From unknown Tue Aug 19 10:03:06 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#15343: 24.3.50; Document window point better in Emacs manual Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:01:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 15343 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 15343@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.137891166016471 (code B ref -1); Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:01:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Sep 2013 15:01:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55836 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VJlud-0004Hb-En for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 11:00:59 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:39172) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VJlub-0004HN-FY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 11:00:58 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VJluO-0004Yx-2E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 11:00:52 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:59716) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VJluN-0004Yq-VC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 11:00:43 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40822) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VJluG-0007H4-Jw for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 11:00:43 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VJlu9-0004Wz-9q for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 11:00:36 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:30283) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VJlu9-0004Wd-3m for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 11:00:29 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r8BF0RrC021447 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:00:28 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r8BF0QKl021249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:00:26 GMT Received: from abhmt111.oracle.com (abhmt111.oracle.com [141.146.116.63]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r8BF0Quo012472 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:00:26 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <19c3183a-6e69-4627-b004-db572034f873@default> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 08:00:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) The concept of point is fundamental to Emacs, and it is introduced in (emacs) `Point'. However, users sometimes get confused because multiple windows for the same buffer have different notions of point: the window point. This concept is hardly presented in the Emacs manual, AFAICT. The most that is said is this, which is easily missed in (emacs) `Point': Furthermore, if a buffer is displayed in multiple windows, each of those windows has its own value of point. Great, but what are the consequences of that? In particular, what are some gotchas that might confuse users? I don't have a great suggestion of what the improvement might be, but I think something more is needed to dispel or prevent this confusion. Perhaps an example, to illustrate the notion and the possible confusion. This problem report comes to mind in this regard. Dunno whether the problem reported here is really due to confusion about `window-point', but I can see such a problem possibly coming from such confusion. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18734850/point-moves-when-switching-buff= ers-in-emacs-aquamacs/18744622#18744622 In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2013-08-31 on ODIEONE Bzr revision: 114088 rgm@gnu.org-20130901021232-sazo0qla2qgcko95 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/Devel/emacs/binary --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3' LDFLAGS=3D-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib CPPFLAGS=3D-Ic:/Devel/emacs/include' From unknown Tue Aug 19 10:03:06 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#15343: 24.3.50; Document window point better in Emacs manual Resent-From: Jambunathan K Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 07:08:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 15343 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 15343@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 15343-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B15343.137905603220108 (code B ref 15343); Fri, 13 Sep 2013 07:08:02 +0000 Received: (at 15343) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2013 07:07:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60614 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VKNTD-0005EF-4j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 03:07:11 -0400 Received: from mail-pd0-f177.google.com ([209.85.192.177]:48232) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VKNT8-0005DX-36 for 15343@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 03:07:07 -0400 Received: by mail-pd0-f177.google.com with SMTP id y10so867539pdj.36 for <15343@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 00:06:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:user-agent:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=m65k0ls0HBwdWUt0AeQIUz9dzDucSlg3xaIuokxSerM=; b=n1W5o9wUq+HEYZNKT+AYGFoJpil4B5vRgVd2N1XEm3YVC6ZNdzHm+2/l+/rEpdIOJN HyldzTeGm4gQrWlvDvOZTGP+jOApY6sSBkBxW5mkRpGp0yLPq8mKgumb+0CSbfBz1iKW FSNpj8s7lZdxEaFGZ55ega+rn+ZAm9eA1p2N0uFtTtscuwBVQWYxsNq+D2xGeHGZ2NOz oM05W0072lSY3yfbxUSGenOJGrsKvKhfjcRH8nnzPQjcPExGH7juVt6y5qoEInwRczWJ YWqwFYvRwKQdsjl0XrZuTgCE4HuGITjky26Ub2cIeJmTKxBjqLg5BQqaydeoKVqwbm/p DusQ== X-Received: by 10.66.152.102 with SMTP id ux6mr13420297pab.79.1379056019872; Fri, 13 Sep 2013 00:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from porunai ([115.242.146.7]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id fl3sm15905753pad.10.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1.1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 13 Sep 2013 00:06:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Jambunathan K In-Reply-To: <19c3183a-6e69-4627-b004-db572034f873@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 11 Sep 2013 08:00:25 -0700 (PDT)") References: <19c3183a-6e69-4627-b004-db572034f873@default> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 12:39:19 +0530 Message-ID: <877gelp59c.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) > Furthermore, if a buffer is displayed in multiple windows, each of > those windows has its own value of point. For the sake of record, http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=14486 I have "permitted" the bug to be closed because I felt that would be the most expedient thing to do. I do think that hitting a developer with clue-bat would help. (Even if hitting him, leaves him as clue-less and help-less as before) ---------------------------------------------------------------- I believe most people start with * Emacs Lisp Intro: (eintr). The tutorial of that nature has no reasons to emphasize that there are multiple points (so to speak). Now once people become reasonably proficient, they continue to harbour a sub-conscious model that there is only one point. I think simple hyperlinking between the nodes will help bring out the nuance. ---------------------------------------------------------------- From unknown Tue Aug 19 10:03:06 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#15343: 24.3.50; Document window point better in Emacs manual Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2014 04:32:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 15343 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 15343@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 15343-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B15343.139183386220131 (code B ref 15343); Sat, 08 Feb 2014 04:32:01 +0000 Received: (at 15343) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2014 04:31:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55945 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WBzZF-0005Db-Ij for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 23:31:02 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:36502) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WBzZD-0005Au-It for 15343@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 23:31:00 -0500 Received: from [204.14.154.233] (helo=building.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WBzYz-00051F-Er; Sat, 08 Feb 2014 05:30:45 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <19c3183a-6e69-4627-b004-db572034f873@default> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 20:29:37 -0800 In-Reply-To: <19c3183a-6e69-4627-b004-db572034f873@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 11 Sep 2013 08:00:25 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <878utm5iry.fsf@building.gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13001 (Ma Gnus v0.10) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1WBzYz-00051F-Er X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1392438646.04183@nogWA0spI2cY9WJi7OBfpg X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Drew Adams writes: > The concept of point is fundamental to Emacs, and it is introduced in > (emacs) `Point'. However, users sometimes get confused because multiple > windows for the same buffer have different notions of point: the window > point. This concept is hardly presented in the Emacs manual, AFAICT. > The most that is said is this, which is easily missed in (emacs) > `Point': > > Furthermore, if a buffer is displayed in multiple windows, each of > those windows has its own value of point. > > Great, but what are the consequences of that? In particular, what are > some gotchas that might confuse users? Uhm... I think that it's pretty clear. Closing. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 07 23:31:08 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2014 04:31:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55948 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WBzZL-0005J3-FO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 23:31:08 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:36508) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WBzZJ-0005Gr-75 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Feb 2014 23:31:05 -0500 Received: from [204.14.154.233] (helo=building.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WBzZ5-00051Q-9r for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 08 Feb 2014 05:30:51 +0100 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 20:29:43 -0800 Message-Id: <877g965irs.fsf@building.gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #15343 X-MailScanner-ID: 1WBzZ5-00051Q-9r X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1392438652.07452@oWSjQI1WqhYahHzgEh42XA X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) close 15343