From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Leo Liu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: rudalics@gmx.at, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 14:36:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: martin rudalics X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-Xcc: martin rudalics Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.138608133226483 (code B ref -1); Tue, 03 Dec 2013 14:36:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Dec 2013 14:35:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55702 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vnr4U-0006t2-Lr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:35:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:41058) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vnr4K-0006sf-7C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:35:21 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vnr46-0003tL-AC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:35:14 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,FREEMAIL_FROM, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:59245) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vnr46-0003sB-6u for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:35:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42714) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vnr3x-0007u3-My for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:35:06 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vnr3p-0003cX-8j for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:34:57 -0500 Received: from mail-pd0-x22b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22b]:48679) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vnr3o-0003bn-Ow for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:34:48 -0500 Received: by mail-pd0-f171.google.com with SMTP id z10so20173049pdj.30 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 06:34:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=woivPQpHCgPKbkmFNhMUj5i5Xe1M5zaCaSsyMHOG7BI=; b=LAZU3mW+L301Ci4IpafUZW2fDw5z0yYQjHWX4Hi14o2QjMR9ny9B+BFhdbhbMcEdbU NCQNoR+Ljz5xb9hccxYgTc9g7JsuMESk1zpyGzf3ApZHKdOpvRq/3v/yHF6uKrytXgHv VNuhg+ztnd5cyN+ZHpJikQY88IqD3oNWN5qwHHGIG6aabv9YIIFxr3K6CS63lPLjOBl7 sOIErAVtT4gaCzP1D76I5CIl1J2TL+lj5M1qLhqqE3XMtUWNavEtN/oS0ZhgLLYvDWRf 70eVwkye7rzi0YZp8GM0Z48KBIvEWLdm/a5GHoltCd+YTGAMxiTehxVaUv0gMt+NncYl j+7A== X-Received: by 10.68.139.100 with SMTP id qx4mr11168180pbb.144.1386081284715; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 06:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([123.119.93.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id jk16sm20333912pbb.34.2013.12.03.06.34.42 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Dec 2013 06:34:44 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Liu Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 22:34:36 +0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) with-help-window has been changed to use with-temp-buffer-window. temp-buffer-window-show has special treatment for temp-buffer-resize-mode but not temp-buffer-browse-mode (in GNU ELPA). There seems to be a significant overlap between with-temp-buffer-window and with-output-to-temp-buffer. I wonder if there is a better design of with-temp-buffer-window that re-use/blend with with-output-to-temp-buffer. I also find the similar hooks (setup/show hooks) between these macros confusing. Maybe what need isn't a macro close to with-output-to-temp-buffer but one (e.g with-temp-window) close to with-temp-buffer. Thank you for considering these points, Leo From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:02:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.138944887211108 (code B ref 16038); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:02:03 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jan 2014 14:01:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46297 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1z7f-0002t5-Pt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:01:12 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]:49921) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1z7b-0002sp-NH for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:01:08 -0500 Received: from [62.47.39.200] ([62.47.39.200]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LtmK9-1VKuc32ckv-0119Kq for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:01:06 +0100 Message-ID: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:01:03 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:CoZlGCuUyQ0brBwohqPoNMLVgxUqhqpI4Es2P3w1eVZ3SH1YrYe RspUPYYP/cG5Y4VXaJgtjYOrr4MeyjXYv4oNXiarq1+JXGKclNPkS5k+m/E4jph5pXSYqrV uVF8h01jmURKqkGXnNiCTYH8h8bgHRVlGQ6wjdcvO9qDwkYnAIXL5K0yiCnMx3ZAysqkPtu ONL7egXNJlGJ5JtPMk3OA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) > with-help-window has been changed to use with-temp-buffer-window. > temp-buffer-window-show has special treatment for > temp-buffer-resize-mode but not temp-buffer-browse-mode (in GNU ELPA). > > There seems to be a significant overlap between with-temp-buffer-window > and with-output-to-temp-buffer. I wonder if there is a better design of > with-temp-buffer-window that re-use/blend with > with-output-to-temp-buffer. I also find the similar hooks (setup/show > hooks) between these macros confusing. `with-help-window' does some things differently which I could not put into `with-output-to-temp-buffer' due to compatibility issues. Can't you put `temp-buffer-browse-mode' on `temp-buffer-window-show-hook'? > Maybe what need isn't a macro close to with-output-to-temp-buffer but > one (e.g with-temp-window) close to with-temp-buffer. The idea of `with-temp-buffer' is to create a temporary buffer where you evaluate things and _kill_ that buffer immediately afterwards. The idea of `with-temp-buffer-window' is to show the buffer and keep it around at least until you quit the window. martin From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Leo Liu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:33:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.138945073919062 (code B ref 16038); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 14:33:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jan 2014 14:32:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46380 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1zbm-0004xN-Ig for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:32:18 -0500 Received: from mail-pd0-f173.google.com ([209.85.192.173]:61635) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W1zbg-0004x9-19 for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:32:13 -0500 Received: by mail-pd0-f173.google.com with SMTP id p10so5711092pdj.32 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 06:32:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=n5FwVc7cvLvkPDYOaqirX9eK/yqs6O3egJGYtlppyNk=; b=pxyTrW37+bLFRGFX/rxco+FuNBe7I6xJnncnVKFC61QV8ORmkAE9ZuEcxfde8oSJgc wS5XiwGpjmKeKken0a3JsL6R2oUn9v2ki9MlUoQp8mY4rOKYmgU1+JmrISSpbtoMOoDY R3uMJJ5XG2gvxLM0E5FbiNaEjZezPfyWR3IU3+ABzzSeDSkR5EO/47gVvVqDSNxJXsRl 4fevT+IZKREUr7wkdAL7LcIW9kfduj/4EvBVFMXKlM1Sbqf5mIhQG+0+gaoZTeMrDWJS 9wLhgd+enrf3O94cksMfAKv75Tvm1j66DG4dQ+tnOxI75LhBi34cc8mQXTVJvZbsKAjg d+Lg== X-Received: by 10.68.183.164 with SMTP id en4mr96209pbc.169.1389450730835; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 06:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from Zeuss-MacBook.local ([123.119.85.96]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id bz4sm25083266pbb.12.2014.01.11.06.32.08 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 06:32:10 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Liu References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAElBMVEUAAAAAAP+LRRP0pGC+ vr7///+7mT1iAAAAAWJLR0QAiAUdSAAAAAlwSFlzAAALEwAACxMBAJqcGAAAAAd0SU1FB9cBBwMO DhglKe4AAAEsSURBVCjPbZNBboQwDEV/Cd4X9QJRThApmn0XYW+Jyf2v0m+HhqDBgiAe9rcTG7QH w/1Vn2Ar8gBb/ocywSN3qK9T3z4eFDB4eApocBpeBs1RSykoJd8gQcm8pGmHXFso3ajnmsqV0TnY DQkOfXUfN5NwaI7AWTVOyEhcu1aHmdWItHddUVUcUgUBCkitu8V6ditHVOVdqzl2EQ1ZVGTbdK0V 7cqn8vWzoU5Q/bF9Y/Y0cRU1xwkys5dJ+Dt6pBDWifcNQml8Gh2JVmPSoQzo7en0grswkxrUGYJ7 0hSxxAGr7ZMwYcHIzprpi7TENEE1xtiYxixRlCfPBsUUrwHD7uGIwATrbnODJcVrPpVn3hxiGloe m/S+z3CtuzUSMo83N4DPH+F0evwR3P4A2k+75838OKQAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:32:03 +0800 In-Reply-To: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:01:03 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (OS X 10.9.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) On 2014-01-11 22:01 +0800, martin rudalics wrote: [snipped 10 lines] > `with-help-window' does some things differently which I could not put > into `with-output-to-temp-buffer' due to compatibility issues. Can't > you put `temp-buffer-browse-mode' on `temp-buffer-window-show-hook'? Thanks, Martin, for your response. with-output-to-temp-buffer usually are used to show useful text. with-temp-buffer-window is sometimes used to show temporary text such as used by dired to show a list of marked files. Certainly I can put a hook temp-buffer-window-show-hook but then I also need to opt out those temporary cases. And it seems temp-buffer-resize-mode is now unnecessarily coupled with the window.el code, i.e. if we were to move temp-buffer-resize-mode to a standalone package it won't work without help from window.el. The more interesting question is is it possible to merge these two macros? For example, will it work if we can re-design the first argument of with-output-to-temp-buffer to accept a list (BUFFER-OR-NAME ACTION QUIT-FUNCTION) or an atom BUFFER-OR-NAME? Leo From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:42:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.138945489727159 (code B ref 16038); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 15:42:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jan 2014 15:41:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46957 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W20gq-00073y-7G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:41:36 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:57080) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W20gm-00073n-5g for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 10:41:33 -0500 Received: from [62.47.39.200] ([62.47.39.200]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LezI3-1VauX72XLr-00qn9T for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:41:30 +0100 Message-ID: <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:41:27 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:RucILad5Dx25zGOBbWHsDwdwlp+0CM0usuldjW+BU0pyCt7h2Ir twj3ukSNfipZLzknvUg2d7KPTwncyNuC7sKD9OenJWvdywlx0uq+q7H6RzB3xpQk/PIpAvq M9S18Z6RYq3FmLKz56v+rRGDB0EkJkQsgzuv1z5kCX8ReFothG4JuKMNkfDt+4jmBWryxO/ sRyIKzI5DRrCt80a+urXQ== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) > with-output-to-temp-buffer usually are used to show useful text. > with-temp-buffer-window is sometimes used to show temporary text such as > used by dired to show a list of marked files. IIRC my primary purpose writing `with-temp-buffer-window' was to get `with-help-window' right and this does not necessarily show temporary text. > Certainly I can put a hook > temp-buffer-window-show-hook but then I also need to opt out those > temporary cases. You would have had to do this anyway: Earlier there was only `with-output-to-temp-buffer' and so the marked files of dired would have been shown with `with-output-to-temp-buffer' instead. I suppose we use `with-temp-buffer-window' now because this allows us to "quit" the window easier. > And it seems temp-buffer-resize-mode is now > unnecessarily coupled with the window.el code, i.e. if we were to move > temp-buffer-resize-mode to a standalone package it won't work without > help from window.el. `temp-buffer-resize-mode' which uses `resize-temp-buffer-window' is still in help.el although it doesn't really belong there. And `resize-temp-buffer-window' calls `fit-window-to-buffer' which is inherently tied to the window code. So the core of `temp-buffer-resize-mode' was with the window resizing code ever since. > The more interesting question is is it possible to merge these two > macros? For example, will it work if we can re-design the first argument > of with-output-to-temp-buffer to accept a list (BUFFER-OR-NAME ACTION > QUIT-FUNCTION) or an atom BUFFER-OR-NAME? I'd rather get rid of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' ;-) If you look into our mail archives, you should find a couple of complaints about `with-output-to-temp-buffer' putting the buffer in `help-mode' (via `temp-buffer-setup-hook') and the like. I tried to avoid these when I wrote `with-temp-buffer-window'. Assume two applications A and B: A expects `with-output-to-temp-buffer' to put the buffer in `help-mode'. B wants to avoid that the buffer is put in `help-mode'. I can offer B to use `with-temp-buffer-window' instead while A can continue to work as usual. Eventually I'd like A to use `with-temp-buffer-window' too and put the buffer in `help-mode' itself. But there were too many `with-output-to-temp-buffer' calls in the code base and I was not able to look into them. martin From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Leo Liu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:32:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.138945791832529 (code B ref 16038); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:32:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jan 2014 16:31:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46975 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W21TZ-0008Sa-Cl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 11:31:57 -0500 Received: from mail-pb0-f47.google.com ([209.85.160.47]:34403) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W21TX-0008SP-2W for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 11:31:55 -0500 Received: by mail-pb0-f47.google.com with SMTP id um1so5619342pbc.6 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:31:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=IQSYzGWKB2Y9cnWCfGUU9ZWivplPECINbO8IGHL/CfQ=; b=bfderG/KId8sEiKCmmMivEnXSuZLt1SDR34WkAqqNvz1lQ3fYm4PR0HBXG+daPzzJJ P41UQy7zVNh7R2XgLX9CcxKJ5ZcDBDMdcmS0zcfxsMcg4awidtKkanxNuPjR1vyp7dKq 2806+SaV0pB71lOYjKBt8obUSzxlJr6856yc2lQo9CmfNW4SYV9tuRd+2ZuhUKQ0VUxQ KEuLep+aM7qwp7vy/zRQfWvBCsWeeVxIvME3xpHXkQjPsKcNTTDfs022cIm0M7t8UCo2 dbE+3Y63WI8LDhvnlLnQDqc25h3UPuiOvMP76SHv/hFOM3jaE9V/civML6OQrJ/Jj9fZ vRkA== X-Received: by 10.66.11.202 with SMTP id s10mr19518012pab.86.1389457914114; Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from Zeuss-MacBook.local ([221.220.233.253]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id by1sm25677478pbd.25.2014.01.11.08.31.52 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:31:53 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Liu References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoAgMAAADxkFD+AAAADFBMVEUvT09qWs3/pQD///+J kUVcAAAAAWJLR0QAiAUdSAAAAAlwSFlzAAALEwAACxMBAJqcGAAAAAd0SU1FB9cBBwMLOd3veKQA AACuSURBVBjTldE9CgIxEAXgB+lEyFUC2wo5ikdZ8DSypxhMY7H9VuIVwlqkGRgnm59VsHGafIQ3 CZlAtmKIRaHETgYa12lqvEsPYKf8wXHsPGfqPaUM0g9aJPKFXkmNQmSDqwzz4Fpgpz+6WAPY2z5o uPJJpu0uypcl4nyCibMLQ8lCiVjayLoQvw5LsVKQuHPRR958HZbOcVsKeepcLxpByjycGvnKmY+c MBvrtyjfe0vmuLvdq/kAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 00:31:48 +0800 In-Reply-To: <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Sat, 11 Jan 2014 16:41:27 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (OS X 10.9.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 2014-01-11 23:41 +0800, martin rudalics wrote: > I'd rather get rid of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' ;-) Yes, please make one of them obsolete. > If you look into our mail archives, you should find a couple of > complaints about `with-output-to-temp-buffer' putting the buffer in > `help-mode' (via `temp-buffer-setup-hook') and the like. I tried to > avoid these when I wrote `with-temp-buffer-window'. > > Assume two applications A and B: A expects `with-output-to-temp-buffer' > to put the buffer in `help-mode'. B wants to avoid that the buffer is > put in `help-mode'. I can offer B to use `with-temp-buffer-window' > instead while A can continue to work as usual. Eventually I'd like A to > use `with-temp-buffer-window' too and put the buffer in `help-mode' > itself. But there were too many `with-output-to-temp-buffer' calls in > the code base and I was not able to look into them. Indeed it seems with-temp-buffer-window is more powerful. Please take steps to deprecate the other macro. It is this that looks rather ugly: 1) temp-buffer-setup-hook, temp-buffer-show-hook, 2) temp-buffer-window-setup-hook, temp-buffer-window-show-hook Leo From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 09:54:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.138952042116654 (code B ref 16038); Sun, 12 Jan 2014 09:54:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jan 2014 09:53:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47372 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W2Hjg-0004KY-0R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 04:53:40 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:55940) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W2Hjc-0004KP-MD for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 04:53:38 -0500 Received: from [62.47.40.118] ([62.47.40.118]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M1W5x-1VE2h41S1Z-00tTMb for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:53:35 +0100 Message-ID: <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:53:30 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:sF9iwfTBUAXCEqUTmy94UMSQypJt8bxVxauI6yy64LDAPYOOZI/ T68XMssG7tEfiHdDh0El3qqzApKRpBRJGz2DO/cABlSGZ1vl0cr/Ri3lnItOC5QvZFXyPwu oM6qpcf0TcZnGLPYT7d+1FEBhDteqWis+n4H3PUYcHSwb9dfLXIQ5cyY86Br1YqYkT6Q2F1 y0fCA+zMT3Whqc3qi5b0Q== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) > It is this that looks rather ugly: > > 1) temp-buffer-setup-hook, temp-buffer-show-hook, > 2) temp-buffer-window-setup-hook, temp-buffer-window-show-hook I know. But this was predated by ;; This makes `with-output-to-temp-buffer' buffers use `help-mode'. (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) and nobody suggested how to cleanly disentangle these. martin From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Leo Liu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:24:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Monnier Cc: martin rudalics , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.138965900727643 (code B ref 16038); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:24:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Jan 2014 00:23:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49519 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W2rmw-0007Bn-SH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:23:27 -0500 Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com ([209.85.160.44]:41073) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W2rmu-0007Bc-CI for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 19:23:24 -0500 Received: by mail-pb0-f44.google.com with SMTP id rr13so1293898pbb.17 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:23:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=AIuXZWGDkN47cqM46VwZ1sGzCsQe7/1KuIAq81ADayk=; b=TRgzYcjk0YrDHtfKYIH9yZM+X/N5gwcTkAKjkMOQ/vVmzBZ9HUBWcV579iaX0qRiDl cGz4tOOIfx+enM7pDUXwpBTubuLmZ9/QZ2sHRr/7zpOTcqxZLFUEG6ZNjQiB6oQyrBOI H08fvH9foVgtAlPEv+dMgOo1qFFhe8FpXzTkq3nDUrpc7EmMX/mNkry0H7GoA4fLhSSL CiQBNBr2L7WmyXe+r63lvshCuLxtv/s1lhmD93B/kiELfpzAzKKBb5uD+oRUoz9riI5h cgd/auhYYZHlzeq36yxE+s7WkfqTOO1DoaztRLw6Ye4p0SnGYBeTbl0gXr4+YcIFTRQK EfsQ== X-Received: by 10.66.145.199 with SMTP id sw7mr6801854pab.143.1389659003561; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:23:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from Zeuss-MacBook.local ([123.122.49.167]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id cz3sm37785469pbc.9.2014.01.13.16.23.21 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 16:23:23 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Liu References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACkAAAApAQAAAACAGz1bAAABKElEQVQYlWNg3NIt5FDPUPt7 4+X79Qyucz5/ugik+L2PBgKpyphaIK921q23QDnG0NBQoMr/vaWl9f8ZLL78uPv5PwN7RETfzXoG jhmFz27XM0RXmpuY/WfY+fv0Mc56BvFybfXA/wwL5t/wF61n2PU59axXPcOVzbmSW/8zrNt1benC /ww70hqUU/4zKCtrT9jwn8FhwynbufUMendE2aLqGRpdX9al1zM8eh17lKeeQcTMrdD5P8P3j/YT Q/8zXHSb7p1Qz/C4OM2JuZ7hgtI7K6AjqsMnf8j4z8C6xG1tw3+GqpqvsVn/GTzmpD9j/8/wP/oZ S/l/Bka+QO/g/wy15ueeFQL9N1O8mPU/g+umV3t1gdT0/1bTgHLqYVeXAlWKpMWt+w8Az82C9nHf X0cAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:23:18 +0800 In-Reply-To: <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> (martin rudalics's message of "Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:53:30 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (OS X 10.9.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 2014-01-12 17:53 +0800, martin rudalics wrote: > I know. But this was predated by > > ;; This makes `with-output-to-temp-buffer' buffers use `help-mode'. > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) > > and nobody suggested how to cleanly disentangle these. > > martin Stefan, Could you comment on this issue? Could we remove the following two add-hooks? --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- Martin, Assume help-mode and with-output-to-temp-buffer are decoupled, is it possible to merge the two macros with-output-to-temp-buffer and with-temp-buffer-window? Thank you, Leo From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:48:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: martin rudalics , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.13896640524668 (code B ref 16038); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:48:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Jan 2014 01:47:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49570 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W2t6J-0001DE-C5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:47:31 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:61123) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W2t6F-0001Cs-TC for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:47:28 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EABK/CFFMCoyj/2dsb2JhbABEvw4Xc4IeAQEEAScvIwULCw4mEhQYDSSIHgbBLZEKA4hhnBmBXoMV X-IPAS-Result: Av4EABK/CFFMCoyj/2dsb2JhbABEvw4Xc4IeAQEEAScvIwULCw4mEhQYDSSIHgbBLZEKA4hhnBmBXoMV X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="44871435" Received: from 76-10-140-163.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.140.163]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 13 Jan 2014 20:47:27 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id EF1C1612B0; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:47:26 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier Message-ID: References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:47:26 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Leo Liu's message of "Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:23:18 +0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > Could you comment on this issue? Could we remove the following two > add-hooks? > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- What makes you think we could? Stefan From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Leo Liu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 04:43:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Monnier Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.138967456224691 (code B ref 16038); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 04:43:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Jan 2014 04:42:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49622 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W2vpp-0006QA-SS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:42:42 -0500 Received: from mail-pd0-f176.google.com ([209.85.192.176]:39597) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W2vpo-0006Px-3H for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:42:41 -0500 Received: by mail-pd0-f176.google.com with SMTP id r10so4311948pdi.35 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:42:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=DJA4NgZ5TC/Z0C+m4mm9EzZ0iWoqs4h/SiXjB+7UeSo=; b=VIUa95CVdJn+tGxdfW6Y5TU4mxrhJwjPHMvC6zzfZgNZjcDp10bAxLZCAMaxQh9m2i 7AVk1eoCYQOdoJtwrTj9W+3IxlLe6CSg8exPwipWNn84VvDLCgUW89F4righY+P3TBOY 88+WHRWGJI98H3laUc3RJOH+5RxxnBdHkU0ScyC6lUEIUZMjeXouwDCjPs0Pz2zj4AiP AmMzurJUBcBBYUkMiIj2VuETHEONuvz5bgxHaleZjkeZOnrd1RswilGIz/7j6dJLU/yV /M59RWozhpUaDor8ogQvNkq908bP1tTqpHqX+0ishCzju/dKOF8SkHVdGiWW5Mz/rIhv 5EgQ== X-Received: by 10.66.136.71 with SMTP id py7mr34847305pab.2.1389674556035; Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:42:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from Zeuss-MacBook.local ([123.122.49.167]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id os1sm54008514pac.20.2014.01.13.20.42.33 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:42:35 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Liu References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAElBMVEUAAAAAAP+LRRP0pGC+ vr7///+7mT1iAAAAAWJLR0QAiAUdSAAAAAlwSFlzAAALEwAACxMBAJqcGAAAAAd0SU1FB9cBBwMO DhglKe4AAAEsSURBVCjPbZNBboQwDEV/Cd4X9QJRThApmn0XYW+Jyf2v0m+HhqDBgiAe9rcTG7QH w/1Vn2Ar8gBb/ocywSN3qK9T3z4eFDB4eApocBpeBs1RSykoJd8gQcm8pGmHXFso3ajnmsqV0TnY DQkOfXUfN5NwaI7AWTVOyEhcu1aHmdWItHddUVUcUgUBCkitu8V6ditHVOVdqzl2EQ1ZVGTbdK0V 7cqn8vWzoU5Q/bF9Y/Y0cRU1xwkys5dJ+Dt6pBDWifcNQml8Gh2JVmPSoQzo7en0grswkxrUGYJ7 0hSxxAGr7ZMwYcHIzprpi7TENEE1xtiYxixRlCfPBsUUrwHD7uGIwATrbnODJcVrPpVn3hxiGloe m/S+z3CtuzUSMo83N4DPH+F0evwR3P4A2k+75838OKQAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:42:31 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:47:26 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (OS X 10.9.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) On 2014-01-14 09:47 +0800, Stefan Monnier wrote: > What makes you think we could? > > > Stefan I have no idea why those hooks are needed in the first place. Thus asking. The commit that added this is: revno: 39713 committer: Miles Bader timestamp: Tue 2001-10-09 11:17:39 +0000 message: Don't require `view' when compiling. (help-with-tutorial, describe-function, describe-function-1) (variable-at-point, describe-variable, locate-library): Functions moved into `help-funs.el'. (help-manyarg-func-alist): Variable moved into `help-funs.el'. (help-mode, help-mode-setup, help-mode-finish, help-button-action) (help-setup-xref, help-xref-following, help-make-xrefs) (help-xref-button, help-insert-xref-button, help-xref-interned) (help-xref-go-back, help-go-back, help-do-xref, help-follow) (help-xref-on-pp): Functions moved into `help-mode.el' (help-mode-map, help-xref-stack, help-xref-stack-item) (help-highlight-p, help-highlight-face, help-back-label) (help-xref-symbol-regexp, help-xref-mule-regexp) (help-xref-info-regexp): Variables moved into `help-mode.el'. (help-symbol, help-back, help-info, help-customize-variable) (help-function-def, help-variable-def): Button-types moved into `help-mode.el'. (load-symbol-file-load-history, symbol-file): Functions moved into `subr.el'. (symbol-file-load-history-loaded): Variable moved into `subr.el'. (view-lossage): Call `help-setup-xref' instead of doing it manually. Now that with-help-window is implemented on top of with-temp-buffer-window, it seems they are useless. The whole thing also looks odd how temp-buffer is tied to help-buffer/window etc? Leo From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:39:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.138973551524386 (code B ref 16038); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:39:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Jan 2014 21:38:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50742 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W3Bgw-0006LG-5Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:38:34 -0500 Received: from mercure.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.24.67]:43022) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W3Bgt-0006L6-Le for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:38:32 -0500 Received: from hidalgo.iro.umontreal.ca (hidalgo.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.50]) by mercure.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2472484CB4; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from lechon.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by hidalgo.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837101E5B74; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:38:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by lechon.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 646B4B40D3; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:38:05 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier Message-ID: References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:38:05 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Leo Liu's message of "Tue, 14 Jan 2014 12:42:31 +0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-DIRO-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-DIRO-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-DIRO-MailScanner-SpamCheck: n'est pas un polluriel, SpamAssassin (score=-2.82, requis 5, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -2.82, MC_TSTLAST 0.00) X-DIRO-MailScanner-From: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) > I have no idea why those hooks are needed in the first place. They were needed because temp-buffer was tied to help-buffer/window. > The commit that added this is: > revno: 39713 > committer: Miles Bader > timestamp: Tue 2001-10-09 11:17:39 +0000 > message: > Don't require `view' when compiling. > (help-with-tutorial, describe-function, describe-function-1) > (variable-at-point, describe-variable, locate-library): > Functions moved into `help-funs.el'. > (help-manyarg-func-alist): Variable moved into `help-funs.el'. > (help-mode, help-mode-setup, help-mode-finish, help-button-action) > (help-setup-xref, help-xref-following, help-make-xrefs) > (help-xref-button, help-insert-xref-button, help-xref-interned) > (help-xref-go-back, help-go-back, help-do-xref, help-follow) > (help-xref-on-pp): Functions moved into `help-mode.el' > (help-mode-map, help-xref-stack, help-xref-stack-item) > (help-highlight-p, help-highlight-face, help-back-label) > (help-xref-symbol-regexp, help-xref-mule-regexp) > (help-xref-info-regexp): Variables moved into `help-mode.el'. > (help-symbol, help-back, help-info, help-customize-variable) > (help-function-def, help-variable-def): > Button-types moved into `help-mode.el'. > (load-symbol-file-load-history, symbol-file): > Functions moved into `subr.el'. > (symbol-file-load-history-loaded): Variable moved into `subr.el'. > (view-lossage): Call `help-setup-xref' instead of doing it manually. Are you sure? This looks like a commit that mostly moves code around. I think those hook functions are older. > Now that with-help-window is implemented on top of > with-temp-buffer-window, it seems they are useless. That could be. But someone needs to look in detail at whether that's the case or not. > The whole thing also looks odd how temp-buffer is tied to > help-buffer/window etc? You know, hysterical raisins'n stuff. Stefan From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:56:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Monnier , Leo Liu Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.138973654426283 (code B ref 16038); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:56:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Jan 2014 21:55:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50751 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W3BxX-0006pp-3Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:55:43 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:43978) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W3BxU-0006pf-9g for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:55:41 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0ELtcYM002464 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:55:39 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0ELtb3J023201 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:55:38 GMT Received: from abhmp0009.oracle.com (abhmp0009.oracle.com [141.146.116.15]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0ELtbwR010865; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:55:37 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:55:36 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) > I have no idea why those hooks are needed in the first place. Uh, for when you want to associate some action with either setting up or showing a so-called "temp" buffer (which unfortunately for the name means a help buffer, since we have now loaded such buffers and their displays down with help-specific stuff). For example, to have the frame be automatically fit to the buffer contents if there is only one window, you can do this (if you have library `autofit-frame.el'): (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'fit-frame-if-one-window 'append) From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Leo Liu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 23:47:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Stefan Monnier , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.13897432195589 (code B ref 16038); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 23:47:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Jan 2014 23:46:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50778 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W3DhC-0001S5-Qy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 18:46:59 -0500 Received: from mail-pb0-f52.google.com ([209.85.160.52]:44669) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W3Dh6-0001Rn-MP for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 18:46:53 -0500 Received: by mail-pb0-f52.google.com with SMTP id uo5so316807pbc.39 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 15:46:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=a/Fy9MpEB8eEcFCvZNmokddsxoK4SCD6jMr2g54J9eU=; b=E2u0eT5pgwr2vLwnpj3rQlm+BOdsSlduY+XIGw1nh+RcejL9YscdpzeS863M4ScuRn Kdtzel0dKVOAIlqEQ6h5dJfa5kg5cmozD3VeLf2rTQhExWIXsdlhvTF+ztZFhqwqtaPa 6/lxiGT1wAyPvDQTuaYfzJLya6HpAI3B1t452RSw7HdrwmFTHs+QQn3b6ZfFNYwbM3nw cxlWT4P/gD6gM8jdecJOHi1dLr7+zWS2THQZMKQ2b0JCetJRN5upaCzbkfdbLxD0awWN V/8TJuKeUOdw+QnCWKr4M6fmw7cyfb6a8AcQOKHwCUGpElfhFBgKTa3ydPgmQlz33+sI MUvg== X-Received: by 10.68.237.228 with SMTP id vf4mr4782919pbc.131.1389743210618; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 15:46:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from Zeuss-MacBook.local ([123.122.49.167]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id cz3sm3762370pbc.9.2014.01.14.15.46.47 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jan 2014 15:46:50 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Liu References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACkAAAApAQAAAACAGz1bAAABKElEQVQYlWNg3NIt5FDPUPt7 4+X79Qyucz5/ugik+L2PBgKpyphaIK921q23QDnG0NBQoMr/vaWl9f8ZLL78uPv5PwN7RETfzXoG jhmFz27XM0RXmpuY/WfY+fv0Mc56BvFybfXA/wwL5t/wF61n2PU59axXPcOVzbmSW/8zrNt1benC /ww70hqUU/4zKCtrT9jwn8FhwynbufUMendE2aLqGRpdX9al1zM8eh17lKeeQcTMrdD5P8P3j/YT Q/8zXHSb7p1Qz/C4OM2JuZ7hgtI7K6AjqsMnf8j4z8C6xG1tw3+GqpqvsVn/GTzmpD9j/8/wP/oZ S/l/Bka+QO/g/wy15ueeFQL9N1O8mPU/g+umV3t1gdT0/1bTgHLqYVeXAlWKpMWt+w8Az82C9nHf X0cAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 07:46:43 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:55:36 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (OS X 10.9.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 2014-01-15 05:55 +0800, Drew Adams wrote: > Uh, for when you want to associate some action with either setting > up or showing a so-called "temp" buffer (which unfortunately for > the name means a help buffer, since we have now loaded such buffers > and their displays down with help-specific stuff). > > For example, to have the frame be automatically fit to the buffer > contents if there is only one window, you can do this (if you have > library `autofit-frame.el'): > > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook > 'fit-frame-if-one-window > 'append) Sorry if I haven't been clear. This is not proposing removing those hooks but removing the add-hooks i.e.: (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) Leo From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Leo Liu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 02:15:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Monnier Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139035688732430 (code B ref 16038); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 02:15:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jan 2014 02:14:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60062 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W5nL4-0008R0-OJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 21:14:46 -0500 Received: from mail-pd0-f171.google.com ([209.85.192.171]:46788) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W5nL2-0008Qn-A3 for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 21:14:45 -0500 Received: by mail-pd0-f171.google.com with SMTP id g10so8207411pdj.16 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:14:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=Dqhn456dACGlX+sLERp1oRK0FnTVjPZmgPGP4xorAEU=; b=Gr1lJCd0ppB2rDaOxh05FpoVWgI3QVGBzOssHeHkDU9eTUakfzfz23zkJaeRPblcvW YLwXi4lMIHE+bDbl8qIBcCwAw1TcFNri4xOYY7UMnGPxbb9BhjZFB4vfV+tHy2sIWdbl xWjmP7OSvQ/td5+BsufLdY4N2+p9wgoIp5NCf/gfl+ZnXZpIrSsSRlcSQgoMyMWhIKyF wuBOWlv6sW7pQj6xxhPJq5XEeBA/jwfZ/yCc8fZE2tscnZbKxYM9FCAt+HSpMftuNWi+ VLRv47SKQS+gCFnaLwXp7k0XpRy4ZJRsRzWFqTxvWaS+bbeUvwrOBczo53o0tQ7WwLPp K9KA== X-Received: by 10.68.178.229 with SMTP id db5mr28070196pbc.97.1390356883386; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from Zeuss-MacBook.local ([124.64.111.76]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id gg10sm16747489pbc.46.2014.01.21.18.14.41 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Jan 2014 18:14:42 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Liu References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoAgMAAADxkFD+AAAADFBMVEUvT09qWs3/pQD///+J kUVcAAAAAWJLR0QAiAUdSAAAAAlwSFlzAAALEwAACxMBAJqcGAAAAAd0SU1FB9cBBwMLOd3veKQA AACuSURBVBjTldE9CgIxEAXgB+lEyFUC2wo5ikdZ8DSypxhMY7H9VuIVwlqkGRgnm59VsHGafIQ3 CZlAtmKIRaHETgYa12lqvEsPYKf8wXHsPGfqPaUM0g9aJPKFXkmNQmSDqwzz4Fpgpz+6WAPY2z5o uPJJpu0uypcl4nyCibMLQ8lCiVjayLoQvw5LsVKQuHPRR958HZbOcVsKeepcLxpByjycGvnKmY+c MBvrtyjfe0vmuLvdq/kAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:14:32 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:38:05 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (OS X 10.9.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) On 2014-01-15 05:38 +0800, Stefan Monnier wrote: > Are you sure? This looks like a commit that mostly moves code around. > I think those hook functions are older. I am not sure the repo goes back further than 2001. >> Now that with-help-window is implemented on top of >> with-temp-buffer-window, it seems they are useless. > > That could be. But someone needs to look in detail at whether that's > the case or not. I have been using the trunk without those add-hooks and haven't seen any ill-effect for the past week. Leo From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 03:03:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.13903597504984 (code B ref 16038); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 03:03:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jan 2014 03:02:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60069 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W5o5F-0001II-PP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:02:30 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:58871) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W5o5D-0001I8-Ey for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:02:28 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EABK/CFG4rxHA/2dsb2JhbABEvw4Xc4IeAQEEAVYjEAsOJhIUGA0kiB4GsR+QDpEKA4hhnBmBXoMV X-IPAS-Result: Av4EABK/CFG4rxHA/2dsb2JhbABEvw4Xc4IeAQEEAVYjEAsOJhIUGA0kiB4GsR+QDpEKA4hhnBmBXoMV X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="45555816" Received: from 184-175-17-192.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([184.175.17.192]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 21 Jan 2014 22:02:26 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id BEF04663AB; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:02:25 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier Message-ID: References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:02:25 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Leo Liu's message of "Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:14:32 +0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) >>> Now that with-help-window is implemented on top of >>> with-temp-buffer-window, it seems they are useless. >> That could be. But someone needs to look in detail at whether that's >> the case or not. > I have been using the trunk without those add-hooks and haven't seen any > ill-effect for the past week. Could you explain why it doesn't have any ill-effect? Put it another way, could you try to characterize in which case it would make a difference, and then try and figure out (or argue) that such a situation never happens or at least is very unlikely. Stefan From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Glenn Morris Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 03:08:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: Stefan Monnier , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.13903600425509 (code B ref 16038); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 03:08:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jan 2014 03:07:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60078 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W5o9y-0001Qm-7Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:07:22 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:41627) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W5o9w-0001Qf-QD for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:07:21 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W5o9w-0002Jq-6G; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:07:20 -0500 From: Glenn Morris References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> X-Spook: cypherpunk Noriega Bin Laden government Serbian Soviet X-Ran: 5~-.Qn;_=5GpQPpv||%vO*%}Z[_f(\=!JE*%$DvHVTPHRQX*NRi1etw0Ae}I3?LnvSwN:; X-Hue: blue X-Attribution: GM Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:07:20 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Leo Liu's message of "Wed, 22 Jan 2014 10:14:32 +0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.6 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.6 (-----) Leo Liu wrote: > I am not sure the repo goes back further than 2001. bzr log -c 1 -> timestamp: Thu 1985-04-18 00:48:29 +0000 Anyway, vc-annotate is your friend: (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) appeared in r24049, 1999-01-11. (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) appeared in r20061, 1997-10-15 (as help-mode-maybe). From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Leo Liu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 03:39:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Monnier Cc: Glenn Morris , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139036189513284 (code B ref 16038); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 03:39:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jan 2014 03:38:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60094 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W5odq-0003S9-5C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:38:14 -0500 Received: from mail-pa0-f46.google.com ([209.85.220.46]:43481) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W5odm-0003Rx-15 for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:38:10 -0500 Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id rd3so9224332pab.5 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:38:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=6lYcGCUo7OpSWMF5JuAyxgIHwAAGeZ5fmIthhmstr3U=; b=dzyOjFuV8fCsdQD83Al9cZvbUe/duQEw8Gq294wkNOnu5ESxdrzOTxAWRJSupIgJZE YoWosSfsIKqv9sA+d5QMf93oMMmxu2iyYI5zv3PM9ePQtxALQCmtogkJ7nhsabTtAdql QDvj0Byw0ojYKfLo2fzLbPUYYtRxQYKDaLD67owfGP1bunNpcd6yTFCLaaTl0l+fKf0V 0zePRlLSiVeR5ZKZ9U57rlF8qFFlEsxIIVSzDS2TRHO93dsdoQ1C3R5OL8HecOIeK0Kx Qk0P/Y2wY1ncvUSOKdQqh0A519eLELqe3lOXhYSBOnuhQcp/99H1+yhjzg689KxM1PR4 /GfQ== X-Received: by 10.66.149.37 with SMTP id tx5mr28407469pab.81.1390361528567; Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from Zeuss-MacBook.local ([124.64.111.76]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id zc5sm17299070pbc.41.2014.01.21.19.32.04 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Jan 2014 19:32:08 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Liu References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAMFBMVEUaFRZLMy1dTENxVzKQ WiCrXQ97cmO/dSqSh3akjGTApXy5sJ7Sxo/Sz8Xo6eP9//xJbkruAAAAAWJLR0QAiAUdSAAAAAlw SFlzAAACxQAAAsUBidZ/7wAAAAd0SU1FB9cBBwMJOwHXewoAAAIBSURBVCjPVdNBiNNAFADQ6J4F x3hThHZBBC+WCFI8SS0iezRDcMHLHkLAg6gJH/fgYQ9xYlj2sLK4KHgqCgXFhda2Idmr4kkQPZQ0 nkQMbTypbMmMM2m7ZgYSmMef/5OZPwo7HFnx3uKPcmj0Dht1LWZJ+Hvr7dIFZXRUwl9VRTuuKDJ+ U44gjscknK4hhJaCkYRsWjmBtLqXlJAG2wipNe18OZJu1BBq1E8xafl4s6Jq2mUZGftU1y7CCxnp FVUDWJXx4C66BKBnErbuoaYNtoRTu6EZBsCbMn7W+5qOAR6WvxNOby9jHWC9hAf3n304CdiAByXs 3Nh9roLDkyb/sWV712vYwaLSAn8CPMHIAAzOPDKP2COAFm4Y4ODVWc6xG7KXsN7UeUJjjimx2uwd gCgNhr0i8C/xyCD5CiCKAMY3Bf5oDzx//w/fimscdcAZU2jv9sedx6+nYPPFIoWI/GK6QZ+EFGOR ErAjCnV3vPZ7XqlTIMbOLY7fLcvvmT7rXNWaGDexIY44N12TG2PDp7vqyl57dnCeuWwyNpnEURxk fTbDYeBnKRn4oejPYI4sH6WviBumEZ/GxX4X/x6EcURFZ7E071bjQGAxpcOAEOJuTiroDEea5Szv rVWLYfl7ZiQwSUToxrkux7OLixAWGz22+HIyWTRYcVfomOwvzusfjtVIGgLHf3MAAAAASUVORK5C YII= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:32:00 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:02:25 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (OS X 10.9.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 2014-01-22 11:02 +0800, Stefan Monnier wrote: [snipped 7 lines] > Could you explain why it doesn't have any ill-effect? > Put it another way, could you try to characterize in which case it would > make a difference, and then try and figure out (or argue) that such > a situation never happens or at least is very unlikely. > > > Stefan On 2014-01-22 11:07 +0800, Glenn Morris wrote: [snipped 3 lines] > bzr log -c 1 > > -> timestamp: Thu 1985-04-18 00:48:29 +0000 > > > Anyway, vc-annotate is your friend: > > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) > appeared in r24049, 1999-01-11. > > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) > appeared in r20061, 1997-10-15 (as help-mode-maybe). Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------ revno: 20061 committer: Karl Heuer timestamp: Wed 1997-10-15 23:36:30 +0000 message: (help-mode-maybe): New function, on temp-buffer-show-hook. (describe-key, describe-mode): Don't call help-mode here. (view-lossage, describe-function, describe-variable): Likewise. ------------------------------------------------------------ revno: 24049 committer: Richard M. Stallman timestamp: Mon 1999-01-11 15:25:41 +0000 message: (help-mode-finish): Renamed from help-mode-maybe. Don't switch to Help mode here. (temp-buffer-setup-hook): Use help-mode-finish. (help-mode-setup): New function. (temp-buffer-setup-hook): Use help-mode-setup. So these hooks were added for help mode which is no longer using with-output-to-temp-buffer but with-temp-buffer-window i.e. they are not needed any more. Stefan, do you have anything in mind that might be affected without these add-hooks? Removing them would of course leave temp-buffers in fundamental mode. But other than that I haven't seen anything strange. Leo From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:45:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: Glenn Morris , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139039824515923 (code B ref 16038); Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:45:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Jan 2014 13:44:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60371 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W5y68-00048l-P8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:44:05 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:47287) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W5y66-00048N-6v for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:44:02 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EABK/CFG4rxHA/2dsb2JhbABEvw4Xc4IeAQEEAVYjBQsLDiYSFBgNJIgeBsEtkQoDiGGcGYFegxU X-IPAS-Result: Av4EABK/CFG4rxHA/2dsb2JhbABEvw4Xc4IeAQEEAVYjBQsLDiYSFBgNJIgeBsEtkQoDiGGcGYFegxU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="45584693" Received: from 184-175-17-192.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([184.175.17.192]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 22 Jan 2014 08:44:01 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id E355760323; Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:44:00 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier Message-ID: References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:44:00 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Leo Liu's message of "Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:32:00 +0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > Stefan, do you have anything in mind that might be affected without > these add-hooks? No, I don't know the code enough to have any idea about it. > Removing them would of course leave temp-buffers in fundamental mode. > But other than that I haven't seen anything strange. OK, so let's remove them as soon as the trunk re-opens. Stefan From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Leo Liu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:05:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Monnier Cc: martin rudalics , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139047144727736 (code B ref 16038); Thu, 23 Jan 2014 10:05:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Jan 2014 10:04:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32965 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6H8p-0007DI-AH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 05:04:07 -0500 Received: from mail-pd0-f173.google.com ([209.85.192.173]:39664) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6H8n-0007DA-HG for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 05:04:05 -0500 Received: by mail-pd0-f173.google.com with SMTP id y10so1582849pdj.18 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:04:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=4gqLFFiFx1sLqCi5hXa/XjSXuF+5N7RgGhoQ0S0nYek=; b=p1B/XkpIAHiNqhPjHJJRUY/V5VYp95fPrKk47EPwv6bzEC8IEc6EPtcj5hRay+QrLy lTZ1f+0k9xe0h8SqWTLBv997/Ftv91hpByNCiIQCB5b07d+c2bb2AjqW8LRdNgDJKCzL jbiKsI/EyozgvyzdvRQoPAgTWmlz4P0NKWK0qC3Ti+nAesy0aY/Fx/2xSTet/g090qpb F1um+DBMGBosbydOh7ts730AK/gPiIF69WGfV/rs5zYANvSnQdcNt9AGjG6Sfo4A9nuC 6wBD4n9sCOPMi6c6e7ksKivqBVF1mu/2aX8nJwbgDKkOr/AV/aOQFwAtKy3km+4rAvJW oSqA== X-Received: by 10.66.66.234 with SMTP id i10mr7104978pat.127.1390471444594; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:04:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from Zeuss-MacBook.local ([124.64.111.76]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id by1sm34367255pbd.25.2014.01.23.02.04.02 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 23 Jan 2014 02:04:03 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Liu References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoBAMAAAB+0KVeAAAAGFBMVEUKDAg1NjRWV1V9fnyg op/DxcLk5uP8/voi63ReAAAACXBIWXMAAAWJAAAFiQFtaJ36AAAAB3RJTUUH1goZAgAz00bgXgAA AeVJREFUKM9lk0Fz2jAQhQXJD3CCO70CmcC1YMtcWyTZ14Bl69xats4N9r6/3zWQBlodNKNPu/s0 b1cCQFuZGpfVVh3vAvBJolIXRkapSuoRUtIdFyo1Y5xSdlAj7OtvD1XnXxmWRi+eWgcxyCed1lVV B1CrKyujMoi+eLA5kU1SsjoHlW+nQjTtFxk4MXgrOxvIqzoTZR8XgPaLl419zgsMaSGFPiUOZCIh thsx5Xy9NsK8Kwf/JoQgMxcVJ301HKkcSWaT0O7FY056J4U9xcYfnmVXG4801lW6lqwu2nKFZoHC HuzvaTVndZ+LaRQgZdthXw1cpynEkLEwyFHXk/aIxNQ6QeooJuzPMB+wn+D7JJNsiCcVA13/A3h/ xE9J+WidpAwoYNmRFwyvSRhNVtsdaAewzZZP5uw82QL9+tyNfocyP0McAzICUr5Mk9RdIjWasUNx aIIt6NK4ZtXIMdfMQt3nuMAyWbLI4DqZ4xPq/ag8jPond4XU/cLuOgw6XCFX/YCUfcDAMMH58fD4 G9kDchwfqVefkBwup2uZM+Q4WhJt5jN3AxXCsaS2yXEDuWgS8VOzW0gFjhEPmLyFMKBFaLb1HRwc DiaKwx0EeTMRYnYPQRW3PP4HApvlMv0PttX5v/D6Aws3IOSEwzmLAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 18:03:59 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:44:00 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (OS X 10.9.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) On 2014-01-22 21:44 +0800, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> Removing them would of course leave temp-buffers in fundamental mode. >> But other than that I haven't seen anything strange. > > OK, so let's remove them as soon as the trunk re-opens. Stefan, OK, I'll take care of this. Martin, now that we have this good news, will you be able to go ahead with deprecating with-output-to-temp-buffer and merge it with with-temp-buffer-window or vice versa? Thanks, Leo From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu , Stefan Monnier Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139049933324540 (code B ref 16038); Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:49:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Jan 2014 17:48:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33694 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6OOa-0006Nk-OR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:48:52 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:51773) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6OOZ-0006Na-4y for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 12:48:51 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0NHmnBr019990 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:48:49 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0NHmmN2021647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:48:48 GMT Received: from abhmp0017.oracle.com (abhmp0017.oracle.com [141.146.116.23]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0NHmlIR021627; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 17:48:47 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:48:46 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > Martin, now that we have this good news, will you be able to go ahead > with deprecating with-output-to-temp-buffer and merge it with > with-temp-buffer-window or vice versa? Huh? What's this about? Why on Earth would we deprecate `with-output-to-temp-buffer'? How about some reasons for such a proposal? My code and other 3rd-party libraries use `with-output-to-temp-buffer' all over the place. But I have no code that uses `with-temp-buffer-window'. And googling for it shows one hit to the Elisp manual and the rest are hits to Emacs bugs! I do not see zillions of users of `with-temp-buffer-window', which was not introduced until Emacs 24.3. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Leo Liu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 07:31:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Stefan Monnier , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139054862217452 (code B ref 16038); Fri, 24 Jan 2014 07:31:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Jan 2014 07:30:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34065 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6bDZ-0004XO-7A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 02:30:21 -0500 Received: from mail-pa0-f54.google.com ([209.85.220.54]:53527) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6bDV-0004XE-R7 for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 02:30:18 -0500 Received: by mail-pa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id fa1so2916311pad.41 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 23:30:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=OaIJ+BKjuPAvUC4VODqi40zFg9NgtXHLWtVyE68sY3Q=; b=qTyt1amFKrRJYBNoOrqCd4+G1LZxbqqKISgtWzsgbL566adodaIbD/GIFA8m5/36rY UYTrd7ms+LApwU+aI2eKfNwknAxXlr7CEF6fadA6hKhQfSllw+wDzSap1WDbZZ6L1u8f 1zn/7nvHeE/7Ibpt0gCMgOszhOQx60e7qdyC2Dp89V333I6bgbS8nVp/3V0ACPT9uTAr GFxBcHqfD5FL5dSN9U1ARdCvJ3xOx2uOtyCqobUt4f81jTULkDg+q8j94A1zFrwFVRtH +PD9CjpmMxv/ipU3ofnt7otNohqiKHTXrgI4PXrWP9NWiexWvU3qphORaEbpkvWK0K0w jKMg== X-Received: by 10.67.5.233 with SMTP id cp9mr12395892pad.147.1390548616560; Thu, 23 Jan 2014 23:30:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from Zeuss-MacBook.local ([124.64.111.76]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id jp3sm132964pbc.36.2014.01.23.23.30.13 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 23 Jan 2014 23:30:15 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Liu References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACgAAAAoAgMAAADxkFD+AAAADFBMVEUvT09qWs3/pQD///+J kUVcAAAAAWJLR0QAiAUdSAAAAAlwSFlzAAALEwAACxMBAJqcGAAAAAd0SU1FB9cBBwMLOd3veKQA AACuSURBVBjTldE9CgIxEAXgB+lEyFUC2wo5ikdZ8DSypxhMY7H9VuIVwlqkGRgnm59VsHGafIQ3 CZlAtmKIRaHETgYa12lqvEsPYKf8wXHsPGfqPaUM0g9aJPKFXkmNQmSDqwzz4Fpgpz+6WAPY2z5o uPJJpu0uypcl4nyCibMLQ8lCiVjayLoQvw5LsVKQuHPRR958HZbOcVsKeepcLxpByjycGvnKmY+c MBvrtyjfe0vmuLvdq/kAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 15:30:08 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Thu, 23 Jan 2014 09:48:46 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (OS X 10.9.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On 2014-01-24 01:48 +0800, Drew Adams wrote: > Huh? What's this about? Why on Earth would we deprecate > `with-output-to-temp-buffer'? How about some reasons for such a > proposal? > > My code and other 3rd-party libraries use `with-output-to-temp-buffer' > all over the place. > > But I have no code that uses `with-temp-buffer-window'. And googling > for it shows one hit to the Elisp manual and the rest are hits to > Emacs bugs! I do not see zillions of users of > `with-temp-buffer-window', which was not introduced until Emacs 24.3. We are trying to consolidate the features of the two macros into one so no feature is lost. Leo From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 15:07:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: Stefan Monnier , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.13905759783265 (code B ref 16038); Fri, 24 Jan 2014 15:07:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Jan 2014 15:06:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34675 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6iKn-0000qa-Qi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:06:18 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:42441) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6iKl-0000qQ-CF for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:06:16 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0OF6Exf022587 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 24 Jan 2014 15:06:14 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0OF6D4d017418 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 24 Jan 2014 15:06:13 GMT Received: from abhmp0017.oracle.com (abhmp0017.oracle.com [141.146.116.23]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0OF6D7T017392; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 15:06:13 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 07:06:11 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > > Huh? What's this about? Why on Earth would we deprecate > > `with-output-to-temp-buffer'? How about some reasons for such a > > proposal? > > > > My code and other 3rd-party libraries use `with-output-to-temp-buffer' > > all over the place. > > > > But I have no code that uses `with-temp-buffer-window'. And googling > > for it shows one hit to the Elisp manual and the rest are hits to > > Emacs bugs! I do not see zillions of users of > > `with-temp-buffer-window', which was not introduced until Emacs 24.3. >=20 > We are trying to consolidate the features of the two macros into one so > no feature is lost. Yes, clearly. I got that. But why would you even consider `with-temp-buffer-window', rather than `with-output-to-temp-buffer', as the end target of your consolidation? Incorporate whatever you feel you need to into `with-output-to-temp-buffer', as long as "no feature is lost" from it. But please do not consider deprecating `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. It was that possibility that was mentioned and that I replied to. If you feel that you need to deprecate something here, deprecate the new addition, `with-temp-buffer-window', which has hardly been used anywhere. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 15:46:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.13905783567372 (code B ref 16038); Fri, 24 Jan 2014 15:46:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Jan 2014 15:45:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34693 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6ix9-0001uq-PK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:45:56 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:52246) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6ix7-0001ud-OI for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 10:45:54 -0500 Received: from [62.47.46.45] ([62.47.46.45]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LjqLx-1VZr6v30yP-00bpT5 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:45:52 +0100 Message-ID: <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:45:51 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> In-Reply-To: <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:qvrQA6NFKVZIyFqyuCcQaPrbZZfoNndO2Rf59DP9cZf6lIE81xp S2sjFQWOnZROn5iIGMlAPjgy4oAFfOeQ+qi6AxAqtlA1nEgaav53jm2ZOTip0tCbXTDm+u4 S1O7fbZCxHhN8LPg+ihISrdgkx2YlBrUZZ427/jtpcYCrbV15314JqJSvPNBMGwYuOCyYZg VPqE0Nxm9FKUfMJxL/Y9g== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) > Yes, clearly. I got that. But why would you even consider > `with-temp-buffer-window', rather than `with-output-to-temp-buffer', as > the end target of your consolidation? > > Incorporate whatever you feel you need to into > `with-output-to-temp-buffer', as long as "no feature is lost" from it. > But please do not consider deprecating `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. > It was that possibility that was mentioned and that I replied to. > > If you feel that you need to deprecate something here, deprecate the > new addition, `with-temp-buffer-window', which has hardly been used > anywhere. The same author wrote in http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=8368 Sounds good to me. My only proposal in that regard was to create an alias with a better name (e.g. `...-help-...'), and deprecate `with-output-to-temp-buffer' to encourage use of the new name. martin, who couldn't resist From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:30:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139058096711470 (code B ref 16038); Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:30:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Jan 2014 16:29:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34712 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6jdF-0002yu-UN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:29:26 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:20303) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6jdC-0002yk-V8 for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:29:23 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0OGTLn7029899 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:29:22 GMT Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0OGTKeU013533 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:29:21 GMT Received: from abhmp0017.oracle.com (abhmp0017.oracle.com [141.146.116.23]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0OGTK1d000432; Fri, 24 Jan 2014 16:29:20 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:29:19 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > The same author wrote in http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D8= 368 >=20 > Sounds good to me. My only proposal in that regard was to create an > alias with a better name (e.g. `...-help-...'), and deprecate > `with-output-to-temp-buffer' to encourage use of the new name. >=20 > martin, who couldn't resist Yes, I said: Probably we will need to leave the original name for the current behavior, but if it could be aliased to something with "help" in the name, and then the original name deprecated, that would be better. (I think that's part of what you suggest.) And create a new name for the temp-without-the-help-stuff case. If you read the whole thread for bug #8368 then you will understand. Is the current discussion about fixing bug #8368? If you fix that problem as requested, great. I'm all in favor of what was requested in bug #8368. The name of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is not good. That macro has been abused for a long time by stuffing help-related stuff into it. That does not mean that we shouldn't have a macro that does what `with-output-to-temp-buffer' does. And as noted above, users should be encouraged, over time, to use the new, "help"-related name. If you have a complete fix for bug #8368, fine - please go for it. That is not what I think I am seeing in the bug #16038 thread. Fixing bug #8368 includes not only renaming `with-output-to-temp-buffer' to something like `with-output-to-help-buffer' - AND fixing its doc to reflect what it really does - it is about help, but ALSO doing the same for any other `*-temp-*' things that really are `-*help*-' things. And, in particular, ALSO create real temporary-buffer facilities, including a real `with-output-to-temp-buffer' (but renamed, to avoid confusion), unencumbered by help-related stuff. IOW, fix the names and doc of the misnamed `*-temp-*' things to reflect the fact that they are about help. AND create real temporary-buffer things that are unrelated to help. I stressed the bit about creating real temporary-buffer things: The point of the last part is that there is a need for creating and using temporary buffers. That should never have been co-opted for help, but now that it is we should fix it properly: (a) call a spade a spade and (b) create new macros for really dealing with temporary buffers. And a year later... Can we please move forward on fixing this bug? There is lots of stuff in a "temp" buffer now that has nothing to do with a temporary buffer. All of the special help link and navigation commands should be reserved for a help mode that is _derived_ from a (minimal) temporary buffer mode. And later... I was pretty clear that the names are not what is most important to me. What matters most is to have a macro that does only the non-help stuff, separate from the macro that does also the help stuff. And this, especially pertinent to the current discussion: Deprecation does not mean immediate desupport, and it might not ever imply desupport. It means that what is deprecated _might_ be desupported at some time in the future. So users of the old name are not impacted. It's just a heads-up ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ to users. They are forewarned that they might want to update the name sooner rather than later. But they _need not_ do so until desupport happens, if it ever does. The new, preferred name is what will be documented and increasingly used for new code etc. Can you explain how bug #16038 relates to bug #8368? Is the latter being fixed by the fix by the fix for the former? Yes, I would like to see bug #8368 fixed. And I notice that some of what was pointed out in the #8368 report seems to be rediscovered now for bug #16038. #8368 is still a bug, AFAIK. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:22:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.13906416824642 (code B ref 16038); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:22:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2014 09:21:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35078 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6zQY-0001Co-1c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 04:21:22 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.15]:59306) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W6zQV-0001Cc-6j for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 04:21:20 -0500 Received: from [62.47.32.79] ([62.47.32.79]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx001) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LwrwO-1VDzAj1YAC-016S3d for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 10:21:17 +0100 Message-ID: <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 10:21:13 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:2lKrasJMKvWlQxt9dXAIPdp9GJxaepXQrzlj99VVKjoI1gbHh2q tVNgV4y4ejWVwxIfVQcj8lRR9TwKZhiCQ2LBwcQqRDbFJZ/y0vUp+rszlX3CAR557QXhIuS 2CfNnru77K4vCxOj9EEiwUfU8o+y3uOPhxJKav5mpremNynOsquZpd0j5WCfEu+iJB6GFR1 u+gbXvyt9vwaeiQseVQZA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) > Yes, I said: > > Probably we will need to leave the original name for the current > behavior, but if it could be aliased to something with "help" in > the name, and then the original name deprecated, that would be better. > (I think that's part of what you suggest.) And create a new name > for the temp-without-the-help-stuff case. > > If you read the whole thread for bug #8368 then you will understand. > Is the current discussion about fixing bug #8368? If you fix that > problem as requested, great. > > I'm all in favor of what was requested in bug #8368. The name of > `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is not good. That macro has been abused > for a long time by stuffing help-related stuff into it. > > That does not mean that we shouldn't have a macro that does what > `with-output-to-temp-buffer' does. And as noted above, users should > be encouraged, over time, to use the new, "help"-related name. > > If you have a complete fix for bug #8368, fine - please go for it. > That is not what I think I am seeing in the bug #16038 thread. > > Fixing bug #8368 includes not only renaming `with-output-to-temp-buffer' > to something like `with-output-to-help-buffer' - AND fixing its doc > to reflect what it really does - it is about help, but ALSO doing > the same for any other `*-temp-*' things that really are `-*help*-' > things. > > And, in particular, ALSO create real temporary-buffer facilities, > including a real `with-output-to-temp-buffer' (but renamed, to > avoid confusion), unencumbered by help-related stuff. > > IOW, fix the names and doc of the misnamed `*-temp-*' things to > reflect the fact that they are about help. AND create real > temporary-buffer things that are unrelated to help. > > I stressed the bit about creating real temporary-buffer things: > > The point of the last part is that there is a need for creating > and using temporary buffers. That should never have been co-opted > for help, but now that it is we should fix it properly: (a) call > a spade a spade and (b) create new macros for really dealing with > temporary buffers. > > And a year later... > > Can we please move forward on fixing this bug? > There is lots of stuff in a "temp" buffer now that has nothing to > do with a temporary buffer. All of the special help link and > navigation commands should be reserved for a help mode that is > _derived_ from a (minimal) temporary buffer mode. > > And later... > > I was pretty clear that the names are not what is most important > to me. What matters most is to have a macro that does only the > non-help stuff, separate from the macro that does also the help > stuff. > > And this, especially pertinent to the current discussion: > > Deprecation does not mean immediate desupport, and it might not > ever imply desupport. It means that what is deprecated _might_ be > desupported at some time in the future. > > So users of the old name are not impacted. It's just a heads-up > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > to users. They are forewarned that they might want to update the > name sooner rather than later. But they _need not_ do so until > desupport happens, if it ever does. The new, preferred name is > what will be documented and increasingly used for new code etc. > > Can you explain how bug #16038 relates to bug #8368? Is the latter > being fixed by the fix by the fix for the former? > > Yes, I would like to see bug #8368 fixed. And I notice that some > of what was pointed out in the #8368 report seems to be rediscovered > now for bug #16038. #8368 is still a bug, AFAIK. Maybe you should try to fix this problem: > But I have no code that uses `with-temp-buffer-window'. martin From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:35:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139066766631597 (code B ref 16038); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:35:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2014 16:34:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35830 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W76Bd-0008DT-Rw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 11:34:26 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:22366) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W76Bb-0008Cs-Go for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 11:34:24 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0PGYLJZ010915 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:34:22 GMT Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0PGYKYQ017968 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:34:20 GMT Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0PGYJV7016914; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:34:19 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 08:34:22 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > Maybe you should try to fix this problem: >=20 > > But I have no code that uses `with-temp-buffer-window'. What problem? Just what are you suggesting, concretely? What's the relation to fixing bug #8368? From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.13906685033685 (code B ref 16038); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:49:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2014 16:48:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35845 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W76P8-0000xN-LE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 11:48:22 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:54643) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W76P6-0000xB-VH for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 11:48:21 -0500 Received: from [62.47.61.211] ([62.47.61.211]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LikQP-1VamvW46VJ-00cvlZ for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:48:20 +0100 Message-ID: <52E3EAD0.2070701@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:48:16 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:G7Jbu/+Bzl4SEFCNB99dbwCA8LIrkOC5eHkK43fO54GMxCMKjji QWNjbFR3u/XQ3uP3yq7M3Qz4eRu1FY0kIxFidP1Y8G0mk/KA1Eslgd1HhVz+768QFSg/dkg 5UiAvII/SfXUpXcAyNDDVze9TMQjsvRjLqAyzMVK07qIH4yEw4ffptXNeT7t9v1+jaO2b2a 05Mhdavy4gAPYY8H4gDnw== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) > What problem? Just what are you suggesting, concretely? > What's the relation to fixing bug #8368? First re-read the thread of bug#8368. Then read the doc-string of `with-temp-buffer-window'. Then re-read the thread of bug#8368. Then re-read the doc-string ... martin From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:34:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139067120215922 (code B ref 16038); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:34:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2014 17:33:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35856 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W776f-00048i-NK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 12:33:22 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:28475) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W776d-00048Z-0C for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 12:33:19 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0PHXHKA012188 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:33:18 GMT Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0PHXHFT019549 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:33:17 GMT Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0PHXGK4019542; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:33:16 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <880b4937-a959-496b-9e20-b47f9ba3bce6@default> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:33:18 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> <52E3EAD0.2070701@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: <52E3EAD0.2070701@gmx.at> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > > Maybe you should try to fix this problem: > > > But I have no code that uses `with-temp-buffer-window'. > > > > What problem? Just what are you suggesting, concretely? > > What's the relation to fixing bug #8368? >=20 > First re-read the thread of bug#8368. Then read the doc-string of > `with-temp-buffer-window'. Then re-read the thread of bug#8368. > Then re-read the doc-string ... I have. But why do you say that -- is bug #8368 fixed? If you have a concrete suggestion, please offer it. And what is the "problem" that needs fixing with my not having any code that uses `with-temp-buffer-window'? If bug #8368 is now fixed, great: What code to replace with what code, concretely? Are the misnamed macros and hooks being renamed as well? I don't see that in the doc string of `with-temp-buffer-window'. If a macro and the hooks it uses are all about *Help* then they should not be named `with-output-to-temp-buffer', `temp-buffer-setup-hook' etc. They should have "help" in their names instead of "temp". =3D=3D=3D> bug #8368. Adding new hooks that have almost the same names but very different meanings and uses is a bad idea. `temp-buffer-window-setup-hook' and `temp-buffer-setup-hook' sound like they would be similar, with the difference being "window". Alas no. I don't have a problem with your new names. The problem is with the old names, and with not deprecating them, _especially_ after adding false-friend new names. The old macros and hooks should be renamed to use "help" - with aliases provided for the old names, with deprecation of the old names, and preferably with no plan to _ever_ desupport the old names. (Deprecation does not imply desupport. It allows for later desupport, but in some cases desupport is not possible or advisable or necessary.) FWIW, the NEWS is, I would think, one good place to put deprecation notices. If `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is deprecated, we should learn in the NEWS that this is the case AND what it is replaced by. IOW, tell users how to update their code. Likewise for the misnamed hooks etc. Instead, at least so far, NEWS has only this:=20 *** New macro `with-temp-buffer-window', similar to `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. That "similar to" might do more harm than help. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:26:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139067434721323 (code B ref 16038); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:26:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2014 18:25:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35872 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W77vO-0005Xo-L6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:25:47 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:64467) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W77vI-0005XT-SR for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:25:42 -0500 Received: from [62.47.61.211] ([62.47.61.211]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M9s2y-1W0ZPH3y9Y-00B0N6 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:25:40 +0100 Message-ID: <52E401A0.1000101@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:25:36 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> <52E3EAD0.2070701@gmx.at> <880b4937-a959-496b-9e20-b47f9ba3bce6@default> In-Reply-To: <880b4937-a959-496b-9e20-b47f9ba3bce6@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:0DO8EPQJCj8dh6aj3XyKeUqGflvXdrva0TKXKrG1UjCK210pLmB 3rBVq0BhjFUxacdl611LjgOeSe2gYS9nzv1zvziuxvyYvKpihQhnRRbhRucP8oOjK5t1Wue lUGfxPXwf17LI6oXlj6caKT/w8k1a15MVLhR9fZEbo2pcI0Cz0b2Y7PMy9YyOOhwvvuad/E luNgpnMN0MNbCO8uMNIDg== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) >> First re-read the thread of bug#8368. Then read the doc-string of >> `with-temp-buffer-window'. Then re-read the thread of bug#8368. >> Then re-read the doc-string ... > > I have. But why do you say that To help you understand what you are saying. > -- is bug #8368 fixed? I don't know and I don't care. I almost forgot about it until you decided to participate in the present thread. > If you have a concrete suggestion, please offer it. > And what is the "problem" that needs fixing with my not having > any code that uses `with-temp-buffer-window'? The one you apparently have with `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. > If bug #8368 is now fixed, great: What code to replace with what > code, concretely? Your code that uses `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. > Are the misnamed macros and hooks being renamed > as well? > > I don't see that in the doc string of `with-temp-buffer-window'. > If a macro and the hooks it uses are all about *Help* then they > should not be named `with-output-to-temp-buffer', > `temp-buffer-setup-hook' etc. They should have "help" in their > names instead of "temp". ===> bug #8368. > > Adding new hooks that have almost the same names but very different > meanings and uses is a bad idea. `temp-buffer-window-setup-hook' > and `temp-buffer-setup-hook' sound like they would be similar, with > the difference being "window". Alas no. > > I don't have a problem with your new names. The problem is with > the old names, and with not deprecating them, _especially_ after > adding false-friend new names. > > The old macros and hooks should be renamed to use "help" - with > aliases provided for the old names, with deprecation of the old > names, and preferably with no plan to _ever_ desupport the old > names. (Deprecation does not imply desupport. It allows for > later desupport, but in some cases desupport is not possible or > advisable or necessary.) Maybe Leo would have started to do that if you had not interfered. I suggest you apologize and consult with him on how to proceed on this matter. > FWIW, the NEWS is, I would think, one good place to put > deprecation notices. If `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is > deprecated, we should learn in the NEWS that this is the case > AND what it is replaced by. IOW, tell users how to update their > code. Likewise for the misnamed hooks etc. > > Instead, at least so far, NEWS has only this: > > *** New macro `with-temp-buffer-window', similar to > `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. > > That "similar to" might do more harm than help. That's life. martin From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:20:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.13906811894874 (code B ref 16038); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:20:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2014 20:19:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35925 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W79hk-0001GY-QF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:19:49 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:22956) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W79hj-0001GN-Bn for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:19:48 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0PKJjKt032609 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:19:46 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0PKJiEG016782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:19:44 GMT Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0PKJiUr016778; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:19:44 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1da4f1b1-e119-442a-ac9c-f2687a9d1e05@default> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 12:19:46 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> <52E3EAD0.2070701@gmx.at> <880b4937-a959-496b-9e20-b47f9ba3bce6@default> <52E401A0.1000101@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: <52E401A0.1000101@gmx.at> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > > -- is bug #8368 fixed? >=20 > I don't know and I don't care. That's too bad. Especially for someone who participated actively in that thread and proposed (it seemed) a solution for it, to which Stefan seemed to give the go-ahead. Sorry you feel that way. > I almost forgot about it until you decided to participate in the > present thread. I'm glad that my participation reminded you of #8368, and you then brought it into this discussion. You were right to do so. It is relevant - not just the bug but the discussion thread. > > If you have a concrete suggestion, please offer it. > > And what is the "problem" that needs fixing with my not having > > any code that uses `with-temp-buffer-window'? >=20 > The one you apparently have with `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. And just what problem is that? You say there is a problem to fix in my code. What is the problem? (And what is the fix you have in mind?) > > If bug #8368 is now fixed, great: What code to replace with what > > code, concretely? >=20 > Your code that uses `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. Why should that be replaced? And if it should, just what should it to be replaced with? That is part of deprecating something: tell users what they should change to what in existing code. E.g., (old-foo this that) =3D=3D> (new-bar something-else that 42 (1- this)) or whatever. > > Are the misnamed macros and hooks being renamed as well? > > > > I don't see that in the doc string of `with-temp-buffer-window'. > > If a macro and the hooks it uses are all about *Help* then they > > should not be named `with-output-to-temp-buffer', > > `temp-buffer-setup-hook' etc. They should have "help" in their > > names instead of "temp". =3D=3D=3D> bug #8368. > > > > Adding new hooks that have almost the same names but very different > > meanings and uses is a bad idea. `temp-buffer-window-setup-hook' > > and `temp-buffer-setup-hook' sound like they would be similar, with > > the difference being "window". Alas no. > > > > I don't have a problem with your new names. The problem is with > > the old names, and with not deprecating them, _especially_ after > > adding false-friend new names. > > > > The old macros and hooks should be renamed to use "help" - with > > aliases provided for the old names, with deprecation of the old > > names, and preferably with no plan to _ever_ desupport the old > > names. (Deprecation does not imply desupport. It allows for > > later desupport, but in some cases desupport is not possible or > > advisable or necessary.) >=20 > Maybe Leo would have started to do that if you had not interfered. > I suggest you apologize and consult with him on how to proceed on > this matter. Suggest all you want, if it makes you feel better. But I do not feel that I interfered in any way. Nor do I think I have anything to apologize for. But you are welcome to apologize to me for suggesting that I have done something wrong and have something to apologize for. ;-) There might be some incomplete or incoherent changes that still need fixing or finishing. Dunno. But if so, none of those are my doing. And in spite of that state, no, I would not think of asking you or anyone else for an apology for that. People do their best, whether or not what they do is TRT or sufficient. On the contrary - to the extent that things will be improved, bravo and thank you, to you, Leo, or whomever. To the extent that that is not so, or only partly so, I hope that the job can be finished as mentioned in bug #8368. =20 > > FWIW, the NEWS is, I would think, one good place to put > > deprecation notices. If `with-output-to-temp-buffer' is > > deprecated, we should learn in the NEWS that this is the case > > AND what it is replaced by. IOW, tell users how to update their > > code. Likewise for the misnamed hooks etc. > > > > Instead, at least so far, NEWS has only this: > > > > *** New macro `with-temp-buffer-window', similar to > > `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. > > > > That "similar to" might do more harm than help. >=20 > That's life. It is neither fate nor accident, but the result of someone's doing. See above, about people doing their best whether or not it is sufficient. Yes, that is part of life. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 11:25:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.13907354487778 (code B ref 16038); Sun, 26 Jan 2014 11:25:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Jan 2014 11:24:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36151 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W7Not-00021M-FY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 06:24:07 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:57571) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W7Nor-00021E-Bc for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 06:24:06 -0500 Received: from [62.47.61.69] ([62.47.61.69]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lbi2Z-1VSFeZ27J5-00lGtV for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:24:04 +0100 Message-ID: <52E4F050.9010502@gmx.at> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:24:00 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> <52E3EAD0.2070701@gmx.at> <880b4937-a959-496b-9e20-b47f9ba3bce6@default> <52E401A0.1000101@gmx.at> <1da4f1b1-e119-442a-ac9c-f2687a9d1e05@default> In-Reply-To: <1da4f1b1-e119-442a-ac9c-f2687a9d1e05@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:nuzBvJh6Har1ZHz9L2lnUwPJS/c8urTSeQieOpKzPeI3BZdb8Vc xZjttJM9TD37ViwSVqHX4aCxVyc3bj3aHknUGvPmjkelUdxRAfouvAiDht7kXb5adfE/7oA B7EQd996Dz8ynQiOEiLpQE6rh7H0JDVJ8WHdhfCixSA+XArGw0myLvORU0LYURWYUf0V+q1 VSgGKcs6BSH809Smh7qBQ== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) > And just what problem is that? You say there is a problem to > fix in my code. What is the problem? The one from http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=8368#32. > (And what is the fix you > have in mind?) > >> > If bug #8368 is now fixed, great: What code to replace with what >> > code, concretely? >> >> Your code that uses `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. > > Why should that be replaced? And if it should, just what should > it to be replaced with? With `with-temp-buffer-window'. > That is part of deprecating something: > tell users what they should change to what in existing code. E.g., > > (old-foo this that) ==> > (new-bar something-else that 42 (1- this)) > > or whatever. I don't propose to deprecate something. I offer a solution to a problem. > Suggest all you want, if it makes you feel better. Then better don't ask for suggestions. martin From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:53:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139075873323392 (code B ref 16038); Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:53:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Jan 2014 17:52:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36827 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W7TsS-00065E-Rf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:52:13 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:32171) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W7TsQ-000653-HJ for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 12:52:11 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0QHq8Hh023958 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:52:09 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s0QHq7KB015889 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:52:08 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0QHq7Lv026197; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 17:52:07 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 09:52:08 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> <52E3EAD0.2070701@gmx.at> <880b4937-a959-496b-9e20-b47f9ba3bce6@default> <52E401A0.1000101@gmx.at> <1da4f1b1-e119-442a-ac9c-f2687a9d1e05@default> <52E4F050.9010502@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: <52E4F050.9010502@gmx.at> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) > > And just what problem is that? You say there is a problem to > > fix in my code. What is the problem? >=20 > The one from http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D8368#32. That demo example was not from my code, as you know. It demonstrates bug #8368, showing why it needs to be fixed. And it is still pertinent, AFAIK. > > (And what is the fix you have in mind?) And the fix is? > >> > If bug #8368 is now fixed, great: What code to replace > >> > with what code, concretely? > >> > >> Your code that uses `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. > > > > Why should that be replaced? And if it should, just what > > should it to be replaced with? >=20 > With `with-temp-buffer-window'. How so? Is it a one-one replacement? What about the hooks? If `with-temp-buffer-window' is supposed to be the replacement for `with-output-to-temp-buffer' then that needs to be stated clearly in the NEWS. Including a spec of what the replacement should be for different `with-output-to-temp-buffer' input patterns (formal parameters). And including hook use (correspondences). With any significant differences and limitations pointed out. That is how to help users transition from the old to the new. I imagine that you are well aware of that, but it's perhaps better not to guess. Consider by contrast this NEWS entry, which helps users understand how to use `cl-flet' by pointing out how it differs from (Emacs Lisp) `flet': *** `cl-flet' is not like `flet' (which is deprecated). Instead it obeys the behavior of Common-Lisp's `flet'. In particular, in cl-flet function definitions are lexically scoped, whereas in flet the scoping is dynamic. > > That is part of deprecating something: > > tell users what they should change to what in existing > > code. E.g., > > (old-foo this that) =3D=3D> > > (new-bar something-else that 42 (1- this)) > > or whatever. >=20 > I don't propose to deprecate something. It seems to me that that is part of what bug #16038, and this discussion, are about. It is also part of what bug #8368 is about. You ask us to reread #8368, to guess how your new macro responds to that bug. That bug speaks specifically about deprecating `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. And in that context the deprecation would involve a simple renaming (one-one). > I offer a solution to a problem. What is the solution, beyond chanting the mantra `with-temp-buffer-window'? What `with-output-to-temp-buffer' patterns map to what `with-temp-buffer-window' patterns? What about the various hooks? > >> Maybe Leo would have started to do that if you had not > >> interfered. I suggest you apologize and consult with him > >> on how to proceed on this matter. > > > Suggest all you want, if it makes you feel better. But I > > do not feel that I interfered in any way. Nor do I think > > I have anything to apologize for. >=20 > Then better don't ask for suggestions. No one asked for ad hominem, off-the-wall "suggestions". Of course, you elided your actual suggestion (restored here), as well as what I said about it (restored here), giving the impression that it might have actually been a helpful, technical suggestion that I objected to when I said, "Suggest all you want". From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 08:22:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.139081088125073 (code B ref 16038); Mon, 27 Jan 2014 08:22:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jan 2014 08:21:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37325 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W7hRZ-0006WJ-1W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 03:21:21 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.20]:63471) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W7hRW-0006WA-2b for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 03:21:18 -0500 Received: from [62.47.55.74] ([62.47.55.74]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MYfre-1VlEb90lNa-00VSkV for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 09:21:17 +0100 Message-ID: <52E616F6.7090804@gmx.at> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 09:21:10 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> <52E3EAD0.2070701@gmx.at> <880b4937-a959-496b-9e20-b47f9ba3bce6@default> <52E401A0.1000101@gmx.at> <1da4f1b1-e119-442a-ac9c-f2687a9d1e05@default> <52E4F050.9010502@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:W9SyNWyAiZhtViS6a2e7E5l23wxsZORt3zNqi5zkLpne9fCq/V4 rIlqmT8TBgz1+cVhGG904z4ggF9iP19QzmrPPCvc5CyQnAbFL4Uel7llO2NbGe47BmAcRYB XM+pCpNkyEBw9L6+XZMR8IjYFVt1J81hOH7CEyrbBPWuslLe4zq0fe0l8QUr04dBQS+vxmG 4yDySc+iyGReQxwEDwcRQ== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) >> > And just what problem is that? You say there is a problem to >> > fix in my code. What is the problem? >> >> The one from http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=8368#32. > > That demo example was not from my code, as you know. It > demonstrates bug #8368, showing why it needs to be fixed. > And it is still pertinent, AFAIK. So this example bears no resemblance to code you ever wrote or run? It's just a hoax to attract the attention of developers to how people could shoot themselves in the foot? Now I understand why no-one else cared. This taught me a lesson ... martin From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: martin rudalics Cc: Leo Liu , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.13908356839685 (code B ref 16038); Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:15:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jan 2014 15:14:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38255 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W7nta-0002W9-FM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 10:14:42 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:50893) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W7ntY-0002W0-4T for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 10:14:40 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0RFEc9I020009 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:14:39 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0RFEc46005400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:14:38 GMT Received: from abhmp0011.oracle.com (abhmp0011.oracle.com [141.146.116.17]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0RFEbGc018546; Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:14:38 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0d097edc-fcc0-4e64-81af-f55c11c79226@default> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2014 07:14:37 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <90f208e1-9ab5-4b8c-9e4c-2dddf8c1868b@default> <52E28AAF.2030803@gmx.at> <52E38209.6080506@gmx.at> <52E3EAD0.2070701@gmx.at> <880b4937-a959-496b-9e20-b47f9ba3bce6@default> <52E401A0.1000101@gmx.at> <1da4f1b1-e119-442a-ac9c-f2687a9d1e05@default> <52E4F050.9010502@gmx.at> <52E616F6.7090804@gmx.at> In-Reply-To: <52E616F6.7090804@gmx.at> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) > >>> And just what problem is that? You say there is a problem to > >>> fix in my code. What is the problem? > >> > >> The one from > >> http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D8368#32. > > > > That demo example was not from my code, as you know. It > > demonstrates bug #8368, showing why it needs to be fixed. > > And it is still pertinent, AFAIK. >=20 > So this example bears no resemblance to code you ever wrote or run? > It's just a hoax to attract the attention of developers to how > people could shoot themselves in the foot? Now I understand why > no-one else cared. This taught me a lesson ... What are you on about, Martin? That example underlines, in a simple way, the mismatch between `with-output-to-temp-buffer', which is only for help buffers, and "with output to a temporary buffer", which its name suggests. That's all. It is entirely germain to the bug. It is a trivial, minimal example pointing out some of the problems described in the bug report: (defun foo () "..." (with-output-to-temp-buffer "*TEMP*" (princ "FOOO\n---\n\n"))) (foo) C-x b *TEMP* TAB Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "No buttons!") And no, I do not use `with-output-to-temp-buffer' that way in my code. I know enough not to expect that it does what it says, and to use it only for a help buffer. That does not change the fact that the name is misleading and that Emacs could benefit from a real "with output to a temporary buffer", in addition to this misnamed macro, which is really "with output to a help buffer". It's not a hoax. It's a bug report. Whether no one besides me cares is their choice. But I suspect that someone does care, since you have gone to some trouble to write a new macro and there is now some talk (even if you say it is not from you) in favor of deprecating the name `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. Wrt such a possible deprecation: let's do it right. That's all. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Glenn Morris Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 01:55:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: martin rudalics , Stefan Monnier , 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.140478448015646 (code B ref 16038); Tue, 08 Jul 2014 01:55:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2014 01:54:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46353 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X4KcB-00044H-SM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Jul 2014 21:54:40 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:41395 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X4Kc8-000445-OZ for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Jul 2014 21:54:37 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X4Kc7-0007Tx-SV; Mon, 07 Jul 2014 21:54:35 -0400 From: Glenn Morris References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> X-Spook: Bellcore SAPO Defcon satellite imagery North Korea Putin X-Ran: (Cr@m^qnlD&$q=)T92&T>;g{|r[E,;yEg@)b*V(Gr)2z0R'?N]T}>P(J2J!a\;+S91QLc5 X-Hue: white X-Attribution: GM Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2014 21:54:35 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Leo Liu's message of "Tue, 14 Jan 2014 08:23:18 +0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) Leo Liu wrote: > Could we remove the following two add-hooks? > > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) > (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- If you want to do this (I know you already did...), you need to add an incompatible change entry to NEWS about this, and you need to audit every single use of with-output-to-temp-buffer to find the ones that expected their output buffers to be in help mode. Which I guess would be, umm, all of them? The first one I tried: emacs -Q -f report-emacs-bug *Bug Help* buffer is in Help mode in 24.3.92, and fundamental in trunk. Does it actually matter in that case? Maybe not, but the buffer was clearly intended te be in help mode. And here's a case where it definitely does matter http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=17966 (This report has become rather long; I hope it doesn't get too much longer.) From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Glenn Morris Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 02:05:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.140478508821554 (code B ref 16038); Tue, 08 Jul 2014 02:05:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2014 02:04:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46366 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X4Km0-0005bZ-4Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Jul 2014 22:04:48 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:41530 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X4Klw-0005bP-VO for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Jul 2014 22:04:45 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X4Klw-0005To-91; Mon, 07 Jul 2014 22:04:44 -0400 From: Glenn Morris References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> X-Spook: Merlin FSF INSCOM bank ISEC 64 Vauxhall Cross target X-Ran: C)~LqLT@#:?J4TpCJ'=[>vL#[#G$OLDU=9/h|?wx]OI`*:}ohidLj( (Glenn Morris's message of "Mon, 07 Jul 2014 21:54:35 -0400") Message-ID: <47simcy5ab.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) Glenn Morris wrote: > Leo Liu wrote: > >> Could we remove the following two add-hooks? >> >> >> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- >> (add-hook 'temp-buffer-setup-hook 'help-mode-setup) >> (add-hook 'temp-buffer-show-hook 'help-mode-finish) >> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > If you want to do this (I know you already did...), you need to add an > incompatible change entry to NEWS about this, and you need to audit > every single use of with-output-to-temp-buffer to find the ones that > expected their output buffers to be in help mode. And of course you need to update the documentation too. (Are you sure this is worth it?) From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Glenn Morris Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 06:00:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.140479915018139 (code B ref 16038); Tue, 08 Jul 2014 06:00:03 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2014 05:59:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46469 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X4OQn-0004iU-QI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 01:59:10 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:45303 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X4OQl-0004iJ-TC for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 01:59:08 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X4OQl-0006gh-7h; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 01:59:07 -0400 From: Glenn Morris References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <47simcy5ab.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Spook: [Hello to all my friends and fans in domestic X-Ran: >6omHBggW&8RumW]A#3=`0@[/qPK#UaP'4Dt0O|HlT_c9UH X-Hue: blue X-Attribution: GM Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 01:59:07 -0400 In-Reply-To: <47simcy5ab.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> (Glenn Morris's message of "Mon, 07 Jul 2014 22:04:44 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) PS personally I'd advise you to just revert this change. Read the description of with-output-to-temp-buffer in the elisp manual. As we showed with vc-annotate, it behaved like that "for ever". The help-mode thing is an integral part of what it does. AFAICS, you didn't really say why you want to change this. If you don't like the hooks being non-empty by default, you could perhaps move that code to the body. If you don't like the association of "temp buffer" and help, think of it as with-output-to-temp-help-buffer, if that makes you happier. From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 13:58:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Glenn Morris , Leo Liu Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.140482784416446 (code B ref 16038); Tue, 08 Jul 2014 13:58:01 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2014 13:57:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47036 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X4VtX-0004H5-LI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 09:57:23 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:37965) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X4VtR-0004Gc-5o for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 09:57:17 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s68Dv5KN005588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 8 Jul 2014 13:57:06 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s68Dv4Dw012897 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 8 Jul 2014 13:57:05 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s68Dv4Jb025602; Tue, 8 Jul 2014 13:57:04 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <03343dd1-186a-44b3-b459-dea7a45a4d04@default> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 06:57:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> <47simcy5ab.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) > PS personally I'd advise you to just revert this change. > Read the description of with-output-to-temp-buffer in the elisp manual. > As we showed with vc-annotate, it behaved like that "for ever". > The help-mode thing is an integral part of what it does. >=20 > AFAICS, you didn't really say why you want to change this. > If you don't like the hooks being non-empty by default, > you could perhaps move that code to the body. >=20 > If you don't like the association of "temp buffer" and help, think of it > as with-output-to-temp-help-buffer, if that makes you happier. Which is what I argued in the original thread(s): the name is misleading - nothing more. The macro is (was, before this change) about a help buffer, not about an arbitrary temporary buffer. The right way to make the desired change is to introduce a new, non-help-mode-related macro and use that where desired, not to gratuitously change the behavior of the longstanding macro `with-output-to-temp-buffer'. (And preferably rename the latter using defalias, so that the new name indicates that it is about help mode - e.g., `with-output-to-temp-help-buffer'.) As just one user, this unfortunate change caused me to make version-adjusting code to handle it, in multiple libraries of mine. Not a big deal, but it should not have been necessary at all. However, Glenn, it seems this was already decided, with Eli, Stefan, and Martin unpersuaded by my (and apparently your) argument. Ref: bugs 8368, 17109, 17397, 17146 (and 16038) From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Leo Liu Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 22:25:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Glenn Morris Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.140485827024656 (code B ref 16038); Tue, 08 Jul 2014 22:25:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2014 22:24:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47368 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X4doL-0006PZ-Pt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 18:24:30 -0400 Received: from mail-pd0-f169.google.com ([209.85.192.169]:56758) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X4doJ-0006PD-FL for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 18:24:28 -0400 Received: by mail-pd0-f169.google.com with SMTP id ft15so1096920pdb.28 for <16038@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 15:24:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:face:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=iU5EvqM1jxL1lQeWxKDyhgUy6oV+TBNlwOHei4rxvTc=; b=Wg3VKJE3ynLwsDH+SoEttmaIaIWEjIrfKLvMym4jD+AYqLc1+BpqVSATIJa6dHRLN5 GNeTw1UMQuY83gyy6fBGb8fxz/OhKlgpgaCSHAsSkLO6URd+o/Q3SE/o95isa1wEsqvf JqnQR5ea7ZfSGcImQjs0LroPBHzLTt4hKKNcc9aGhAQlhI/C4In6DTs6n+wcPSNyAsnd oALDYdNJEohJOYbMnNUVnF2I6DDPhQFlJNSoc9lqZLgM6gvG7vhXgFf8NZ7VAcj3EQuw 5elWGdkPqkGQevl41S2vR1rdcXYM6Ve8x2EEE+SMPHkZMtdPAz6+CuvqVLZPFfV8fdxC j6Eg== X-Received: by 10.70.90.7 with SMTP id bs7mr4854722pdb.141.1404858261403; Tue, 08 Jul 2014 15:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fortuna ([114.248.248.222]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id oc3sm25789134pdb.45.2014.07.08.15.24.19 for (version=TLSv1.1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 08 Jul 2014 15:24:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Leo Liu References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACkAAAApAQAAAACAGz1bAAABKElEQVQYlWNg3NIt5FDPUPt7 4+X79Qyucz5/ugik+L2PBgKpyphaIK921q23QDnG0NBQoMr/vaWl9f8ZLL78uPv5PwN7RETfzXoG jhmFz27XM0RXmpuY/WfY+fv0Mc56BvFybfXA/wwL5t/wF61n2PU59axXPcOVzbmSW/8zrNt1benC /ww70hqUU/4zKCtrT9jwn8FhwynbufUMendE2aLqGRpdX9al1zM8eh17lKeeQcTMrdD5P8P3j/YT Q/8zXHSb7p1Qz/C4OM2JuZ7hgtI7K6AjqsMnf8j4z8C6xG1tw3+GqpqvsVn/GTzmpD9j/8/wP/oZ S/l/Bka+QO/g/wy15ueeFQL9N1O8mPU/g+umV3t1gdT0/1bTgHLqYVeXAlWKpMWt+w8Az82C9nHf X0cAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2014 06:24:16 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Mon, 07 Jul 2014 21:54:35 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (CentOS 6.5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) On 2014-07-07 21:54 -0400, Glenn Morris wrote: > If you want to do this (I know you already did...), you need to add an > incompatible change entry to NEWS about this, and you need to audit > every single use of with-output-to-temp-buffer to find the ones that > expected their output buffers to be in help mode. We made that change to prove the above two lines cause no harm other than not enabling help-mode. At some stage and probably pretty soon, we might merge the two macros with-output-to-temp-buffer and with-temp-buffer-window under one name (the former looks like a simple case of the latter). So the change is intermediate. Leo From unknown Sun Jun 15 08:48:03 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#16038: 24.3; latest change to with-help-window makes temp-buffer-browse useless Resent-From: Glenn Morris Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 07:21:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16038 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Leo Liu Cc: 16038@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 16038-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16038.140497686025437 (code B ref 16038); Thu, 10 Jul 2014 07:21:02 +0000 Received: (at 16038) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Jul 2014 07:21:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51646 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X58f5-0006cC-MY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 03:21:00 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:38008 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1X58f4-0006c4-14 for 16038@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 03:20:58 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1X58f2-0001WY-Sl; Thu, 10 Jul 2014 03:20:56 -0400 From: Glenn Morris References: <52D14E9F.5030001@gmx.at> <52D16627.4080604@gmx.at> <52D2661A.4000105@gmx.at> X-Spook: Reno doctrine halcon David John Oates Exon Shell Vickie X-Ran: 'v#W_P\3vSm,S@#h8gq\4#C/!lvo)./4Va (Leo Liu's message of "Wed, 09 Jul 2014 06:24:16 +0800") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) Leo Liu wrote: > On 2014-07-07 21:54 -0400, Glenn Morris wrote: > >> If you want to do this (I know you already did...), you need to add an >> incompatible change entry to NEWS about this, and you need to audit >> every single use of with-output-to-temp-buffer to find the ones that >> expected their output buffers to be in help mode. > > We made that change to prove the above two lines cause no harm other > than not enabling help-mode. At some stage and probably pretty soon, we > might merge the two macros with-output-to-temp-buffer and > with-temp-buffer-window under one name (the former looks like a simple > case of the latter). So the change is intermediate. Sorry, this makes no sense to me. with-output-to-temp-buffer is a documented macro with a specific purpose. I shall now do the tedious thing of quoting the manual: This function executes the forms in BODY while arranging to insert any output they print into the buffer named BUFFER-NAME, which is first created if necessary, and put into Help mode. [...] If the forms in BODY do not change the major mode in the output buffer, so that it is still Help mode at the end of their execution, then `with-output-to-temp-buffer' makes this buffer read-only at the end, and also scans it for function and variable names to make them into clickable cross-references. Now it does not do any of that. The normal way to do this kind of thing is to introduce a new macro that does whatever new thing you want, and deprecate the old one. Not to just half-arsedly change the old one to do something else, without updating any of the documentation or callers. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 09 16:30:31 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Aug 2014 20:30:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36759 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XGDHa-0003HU-O0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:30:31 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:43618 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XGDHV-0003HE-HC for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:30:27 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XGDHV-0005DW-8n for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:30:25 -0400 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:30:25 -0400 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 16038 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) forcemerge 17966 16038 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 09 16:30:39 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Aug 2014 20:30:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36762 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XGDHh-0003Hp-Pv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:30:38 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:43621 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XGDHe-0003He-MO for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:30:35 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XGDHe-0005mm-F9 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:30:34 -0400 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:30:34 -0400 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 17109 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) forcemerge 17966 17109