From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 27 13:09:04 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jun 2013 17:09:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45512 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UsFgu-00077h-9D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 13:09:04 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:38657) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UsFgq-00076u-8b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 13:09:02 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UsFgg-0004It-HQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 13:08:55 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_05, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:44927) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UsFgg-0004Io-FA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 13:08:50 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40348) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UsFgd-0007Am-52 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 13:08:48 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UsFgb-0004I8-WA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 13:08:47 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:31554) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UsFgb-0004I1-Pi for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 13:08:45 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r5RH2OCx029726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 17:02:25 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r5RH8g0Y016558 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 17:08:43 GMT Received: from abhmt119.oracle.com (abhmt119.oracle.com [141.146.116.71]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r5RH8gQQ016546 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 17:08:42 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 10:08:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) emacs -Q (defadvice isearch-forward (before isearch+-doc activate) " Isearch Plus =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ...") `C-h f isearch-forward' does not show this addition to the doc string at all. In Emacs 24.3 (and prior releases) there is no such bug. Furthermore, in the dev snapshot, you see this from `C-h f': :around advice: `ad-Advice-isearch-forward' That should NOT be shown. That is internal, implementation info. It is also incorrect. The advice is :before, not :around. And besides missing the added doc string text, this text that introduces it is also missing (present in Emacs 24.3 and prior, where the first line is bright red and bold): This function is advised. Before-advice `isearch+-doc': That is user-friendly info, and it is correct (:before, not :around). In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2013-06-20 on ODIEONE Bzr revision: 113100 eliz@gnu.org-20130620173624-w9v620tog4yacftk Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/Devel/emacs/binary --enable-checking=3Dyes,glyphs CFLAGS=3D-O0 -g3 LDFLAGS=3D-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib CPPFLAGS=3D-Ic:/Devel/emacs/include' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 27 14:15:33 2013 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jun 2013 18:15:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45599 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UsGjE-0001Dk-Ct for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 14:15:32 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.182]:54416) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UsGjB-0001DP-3R; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 14:15:29 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EABK/CFFMCppA/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh8BBVYjEAs0EhQYDSSIJMEtkQoDpHqBXoMT X-IPAS-Result: Av8EABK/CFFMCppA/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh8BBVYjEAs0EhQYDSSIJMEtkQoDpHqBXoMT X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="17311765" Received: from 76-10-154-64.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.154.64]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 27 Jun 2013 14:15:17 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id E77656BCBC; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 14:15:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 14:15:22 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Thu, 27 Jun 2013 10:08:41 -0700 (PDT)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control Cc: 14734-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) tags 14734 wontfix thanks > :around advice: `ad-Advice-isearch-forward' [...] > It is also incorrect. The advice is :before, not :around. It is correct: the ad-Advice-isearch-forward advice is an around advice (and it is not your advice, it's internal as you say). If you click on it, you'll see your before advice, properly labeled. If you don't want to see the internal thingy, then use the new advice-add rather than the old defadvice. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 27 14:40:52 2013 Received: (at 14734-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jun 2013 18:40:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45636 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UsH7j-00036J-NY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 14:40:52 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:26858) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UsH7d-00035m-Tl for 14734-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 14:40:46 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r5RIYJRS023413 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 27 Jun 2013 18:34:21 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r5RIebcx006400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Jun 2013 18:40:38 GMT Received: from abhmt119.oracle.com (abhmt119.oracle.com [141.146.116.71]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r5RIebXA014365; Thu, 27 Jun 2013 18:40:37 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9cf39b5d-d100-4b72-bf78-95f6cee0d8c0@default> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 11:40:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier Subject: RE: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) References: In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734-done Cc: 14734-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) > tags 14734 wontfix > thanks >=20 > > :around advice: `ad-Advice-isearch-forward' > > It is also incorrect. The advice is :before, not :around. >=20 > It is correct: the ad-Advice-isearch-forward advice is an around advice > (and it is not your advice, it's internal as you say). > If you click on it, you'll see your before advice, properly labeled. >=20 > If you don't want to see the internal thingy, then use the new > advice-add rather than the old defadvice. How can you close this bug? Did you read the whole report? The addition to the doc string, which is the only point of this particular = advice, is MISSING from the output of C-h f. The added text should appear = at the end of the original doc string, seamlessly. Please read the whole report and try to control your knee jerks. From unknown Thu Jun 19 14:13:13 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 17:34:02 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 28 13:40:09 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jun 2013 17:40:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47196 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UsceW-0006gi-8B for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 13:40:08 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:17551) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UsceS-0006g5-Ku for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 13:40:05 -0400 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r5SHdu4k005764 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 28 Jun 2013 17:39:57 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r5SHdtpk028656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Jun 2013 17:39:56 GMT Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r5SHdtZI021482; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 17:39:55 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 10:39:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier Subject: RE: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) References: <9cf39b5d-d100-4b72-bf78-95f6cee0d8c0@default> In-Reply-To: <9cf39b5d-d100-4b72-bf78-95f6cee0d8c0@default> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: 14734@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) > > If you don't want to see the internal thingy, then use the new > > advice-add rather than the old defadvice. So you introduce a regression in user-visible behavior that degrades the user interface, with the idea that that will encourage use of your new advice replacement over traditional defadvice? Is that it? Using traditional advice to add to a doc string has always worked seamlessly: a user saw a single display of help text that included both the original doc and any doc added by advice, seamlessly. The change introduced is horrible for users. Now they see only the original doc string, plus a link that will be incomprehensible to many (so skipped over by them): :around advice: `ad-Advice-isearch-forward' And if they do happen to click that uninviting link then they get an even more incomprehensible page of internal, advice-oriented code and unintelligible text: ad-Advice-isearch-forward is a Lisp function. (ad-Advice-isearch-forward AD--ADDOIT-FUNCTION &optional REGEXP-P NO-RECURSIVE-EDIT) Advice function assembled by advice.el. Before-advice `isearch+-doc': =20 Isearch Plus =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ... What they should see for `C-h f isearch-forward', and what they have always seen in the past, is the original `isearch-forward' doc together with the added doc from advising - it is just appended: Isearch Plus =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ... Emacs did that by design. You have broken that. Not only can Emacs do better, it always HAS. This is a real step backward for users. Intentional or not. I'm reopening the bug. I hope you will seriously consider reverting the misguided changes that introduced this regression. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 28 16:44:40 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jun 2013 20:44:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47323 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UsfX5-0005C5-Ud for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 16:44:40 -0400 Received: from mail-lb0-f176.google.com ([209.85.217.176]:51570) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UsfX2-0005Bk-PA for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 16:44:37 -0400 Received: by mail-lb0-f176.google.com with SMTP id z5so1243283lbh.21 for <14734@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 13:44:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type:x-antivirus:x-antivirus-status; bh=jxg8l32oaNGjsNyi95iyIC2aggxqY/LDq6xAuuzlVq0=; b=FTydV5YR6BwUlTGKOK+6bNflV1Fv+Gg6HStmIx6cTilDIDDAqZX+/IUwNGZzaVJhsP 6LEjTBjJP+YqtZBERqFtvorPTHVhly9Qz3dvK7wWCAEEED1KgMIWW8Mme8wJDZCGd4/M Qxufd0Ah+jAlPxy2Oz/jlii9AwGizfXav1BDg0w/tNXTQmr3BJbTkvRQOx4mLQoeqiID BdP6gdwox3tv9auEOplAcKj4EvMF/Fn6PEvd9uXQsF7xw9WMWbVq3v8FbeBhZsDmhw4/ NJfSEdfBSqqBo/voXkDPG8iMJhxUY0HQkZSLanBYnjEaUAmctc0wULhOo5WJOieXFtLB t/jQ== X-Received: by 10.112.218.100 with SMTP id pf4mr7374760lbc.2.1372452270368; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 13:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SOL ([178.252.98.87]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 8sm2549894lbn.9.2013.06.28.13.44.28 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Jun 2013 13:44:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Dmitry Gutov To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) References: <9cf39b5d-d100-4b72-bf78-95f6cee0d8c0@default> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2013 00:44:29 +0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 28 Jun 2013 10:39:54 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87a9mat176.fsf@yandex.ru> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (windows-nt) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 130628-1, 28.06.2013), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: 14734@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) (Not Stefan.) Drew Adams writes: > The change introduced is horrible for users. Now they see only > the original doc string, plus a link that will be incomprehensible > to many (so skipped over by them): You're overdramatizing. It's less convenient, but far from "horrible". > Not only can Emacs do better, it always HAS. This is a real step > backward for users. Intentional or not. I'm reopening the bug. > I hope you will seriously consider reverting the misguided changes > that introduced this regression. It's obviously the result of advice.el being re-implemented using nadvice.el, for backward compatibility. Having a minor regression in functionality in this kind of situation is fairly normal. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 28 17:57:08 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jun 2013 21:57:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47364 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UsgfD-0007GU-BV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 17:57:07 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:22084) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UsgfA-0007Fx-6o for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 17:57:05 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r5SLocIE023320 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 28 Jun 2013 21:50:38 GMT Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r5SLuu6h016808 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Jun 2013 21:56:56 GMT Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r5SLutIl016796; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 21:56:55 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <45e03b9a-0b57-4ce9-b4da-04060fd902f7@default> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 14:56:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Dmitry Gutov Subject: RE: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) References: <9cf39b5d-d100-4b72-bf78-95f6cee0d8c0@default> <87a9mat176.fsf@yandex.ru> In-Reply-To: <87a9mat176.fsf@yandex.ru> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: 14734@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) > > The change introduced is horrible for users. Now they see only > > the original doc string, plus a link that will be incomprehensible > > to many (so skipped over by them): >=20 > You're overdramatizing. It's less convenient, but far from "horrible". >=20 > > Not only can Emacs do better, it always HAS. This is a real step > > backward for users. Intentional or not. I'm reopening the bug. > > I hope you will seriously consider reverting the misguided changes > > that introduced this regression. >=20 > It's obviously the result of advice.el being re-implemented using > nadvice.el, for backward compatibility. Having a minor regression in > functionality in this kind of situation is fairly normal. If your point of view is only that of an implementor, you see only "less convenient", "minor regression", and "fairly normal". You see the regression as just "a result of ... being reimplemented", as if design and the user experience do not matter. Implementation leads. If your point of view is that of a user, the result is a real step backward and, yes, pretty horrible. The design should lead, for users. One opinion, of course. And just why did something already implemented (and stable for years) need to be REimplemented "for backward compatibility"? Why did adding something new and different and presumably better require ALSO reimplementing something that was already, by definition, backward compatible? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 28 18:19:22 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jun 2013 22:19:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47384 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ush0k-0007wk-3g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 18:19:22 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:56195) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ush0h-0007wS-Vg for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 18:19:20 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([2.201.213.111]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb001) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M7Kek-1U4s2L3tbS-00x6xp; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 00:19:12 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) References: <9cf39b5d-d100-4b72-bf78-95f6cee0d8c0@default> <87a9mat176.fsf@yandex.ru> <45e03b9a-0b57-4ce9-b4da-04060fd902f7@default> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2013 00:19:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: <45e03b9a-0b57-4ce9-b4da-04060fd902f7@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 28 Jun 2013 14:56:55 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87txkh515w.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:JqcYy2SU529RM/p6Fr0EcRuLj1ZfdYwDogGbpTjhRFLziPeL8vJ Htf3Ofn8EyqtYEzy8Fwspi5DCzvIu84VZ6e2vxsTtpqqdqWiDaJHyvI1AreRp90qUhgC+q5 UQCcgATnHz9FgGuaJQOxO3uRJ/63kgwey7KApPKvFtPafYstLjUqnWoOWyfHYjb4vUu6i20 kSB5MMXYNeARzgUOxNZJg== X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: 14734@debbugs.gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) Drew Adams writes: > And just why did something already implemented (and stable for years) > need to be REimplemented "for backward compatibility"? Why did adding > something new and different and presumably better require ALSO > reimplementing something that was already, by definition, backward > compatible? I had the same question - since reimplementing should have been a bit of work. But maintaining the reimplementation is probably much easier than doing so for the old package, so I can understand this decision. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 28 18:27:36 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jun 2013 22:27:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47392 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ush8i-0008Bc-0V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 18:27:36 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:51783) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ush8e-0008BN-6A for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 18:27:32 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([2.201.213.111]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb004) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MhOpG-1Uf28k2IL4-00Mb4R; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 00:27:25 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: 14734@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) References: Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2013 00:27:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Thu, 27 Jun 2013 14:15:22 -0400") Message-ID: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:f4s0dP6u5OcL0ENbhryth4FbCNatJc9d6mscA8XPcpaL4beC0BI DnhKZ4zJ/jFEbsX4LYDBFbY5GXsGNnNWvUWQyyOdr2ghehvNVSCJkeih7ySn83mOPTl+h8l 61gIAwfoqhTa0WqRXL9YxQ8lXsnmeo/9oxQ1RtcNXgg7rv07PMHQY6Bl5UM00ZQTSci4pma i0j66bEXNAVK0HFbh6qmQ== X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) Stefan Monnier writes: > > :around advice: `ad-Advice-isearch-forward' > [...] > > It is also incorrect. The advice is :before, not :around. > > It is correct: the ad-Advice-isearch-forward advice is an around advice > (and it is not your advice, it's internal as you say). > If you click on it, you'll see your before advice, properly labeled. > > If you don't want to see the internal thingy, then use the new > advice-add rather than the old defadvice. Let me add that advice.el is not yet obsolete, and the manual still explains the old advice.el. We should try reach a consistent state, i.e. C-h f should report information according to the package the user is told to use. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 28 19:21:30 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jun 2013 23:21:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47416 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ushyr-0001Ih-Ax for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 19:21:29 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.182]:16576) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ushyo-0001IJ-A0 for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 19:21:27 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EABK/CFFMCppA/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMFCws0EhQYDSSIHgbBLZEKA6R6gV6DEw X-IPAS-Result: Av8EABK/CFFMCppA/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMFCws0EhQYDSSIHgbBLZEKA6R6gV6DEw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="17421606" Received: from 76-10-154-64.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO fmsmemgm.homelinux.net) ([76.10.154.64]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 28 Jun 2013 19:21:14 -0400 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 59EDAAE2E1; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 19:21:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Michael Heerdegen Subject: Re: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) Message-ID: References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 19:21:19 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sat, 29 Jun 2013 00:27:21 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: 14734@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > Let me add that advice.el is not yet obsolete, Indeed, but it's only a question of time. > and the manual still explains the old advice.el. That's a bug that needs fixing, yes. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 28 21:37:51 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jun 2013 01:37:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47525 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Usk6o-0005Sh-LR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 21:37:50 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:28666) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Usk6k-0005SM-Qh for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 21:37:47 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r5T1VKc1002427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 29 Jun 2013 01:31:21 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r5T1bc88008705 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 29 Jun 2013 01:37:39 GMT Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r5T1bcHL008702; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 01:37:38 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 18:37:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier , Michael Heerdegen Subject: RE: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: 14734@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) > > Let me add that advice.el is not yet obsolete, >=20 > Indeed, but it's only a question of time. So much for the argument about "backward compatibility". N'importe quoi. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 28 22:09:22 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jun 2013 02:09:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47544 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UskbJ-0006XE-Mg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 22:09:21 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.182]:5253) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UskbG-0006Ww-Pp for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 22:09:19 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EABK/CFFMCppA/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMQCzQSFBgNJIgeBsEtkQoDpHqBXoMT X-IPAS-Result: Av8EABK/CFFMCppA/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMQCzQSFBgNJIgeBsEtkQoDpHqBXoMT X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="17428238" Received: from 76-10-154-64.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.154.64]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 28 Jun 2013 22:09:07 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 52F4E6A6BC; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 22:09:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) Message-ID: References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 22:09:12 -0400 In-Reply-To: <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 28 Jun 2013 18:37:38 -0700 (PDT)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , 14734@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) >> > Let me add that advice.el is not yet obsolete, >> Indeed, but it's only a question of time. > So much for the argument about "backward compatibility". What kind of ass comment is that? You know full well that "obsolete" does not mean "not backward compatible". Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 28 22:28:47 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jun 2013 02:28:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47558 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Usku6-00076R-KJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 22:28:46 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:36715) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Usku4-00076A-UB for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 22:28:45 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r5T2MI4R032486 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 29 Jun 2013 02:22:19 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r5T2Sakg003414 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 29 Jun 2013 02:28:37 GMT Received: from abhmt117.oracle.com (abhmt117.oracle.com [141.146.116.69]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r5T2SaFS003411; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 02:28:36 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <49fae9c3-c59c-4b08-84f0-24dc9935b345@default> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 19:28:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier Subject: RE: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , 14734@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) > >> > Let me add that advice.el is not yet obsolete, > >> Indeed, but it's only a question of time. > > So much for the argument about "backward compatibility". >=20 > What kind of ass comment is that? ? > You know full well that "obsolete" does not mean "not backward > compatible". An argument was made that the REimplementation of something that worked well was done (was necessary?) to allow for backward compatibility. I was speaking to that argument. If that is really the reason for reimplementing the old, and the old is slated for obsolescence, then that extra "backward compatibility" work, which degrades the user experience, would not seem to be worth much, would it? I have my doubts that providing "backward compatibility" was the reason for the reimplementation, but I have no special insight into the reason. Clearly, someone went to some trouble to code the old anew, for some reason. The old code was already backward compatible, by definition. What was the reason that the `C-h f' behavior needed to change so negatively? Please don't say that it is a gift of backward compatibility. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jun 28 23:25:03 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jun 2013 03:25:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47589 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UslmY-0000Yd-1I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 23:25:02 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.182]:20630) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UslmS-0000YD-Vx for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 23:24:59 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EABK/CFFMCppA/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMFCws0EhQYDSSIHgbBLZEKA6R6gV6DEw X-IPAS-Result: Av8EABK/CFFMCppA/2dsb2JhbABEuzWDWRdzgh4BAQQBViMFCws0EhQYDSSIHgbBLZEKA6R6gV6DEw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.84,565,1355115600"; d="scan'208";a="17430556" Received: from 76-10-154-64.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([76.10.154.64]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 28 Jun 2013 23:24:45 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 96BDC67951; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 23:24:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) Message-ID: References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> <49fae9c3-c59c-4b08-84f0-24dc9935b345@default> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 23:24:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: <49fae9c3-c59c-4b08-84f0-24dc9935b345@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 28 Jun 2013 19:28:35 -0700 (PDT)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , 14734@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) > An argument was made that the REimplementation of something that > worked well was done (was necessary?) to allow for backward > compatibility. I was speaking to that argument. There has been no reimplementation (that would have been a waste of time, since it's a package planned to become obsolete). There's only been some adjustments to make it so that the two advice packages don't step on each other's feet. More specifically, the old advice.el was made to work on top of the new nadvice.el (the total size of the the new advice.el and nadvice.el is about the same as the old advice.el). The old advice.el could be reimplemented to use nadvice more directly (e.g. so that each defadvice turns into a single advice-add, rather than bundling all defadvice into a single advice-add), which would solve some of your complaints, but it's a lot of work and would probably break more backward compatibility because it'd be difficult to preserve some details of advice.el's semantics. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 29 16:30:03 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jun 2013 20:30:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48529 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ut1mT-0003ud-OF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 16:30:02 -0400 Received: from mail-wi0-f180.google.com ([209.85.212.180]:52212) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ut1mR-0003u2-6F for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 16:29:59 -0400 Received: by mail-wi0-f180.google.com with SMTP id c10so1916057wiw.7 for <14734@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 13:29:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=6zH56EOxT2hxDALfruB4AsGICP0Cxb8HrYE66A+WVKM=; b=occG4geweEVsXAK90ilWzpU6t5py3VLn4+t59pdsSvyyHi7vnxnZOF8LwjVQ7n/eF2 IBmOwkd38TolB7+BwTau6cFWZSjFTMk5xV/0+uAUbnUGY3MpTJM+92k+Nj8Uy8Ojw9EO M49lYQINs3OqPehP7OsqmYFMx5DJDDjxi7OjYO3trtN32a+CkfOz9Ga4+V08EuawpgZp cXD6dDAhGruPmDpArNFPTPQabYsVAGDCtaGXNjap1o9DCX18OSlNoT8NzTOSPViIiBYr qQe3nxwd2zaXpSdEvRBXfrygjlxYZmgzko/hD0fpEOkxEJbc6T649R+sOr7dyQxa/8+G 1P3Q== X-Received: by 10.194.20.97 with SMTP id m1mr15291158wje.31.1372537793448; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 13:29:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.142.4 with HTTP; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 13:29:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> <49fae9c3-c59c-4b08-84f0-24dc9935b345@default> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2013 22:29:13 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) To: Stefan Monnier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , 14734@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 5:24 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > The old advice.el could be reimplemented to use nadvice more directly > (e.g. so that each defadvice turns into a single advice-add, rather > than bundling all defadvice into a single advice-add), which would solve > some of your complaints, but it's a lot of work and would probably break > more backward compatibility because it'd be difficult to preserve some > details of advice.el's semantics. FWIW, I like a lot the new advice system and I understand why does not make sense to spend much time with the old advices (I'm quite happy to see the end of ad-do-it and other clumsy macros). But I also agree with Drew that the current doctrings for adviced functions are horrible and a big step backwards for users. J From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jun 29 21:39:34 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jun 2013 01:39:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48686 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ut6c1-0004dT-OL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 21:39:34 -0400 Received: from chene.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.20]:40043) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Ut6bz-0004dK-4z for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 21:39:31 -0400 Received: from fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by chene.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id r5U1dTnp025649; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 21:39:29 -0400 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id E78E7AE2E1; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 21:39:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Juanma Barranquero Subject: Re: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) Message-ID: References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> <49fae9c3-c59c-4b08-84f0-24dc9935b345@default> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2013 21:39:28 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Juanma Barranquero's message of "Sat, 29 Jun 2013 22:29:13 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4624=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9362 : core <4624> : streams <991378> : uri <1462508> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , 14734@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) > But I also agree with Drew that the current doctrings for adviced > functions are horrible and a big step backwards for users. Patches welcome, Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 05 10:50:34 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jul 2013 14:50:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60285 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Uv7LF-0007F7-FV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 10:50:33 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:28802) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Uv7L7-0007ET-8n for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 10:50:28 -0400 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r65EoIjt031533 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 5 Jul 2013 14:50:19 GMT Received: from userz7021.oracle.com (userz7021.oracle.com [156.151.31.85]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r65EoGxM012409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 5 Jul 2013 14:50:16 GMT Received: from abhmt104.oracle.com (abhmt104.oracle.com [141.146.116.56]) by userz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r65EoFh5029887; Fri, 5 Jul 2013 14:50:15 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <5c00eebb-f58f-4d6f-a648-d10fbd11d7cf@default> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 07:50:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier , Juanma Barranquero Subject: RE: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> <49fae9c3-c59c-4b08-84f0-24dc9935b345@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , 14734@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) > > But I also agree with Drew that the current doctrings for adviced > > functions are horrible and a big step backwards for users. >=20 > Patches welcome, The problem is not doc strings but the regression in user interaction. Perhaps that is what Juanma meant: what the user sees via `C-h f'. The patch for that is to revert the changes that caused the regression. There is nothing wrong with providing a new advice mechanism, and a better one is certainly welcome. Thank you for working on that. There is something very wrong, however, if doing that ruins the user interface. Advising functions provides a Lisp feature that is usable by Lisp users. But ALL users make use of `C-h f', and often, and the changes made to facilitate introducing the new advice have (apparently) broken the user experience with `C-h f'. This is a serious regression that deserves to be taken seriously. The code that introduced the regression should be backed out immediately, if fixing it now would be too onerous. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 05 10:58:16 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jul 2013 14:58:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60305 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Uv7Sh-0007en-Ow for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 10:58:16 -0400 Received: from mail-ea0-f173.google.com ([209.85.215.173]:41087) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Uv7Se-0007eM-8X for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 10:58:13 -0400 Received: by mail-ea0-f173.google.com with SMTP id g15so1528743eak.32 for <14734@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 07:58:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=0IYmxCtZ3m0kyEzy6PJza8soHQ1AkJIsBqnNCkh2MVo=; b=m3fEDYIqHr97VY1kNlIkfQwmJ5CVVMb2hhMDRIWK0TGDF1O4qS1+zFGh0mb1L7fJth 21srcJCh1pd5GqW5hbSbgHIKBcE26EJVRz8WKhqR5CdLv0uMw4oHSen80QtzIeaU3/BS uZv8gjhsZMFgpFp+1GlCzfQQFQPP1Hhodp5UpAJzhXJnePSn0yHnUAvmSKPjKuwgNwYJ Cr2+bgDg/HzSGkTFwJHTrXxlg6SyXfNv1AQPk5LWo5KnGrCg7TxpZabNbo6mfqAbxX4F vsc7OGPmYeXFZ8OmKAqYa2+BlmQu0q+SIr1vk30CPVI27lGg0dMQ9ahj4yXDRA6cLupk hwOg== X-Received: by 10.14.218.8 with SMTP id j8mr12606370eep.129.1373036286230; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 07:58:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.142.4 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Jul 2013 07:57:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5c00eebb-f58f-4d6f-a648-d10fbd11d7cf@default> References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> <49fae9c3-c59c-4b08-84f0-24dc9935b345@default> <5c00eebb-f58f-4d6f-a648-d10fbd11d7cf@default> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 16:57:26 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , 14734@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > Perhaps that is what Juanma meant: what the user sees via `C-h f'. Yes. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 05 18:44:34 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jul 2013 22:44:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32990 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvEjy-0002lw-8s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 18:44:34 -0400 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:44251) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvEjw-0002lo-F6 for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 18:44:32 -0400 Received: from fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id r65MiRMp027305; Fri, 5 Jul 2013 18:44:28 -0400 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 70DD5AE0C1; Fri, 5 Jul 2013 18:44:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) Message-ID: References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> <49fae9c3-c59c-4b08-84f0-24dc9935b345@default> <5c00eebb-f58f-4d6f-a648-d10fbd11d7cf@default> Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2013 18:44:26 -0400 In-Reply-To: <5c00eebb-f58f-4d6f-a648-d10fbd11d7cf@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 5 Jul 2013 07:50:13 -0700 (PDT)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4630=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9362 : core <4630> : streams <994713> : uri <1468141> X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Juanma Barranquero , 14734@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) > The patch for that is to revert the changes that caused the regression. If it's so easy, please send it along (but do test it first), Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 05 21:40:34 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jul 2013 01:40:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33188 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvHUG-00012y-FN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 21:40:33 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:28996) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvHUB-00012J-Ml for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jul 2013 21:40:28 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r661eKmJ029011 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 6 Jul 2013 01:40:21 GMT Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r661eJs2028680 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 6 Jul 2013 01:40:20 GMT Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r661eJiT009653; Sat, 6 Jul 2013 01:40:19 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <22a4419a-308e-4633-aba4-d85cfc0556e3@default> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 18:40:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier Subject: RE: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> <49fae9c3-c59c-4b08-84f0-24dc9935b345@default> <5c00eebb-f58f-4d6f-a648-d10fbd11d7cf@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Juanma Barranquero , 14734@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) > > The patch for that is to revert the changes that caused the regression. >=20 > If it's so easy, please send it along (but do test it first), Oh come on. No one said it was easy. Someone implemented the regressive code and should revert the regression s?he introduced. (It should have been obvious while implementing it that from a user point of view it would be a mistake.) The regression is not in the release (24.3) or prior. That's the good news= . From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 06 05:18:09 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jul 2013 09:18:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33632 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvOd7-0002LM-3C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2013 05:18:09 -0400 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:40777) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvOd4-0002LA-Od for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2013 05:18:07 -0400 Received: from fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id r669I21u014326; Sat, 6 Jul 2013 05:18:03 -0400 Received: by fmsmemgm.homelinux.net (Postfix, from userid 20848) id DFF12AE0C1; Sat, 6 Jul 2013 05:18:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) Message-ID: References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> <49fae9c3-c59c-4b08-84f0-24dc9935b345@default> <5c00eebb-f58f-4d6f-a648-d10fbd11d7cf@default> <22a4419a-308e-4633-aba4-d85cfc0556e3@default> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2013 05:18:01 -0400 In-Reply-To: <22a4419a-308e-4633-aba4-d85cfc0556e3@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 5 Jul 2013 18:40:17 -0700 (PDT)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 5 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-NAI-Spam-Rules: 2 Rules triggered GEN_SPAM_FEATRE=0.2, RV4630=0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9362 : core <4630> : streams <994994> : uri <1468578> X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Juanma Barranquero , 14734@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) > (It should have been obvious while implementing it that from a user > point of view it would be a mistake.) Yes, I'm simply an idiot, Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 06 16:22:42 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jul 2013 20:22:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35439 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvZ0E-0004Zx-4e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2013 16:22:42 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:45602) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1UvZ0B-0004Zj-QY for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jul 2013 16:22:40 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r66KMWfc003876 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 6 Jul 2013 20:22:33 GMT Received: from userz7022.oracle.com (userz7022.oracle.com [156.151.31.86]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r66KMV1l006519 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 6 Jul 2013 20:22:31 GMT Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by userz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r66KMUCC006513; Sat, 6 Jul 2013 20:22:31 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <79d15b84-e0a2-4967-bd32-1be3008af765@default> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2013 13:22:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier Subject: RE: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> <49fae9c3-c59c-4b08-84f0-24dc9935b345@default> <5c00eebb-f58f-4d6f-a648-d10fbd11d7cf@default> <22a4419a-308e-4633-aba4-d85cfc0556e3@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Juanma Barranquero , 14734@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > (It should have been obvious while implementing it that from > > a user point of view it would be a mistake.) >=20 > Yes, I'm simply an idiot Please calm down. No one questions your intelligence (as your sarcasm indicates you know full well). It's about effect on users; it's not only about implementation. And it is certainly not about you or about intelligence. Being brilliant does not mean that one never makes mistakes or always exercises the best judgment. "I'm smart, therefore I must be right" is not always a smart argument. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 20 19:27:16 2013 Received: (at 14734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Oct 2013 23:27:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59603 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VY2Oy-0007Yu-1J for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 20 Oct 2013 19:27:16 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:36561) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VY2Ov-0007Yd-BA for 14734@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 20 Oct 2013 19:27:13 -0400 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r9KNR6W1017744 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 20 Oct 2013 23:27:06 GMT Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r9KNR5Sw013881 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 20 Oct 2013 23:27:05 GMT Received: from abhmt108.oracle.com (abhmt108.oracle.com [141.146.116.60]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r9KNR4Rg020492; Sun, 20 Oct 2013 23:27:04 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2013 16:27:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Monnier Subject: RE: bug#14734: 24.3.50; REGRESSION: defadvice broken wrt doc strings (C-h f) References: <87ppv550s6.fsf@web.de> <309ce668-1d40-4865-b796-d6828f65a8d4@default> <49fae9c3-c59c-4b08-84f0-24dc9935b345@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 14734 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , 14734@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) > the old advice.el was made to work on top of the new nadvice.el (the > total size of the new advice.el and nadvice.el is about the same as > the old advice.el). But the new advice, and now the old advice too, since it is on top of the new, does NOT work. Specifically, there is this regression wrt doc strings. This should not be a `wont-fix' bug. It should be fixed. It should be fixed in the advice system that is documented in the manuals, which for now is still the "old" system (there is nothing about the nadvice stuff in the manuals). If the "new" system will at some point replace the old and itself be documented differently, instead of being only, as you say now, internal, then it too will need to be fixed wrt its handling of the doc string. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jan 07 21:21:24 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jan 2014 02:21:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41767 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W0iln-0005yw-S8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 21:21:24 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:53807) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1W0ilm-0005yp-6S for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 21:21:22 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W0ill-00061L-WD for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2014 21:21:22 -0500 Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 21:21:21 -0500 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 13581 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) forcemerge 14734 13581 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 28 18:41:08 2016 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2016 22:41:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53677 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avucN-0007C6-Th for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 18:41:08 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:38620) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avucM-0007Bx-OD for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 18:41:07 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avucK-0001Ee-F9 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 00:41:06 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 00:41:04 +0200 Message-Id: <87eg9p2w73.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #14070 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) forcemerge 14070 13581 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 23 17:07:29 2019 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 21:07:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37178 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iCVYP-000840-IW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 17:07:29 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:45648) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iCVYN-00083q-TW for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 17:07:28 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iCVYL-0003cG-8m for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 23:07:27 +0200 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 23:07:24 +0200 Message-Id: <87v9tivi0j.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #13581 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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