 Received: by mail-pb0-f41.google.com with SMTP id jt11so3872131pbb.28 for <16402@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 19:28:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=tnKG1d07H9wD9/BYPFGCHjqF4KPF2UJ7fSzZsXEk9s4=; b=dUu7li/QF5e3zdLoPCA+JQyEPv1fII3eTMUTB/5mKQe733Zo9Q9PFDXizrhwfE8SEA VAtyEyEaeQYX14eB8EofhoqMhbIpbf6esFe4kyMdoXa78+IM/fSWPqGpmp/cjtIow3PQ cTVtWdr/eAecgM9QQQ3DAcHNdqHP4TGVvnNucbg52RsHt5LX8cHCfKVP2rcg4HbZ2JoL 2j6f+h9LpOKt0GVW1Dw7UZId/kJ/Sgi8vprdPMRt9zemOM6twRkKWPguNIrjiZmRz0z3 XLOuuPgcvMQcB6dKo8IMSR0RzaWu4rw4prxeunwBb4b2o/qul/k9rDhOTAFJ168DKNp2 cMeA== X-Received: by 10.67.8.102 with SMTP id dj6mr8160900pad.10.1389324492509; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 19:28:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from Zeuss-MacBook.local ([221.217.244.203]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id vp4sm6556131pab.8.2014.01.09.19.28.09 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jan 2014 19:28:11 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Liu To: Andy Moreton Subject: Re: bug#16402: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 References: <86r48glgbt.fsf@gmail.com> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAGFBMVEUKDAg1NjRWV1V9fnyg op/DxcLk5uP8/voi63ReAAAACXBIWXMAAAWJAAAFiQFtaJ36AAAAB3RJTUUH1goZAgAz00bgXgAA AeVJREFUKM9lk0Fz2jAQhQXJD3CCO70CmcC1YMtcWyTZ14Bl69xats4N9r6/3zWQBlodNKNPu/s0 b1cCQFuZGpfVVh3vAvBJolIXRkapSuoRUtIdFyo1Y5xSdlAj7OtvD1XnXxmWRi+eWgcxyCed1lVV B1CrKyujMoi+eLA5kU1SsjoHlW+nQjTtFxk4MXgrOxvIqzoTZR8XgPaLl419zgsMaSGFPiUOZCIh thsx5Xy9NsK8Kwf/JoQgMxcVJ301HKkcSWaT0O7FY056J4U9xcYfnmVXG4801lW6lqwu2nKFZoHC HuzvaTVndZ+LaRQgZdthXw1cpynEkLEwyFHXk/aIxNQ6QeooJuzPMB+wn+D7JJNsiCcVA13/A3h/ xE9J+WidpAwoYNmRFwyvSRhNVtsdaAewzZZP5uw82QL9+tyNfocyP0McAzICUr5Mk9RdIjWasUNx aIIt6NK4ZtXIMdfMQt3nuMAyWbLI4DqZ4xPq/ag8jPond4XU/cLuOgw6XCFX/YCUfcDAMMH58fD4 G9kDchwfqVefkBwup2uZM+Q4WhJt5jN3AxXCsaS2yXEDuWgS8VOzW0gFjhEPmLyFMKBFaLb1HRwc DiaKwx0EeTMRYnYPQRW3PP4HApvlMv0PttX5v/D6Aws3IOSEwzmLAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:28:06 +0800 In-Reply-To: <86r48glgbt.fsf@gmail.com> (Andy Moreton's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:29:42 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (OS X 10.9.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16402 Cc: 16402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: 16402@debbugs.gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 2014-01-10 10:29 +0800, Andy Moreton wrote: > As the author of nadvice.el, I would have thought that it was incumbent > upon you to provide adequate documentation. A rationale to explain why > the existing advice package needs changing would also be helpful. In Stefan's defence this is him saying help me out. I am sure as the maintainer of emacs he has plenty in his plate that some lower-priority tasks may have to fall in others hands ;) Leo From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 09 22:39:47 2014 Received: (at 16402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 03:39:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44538 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Swk-0005cz-Pr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:39:47 -0500 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:55839) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Swh-0005cp-Cz for 16402@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 22:39:44 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=Z7jyAMmD3hedUalcWE9IOyAY6n6TtvwlblIA2eHaYZE=; b=B52PAgFh0xyI557vV1CPCd6NkR8SKc/k5ckFkD4RjXzTqNDt3jJanQyRKM9eE7JhgwyRqqAk3Tjt+4xZy1u9SVWyG4vjTzJHHcQ1e/IJm9jFGXNjNifvaOqn/x7soPaHDW52iyjqowH9/miPX5W028JY3LUon7fJFjlvEf9wv7qRWagl7HSSn6ayq7jOC+cN0exMoqGvWH8rI+YADbGAI34L9ZsYpYjH5xL6ffmpLp8ZQ+bnQ53UUu+38K92DlPPXwPczcSJ3JMSSrK2W2Wi9pYRc8xQOxH/v6baPZ36jnbTPgFQBZkkS553WNN2unKuNn3PbSO7bAl3Y8NlelJ93w==; Received: from [2620:0:1cfe:99::7] by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1Swf-0008RE-LI; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 19:39:42 -0800 Message-ID: <52CF6B75.5040206@dancol.org> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2014 19:39:33 -0800 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 16402@debbugs.gnu.org, Andy Moreton Subject: Re: bug#16402: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 References: <86r48glgbt.fsf@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16402 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) On 01/09/2014 07:28 PM, Leo Liu wrote: > On 2014-01-10 10:29 +0800, Andy Moreton wrote: >> As the author of nadvice.el, I would have thought that it was incumbent >> upon you to provide adequate documentation. A rationale to explain why >> the existing advice package needs changing would also be helpful. > > In Stefan's defence this is him saying help me out. I am sure as the > maintainer of emacs he has plenty in his plate that some lower-priority > tasks may have to fall in others hands ;) It'd be easier to document nadvice if there were a clear reason for it to exist. Regular advice works fine and has for a long time. It's very well documented has many useful features. It integrates with help. It supports various interactive commands. I have no plans to use nadvice myself any time soon and oppose deprecating regular advice. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 09 23:19:04 2014 Received: (at 16402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 04:19:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44560 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1TYl-0006ot-Ls for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:19:04 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:51602) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1TYj-0006oT-TZ for 16402@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:19:02 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id s0A4Inq1005794 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:18:50 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0A4IlqQ002688 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:18:48 GMT Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0A4Ilti028267; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 04:18:47 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9aff94eb-d130-414e-a476-5f0c8252285e@default> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 20:18:47 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Daniel Colascione , 16402@debbugs.gnu.org, Andy Moreton Subject: RE: bug#16402: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 References: <86r48glgbt.fsf@gmail.com> <52CF6B75.5040206@dancol.org> In-Reply-To: <52CF6B75.5040206@dancol.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16402 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > >> As the author of nadvice.el, I would have thought that it was > >> incumbent upon you to provide adequate documentation. A rationale > >> to explain why the existing advice package needs changing would > >> also be helpful. > > > > In Stefan's defence this is him saying help me out. I am sure as > > the maintainer of emacs he has plenty in his plate that some > > lower-priority tasks may have to fall in others hands ;) >=20 > It'd be easier to document nadvice if there were a clear reason for > it to exist. Regular advice works fine and has for a long time. It's > very well documented has many useful features. It integrates with > help. It supports various interactive commands. I have no plans > to use nadvice myself any time soon and oppose deprecating regular > advice. 1. I suspect that there is some misunderstanding here. Let me try to clear some of it up, if so. I filed the bug report, because Stefan often suggests to people to use the new advice system provided by nadvice.el. He tells them that the "old", `defadvice' system is on the way out (will be deprecated at some point). I noticed that currently the only advice system documented in the Elisp manual is the "old" one, and there is no mention of it becoming deprecated, and there is no mention of any other (e.g. nadvice.el) advice system. The purpose of the bug was to get the new policy reflected in the Elisp manual. Glenn closed the bug, reminding me that this new feature is flagged in the NEWS file as something that needs to be documented before the Emacs 24.4 release. IOW, the bug report was not needed (so it is noise) - the feature is anyway slated to be documented. Does that help clarify things? The use of nadvice functionality does need to be documented in the Elisp manual for 24.4, but they already plan to do that. If someone wants to help by submitting a patch to the manual, they are welcome to do so. That, apparently, is Stefan's message here. 2. As far as I know (but someone will correct me if I'm wrong), Stefan has already decided to deprecate the use of defadvice, like it or not. I have filed other bugs for defadvice, and he has made it clear for at least some that they won't be fixed, saying: "I have no interest in improving advice.el." In sum, it seems clear that they do not intend to fix at least some defadvice problems, since defadvice is anyway on its way out. Some defadvice bugs I reported recently: * #14070 - a defadvice doc bug. * #14130 - another defadvice doc bug. * #14734 - inability now to update the doc of an advised function (the new doc is available only by way of a link from the original doc now). * #15666 - you can no longer advise a special form. (You could do that in the past, but that was a while ago - this regression is unrelated to the move to nadvice.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 09 23:19:22 2014 Received: (at 16402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 04:19:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44563 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1TZ3-0006pV-L5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:19:21 -0500 Received: from mail-pa0-f49.google.com ([209.85.220.49]:37296) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1TZ1-0006pJ-Af for 16402@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 23:19:19 -0500 Received: by mail-pa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id bj1so391061pad.8 for <16402@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 20:19:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=w7a3tgCCZMckbhmxfRXToDa7zWN9HX9dUkyuh4bAdgo=; b=fUmUP30H0vI+VDpNFEvMD1oBqnZLFqE69NFrqkTPiaDcKW1/JuaHQfbc8/42jz1DEL hIqtZ+HIsFytLvn31cwXijmx/AiTLOTDHG+8+/nbBhc+BcGwa7T5HRVrWwJhN8m+mUwr V7wkKBhRZxy8P9tsbxkf882mcyS2cxE9rPSlrqsiiYKo4PCf+HwaFe2XMbbGOaMUutzX Ors18RcM7tet82+D/sJ7pBre9iZ2mIQ7KUUkvIcfne+We++BfWumZ6ipSN86lOU6FsbY GfqSWRG1ObDdS8lfMFbRle/s55H1FbIRI9lD9u8tBmy5baiHm9Bl+oTKKfYR7Lub7VTc d7Cg== X-Received: by 10.66.175.4 with SMTP id bw4mr8459976pac.56.1389327558411; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 20:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from Zeuss-MacBook.local ([221.217.244.203]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id xs1sm17550186pac.7.2014.01.09.20.19.13 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jan 2014 20:19:17 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Liu To: Daniel Colascione Subject: Re: bug#16402: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 References: <86r48glgbt.fsf@gmail.com> <52CF6B75.5040206@dancol.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoAgMAAADxkFD+AAAADFBMVEUvT09qWs3/pQD///+J kUVcAAAAAWJLR0QAiAUdSAAAAAlwSFlzAAALEwAACxMBAJqcGAAAAAd0SU1FB9cBBwMLOd3veKQA AACuSURBVBjTldE9CgIxEAXgB+lEyFUC2wo5ikdZ8DSypxhMY7H9VuIVwlqkGRgnm59VsHGafIQ3 CZlAtmKIRaHETgYa12lqvEsPYKf8wXHsPGfqPaUM0g9aJPKFXkmNQmSDqwzz4Fpgpz+6WAPY2z5o uPJJpu0uypcl4nyCibMLQ8lCiVjayLoQvw5LsVKQuHPRR958HZbOcVsKeepcLxpByjycGvnKmY+c MBvrtyjfe0vmuLvdq/kAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 12:19:10 +0800 In-Reply-To: <52CF6B75.5040206@dancol.org> (Daniel Colascione's message of "Thu, 09 Jan 2014 19:39:33 -0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (OS X 10.9.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16402 Cc: Andy Moreton , 16402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 2014-01-10 11:39 +0800, Daniel Colascione wrote: > It'd be easier to document nadvice if there were a clear reason for it > to exist. Regular advice works fine and has for a long time. It's very > well documented has many useful features. It integrates with help. It > supports various interactive commands. I have no plans to use nadvice > myself any time soon and oppose deprecating regular advice. I agree. People will have a few dozens of defadvice's in their init file. I think nadvice might be able to cover 99% of defadvice over time. The code is at manageable size (a few hindered lines) and looks clean. But I haven't started using it since I am still mostly using 24.3. Leo From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 09:42:54 2014 Received: (at 16402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 14:42:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44883 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1dIU-0001oU-7R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:42:54 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:54986) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1dIR-0001oH-8l for 16402@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:42:51 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EABK/CFFFxKG9/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMFCwsOJhIUGA0kiB4GwS2RCgOIYZwZgV6DFQ X-IPAS-Result: Av8EABK/CFFFxKG9/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMFCwsOJhIUGA0kiB4GwS2RCgOIYZwZgV6DFQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="44641000" Received: from 69-196-161-189.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.161.189]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 10 Jan 2014 09:42:50 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 622CC6045A; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:42:50 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Andy Moreton Subject: Re: bug#16402: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 Message-ID: References: <86r48glgbt.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:42:50 -0500 In-Reply-To: <86r48glgbt.fsf@gmail.com> (Andy Moreton's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 02:29:42 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16402 Cc: 16402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > A rationale to explain why the existing advice package needs changing > would also be helpful. Here are some of the reasons: - I implemented add-function, which is a different feature not provided by advice.el. - implementing advice-add on top of the add-function code takes just 8KB. - by contrast advice.el was 150KB (now reduced to 130KB by using nadvice.el). - once add-function is documented, documenting advice-add is similarly much simpler than defadvice. - advice-add fixes several problems in defadvice: - the fact that defadvice does not expand macros in its code unless you explicitly ask for the advice to be compiled. - the fact that defadvice only compiles either too early (via the "precompilation", which is rarely used and rightly so) or too late (when activating the advice), so you typically won't get any byte-compiler warnings. - ad-do-it and ad-return-value in `around' advice don't work the way people intuitively expect them to. - ad-activate and ad-deactivate have global effects (i.e. they affect all advices applied to that symbol), so any use of those within a package is a bug in the waiting. - the distinction between enabling/disabling and activating/deactivating is "too subtle" for the users of defadvice: it's really just a reflection of the underlying implementation. - advice.el is much too large to be preloaded, so for example debug.el refrained from using it. > As an aside, storing raw bytecode in advice--where-alist seems hackish. Agreed. > Is it not possible to construct this byte code from something more > human readable at compile time ? It's possible, but the pre-existing code which does something like that is in the byte-compiler and does not provide quite the right feature. It didn't seem worth the trouble to restructure that code just for that one use. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 10:15:44 2014 Received: (at 16402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 15:15:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45344 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1doF-0002n3-1C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:15:43 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:36882) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1doC-0002mt-CZ for 16402@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:15:40 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id s0AFFciV021903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:15:39 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0AFFaK7009552 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:15:37 GMT Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0AFFax1009537; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:15:36 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4e0a82f8-0a1b-4325-ba66-dc5c61ae53b4@default> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 07:15:35 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier , Andy Moreton Subject: RE: bug#16402: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 References: <86r48glgbt.fsf@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16402 Cc: 16402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) > > A rationale to explain why the existing advice package needs > > changing would also be helpful. >=20 > Here are some of the reasons: Excellent. Very glad to see design rationale documented like this. Seriously. (Please keep it up.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 16:21:24 2014 Received: (at 16402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 21:21:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45615 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1jW7-0006zc-BI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:21:23 -0500 Received: from dancol.org ([96.126.100.184]:58989) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1jW4-0006zT-0J for 16402@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:21:21 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dancol.org; s=x; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=qfO1lrjErV4kAQQOcByfPRDRk6G/XGH3VhowjNE+1IA=; b=ezbPJ/H9wxBBtdtCYVgCe5ugA8zRYjOwVabc3CcgCiC0eedUgkMputxsECIyok/IotiNE10pLr8LSyY3GN9JcjvtbOt5SfKEY2wTwjmwzq2ut6mnwfwxg2fDf3EqAzvtWvm2GQbC3Of1yfNqpAXviuvKOmT6Db1b8zhsqHQvQZ0vyC0UAVxVTJQ4r+EHMzumPSHGwrhFheVuj8UT1CUaN6+HtwoDHsBE1ehPJxmPr6k2uWtsexQCEkc4JqRQUp9CP/QQFoIyrm8eR49U5kWZQ/AQ43uSyU3xKJo5SOTEIf50JEte013tpEph4pQmghs9LJUnbtEo4PLPo7j0i1iPzA==; Received: from [2620:0:1cfe:18:863a:4bff:fec8:e538] by dancol.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1jW0-00028y-BA; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:21:16 -0800 Message-ID: <52D06443.2020700@dancol.org> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:21:07 -0800 From: Daniel Colascione User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Adams , Stefan Monnier , Andy Moreton Subject: Re: bug#16402: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 References: <86r48glgbt.fsf@gmail.com> <4e0a82f8-0a1b-4325-ba66-dc5c61ae53b4@default> In-Reply-To: <4e0a82f8-0a1b-4325-ba66-dc5c61ae53b4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16402 Cc: 16402@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) On 01/10/2014 07:15 AM, Drew Adams wrote: >>> A rationale to explain why the existing advice package needs >>> changing would also be helpful. >> >> Here are some of the reasons: > > Excellent. Very glad to see design rationale documented like this. > Seriously. (Please keep it up.) Agreed. nadvice sounds like a good implementation change. The advice *interface*, however, isn't going away, so I'm hesitant to recommend the nadvice interface as well. Users will be confused about which to use. (Yes, we can tell users that advice is deprecated, but then a very large amount of working elisp code users see is "deprecated". What message does that send?) There's one part where I'm not sure I agree though. >> - advice.el is much too large to be preloaded, >> so for example debug.el refrained from using it. So what if it's large? Isn't it *because* a commonly-used package is large that we want to preload it? This way, we pay up-front for the cost of loading that package instead of making users load it on each start. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 10 16:50:06 2014 Received: (at 16402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jan 2014 21:50:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45650 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1jxt-0007nq-DC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:05 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:49049) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1jxq-0007nf-Vd for 16402@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:03 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EABK/CFFFxKG9/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMFCwsOJhIUGA0kiB4GwS2RCgOIYZwZgV6DFQ X-IPAS-Result: Av8EABK/CFFFxKG9/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMFCwsOJhIUGA0kiB4GwS2RCgOIYZwZgV6DFQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="44686151" Received: from 69-196-161-189.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.161.189]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 10 Jan 2014 16:50:01 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id C452D6045A; Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:01 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Daniel Colascione Subject: Re: bug#16402: 24.3.50; Document nadvice.el stuff in Elisp manual before Emacs 24.4 Message-ID: References: <86r48glgbt.fsf@gmail.com> <4e0a82f8-0a1b-4325-ba66-dc5c61ae53b4@default> <52D06443.2020700@dancol.org> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 16:50:01 -0500 In-Reply-To: <52D06443.2020700@dancol.org> (Daniel Colascione's message of "Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:21:07 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16402 Cc: Andy Moreton , 16402@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > Agreed. nadvice sounds like a good implementation change. The advice > *interface*, however, isn't going away, so I'm hesitant to recommend the > nadvice interface as well. The problems that advice-add fixes as compared to defadvice are either problems in the interface, or internal problems which were not solved by retargetting defadvice on top of advice-add. IOW they're still in defadvice and are not likely to disappear any time soon. The advice-add interface is simpler, which is why I advocate it. > (Yes, we can tell users that advice is deprecated, but then a very > large amount of working elisp code users see is "deprecated". Yes, it'll take time for the code to move to advice-add. There's not much we can do about it. I don't think advice.el will really disappear, just like cl.el won't really disappear. Maybe at some point it'll move to GNU ELPA, tho. >>> - advice.el is much too large to be preloaded, >>> so for example debug.el refrained from using it. > So what if it's large? Isn't it *because* a commonly-used package is large > that we want to preload it? This way, we pay up-front for the cost of > loading that package instead of making users load it on each start. Could be. But the fact is that advice.el was not preloaded because it was perceived to be too big and not used enough to justify it. And in many cases the reason why it wasn't used is because it didn't seem worth the trouble loading this big package just to tweak this little function. Stefan From unknown Fri Aug 15 03:56:37 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2014 12:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator