GNU bug report logs - #1326
23.0.60; Customizations cannot be saved with empty .emacs

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Message #5 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Markus Triska <markus.triska <at> gmx.at>
To: emacs-pretest-bug <at> gnu.org
Subject: 23.0.60; Customizations cannot be saved with empty .emacs
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:38:30 +0100 (CET)

When I comment out or remove all forms in .emacs, and then do:

   emacs --eval "(customize-face 'default)"

The customization buffer reads:

   To apply your changes, use the Save or Set buttons.

However, neither of them is shown.

In GNU Emacs 23.0.60.2 (i386-apple-darwin8.11.1, GTK+ Version 2.12.9)
 of 2008-11-05 on mt-computer.local
Windowing system distributor `The XFree86 Project, Inc', version 11.0.40400000
Important settings:
  value of $LC_ALL: nil
  value of $LC_COLLATE: nil
  value of $LC_CTYPE: nil
  value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil
  value of $LC_MONETARY: nil
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil
  value of $LC_TIME: nil
  value of $LANG: en_GB.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: nil
  locale-coding-system: nil
  default-enable-multibyte-characters: t

Message #8 received at 1326 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Markus Triska <markus.triska <at> gmx.at>
Cc: 1326 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1326: 23.0.60; Customizations cannot be saved with empty .emacs
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:13:18 -0500

Markus Triska wrote:

> When I comment out or remove all forms in .emacs, and then do:
>
>    emacs --eval "(customize-face 'default)"
>
> The customization buffer reads:
>
>    To apply your changes, use the Save or Set buttons.
>
> However, neither of them is shown.

Could it be that when you comment out all the lines in your .emacs,
the tool-bar is shown? The tool-bar buttons, if visible, replace the
in-buffer save/set buttons.

Message #13 received at 1326 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Markus Triska <markus.triska <at> gmx.at>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 1326 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1326: 23.0.60; Customizations cannot be saved with empty .emacs
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:30:44 +0100

Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Could it be that when you comment out all the lines in your .emacs,
> the tool-bar is shown? The tool-bar buttons, if visible, replace the
> in-buffer save/set buttons.

You're right, they are in the tool bar! It would be great if they were
in the buffer as well, so that they can be reached with the keyboard.

Message #16 received at 1326 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Markus Triska <markus.triska <at> gmx.at>
Cc: 1326 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Chong Yidong <cyd <at> stupidchicken.com>
Subject: Re: bug#1326: 23.0.60; Customizations cannot be saved with empty .emacs
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:39:03 -0500

Markus Triska wrote:

> You're right, they are in the tool bar! It would be great if they were
> in the buffer as well, so that they can be reached with the keyboard.

It was a deliberate choice to not put them in the buffer when the
tool-bar is on:

2007-07-05  Chong Yidong  <cyd <at> stupidchicken.com>
[...]
        (custom-buffer-create-internal): Insert action buttons
        only if tool bar is not used.

Message #21 received at 1326 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> suse.de>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 1326 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Markus Triska <markus.triska <at> gmx.at>,
        Chong Yidong <cyd <at> stupidchicken.com>
Subject: Re: bug#1326: 23.0.60; Customizations cannot be saved with empty .emacs
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:29:33 +0100

Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Markus Triska wrote:
>
>> You're right, they are in the tool bar! It would be great if they were
>> in the buffer as well, so that they can be reached with the keyboard.
>
> It was a deliberate choice to not put them in the buffer when the
> tool-bar is on:
>
> 2007-07-05  Chong Yidong  <cyd <at> stupidchicken.com>
> [...]
>         (custom-buffer-create-internal): Insert action buttons
>         only if tool bar is not used.

What if the buffer is later displayed in a frame without a tool bar?

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab <at> suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Message #24 received at 1326 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> suse.de>
Cc: 1326 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Markus Triska <markus.triska <at> gmx.at>,
        Chong Yidong <cyd <at> stupidchicken.com>
Subject: Re: bug#1326: 23.0.60; Customizations cannot be saved with empty .emacs
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 18:09:25 -0500

I'm inclined just to remove this feature; but I'm hoping to hear why
it was added.

Message #29 received at 1326 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Chong Yidong <cyd <at> stupidchicken.com>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> suse.de>, 1326 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
        Markus Triska <markus.triska <at> gmx.at>
Subject: Re: bug#1326: 23.0.60; Customizations cannot be saved with empty .emacs
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 18:29:19 -0500

Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I'm inclined just to remove this feature; but I'm hoping to hear why
> it was added.

It was added to prevent redundancy between having buttons in the toolbar
and functionally identical buttons in the button.  Remove it if you
like; I don't feel strongly about it.

Message #32 received at 1326 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Chong Yidong <cyd <at> stupidchicken.com>
Cc: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> suse.de>, 1326 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
        Markus Triska <markus.triska <at> gmx.at>
Subject: Re: bug#1326: 23.0.60; Customizations cannot be saved with empty .emacs
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 18:57:38 -0500

Chong Yidong wrote:

> It was added to prevent redundancy between having buttons in the toolbar
> and functionally identical buttons in the button.  Remove it if you
> like; I don't feel strongly about it.

I don't either; but I think Andreas's scenario, albeit unlikely, might
be enough reason to remove it.

Message #37 received at 1326 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane <at> imap.cc>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, 1326 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1326: 23.0.60; Customizations cannot be saved with empty .emacs
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:28:09 +0100

On Sun, Nov 16 2008, Glenn Morris wrote:

> Chong Yidong wrote:
>> It was added to prevent redundancy between having buttons in the toolbar
>> and functionally identical buttons in the button.  Remove it if you
>> like; I don't feel strongly about it.
>
> I don't either; but I think Andreas's scenario, albeit unlikely, might
> be enough reason to remove it.

Here's another reason: The icons are not (and probably cannot be)
clear enough.  You have to hover over them and read the tool-tips to
find out what they do.

(Maybe it's worth to make it customizable.)

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Message #42 received at 1326 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 1326 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1326: 23.0.60; Customizations cannot be saved with empty .emacs
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:25:28 -0500

>>> It was added to prevent redundancy between having buttons in the toolbar
>>> and functionally identical buttons in the button.  Remove it if you
>>> like; I don't feel strongly about it.
>> 
>> I don't either; but I think Andreas's scenario, albeit unlikely, might
>> be enough reason to remove it.

I agree that this "feature" might better be removed (i.e. the redundant
bindings should be left alone).  It's not like Emacs never has redundant
ways to get at something.


        Stefan


PS: Some other redundancies that come to mind are the major&minor mode
menus that are present both in the menu bar and by clicking on the
mode's lighter in the mode-line.

Message #47 received at 1326-done <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: 1326-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1326: 23.0.60; Customizations cannot be saved with empty .emacs
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:28:30 -0500

I've removed this feature - now the in-buffer buttons are always shown.

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