From unknown Sun Jun 22 20:57:11 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#16155 <16155@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#16155 <16155@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: electric indent gripes Reply-To: bug#16155 <16155@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2025 03:57:11 +0000 retitle 16155 electric indent gripes reassign 16155 emacs submitter 16155 rms@gnu.org severity 16155 minor thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 15 06:48:06 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2013 11:48:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50840 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsAB4-00079h-14 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:48:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:37118) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsAAz-00079E-Rp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:48:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsAAy-00025F-6N for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:48:01 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:45649) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsAAy-00025B-3h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:48:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38822) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsAAw-0003mq-Oe for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:48:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsAAv-00024l-F7 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:47:58 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:45718) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsAAv-00024h-CN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:47:57 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsAAu-0005lV-5P; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:47:56 -0500 Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:47:56 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.3.50; X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.4 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.4 (-----) In text mode, if the buffer contains ----------------------------------------- foo bar ----------------------------------------- and point is at the end of the line, and I type RET, it indents the following line. I don't ever like having newline indent. It should be a minor mode, and the documentation of `newline' should explain how to easily turn this off. However, in this case with the blank line after `bar', it is even less likely to be desirable to indent the new line like `bar'. In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.18 (mips64el-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.20.1) of 2013-12-14 on chiefs-gnewsense Bzr revision: 115526 tzz@lifelogs.com-20131214180409-n2o5017gxsjvz8as System Description: gNewSense GNU/Linux 3.0 (parkes) Configured using: `configure 'CFLAGS=-g -O0'' Important settings: value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8 locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix default enable-multibyte-characters: t Major mode: Text Minor modes in effect: shell-dirtrack-mode: t gpm-mouse-mode: t tooltip-mode: t electric-indent-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t menu-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t line-number-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t abbrev-mode: t Recent input: C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-p C-p C-p C-@ C-u C-n ESC e c ESC , RET RET ESC \ N o , SPC I t h i n k SPC C-u C-b C-b C-b SPC C-h f n w DEL e w l i n e RET C-e y o u SPC h v e SPC DEL DEL DEL a v e SPC m i s C-a C-k I n d e e d , SPC i t SPC i s n ' t SPC a SPC c o p i e r . SPC SPC C-a ESC f ESC f ESC DEL t h a t C-e H o w e v e r , SPC w h a t ' s SPC r e l e v a n t SPC t o SPC t h i s SPC i s s u e RET i s SPC t h a t SPC c o m p u t e r s SPC c a n SPC c o p y SPC p r o g r a m s . SPC SPC D i f f e r e n t i a t i o n SPC i s n ' t SPC r e a DEL l e v a SPC t DEL DEL n t . RET C-c C-c C-x 1 C-a C-u C-v C-u C-v C-u C-v C-u C-v n d d d d d d d C-x C-f f o o f o . t x t RET f o o SPC b a r RET SPC SPC SPC l o s e RET ESC x b u g SPC ESC DEL r e p o r t SPC e m a c s SPC b u g RET Recent messages: Wrote /home/rms/outgoing/out-36 Sending...done Quit Mark set [2 times] Type "q" in help window to restore its previous buffer. Auto-saving... Sending... Wrote /home/rms/outgoing/out-37 Sending...done (New file) Load-path shadows: /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/lao hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/lao /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/georgian hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/georgian /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/thai hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/thai /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/ethiopic hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/ethiopic /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/japanese hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/japanese /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/cyrillic hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/cyrillic /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/indian hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/indian /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/hebrew hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/hebrew /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/greek hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/greek /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/czech hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/czech /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/slovak hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/slovak /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/tibetan hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/tibetan Features: (shadow emacsbug help-mode misearch multi-isearch epa-mail epa derived epg epg-config shell pcomplete grep compile comint ansi-color ring mailalias qp rmailmm message sendmail format-spec rfc822 mml easymenu mml-sec mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader mail-parse rfc2231 dired t-mouse package rmailedit rmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils time-date paren cus-start cus-load advice help-fns tooltip electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel x-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list newcomment lisp-mode prog-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev minibuffer nadvice loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote make-network-process dbusbind gfilenotify dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 15 08:05:46 2013 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2013 13:05:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50915 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsBOE-0001sb-H7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 08:05:46 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:37886) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsBOB-0001sM-Lw for 16155@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 08:05:44 -0500 Received: from fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.DIT.UMontreal.CA (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id rBFD5dkx005284; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 08:05:40 -0500 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id D1EC9AE358; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 08:05:39 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; Message-ID: References: Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 08:05:39 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:47:56 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4793=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9362 : core <4793> : inlines <324> : streams <1091245> : uri <1624681> X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 Cc: 16155@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) > I don't ever like having newline indent. It should be a minor mode, It is a minor mode. Called electric-indent-mode, and no enabled by default. See NEWS. > and the documentation of `newline' should explain how to easily turn > this off. The docstring does mention the indentation behavior, with a link to electric-indent-mode. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 15 14:42:01 2013 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2013 19:42:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52015 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHZh-0003vx-II for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:42:01 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:51831) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHZf-0003vp-L2 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:42:00 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHZf-0000lI-9V for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:41:59 -0500 Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:41:59 -0500 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 16155 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) merge 16156 16155 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 15 14:50:26 2013 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2013 19:50:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52042 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHhq-0005Hw-5q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:50:26 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:52057) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHho-0005Ho-58 for 16155@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:50:24 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHhn-00022b-MJ; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:50:23 -0500 Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:50:23 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Stefan Monnier In-reply-to: (message from Stefan Monnier on Sun, 15 Dec 2013 08:05:39 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; References: X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 Cc: 16155@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > and the documentation of `newline' should explain how to easily turn > this off. The docstring does mention the indentation behavior, with a link to electric-indent-mode. I see it does -- but I did not notice that part when I looked at it. It doesn't clearly tell people what to do to avoid this. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 15 14:52:48 2013 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2013 19:52:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52049 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHk7-0005Mr-RV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:52:48 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:52131) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHk5-0005Mj-A3 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:52:45 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHk4-0002M3-Vj for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:52:45 -0500 Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:52:44 -0500 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 16155 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) retitle 16155 electric indent gripes From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 15 15:01:52 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2013 20:01:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52062 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHst-0006kV-DO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:01:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53919) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHsq-0006kL-MB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:01:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHsl-0007nv-6V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:01:48 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:37718) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHsl-0007nr-3o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:01:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55607) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHsg-00009f-3K for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:01:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHsa-0007mJ-Pr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:01:38 -0500 Received: from xvm-90.mit.edu ([18.181.2.90]:46306 helo=mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsHsa-0007lJ-MV for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:01:32 -0500 Received: by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) id 923181F386; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:01:31 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org Received: from mail.muc.de (colin.muc.de [193.149.48.1]) by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3390C1F1BC for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:01:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 72965 invoked by uid 8); 15 Dec 2013 20:01:29 -0000 To: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org Path: not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.bug Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 20:01:29 +0000 (UTC) Organization: muc.de e.V. Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: news.muc.de X-Trace: colin.muc.de 1387137689 72963 193.149.48.2 (15 Dec 2013 20:01:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-admin@muc.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 20:01:29 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: tin/1.9.6-20101126 ("Burnside") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/8.4-RELEASE (amd64)) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) Stefan Monnier wrote: > Richard Stallman wrote: >> I don't ever like having newline indent. I agree. `newline' should never indent the new line. `newline-and-indent' should always indent the new line. >> It should be a minor mode, > It is a minor mode. Called electric-indent-mode, and no enabled by default. > See NEWS. electric-indent-mode _is_ enabled by default in the current trunk. I've just updated, built, and tried it. >> and the documentation of `newline' should explain how to easily turn >> this off. > The docstring does mention the indentation behavior, with a link to > electric-indent-mode. What the docstring says is this: A non-nil INTERACTIVE argument means to run the `post-self-insert-hook', which by default will also indent the line (see `electric-indent-mode'). Presumably the invocation of `newline' by pressing the RET key leaves INTERACTIVE set to nil. Nevertheless, the unwanted indentation happened. This is bad documentation, since it describes the internal workings rather than the coherent functionality. As a user of `newline', I shouldn't have to know about `post-self-insert-hook', never mind having to try to figure out which way to set INTERACTIVE. I can't make out what that bit of the doc string means without a considerable investment of intellectual effort. Again, the question: why should `newline' indent when we've got the specific command `newline-and-indent'? I think a good way to resolve the current confusion would be to restrict electric-indent-mode to indenting ONLY the line in which the character is typed, and leaving the indentation of any new line to `newline-and-indent'. > Stefan -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 15 15:38:02 2013 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2013 20:38:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52103 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsIRt-0000Oq-Tq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:38:02 -0500 Received: from smtpo15.poczta.onet.pl ([213.180.142.146]:54916) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsIRr-0000Od-5s for 16155@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:38:00 -0500 Received: from [192.168.17.9] (cj.e-siemianowice.pl [95.215.234.30]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jarekczek@poczta.onet.pl) by smtp.poczta.onet.pl (Onet) with ESMTPSA id 3djHVt1yKQzZCDk3 for <16155@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:37:57 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=poczta.onet.pl; s=2011; t=1387139878; bh=qHXyEFfqHGbvq8mp9SnUM7/3tSzSWVORWoCMzHJN0v0=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=D0KPkTou8yOuCUcpWRQufTYHgQe/pnqfAbOltqAJSVfo9AmTrIPNgCmNEF65gHqib Kp4lL+obXlLEQLmz8F/IYCNvfNSH9R3XHS1sWc2X3xSo2kZL6OqIKeIhl4flCEdoIU 6o5N/+k6RT+/kuYxpeZIjvm+kVw/svoJKXBvErGc= Message-ID: <52AE1325.4080505@poczta.onet.pl> Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:37:57 +0100 From: Jarek Czekalski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 16155@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) We had a lot of reading in the subject, some links in my bug report which was resolved with this additional doc string: 24.3.50; newline indents in shell script mode http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=16015#11 Jarek From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 16 09:19:56 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Dec 2013 14:19:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53256 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsZ1X-0007TZ-Uk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42991) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsZ1W-0007TN-OH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:55 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsZ1M-0004xI-HR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:54 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:53642) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsZ1M-0004xE-DK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44631) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsZ1E-0008KO-9D for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:44 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsZ16-0004uL-78 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:36 -0500 Received: from xvm-90.mit.edu ([18.181.2.90]:46656 helo=mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VsZ16-0004uF-4I for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:28 -0500 Received: by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) id 2DA4820462; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:27 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca (chene.dit.umontreal.ca [132.204.246.20]) by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B791F518 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id rBGEJOgu020400; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:25 -0500 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 67470AE2BE; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:24 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; Message-ID: References: Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:24 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Sun, 15 Dec 2013 20:01:29 +0000 (UTC)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4794=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9362 : core <4794> : inlines <327> : streams <1091721> : uri <1625727> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) >> It is a minor mode. Called electric-indent-mode, and no enabled by default. ^^ now >> See NEWS. > electric-indent-mode _is_ enabled by default in the current trunk. Indeed, as mentioned in NEWS. > Again, the question: why should `newline' indent when we've got the specific > command `newline-and-indent'? Because apparently most users like it. You don't, so turn it off in your ~/.emacs. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 16 12:01:54 2013 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Dec 2013 17:01:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54193 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsbYH-0004zZ-M1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:01:53 -0500 Received: from smtpo11.poczta.onet.pl ([213.180.142.142]:55221) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsbYE-0004zM-ST for 16155@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:01:52 -0500 Received: from [192.168.17.9] (cj.e-siemianowice.pl [95.215.234.30]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jarekczek@poczta.onet.pl) by smtp.poczta.onet.pl (Onet) with ESMTPSA id 3djpg15zhPz9ttbl for <16155@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:01:49 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=poczta.onet.pl; s=2011; t=1387213309; bh=9s52mWsGkV0HSaGy1C8YBS0Gh1DGI3NRP9IOUE+pDig=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=nzCtKMjPQxSyOpsCPv6NK1bhpOFwxvsK46DWujqdoRT7JQc6IXjBagxWAqJ2iyg98 tnpFMNSmpm0aFi1hhPv5O8LUSwub4c8OE934oibl6TfgeJdywBlv7d0eB3qp2J6JLb Jl2H8bUZs/UfKvwtDSUdlXrXHElvjOi6ADdUfK1g= Message-ID: <52AF31F9.7020504@poczta.onet.pl> Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:01:45 +0100 From: Jarek Czekalski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120824 Thunderbird/15.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 16155@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; electric indent gripes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) W dniu 2013-12-16 15:19, Stefan Monnier pisze: >> Again, the question: why should `newline' indent when we've got the specific >> command `newline-and-indent'? > Because apparently most users like it. You don't, so turn it off in > your ~/.emacs. Stefan, please don't make the basic mistake: users (probably) like "pressing RET indents", not "newline command" indents. If you have the data that most users like "newline command" to indent, please show it. It will cut all the discussions. I write it just in case you really meant what you wrote, which is unlikely. About turning it off: it was also asked for. The docs should guide to the place describing how to turn it off. I don't know how to turn it off, but I wait patiently. It must appear on the group sooner or later. Jarek From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 16 13:58:30 2013 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Dec 2013 18:58:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54361 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsdN8-0008Pa-LG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:58:30 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:56358) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VsdN6-0008PQ-73 for 16155@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:58:29 -0500 Received: from fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id rBGIwOeN005619; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:58:25 -0500 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 21612AE2BE; Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:58:24 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Jarek Czekalski Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; electric indent gripes Message-ID: References: <52AF31F9.7020504@poczta.onet.pl> Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:58:24 -0500 In-Reply-To: <52AF31F9.7020504@poczta.onet.pl> (Jarek Czekalski's message of "Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:01:45 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4794=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9362 : core <4794> : inlines <329> : streams <1091805> : uri <1625928> X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 Cc: 16155@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) > About turning it off: it was also asked for. The docs should guide to the > place describing how to turn it off. I don't know how to turn it off, but > I wait patiently. It must appear on the group sooner or later. Remove ?\n from electric-indent-chars. I.e. (setq-default electric-indent-chars nil) -- Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 17 05:50:50 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Dec 2013 10:50:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54996 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VssEk-0004cT-H3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:50:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:39741) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VssEi-0004cJ-OR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:50:49 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VssEc-0001kb-CF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:50:48 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:36480) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VssEc-0001kR-98 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:50:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41351) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VssEW-0000Dw-7a for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:50:42 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VssEL-0001e7-QM for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:50:36 -0500 Received: from xvm-90.mit.edu ([18.181.2.90]:47099 helo=mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VssEL-0001dx-Jy for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:50:25 -0500 Received: by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) id 3382320462; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:50:25 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [208.118.235.10]) by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BDF31EF42 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:50:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VssEJ-0000fE-Ii; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:50:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:50:23 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Stefan Monnier In-reply-to: (message from Stefan Monnier on Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:19:24 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Was a proper poll of users ever conducted? I don't think so. The first pretest would be a good opportunity to do that. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 17 17:40:31 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Dec 2013 22:40:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56183 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3JW-0000Yo-C0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:40:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:56731) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3JT-0000Ye-Jp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:40:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3JK-0001A2-GA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:40:27 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:49834) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3JK-00019y-DJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:40:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58394) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3JC-00058u-9F for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:40:18 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3J4-0000vP-BZ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:40:10 -0500 Received: from xvm-90.mit.edu ([18.181.2.90]:47372 helo=mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3J4-0000tf-7w for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:40:02 -0500 Received: by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) id 44F30207A7; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:40:01 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com (aserp1040.oracle.com [141.146.126.69]) by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 258571F386 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:40:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id rBHMdu3c001285 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:39:56 GMT Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id rBHMds07019010 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:39:55 GMT Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id rBHMdrLa024973; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:39:53 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <749544c4-49e7-462f-b64c-26725cf35a59@default> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 14:39:53 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: rms@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier Subject: RE: bug#16155: 24.3.50; References: < > <> In-Reply-To: <> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) > Was a proper poll of users ever conducted? I don't think so. > The first pretest would be a good opportunity to do that. +1 I just picked up a new development build, where `electric-indent-mode' is enabled by default. FWIW, I'm afraid I'm with Alan and Jarek (and RMS?) on this: I have turned it off. In `emacs-lisp-mode', especially, I want `C-j' to do `newline-and-indent', and I want `RET' to do only `newline'. As for the documentation in NEWS: This is all there is: `electric-indent-mode' is enabled by default. I was looking for something about `newline' or `C-j' or `RET' in programming modes (lisp modes, in particular), so I didn't find this entry right away. I suggest that you (a) explain this a little more and (b) make it easier to find. Mention, for example, that `C-j' and `RET' are, in effect, swapped now from what they have always been. At least that is true as a first approximation - I have no idea what other "interesting" changes this change in default behavior brings about. And I won't bother to find out - I just added this to my init file: (when (fboundp 'electric-indent-mode) (electric-indent-mode -1)) --- It's interesting that a giant brouhaha was made about seeing what changes users might want, to existing defaults, by: (a) checking the features and modes reported automatically in bug reports and (b) initiating a user poll on Emacs Wiki. And yet none of that data (however flakey or incomplete) was considered in deciding to make this change in default behavior. Whyzat? How many users actually reported (measured any way you like) that they wanted the default behavior to change to what you've changed it to? Well, we cannot really count the Emacs Wiki poll, because it was taken after you changed the default! Even so, only 10% (12 people) reported there that they use it - even though it is now the default! http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/FrequentlyEnabledPackages_Emacs244_Survey_Re= sults No, the Emacs Wiki poll is not a great poll. But do tell: Among the bug reports received before you changed the default value, how many users actually had `electric-indent-mode' turned on? Just curious. Anyway, you decided - end of story. Not a big deal - just one more. I've updated my init file to compensate. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 17 18:14:45 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Dec 2013 23:14:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56204 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3qf-0001V4-7Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:14:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36628) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3qd-0001Uw-8i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:14:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3qX-0002tl-W3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:14:43 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:43958) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3qX-0002th-TA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:14:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38301) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3qT-0003I2-2R for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:14:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3qM-0002r1-AA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:14:33 -0500 Received: from xvm-90.mit.edu ([18.181.2.90]:47392 helo=mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt3qM-0002qq-6v for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:14:26 -0500 Received: by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) id 9E010207A7; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:14:25 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org Received: from mail-pb0-f51.google.com (mail-pb0-f51.google.com [209.85.160.51]) by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E9C71EECD for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:14:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pb0-f51.google.com with SMTP id up15so7662330pbc.10 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:14:24 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=SVpG+HQqmqdEBfC9bWtqRyiP+Gg8TSXXQBAiEqmRMHk=; b=HVJ2Km/TrZ8y0hsC1cL6fsJKE/6Mksa++T0zGVRhFmcp0bzr5a3pMKjXIZ0hWanpV7 eK1tkVlPKURiiMUZpBKGxkEQHcSD39/3sEDlqzL0/Z5CJPBHRhVG6lYucvnrq4LpLJ4s OCXn2jWn4puwfx6PYL3M6BazuDKAEPxSAdEPlP2Ssh198anpoQGYrM2OzDTnpRg4SJj4 C3lBnTfgteVyjrj+T6lrZIYGGmIT2ip95y3WKcDQf4lEweWObWs9l7GVA20bIXJL+wgm MgIdQjVVRIjIZebaIEG+Id2gyjXcF8mzGmKzh/ybyVUATdLJrDGF7ttrUfl+dLQtZKHB Ka+g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlkB+7PQx0Tb2KOqV0OMhIzoFz1rIdPAx1LpF//9X7LU89U+DyVgCKYZEUz6HUBsjYeeusk X-Received: by 10.68.34.37 with SMTP id w5mr29894258pbi.159.1387322064842; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:14:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.70.3.161 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:13:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <749544c4-49e7-462f-b64c-26725cf35a59@default> References: <749544c4-49e7-462f-b64c-26725cf35a59@default> From: Josh Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:13:54 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0rINnyKlZ44xudfGlKw1x6g0i_0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, Alan Mackenzie , rms@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > And yet none of that data (however flakey or incomplete) was > considered in deciding to make this change in default behavior. > Whyzat? To be fair, this was debated at some length[0] and presumably decided a couple of months ago, well before that data became available. [0] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-10/msg00407.html From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 17 19:54:38 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Dec 2013 00:54:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56251 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt5PJ-0004Je-Gs for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:54:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:55687) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt5PH-0004JW-3a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:54:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt5P8-0005I4-Er for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:54:34 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:33835) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt5P8-0005I0-Cf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:54:26 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57325) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt5P0-0002pN-PY for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:54:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt5Ot-0005Fl-14 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:54:18 -0500 Received: from xvm-90.mit.edu ([18.181.2.90]:47422 helo=mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vt5Os-0005Ff-Tx for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:54:10 -0500 Received: by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) id 7146F207A7; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:54:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org Received: from userp1040.oracle.com (userp1040.oracle.com [156.151.31.81]) by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A92C20462 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:54:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id rBI0s2Jb000471 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 18 Dec 2013 00:54:03 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id rBI0s1Pu005927 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Dec 2013 00:54:02 GMT Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id rBI0s1GG012407; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 00:54:01 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <13d75185-288f-4b71-bb80-e5af13a7f8c6@default> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:54:00 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Josh Subject: RE: bug#16155: 24.3.50; References: <749544c4-49e7-462f-b64c-26725cf35a59@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, Alan Mackenzie , rms@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) > > And yet none of that data (however flakey or incomplete) was > > considered in deciding to make this change in default behavior. >=20 > To be fair, this was debated at some length[0] and presumably > decided a couple of months ago, well before that data became > available. >=20 > [0] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-10/msg00407.html "To be fair", I already said that this was decided before that poll was taken. That was the main point: it was decided without benefit of any poll or automatically gathered data. If it had been decided after the wiki "poll", my guess is that there would be even fewer than 10% of the users reporting there that they use `electric-indent-mode'. Since this has been turned on by default for the duration of that "poll", one would expect more people to report it being (left) on. (Of course, many users do not use development builds, which works in the other direction.) But it's not too late to solicit user input and take it into account, as Richard pointed out. FWIW, I read (and participated in) the thread you cite. In particular, I mentioned then that there is a use for a simple just-insert-a-newline key binding, regardless of which key that might be. (Some had suggested that there was no need for this.) I said that I do sometimes use only `RET' (now it is `C-j'), to just insert a newline. (Why that use case was not obvious to some people, I don't know.) I disagree with the need for this default key swap, and the possible benefit to Emacs from it. But I do not feel strongly about that at all, as I said in that thread. It's not a big deal for a user to turn the mode off. I feel somewhat more strongly that the process followed is not the best one (insufficient attention to users - and not just emacs-devel readers). And I feel more strongly that the change is not well documented. That is the thing to correct, at this point. That, and trying better wrt the process. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 18 17:16:47 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Dec 2013 22:16:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57805 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPQ6-0001iY-Nv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:16:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42892) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPQ5-0001iR-Sc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:16:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPPw-0004FQ-A8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:16:45 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:43282) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPPw-0004FM-7R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:16:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44542) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPPo-0003Nt-TL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:16:36 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPPf-0004D5-5Z for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:16:28 -0500 Received: from moderators.individual.net ([130.133.4.7]:52285) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPPe-0004Cr-Vj for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:16:19 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1] helo=mail.muc.de) by moderators.individual.net (Exim 4.82) for gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org with esmtp (envelope-from ) id <1VtPPe-0017aS-A3>; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 23:16:18 +0100 Received: (qmail 48046 invoked by uid 8); 18 Dec 2013 22:16:15 -0000 To: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org Path: not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.bug Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; electric indent gripes Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:16:15 +0000 (UTC) Organization: muc.de e.V. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <52AF31F9.7020504@poczta.onet.pl> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.muc.de X-Trace: colin.muc.de 1387404975 47214 193.149.48.2 (18 Dec 2013 22:16:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-admin@muc.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:16:15 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: tin/1.9.6-20101126 ("Burnside") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/8.4-RELEASE (amd64)) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) Stefan, The thread up to here ran as follows: >>> Again, the question: why should `newline' indent when we've got the specific >>> command `newline-and-indent'? >> Because apparently most users like it. You don't, so turn it off in >> your ~/.emacs. > Stefan, please don't make the basic mistake: users (probably) like > "pressing RET indents", not "newline command" indents. Jarek's central point, which you cut in your reply to him, was this: > If you have the data that most users like "newline command" to indent, > please show it. It will cut all the discussions. I write it just in case > you really meant what you wrote, which is unlikely. Would you please now address this point. Thanks! > Jarek -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 18 17:28:47 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Dec 2013 22:28:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57811 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPbf-00022f-0J for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:28:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:45334) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPbZ-00022R-JS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:28:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPbT-00083O-0P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:28:37 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:53072) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPbS-00083K-TS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:28:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47040) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPbM-0001up-I1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:28:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPbG-0007yw-7B for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:28:24 -0500 Received: from four.schnuerpel.eu ([2a01:4f8:120:9382::145]:54116) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtPbG-0007ys-0C for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:28:18 -0500 Received: from mail.muc.de (colin.muc.de [193.149.48.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by moderators.schnuerpel.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9649A83B for ; Wed, 18 Dec 2013 23:28:16 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 49477 invoked by uid 8); 18 Dec 2013 22:28:16 -0000 To: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org Path: not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.bug Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:28:16 +0000 (UTC) Organization: muc.de e.V. Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: news.muc.de X-Trace: colin.muc.de 1387405696 49475 193.149.48.2 (18 Dec 2013 22:28:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-admin@muc.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:28:16 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: tin/1.9.6-20101126 ("Burnside") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/8.4-RELEASE (amd64)) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Again, the question: why should `newline' indent when we've got the specific >> command `newline-and-indent'? > Because apparently most users like it. You don't, so turn it off in > your ~/.emacs. I cannot see how to achieve the result I want by tweaking my .emacs. What I want is this: o - with electric-indent-mode enabled. o - with ?\n a member of electric-indent-chars. o - `newline-and-indent' will indent both the current line and the new line. o - `newline' will indent only the current line Comments? > Stefan -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 08:31:27 2013 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2013 13:31:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58331 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VtdhF-0005sE-Ty for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:31:26 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:59368) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VtdhC-0005s3-2n for 16155@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:31:23 -0500 Received: from fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.DIT.UMontreal.CA (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id rBJDVILi025747; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:31:19 -0500 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 4C139AE6B6; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:31:19 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:31:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:28:16 +0000 (UTC)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4797=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9362 : core <4797> : inlines <336> : streams <1093430> : uri <1629184> X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 Cc: 16155@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) [ How did you end up with gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org in the "To:" field? ] >>> Again, the question: why should `newline' indent when we've got the >>> specific command `newline-and-indent'? >> Because apparently most users like it. You don't, so turn it off in >> your ~/.emacs. > I cannot see how to achieve the result I want by tweaking my .emacs. What > I want is this: > o - with electric-indent-mode enabled. > o - with ?\n a member of electric-indent-chars. > o - `newline-and-indent' will indent both the current line and the new line. > o - `newline' will indent only the current line > Comments? Indeed, I don't think you can get the above behavior by "tweaking" your ~/.emacs. Is the above a new need, or is that a behavior you used to have, and if so how did you get it before? Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 12:15:27 2013 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2013 17:15:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58850 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VthC2-0004Mf-55 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 12:15:26 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:33163) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VthBz-0004MW-9J for 16155@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 12:15:24 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VthBx-0001HJ-PX; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 12:15:21 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; References: X-Spook: emc Etacs MIT-LL Lexis-Nexis Juiliett Class Submarine IRA X-Ran: SC~$s-\*e(Wj#E*~!h0#Y:sm4^ (Stefan Monnier's message of "Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:31:19 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 Cc: Alan Mackenzie , 16155@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) Stefan Monnier wrote: > [ How did you end up with gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org in the "To:" > field? ] It's a little annoying from a list moderator point of view, because it means the messages look like Newsgroup postings, which need to be manually approved. Alan, it would be helpful if you could post to this list in a more "standard" fashion. (Gmane.org is great if you prefer a newsgroup interface.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 13:05:42 2013 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2013 18:05:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58895 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vthyg-0005y6-JR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:05:42 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:17843 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vthyd-0005xu-Tp for 16155@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:05:41 -0500 Received: (qmail 18425 invoked by uid 3782); 19 Dec 2013 18:05:38 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p5492C83B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.146.200.59]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:05:37 +0100 Received: (qmail 5228 invoked by uid 1000); 19 Dec 2013 18:02:51 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 18:02:51 +0000 To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Strange moderator address. [Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50;] Message-ID: <20131219180251.GA5181@acm.acm> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -1.2 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 Cc: 16155@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.2 (-) Hi, Stefan. On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 08:31:19AM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > [ How did you end up with gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org in the "To:" > field? ] I honestly don't know. I merely posted a followup on my ISP's Usenet server. Presumably some NNTP server somewhere along the line has that address registered as the newgroup's moderation address. > Stefan -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 13:12:22 2013 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2013 18:12:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58905 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vti58-0006BQ-4c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:12:22 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:34263) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vti55-0006BF-Bz for 16155@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:12:20 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vti54-00012i-2F; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:12:18 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#16155: Strange moderator address. [Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50;] References: <20131219180251.GA5181@acm.acm> X-Spook: cryptanalysis BROMURE fraud Pine Gap enigma ANZUS ASPIC X-Ran: KFWk[KAIiio] (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Thu, 19 Dec 2013 18:02:51 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 Cc: Stefan Monnier , 16155@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) Alan Mackenzie wrote: > I merely posted a followup on my ISP's Usenet server. Please note that posting bug reports and comments via usenet is *strongly discouraged* (by me), and has been for some time. It doesn't interact well with debbugs.gnu.org. (Yours somehow seems to work, I have no idea how.) This is documented in the Emacs manual, the mailing list description, etc. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 13:19:38 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2013 18:19:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58909 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VtiC9-0006PJ-Db for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:19:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:37661) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VtiC7-0006P7-5k for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:19:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtiC5-0002bA-QO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:19:34 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:39494) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtiC5-0002b5-MJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:19:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39369) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtiC4-0003An-Ft for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:19:33 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtiC3-0002aZ-Dv for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:19:32 -0500 Received: from four.schnuerpel.eu ([2a01:4f8:120:9382::145]:37276) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtiC2-0002aV-WF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:19:31 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [IPv6:2001:4830:134:3::e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by four.schnuerpel.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08D9983B for ; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:19:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtiBz-00027D-Ak; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:19:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:19:27 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: (message from Alan Mackenzie on Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:28:16 +0000 (UTC)) Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] We have not polled the users, so we don't have any real information about what most users think about it. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 14:58:18 2013 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2013 19:58:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58967 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vtjje-0000vC-3g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 14:58:18 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:33819 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VtjjZ-0000uo-LZ for 16155@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 14:58:14 -0500 Received: (qmail 26178 invoked by uid 3782); 19 Dec 2013 19:58:11 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p5492C83B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.146.200.59]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 20:58:10 +0100 Received: (qmail 5997 invoked by uid 1000); 19 Dec 2013 19:55:20 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:55:20 +0000 To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: bug#16155: Strange moderator address. [Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50;] Message-ID: <20131219195520.GB5181@acm.acm> References: <20131219180251.GA5181@acm.acm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -1.2 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 Cc: Stefan Monnier , 16155@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.2 (-) Hi, Glenn. On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 01:12:17PM -0500, Glenn Morris wrote: > Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > I merely posted a followup on my ISP's Usenet server. > Please note that posting bug reports and comments via usenet is > *strongly discouraged* (by me), and has been for some time. It doesn't > interact well with debbugs.gnu.org. As you remark, my NNTP posts don't seem to give debbugs any trouble. Could it be that this is something which isn't just special to me? > (Yours somehow seems to work, I have no idea how.) Perhaps the problem with usenet and debbugs, whatever it was, has been resolved. > This is documented in the Emacs manual, the mailing list description, > etc. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 15:13:45 2013 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2013 20:13:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58978 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vtjyb-0001Me-1F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 15:13:45 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:36773) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VtjyY-0001MU-Jg for 16155@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 15:13:42 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VtjyX-00036F-9D; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 15:13:41 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#16155: Strange moderator address. [Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50;] References: <20131219180251.GA5181@acm.acm> <20131219195520.GB5181@acm.acm> X-Spook: Juiliett Class Submarine lynch TWA eavesdropping 22nd SAS X-Ran: 6>l~[&DHe&4a]!A^z@zi;DZT#e1%LajD=N$n(|!$,92+BK-qSbXtdCEg0m>!dl< (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:55:20 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 Cc: Stefan Monnier , 16155@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Perhaps the problem with usenet and debbugs, whatever it was, has been > resolved. I assure you it hasn't. It cannot be fixed. I have spent quite some time on this, so forgive me if I can't even be bothered to explain it any more. http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=936 Your ISP seems to inject postings in some wacky way that happens to work. As I said, they require extra moderation if nothing else. (And don't be surprised if the news/mail gateway breaks altogether at some point, as has often happened in the past.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 15:49:18 2013 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2013 20:49:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59024 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VtkX0-0002OE-Cp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 15:49:18 -0500 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:12343 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VtkWx-0002O4-UN for 16155@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 15:49:16 -0500 Received: (qmail 28944 invoked by uid 3782); 19 Dec 2013 20:49:14 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p5492C83B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.146.200.59]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:49:12 +0100 Received: (qmail 6182 invoked by uid 1000); 19 Dec 2013 20:46:27 -0000 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 20:46:27 +0000 To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: bug#16155: Strange moderator address. [Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50;] Message-ID: <20131219204627.GC5181@acm.acm> References: <20131219180251.GA5181@acm.acm> <20131219195520.GB5181@acm.acm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -1.2 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 Cc: Stefan Monnier , 16155@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.2 (-) Hi, Glenn. On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 03:13:41PM -0500, Glenn Morris wrote: > Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > Perhaps the problem with usenet and debbugs, whatever it was, has been > > resolved. > I assure you it hasn't. It cannot be fixed. I have spent quite some time > on this, so forgive me if I can't even be bothered to explain it any > more. OK. > http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=936 > Your ISP seems to inject postings in some wacky way that happens to work. > As I said, they require extra moderation if nothing else. I usually approve any posts I make to gnu.emacs.bugs myself. > (And don't be surprised if the news/mail gateway breaks altogether > at some point, as has often happened in the past.) That won't surprise me at all. :-( -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 21 00:02:31 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2013 05:02:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60687 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VuEhr-0005W1-4o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:02:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:33509) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VuEho-0005Vq-Cm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:02:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VuEhi-0001Nk-ND for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:02:27 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:34743) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VuEhi-0001NX-JT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:02:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35187) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VuEhd-00052d-Nr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:02:22 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VuEhY-0001K0-Sy for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:02:17 -0500 Received: from moderators.individual.net ([130.133.4.7]:44042) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VuEhY-0001Jv-Md for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:02:12 -0500 Received: from mail-wi0-f182.google.com ([209.85.212.182]) by moderators.individual.net (Exim 4.82) for gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org with esmtp (envelope-from ) id <1VuEhY-0047oq-1V>; Sat, 21 Dec 2013 06:02:12 +0100 Received: by mail-wi0-f182.google.com with SMTP id en1so4524506wid.9 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:02:08 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=uZP5vfAuyFp1zvWCG8JptH6cRCnH/hXg05/6NC4Teh4=; b=NyVMX2WfoUrzdYj+8mnU3POhoiCw5WgtTJMQ6/09uUZZCBv+PXBXrgnCVQs5d9JMl2 /ReB/4uVxge0aYXSdcN5js7i6jRcB74J3jxlpC4bsFkFyJsvc2Dd3ai14rqQSCvxI1m9 Gb6C/0to22yBmuMHO5P18mnAyCQHpA2D4QlUVuet4dKCw0CYG1qHY7QrssO408jL86TS qS9rWpO6iYeb/9EgLJ9F1Al9I/BXTE2/XC3CovT4Z3UnNX3vcjd68B3Agn4iEfWX3dFy swnlHJVNCVRxK7uONRry6oMg4sTyUUFOyxij4HdBR+A9bqASFJJ0Rk8mOQHcxLJM9PXF Y8Vw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkDNEhIjARXz0LLfO1gmIUZ+ms1lu9//Z8YNZqzWt0qwJRVdwfgGF4YCsBxDuCkTyihAj9R X-Received: by 10.194.21.225 with SMTP id y1mr1008872wje.60.1387602128708; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:02:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.24.7 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:01:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <13d75185-288f-4b71-bb80-e5af13a7f8c6@default> References: <749544c4-49e7-462f-b64c-26725cf35a59@default> <13d75185-288f-4b71-bb80-e5af13a7f8c6@default> From: Josh Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:01:38 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: PHCBKsOK1OmAvWV1TGcWQgUjS48 Message-ID: Subject: RE: bug#16155: 24.3.50; To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, Alan Mackenzie , rms@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) On Dec 17, 2013 4:54 PM, "Drew Adams" wrote: > > > > And yet none of that data (however flakey or incomplete) was > > > considered in deciding to make this change in default behavior. > > > > To be fair, this was debated at some length[0] and presumably > > decided a couple of months ago, well before that data became > > available. > > > > [0] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-10/msg00407.html > > "To be fair", I already said that this was decided before > that poll was taken. That was the main point: it was decided > without benefit of any poll or automatically gathered data. Ah, I incorrectly concluded from the passage I quoted that you believed that the decision had been made after the data had been collected. > I feel somewhat more strongly that the process followed is > not the best one (insufficient attention to users - and not > just emacs-devel readers). Decisions that are contrary to the majority opinion, whether it be of contributors or users or both, don't bother me much when they're transparent and driven by ethical, legal, or other considerations that demand a particular course of action, for example Richard's decision to stick with Bazaar by virtue of its status as a GNU project. Often, though, there is no such transparency and no overriding considerations are stated, even upon request, and to me this unwillingness to engage substantively with others during the process of making such decisions suggests that our involvement is unwelcome. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 22 22:08:06 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Dec 2013 03:08:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35126 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VuvsE-00041z-9e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:08:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:39595) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VuvsC-00041q-9q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:08:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vuvs2-0002Uj-2j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:08:03 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:43702) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vuvs1-0002Uf-W4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:07:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41310) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vuvrt-0007UJ-O5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:07:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vuvrj-0002Ts-Tr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:07:45 -0500 Received: from xvm-90.mit.edu ([18.181.2.90]:50695 helo=mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vuvrj-0002To-QJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:07:35 -0500 Received: by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) id 593821EE66; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:07:35 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (pruche.dit.umontreal.ca [132.204.246.22]) by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292F31EE63 for ; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:07:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id rBN37QjA010608; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:07:27 -0500 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id AF7C7AE25E; Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:07:26 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Josh Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; Message-ID: References: <749544c4-49e7-462f-b64c-26725cf35a59@default> <13d75185-288f-4b71-bb80-e5af13a7f8c6@default> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:07:26 -0500 In-Reply-To: (josh@foxtail.org's message of "Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:01:38 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4800=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9362 : core <4800> : inlines <347> : streams <1095452> : uri <1632556> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, Alan Mackenzie , rms@gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) If someone wants to setup a poll, please do so. My current decision is largely based on the fact that most/all major modes providing some kind of "electric indent" behavior have traditionally enabled it by default, and very few users have complained about it, even when it was difficult to disable. Also, AFAIK many(most?) non-Emacs programming editors have a similar feature enabled by default. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 23 22:26:56 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2013 03:26:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37254 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VvIe0-0001oD-8G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:26:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42010) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VvIdx-0001nz-Hj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:26:53 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvIdw-000691-EA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:26:53 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:49484) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvIdw-00068v-Au for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:26:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43705) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvIdv-0005eq-EZ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:26:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvIdu-00067s-LC for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:26:51 -0500 Received: from four.schnuerpel.eu ([2a01:4f8:120:9382::145]:45879) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvIdu-00067Y-F5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:26:50 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [IPv6:2001:4830:134:3::e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by four.schnuerpel.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5EFD6803 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 04:26:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvIdq-0006lQ-E2; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:26:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:26:46 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman To: Stefan Monnier In-reply-to: (message from Stefan Monnier on Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:07:26 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; References: <749544c4-49e7-462f-b64c-26725cf35a59@default> <13d75185-288f-4b71-bb80-e5af13a7f8c6@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.6 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, josh@foxtail.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: rms@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.6 (-----) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] My current decision is largely based on the fact that most/all major modes providing some kind of "electric indent" behavior have traditionally enabled it by default, and very few users have complained about it, even when it was difficult to disable. Are those programming modes? Maybe you're right for programming modes, but you made the change for Text modes too. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 23 23:17:28 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2013 04:17:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37334 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VvJQu-0003Mx-4f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:17:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:58584) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VvJQs-0003Mp-6P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:17:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvJQi-0008Um-IH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:17:25 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:55604) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvJQi-0008UX-Es for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:17:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60169) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvJQY-0006V3-TY for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:17:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvJQP-0008H4-9e for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:17:06 -0500 Received: from four.schnuerpel.eu ([2a01:4f8:120:9382::145]:36405) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvJQP-0008Gi-2p for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:16:57 -0500 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (pruche.dit.umontreal.ca [132.204.246.22]) by moderators.schnuerpel.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C70803 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 05:16:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id rBO4Gm7C022109; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:16:49 -0500 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 5C3F5AE21D; Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:16:48 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; Message-ID: References: <749544c4-49e7-462f-b64c-26725cf35a59@default> <13d75185-288f-4b71-bb80-e5af13a7f8c6@default> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:16:48 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:26:46 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4801=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9362 : core <4801> : inlines <355> : streams <1096058> : uri <1633440> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, josh@foxtail.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) > Are those programming modes? Maybe you're right for programming modes, > but you made the change for Text modes too. I'm not sure if/why there should be a difference. Maybe the behavior needs to be adjusted for text-mode (i.e. for the case where indent-line-function is `indent-relative'), but I don't think it applies to all text modes (e.g. latex-mode, nxml-mode, ...). Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 24 18:50:05 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2013 23:50:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39916 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vvbjh-0003C8-2c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 18:50:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46949) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vvbjc-0003Bb-Ja for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 18:50:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvbjS-000581-Rf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 18:50:00 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:55621) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvbjS-00057w-OS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 18:49:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48659) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvbjL-0006ph-3F for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 18:49:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvbjD-00057C-Ht for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 18:49:43 -0500 Received: from xvm-90.mit.edu ([18.181.2.90]:51806 helo=mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvbjD-000577-E2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 18:49:35 -0500 Received: by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) id 7CA4D1EE6A; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 18:49:34 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org Received: from mail.muc.de (colin.muc.de [193.149.48.1]) by mod-relay.xvm.mit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A16F1EDF7 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2013 18:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 37943 invoked by uid 3782); 24 Dec 2013 23:49:32 -0000 Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 00:49:32 +0100 (CET) From: Alan Mackenzie To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <749544c4-49e7-462f-b64c-26725cf35a59@default> <13d75185-288f-4b71-bb80-e5af13a7f8c6@default> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, josh@foxtail.org, Richard Stallman , drew.adams@oracle.com, acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) On Mon, 23 Dec 2013, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Are those programming modes? Maybe you're right for programming modes, >> but you made the change for Text modes too. > I'm not sure if/why there should be a difference. Maybe the behavior > needs to be adjusted for text-mode (i.e. for the case where > indent-line-function is `indent-relative'), but I don't think it applies > to all text modes (e.g. latex-mode, nxml-mode, ...). There is a difference. I think this change (which to be explicit, is the swapping of the actions of the key bindings RET and C-j) should be made for programming modes only right now. Or possibly with certain specific other modes which are "like" programming modes. But in text-mode, RET should not indent and C-j should (regardless of what a user may have installed on indent-line-function). If there is demand for this swap in other modes, we can always add it later. > Stefan -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 25 11:55:00 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Dec 2013 16:55:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41568 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VvrjX-0004Ym-Uq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:55:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:38480) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VvrjU-0004YW-GN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:54:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvrjK-0002L0-7o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:54:56 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:60096) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvrjK-0002Kw-5Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:54:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40184) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VvrjC-0003An-3Z for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:54:46 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vvrj2-0002Io-RR for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:54:37 -0500 Received: from moderators.individual.net ([130.133.4.7]:43040) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vvrj2-0002IE-Lr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:54:28 -0500 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]) by moderators.individual.net (Exim 4.82) for gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org with esmtp (envelope-from ) id <1Vvrj1-001Y85-Oo>; Wed, 25 Dec 2013 17:54:28 +0100 Received: from fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id rBPGs7K8006704; Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:54:12 -0500 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 8C322AE0E9; Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:54:04 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50; Message-ID: References: <749544c4-49e7-462f-b64c-26725cf35a59@default> <13d75185-288f-4b71-bb80-e5af13a7f8c6@default> Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:54:04 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 25 Dec 2013 00:49:32 +0100 (CET)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4802=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9362 : core <4802> : inlines <357> : streams <1096870> : uri <1634798> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, josh@foxtail.org, Richard Stallman , drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) >>> Are those programming modes? Maybe you're right for programming modes, >>> but you made the change for Text modes too. >> I'm not sure if/why there should be a difference. Maybe the behavior >> needs to be adjusted for text-mode (i.e. for the case where >> indent-line-function is `indent-relative'), but I don't think it applies >> to all text modes (e.g. latex-mode, nxml-mode, ...). > There is a difference. Care to explain which? Oh wait, better yet: first fix your bug (i.e. that cc-mode ignores electric-indent-mode), and then come back and "explain which". Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 05 08:51:30 2022 Received: (at 16155) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2022 12:51:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44717 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nmax8-0003M7-3c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2022 08:51:30 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:53408) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nmax6-0003Lm-AJ; Thu, 05 May 2022 08:51:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ECOBVNyXxiqG68/8AdQvHEDvcIrnBm1HJeJ3Ca3MBN8=; b=A3oWwAbNcxs4I6n1ZTKkdehmOl 8/jafVtYhzwyGqL37f1wpsDkHw0RBCYzh9a0ZVVFNqGB4aZdX8VpQIy8xnpsQGn7mI9rgXvNq6s/9 3CYnGF4laKtjmwDZI/uSxh4GR4kRAXm88RphH6KyPhlyXUX+bQJTeimvgpYEaX968VNQ=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nmawx-0001wg-9d; Thu, 05 May 2022 14:51:21 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#16156: electric indent gripes References: X-Now-Playing: Kiko Dinucci's _Rastilho_: "Foi Batendo o =?utf-8?Q?P=C3=A9?= Na Terra" Date: Thu, 05 May 2022 14:51:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:47:56 -0500") Message-ID: <874k24qh15.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Richard Stallman writes: > In text mode, if the buffer contains > > foo > > bar > > > > and point is at the end of the line, and I type RET, [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 16155 Cc: 16156@debbugs.gnu.org, 16155@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Richard Stallman writes: > In text mode, if the buffer contains > ----------------------------------------- > foo > > bar > > ----------------------------------------- > > and point is at the end of the line, and I type RET, > it indents the following line. > > I don't ever like having newline indent. It should be a minor mode, > and the documentation of `newline' should explain how to easily turn > this off. It is a minor mode, and the doc string does explain this (at least now it does). --- It is bound to RET. (newline &optional ARG INTERACTIVE) Insert a newline, and move to left margin of the new line. With prefix argument ARG, insert that many newlines. If =E2=80=98electric-indent-mode=E2=80=99 is enabled, this indents the fina= l new line that it adds, and reindents the preceding line. To just insert a newline, use M-x electric-indent-just-newline. --- So I don't think there's anything we want to change here, and I'm closing this bug report. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 05 08:51:33 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2022 12:51:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44720 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nmaxB-0003MU-GC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2022 08:51:33 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:53422) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nmaxA-0003Lt-3R for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2022 08:51:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=auGeDFI3gmFH6pmIL0Wh4QH9U9TZq61nA1wsDWi4IPA=; b=NQdr0hgcBQDlHtBh5cte7+QqFd eiEcFRmBsTos67PWOvxjhMj4O/HEwLaXHE+lTlvTCr+jkNc2XNGvJ6xVsuZDDc6FSj40S81irfF1w sU6f+BQZxyFBrHAJUpeu8Avbi13AgRjNTsDuQu1pMyuq53J7kGhh0QGaRVCTO/Zd66+M=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nmax2-0001wn-Er for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 05 May 2022 14:51:26 +0200 Date: Thu, 05 May 2022 14:51:24 +0200 Message-Id: <8735hoqh0z.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #16156 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 16156 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 16156 quit From unknown Sun Jun 22 20:57:11 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2022 11:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator