From unknown Tue Jun 17 20:16:22 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#12948 <12948@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#12948 <12948@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 24.1; wrong angle brackets Reply-To: bug#12948 <12948@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 03:16:22 +0000 retitle 12948 24.1; wrong angle brackets reassign 12948 emacs submitter 12948 Mattias Engdeg=C3=A5rd severity 12948 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 20 18:16:57 2012 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Nov 2012 23:16:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57542 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Tax3p-0007Ed-2m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 18:16:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:38343) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Tawme-0006q5-6L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 17:59:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TawlT-0002LP-Nt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 17:58:00 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:37115) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TawlT-0002LL-LM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 17:57:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42694) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TawlS-0007Q8-Li for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 17:57:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TawlR-0002L8-5E for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 17:57:58 -0500 Received: from smtprelay-h31.telenor.se ([213.150.131.4]:39945) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TawlQ-0002Kp-QV for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 17:57:57 -0500 Received: from ipb2.telenor.se (ipb2.telenor.se [195.54.127.165]) by smtprelay-h31.telenor.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D698E93B5 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 23:57:53 +0100 (CET) X-SMTPAUTH-B2: [mategn] X-SENDER-IP: [85.229.40.5] X-LISTENER: [smtp.bredband.net] X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av+DAHIKrFBV5SgFPGdsb2JhbABEgkKIGLAjh18WAwEBAQE4NIIeAT4CLwEEO3RLh3Oda5EIkECMToNnYQOXGpIVgWM X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.83,289,1352070000"; d="scan'208";a="449523634" Received: from c-0528e555.032-29-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se ([85.229.40.5]) by ipb2.telenor.se with ESMTP; 20 Nov 2012 23:57:53 +0100 Message-Id: <8B118AE0-D73E-4354-BFCD-6FBA32DFC821@bredband.net> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=E5rd?= To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: 24.1; wrong angle brackets Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 23:57:51 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 208.118.235.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.1 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 18:16:55 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.1 (------) This bug report will be sent to the Bug-GNU-Emacs mailing list and the GNU bug tracker at debbugs.gnu.org. Please check that the From: line contains a valid email address. After a delay of up to one day, you should receive an acknowledgement at that address. Please write in English if possible, as the Emacs maintainers usually do not have translators for other languages. Please describe exactly what actions triggered the bug, and the precise symptoms of the bug. If you can, give a recipe starting from `emacs -Q': With the TeX input method, \langle and \rangle yield the deprecated characters U+2329 and U+232A rather than the ones at U+27E8 and U+27E9 which are for mathematical use and Western languages. The former characters should not be used; they are troublesome because of their canonical equivalence to CJK punctuation, and are frequently rendered (correctly) as having the full width of a CJK character. These definitions are in leim/quail/latin-ltx.el. The same file also produces the deprecated angle brackets from \leftparengtr and \rightparengtr, but this makes even less sense, since those names should properly be used for U+2993 and U+2994, unless I'm completely mistaken. If Emacs crashed, and you have the Emacs process in the gdb debugger, please include the output from the following gdb commands: `bt full' and `xbacktrace'. For information about debugging Emacs, please read the file /usr/local/emacs/24.1/share/emacs/24.1/etc/DEBUG. In GNU Emacs 24.1.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, X toolkit, Xaw3d scroll bars) of 2012-07-30 on bach Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11003000 Configured using: `configure 'CC=/usr/local/gcc/4.3.4/bin/gcc' '--prefix=/usr/local/emacs/24.1'' Important settings: value of $LC_ALL: nil value of $LC_COLLATE: C value of $LC_CTYPE: nil value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil value of $LC_MONETARY: nil value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil value of $LC_TIME: nil value of $LANG: sv_SE.UTF-8 value of $XMODIFIERS: nil locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix default enable-multibyte-characters: t Major mode: Lisp Interaction Minor modes in effect: tooltip-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t menu-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t blink-cursor-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t line-number-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t Recent input: M-x r e p o r t SPC e m SPC SPC Recent messages: For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a. Load-path shadows: None found. Features: (shadow sort gnus-util mail-extr emacsbug message format-spec rfc822 mml easymenu mml-sec mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail regexp-opt rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils time-date tooltip ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel x-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image fringe lisp-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev minibuffer loaddefs button faces cus-face files text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote make-network-process dynamic-setting font-render-setting x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 23 16:17:09 2012 Received: (at 12948) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Nov 2012 21:17:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35300 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Tc0cX-0003Ht-Eu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 16:17:09 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.182]:36588) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Tc0cW-0003Hn-B5 for 12948@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 16:17:08 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAG6Zu09FpaQ6/2dsb2JhbABEtBGBCIIVAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiBwFC7l+kEQDiEKacYFYgwc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,637,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="208343312" Received: from 69-165-164-58.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.165.164.58]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 23 Nov 2012 16:15:39 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 23459597C9; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 16:15:38 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Mattias =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engdeg=E5rd?= Subject: Re: bug#12948: 24.1; wrong angle brackets Message-ID: References: <8B118AE0-D73E-4354-BFCD-6FBA32DFC821@bredband.net> Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 16:15:38 -0500 In-Reply-To: <8B118AE0-D73E-4354-BFCD-6FBA32DFC821@bredband.net> ("Mattias =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engdeg=E5rd=22's?= message of "Tue, 20 Nov 2012 23:57:51 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12948 Cc: 12948@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) > With the TeX input method, \langle and \rangle yield the deprecated > characters U+2329 and U+232A rather than the ones at U+27E8 and U+27E9 > which are for mathematical use and Western languages. The former > characters should not be used; they are troublesome because of their > canonical equivalence to CJK punctuation, and are frequently rendered > (correctly) as having the full width of a CJK character. Sounds OK. BTW why not 3008 and 3009 instead? > These definitions are in leim/quail/latin-ltx.el. The same file also > produces the deprecated angle brackets from \leftparengtr and > \rightparengtr, but this makes even less sense, since those names should > properly be used for U+2993 and U+2994, unless I'm completely mistaken. This is less clear. I can't find any of \leftparengtr or \rightparengtr in any TeX package on my system. Searching for them on the web, leads to more confusion. Basically, I think that 2994 for \rightparengtr would be OK (tho it seems that there's a TeX package that provides it under the name \rparengtr), but for \leftparengtr http://www.w3.org/Math/characters/iso8879/isoamsc.html seems to suggest that 29a0 is a better choice (after all, 2993 is a left paren with a "less-than" rather than "greater-than" in it). WDYT? Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 24 07:41:40 2012 Received: (at 12948) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2012 12:41:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36064 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TcF3E-0002Yp-5V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 07:41:40 -0500 Received: from smtprelay-b21.telenor.se ([195.54.99.212]:46946) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TcF2w-0002YS-UU for 12948@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 07:41:37 -0500 Received: from ipb3.telenor.se (ipb3.telenor.se [195.54.127.166]) by smtprelay-b21.telenor.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51549EB1D0 for <12948@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:39:50 +0100 (CET) X-SMTPAUTH-B2: [mategn] X-SENDER-IP: [85.229.46.61] X-LISTENER: [smtp.bredband.net] X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AitUAB+/sFBV5S49PGdsb2JhbABEgkK9fRYDAQEBATg0gh4BAQMBATgCOAcFCwtGQxQGHId+Cgi+NYw3g2BhA6k1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.83,313,1352070000"; d="scan'208";a="235923264" Received: from c-3d2ee555.032-29-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se ([85.229.46.61]) by ipb3.telenor.se with ESMTP; 24 Nov 2012 13:39:49 +0100 Message-Id: From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=E5rd?= To: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: bug#12948: 24.1; wrong angle brackets Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:39:49 +0100 References: <8B118AE0-D73E-4354-BFCD-6FBA32DFC821@bredband.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12948 Cc: 12948@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) [ Sorry about the duplicate; now the right recipients ] 23 nov 2012 kl. 22.15 skrev Stefan Monnier: >> With the TeX input method, \langle and \rangle yield the deprecated >> characters U+2329 and U+232A rather than the ones at U+27E8 and U >> +27E9 >> which are for mathematical use and Western languages. The former >> characters should not be used; they are troublesome because of their >> canonical equivalence to CJK punctuation, and are frequently rendered >> (correctly) as having the full width of a CJK character. > > Sounds OK. BTW why not 3008 and 3009 instead? U+3008 and U+3009 are the CJK brackets that U+2329 and U+232A are canonically equivalent to. They are full-width, so they don't go well typographically with Western languages or formal notation, where use of \rangle and \langle is intended. There could also be other differences in appearance (stroke width, height and so on). >> These definitions are in leim/quail/latin-ltx.el. The same file also >> produces the deprecated angle brackets from \leftparengtr and >> \rightparengtr, but this makes even less sense, since those names >> should >> properly be used for U+2993 and U+2994, unless I'm completely >> mistaken. > > This is less clear. I can't find any of \leftparengtr or > \rightparengtr > in any TeX package on my system. Searching for them on the web, leads > to more confusion. Basically, I think that 2994 for \rightparengtr > would be OK (tho it seems that there's a TeX package that provides it > under the name \rparengtr), but for \leftparengtr > http://www.w3.org/Math/characters/iso8879/isoamsc.html seems to > suggest > that 29a0 is a better choice (after all, 2993 is a left paren with > a "less-than" rather than "greater-than" in it). Yes, you are probably right, but it's not crystal clear. U+2994 and U +29A0 seem accurate at first blush, but the Unicode reference chart (http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2980.pdf ) does not render them in a way that suggests any relation between them. U+2993 and U+2994 are more obviously rendered as a pair, but as you say the name \leftparengtr would not make sense for U+2993. By the way, the mirror of U+29A0 is U+2222, which in TeX is \sphericalangle. In addition, the Unicode metadata marks U+2994 as a closing paired delimiter and U+2993 as an opening one. U+29A0 and U+2222 are just marked as symbols. If I were emperor of Emacs, I would delete them from latin-ltx.el and ask anyone who complains to give references, but if you prefer to keep them but changed to U+2994 and U+29A0 (which are the only characters that make sense after all), then please do so. The current definitions are clearly wrong. > WDYT? Sorry, I didn't understand that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 04 16:19:34 2012 Received: (at 12948-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Dec 2012 21:19:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53693 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Tfztu-0004xJ-Du for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:19:34 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.182]:54001) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Tfzts-0004xB-RG for 12948-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:19:33 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAG6Zu09soXOY/2dsb2JhbABEtBGBCIIVAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiBwFugmQRAOIQppxgViDBw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,637,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="209084109" Received: from 108-161-115-152.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([108.161.115.152]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 04 Dec 2012 16:19:28 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 8114658C73; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 16:19:28 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: Mattias =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engdeg=E5rd?= Subject: Re: bug#12948: 24.1; wrong angle brackets Message-ID: References: <8B118AE0-D73E-4354-BFCD-6FBA32DFC821@bredband.net> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:19:28 -0500 In-Reply-To: ("Mattias =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engdeg=E5rd=22's?= message of "Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:39:49 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12948-done Cc: 12948-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) >> Sounds OK. BTW why not 3008 and 3009 instead? > U+3008 and U+3009 are the CJK brackets that U+2329 and U+232A are > canonically equivalent to. OK, done. > If I were emperor of Emacs, I would delete them from latin-ltx.el and ask > anyone who complains to give references, but if you prefer to keep them but > changed to U+2994 and U+29A0 (which are the only characters that make sense > after all), then please do so. The current definitions are clearly wrong. Not being an emperor, I deleted them but I won't ask people to complain. Thank you, Stefan From unknown Tue Jun 17 20:16:22 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 12:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator