From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 05 16:35:14 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jul 2013 20:35:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32822 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCin-0006tq-Ra for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:35:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:60212) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCil-0006tQ-5S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:35:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCif-00075T-AY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:35:06 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:50655) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCif-00075G-7s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:35:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33700) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCie-0000wb-EX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:35:05 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCid-0006xW-DQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:35:04 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:31503) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCid-0006vd-68 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:35:03 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r65KZ1BX011995 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2013 20:35:02 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r65KZ0cc008480 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2013 20:35:01 GMT Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r65KZ0up025321 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2013 20:35:00 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6db9278b-b9e4-4890-ba91-4e2031e3b45f@default> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 13:34:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.3.50; (elisp) Multiple Terminals - what is a terminal attribute? X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) The term "terminal attribute" is mentioned here only, and with no explanation. What is it? Is it the same thing as a terminal parameter? The wording would suggest that one of the terminal attributes is a list of terminal parameters, but things are not very clear at all. In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2013-07-01 on LEG570 Bzr revision: 113246 lekktu@gmail.com-20130701165437-ea20s94hqwp3ttaj Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/usr --enable-checking CFLAGS=3D'-O0 -g3' CPPFLAGS=3D'-DGLYPH_DEBUG=3D1 -I/c/usr/include'' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 08 01:31:42 2014 Received: (at 14802) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2014 06:31:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56205 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WC1S0-00005E-Gp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 08 Feb 2014 01:31:40 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:48590) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WC1Ry-000056-36 for 14802@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 08 Feb 2014 01:31:38 -0500 Received: from [204.14.154.233] (helo=building.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WC1Rj-0006bL-Tw; Sat, 08 Feb 2014 07:31:24 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#14802: 24.3.50; (elisp) Multiple Terminals - what is a terminal attribute? References: <6db9278b-b9e4-4890-ba91-4e2031e3b45f@default> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 22:30:15 -0800 In-Reply-To: <6db9278b-b9e4-4890-ba91-4e2031e3b45f@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 5 Jul 2013 13:34:58 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87lhxmyv48.fsf@building.gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13001 (Ma Gnus v0.10) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1WC1Rj-0006bL-Tw X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1392445884.59996@3UyuZuJ8KFulbRFK16H67w X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14802 Cc: 14802@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Drew Adams writes: > The term "terminal attribute" is mentioned here only, and with no > explanation. What is it? Is it the same thing as a terminal parameter? > The wording would suggest that one of the terminal attributes is a list > of terminal parameters, but things are not very clear at all. I can't find that term at all in the manual, so this seems like it's fixed now. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 08 01:31:48 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2014 06:31:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56208 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WC1S6-00005c-W8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 08 Feb 2014 01:31:47 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:48596) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WC1S4-00005T-Ec for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 08 Feb 2014 01:31:44 -0500 Received: from [204.14.154.233] (helo=building.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WC1Rp-0006bZ-HE for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 08 Feb 2014 07:31:29 +0100 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 22:30:20 -0800 Message-Id: <87k3d6yv43.fsf@building.gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #14802 X-MailScanner-ID: 1WC1Rp-0006bZ-HE X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1392445891.28394@EPPHVfuF3eT8sX+l8YT2aw X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) close 14802 From unknown Fri Aug 15 04:05:28 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 01:26:01 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 09 20:28:06 2014 Received: (at 14802) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2014 01:28:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32894 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCffJ-00074X-St for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 20:28:06 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:44579) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCffI-00074L-5R for 14802@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 20:28:04 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s1A1S1RY021912 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 10 Feb 2014 01:28:02 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s1A1S0ra023365 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 10 Feb 2014 01:28:00 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s1A1RxUD015646; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 01:28:00 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1aaa1446-2f93-457f-af06-a40220ebfe5f@default> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:27:57 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: RE: bug#14802: 24.3.50; (elisp) Multiple Terminals - what is a terminal attribute? References: <6db9278b-b9e4-4890-ba91-4e2031e3b45f@default> <87lhxmyv48.fsf@building.gnus.org> In-Reply-To: <87lhxmyv48.fsf@building.gnus.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14802 Cc: 14802@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > I can't find that term at all in the manual, so this seems like it's > fixed now. Well, you have to read. ;-) The undefined concept is introduced in the node I cited. "Each terminal object has the following attributes" What does that mean? What kind of an Emacs thingie is a terminal attribute? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 09 21:23:54 2014 Received: (at 14802) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2014 02:23:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32978 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCgXK-0001AR-4D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:23:54 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:55450) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCgXI-0001AJ-Rs for 14802@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:23:53 -0500 Received: from [204.14.154.233] (helo=building.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WCgX3-0004HU-NG; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 03:23:38 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#14802: 24.3.50; (elisp) Multiple Terminals - what is a terminal attribute? References: <6db9278b-b9e4-4890-ba91-4e2031e3b45f@default> <87lhxmyv48.fsf@building.gnus.org> <1aaa1446-2f93-457f-af06-a40220ebfe5f@default> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2014 18:22:25 -0800 In-Reply-To: <1aaa1446-2f93-457f-af06-a40220ebfe5f@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:27:57 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: <87zjlzyae6.fsf@building.gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13001 (Ma Gnus v0.10) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1WCgX3-0004HU-NG X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1392603819.46551@DKmsgsgtYZYIU2M0gf4p2A X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14802 Cc: 14802@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Drew Adams writes: >> I can't find that term at all in the manual, so this seems like it's >> fixed now. > > Well, you have to read. ;-) The undefined concept is introduced in the > node I cited. > > "Each terminal object has the following attributes" > > What does that mean? What kind of an Emacs thingie is a terminal > attribute? The definition is indexed under "terminal"... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 09 22:44:01 2014 Received: (at 14802) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2014 03:44:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33199 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WChmq-0006wh-K3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 22:44:00 -0500 Received: from mtaout27.012.net.il ([80.179.55.183]:40248) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WChmp-0006wY-16 for 14802@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 22:43:59 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout27.012.net.il by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N0R00G00G44F300@mtaout27.012.net.il> for 14802@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 05:42:39 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout27.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N0R00J11GZ2FK00@mtaout27.012.net.il>; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 05:42:39 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 05:43:41 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#14802: 24.3.50; (elisp) Multiple Terminals - what is a terminal attribute? In-reply-to: <1aaa1446-2f93-457f-af06-a40220ebfe5f@default> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83bnyfvdhu.fsf@gnu.org> References: <6db9278b-b9e4-4890-ba91-4e2031e3b45f@default> <87lhxmyv48.fsf@building.gnus.org> <1aaa1446-2f93-457f-af06-a40220ebfe5f@default> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14802 Cc: 14802@debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 17:27:57 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 14802@debbugs.gnu.org > > What kind of an Emacs thingie is a terminal attribute? It's an attribute of a terminal object. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 09 23:04:00 2014 Received: (at 14802) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2014 04:04:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33314 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCi6C-0001SI-4x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 23:04:00 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:40546) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCi6A-0001SA-7o for 14802@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 23:03:58 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s1A43u86002152 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 10 Feb 2014 04:03:57 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s1A43tNi024132 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 10 Feb 2014 04:03:56 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.5+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s1A43tZ9002680; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 04:03:55 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 20:03:52 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#14802: 24.3.50; (elisp) Multiple Terminals - what is a terminal attribute? References: <<6db9278b-b9e4-4890-ba91-4e2031e3b45f@default>> <<87lhxmyv48.fsf@building.gnus.org>> <<1aaa1446-2f93-457f-af06-a40220ebfe5f@default>> <<83bnyfvdhu.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83bnyfvdhu.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14802 Cc: 14802@debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > > What kind of an Emacs thingie is a terminal attribute? >=20 > It's an attribute of a terminal object. OK, that gives it a name. Now how about saying what that is (in the manual)? Either that or don't introduce the term - it is just vapor otherwise, and confusing. Users can wonder what they're missing, and where to find it. If the text said "characteristics" or "qualities" or similar, users wouldn't wonder so much. But "attribute" typically means something particular in software. If what is meant here is the ordinary English use of the word then I suggest picking a less technical-sounding equivalent. If what is meant really is something technical that is known as a terminal attribute (as one user, I really don't know), then that term either needs explaining or users should be sent elsewhere for info about it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 10 03:02:28 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2014 08:02:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33957 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WClox-0006sN-42 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 03:02:27 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:45804) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WClos-0006sC-BT for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 03:02:23 -0500 Received: from [204.14.154.233] (helo=building.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WClod-0001Pw-87 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 09:02:07 +0100 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 00:00:54 -0800 Message-Id: <8738jrz9ah.fsf@building.gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #14802 X-MailScanner-ID: 1WClod-0001Pw-87 X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1392624128.06705@rDN8XqUfgakUeKdUZIfBqw X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) close 14802 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 10 11:19:35 2014 Received: (at 14802) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2014 16:19:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41493 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCtZz-0001NW-NL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:19:35 -0500 Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:40497) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCtZs-0001ND-DW for 14802@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:19:28 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N0S00200FWLKI00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for 14802@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:19:17 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N0S002JNG01KD00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:19:17 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:18:59 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#14802: 24.3.50; (elisp) Multiple Terminals - what is a terminal attribute? In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <8361onuej0.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14802 Cc: 14802@debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2014 20:03:52 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: larsi@gnus.org, 14802@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > What kind of an Emacs thingie is a terminal attribute? > > > > It's an attribute of a terminal object. > > OK, that gives it a name. Now how about saying what that > is (in the manual)? > > Either that or don't introduce the term - it is just vapor > otherwise, and confusing. Users can wonder what they're missing, > and where to find it. I really don't understand the purpose of this bug report, because this very node is the answer to all your questions and gripes. It includes: . a full list of the attributes of a terminal object (directly below the single sentence you cited in your report) . documentation of functions that access those attributes, and . references to other nodes where related features and issues are described What else is missing? > If the text said "characteristics" or "qualities" or similar, > users wouldn't wonder so much. But "attribute" typically means > something particular in software. If what is meant here is the > ordinary English use of the word then I suggest picking a less > technical-sounding equivalent. > > If what is meant really is something technical that is known > as a terminal attribute (as one user, I really don't know), > then that term either needs explaining or users should be > sent elsewhere for info about it. I see nothing wrong with the word "attribute". In this very manual, we have: . text attributes . face attributes . file attributes . package attributes . process attributes What's wrong with having "terminal object attributes"? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 10 14:28:11 2014 Received: (at 14802) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2014 19:28:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41796 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCwWY-0003j1-Rd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 14:28:11 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:21641) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCwWV-0003im-NF for 14802@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 14:28:08 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s1AJS0EP024708 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:28:01 GMT Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s1AJRxSD001824 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:28:00 GMT Received: from abhmp0015.oracle.com (abhmp0015.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s1AJRx19028341; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 19:27:59 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:27:58 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#14802: 24.3.50; (elisp) Multiple Terminals - what is a terminal attribute? References: <> <<8361onuej0.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<8361onuej0.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14802 Cc: 14802@debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) > I really don't understand the purpose of this bug report, because > this very node is the answer to all your questions and gripes. It > includes: >=20 > . a full list of the attributes of a terminal object (directly > below the single sentence you cited in your report) > . documentation of functions that access those attributes, and > . references to other nodes where related features and issues are > described So you _are_ saying that "terminal attribute" is a term and concept being introduced, and we are not just using the English word "attribute" in a general sense. Great. In that case, please put it in quotes, as we usually do for a term introduction. And, as this bug report requests, say something about what it is, if you can - what the term means. Listing values is not really a substitute for that. > What else is missing? See above. > > If what is meant really is something technical that is known > > as a terminal attribute (as one user, I really don't know), > > then that term either needs explaining or users should be > > sent elsewhere for info about it. >=20 > I see nothing wrong with the word "attribute". In this very manual, > we have: >=20 > . text attributes > . face attributes > . file attributes > . package attributes > . process attributes >=20 > What's wrong with having "terminal object attributes"? Nothing. Say what you mean by the term, as we do for each of the others you cited. And index it. Compare what you see by following `i face attribute': The term is quoted and described: "Face attributes" determine the visual appearance of a face... Or follow `i package attribute', to see: Each package (whether simple or multi-file) has certain "attributes": (That one is a minimal description - it just introduces particular attributes without saying what is meant by the term. But at least it introduces the term explicitly.) BTW, "attributes of text" is in the index, but "text attribute" should also be added. And the indexed node is `Text Properties'. The term "text attribute" should be cited there as meaning the same as "text property", which is the term described. Also, I said "each" above, but that's not quite right: * The term "file attribute" also should be introduced explicitly, in node `File Attributes'. E.g.: ...detailed information about a file, including the owner and group numbers, the number of names, the inode number, the size, and the times of access and modification. Add something like this: `These characteristics are referred to as "file attributes".' * "Process attribute" is also not introduced explicitly, in node `System Processes'. Also, although function `process-attributes' is indexed, `process attribute' is not. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 10 14:52:57 2014 Received: (at 14802-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2014 19:52:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41820 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCwuT-0004My-O2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 14:52:57 -0500 Received: from mtaout25.012.net.il ([80.179.55.181]:36054) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCwuO-0004Mg-5i for 14802-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 14:52:52 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout25.012.net.il by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N0S00D00PSN5T00@mtaout25.012.net.il> for 14802-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 21:51:47 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout25.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N0S00CT2PUAJ600@mtaout25.012.net.il>; Mon, 10 Feb 2014 21:51:47 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 21:52:26 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#14802: 24.3.50; (elisp) Multiple Terminals - what is a terminal attribute? In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Message-id: <83ha86u4n9.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8361onuej0.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14802-done Cc: 14802-done@debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) > Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:27:58 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: larsi@gnus.org, 14802@debbugs.gnu.org > > > I really don't understand the purpose of this bug report, because > > this very node is the answer to all your questions and gripes. It > > includes: > > > > . a full list of the attributes of a terminal object (directly > > below the single sentence you cited in your report) > > . documentation of functions that access those attributes, and > > . references to other nodes where related features and issues are > > described > > So you _are_ saying that "terminal attribute" is a term and concept > being introduced, and we are not just using the English word > "attribute" in a general sense. It's not a term or concept, no. It's a word. > In that case, please put it in quotes, as we usually do for a term > introduction. It's not a term. > And, as this bug report requests, say something about what it is, if > you can - what the term means. Listing values is not really a > substitute for that. Yes, it is. Because it's not a term. > > I see nothing wrong with the word "attribute". In this very manual, > > we have: > > > > . text attributes > > . face attributes > > . file attributes > > . package attributes > > . process attributes > > > > What's wrong with having "terminal object attributes"? > > Nothing. Say what you mean by the term, as we do for each of > the others you cited. We don't. > And index it. It's not a term, so no need to index it. > Or follow `i package attribute', to see: > > Each package (whether simple or multi-file) has certain > "attributes": Which is exactly what we say about terminal attributes. > (That one is a minimal description - it just introduces particular > attributes without saying what is meant by the term. But at least > it introduces the term explicitly.) It's not a term. > BTW, "attributes of text" is in the index, but "text attribute" > should also be added. Yes, we should also index "text", and perhaps also "index", because otherwise who knows what these mean? > * The term "file attribute" also should be introduced explicitly, > in node `File Attributes'. E.g.: > > ...detailed information about a file, including the owner and > group numbers, the number of names, the inode number, the size, > and the times of access and modification. > > Add something like this: `These characteristics are referred to as > "file attributes".' > > * "Process attribute" is also not introduced explicitly, in node > `System Processes'. Also, although function `process-attributes' > is indexed, `process attribute' is not. Like I said: terminal attributes are not special. Closing, as there's nothing more to be said here, and no bug anywhere in sight. From unknown Fri Aug 15 04:05:28 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 11:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator