From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:09:05 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#15832 <15832@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#15832 <15832@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 24.3.50; doc of `up-list' and moving by "parens" Reply-To: bug#15832 <15832@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 17:09:05 +0000 retitle 15832 24.3.50; doc of `up-list' and moving by "parens" reassign 15832 emacs submitter 15832 Drew Adams severity 15832 minor thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 07 23:23:28 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Nov 2013 04:23:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40479 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VedbT-0003p6-Oz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:23:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36900) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VedbQ-0003os-KQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:23:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VedbA-0005JJ-U4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:23:19 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:56556) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VedbA-0005JD-R8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:23:08 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38532) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vedb2-0007cO-70 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:23:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vedat-0005Fk-HU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:23:00 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:51285) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vedat-0005Fc-Ak for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2013 23:22:51 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id rA84Mlm2008506 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2013 04:22:49 GMT Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id rA84Mk2I018162 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2013 04:22:47 GMT Received: from abhmt110.oracle.com (abhmt110.oracle.com [141.146.116.62]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id rA84MkNC018154 for ; Fri, 8 Nov 2013 04:22:46 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 20:22:45 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.3.50; doc of `up-list' and moving by "parens" X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) 1. The doc strings of `up-list' and similar commands do not make clear that the movement is not necessarily about parentheses (in spite of the command names). As (emacs) `Moving by Parens' takes care to say, such commands "move over groupings delimited by parentheses (or whatever else serves as delimiters in the language you are working with)." The information in parentheses in this phrase is what is missing from the doc strings. 2. `up-list' should be added to the list of commands mentioned in (emacs) `Moving by Parens'. `down-list' and `backward-up-list' are mentioned, but not `up-list'. Emacs Lisp is a big part of Emacs, yet the only place where `up-list' is mentioned in the Emacs manual is in node `Tex Editing', where it is described as "moving forward past the close brace." `Moving by Parens' is a reasonable place to mention `up-list'. 3. (elisp) `List Motion' mentions that the syntax table controls which characters are treated like parentheses, which is good. It then cross-references (emacs) `Moving by Parens' "for user-level commands." It is good to cross-reference, but what are described at (elisp) `List Motion' *are* user-level commands, so the characterization "for user-level commands" is confusing and misleading. The cross reference should just say "see also". In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2013-10-19 on LEG570 Bzr revision: 114715 rgm@gnu.org-20131019023520-s8mwtib7xcx9e05w Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --enable-checking 'CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3' CPPFLAGS=3D-DGLYPH_DEBUG= =3D1' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 10 00:51:16 2014 Received: (at 15832) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2014 05:51:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33645 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCjlz-000366-Hy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 00:51:15 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:48508) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCjlw-00035w-Oe for 15832@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 00:51:13 -0500 Received: from [204.14.154.233] (helo=building.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WCjlh-00074g-9Y; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 06:50:57 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#15832: 24.3.50; doc of `up-list' and moving by "parens" References: Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:49:44 -0800 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Thu, 7 Nov 2013 20:22:45 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: <87lhxj7c07.fsf@building.gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13001 (Ma Gnus v0.10) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1WCjlh-00074g-9Y X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1392616258.67521@M0z/GZOEWxz7mvQ2x8bRmA X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15832 Cc: 15832@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Drew Adams writes: > 1. The doc strings of `up-list' and similar commands do not make clear > that the movement is not necessarily about parentheses (in spite of the > command names). As (emacs) `Moving by Parens' takes care to say, such > commands "move over groupings delimited by parentheses (or whatever else > serves as delimiters in the language you are working with)." The > information in parentheses in this phrase is what is missing from the > doc strings. Fixed on trunk. > 2. `up-list' should be added to the list of commands mentioned in > (emacs) `Moving by Parens'. `down-list' and `backward-up-list' are > mentioned, but not `up-list'. `up-list' doesn't have a keyboard definition, which is why it's probably not documented in the Emacs manual. > 3. (elisp) `List Motion' mentions that the syntax table controls which > characters are treated like parentheses, which is good. It then > cross-references (emacs) `Moving by Parens' "for user-level commands." > > It is good to cross-reference, but what are described at (elisp) `List > Motion' *are* user-level commands, so the characterization "for > user-level commands" is confusing and misleading. The cross reference > should just say "see also". The things described in the Emacs manual here are clearly more user-levelish, so I think that's OK. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 10 00:52:04 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2014 05:52:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33649 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCjmm-00037Z-2X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 00:52:04 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:48518) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCjmk-00037Q-Sa for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 00:52:03 -0500 Received: from [204.14.154.233] (helo=building.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WCjmX-00075N-4B for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 06:51:49 +0100 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:50:36 -0800 Message-Id: <87k3d37byr.fsf@building.gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #15832 X-MailScanner-ID: 1WCjmX-00075N-4B X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1392616309.63433@uwiTdLbZ+L/MQH0GeKdz3A X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) close 15832 24.4 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 10 01:11:51 2014 Received: (at 15832) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2014 06:11:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33737 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCk5u-0004vb-Sa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 01:11:51 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:24024) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCk5s-0004vS-SZ for 15832@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 01:11:49 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s1A6Bj55004921 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 10 Feb 2014 06:11:48 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s1A6Bi0N006470 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 10 Feb 2014 06:11:45 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s1A6Bisu020382; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 06:11:44 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1059c795-dd53-41f9-95cb-fadf04df4008@default> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 22:11:42 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: RE: bug#15832: 24.3.50; doc of `up-list' and moving by "parens" References: <87lhxj7c07.fsf@building.gnus.org> In-Reply-To: <87lhxj7c07.fsf@building.gnus.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15832 Cc: 15832@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > > 2. `up-list' should be added to the list of commands mentioned in > > (emacs) `Moving by Parens'. `down-list' and `backward-up-list' > > are mentioned, but not `up-list'. >=20 > `up-list' doesn't have a keyboard definition, which is why it's > probably not documented in the Emacs manual. It should still be mentioned. > > 3. (elisp) `List Motion' mentions that the syntax table controls > > which characters are treated like parentheses, which is good. > > It then cross-references (emacs) `Moving by Parens' "for > > user-level commands." > > > > It is good to cross-reference, but what are described at (elisp) > > `List Motion' *are* user-level commands, so the characterization > > "for user-level commands" is confusing and misleading. The cross > > reference should just say "see also". >=20 > The things described in the Emacs manual here are clearly more > user-levelish, so I think that's OK. If you want to say "for information about OTHER user-level commands" or "for more information about these user-level commands" (depending on which is meant), that would be fine, but as it stands now it is confusing and misleading, giving the impression that what are described here might NOT be user-level commands. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:09:05 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug No longer marked as fixed in versions 24.4 and reopened. Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 06:13:02 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug No longer marked as fixed in versions 24.4 and reopened. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 10 02:55:01 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2014 07:55:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33922 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WClhk-0005D0-6L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 02:55:00 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:56007) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WClhh-0005Cl-GI for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 02:54:57 -0500 Received: from [204.14.154.233] (helo=building.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WClhP-000168-ED for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 08:54:39 +0100 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2014 23:53:26 -0800 Message-Id: <871tzb1k09.fsf@building.gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #15832 X-MailScanner-ID: 1WClhP-000168-ED X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1392623680.5798@i0icFD8o6OaHR4QeWU0C+Q X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) close 15832 From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:09:05 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:24:10 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator