From unknown Tue Jun 24 22:39:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#14088: 24.3.50; Document or replace it in `substitute-command-keys' Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:56:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 14088 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 14088@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.13645725591281 (code B ref -1); Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:56:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Mar 2013 15:55:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51117 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1ULbem-0000KW-4n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:55:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:57893) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1ULbeg-0000KH-DM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:55:54 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ULbc8-0001rf-3Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:53:13 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, RP_MATCHES_RCVD, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:60454) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ULbc8-0001rb-12 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:53:12 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:40995) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ULbc5-00017y-5W for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:53:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ULbc3-0001qQ-DE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:53:09 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:37623) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ULbc3-0001qC-6d for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:53:07 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r2TFr5X2031747 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:53:06 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r2TFr4KW015749 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 15:53:05 GMT Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id r2TFr4tN018818 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 10:53:04 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.148.114) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 29 Mar 2013 08:53:04 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 08:52:59 -0700 Message-ID: <9642A640E98A4154A8F1AB3C372DB6C3@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Ac4slXyg+qq5dHe0QLKgyy+2paCXlw== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 208.118.235.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) emacs -Q Type in *scratch*: (substitute-command-keys "\\{isearch-mode-map}") C-u C-x C-e Search for "isearch-other-control-char". It is shown bound to the key C-h . This is technically correct, as corresponds to (define-key isearch-mode-map [t] 'isearch-other-control-char) But users will not understand the notation . It is mentioned nowhere in any Emacs manual. And there certainly is no function key `t'. If a user searches well enough and reads a bit, s?he might understand that here corresponds to this text about `define-key' in (elisp) `Changing Key Bindings': If KEY is `[t]', this sets the default binding in KEYMAP. When an event has no binding of its own, the Emacs command loop uses the keymap's default binding, if there is one. But users cannot be expected to do all that and make the necessary connections. User-friendly output here would use a simple description in place of . Something like "Default key binding". But such a user-friendly description should really be moved out of the list, putting it either before or after the list, since this is not a single binding of a specific key. This is a bit like our treatment of `Prefix command', but in reverse: in this case it is the key column that needs the general description. But the case of `C-h ' shows that we need some descriptive text that can be placed after a prefix key. So perhaps instead of "Default key binding" we could use "OTHER", making it a link to a sentence that says it stands for any key not otherwise defined. E.g., C-h OTHER with OTHER linked to "footnote" text like this: OTHER indicates any key not otherwise defined. An alternative would be to have the manuals introduce as meaning what we are currently using it for. That could be OK too, since one cannot define a function key `t' in any case. The manuals tell Lisp programmers what [t] means for `define-key', but they don't tell users what means as a key description. This alternative is perhaps not as helpful for a newbie as using something like C-h OTHER with an explanation. But it would be useful anyway, not just as an alternative here, but for completion of the doc. Something like (kbd "") might become less puzzling etc. One way or another, the current undocumented and unclear use of needs to be taken care of. In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2013-03-23 on VBOX Bzr revision: 112115 eliz@gnu.org-20130323093300-rjs0dgskxm9u0ya4 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 Configured using: `configure --with-gcc (4.7) --no-opt --enable-checking --cflags -IC:/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.10/include -IC:/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.10/src -IC:/emacs/libs/libpng-dev_1.4.3-1_win32/include -IC:/emacs/libs/zlib-dev_1.2.5-2_win32/include -IC:/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1-lib/include -IC:/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4-lib/include -IC:/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1-lib/include -IC:/emacs/libs/libxml2-2.7.8-w32-bin/include/libxml2 -IC:/emacs/libs/gnutls-3.1.10-w32/include -IC:/emacs/libs/libiconv-1.14-2-mingw32-dev/include' From unknown Tue Jun 24 22:39:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#14088: 24.3.50; Document or replace it in `substitute-command-keys' Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 23:13:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 14088 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 14088@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 14088-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B14088.14618851224343 (code B ref 14088); Thu, 28 Apr 2016 23:13:02 +0000 Received: (at 14088) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2016 23:12:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53710 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avv6I-00017p-2c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:12:02 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:38951) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avv6G-00017a-Cp for 14088@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Apr 2016 19:12:00 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avv6D-0001ZZ-U9; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 01:11:59 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <9642A640E98A4154A8F1AB3C372DB6C3@us.oracle.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 01:11:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: <9642A640E98A4154A8F1AB3C372DB6C3@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 29 Mar 2013 08:52:59 -0700") Message-ID: <87vb311g76.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) "Drew Adams" writes: > Type in *scratch*: > (substitute-command-keys "\\{isearch-mode-map}") > C-u C-x C-e > > Search for "isearch-other-control-char". It is shown bound to the key > C-h . I don't find that command at all in that keymap. Do you have a different recipe that displays this oddity? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Tue Jun 24 22:39:04 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#14088: 24.3.50; Document or replace it in `substitute-command-keys' Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:39:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 14088 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Cc: 14088@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 14088-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B14088.146194793019379 (code B ref 14088); Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:39:02 +0000 Received: (at 14088) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2016 16:38:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55628 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awBRK-00052V-EH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:38:50 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:23755) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awBRJ-00052H-8R for 14088@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:38:49 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u3TGchJB026609 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:38:43 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3TGcgG6019994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:38:43 GMT Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3TGcfKj006234; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 16:38:42 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1c56d9a1-5a44-4baf-bfdd-0f6a9c00116c@default> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 09:38:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <9642A640E98A4154A8F1AB3C372DB6C3@us.oracle.com> <87vb311g76.fsf@gnus.org> In-Reply-To: <87vb311g76.fsf@gnus.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > Type in *scratch*: > > (substitute-command-keys "\\{isearch-mode-map}") > > C-u C-x C-e > > > > Search for "isearch-other-control-char". It is shown bound to the key > > C-h . >=20 > I don't find that command at all in that keymap. Do you have a > different recipe that displays this oddity? You don't find it because this was (I see now) fixed in 24.4. I reported it for 24.3. Bug reports sometimes get ignored. And later sometimes someone else stumbles on the same bug. And sometimes it gets fixed, whether reported as a separate (duplicate) bug or not. AFAICT, this is fixed and can be closed. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 29 12:40:42 2016 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2016 16:40:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55632 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awBT7-00055g-Pq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:40:41 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:46757) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awBT5-00055W-Nq for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 12:40:40 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awBT3-00084F-8s for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2016 18:40:38 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 18:40:37 +0200 Message-Id: <87lh3wz7ui.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #14088 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) close 14088