From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:29:07 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#13580 <13580@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#13580 <13580@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units Reply-To: bug#13580 <13580@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 14:29:07 +0000 retitle 13580 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units reassign 13580 emacs submitter 13580 "Roland Winkler" severity 13580 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 28 17:25:18 2013 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jan 2013 22:25:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53042 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Tzx8f-0006ck-N5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:25:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:57260) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Tzx8b-0006cb-NK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:25:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Tzx87-0005nC-SX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:24:46 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:52363) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Tzx87-0005n7-PS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:24:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:40384) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Tzx84-0001Fa-L9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:24:43 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Tzx82-0005me-Bq for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:24:40 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:35409) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Tzx82-0005mZ-92 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:24:38 -0500 Received: from lukas.physics.niu.edu ([131.156.85.221]:50659) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Tzx81-0005Bp-OB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:24:37 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 16:24:36 -0600 Message-Id: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> From: "Roland Winkler" To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 208.118.235.17 X-Spam-Score: -4.7 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.4 (-------) start emacs -Q start Calc type 'k K / eV RET u c expected result: either Emacs will ask me 'New units:' (as with Emacs 23) or something else meaningful, allowing me to convert 'k K / eV' to the units of my choice actual result: Calc returns 'k K / eV' expression unmodified In GNU Emacs 24.2.92.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.12.9) of 2013-01-10 on lukas Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10400090 System Description: Ubuntu 8.04.4 LTS From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 28 20:11:31 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jan 2013 01:11:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53122 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TzzjX-0001xI-5a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:11:31 -0500 Received: from mail-ob0-f179.google.com ([209.85.214.179]:49149) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TzzjV-0001x9-Ap for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:11:30 -0500 Received: by mail-ob0-f179.google.com with SMTP id un3so3395234obb.24 for <13580@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:11:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:cc:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=aZQvaxObYdn+ZSWPvIX6sdn/eUngAVjpCYBSWA03PTI=; b=Drv4XbrJOqnK8NZua9vU588LtjmzZiPHuQr6vIBenK0CZaZl8jFzYofBLyiJyg0i66 rKUD+nvRxhuuahPFKLZgaLA3E+n2vKR2PyYfryjfLYUCPWxGINCOjsilP1B8SHP4khDG qL8Lh2/tp7smfBCsAlN8Mzl3Dw+V2qopTWr2so6vmh+BmKA1r8WCxYGs/P6n+fMd0c4o NCY1PV3pF02mWmnJ0ZWkR0jg2ub7ns+MW5Tew/oZYuunrMdBbhsYNPloyb7RuNQnz8SW FvtQxGfUjvhV6wET3pI65fkykNGEM4Dqu4X68SUZH7XjCCHJZgp+FYJ6RKwmbRvAcE9m OKtQ== X-Received: by 10.60.32.39 with SMTP id f7mr12725785oei.86.1359421860590; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from belanger-x100e (184-155-88-117.cpe.cableone.net. [184.155.88.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d17sm9157100obu.0.2013.01.28.17.10.58 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:10:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Belanger To: "Roland Winkler" Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 19:10:56 -0600 In-Reply-To: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> (Roland Winkler's message of "Mon, 28 Jan 2013 16:24:36 -0600") Message-ID: <8738xklrof.fsf@truman.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: belanger@truman.edu List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) > start emacs -Q > start Calc > type 'k K / eV RET u c Oops; Calc is inelegantly distinguishing between expressions with no units and expressions where the units cancel. I'll fix that as soon as I get to a computer I can commit from. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jan 28 21:56:10 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jan 2013 02:56:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53248 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U01Mm-0004PI-OI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:56:09 -0500 Received: from mail-oa0-f49.google.com ([209.85.219.49]:41839) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U01Mk-0004PB-6B for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:56:07 -0500 Received: by mail-oa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id j6so980387oag.36 for <13580@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:55:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:from:to:subject:references:reply-to:cc:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=rb3RtT0nUFEL/gTS7fEsuCdtAODChs1MY+c2mWoqQTM=; b=FDnZjnevS4Wh8OhTd4JvJH0tR4J337GXhTiz+vkt37/Ex5c2ofVrw3RDoHszrN4Yqo qt2jIOXjg+EdYLMZOqz9TA9GXtx8ZxgSEf5FR4sBmGu2AumB4IUqOPKeEbgo6nGHICjP +oHRkK3Q3zIAonISHeg0RgEOMXB6D43Yfhr1XQ9t5+26pHAyitnIYvQ+CB6r8IcFydyx C8f4d49VDGyv+D0QkmOfqxwhwl09dO4ZWQHP/J8MmLMsml7iO8d58L5XhrENPO061fqM iTOOvz3F7rlkgs6NPopX8+7g/SLq+1Cj2Vud4/gTOZnVmd46+rCRoppfxOglnRZJ+vWC dpsw== X-Received: by 10.60.172.131 with SMTP id bc3mr5978601oec.79.1359428137035; Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from belanger-x100e (184-155-88-117.cpe.cableone.net. [184.155.88.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id kq9sm9367018obb.15.2013.01.28.18.55.33 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:55:35 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Belanger To: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:55:31 -0600 In-Reply-To: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> (Roland Winkler's message of "Mon, 28 Jan 2013 16:24:36 -0600") Message-ID: <87y5fck89o.fsf@truman.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: belanger@truman.edu List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Also, what's happening here is that since the units all cancel in the given expression, Calc simply returns the expression, with the units simplified. (That it doesn't properly simplify that particular expression is a bug to be fixed, but it isn't a regression.) The given example should probably be handled like an expression which has no units (either simply simplify it or prompt for "Old units" and "New units"). The Emacs 23 behavior, where new units were prompted for but essentially ignored, doesn't seem right. The overall fix depends on a non-regression fix (otherwise, it is replacing one wrong behavior for another). I'll make the fix in the trunk when I get to a computer I can commit from, but I don't know if the old behavior should be put back into the emacs-24 branch. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jan 30 09:21:05 2013 Received: (at 13580-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2013 14:21:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55506 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U0YXA-0006CC-U1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:21:05 -0500 Received: from mail-ob0-f181.google.com ([209.85.214.181]:57133) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U0YX7-0006Bn-HM for 13580-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:21:03 -0500 Received: by mail-ob0-f181.google.com with SMTP id ni5so1648893obc.26 for <13580-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 06:20:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:from:to:subject:references:reply-to:cc:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=Mz0hHxzpX14CwDQRGQHQMNWacDfpQWC7ZBPICac5g/c=; b=brPCwtLSGChbC16I+v8HqpV8sPGCjz0DaEcI3Kc7VfsC164ousLD7fuzgmhelOBfdX C3aEpWbeRBGlWqoImeTGywDlYfM1jQ86KeeLWtm7OTop3Bqv8+fIx9KJMAwB1wGkcQRJ FL4ic9VJ2a+ZvRfZkFpDGmBDS9va0KMwRD0hkCECcAujfyMPn+d8azttEMeV6mLbgntj ByTaIqbBTlT7jaoqMUpFKe22FwsRb5POQO9Xj0ZSBkVkNRV46U2hC2y4P/LiW5keIj07 Z9gstEg158l9ZPF2OU7atqZtkbKJi8v4NJxsaX8g5gdZDgKpfj1TpQc1PJcM7s9QMBBh 1PIg== X-Received: by 10.182.217.10 with SMTP id ou10mr393896obc.30.1359555623885; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 06:20:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from belanger-x100e (184-155-88-117.cpe.cableone.net. [184.155.88.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d17sm1613849obu.0.2013.01.30.06.20.21 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Jan 2013 06:20:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Belanger To: 13580-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:20:20 -0600 In-Reply-To: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> (Roland Winkler's message of "Mon, 28 Jan 2013 16:24:36 -0600") Message-ID: <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580-done Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: belanger@truman.edu List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) > start emacs -Q > start Calc > type 'k K / eV RET u c > > expected result: either Emacs will ask me 'New units:' (as with > Emacs 23) or something else meaningful, This has been fixed in bzr. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 12:39:46 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2013 17:39:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42285 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3VRo-0005A6-Qj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 12:39:46 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:44566) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3VRk-00059u-AP for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 12:39:41 -0500 Received: from adsl-68-77-17-140.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net ([68.77.17.140]:43132 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1U3VQN-0005P5-Jn; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 12:38:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:38:13 -0600 From: "Roland Winkler" To: belanger@truman.edu Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units In-Reply-To: <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.2.92.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, 13580@debbugs.gnu.org, Glenn Morris X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) On Wed Jan 30 2013 Jay Belanger wrote: > > > start emacs -Q > > start Calc > > type 'k K / eV RET u c > > > > expected result: either Emacs will ask me 'New units:' (as with > > Emacs 23) or something else meaningful, > > This has been fixed in bzr. I am sorry, I do not understand the new behavior: Why does calc-convert-units ask now (The expression is unitless when simplified) Old Units: if the expression is dimensionless? In physics "unitless" is different from "dimensionless", it is quite common to use dimensionless units. In other words, I do not quite understand what the change in calc-convert-units was supposed to fix or improve here. calc-convert-units should take such dimensionless expressions from the stack as it used to with any such expressions (expressions with dimensions or dimensionless expressions). The old behavior was fine in that respect. >From a different perspective: calc-convert-units in the pretest branch is still broken, I just installed 24.2.93.1 which still shows the bug. The current behavior is a regression as compared with previous emacs versions and rather annoying for me. Roland From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 14:53:22 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2013 19:53:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42323 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3XX7-0001as-Ur for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 14:53:22 -0500 Received: from uranium.truman.edu ([150.243.165.48]:35811) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3XX5-0001al-FD for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 14:53:20 -0500 Received: from belanger-office (vh213601.truman.edu [150.243.162.59]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by uranium.truman.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B3AA112831D; Thu, 7 Feb 2013 13:53:19 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Belanger To: "Roland Winkler" Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 13:53:21 -0600 In-Reply-To: <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Roland Winkler's message of "Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:38:13 -0600") Message-ID: <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > I am sorry, I do not understand the new behavior: Why does > calc-convert-units ask now > > (The expression is unitless when simplified) Old Units: > > if the expression is dimensionless? It says unitless, not dimensionless. They are not the same thing. [...] Content analysis details: (1.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jay.p.belanger[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.8 SPF_NEUTRAL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.5000] X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: Glenn Morris , 13580@debbugs.gnu.org, jay.p.belanger@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > I am sorry, I do not understand the new behavior: Why does > calc-convert-units ask now > > (The expression is unitless when simplified) Old Units: > > if the expression is dimensionless? It says unitless, not dimensionless. They are not the same thing. [...] Content analysis details: (1.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jay.p.belanger[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.8 SPF_NEUTRAL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.4986] > I am sorry, I do not understand the new behavior: Why does > calc-convert-units ask now > > (The expression is unitless when simplified) Old Units: > > if the expression is dimensionless? It says unitless, not dimensionless. They are not the same thing. > From a different perspective: calc-convert-units in the pretest > branch is still broken, Not that I can see. If there are units (whether dimensionless or not), it will work with those. If there are not units to convert, it will ask what units you intended. For example, convert: 3 There are no units here, so Calc asks for the old units. This behavior is as old as Calc. convert: 3 ft/in This is simply 36. There are no units here, so Calc asks for the old units. Since someone might wonder why Calc is asking for units, there is a message pointing out the expression doesn't have any. convert: 3 rad This is dimensionless but not unitless. Since there is a unit to work with, Calc doesn't ask for one. Which behavior do you consider buggy? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 15:11:15 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2013 20:11:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42351 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3XoR-00021i-Q3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:11:15 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:47664) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3XoM-00021X-Bv for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:11:11 -0500 Received: from adsl-68-77-17-140.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net ([68.77.17.140]:43728 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1U3XoL-0004SB-0r; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:11:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20756.2650.905241.524028@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:11:06 -0600 From: "Roland Winkler" To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units In-Reply-To: <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.2.93.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: Glenn Morris , 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) On Thu Feb 7 2013 Jay Belanger wrote: > Which behavior do you consider buggy? Please see my original bug report. Nothing has changed with GNU Emacs 24.2.93.1. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 15:18:27 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2013 20:18:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42414 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3XvO-0003BV-Mz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:18:27 -0500 Received: from uranium.truman.edu ([150.243.165.48]:48857) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3XvN-0003BN-2c for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:18:25 -0500 Received: from belanger-office (vh213601.truman.edu [150.243.162.59]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by uranium.truman.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49AC3128298; Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:18:25 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Belanger To: "Roland Winkler" Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.2650.905241.524028@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 14:18:26 -0600 In-Reply-To: <20756.2650.905241.524028@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Roland Winkler's message of "Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:11:06 -0600") Message-ID: <87d2wbq3n1.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > Please see my original bug report. I did. That bug has been fixed. I tried it again to make sure. If you have a new bug to report, please give the details. [...] Content analysis details: (1.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jay.p.belanger[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.8 SPF_NEUTRAL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.5000] X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: Glenn Morris , 13580@debbugs.gnu.org, jay.p.belanger@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > Please see my original bug report. I did. That bug has been fixed. I tried it again to make sure. If you have a new bug to report, please give the details. [...] Content analysis details: (1.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jay.p.belanger[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.8 SPF_NEUTRAL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.4963] > Please see my original bug report. I did. That bug has been fixed. I tried it again to make sure. If you have a new bug to report, please give the details. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 15:23:09 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2013 20:23:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42425 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3Xzw-0003Jh-St for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:23:09 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:47934) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3Xzv-0003Ja-UC for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:23:08 -0500 Received: from adsl-68-77-17-140.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net ([68.77.17.140]:43758 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1U3Xzw-0005x8-9S; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:23:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20756.3370.201573.985436@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:23:06 -0600 From: "Roland Winkler" To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units In-Reply-To: <87d2wbq3n1.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.2650.905241.524028@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87d2wbq3n1.fsf@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.2.93.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) On Thu Feb 7 2013 Jay Belanger wrote: > > > Please see my original bug report. > > I did. That bug has been fixed. I tried it again to make sure. > If you have a new bug to report, please give the details. You changed the trunk, but not the pretest branch. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 15:24:13 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2013 20:24:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42429 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3Y0x-0003Lm-Da for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:24:12 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:47946) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3Y0u-0003Le-Rd for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:24:10 -0500 Received: from adsl-68-77-17-140.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net ([68.77.17.140]:43763 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1U3Y0v-00062Y-72; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:24:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:24:07 -0600 From: "Roland Winkler" To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units In-Reply-To: <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.2.93.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) On Thu Feb 7 2013 Jay Belanger wrote: > convert: > 3 ft/in > This is simply 36. There are no units here, so Calc asks for the old > units. Since someone might wonder why Calc is asking for units, there > is a message pointing out the expression doesn't have any. Please recognize the difference between dimensionless and unitless. 3 ft/in is dimensionless, but it has the unit "ft/in". As calc-convert-units is about converting units and (I suppose) nothing else, there is no need to ask the user here. If the user entered "kg" as the old unit of "3 ft / in" this makes no sense. Please, trust the user she knows what she wants. The new behavior is a regression. Roland From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 15:33:38 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2013 20:33:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42441 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3YA6-0004VL-CS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:33:38 -0500 Received: from uranium.truman.edu ([150.243.165.48]:47663) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3YA4-0004V9-Ts for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:33:37 -0500 Received: from belanger-office (vh213601.truman.edu [150.243.162.59]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by uranium.truman.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 32383128298; Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:33:37 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Belanger To: "Roland Winkler" Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.2650.905241.524028@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87d2wbq3n1.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3370.201573.985436@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 14:33:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <20756.3370.201573.985436@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Roland Winkler's message of "Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:23:06 -0600") Message-ID: <87pq0bn9st.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > You changed the trunk, but not the pretest branch. The old behavior was buggy, and the pretest behavior is buggy. I'd be happy to put a fix in the pretest branch, but I think currently there are only supposed to be bugfixes in the pretest branch for regressions, and I'm not sure this counts as one. [...] Content analysis details: (1.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jay.p.belanger[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.8 SPF_NEUTRAL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.4999] X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, 13580@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > You changed the trunk, but not the pretest branch. The old behavior was buggy, and the pretest behavior is buggy. I'd be happy to put a fix in the pretest branch, but I think currently there are only supposed to be bugfixes in the pretest branch for regressions, and I'm not sure this counts as one. [...] Content analysis details: (1.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jay.p.belanger[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.8 SPF_NEUTRAL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.4131] > You changed the trunk, but not the pretest branch. The old behavior was buggy, and the pretest behavior is buggy. I'd be happy to put a fix in the pretest branch, but I think currently there are only supposed to be bugfixes in the pretest branch for regressions, and I'm not sure this counts as one. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 15:39:39 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2013 20:39:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42458 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3YFv-0004fz-8b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:39:39 -0500 Received: from uranium.truman.edu ([150.243.165.48]:56921) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3YFu-0004fs-7L for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:39:38 -0500 Received: from belanger-office (vh213601.truman.edu [150.243.162.59]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by uranium.truman.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B5D1B1282F2; Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:39:38 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Belanger To: "Roland Winkler" Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 14:39:40 -0600 In-Reply-To: <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Roland Winkler's message of "Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:24:07 -0600") Message-ID: <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > Please recognize the difference between dimensionless and unitless. > 3 ft/in is dimensionless, but it has the unit "ft/in". "The expression is unitless when simplified" > If the user entered "kg" as the old unit of "3 ft / in" this makes no > sense. [...] Content analysis details: (1.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jay.p.belanger[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.8 SPF_NEUTRAL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.5000] X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > Please recognize the difference between dimensionless and unitless. > 3 ft/in is dimensionless, but it has the unit "ft/in". "The expression is unitless when simplified" > If the user entered "kg" as the old unit of "3 ft / in" this makes no > sense. [...] Content analysis details: (1.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jay.p.belanger[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record 0.8 SPF_NEUTRAL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.4755] > Please recognize the difference between dimensionless and unitless. > 3 ft/in is dimensionless, but it has the unit "ft/in". "The expression is unitless when simplified" > If the user entered "kg" as the old unit of "3 ft / in" this makes no > sense. Of course it does, and Calc has supported this behavior for years. When Calc asks for Old Units:... New Units:..., it is regarding the expression on the stack as the coefficient of the old units. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 15:40:19 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2013 20:40:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42462 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3YGY-0004hG-M4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:40:18 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:48224) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3YGW-0004h7-F5 for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:40:17 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1U3YGQ-0001En-2y; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:40:10 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.2650.905241.524028@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87d2wbq3n1.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3370.201573.985436@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87pq0bn9st.fsf@gmail.com> X-Spook: NASA benelux terrorist unclassified Panama JUWTF FSF X-Ran: /TI9&'n=IOu]qyL!Q>GvT)9EJPm5LRxS)EH{;@K5Y6s)Z9.}]f`"gN')I)j^kxd0 (Jay Belanger's message of "Thu, 07 Feb 2013 14:33:38 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org, Roland Winkler X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.5 (-----) Jay Belanger wrote: > The old behavior was buggy, and the pretest behavior is buggy. Sounds like something that does not need fixing in emacs-24 then. > I'd be happy to put a fix in the pretest branch, but I think currently > there are only supposed to be bugfixes in the pretest branch for > regressions, and I'm not sure this counts as one. If you are absolutely convinced the patch is safe, you can put it in emacs-24 if you like. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 15:55:44 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2013 20:55:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42492 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3YVS-0005zI-DJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:55:43 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:48515) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3YVP-0005zA-H7 for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:55:40 -0500 Received: from adsl-68-77-17-140.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net ([68.77.17.140]:43973 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1U3YVP-0002xd-KC; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:55:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:55:37 -0600 From: "Roland Winkler" To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units In-Reply-To: <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.2.93.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) On Thu Feb 7 2013 Jay Belanger wrote: > > Please recognize the difference between dimensionless and unitless. > > 3 ft/in is dimensionless, but it has the unit "ft/in". > > "The expression is unitless when simplified" I am sorry, this is a rather unique interpretation of the concept of "dimensions" vs "units" in physics. Is there no other physicist reading this? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 16:12:11 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2013 21:12:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42500 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3YlP-0007Gu-5K for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:12:11 -0500 Received: from mail-ob0-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:36215) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3YlO-0007Go-0a for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:12:10 -0500 Received: by mail-ob0-f169.google.com with SMTP id ta14so3255338obb.0 for <13580@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 13:12:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:from:to:subject:references:reply-to:cc:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=OoJy+/zLg2GJaFAQ8wMYuYM7hKY3QPoFUVMMy9VjJEQ=; b=SXe8V0tR1fy+UxA9xbTWbtqyQMAw8dlvy1Yy086vCj2li992VZuNdOa6b6MPzrpeKS kUBBXQ5wH0J7s7l0/yACEqEifjly4tRETb/++sFDLTfel3pSxrGCpRx8aOUZP02KpTXm Zz+X5Pei/locKvLArnvny15fLDUwPdlIbMN/1WQRmUj3sCW+hiBymHDC67+eyr5inUHo A+gLZwUQf1s/55c1u+HGTtosNOCN3WHvOyA37I+FRtNjJHR41ih2FvfbSzt7HZfgH5RW aI1WQEsBJcxAAhiwv2cGTp2OyJwRNRPvIJbUMg3qxGecmaHQVpYCPnj0sl37IMpc+n5N lIaQ== X-Received: by 10.60.12.103 with SMTP id x7mr2417612oeb.56.1360271529863; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 13:12:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from belanger-home (184-155-88-117.cpe.cableone.net. [184.155.88.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ka6sm25721424obb.3.2013.02.07.13.12.08 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Feb 2013 13:12:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Belanger To: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:11:58 -0600 In-Reply-To: <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Roland Winkler's message of "Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:55:37 -0600") Message-ID: <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) >> > Please recognize the difference between dimensionless and unitless. >> > 3 ft/in is dimensionless, but it has the unit "ft/in". >> >> "The expression is unitless when simplified" > > I am sorry, this is a rather unique interpretation of the concept of > "dimensions" vs "units" in physics. I honestly have no idea what you are talking about, but you certainly aren't addressing what I am saying. Please respond to what I write. I've been consistently talking about units, not dimensions; I have given no interpretation of "dimensions" vs "units". The expression above has no units when simplified; that's a pretty straightforward statement. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 16:19:10 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2013 21:19:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42509 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3Ys9-0007RY-VF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:19:10 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:49080) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3Ys6-0007RO-Ku for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:19:07 -0500 Received: from adsl-68-77-17-140.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net ([68.77.17.140]:44035 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1U3Ys6-0007Hr-NK; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:19:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20756.6728.538018.169281@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 15:19:04 -0600 From: "Roland Winkler" To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units In-Reply-To: <87d2wb3k4e.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87d2wb3k4e.fsf@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.2.93.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) On Thu Feb 7 2013 Jay Belanger wrote: > > >> > Please recognize the difference between dimensionless and unitless. > >> > 3 ft/in is dimensionless, but it has the unit "ft/in". > >> > >> "The expression is unitless when simplified" > > > > I am sorry, this is a rather unique interpretation of the concept of > > "dimensions" vs "units" in physics. > > I honestly have no idea what you are talking about, but you > certainly aren't addressing what I am saying. Please respond to > what I write. I've been consistently talking about units, not > dimensions; I have given no interpretation of "dimensions" vs > "units". The expression above has no units when simplified; that's > a pretty straightforward statement. I give up From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 20:29:45 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2013 01:29:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42687 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3cme-0007jM-Eu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:29:45 -0500 Received: from mail-oa0-f50.google.com ([209.85.219.50]:45991) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3cmc-0007jE-1H for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:29:42 -0500 Received: by mail-oa0-f50.google.com with SMTP id l20so3577316oag.9 for <13580@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 17:29:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:cc:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=ws+50JhQrX5vE9iwXzg0Nl/qjTVtcJriZMVxhbp2+rw=; b=ikDC9q/o6DH0JPRWYWXEiaRwvDVKKI5WitOrU786kvny3xfmPBSA5KqgpRJVTGtXpi 98MbTqFNThtt9WuQNmBUyfOG+Ju/Q23LQjElA95oQPTshl03qPiQSebBnVSSnAG2zaqM MdQQjRSg2sHq6g+x8dN71r02l7Jw1IeqH623RKyR7ww8547UJgITnidZ/gQO2TJfeVtY 5bA3tactIpoF0z9zFPExUG6Mzp20CfdWfuwHo0/okSh62Rdt/ONbl1z5J7DZ9wEGRhf9 jFcaXtrVyf/f9qkbeRFowcOxFN41SougK6Td3AdlwNOIPyqt+k/u9mRO8pzrOQYmCLKf HsTA== X-Received: by 10.60.171.102 with SMTP id at6mr2931720oec.60.1360286981034; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 17:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from belanger-home (184-155-88-117.cpe.cableone.net. [184.155.88.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v8sm35918090obj.1.2013.02.07.17.29.38 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 07 Feb 2013 17:29:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Belanger To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.2650.905241.524028@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87d2wbq3n1.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3370.201573.985436@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87pq0bn9st.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 19:29:29 -0600 In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:40:09 -0500") Message-ID: <87622361ae.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Glenn Morris writes: > Jay Belanger wrote: > >> The old behavior was buggy, and the pretest behavior is buggy. > > Sounds like something that does not need fixing in emacs-24 then. Okay, then. Particular since: * the difference between the old behavior and the pretest behavior is that one bug was fixed, making it easier to see another bug which had been around a while (the pretest buggy behavior wasn't new), * the changes since the pretest have been simple, but not trivial, I'll leave the pretest alone. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 07 20:51:24 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2013 01:51:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42696 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3d7c-0000iX-2Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:51:24 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:55278) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3d7a-0000iQ-1t for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:51:22 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1U3d7Y-0005Lw-S4; Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:51:20 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.2650.905241.524028@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87d2wbq3n1.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3370.201573.985436@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87pq0bn9st.fsf@gmail.com> <87622361ae.fsf@gmail.com> X-Spook: Qaddafi high security mindwar Jiang Zemin interception X-Ran: =EnLJ?O4ar:vsss.P&bN$Djp&Rv)-jL3L=j;XB9ow^lZcz>.Fw7~s3UKF=p/=f9E@pRF3S X-Hue: blue X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:51:20 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87622361ae.fsf@gmail.com> (Jay Belanger's message of "Thu, 07 Feb 2013 19:29:29 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Jay Belanger wrote: > * the difference between the old behavior and the pretest behavior is > that one bug was fixed, making it easier to see another bug which > had been around a while (the pretest buggy behavior wasn't new), > * the changes since the pretest have been simple, but not trivial, > I'll leave the pretest alone. Sounds like the right call to me. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 08 03:21:52 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2013 08:21:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42827 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3jDU-00043u-JA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 03:21:52 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:51832) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3jDS-00043l-EC for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 03:21:51 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MHW00H006D6ME00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:21:21 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MHW00HQ477LQJ20@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:21:21 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:21:39 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units In-reply-to: <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Roland Winkler Message-id: <83ip638bcc.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:55:37 -0600 > From: "Roland Winkler" > Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org > > On Thu Feb 7 2013 Jay Belanger wrote: > > > Please recognize the difference between dimensionless and unitless. > > > 3 ft/in is dimensionless, but it has the unit "ft/in". > > > > "The expression is unitless when simplified" > > I am sorry, this is a rather unique interpretation of the concept of > "dimensions" vs "units" in physics. Is there no other physicist > reading this? [...] Content analysis details: (1.5 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.179.55.166 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.7 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.4998] X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:55:37 -0600 > From: "Roland Winkler" > Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org > > On Thu Feb 7 2013 Jay Belanger wrote: > > > Please recognize the difference between dimensionless and unitless. > > > 3 ft/in is dimensionless, but it has the unit "ft/in". > > > > "The expression is unitless when simplified" > > I am sorry, this is a rather unique interpretation of the concept of > "dimensions" vs "units" in physics. Is there no other physicist > reading this? [...] Content analysis details: (1.5 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.179.55.166 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.7 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.4450] > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:55:37 -0600 > From: "Roland Winkler" > Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org > > On Thu Feb 7 2013 Jay Belanger wrote: > > > Please recognize the difference between dimensionless and unitless. > > > 3 ft/in is dimensionless, but it has the unit "ft/in". > > > > "The expression is unitless when simplified" > > I am sorry, this is a rather unique interpretation of the concept of > "dimensions" vs "units" in physics. Is there no other physicist > reading this? I am, but AFAIU this is not an issue whether dimensionless and unitless are the same (they are not). The issue is how this makes a difference in relevant use cases with Calc. So I suggest that you show several examples where the new behavior is not what the user will want, and propose a better behavior in those cases. Up until now, the discussion here didn't show enough clear examples for me to make up my mind on this issue; perhaps Jay is unconvinced for the same reason. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 08 03:34:02 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2013 08:34:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42840 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3jPE-0004LX-Vq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 03:34:02 -0500 Received: from mtaout23.012.net.il ([80.179.55.175]:49842) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3jPC-0004LQ-Ea for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 03:33:59 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout23.012.net.il by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MHW009007QIPG00@a-mtaout23.012.net.il> for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:33:40 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout23.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MHW009R87S4OO10@a-mtaout23.012.net.il>; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:33:40 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:33:59 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units In-reply-to: <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com Message-id: <83haln8ars.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > From: Jay Belanger > Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:11:58 -0600 > > I've been consistently talking about units, not dimensions; I have given > no interpretation of "dimensions" vs "units". The expression above has > no units when simplified; that's a pretty straightforward statement. [...] Content analysis details: (1.5 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.179.55.175 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.7 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.5000] X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > From: Jay Belanger > Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:11:58 -0600 > > I've been consistently talking about units, not dimensions; I have given > no interpretation of "dimensions" vs "units". The expression above has > no units when simplified; that's a pretty straightforward statement. [...] Content analysis details: (1.5 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.179.55.175 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.7 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.4972] > From: Jay Belanger > Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:11:58 -0600 >=20 > I've been consistently talking about units, not dimensions; I have = given > no interpretation of "dimensions" vs "units". The expression above= has > no units when simplified; that's a pretty straightforward statement= . He is talking about this (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensionless_quantity): In dimensional analysis, a dimensionless quantity or quantity of dimension one is a quantity without an associated physical dimension. It is thus a "pure" number, and as such always has a dimension of 1. [...] Even though a dimensionless quantity has no physical dimension associated with it, it can still have dimensionless units. To show = the quantity being measured (for example mass fraction or mole fraction= ), it is sometimes helpful to use the same units in both the numerator and denominator (kg/kg or mol/mol). The quantity may also be given = as a ratio of two different units that have the same dimension (for instance, light years over meters). This may be the case when calculating slopes in graphs, or when making unit conversions. Such notation does not indicate the presence of physical dimensions, and= is purely a notational convention. Other common dimensionless units ar= e % (=3D 0.01), =E2=80=B0 (=3D 0.001), [...] and angle units (degree= s, radians, grad). Therefore, "dimensionless" and "unitless" is not the same, and you se= e above prominent examples of such dimensionless units. IOW, removing dimensions of an expression as part of simplifying it might sometimes lose information. E.g., dividing the length of a circular arc by its radius will give you m/m, but the natural units o= f this are radians or degrees, not lack of units, and talking about "unitless" in this case might make little sense to a user who _knows_ she is computing an angle. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 08 09:31:16 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2013 14:31:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43150 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3oyx-0007pK-Jl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 09:31:16 -0500 Received: from mail-ob0-f178.google.com ([209.85.214.178]:58596) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3oyj-0007oo-7K for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 09:31:09 -0500 Received: by mail-ob0-f178.google.com with SMTP id wd20so3976846obb.9 for <13580@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 06:30:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:cc:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=vtEanh10mnwKxkVAzoI/u8pCBSLaeCWZ+keuGPoXzrY=; b=XFDM/IegkTPrpPihFr9XYj0m1Wl+k/d09VCnTexO2b8MXZa0qjZETuNQrmh+xyBtxd zugJu0X/MARz5lDZx1C1RUphfnsfhtXBVWZ/kySO971pckH0QC0DuXkwX7lC4pzP9asN QlFo7DmW443qU0uFL2SICsvvJA4H8z+mZso2Ty/14DOoUb0drWOl6fgxQ+ck0XOTiCeN YhiExnUGyGzpOv6LNnBJoLZStQuI0kDQOV4dVBFxj9sxSYoE4FI8myOwkdp+cvkBhl9a cOa5qAJp62FjAbZGlT4ruotUQvVwH4aW6tKIAM+mAV6DfvKmY60Bswk0hboKfwggCTRa B09g== X-Received: by 10.60.171.230 with SMTP id ax6mr4141350oec.25.1360333856866; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 06:30:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from belanger-home (184-155-88-117.cpe.cableone.net. [184.155.88.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id el2sm37791811obc.9.2013.02.08.06.30.53 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Feb 2013 06:30:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Belanger To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> <83haln8ars.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 08:30:43 -0600 In-Reply-To: <83haln8ars.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:33:59 +0200") Message-ID: <87k3qi514c.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) >> I've been consistently talking about units, not dimensions; I have given >> no interpretation of "dimensions" vs "units". The expression above has >> no units when simplified; that's a pretty straightforward statement. > > He is talking about this (see > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensionless_quantity): I've indicated that I know what dimensionless means; I've been consistently talking about unitless because that's what calc-convert-units works with. Whether something is dimensionless or not is irrelevant to Calc. > Therefore, "dimensionless" and "unitless" is not the same, That's pretty much a direct quote of what I said before. > IOW, removing dimensions of an expression as part of simplifying it > might sometimes lose information. E.g., dividing the length of a > circular arc by its radius will give you m/m, but the natural units of > this are radians or degrees, not lack of units, and talking about > "unitless" in this case might make little sense to a user who _knows_ > she is computing an angle. Sure, but if a user asks Calc to work with m/m, the classic Calc behavior was for Calc to ask for a new unit, then basically ignore it and cancel the units. If the user put in "3 m/m", "New units: rad", the result would not be "3", not "3 rad". (Behind the scenes the new unit would be introduced but then disappear.) It ended up just simplifying the units. Asking for unused information seems like a bug. This was changed so that it wouldn't ask for the essentially unused information. Since Calc then acts without informing the user, I added information and allowed the user to treat the expression as unitless. That is the way I would like to use it. But it seems like there are two reasonable behaviors when the units cancel: (1) Simplify the expression. (The 24 branch behavior.) (2) Treat it like a unitless expression. (The trunk behavior.) Changing from the classic behavior to (1) was fixing a bug; when I heard a complaint about the lack of information that (1) provided, I changed to (2). Perhaps Calc should stick to (1), and let the user deal with the simplified expression. Or: What do you suggest? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 08 09:49:28 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2013 14:49:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43174 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3pGZ-0008ET-Vv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 09:49:28 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:41779) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3pGX-0008EJ-LU for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 09:49:26 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MHW00L00P1VAT00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:49:14 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MHW00LW3P620090@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:49:14 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:49:34 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units In-reply-to: <87k3qi514c.fsf@gmail.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com Message-id: <834nhm97y9.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> <83haln8ars.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3qi514c.fsf@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: > From: Jay Belanger > Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org > CC: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 08:30:43 -0600 > > > He is talking about this (see > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensionless_quantity): > > I've indicated that I know what dimensionless means [...] Content analysis details: (1.5 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.179.55.166 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.7 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) 0.8 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% [score: 0.4895] X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org, Roland Winkler X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) > From: Jay Belanger > Cc: 13580@debbugs.gnu.org > CC: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 08:30:43 -0600 > > > He is talking about this (see > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensionless_quantity): > > I've indicated that I know what dimensionless means Sorry about that. I wanted to make sure everyone is on the same page in this regard. > Sure, but if a user asks Calc to work with m/m, the classic Calc > behavior was for Calc to ask for a new unit, then basically ignore it > and cancel the units. If the user put in "3 m/m", "New units: rad", the > result would not be "3", not "3 rad". (Behind the scenes the new unit > would be introduced but then disappear.) It ended up just simplifying > the units. Asking for unused information seems like a bug. This was > changed so that it wouldn't ask for the essentially unused information. > Since Calc then acts without informing the user, I added information and > allowed the user to treat the expression as unitless. That is the way I > would like to use it. But it seems like there are two reasonable > behaviors when the units cancel: > (1) Simplify the expression. (The 24 branch behavior.) > (2) Treat it like a unitless expression. (The trunk behavior.) > Changing from the classic behavior to (1) was fixing a bug; when I heard > a complaint about the lack of information that (1) provided, I changed > to (2). > Perhaps Calc should stick to (1), and let the user deal with the > simplified expression. > > Or: What do you suggest? I'd rather hope that Roland will suggest the alternative behavior he would like to see instead. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 08 09:56:35 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2013 14:56:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44352 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3pNQ-0000Ek-SZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 09:56:33 -0500 Received: from mail-oa0-f48.google.com ([209.85.219.48]:58433) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3pNL-0000Ef-HJ for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 09:56:29 -0500 Received: by mail-oa0-f48.google.com with SMTP id j1so4092507oag.21 for <13580@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 06:56:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:cc:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=/xlc9W2nNrm+4p4YLeZQ9oaFTFfTlaksIH0+aM6XcaA=; b=DAk2SVlTWri9wKrtF7Lvz98r5JKcn5BRPhm0jblEu7q17vJ2pE0ZqeEdPhYFUViFjb 02Q2UKcj7IxL2e8oGDnokUxwu+iDWqEW1L5RwZj7J9VIiSLtPO+KMD4WLc+7nCVARZMt W7f3zTpGliUMvD3JortIvTP8tFzz/uK4dXb+xCezX+bXih2XA5GoX8jfusDw+QLl0mkO mtf0rbPAQ6jLM/47d2I2OppVn52y6pv22IiAgrfVJ8QZNoXZFF/2bmBZRE6Ulpn8Ivr3 scDuQkjbXzLkW3nwDw3z2EZ2uC/My6elWa0QWxHSKyg4S6TtCqhrZWY9O0o0Iv+6om+f A4Fg== X-Received: by 10.60.172.40 with SMTP id az8mr4204974oec.5.1360335383438; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 06:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from belanger-home (184-155-88-117.cpe.cableone.net. [184.155.88.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k4sm38848325oeb.5.2013.02.08.06.56.21 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Feb 2013 06:56:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Belanger To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> <83haln8ars.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3qi514c.fsf@gmail.com> <834nhm97y9.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 08:56:11 -0600 In-Reply-To: <834nhm97y9.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:49:34 +0200") Message-ID: <87fw164zxw.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, 13580@debbugs.gnu.org, Roland Winkler X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) >> I've indicated that I know what dimensionless means > > Sorry about that. I wanted to make sure everyone is on the same page > in this regard. Thanks; that's a good idea. >> Perhaps Calc should stick to (1), and let the user deal with the >> simplified expression. >> >> Or: What do you suggest? > > I'd rather hope that Roland will suggest the alternative behavior he > would like to see instead. A concrete suggestion would be nice, but should take into account the different uses for expressions where the units cancel. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 08 10:41:57 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2013 15:41:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44413 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3q5N-0001IG-K6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:41:57 -0500 Received: from mail-oa0-f41.google.com ([209.85.219.41]:60704) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3q5L-0001I8-CU for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:41:55 -0500 Received: by mail-oa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id i10so4146424oag.28 for <13580@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:41:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:cc:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=XDKF3MMVQe/QvLAhHeyGBkAYyn+FzBPkrTvEv5mD6W0=; b=j/wxLs94xYOvYD9yNdcyKG4rui//CXUv2lIyJ9mj9ttHJNoW1B3rHDmf+hkMrnP7/a H6/W78HBz3cAPI1ePL6s92M5HZhcvOD4URG2PP3hCbnY3xQejA/NtXr/6UUZRXiLuSyc ew7CgyO0ya1v55B9nHJnVlMWeTtAZgSttPQtcdEDzf1tDED9JT1AkFfAk+lbWZI311MJ qNXRP7lKOlzkWZgfFcsgSQVsyIG1lsr2mn9hDPdxdNkt4g4E0HpSnV/u/Qxo4r2l9Sv3 Yt37YViiZU9v52QwkrH7Ag9fj9dJSuLtr9FRQgL6oyiCiPSTJVFfXV5lJYRKfKObU/Hx /t8g== X-Received: by 10.182.23.20 with SMTP id i20mr4462993obf.44.1360338111050; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:41:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from belanger-home (184-155-88-117.cpe.cableone.net. [184.155.88.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w10sm38995296oeg.2.2013.02.08.07.41.48 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:41:49 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Belanger To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> <83haln8ars.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3qi514c.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 09:41:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <87k3qi514c.fsf@gmail.com> (Jay Belanger's message of "Fri, 08 Feb 2013 08:30:43 -0600") Message-ID: <8738x6n77x.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) > Sure, but if a user asks Calc to work with m/m, the classic Calc > behavior was for Calc to ask for a new unit, then basically ignore it > and cancel the units. If the user put in "3 m/m", "New units: rad", the > result would not be "3", not "3 rad". (Behind the scenes the new unit > would be introduced but then disappear.) This behavior was inconsistent, by the way. That might be related to a simplification bug I mentioned earlier in this thread; I'll look into that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 08 23:57:47 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2013 04:57:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45280 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U42VX-0007yA-Bx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 23:57:47 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:34102) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U42VU-0007y3-Qv for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 23:57:46 -0500 Received: from adsl-68-77-17-140.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net ([68.77.17.140]:46398 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1U42VM-00024K-NI; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 23:57:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20757.55102.322862.769049@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 22:57:34 -0600 From: "Roland Winkler" To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units In-Reply-To: <834nhm97y9.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> <83haln8ars.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3qi514c.fsf@gmail.com> <834nhm97y9.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.2.93.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) On Fri Feb 8 2013 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > He is talking about this (see > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensionless_quantity): > > > > I've indicated that I know what dimensionless means > > Sorry about that. I wanted to make sure everyone is on the same page > in this regard. This wikipedia page is about "dimensionless quantities", and that's very different from dimensionless units. Distance, mass, energy, they can all be expressed in dimensionless units. Such dimensionless units are used all the time in physics. Strangely, I can give you zillions of references in (more advanced) textbooks that use them. But nobody bothers to explain this concept in general terms. > I'd rather hope that Roland will suggest the alternative behavior he > would like to see instead. Let's focus on what calc-convert-units should do (and mostly has been doing previously): Consider the equality 1 mph = 0.44704 m / s (1) which we can read as a task for calc-convert-units: converting "1 mph" to the new unit "m / s" gives "0.44704 m / s" We can manipulate Eq. (1) in lots of ways so that it is once again an equality that we can interpret as a different task for calc-convert-units, for example 1 mph s = 0.44704 m (2) converting "1 mph s" to the new unit "m" gives "0.44704 m" 1 mph s / m = 0.44704 (3) converting "1 mph s / m" to the new unit "1" gives "0.44704" 1 = 0.44704 m / (s mph) (4) converting "1" to the new unit "m/(s mph)" gives "0.44704" The above is a very consistent scheme as it corresponds to equality transformations: if previously the left-hand-side of one of these equations was on the Calc stack, it gets replaced by an "equal" expression, very similar to 10 = 8#12 = 16#A Equations (3) and (4) correspond to "dimensionless" expressions: we do have units (which do NOT cancel), but the dimensions of these units cancel on each side of these equations. (The dimension of "m" is "length", for "s" it is "time", for "mph" it is "velocity".) But conceptually there is really no difference between Eqs. (1) - (4). Now where is the problem? - (1) and (2) are fine with old (GNU Emacs 23) and more recent (24.2.93 and 24.3.50) versions of Emacs - (3) is essentially fine with Emacs 23 ("1" is not recognized as new unit, but calc-convert-units requires that the new unit is specified as "si", which, I believe, in this case boils down to "simplify". - Not prefect, but ok. The final result is correct). With (3) and 24.2.93, calc-convert-units does not do anything, an annoying regression. With (3) and 24.3.50, calc-convert-units requests an "old unit", which can be something like "kg". If the new unit is chosen as "si" (to keep things simple), calc-convert-units returns "0.44704 kg". Clearly, the new expression on the stack is not equal to the old expression on the stack before calc-convert-units was cold. That's very irritating for a command that is supposed to perform a conversion. It is like having a command for converting octal numbers into decimal numbers, which, during the conversion, also get multiplied by some factor 42. I just noticed: With (3) and old unit chosen as "kg", calc-convert-units offers as default for the new unit again "kg". Accepting this default gives "0.44704" (dimensionless). Here I do not understand the rationale either. - (4) fails with old and new versions of Emacs. If the old expression has no units at all, calc-convert-units asks for an old unit ("1"), then for a new unit ("m / (s mph)"), but then it simply returns "1" without any conversion. [In my own work, a conversion of type (4) rarely comes up, so it has been less annoying for me that it is not properly implemented. Still it is inconsistent.] So what am I proposing for calc-convert-units? There should be a way to perform the conversions (1) - (4) as described above such that each time the conversion corresponds to an equality. If some people like that in case (3) or (4) they can specify an extra unit for the old expression on the stack instead of dealing with dimensionless expressions, that's fine with me. But there should be a Calc option to disable this, thus implementing a conversion algorithm that is consistently based on proper equalities. Please, trust the user she knows what she wants when performing conversions (1) - (4). In a Deluxe version of calc-convert-units, the user could also get informed about the dimension of the original expression (length, time, energy, etc.) so that she can choose the new unit accordingly. There could also be a warning / error message if the dimension of the old expression and the dimension of the new unit do not match. I know that Calc has been able to work around such inconsistent dimensions. However, I do not consider this a feature, but more a source of errors in daily life. Most often, the problem was really a typo earlier in the calculation that can be detected by a warning about inconsistent dimensions. Roland From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 09 10:09:22 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2013 15:09:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46657 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U4C3M-0007ZV-TH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 10:09:21 -0500 Received: from mail-ob0-f177.google.com ([209.85.214.177]:37846) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U4C3J-0007ZM-8x for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 10:09:19 -0500 Received: by mail-ob0-f177.google.com with SMTP id wc18so4745639obb.8 for <13580@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 07:09:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:cc:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=g/wbHTPPtqH0QBSJbpw3svWoetDVuC0gE0WjQmRoYiM=; b=AO93tluMlDvfEoY8M+1WdmDepyozDdIlfqJkTlbl2xQCZWYUdHw5W3fn74prIbWoJK 6TdCKtbGv4QohPGvSygHYBufept/R7PJHaMePkcWze0xwf5vbeFvhGwPxvuThqnjM9pH /OACTHkUmrKghBtK3rhnzE0HVuQVyeoaPLeYYHkFD33DXTeTRbsto0neVhn43+chZ7aI YrdZhJkKEmnlTeY7UXJBEE5OHkRKLlA74/teDVi09e0Xe9eAuX+lqevG1vpo7B4XyFmZ 4icA/kLf2aONSLtpDoZrzy1lpo70Xxf3CjeqnuoGn428JEKQtZB12+Uohx1nmJPdVwUc Fi9A== X-Received: by 10.60.172.237 with SMTP id bf13mr6911860oec.83.1360422547207; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 07:09:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from belanger-home (184-155-88-117.cpe.cableone.net. [184.155.88.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id vs4sm41815307obb.14.2013.02.09.07.09.04 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Feb 2013 07:09:05 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Belanger To: "Roland Winkler" Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> <83haln8ars.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3qi514c.fsf@gmail.com> <834nhm97y9.fsf@gnu.org> <20757.55102.322862.769049@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 09:08:53 -0600 In-Reply-To: <20757.55102.322862.769049@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Roland Winkler's message of "Fri, 8 Feb 2013 22:57:34 -0600") Message-ID: <876221zfqy.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii , 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) "Roland Winkler" writes: ... > Let's focus on what calc-convert-units should do (and mostly has > been doing previously): > > Consider the equality > > 1 mph = 0.44704 m / s (1) > > which we can read as a task for calc-convert-units: > > converting "1 mph" to the new unit "m / s" gives "0.44704 m / s" > > We can manipulate Eq. (1) in lots of ways so that it is once again > an equality that we can interpret as a different task for > calc-convert-units, for example > > 1 mph s = 0.44704 m (2) > converting "1 mph s" to the new unit "m" gives "0.44704 m" > > 1 mph s / m = 0.44704 (3) > converting "1 mph s / m" to the new unit "1" gives "0.44704" > > 1 = 0.44704 m / (s mph) (4) > converting "1" to the new unit "m/(s mph)" gives "0.44704" ... > Equations (3) and (4) correspond to "dimensionless" expressions: we > do have units (which do NOT cancel), The expression is unitless when simplified. mph s / m is equal to 0.44704, which has no units, and can easily be regarded as another way of writing 0.44704. The user can regard it either way. > - (1) and (2) are fine with old (GNU Emacs 23) and more recent > (24.2.93 and 24.3.50) versions of Emacs Okay. > With (3) and 24.3.50, calc-convert-units requests an "old unit", > which can be something like "kg". Right; as mentioned above, some might wish to interpret the expression as simply a number. Ignoring the "Old inputs:" (say, by hitting return) will bring about the GNU Emacs 23 behavior. I would think giving users the choice is good. > If the new unit is chosen as "si" (to keep things simple), > calc-convert-units returns "0.44704 kg". Clearly, the new expression > on the stack is not equal to the old expression on the stack before > calc-convert-units was cold. That's very irritating for a command > that is supposed to perform a conversion. This is also how emacs 23 works and has probably been around for a while; it isn't anything new. But I'll look into it. > I just noticed: With (3) and old unit chosen as "kg", > calc-convert-units offers as default for the new unit again "kg". That's when you do the same thing a second time, after the first time you (implicitly) said that you wanted your mass units in kg. The check to make sure that the new unit isn't the same as the old unit probably breaks because you the new units were previously given as "si" and not "kg" directly. I'll look into that. > - (4) fails with old and new versions of Emacs. If the old > expression has no units at all, calc-convert-units asks for an old > unit ("1"), then for a new unit ("m / (s mph)"), but then it > simply returns "1" without any conversion. The unit conversions does some simplifications, and 0.44704 m / (s mph) simplifies to 1. This is old behavior. > So what am I proposing for calc-convert-units? > > There should be a way to perform the conversions (1) - (4) as > described above such that each time the conversion corresponds to an > equality. The only one which doesn't work is (4), which has never worked. I'll look into it. > If some people like that in case (3) or (4) they can > specify an extra unit for the old expression on the stack instead of > dealing with dimensionless expressions, that's fine with me. Okay. The user can do it that way, or ignore the "Old unit:" part and get the classic behavior. Whatever the user wants. > Please, trust the user she knows what she wants when That's what happens. > In a Deluxe version of calc-convert-units, the user could also get > informed about the dimension of the original expression (length, > time, energy, etc.) so that she can choose the new unit accordingly. > There could also be a warning / error message if the dimension of > the old expression and the dimension of the new unit do not match. > I know that Calc has been able to work around such inconsistent > dimensions. However, I do not consider this a feature, but more a > source of errors in daily life. It's a way of trusting the user to do what she wants. But an option to at least check that the units match up was previously put in, at your request. Anyhow, the issues in the trunk are old issues which were previously unnoticed (or simply not reported), but should be taken care of. Thanks for pointing them out; I will work on them. Jay From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 09 11:14:57 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2013 16:14:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46783 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U4D4r-0001eC-4Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 11:14:57 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:43958) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U4D4o-0001e4-Ao for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 11:14:55 -0500 Received: from adsl-68-77-17-140.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net ([68.77.17.140]:46713 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1U4D4d-00028b-VW; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 11:14:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20758.30193.907510.81165@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 10:14:41 -0600 From: "Roland Winkler" To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units In-Reply-To: <876221zfqy.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> <83haln8ars.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3qi514c.fsf@gmail.com> <834nhm97y9.fsf@gnu.org> <20757.55102.322862.769049@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <876221zfqy.fsf@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.2.93.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) On Sat Feb 9 2013 Jay Belanger wrote: > > If some people like that in case (3) or (4) they can > > specify an extra unit for the old expression on the stack instead of > > dealing with dimensionless expressions, that's fine with me. > > Okay. The user can do it that way, or ignore the "Old unit:" part and > get the classic behavior. Whatever the user wants. I suggest to give Calc a user option that completely disables the question about an "old unit". If this pops up sometimes, but there is no need for this in a consistent work flow, such a question can be very distracting. (As you surely have noticed by now: I use calc-convert-units all the time!) > Thanks for pointing them out; I will work on them. Thanks, Roland From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 09 18:50:15 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2013 23:50:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47417 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U4KBQ-0004Ii-BM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 18:50:14 -0500 Received: from mail-ob0-f171.google.com ([209.85.214.171]:60227) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U4KBN-0004Ia-LX for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 18:50:10 -0500 Received: by mail-ob0-f171.google.com with SMTP id x4so4933873obh.30 for <13580@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 15:49:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:cc:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=uAs5OiVFZ+uzsOicDfPIg9imQ/qYqtzMYVdbsQwsgkI=; b=DmBeFVQIeekxEj8GKb95+nTakdVEeF1CS3kJPRAMXiX/cXzpkjsX/HdcC2zB4yIzCt aG82dyAviDEzjLbxDClyrkR80+x1FLtoHVUCqt3ZBNdgRQE+hEfcU3L0VetT2loS1VDR CJUAV9jEVgg2GqVh9Pk8zBu0mIfgGQ5W2Z2DxbXBlDVPuvZA9aqFq/wqXncuszrZWkIa PepezoXYY4uNOFTZg6QddRx+1wS88dGeKqDF08s4ZzkIuPuV7/sEqBg9jr46vQS1syXT aVgaArW2kgQrGGm3AZjHSTEoh4kINKBIUmJscrc2ysLVYETJ8KG5sUYRHC7RG7GZUmpd EA/A== X-Received: by 10.182.40.69 with SMTP id v5mr7523656obk.57.1360453797425; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 15:49:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from belanger-home (184-155-88-117.cpe.cableone.net. [184.155.88.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id rn9sm43359878obb.11.2013.02.09.15.49.55 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Feb 2013 15:49:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Belanger To: "Roland Winkler" Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> <83haln8ars.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3qi514c.fsf@gmail.com> <834nhm97y9.fsf@gnu.org> <20757.55102.322862.769049@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <876221zfqy.fsf@gmail.com> <20758.30193.907510.81165@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 17:49:44 -0600 In-Reply-To: <20758.30193.907510.81165@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Roland Winkler's message of "Sat, 9 Feb 2013 10:14:41 -0600") Message-ID: <87obftrqsn.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii , 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) "Roland Winkler" writes: ... >> Okay. The user can do it that way, or ignore the "Old unit:" part and >> get the classic behavior. Whatever the user wants. > > I suggest to give Calc a user option that completely disables the > question about an "old unit". Okay; if the variable `calc-allow-units-as-numbers' is nil, then that is disabled. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 09 19:19:44 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2013 00:19:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47448 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U4Ke0-00050r-1I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 19:19:44 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:39981) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U4Kdy-00050j-8V for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 19:19:42 -0500 Received: from adsl-68-77-17-140.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net ([68.77.17.140]:47621 helo=regnitz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1U4Kdl-0000PQ-Rl; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 19:19:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <20758.59279.788786.786417@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 18:19:27 -0600 From: "Roland Winkler" To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units In-Reply-To: <87obftrqsn.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> <83haln8ars.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3qi514c.fsf@gmail.com> <834nhm97y9.fsf@gnu.org> <20757.55102.322862.769049@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <876221zfqy.fsf@gmail.com> <20758.30193.907510.81165@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87obftrqsn.fsf@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.2 trial under 24.2.93.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) On Sat Feb 9 2013 Jay Belanger wrote: > Okay; if the variable `calc-allow-units-as-numbers' is nil, then that > is disabled. Thanks. - Shouldn't the name be reversed: calc-allow-numbers-as-units? As a physicist, I would really prefer calc-allow-dimensionless-units. Roland From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Feb 09 19:41:38 2013 Received: (at 13580) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2013 00:41:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47478 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U4KzB-0005X4-Ey for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 19:41:38 -0500 Received: from mail-ob0-f178.google.com ([209.85.214.178]:53391) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U4Kz9-0005Wx-Vp for 13580@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 19:41:36 -0500 Received: by mail-ob0-f178.google.com with SMTP id wd20so4984418obb.23 for <13580@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 16:41:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:cc:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=vWbuI8r7UCzxYCz1Alr099v5aXLM0GbZkjqtd+UaDpQ=; b=cs3bgEf+pBnHWvg/zBt5STGSx8pGlbf9LJZojjllulj8hxErAsnfI1/GMzDCRKxxgp 0zPWVSpQ40zGjMY6PRX9eKN4aCuy0bwbnOlEDrf/c/MMScfRlOyCWHgyl+uhDbYJWPCU mPV5pyICfZvfYtXxtAXZiJLL2/dyprirwCm8I934gvOq60X0fokcueIotDtBMQp2Arox VE4vUstgiWE5LrTLDRGL9kdoRyorzO6505RpTPYQwgYsoWPbIBy4l86LpEHZNlfCocHM OyZoQQmNULbLpcAhvlDGpdMBO0iI+2fb87zDfkp63+E7ktsecCXIvimJ/HngyNKJvHbf Qqmg== X-Received: by 10.60.8.199 with SMTP id t7mr7298696oea.26.1360456884093; Sat, 09 Feb 2013 16:41:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from belanger-home (184-155-88-117.cpe.cableone.net. [184.155.88.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p2sm43524766obb.6.2013.02.09.16.41.22 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Feb 2013 16:41:23 -0800 (PST) From: Jay Belanger To: "Roland Winkler" Subject: Re: bug#13580: 24.2.92; regression in calc-convert-units References: <87y5fdq72z.fsf@lukas.physics.niu.edu> <87y5fau50b.fsf@truman.edu> <20755.59013.344289.873545@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazq4su.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.3431.129502.895875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87liazn9ir.fsf@gmail.com> <20756.5321.329711.746535@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <878v6z3k2p.fsf@gmail.com> <83haln8ars.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3qi514c.fsf@gmail.com> <834nhm97y9.fsf@gnu.org> <20757.55102.322862.769049@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <876221zfqy.fsf@gmail.com> <20758.30193.907510.81165@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87obftrqsn.fsf@gmail.com> <20758.59279.788786.786417@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 18:41:11 -0600 In-Reply-To: <20758.59279.788786.786417@gargle.gargle.HOWL> (Roland Winkler's message of "Sat, 9 Feb 2013 18:19:27 -0600") Message-ID: <87k3qhroew.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 13580 Cc: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii , 13580@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: jay.p.belanger@gmail.com List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) >> Okay; if the variable `calc-allow-units-as-numbers' is nil, then that >> is disabled. > > Thanks. - Shouldn't the name be reversed: calc-allow-numbers-as-units? Well, there's a lot of information to be put into a variable name, but I thought of it as short for "Allow (expressions involving) units (to be treated) as numbers (in certain situations ...)" But ideally, the variable will probably be ignored or set once and then ignored. From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:29:07 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator