From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 05 16:31:11 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jul 2013 20:31:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32816 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCes-0006l3-UR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:31:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:58801) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCeq-0006km-H1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:31:09 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCej-0005iZ-Q9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:31:03 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:49868) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCej-0005iV-N5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:31:01 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60497) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCei-0008KP-BS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:31:01 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCeh-0005hI-2E for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:31:00 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:33376) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UvCeg-0005gK-M6 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 16:30:58 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r65KUufS003881 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2013 20:30:57 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r65KUuAU013914 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2013 20:30:56 GMT Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r65KUt6M029823 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2013 20:30:55 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 13:30:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.3.50; Document monitor attributes (e.g., `workarea' and `mm-size') X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) Monitor attributes are partially documented in `C-h f display-monitor-attributes-list'. They should also be (fully) documented in the Elisp manual. Even in the doc string of d-m-a-l, the description is incomplete and needs to be filled out. Attribute `workareas' is described only in terms of "the workarea". There is no explanation of what is meant by "workarea" (which should presumably be two words, BTW). Attribute `mm-size' is described only as "the width and height in millimeters". It's all very nice to say what the units are, but what is it that is being measured? The width & height of what? If it is the "work area" (whatever that might be) then say so explicitly. Beyond all this, what on Earth IS a monitor "attribute"? Is it supposed to be the same thing as a frame parameter? The Elisp manual covers file attributes and face attributes. And it mentions terminal attributes (in passing - there is no explanation or description of them), but it is silent about monitor attributes. The doc for this feature or collection of features (?) is hopelessly incomplete and confused. One can only make wild guesses as to what is meant and what this is all about. In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2013-07-01 on LEG570 Bzr revision: 113246 lekktu@gmail.com-20130701165437-ea20s94hqwp3ttaj Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/usr --enable-checking CFLAGS=3D'-O0 -g3' CPPFLAGS=3D'-DGLYPH_DEBUG=3D1 -I/c/usr/include'' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 05 19:29:32 2013 Received: (at 14801) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jul 2013 23:29:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33038 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvFRT-0004P2-TC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 19:29:32 -0400 Received: from mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp ([133.82.132.2]:63485) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvFRQ-0004Ok-EH for 14801@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 19:29:30 -0400 Received: from church.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (church [133.82.132.36]) by mathmail.math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05343C055D; Sat, 6 Jul 2013 08:29:23 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2013 08:29:23 +0900 Message-ID: From: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#14801: 24.3.50; Document monitor attributes (e.g., `workarea' and `mm-size') In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.8 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Shij=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.3 (sparc-sun-solaris2.8) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: Faculty of Science, Chiba University MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14801 Cc: 14801@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.2 (/) >>>>> On Fri, 5 Jul 2013 13:30:53 -0700 (PDT), Drew Adams said: > Monitor attributes are partially documented in `C-h f > display-monitor-attributes-list'. They should also be (fully) > documented in the Elisp manual. Actually I was preparing for that. See the bottom of this mail. > Even in the doc string of d-m-a-l, the description is incomplete and > needs to be filled out. > Attribute `workareas' is described only in terms of "the workarea". > There is no explanation of what is meant by "workarea" (which should > presumably be two words, BTW). While I was creating the docstring, I actually looked for the definition of "workarea" in EWMH on which the implementation is based. Unfortunately, it only says as "work area". http://standards.freedesktop.org/wm-spec/1.3/ar01s03.html#id3075721 But I've just found the GDK documentation has some explanation: "The work area should be considered when positioning menus and similar popups, to avoid placing them below panels, docks or other desktop components." https://developer.gnome.org/gdk3/3.8/GdkScreen.html#gdk-screen-get-monitor-workarea If it is allowed to use "panels", "docks" or "desktop components" without their definitions, probably similar explanation of "work area" can be provided. > Attribute `mm-size' is described only as "the width and height in > millimeters". It's all very nice to say what the units are, but > what is it that is being measured? The width & height of what? If > it is the "work area" (whatever that might be) then say so > explicitly. Of the monitor. I thought it was obvious from the context. But I can add "of the physical monitor" for clarity. > Beyond all this, what on Earth IS a monitor "attribute"? Is it > supposed to be the same thing as a frame parameter? No. It is an alist describing some kinds of information about current configuration of each physical monitor. I named it after "file attributes". > The Elisp manual covers file attributes and face attributes. And it > mentions terminal attributes (in passing - there is no explanation > or description of them), but it is silent about monitor attributes. > The doc for this feature or collection of features (?) is hopelessly > incomplete and confused. One can only make wild guesses as to what > is meant and what this is all about. The current draft of the Elisp manual begins like this: @node Multiple Physical Monitors @section Multiple Physical Monitors @cindex multiple physical monitors On some ``multi-monitor'' setups, a single graphical display outputs to more than one physical monitor. You can get some kinds of information on each physical monitor to examine the current monitor configuration. Because the monitor configuration can be changed dynamically in general, you should avoid reusing the information obtained some time ago. Information on each physical monitor is represented as ``attributes'', an alist of attribute keys and values as follows: @table @code @item geometry ... YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 05 21:39:55 2013 Received: (at 14801) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jul 2013 01:39:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33183 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvHTe-00010n-Rg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 21:39:55 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:28954) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvHTd-00010X-0l for 14801@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 21:39:53 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r661dkSf028663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 6 Jul 2013 01:39:47 GMT Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r661djL5007551 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 6 Jul 2013 01:39:45 GMT Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r661diFq007542; Sat, 6 Jul 2013 01:39:45 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4e440cf0-eec8-485a-a00f-7710263e6677@default> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 18:39:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu Subject: RE: bug#14801: 24.3.50; Document monitor attributes (e.g., `workarea' and `mm-size') References: In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14801 Cc: 14801@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) > > Monitor attributes are partially documented in `C-h f > > display-monitor-attributes-list'. They should also be (fully) > > documented in the Elisp manual. >=20 > Actually I was preparing for that. Great. Thanks for working on it. > See the bottom of this mail. >=20 > > Even in the doc string of d-m-a-l, the description is incomplete and > > needs to be filled out. >=20 > > Attribute `workareas' is described only in terms of "the workarea". > > There is no explanation of what is meant by "workarea" (which should > > presumably be two words, BTW). >=20 > While I was creating the docstring, I actually looked for the > definition of "workarea" in EWMH on which the implementation is based. > Unfortunately, it only says as "work area". >=20 > http://standards.freedesktop.org/wm-spec/1.3/ar01s03.html#id3075721 >=20 > But I've just found the GDK documentation has some explanation: "The > work area should be considered when positioning menus and similar > popups, to avoid placing them below panels, docks or other desktop > components." >=20 > https://developer.gnome.org/gdk3/3.8/GdkScreen.html#gdk-screen-get- > monitor-workarea >=20 > If it is allowed to use "panels", "docks" or "desktop components" > without their definitions, probably similar explanation of "work area" > can be provided. Thanks for trying to find out what it is. I don't understand, myself, but I'm not going to spend the time necessary to study this. What you might want to do, especially if things will remain only partly explained, is to refer readers to some such external reference for more info. I had no idea, for example, that this involved something called a work area that is defined externally (e.g. as part of a standard or similar). I thought it was just an Emacs thing. If it is only Emacs then we really need to specify it. But if it is defined elsewhere then we can just summarize and point to the external description for more information. > > Attribute `mm-size' is described only as "the width and height in > > millimeters". It's all very nice to say what the units are, but > > what is it that is being measured? The width & height of what? If > > it is the "work area" (whatever that might be) then say so > > explicitly. >=20 > Of the monitor. I thought it was obvious from the context. But I can > add "of the physical monitor" for clarity. Yes, thanks. > > Beyond all this, what on Earth IS a monitor "attribute"? Is it > > supposed to be the same thing as a frame parameter? >=20 > No. It is an alist describing some kinds of information about current > configuration of each physical monitor. I named it after "file > attributes". That's fine. Please just say that then: it is an alist of... And give a little more information to give a better idea. Just substituting "some kinds of information" for "attribute" won't get us very far. > The current draft of the Elisp manual begins like this: >=20 > @node Multiple Physical Monitors > @section Multiple Physical Monitors > @cindex multiple physical monitors >=20 > On some ``multi-monitor'' setups, a single graphical display outputs > to more than one physical monitor. You can get some kinds of > information on each physical monitor to examine the current monitor > configuration. Because the monitor configuration can be changed > dynamically in general, you should avoid reusing the information > obtained some time ago. >=20 > Information on each physical monitor is represented as > ``attributes'', an alist of attribute keys and values as follows: Sounds better already. Call them "monitor attributes", to be even clearer. Thx. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 05 22:49:06 2013 Received: (at 14801-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jul 2013 02:49:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33298 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvIYb-0003Yo-K2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 22:49:05 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:46427 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvIYZ-0003Yb-0r for 14801-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 22:49:03 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UvIYY-0008Ui-31; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 22:49:02 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: 14801-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#14801: 24.3.50; Document monitor attributes (e.g., `workarea' and `mm-size') References: X-Spook: plutonium M-14 Taiwan quarter North Korea rail gun X-Ran: ,e4;5)D640FG7j[d*?6merA$E9N"26KUEsN&X>"NT2Hh~Gy"ozWSx+3B@jgAT3cn+sjq:` X-Hue: white X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2013 22:49:01 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 5 Jul 2013 13:30:53 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <75k3l4qu76.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -5.2 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14801-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.2 (-----) No need for bug reports about documenting new features that are in NEWS without +++/--- markup. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 06 04:48:36 2013 Received: (at 14801) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jul 2013 08:48:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33609 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvOAW-0000zg-El for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2013 04:48:36 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:59120) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvOAS-0000zH-TF for 14801@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2013 04:48:34 -0400 Received: from [62.47.50.1] ([62.47.50.1]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0LwW8p-1U94dy1YQp-018NYd; Sat, 06 Jul 2013 10:48:09 +0200 Message-ID: <51D7D9BE.6040406@gmx.at> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2013 10:47:58 +0200 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 To: YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu Subject: Re: bug#14801: 24.3.50; Document monitor attributes (e.g., `workarea' and `mm-size') References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:2yXiEKAllnWm6lr06H+veQ5RSyfP+Cmp374u4Lg/gK5caCzqqEC tZO/Jl6yfIMajqh87RYc5qf2gPU5h79GA++cyrd8tQAvH7IKcHjQfDPsybjcc6UZ08zM2RE oxAW3Y8+kVlywMVBQR2xtY5Tm56qAkLpEqWDiAMUni2qIq8Ld/zGjyULJ13bdtx858R7nm3 4E4BTsYfqzMxfrv9y0gMQ== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14801 Cc: 14801@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) > The current draft of the Elisp manual begins like this: > > @node Multiple Physical Monitors > @section Multiple Physical Monitors > @cindex multiple physical monitors Since to my knowledge the Elisp manual does nowhere talk about single physical monitors I'd suggest to drop the term "multiple" here. Moreover, the terms "screen" and "display" should be related to "monitors". martin From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:54:04 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2013 11:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator