From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 14 13:23:15 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Aug 2013 17:23:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58477 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9emw-00081l-OA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:23:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:41332) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9eFv-00071g-5h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:49:08 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9eFj-0005th-8E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:49:01 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:56335) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9eFj-0005tH-59 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:48:55 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43006) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9eFc-00008E-2o for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:48:55 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9eFV-0005ad-Rw for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:48:47 -0400 Received: from nm16-vm3.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([216.39.63.74]:41575) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V9eFV-0005a1-GB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:48:41 -0400 Received: from [216.39.60.166] by nm16.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2013 16:48:39 -0000 Received: from [98.138.84.212] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2013 16:48:38 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp101.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2013 16:48:38 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 826821.27385.bm@smtp101.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: 1Q.mlHsVM1l.6JiDsSNfvVc9Oqh8.zqqamVXqrXzNMQ6yZG _7VczMYIuldNAZTf1dopOrhmESko_J3SLBOj5j4S5beJ.rgOeAb8ho0ne.kQ Ye3P_MYbhx1e3OgGXaGEUwu8Zeg9pKns8oA9pxRtllB8_25_rz5IYbmGquuX VZO0IrSwn8voc8QJinrjKK4garSNeiqNH9ipEd4odzuB8pG3.rsNEMb1Zdfk .AomPC6IxGBjD3BnoxOocHrS_noPCqPXkUAt01nJR9ku3gTwfc.PLs8i3XsR pxSKsgurt8piINaQntLO6.g1B4G1m5QGEZoqAk624sW1Sinj2OuD0l8VY.WN v0Xb4Lbu1yuWSDgfB5xdLB5b6nKYNUsEwybbdCner880jfdZbs406u8JNNTq 6VY6jBcxQfAH0PrA3q.fPklcvM2X8raIgWhvihUUc4xlFFnr7XvWvRotITeL yGSjWrXrlO1EYM_.6bIdavVC9Ve8_3URynxY2HBkxI8jSDJq.cb7EBVs75q6 61dhIOuJlVQl6YYXgBCjScz6uFxsoyzzOCGshe28RAB0Yjd9aoA6K7dK9Gkh tx.cNfgprbFfoqdcF7lSPOPTnfqRqFZBtt4.WTYpibB3ejA8GmHciri.MhiB FUT7lB_B4wBhBULPB_60vnhs_wb2ryaSJACSEk_Mlqzms X-Yahoo-SMTP: hZyeSdyswBAntTRwE4iHeNvlTr4tnw.ghKUIbT6L X-Rocket-Received: from abbey.wistly.net (carson@108.131.107.160 with plain) by smtp101.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Aug 2013 09:48:38 -0700 PDT Received: from localhost (1000@localhost [local]); by abbey.wistly.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 8da1386b; for ; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:48:37 -0500 (CDT) User-Agent: OpenSMTPD enqueuer (Demoosh) From: Carson Chittom To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:48:37 -0500 Message-ID: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 9.x X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -3.4 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:23:13 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.4 (---) This bug report is regarding the usability of the menu system. The "Tools" menu has three options for mail/news: - Read Net News (Gnus) - Read Mail (RMAIL) - Send Mail (with Gnus Message) C-x m Any user new to Emacs would, reasonably in my view, ask, "Why do I read Net News with Gnus and send mail with Gnus Message (is that different from just Gnus?) but read mail with RMAIL?" My recommendation is to eliminate a specific "Send Mail" menu item, since I think most people think of reading and sending mail together as a single task. We'd then have two items, something like: - Read/Send Mail & Net News (Gnus) - Read/Send Mail (RMAIL) In GNU Emacs 24.2.1 (x86_64-unknown-openbsd, GTK+ Version 2.24.14) of 2013-02-26 on amd64.ports.openbsd.org Configured using: `configure '--build=amd64-unknown-openbsd' '--without-compress-info' '--with-x-toolkit=gtk' '--prefix=/usr/local' '--sysconfdir=/etc' '--mandir=/usr/local/man' '--infodir=/usr/local/info' '--localstatedir=/var' '--disable-silent-rules' 'build_alias=amd64-unknown-openbsd' 'CC=cc' 'CFLAGS=-O2 -pipe -fno-pie' 'LDFLAGS=-L/usr/local/lib -nopie' 'CPPFLAGS=-I/usr/local/include -I/usr/local/include/libpng -DHAVE_SOUND'' Important settings: value of $LC_ALL: nil value of $LC_COLLATE: nil value of $LC_CTYPE: nil value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil value of $LC_MONETARY: nil value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil value of $LC_TIME: nil value of $LANG: nil value of $XMODIFIERS: nil locale-coding-system: nil default enable-multibyte-characters: t Major mode: Lisp Interaction Minor modes in effect: tooltip-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t menu-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t line-number-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t Recent input: i g h t l y SPC m o r e SPC c o m p l i c a t e d , SPC s i n c e SPC i t SPC g i v e s SPC a SPC r e s o DEL DEL a s o n a b l e SPC DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL : SPC SPC I SPC g o t SPC " p e r m i s s i o n SPC d e n i e d " SPC o n SPC W i n d o w s , SPC b u t SPC C-c k C-x k RET y e s RET ESC [ 5 ~ ESC [ 5 ~ c y RET RET SPC SPC SPC ESC O B ESC O A SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC ESC O B RET SPC SPC SPC SPC ESC O B RET ESC O B RET ESC O B ESC O B ESC O B ESC O B ESC O A ESC O A ESC O A RET SPC SPC SPC SPC ESC O B RET SPC ESC O B RET SPC ESC O B RET SPC DEL SPC ESC O B RET SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC ESC O B RET SPC DEL ESC O B ESC [ 6 ~ c y ESC O A ESC O A c y q y ESC x e m a c s - r e p o r t - b u g RET C-a C-k r e p o r t - e m TAB RET Recent messages: Auto-saving...done Mark all unread articles as read? (y or n) y Mark all unread articles in gmane.comp.version-control.fossil-scm.user as read? (y or n) y Are you sure you want to quit reading news? (y or n) y Saving file /home/carson/.newsrc... Wrote /home/carson/.newsrc Saving /home/carson/.newsrc.eld... Saving file /home/carson/.newsrc.eld... Wrote /home/carson/.newsrc.eld Saving /home/carson/.newsrc.eld...done Load-path shadows: None found. Features: (shadow emacsbug vc-fossil vc ediff-merg ediff-diff ediff-wind ediff-help ediff-util ediff-mult ediff-init ediff vc-dispatcher flow-fill newcomment qp mule-util sort gnus-cite mail-extr gnus-async gnus-bcklg gnus-ml disp-table nndraft nnmh nnmbox utf-7 gnutls nnimap utf7 nnfolder parse-time netrc network-stream auth-source eieio byte-opt bytecomp byte-compile cconv macroexp assoc starttls tls gnus-agent gnus-srvr gnus-score score-mode nnvirtual gnus-msg gnus-art mm-uu mml2015 mm-view mml-smime smime password-cache dig mailcap nntp gnus-cache gnus-sum nnoo gnus-group gnus-undo nnmail mail-source epg-config gnus-start gnus-spec gnus-int gnus-range message idna sendmail format-spec rfc822 mml mml-sec mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader gnus-win gnus gnus-ems nnheader gnus-util mail-utils mm-util mail-prsvr wid-edit time-date fvwm-mode easymenu bbdb-loaddefs ledger derived pcomplete comint regexp-opt ansi-color ring esh-arg esh-util package tabulated-list tooltip ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel x-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image fringe lisp-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev minibuffer loaddefs button faces cus-face files text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote make-network-process dbusbind dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 14 14:04:41 2013 Received: (at 15095) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Aug 2013 18:04:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58569 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9fR3-0000qZ-H5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:04:41 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:58330) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9fR0-0000qE-Ub for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:04:40 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MRJ00F008SJYV00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:04:32 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MRJ00FL48VJYZ00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:04:32 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:05:00 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users In-reply-to: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Carson Chittom Message-id: <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15095 Cc: 15095@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Carson Chittom > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:48:37 -0500 > > This bug report is regarding the usability of the menu system. The > "Tools" menu has three options for mail/news: > > - Read Net News (Gnus) > - Read Mail (RMAIL) > - Send Mail (with Gnus Message) C-x m > > Any user new to Emacs would, reasonably in my view, ask, "Why do I read > Net News with Gnus and send mail with Gnus Message (is that different > from just Gnus?) but read mail with RMAIL?" My recommendation is to > eliminate a specific "Send Mail" menu item, since I think most people > think of reading and sending mail together as a single task. We'd then > have two items, something like: > > - Read/Send Mail & Net News (Gnus) > - Read/Send Mail (RMAIL) That's not really the issue here. The real problem is that the "Gnus" part of "Gnus Message" is misleading: message.el is a package that was developed as part of Gnus, but you can send email with it without firing up Gnus. Since a few versions ago, Emacs uses message.el as the default way of sending email (it was sendmail.el before). Another issue that might be confusing here is that you can start mail composition and send it without reading any email before that. That's why there are 2 menu items instead of one. Finally, Rmail cannot send mail, it uses either message.el or sendmail.el for that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 14 15:10:38 2013 Received: (at 15095) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Aug 2013 19:10:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58696 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9gSs-0002sq-18 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:10:38 -0400 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:50776) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9gSp-0002sf-Eu for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:10:35 -0400 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id r7EJAXul001034; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:10:33 -0400 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id E7C82B420C; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:10:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users Message-ID: References: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:10:32 -0400 In-Reply-To: <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:05:00 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 1 Rules triggered RV4670=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9362 : core <4670> : streams <1019596> : uri <1506658> X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15095 Cc: Carson Chittom , 15095@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) >> This bug report is regarding the usability of the menu system. The >> "Tools" menu has three options for mail/news: >> >> - Read Net News (Gnus) >> - Read Mail (RMAIL) >> - Send Mail (with Gnus Message) C-x m >> >> Any user new to Emacs would, reasonably in my view, ask, "Why do I read >> Net News with Gnus and send mail with Gnus Message (is that different >> from just Gnus?) but read mail with RMAIL?" My recommendation is to >> eliminate a specific "Send Mail" menu item, since I think most people >> think of reading and sending mail together as a single task. We'd then >> have two items, something like: >> >> - Read/Send Mail & Net News (Gnus) >> - Read/Send Mail (RMAIL) I think "Send Mail" should be replaced with "Compose new mail". Then it makes more sense to have a separate entry for it. And the (Gnus) and (RMAIL) annotations should be removed from the menu item. They could be moved to the :help-echo thingy, but they need to make it clear that it's just the currently configured "backend". > That's not really the issue here. The real problem is that the "Gnus" > part of "Gnus Message" is misleading: message.el is a package that was Indeed, the name should just be "Message". Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 14 15:50:09 2013 Received: (at 15095) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Aug 2013 19:50:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58761 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9h56-00043a-LL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:50:09 -0400 Received: from nm26-vm7.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([216.39.63.204]:35066) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9h53-00042u-NA for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:50:06 -0400 Received: from [216.39.60.175] by nm26.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2013 19:49:59 -0000 Received: from [67.195.14.108] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2013 19:49:59 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp105.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2013 19:49:59 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 487464.40324.bm@smtp105.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: S5fseSYVM1m3jKkS0le95be3cy3Ysh_znGFg.bgTVkQtZdZ x8tNgy8BL6t52G7pIvkrIw6LfsloaI7Y9BLQ9i21BKPqtLFjO7chlbsyTeEv lJpRBcgNOTWTbJYyN3ZH3cII2STwHY_Wtk9L2w7vYGI8cwoVRBLiujZXYDNn pfN5lGBGrdKb5z.3etxTbV5Iz.dKDzdVEQ0BIKQAV91fDPQAMKu3S63Mxawb vSVydkPMthCfWawSraTKsxPde8dZD2jxsWO21VzllaCCWXFyb.a6MFj41p0r UtdcSmLOQ6QGx4LjJ3LakR906VFnGKawZg_7abnso5N5DFZqVrVcPPgGIKun guD.vELIoiCke1k2POgY6EbHNRR9TSCnSWbqVOU2SrAUi.mTmYCtZw7YNR4a cVN79NgZqsrbJiwtsdDEOZkX0r3nf1PkKyn68plvYl.jbreU7IkRigpHOCJQ CZ18.Hna5PoxxFrqbXwmO5p2Dj3S2dr04JH.DjNNUHwbUglfmoCObrZAqGju cI_aGYe.MIxIyEr33oWDGh1uK5EOwWPntW2ScbJRlZzQt4FG5HXA- X-Yahoo-SMTP: hZyeSdyswBAntTRwE4iHeNvlTr4tnw.ghKUIbT6L X-Rocket-Received: from abbey.wistly.net (carson@108.131.107.160 with plain) by smtp105.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Aug 2013 12:49:59 -0700 PDT Received: from localhost (1000@localhost [local]); by abbey.wistly.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 7462ddbf; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:49:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Carson Chittom To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users References: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:49:57 -0500 In-Reply-To: <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:05:00 +0300") Message-ID: <87ob90uk62.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15095 Cc: 15095@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Another issue that might be confusing here is that you can start mail > composition and send it without reading any email before that. That's > why there are 2 menu items instead of one. I agree (of course) that that's what's going on and why there are currently two menu items. My contention, though, is that the kind of people who are apt to be confused are the same people who don't want to, or rather don't think to, send mail without going to the mail function. Put another way, "Send a mail message while in the text editing mode" sounds strange unless you already know how Emacs handles sending mail, whereas "Take me to the mail functionality so I can send a mail message (and maybe read some too)" makes more sense to a user without much experience of Emacs. > Finally, Rmail cannot send mail, it uses either message.el or > sendmail.el for that. I think that for purposes of the discussion here, that's a distinction without a difference (though of course it's an important difference in another context). If I'm a new user, I start up Rmail to read my mail, and then reply to a message, am I going to know or care that Rmail is actually calling message.el? I don't think so, any more than a random user would care that sendmail on the current system is actually exim or smtpd. Incidentally, I didn't remember what came up, so I just tried (via emacs -Q and then going through Rmail) to send a message like a new user would. Emacs (presumably message.el) just prompts me to select "mail client," "transport," or "smtp" to send my message; and there is no indication that I've left Rmail. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 14 16:22:49 2013 Received: (at 15095) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Aug 2013 20:22:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58822 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9hai-0004zi-Uo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:22:49 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:23543) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9hah-0004zU-LZ for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:22:48 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r7EKMFRd010631 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:22:23 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7EKM9ul012079 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:22:09 GMT Received: from abhmt119.oracle.com (abhmt119.oracle.com [141.146.116.71]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7EKM9DF005382; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:22:09 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <82aad71a-5cdf-4e0e-845c-a382600d396c@default> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:22:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier , Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users References: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15095 Cc: Carson Chittom , 15095@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) > I think "Send Mail" should be replaced with "Compose new mail". Then it > makes more sense to have a separate entry for it. Or perhaps just "New Message"? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 14 22:44:42 2013 Received: (at 15095) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Aug 2013 02:44:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59295 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9nYH-00075Z-MS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:44:42 -0400 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:39616) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9nYD-00075G-0i for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:44:38 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MRJ00D00WPQ8200@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:44:30 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MRJ00D6JWY51C60@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:44:30 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:44:59 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users In-reply-to: <87ob90uk62.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Carson Chittom Message-id: <8338qbpt90.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> <87ob90uk62.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15095 Cc: 15095@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Carson Chittom > Cc: 15095@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:49:57 -0500 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Another issue that might be confusing here is that you can start mail > > composition and send it without reading any email before that. That's > > why there are 2 menu items instead of one. > > I agree (of course) that that's what's going on and why there are > currently two menu items. My contention, though, is that the kind of > people who are apt to be confused are the same people who don't want to, > or rather don't think to, send mail without going to the mail function. > Put another way, "Send a mail message while in the text editing mode" > sounds strange unless you already know how Emacs handles sending mail, I'm guessing everyone is nowadays aware of a function in a word processor that sends the current document via email. So I think you are wrong here. > Incidentally, I didn't remember what came up, so I just tried (via > emacs -Q and then going through Rmail) to send a message like a new user > would. Emacs (presumably message.el) just prompts me to select "mail > client," "transport," or "smtp" to send my message; and there is no > indication that I've left Rmail. The indication is in the mode line, as usual in Emacs. After all, that's how you know you are in Rmail, right? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 15 08:02:33 2013 Received: (at 15095) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Aug 2013 12:02:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60007 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9wG9-0008IY-2x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 08:02:33 -0400 Received: from nm10-vm3.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([216.39.63.68]:39928) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9wG6-0008II-K1 for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 08:02:31 -0400 Received: from [216.39.60.166] by nm10.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Aug 2013 12:02:24 -0000 Received: from [67.195.23.148] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Aug 2013 12:02:24 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp120.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Aug 2013 12:02:24 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 303251.88797.bm@smtp120.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: asIjPPsVM1kOLyqjAFqt_HgWznoT0FAk.JCNGv.0fq0Tgh5 i8uunI1EYEBG1HkqFkLA9ZKUIjV13Fg729.F.PABBqIdm6X8eXYX2tqYeeFB CFmp64koVAr.2UwjOnsZRIhh_.1v175avN6pg4jPXRoCV5KmGOQWSAqtTX6K EcsyUpnk.zexN2J9N8CTKINi6Jpc3HzLP0Qhke22.Z0Aya4bakem6Gta1CpW IYTa6BOnF2AyYHzIpAjLLof1QBIQMmjyDIEMJwqJyyNHUTOhyGMoHj9r3I8u c8UUpV2O1knQUMWKrM44EOeRL5fb5nO9TIXHv9kKMqtNS7TkmYHyGcv6aDe6 OqvZkFMtnxQjKA1tS3741UqCTmZ2yuPRNPs5bX22tkqAuKZOrHMAmBUaYXfD Jbd85zbRPSv_p0s4HReGssDGGctAfma9_DwVVg9nfQyB0Ze1GhnXKYi6NfQa QewEG8PQn46E273b0fGlW0rEVfmeF.s3.asWbi0t0g.jeoTOuCrdZ6cAYego oFp97v8XDIfvwN.rzYJSKyz0.gem.uBY- X-Yahoo-SMTP: hZyeSdyswBAntTRwE4iHeNvlTr4tnw.ghKUIbT6L X-Rocket-Received: from abbey.wistly.net (carson@108.131.113.89 with ) by smtp120.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Aug 2013 12:02:24 +0000 UTC Received: from localhost (1000@localhost [local]); by abbey.wistly.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id e9316a2b; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:02:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Carson Chittom To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users References: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> <87ob90uk62.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <8338qbpt90.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:02:21 -0500 In-Reply-To: <8338qbpt90.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:44:59 +0300") Message-ID: <87mwojqi0i.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15095 Cc: 15095@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > I'm guessing everyone is nowadays aware of a function in a word > processor that sends the current document via email. So I think you > are wrong here. I have to disagree. It's my experience--and granted, the plural of anecdote is not data--that in an office where Microsoft Office is used heavily, daily, nearly no one uses this functionality, even if they are aware of it; and very few are aware of it. I know this because messages are by default formatted differently (for example, the signature block is not used) if they are sent in this way. My co-workers invariably - save the file - open Outlook - compose a new message - locate the file in Explorer - drag it into the new message to attach it, and then hit "send" I see them do it every day. Even in LibreOffice (which is what I have on the machine I'm writing this from), the menu item is simply "Send", which then has a submenu to give you several choices, of which the first is "Document as Email...." Moreover, it's in the "File" menu, which I think makes it considerably clearer to a new user that "here is an option which will allow you to send the current file/document via email." >> Incidentally, I didn't remember what came up, so I just tried (via >> emacs -Q and then going through Rmail) to send a message like a new user >> would. Emacs (presumably message.el) just prompts me to select "mail >> client," "transport," or "smtp" to send my message; and there is no >> indication that I've left Rmail. > > The indication is in the mode line, as usual in Emacs. After all, > that's how you know you are in Rmail, right? It just says "Message." There is no indication--again, to a user unfamiliar with Emacs--that Message isn't just some part of Rmail. To be clear, I'm not saying there *should* be an indication other than the mode line. I'm just saying that to a new user it doesn't *matter*. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 15 11:02:49 2013 Received: (at 15095) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Aug 2013 15:02:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60536 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9z4a-0005UA-1E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 11:02:48 -0400 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:40528) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V9z4Y-0005Tm-1L for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 11:02:47 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MRK00600UYF4F00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 18:02:38 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MRK005UTV4DXE40@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 18:02:38 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 18:03:08 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users In-reply-to: <87mwojqi0i.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Carson Chittom Message-id: <83wqnnngib.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> <87ob90uk62.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <8338qbpt90.fsf@gnu.org> <87mwojqi0i.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15095 Cc: 15095@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Carson Chittom > Cc: 15095@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:02:21 -0500 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > I'm guessing everyone is nowadays aware of a function in a word > > processor that sends the current document via email. So I think you > > are wrong here. > > I have to disagree. It's my experience--and granted, the plural of > anecdote is not data--that in an office where Microsoft Office is used > heavily, daily, nearly no one uses this functionality, even if they are > aware of it; and very few are aware of it. My experience is almost exactly the opposite. I get quite a few emails whose subject is a telltale "Emailing: Something.doc". > >> Incidentally, I didn't remember what came up, so I just tried (via > >> emacs -Q and then going through Rmail) to send a message like a new user > >> would. Emacs (presumably message.el) just prompts me to select "mail > >> client," "transport," or "smtp" to send my message; and there is no > >> indication that I've left Rmail. > > > > The indication is in the mode line, as usual in Emacs. After all, > > that's how you know you are in Rmail, right? > > It just says "Message." There is no indication--again, to a user > unfamiliar with Emacs--that Message isn't just some part of Rmail. As you well know, that "Message" thing is the current major mode. It was "Rmail" when you were in Rmail. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 15 13:24:05 2013 Received: (at 15095) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Aug 2013 17:24:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60885 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VA1HJ-0003Ch-43 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 13:24:05 -0400 Received: from nm20-vm6.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com ([216.109.115.117]:37475) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VA1HG-0003C5-Ud for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 13:24:03 -0400 Received: from [66.196.81.155] by nm20.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Aug 2013 17:23:57 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.241] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Aug 2013 17:23:57 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp112.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Aug 2013 17:23:57 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 334966.15140.bm@smtp112.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: o42OJ1wVM1nt4FzwILDREzo1hq4hdGQRES4iJ0_dMz5Slcl jf.JBfTppPG.ww_SKzxnidFpnwuj0evs7ITYtJyvJztIIyHp.1MAm1vpIVOp d8ODR2yBQPY3NO1ZSnbmDr5UNq87O93FwNcMUbMefCsJjkusjxY105dEnXXI qckcPKI3WcsLZ9PE85JLvPWxyrFhqiNtwbFVp0esa1P6Wvikf0YVh3Xe2ULg 7goN5zTxgiMQTeTFHrVJD2O32hxhpMiWU0_X0bXfbKK_B2CNM1V0gjW6SUPZ GL5QpDkXx.gSgDwGEi233s1NzotzDwOQGpcHrR4I6ZZ57RhaT2q9A8xDQp6G aIfmfq8j95Up_W76g_bg5tvq60v_gZsbCQXJCGnOf9b1Q_Jk6kk8Ww56dK.l 9RL6hNZg5qFt_ZndXdoknSG3lT3Q6ZtQ0PlvRWrA3EwPgQxtbukMi83RCua4 sqFu3k_J22GDqDAT1MPWwgtZMXy2ETQ1EodEwEi7nw_Gm6aZHhbJ5Ntdy.YP peTgMFp4.a33jrw-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: hZyeSdyswBAntTRwE4iHeNvlTr4tnw.ghKUIbT6L X-Rocket-Received: from abbey.wistly.net (carson@108.131.113.89 with plain) by smtp112.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Aug 2013 10:23:57 -0700 PDT Received: from localhost (1000@localhost [local]); by abbey.wistly.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 9bc16fdd; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 12:23:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Carson Chittom To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users References: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> <87ob90uk62.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <8338qbpt90.fsf@gnu.org> <87mwojqi0i.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <83wqnnngib.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 12:23:55 -0500 In-Reply-To: <83wqnnngib.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 15 Aug 2013 18:03:08 +0300") Message-ID: <87d2pevpec.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15095 Cc: 15095@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > As you well know, that "Message" thing is the current major mode. It > was "Rmail" when you were in Rmail. Yes, *I* know that, and *you* know that. But my point is that this bug report is not about me or you, it's about being confusing to a *new* user, one who is unfamiliar with Emacs. When I first began using Emacs several years ago, I didn't even know what the mode line was, much less that I should look at it. All I knew was that Emacs was this text editor that a lot of people talked about and which could do various things in addition to editing text. In any case, it seems obvious that you've already decided to leave three menu items. I still believe it's confusing to new users, but I've exhausted my interest in discussing it. Please feel free to close this report as Will Not Fix or whatever is appropriate. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 15 13:41:07 2013 Received: (at 15095) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Aug 2013 17:41:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60899 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VA1Xm-0003g3-Lw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 13:41:07 -0400 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:50430) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VA1Xj-0003fU-U4 for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 13:41:05 -0400 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MRL0090027UCB00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 20:40:57 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MRL009M22G82PB0@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 20:40:57 +0300 (IDT) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 20:41:28 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users In-reply-to: <87d2pevpec.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Carson Chittom Message-id: <83fvuaonqv.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> <87ob90uk62.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <8338qbpt90.fsf@gnu.org> <87mwojqi0i.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <83wqnnngib.fsf@gnu.org> <87d2pevpec.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15095 Cc: 15095@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > From: Carson Chittom > Cc: 15095@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 12:23:55 -0500 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > As you well know, that "Message" thing is the current major mode. It > > was "Rmail" when you were in Rmail. > > Yes, *I* know that, and *you* know that. But my point is that this bug > report is not about me or you, it's about being confusing to a *new* > user, one who is unfamiliar with Emacs. The mode line is described in the tutorial, which should be the first reading. A user who doesn't understand what is displayed in the mode line will have much more difficult problems than to find her way in these 3 menu items. > In any case, it seems obvious that you've already decided to leave three > menu items. I didn't decide anything. I was just giving some response and context to this bug report. I hope it will be useful to whoever will decide to make the changes in the menus. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 15 16:42:45 2013 Received: (at 15095) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Aug 2013 20:42:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32938 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VA4NZ-00009B-2m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 16:42:45 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:58228 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VA4NW-000091-Jv for 15095@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 16:42:43 -0400 Received: from [98.143.210.201] (port=50673 helo=ceviche.home) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VA4NV-000872-8y; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 16:42:41 -0400 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 5E069660F8; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 16:42:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users Message-ID: References: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> <87ob90uk62.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <8338qbpt90.fsf@gnu.org> <87mwojqi0i.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <83wqnnngib.fsf@gnu.org> <87d2pevpec.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <83fvuaonqv.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 16:42:42 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83fvuaonqv.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 15 Aug 2013 20:41:28 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15095 Cc: Carson Chittom , 15095@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) >> > As you well know, that "Message" thing is the current major mode. It >> > was "Rmail" when you were in Rmail. >> Yes, *I* know that, and *you* know that. But my point is that this bug >> report is not about me or you, it's about being confusing to a *new* >> user, one who is unfamiliar with Emacs. > The mode line is described in the tutorial, which should be the first > reading. A user who doesn't understand what is displayed in the mode > line will have much more difficult problems than to find her way in > these 3 menu items. It's still irrelevant: whether you're in Message mode or Rmail mode has no implication in terms of whether you're still in Rmail or not. After all, when I'm typing my message in Message mode (opened from Gnus), I consider myself as still being in Gnus. Is it really the case? Does it matter? But yes, technically, composing and sending an email is largely separate from reading email. There's surprisingly little overlap from a technical point of view between the two activities. Also sometimes you just want to compose an email (maybe even without having set up mail-reading, since after all, the two require separate configuration as well, even in MUAs like evolution). So I think having 3 entries is fine, but the wording could be improved and there's no reason to pollute the menu with info about which backend is currently configured (or about the fact that Message originally grew out of Gnus). Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Aug 16 02:51:43 2013 Received: (at 15095-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Aug 2013 06:51:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33697 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VADss-0001H3-EX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:51:43 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:37714 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VADso-0001Gu-Vs for 15095-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:51:39 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VADsn-0006E9-CT; Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:51:37 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: 15095-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users References: <87y584tdzu.fsf@abbey.wistly.net> <837gfop2r7.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: COSCO EuroFed Lexis-Nexis fraud sweep ASPIC enemy of the X-Ran: >Zt*UEXc82<\vy_z5`QF)ts:[m!AWx66JSa#dJOe0#}*^lw?y>lE7+TqCt8v"kg;}>y=Sw X-Hue: white X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:51:37 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:10:32 -0400") Message-ID: <3861v6nn5y.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -7.8 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 15095-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.8 (-------) Version: 24.4 Stefan Monnier wrote: > I think "Send Mail" should be replaced with "Compose new mail". Then it > makes more sense to have a separate entry for it. > > And the (Gnus) and (RMAIL) annotations should be removed from the > menu item. Done. From unknown Mon Aug 18 17:59:31 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 11:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator