From drew.adams@oracle.com Wed Nov 19 10:22:38 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.1 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FOURLA, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 19 Nov 2008 18:22:38 +0000 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAJIMYZX012862 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:22:36 -0800 Received: from mail.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:37202 helo=mx10.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L2rh2-0006JS-P4 for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:22:25 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L2rhA-0007t5-Gf for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:22:32 -0500 Received: from acsinet11.oracle.com ([141.146.126.233]:29771) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L2rhA-0007sr-0Q for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:22:32 -0500 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by acsinet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAJIN6wV007075 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:23:07 GMT Received: from acsmt704.oracle.com (acsmt704.oracle.com [141.146.40.82]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAJIMUK1019947 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:22:32 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:22:25 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:22:25 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Thread-Index: AclKc8VwH3ESAK4dT3ynxc8BmeiNdg== X-Source-IP: acsmt704.oracle.com [141.146.40.82] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A0B0205.49245963.0253:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) See for example these nodes of the Elisp manual: Cons Cell Type, Search-based Fontification (which should be called Search-Based Fontification, BTW). I'd suggest not making CAR and CDR uppercase. There is no need to do that; they are normal words of our vocabulary: speaking about "the cdr" is no different from speaking about "the cons" ("the cons cell"). The first time these terms are introduced (defined), then whatever convention (quotation marks, uppercase, italic - whatever it is) we normally use to introduce new terms should be followed, of course. But thereafter we should just write about conses, cars, and cdrs, using no special typography. Not CONSes, CARs, and CDRs, and not CONSES, CARS, and CDRS. Especially in a context, such as node Search-Based Fontification, where uppercase means something different, treating "car" and "cdr" as "CAR" and "CDR" is confusing: `(MATCHER . SUBEXP)' In this kind of element, MATCHER is either a regular expression or a function, as described above. The CDR, SUBEXP, specifies which subexpression of MATCHER should be highlighted (instead of the entire text that MATCHER matched). We wouldn't write "the CDR of the CONS". "the CDR of the cons" is no more appropriate. It's clearest to write "the car of the cons". Also, if we don't already do so (I didn't find it), then we should mention (e.g. in node Cons Cell Type) that "cons" is sometimes used as short for "cons cell": a cons is a cons cell. That will improve readability. The alternative of mentioning this is to make sure that we use "cons cell" each time. Naturally, whatever convention we use generally for Emacs vocabulary should be used for "car" and "cdr" too. I'm not sure what it is, but I know we don't use uppercase systematically for Emacs terminology: "The BUFFER displayed in the top WINDOW of the selected FRAME...". Similarly: "This cons, whose cdr is 42, has the symbol `foo' as its car", not "This CONS, whose CDR is 42, has the SYMBOL `foo' as its CAR". Car 54, where are you? Caveat: I'm looking at the doc in Info (in Emacs). I have no idea how these terms appear in print. In GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2008-11-08 on LENNART-69DE564 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (3.4) --no-opt --cflags -Ic:/g/include -fno-crossjumping' From eliz@gnu.org Wed Nov 19 11:34:19 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.3 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 19 Nov 2008 19:34:19 +0000 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAJJYCYH030732 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:34:13 -0800 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:43676) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L2soM-0002bq-8i for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:34:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L2soU-0001iN-HB for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:34:11 -0500 Received: from mtaout2.012.net.il ([84.95.2.4]:58256) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L2soU-0001hx-4a; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:34:10 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.i_mtaout2.012.net.il by i_mtaout2.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) id <0KAL00L00I9TK300@i_mtaout2.012.net.il>; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:36:06 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.113.18]) by i_mtaout2.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) with ESMTPA id <0KAL00COPIG51SO0@i_mtaout2.012.net.il>; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:36:05 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:34:15 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc In-reply-to: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams , 1381@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Solaris 9.1 > From: "Drew Adams" > Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:22:25 -0800 > Cc: > > See for example these nodes of the Elisp manual: Cons Cell Type, > Search-based Fontification (which should be called Search-Based > Fontification, BTW). > > I'd suggest not making CAR and CDR uppercase. They are not in uppercase, they are in "small caps" typeface (@sc in Texinfo markup). You are reading the Info manual, where @sc is rendered as uppercase, but in the printed manual it looks differently. From drew.adams@oracle.com Wed Nov 19 11:47:25 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 19 Nov 2008 19:47:25 +0000 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAJJlJ0Q002034 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:47:20 -0800 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:44188) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L2t13-0002oy-Uk for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:47:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L2t1C-0002tL-2K for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:47:18 -0500 Received: from rcsinet11.oracle.com ([148.87.113.123]:17666 helo=rgminet11.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L2t1B-0002tD-Jd; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:47:17 -0500 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAJJliFr023642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:47:45 GMT Received: from acsmt707.oracle.com (acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAJJl8D3010542; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:47:09 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:47:02 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" , <1381@debbugs.gnu.org> Cc: , References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:46:59 -0800 Message-ID: <004b01c94a7f$98491c40$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AclKfdt0GVG63hyASNmlzbQBt5mrzQAAYa5Q X-Source-IP: acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.49246D38.013C:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-CrossAssassin-Score: 2 > > See for example these nodes of the Elisp manual: Cons Cell Type, > > Search-based Fontification (which should be called Search-Based > > Fontification, BTW). > > > > I'd suggest not making CAR and CDR uppercase. > > They are not in uppercase, they are in "small caps" typeface (@sc in > Texinfo markup). You are reading the Info manual, where @sc is > rendered as uppercase, but in the printed manual it looks differently. I see. But is that normal for Emacs terminology? See what I wrote about cons, buffer, window, frame, symbol, etc. If this is intentional, feel free to close the bug. It seems odd to me, though - to me, these are normal Emacs terms. From eliz@gnu.org Wed Nov 19 12:05:38 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.3 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 19 Nov 2008 20:05:39 +0000 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAJK5ZF8007777 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:05:37 -0800 Received: from mail.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:44914 helo=mx10.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L2tIk-0003Lu-2O for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:05:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L2tIs-0004gd-K6 for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:05:35 -0500 Received: from mtaout7.012.net.il ([84.95.2.19]:32393) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L2tIs-0004gV-61; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:05:34 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.i-mtaout7.012.net.il by i-mtaout7.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0KAL00C00JMRA900@i-mtaout7.012.net.il>; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:07:20 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.113.18]) by i-mtaout7.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0KAL00CPAJW6DW60@i-mtaout7.012.net.il>; Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:07:19 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:05:29 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc In-reply-to: <004b01c94a7f$98491c40$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams , Richard Stallman Cc: 1381@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <004b01c94a7f$98491c40$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (1203?) > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: , > Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:46:59 -0800 > > > > I'd suggest not making CAR and CDR uppercase. > > > > They are not in uppercase, they are in "small caps" typeface (@sc in > > Texinfo markup). You are reading the Info manual, where @sc is > > rendered as uppercase, but in the printed manual it looks differently. > > I see. But is that normal for Emacs terminology? See what I wrote about cons, > buffer, window, frame, symbol, etc. > > If this is intentional, feel free to close the bug. It seems odd to me, though - > to me, these are normal Emacs terms. These were in the manual since a long time ago, so I'll let Richard answer this. From rms@gnu.org Thu Nov 20 06:26:26 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.1 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 20 Nov 2008 14:26:26 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAKEQNpZ004418 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:26:24 -0800 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L3AUB-0000Id-20 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:26:23 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L3AU9-0000Hx-NZ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:26:22 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=56323 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L3AU9-0000Hr-F0 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:26:21 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:40042) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3AU9-0007tk-6F for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:26:21 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L3ATy-0004HD-JJ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:26:10 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: "Richard M. Stallman" To: Eli Zaretskii , 1381@debbugs.gnu.org CC: drew.adams@oracle.com, 1381@debbugs.gnu.org, bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com, emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Eli Zaretskii on Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:34:15 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc Reply-to: rms@gnu.org References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:26:10 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) They are not in uppercase, they are in "small caps" typeface (@sc in Texinfo markup). You are reading the Info manual, where @sc is rendered as uppercase, but in the printed manual it looks differently. It may be a mistake to render @sc as upper case in Info because these words might get confused with variable names. (I don't know if that is a real problem.) From drew.adams@oracle.com Thu Nov 20 08:23:00 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.7 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 20 Nov 2008 16:23:01 +0000 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAKGMvPN002308 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:22:59 -0800 Received: from mail.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:57317 helo=mx10.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L3CIp-0007qS-6r for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:22:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3CIy-00076T-JL for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:22:57 -0500 Received: from rcsinet13.oracle.com ([148.87.113.125]:62304 helo=rgminet13.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3CIu-00075Q-Ka; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 11:22:53 -0500 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAKGMjoW027107 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:22:48 GMT Received: from acsmt702.oracle.com (acsmt702.oracle.com [141.146.40.80]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAKGMRfJ025884; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:22:28 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:22:21 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: , "'Eli Zaretskii'" , <1381@debbugs.gnu.org> Cc: , , References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:22:22 -0800 Message-ID: <00c601c94b2c$2b896a80$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AclLHC4E9zOSOCsYQxa50NL3XSN/VgAD81OA X-Source-IP: acsmt702.oracle.com [141.146.40.80] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A010204.49258EC0.0020:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-CrossAssassin-Score: 2 > They are not in uppercase, they are in "small caps" > typeface (@sc in > Texinfo markup). You are reading the Info manual, where @sc is > rendered as uppercase, but in the printed manual it looks > differently. > > It may be a mistake to render @sc as upper case in Info > because these words might get confused with variable names. > (I don't know if that is a real problem.) OK, that's one thing. But my question was whether these shouldn't simply be treated as normal Emacs terms - just like cons, buffer, symbol, and frame, after they have been introduced (defined). From eliz@gnu.org Thu Nov 20 12:24:01 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 20 Nov 2008 20:24:01 +0000 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAKKNwC9032559 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:24:00 -0800 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:37481) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L3G44-0007JC-5Q for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:23:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3G4D-0005Md-Ez for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:23:58 -0500 Received: from mtaout2.012.net.il ([84.95.2.4]:44163) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3G4D-0005MZ-3R; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:23:57 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.i_mtaout2.012.net.il by i_mtaout2.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) id <0KAN00H00F2XNL00@i_mtaout2.012.net.il>; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:25:54 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.113.18]) by i_mtaout2.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) with ESMTPA id <0KAN004I0FF59490@i_mtaout2.012.net.il>; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:25:54 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:23:55 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: rms@gnu.org Cc: 1381@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Solaris 9.1 > From: "Richard M. Stallman" > CC: drew.adams@oracle.com, 1381@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, > bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com, emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org, > bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:26:10 -0500 > > It may be a mistake to render @sc as upper case in Info > because these words might get confused with variable names. Maybe so, but the alternative (leave them in lower-case) is even worse. From drew.adams@oracle.com Thu Nov 20 12:28:41 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.7 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 20 Nov 2008 20:28:41 +0000 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAKKScNn001358 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:28:39 -0800 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:37671) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L3G8Y-0007RX-Ow for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:28:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3G8i-0005nu-Fa for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:28:36 -0500 Received: from acsinet12.oracle.com ([141.146.126.234]:60421) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3G8g-0005nZ-Aa; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:28:34 -0500 Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by acsinet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAKKSACk012195 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:28:11 GMT Received: from acsmt702.oracle.com (acsmt702.oracle.com [141.146.40.80]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAKKSZKY018928; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:28:36 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:28:19 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" , Cc: <1381@debbugs.gnu.org>, , References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:28:22 -0800 Message-ID: <004601c94b4e$88cf5070$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AclLTe+HBYjDmZ00TW2Fn4Jh5cYc7QAABvOQ In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt702.oracle.com [141.146.40.80] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4925C865.0111:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) > > It may be a mistake to render @sc as upper case in Info > > because these words might get confused with variable names. > > Maybe so, but the alternative (leave them in lower-case) is even worse. You spoke in terms of the rendering of @sc, about which I have no opinion. But just to clarify, did you also mean that "car" and "cons" should not be lowercase? Yes, I know you did not say that. But that is what my bug report was about, and I just want to be sure of what you're saying. Let's try to separate the issue of how @sc should be rendered from how car and cdr should be represented. Thx. From eliz@gnu.org Thu Nov 20 12:43:30 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 20 Nov 2008 20:43:30 +0000 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAKKhRQL005254 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:43:28 -0800 Received: from mail.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:38296 helo=mx10.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L3GMu-0008P5-Jo for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:43:16 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3GN3-0007IM-UL for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:43:26 -0500 Received: from mtaout1.012.net.il ([84.95.2.1]:23665) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3GN3-0007Hw-Bq; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:43:25 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.i-mtaout1.012.net.il by i-mtaout1.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0KAN00600FVNCD00@i-mtaout1.012.net.il>; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:45:07 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.113.18]) by i-mtaout1.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0KAN00J63GB5M550@i-mtaout1.012.net.il>; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:45:06 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:43:06 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc In-reply-to: <004601c94b4e$88cf5070$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Drew Adams Cc: rms@gnu.org, 1381@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <004601c94b4e$88cf5070$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Solaris 9.1 > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: <1381@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>, , > > Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:28:22 -0800 > > But just to clarify, did you also mean that "car" and "cons" should not be > lowercase? I don't know. I guess I'm not enough of a Lisper to have an opinion on that. I hoped that Richard will respond to that. > Let's try to separate the issue of how @sc should be rendered from how car and > cdr should be represented. Thx. One problem with saying just "car" is that it could be confused to mean an automobile. (I'm serious.) From drew.adams@oracle.com Thu Nov 20 12:57:18 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.7 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 20 Nov 2008 20:57:18 +0000 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAKKvFVt009026 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:57:16 -0800 Received: from mail.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:38829 helo=mx10.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L3GaG-0000V8-9Z for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:57:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3GaP-00009X-SE for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:57:14 -0500 Received: from rcsinet13.oracle.com ([148.87.113.125]:48557 helo=rgminet13.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3GaN-000098-Bd; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:57:11 -0500 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAKKvI4x001624 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:57:19 GMT Received: from acsmt707.oracle.com (acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAKKv32b017732; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:57:04 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:56:57 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" Cc: , <1381@debbugs.gnu.org>, , References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <004601c94b4e$88cf5070$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:57:00 -0800 Message-ID: <004c01c94b52$88c56890$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AclLUKqxxFElj21LSMWtSXIFLVszYwAATQ0g In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4925CF1B.0159:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-CrossAssassin-Score: 2 > > But just to clarify, did you also mean that "car" and > > "cons" should not be lowercase? > > I don't know. I guess I'm not enough of a Lisper to have an opinion > on that. I hoped that Richard will respond to that. > > > Let's try to separate the issue of how @sc should be > rendered from how car and > > cdr should be represented. Thx. > > One problem with saying just "car" is that it could be confused to > mean an automobile. (I'm serious.) OK, let's hope to hear from Richard. I don't think car as automobile is much of a problem, personally. This is not a big issue, in any case, especially if something is done to distinguish @sc so that there is no confusion with, say, parameter names. If that potential confusion is removed, then the remaining issue is mainly aesthetic: CDR is just ugly and unnecessary. But I'm OK with whatever is decided. From yavor@gnu.org Thu Nov 20 23:44:57 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RDNS_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 1381) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 21 Nov 2008 07:44:57 +0000 Received: from southway-varna.com ([213.91.219.2]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAL7irx3016875 for <1381@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:44:54 -0800 Received: from keel.southway-varna.com ([192.168.0.2]) by southway-varna.com with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1L3Qgz-0004Fv-MX; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:44:46 +0200 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=keel.southway-varna.com) by keel.southway-varna.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L3Qgy-0001cf-SS; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:44:40 +0200 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:44:40 +0200 Message-ID: <87vduhttef.GNU's_Not_Unix!%yavor@gnu.org> From: Yavor Doganov To: Eli Zaretskii , 1381@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <004601c94b4e$88cf5070$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> Mail-Followup-To: Eli Zaretskii , 1381@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.6 (Almost Unreal) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL/10.7 Emacs/22.2 (i486-pc-linux-gnu) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) Organization: The GNU Emacs Church (Bulgarian eparchy) X-Jabber-ID: doganov@jabber.minus273.org MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 192.168.0.2 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: yavor@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Tue, 09 Jan 2007 17:23:22 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on southway-varna.com) Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > One problem with saying just "car" is that it could be confused to > mean an automobile. (I'm serious.) Absolutely. We had a few reports from readers of http://gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html who complained that there's a typo. We changed it to car. From rms@gnu.org Fri Nov 21 07:17:54 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.2 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 21 Nov 2008 15:17:54 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mALFHp8n010055 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:17:53 -0800 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L3XlX-0006ER-CT for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:17:51 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L3XlU-0006EF-Vv for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:17:50 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=38418 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L3XlU-0006EC-Qr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:17:48 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:46551) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3XlU-0005Fw-Ra for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:17:48 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L3XlI-0002QC-MN; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:17:36 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: "Richard M. Stallman" To: "Drew Adams" CC: eliz@gnu.org, 1381@debbugs.gnu.org, bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com, emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org In-reply-to: <00c601c94b2c$2b896a80$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> (drew.adams@oracle.com) Subject: Re: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc Reply-to: rms@gnu.org References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <00c601c94b2c$2b896a80$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:17:36 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) OK, that's one thing. But my question was whether these shouldn't simply be treated as normal Emacs terms - just like cons, buffer, symbol, and frame, after they have been introduced (defined). The reason for using @sc on car and cdr is that they are acronyms. Those other terms are not acronyms. From drew.adams@oracle.com Fri Nov 21 07:28:46 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.7 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 1381) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 21 Nov 2008 15:28:46 +0000 Received: from rgminet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mALFSh4f012728 for <1381@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:28:44 -0800 Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mALFSr89006048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:28:55 GMT Received: from acsmt702.oracle.com (acsmt702.oracle.com [141.146.40.80]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mALFSnO8013670; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:28:50 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.53.10) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:28:33 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Yavor Doganov'" , "'Eli Zaretskii'" , <1381@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com><004601c94b4e$88cf5070$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <87vduhttef.GNU's_Not_Unix!%yavor@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:28:32 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c94bed$d0704200$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87vduhttef.GNU's_Not_Unix!%yavor@gnu.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Thread-Index: AclLrcTN3ozHGU/wScOe0KVe2KDTAAAPe6yw X-Source-IP: acsmt702.oracle.com [141.146.40.80] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4926D3A2.012A:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > > One problem with saying just "car" is that it could be confused to > > mean an automobile. (I'm serious.) > > Absolutely. We had a few reports from readers of > http://gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html who complained that there's a typo. > We changed it to car. I won't belabor the point, and, again, I'm OK with whatever is decided, but just for the record, that reference really argues exactly the _opposite_: 1. Unlike the Elisp manual, that speech does not define terms such as `car' that it uses. It is not intended to be a rigorous or complete description of the Lisp language and its terminology. `car' is used in that speech only in passing, with no explanation of what it is. This is a speech to a Lisp community, after all. The readers might not all be Lispians, of course, which is why it helps to use a special typeface when it is first encountered in reading. But Richard's use of `car' in no way explains what it is - he just uses it normally as if speaking to Lispians. That is quite different from the use of `car' in the Elisp manual, where it is defined clearly. 2. Even in that speech (its printed representation, which is all that can count for this topic), `car' is written as car _only the first time it is used_. Thereafter, it is written normally - no uppercase, no special typeface - just normal text, treating it as a normal word. So even when printing the speech for an audience that you know might be confused by the term (because of typo reports), you chose to use a special typeface for only the _first occurrence_. #2 is exactly what I proposed: Use whatever convention we normally employ to introduce (define) a term - or caps or whatever, and thereafter treat it as a normal word. From drew.adams@oracle.com Fri Nov 21 08:18:27 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FOURLA, HAS_BUG_NUMBER,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 21 Nov 2008 16:18:27 +0000 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mALGIOLH026643 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:18:25 -0800 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:43673) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L3Yhv-0007mQ-Ol for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:18:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3Yi6-0001th-Kt for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:18:23 -0500 Received: from rcsinet12.oracle.com ([148.87.113.124]:39781 helo=rgminet12.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L3Yi4-0001tD-Ay; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:18:20 -0500 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mALGHpue016686 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:17:52 GMT Received: from acsmt707.oracle.com (acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mALGI1lU020948; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:18:03 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.53.10) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:17:56 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: Cc: , <1381@debbugs.gnu.org>, , , References: <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> <00c601c94b2c$2b896a80$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:17:55 -0800 Message-ID: <003601c94bf4$b6921460$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Thread-Index: AclL7FUqM2fg+3jdS1uOneCGYMWF5QAAoZSA X-Source-IP: acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4926DF36.0171:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-CrossAssassin-Score: 2 > OK, that's one thing. But my question was whether these > shouldn't simply be treated as normal Emacs terms - just > like cons, buffer, symbol, and frame, after > they have been introduced (defined). > > The reason for using @sc on car and cdr is that they are acronyms. > Those other terms are not acronyms. I see. That makes sense, I guess, though I'm not sure it's important. (If we always stuck to that convention, then we might always write "EMACS" or "EMacS", not "Emacs". ;-)) FWIW, this is what Wikipedia says about the orthography of acronyms: The most common capitalization scheme seen with acronyms and initialisms is all-uppercase (all-caps), except for those few that have linguistically taken on an identity as regular words, with the acronymous etymology of the words fading into the background of common knowledge, such as has occurred with the words scuba, laser, and radar. That's the argument I'd make here: "car" and "cdr" have linguistically taken on an identity as regular words. The machine registers that were at the orgins of these terms are incidental to the current meanings, and knowledge of that historical relation is anecdotal. I see "cdr" (for Lispians) the same way I see "radar". We should encourage thinking of these as common terms, rather than as acronyms about machine registers. Rather than facilitating understanding, I think it gets in the way of understanding (and readability) to write "RADAR" and "CDR". From rgm@gnu.org Mon Dec 1 13:49:16 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.8 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,MISSING_SUBJECT, NOSUBJECT,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,VALID_BTS_CONTROL,X_DEBBUGS_NO_ACK autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at control) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Dec 2008 21:49:16 +0000 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mB1LnDMM000518 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:49:14 -0800 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L7GdM-0008SN-6S; Mon, 01 Dec 2008 16:48:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <18740.23488.148163.871830@fencepost.gnu.org> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:48:48 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: control X-Attribution: GM X-Mailer: VM (www.wonderworks.com/vm), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs) X-Hue: blue X-Ran: dHutS;PvtLT>]=Iut:H^~-r8Z3Uy7H*m]h8"Bg2|dzaL.X45OvG}(}e'-dvg'; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit reassign 1207 emacs,w32 reassign 140 emacs,python reassign 359 emacs,python reassign 1985 emacs,python reassign 1987 emacs,python reassign 881 emacs,python reassign 949 emacs,documentation reassign 957 emacs,documentation reassign 965 emacs,documentation reassign 1010 emacs,documentation reassign 1084 emacs,documentation reassign 1193 emacs,documentation reassign 1581 emacs,documentation reassign 1807 emacs,documentation reassign 1989 emacs,documentation reassign 1184 emacs,documentation reassign 1381 emacs,documentation reassign 74 emacs,documentation reassign 1351 emacs,documentation reassign 1478 emacs,documentation reassign 1526 emacs,documentation reassign 1947 emacs,documentation reassign 352 emacs,documentation reassign 575 emacs,documentation quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jun 24 14:23:37 2010 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Jun 2010 18:23:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ORr5N-00051L-8v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; 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24 Jun 2010 18:39:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ORrKw-0005sG-57 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:39:42 -0400 Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ORrKt-0005sB-FZ for 1381@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:39:40 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o5OIdXKi032041 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:39:34 GMT Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o5O9EjtE004577; Thu, 24 Jun 2010 18:39:29 GMT Received: from abhmt002.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 371636241277404752; Thu, 24 Jun 2010 11:39:12 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 24 Jun 2010 11:39:11 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: <1381@debbugs.gnu.org>, References: <87r5jw5ly6.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <000a01c94a73$c5bd1ed0$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#1381 acknowledged by developer (close 1382) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 11:39:14 -0700 Message-ID: <88028A50C1114FA99812B967E0EA66F7@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcsTyywjAfuN0IdySQ2OZw85aKDuigAAQmnw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4C23A664.01F3:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -4.9 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1381 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) What's this about - is it a mistake? #1381 has nothing to do with #1382. See below for my last mail (2008) about #1381. > -----Original Message----- > From: GNU bug Tracking System [mailto:help-debbugs@gnu.org] > Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 11:24 AM > To: Drew Adams > Subject: bug#1381 acknowledged by developer (close 1382) > > This is an automatic notification regarding your bug report > #1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc, > which was filed against the emacs package. > > It has been marked as closed by one of the developers, namely > Chong Yidong . > > You should be hearing from them with a substantive response shortly, > in case you haven't already. If not, please contact them directly. > > debbugs.gnu.org maintainers > (administrator, GNU bugs database) --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: Drew Adams Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 8:18 AM > To: rms@gnu.org Cc: 1381@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; > bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com; bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org > Subject: bug#1381: 23.0.60; capitalization of car and cdr in the doc > > > OK, that's one thing. But my question was whether these > > shouldn't simply be treated as normal Emacs terms - just > > like cons, buffer, symbol, and frame, after > > they have been introduced (defined). > > > > The reason for using @sc on car and cdr is that they are acronyms. > > Those other terms are not acronyms. > > I see. That makes sense, I guess, though I'm not sure it's > important. (If we > always stuck to that convention, then we might always write > "EMACS" or "EMacS", > not "Emacs". ;-)) > > FWIW, this is what Wikipedia says about the orthography of acronyms: > > The most common capitalization scheme seen with acronyms > and initialisms is all-uppercase (all-caps), except for > those few that have linguistically taken on an identity > as regular words, with the acronymous etymology of the > words fading into the background of common knowledge, such > as has occurred with the words scuba, laser, and radar. > > That's the argument I'd make here: "car" and "cdr" have > linguistically taken on > an identity as regular words. The machine registers that were > at the orgins of > these terms are incidental to the current meanings, and > knowledge of that > historical relation is anecdotal. > > I see "cdr" (for Lispians) the same way I see "radar". We > should encourage > thinking of these as common terms, rather than as acronyms > about machine > registers. Rather than facilitating understanding, I think it > gets in the way of > understanding (and readability) to write "RADAR" and "CDR". From unknown Fri Aug 15 18:51:00 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator