From unknown Sun Jun 22 03:49:54 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#16282 <16282@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#16282 <16282@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: revisit; reasoning for not using ENV vars to provide workarounds for POSIX limitations? Reply-To: bug#16282 <16282@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 10:49:54 +0000 retitle 16282 revisit; reasoning for not using ENV vars to provide workarou= nds for POSIX limitations? reassign 16282 coreutils submitter 16282 Linda Walsh severity 16282 wishlist tag 16282 wontfix thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 28 13:38:25 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Dec 2013 18:38:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48895 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VwymG-0005d8-OU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 13:38:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:47393) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VwymE-0005cy-PJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 13:38:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vwym5-0002SO-VP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 13:38:22 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:45578) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vwym5-0002SK-SU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 13:38:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:49115) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vwylz-0003Fb-Lr for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 13:38:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vwylt-0002Qu-Mi for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 13:38:07 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:60756) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vwylt-0002QP-9W for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 13:38:01 -0500 Received: from [192.168.4.12] (Athenae [192.168.4.12]) by Ishtar.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id rBSIbsCo063265 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 10:37:57 -0800 Message-ID: <52BF1A82.5020207@tlinx.org> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 10:37:54 -0800 From: Linda Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Subject: revisit; reasoning for not using ENV vars to provide workarounds for POSIX limitations? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (no timestamps) [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) I didn't fully understand the reasoning for not wanting ENV vars to override unwanted behaviors. Specifically, I'm thinking about "rm -fr .", but there are some others it could apply to as well. ENV vars are used to configure all sorta of GNU utils -- so why the reluctance to do so in order to provide backwards compatibility in overcoming prescribed limitations imposed by POSIX? It's not like it's impossible to create ENV vars that are unlikely to collide with normal ENV var usage, i.e. _rm::EXPERT=allow_dot[,..other features]. Adding colons to the middle of the env var, should both, prevent any accidental setting/usage of such as well as making such overrides easy to find and filter on (if all included '::' after the util name, for example and all started with _ -- they would tend to collate together and the '::' would likely be unique enough to filter on in a grep'ing of the environment. If the issue was accident setting or collision with other usage, something like that would seem to address that problem. If there are other issues, I'm not aware of them... Thanks for any input... From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 28 15:03:28 2013 Received: (at 16282) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Dec 2013 20:03:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49013 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vx06Z-00025P-VF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 15:03:28 -0500 Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.62]:52170) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vx06Y-00025H-H9 for 16282@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 15:03:27 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B206F39E8122; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 12:03:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at smtp.cs.ucla.edu Received: from smtp.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZEZyyzTtCqoZ; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 12:03:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (pool-108-0-233-62.lsanca.fios.verizon.net [108.0.233.62]) by smtp.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6AF4339E8100; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 12:03:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <52BF2E88.8010700@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 12:03:20 -0800 From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linda Walsh , 16282@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#16282: revisit; reasoning for not using ENV vars to provide workarounds for POSIX limitations? References: <52BF1A82.5020207@tlinx.org> In-Reply-To: <52BF1A82.5020207@tlinx.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16282 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) Linda Walsh wrote: > Adding colons to the middle of the env var That would make the var impossible to use from the shell. And no matter what the name is, if it makes a standard utility behave in odd ways, it'll break scripts that don't expect the odd behavior. That's the essential objection here. Yes, we've used env vars in the past for this, but we've come to regret it, and we don't want to make matters worse in this respect without a compelling justification. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 28 19:01:07 2013 Received: (at 16282) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2013 00:01:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49290 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vx3oY-00011u-AS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 19:01:06 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:60999) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vx3oR-00011Q-Ly for 16282@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 19:01:00 -0500 Received: from [192.168.4.12] (Athenae [192.168.4.12]) by Ishtar.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id rBT00mog014493; Sat, 28 Dec 2013 16:00:51 -0800 Message-ID: <52BF6630.7010601@tlinx.org> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 16:00:48 -0800 From: Linda Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#16282: revisit; reasoning for not using ENV vars to provide workarounds for POSIX limitations? References: <52BF1A82.5020207@tlinx.org> <52BF2E88.8010700@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <52BF2E88.8010700@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16282 Cc: 16282@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) Paul Eggert wrote: > Linda Walsh wrote: > > Adding colons to the middle of the env var > > That would make the var impossible to use from the shell. ---- That's what I thought you'd say -- meaning it would be well protected against accidental usage. However: > env foobar::snore=1 |grep :: foobar::snore=1 > > And no matter what the name is, if it makes a standard > utility behave in odd ways, it'll break scripts that > don't expect the odd behavior. That's the essential > objection here. ---- Having "rm -fr ." not follow historical depth-first behavior and, out of sequence, check for a . is "odd behavior". That's the essential objection -- and I'm trying to get back the original behavior -- not ask for some new behavior. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 29 12:08:06 2013 Received: (at 16282) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2013 17:08:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50479 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VxJqQ-0006Ou-4J for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Dec 2013 12:08:06 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:49473) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VxJqN-0006Oi-Pi for 16282@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Dec 2013 12:08:04 -0500 Received: from [192.168.4.12] (Athenae [192.168.4.12]) by Ishtar.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id rBTH7x5C045239; Sun, 29 Dec 2013 09:08:01 -0800 Message-ID: <52C056EF.7060808@tlinx.org> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 09:07:59 -0800 From: Linda Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#16282: revisit; reasoning for not using ENV vars to provide workarounds for POSIX limitations? References: <52BF1A82.5020207@tlinx.org> <52BF2E88.8010700@cs.ucla.edu> <52BF6630.7010601@tlinx.org> In-Reply-To: <52BF6630.7010601@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16282 Cc: 16282@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) Linda Walsh wrote: >> And no matter what the name is, if it makes a standard >> utility behave in odd ways, it'll break scripts that >> don't expect the odd behavior. That's the essential >> objection here. > ---- > Having "rm -fr ." not follow historical depth-first behavior and, > out of sequence, check for a . is "odd behavior". > > That's the essential objection -- and I'm trying to get back > the original behavior -- not ask for some new behavior. -- The other alternative to this (which I'm not adverse to) would be reading a system "rc" (and/or) a per-user "rc" config file that allows or disables various behaviors. Specifically, "rm" had both "-i" and "-I" to give different levels of prompting that could be put in an alias. It also had "-f", "--force" that were supposed to force never prompting, and do what it could -- that extra switch was supposed to override such a check but was hamstrung -- yet it was specifically designed to circumvent the errors it could and be silent about it. Maybe cp -ffr to doubly force it?... Given the addition of "-i" "-I" and "-f" and over the years, it *seems* like this issue has ping-pong back and forth between those who want to disable such functionality and those who want it. Only site wide or per-user configurability of the command via .rc or ENV vars would seem to offer both sides what they want. To claim that ENV vars always cause trouble seems myopic at best and just ignoring a long standing issue inviting custom versions that will allow no trackability of what is in effect. At least with ENV ops, they can be captured in an ENV snapshot or test (less likely so, config files). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 18 01:16:27 2019 Received: (at 16282) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jan 2019 06:16:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35550 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gkNS5-0006uh-7k for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 01:16:25 -0500 Received: from mail-pg1-f179.google.com ([209.85.215.179]:44890) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gkNS1-0006mY-1b; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 01:16:21 -0500 Received: by mail-pg1-f179.google.com with SMTP id t13so5537535pgr.11; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 22:16:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KB33UnwcLqoXCV8f2cSZ4ToLUGeq0QDPUoUMEaX9QSo=; b=ElG67EcfO6IjolsuQ9R5HgKXnwPSld82O0skAxrwioaIO/2RfanMQy+G67llih6yqI L3oYjn/H4cn7/R4rwFwzK6cEWHX44SNnIoJc3XnR6aq9KppA4819WVODm96Ttv5yMRP1 5rgnoSqP1W/eox+ViXSnVzynElLM0wmbmxnn+pdJb9mezcn71dJEGH0MqKvP4Fe0VeVu la1xRzwKVyUXb1z8TJcxBv8nZKN/ohh21bEKaHN3KVQ7CR7JT4cNxdUnQI8RUPR5siHq d/sTzuIY8vYiRMtk6Hn9qNNU4RUGRVAh76+9Cj1Xav6guIocb0ILUDW9X6o1ilMZQdZ1 rRcw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KB33UnwcLqoXCV8f2cSZ4ToLUGeq0QDPUoUMEaX9QSo=; b=JdAMhrHLZ9kmRi+QkFacVHx6kYj72O+oIyUTU2/aA0TVl6R39V1jVkBF2O67EMS63C PEcdZ2i8Bs3jbaSIoJeYSNC5CvFL2jRusf9BGYJ/JDiKLFlHzwXbZ0A4gLMyCZNCmewp ZqZdUfTAjEv/fn7hGemxh81vnC8yjMzHtBw+K4m8oRx2LRxSQNCYU6ntcV2Yibqs0fpG gkOnhqgb3PG7FBJ2E2DH7HvXJEyOQs3SjmuaygOUKpZCrfNZTES/FxMRFeB5O4+4FHzy SuM/p4L4YE3vj/suxqS6lZXTrzoY2QcIPDMp7MXF0BMy+6HJJj/1/frCAfPG7t2SQD0V Ur5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukf/Mf3K3YhDx6SM0x5yRSTAI128djACCwRz2DvRP1RGpR/BBD7j CnYBf1XNTZmiXF9uxroh349LDw2G X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7zfEXehXj5lVXvp2ekEaIe3txtwkGSAx9Q+ACm9Y27Ho+MYKV5IhVVOkZ4VnkXLtcAMLSMIQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:955a:: with SMTP id t26mr16558715pgn.449.1547792174556; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 22:16:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomato.housegordon.com (moose.housegordon.com. [184.68.105.38]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id c13sm7011840pfe.93.2019.01.17.22.16.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 17 Jan 2019 22:16:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#16282: revisit; reasoning for not using ENV vars to provide workarounds for POSIX limitations? To: Linda Walsh , 16282@debbugs.gnu.org References: <52BF1A82.5020207@tlinx.org> <52BF2E88.8010700@cs.ucla.edu> From: Assaf Gordon Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2019 23:16:12 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <52BF2E88.8010700@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16282 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) severity 16282 wishlist tags 16282 wontfix close 16282 stop (triaging old bugs) Hello, On 2013-12-28 1:03 p.m., Paul Eggert wrote: > [...] if it makes a standard > utility behave in odd ways, it'll break scripts that > don't expect the odd behavior. That's the essential > objection here. > > Yes, we've used env vars in the past for this, but we've > come to regret it, and we don't want to make matters worse > in this respect without a compelling justification. Given the above, and with no further comments in 5 years, I'm closing this bug. More details about the reasoning for rejecting new environment variables are summarized here: https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/rejected_requests.html#envvar regards, - assaf From unknown Sun Jun 22 03:49:54 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 12:24:07 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator