From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 05 10:40:31 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Nov 2013 15:40:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35923 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vdik2-0004Ft-P0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 10:40:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:52324) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vdik0-0004Fd-NA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 10:40:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vdijl-0002z7-Iq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 10:40:23 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:53801) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vdijl-0002z3-Gi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 10:40:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53949) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vdijc-0000mi-MB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 10:40:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VdijU-0002av-30 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 10:40:04 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:37369) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VdijT-0002ai-QQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 10:39:55 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id rA5FdsA7008916 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 15:39:55 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id rA5Fdrxs024170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 15:39:54 GMT Received: from abhmt113.oracle.com (abhmt113.oracle.com [141.146.116.65]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id rA5FdrEm012059 for ; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 15:39:53 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6e7c805d-a5fe-499b-9a1c-e0ee1e81dec9@default> Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 07:39:52 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.3.50; inappropriate text in (emacs) `Echo Area' X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) This text has no business being there: (We have not explained buffers yet; see *note Buffers::, for more information about them.) (We have not explained variables either; see *note Variables::, for more information about them.) Include the cross references, but drop the unhelpful commentary. This text seems based on an assumption that reading is linear, from page 1 to the current page. This was not true back in the 1980s, when Info was created, and it certainly is not true today. Reserve such text (if at all) for the printed manual. In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2013-10-19 on LEG570 Bzr revision: 114715 rgm@gnu.org-20131019023520-s8mwtib7xcx9e05w Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --enable-checking 'CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3' CPPFLAGS=3D-DGLYPH_DEBUG= =3D1' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 05 11:55:52 2013 Received: (at 15810-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Nov 2013 16:55:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36053 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vdjuw-0006AG-Ax for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 11:55:51 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:42172) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Vdjur-00069x-Mc for 15810-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 11:55:47 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MVS00C00UQB7300@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 15810-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 18:55:38 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MVS00CUHV0Q3O50@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 18:55:38 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 18:55:36 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#15810: 24.3.50; inappropriate text in (emacs) `Echo Area' In-reply-to: <6e7c805d-a5fe-499b-9a1c-e0ee1e81dec9@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <831u2u94af.fsf@gnu.org> References: <6e7c805d-a5fe-499b-9a1c-e0ee1e81dec9@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15810-done Cc: 15810-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 07:39:52 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > > This text has no business being there: > > (We have not explained buffers yet; see *note Buffers::, > for more information about them.) It is appropriate for when the manual is read as a book, linearly. > (We have not > explained variables either; see *note Variables::, for more information > about them.) Irrelevant. This is not a bug, closing. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 05 12:14:46 2013 Received: (at 15810) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Nov 2013 17:14:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36072 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VdkDG-0006g7-Iv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 12:14:46 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:39463) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VdkDD-0006fo-MA for 15810@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 12:14:44 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id rA5HEbhw011059 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:14:37 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id rA5HEaSV000629 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:14:36 GMT Received: from abhmt113.oracle.com (abhmt113.oracle.com [141.146.116.65]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id rA5HEaXT019842; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:14:36 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <8439332c-eb08-4dc1-bed9-c947baa68903@default> Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 09:14:35 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#15810: 24.3.50; inappropriate text in (emacs) `Echo Area' References: <<6e7c805d-a5fe-499b-9a1c-e0ee1e81dec9@default>> <<831u2u94af.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<831u2u94af.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15810 Cc: 15810@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > This text has no business being there: > > > > (We have not explained buffers yet; see *note Buffers::, > > for more information about them.) >=20 > It is appropriate for when the manual is read as a book, linearly. It is unnecessary in that rare case. And it is inappropriate in the far more common (in fact, typical) case: when the passage is not read after reading all of the text linearly, starting from page one. Read the bug report, which says that it is not appropriate for the *hypertext* manual. Leave it in for the printed manual, if you like (though even there it is not needed - a forward cross reference should stand on its own). > (We have not explained variables either; see *note Variables::, > for more information about them.) > > Irrelevant. What is irrelevant? The quoted text from the manual? Yes, except for the cross reference it is irrelevant - no, worse, it is misleading and can confuse. > This is not a bug, closing. It is a bug. Such text simply does not belong in hypertext doc. The cross references should remain. The verbiage about your not having explained XXXX yet is not appropriate for hypertext doc. (And you should know that by now.) Reopening. From unknown Sat Aug 16 21:15:34 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 17:20:02 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 05 12:20:49 2013 Received: (at 15810-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Nov 2013 17:20:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36096 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VdkJ4-0006qf-OY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 12:20:47 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:45174 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VdkJ0-0006qR-G6 for 15810-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 12:20:43 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VdkIx-0001fp-DK; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 12:20:40 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: 15810-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#15810: 24.3.50; inappropriate text in (emacs) `Echo Area' References: <6e7c805d-a5fe-499b-9a1c-e0ee1e81dec9@default>> <831u2u94af.fsf@gnu.org>> <8439332c-eb08-4dc1-bed9-c947baa68903@default> X-Spook: Islam Abduganievich Karimov Indigo S Key MIT-LL UOP X-Ran: OBE>wJK_QPCg73v/"2@TB1ezN9m!U~khazOFCOE*5Q>qwJS>]2UO: X-Hue: cyan X-Attribution: GM Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 12:20:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: <8439332c-eb08-4dc1-bed9-c947baa68903@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 5 Nov 2013 09:14:35 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15810-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Drew Adams wrote: Blah, blah, blah, listen to my opinions. > Reopening. Stop wasting our time with your trivial obsessions. Why anyone continues to put up with this rubbish is beyond me. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 05 12:20:51 2013 Received: (at 15810-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Nov 2013 17:20:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36098 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VdkJ8-0006qr-Mq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 12:20:51 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:54273) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VdkJ1-0006q4-MC for 15810-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 12:20:45 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MVS00200W337H00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 15810-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 19:20:37 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MVS001HWW6DXM80@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 19:20:37 +0200 (IST) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 19:20:35 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#15810: 24.3.50; inappropriate text in (emacs) `Echo Area' In-reply-to: <8439332c-eb08-4dc1-bed9-c947baa68903@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83vc067okc.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8439332c-eb08-4dc1-bed9-c947baa68903@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15810-done Cc: 15810-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 09:14:35 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 15810@debbugs.gnu.org > > Reopening. Reclosing. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 05 14:31:05 2013 Received: (at 15810) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Nov 2013 19:31:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36200 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VdmL9-0003jI-T0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 14:31:04 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.182]:31737) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VdmL7-0003bW-8N for 15810@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Nov 2013 14:31:01 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EABK/CFFFxLzd/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh8BBVYjEAs0EhQYDSSIJLEfkA6RCgOIYZwZgV6DFQ X-IPAS-Result: Av8EABK/CFFFxLzd/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh8BBVYjEAs0EhQYDSSIJLEfkA6RCgOIYZwZgV6DFQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="37157289" Received: from 69-196-188-221.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.188.221]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 05 Nov 2013 14:30:55 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 6322960109; Tue, 5 Nov 2013 14:30:55 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#15810: 24.3.50; inappropriate text in (emacs) `Echo Area' Message-ID: References: <6e7c805d-a5fe-499b-9a1c-e0ee1e81dec9@default> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 14:30:55 -0500 In-Reply-To: <6e7c805d-a5fe-499b-9a1c-e0ee1e81dec9@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 5 Nov 2013 07:39:52 -0800 (PST)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15810 Cc: 15810@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) Drew, Please get yourself a bzr checkout of the tree, ask for write access to the repository, and fix those issues. We'll all live much happier this way, Stefan PS: One of the last times I suggested it, you replied something along the lines that you can't do that. I don't buy it. Maybe you can't do it from your work computer, but I'm sure you can get access to the Internet outside of your work, and if you only have computers from your work, then send me your address and I'll send you a laptop you can use for Emacs hacking. From unknown Sat Aug 16 21:15:34 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator