From unknown Sat Jun 21 03:16:48 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#12507 <12507@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#12507 <12507@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 24.2.50; `bookmark-write-file': use `write-file', not `write-region', to get backups Reply-To: bug#12507 <12507@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 10:16:48 +0000 retitle 12507 24.2.50; `bookmark-write-file': use `write-file', not `write-= region', to get backups reassign 12507 emacs submitter 12507 "Drew Adams" severity 12507 wishlist tag 12507 notabug thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 24 14:44:00 2012 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Sep 2012 18:44:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53577 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGDdP-0007s4-OC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:44:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:59135) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGDdN-0007rv-7X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:43:58 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TGDbV-0002U5-2Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:42:01 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:38563) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TGDbU-0002U1-VC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:42:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:48741) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TGDbT-0007Ag-US for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:42:00 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TGDbS-0002TW-Pn for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:41:59 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:43189) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TGDbS-0002TP-JW for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:41:58 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8OIftpu019642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 18:41:56 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8OIfsVc025340 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 18:41:54 GMT Received: from abhmt117.oracle.com (abhmt117.oracle.com [141.146.116.69]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8OIfr3Q008703 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 13:41:53 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.184.43) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 11:41:53 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 24.2.50; `bookmark-write-file': use `write-file', not `write-region', to get backups Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 11:41:39 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Thread-Index: Ac2ahDvlafFaZnD7TQiYo3vn9G5VoQ== X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 208.118.235.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.1 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.1 (------) I believe that `bookmark-write-file' should use `write-file', not `write-region', because otherwise no backup file is made for the user's bookmark file. The original code used `write-file'. The change was made to use `write-region' on 2005-11-12: Revision ID: kfogel@red-bean.com-20051112203022-g0v8q4n9urlfew61 (bookmark-write-file): Don't visit the destination file, just write the data to it using write-region. This is similar to revision 1.32 of saveplace.el, but with an additional change to avoid visiting the file in the first place. I'm no expert on this, but from what I see by experimenting, using `write-region' means that no backup is made, and using `write-file' creates a backup. It is important for users to be able to have a backup for their bookmark file. In GNU Emacs 24.2.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2012-09-17 on MARVIN Bzr revision: 110062 cyd@gnu.org-20120917054104-r93rtwkrtva73ewe Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 Configured using: `configure --with-gcc (4.7) --no-opt --enable-checking --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/src -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libpng-dev_1.4.3-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/zlib-dev_1.2.5-2/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-3.0.9/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libiconv-1.13.1-1-dev/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libxml2-2.7.8/include/libxml2' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 25 01:51:12 2012 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Sep 2012 05:51:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54190 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGO36-0000JZ-72 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 01:51:12 -0400 Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com ([209.85.160.44]:42769) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGO34-0000JS-5w for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 01:51:10 -0400 Received: by pbbro8 with SMTP id ro8so3066068pbb.3 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 22:49:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=aWr0ehVE7hRkI5nRr41xeCtcDbsxaqoI8iqCOVw3qyw=; b=zH1dC0negMpbf7FelgH2lj++9XNed1GcL+RHQnxiGoEdnS02qIcfuuv7lJ8gHtOhR9 Lr8dAAjMQ8czpK6jlxoaLwAasDNEboERuqD/0VebpF0HqkFSB6T5o8jdO4WcbEO43Pw+ K/aiiZDhmaEmzBaSENZd4J/nqkpi88AqjW9i8YSLUTdNiEF04Q4CHbn6f+QlkcrcI9SD G6BOmncPnCa9muYufSZrRT2RZ1OS75Rynqlj7/Gpbj7aFklk4iBMbtITiYxI20RDMeKY 91x6He113UvOQRMZArwW+vxPH0m5O/c7CHyr96msD98L+0dqJKVQ9do0vZeQRpqQQ+Zj fl6A== Received: by 10.68.197.70 with SMTP id is6mr42588502pbc.64.1348552151460; Mon, 24 Sep 2012 22:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ulysses ([155.69.16.255]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y11sm10790592pbv.66.2012.09.24.22.49.08 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 24 Sep 2012 22:49:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Chong Yidong To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:49:05 +0800 Message-ID: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) severity 12507 wishlist thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 25 09:56:24 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Sep 2012 13:56:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55299 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGVcX-0005Zu-1L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:56:20 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:48295) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGVcM-0005Zp-6Q for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:56:08 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8PDs3FE006354 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:54:04 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8PDs2Gc016372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:54:03 GMT Received: from abhmt101.oracle.com (abhmt101.oracle.com [141.146.116.53]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8PDs2X8009882; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 08:54:02 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.183.137) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 06:54:02 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Chong Yidong'" , <12507@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 06:53:45 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Ac2a4aA4FcRmX0qESwed9GuShhqc0wAQXhtA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) Why on earth would you relegate this to the wishlist? This is about possible loss of user data. I provided the fix, which takes 5 seconds to implement. What's the problem? Am I wrong that `write-region' does not provide for backups? If not, then this is clearly a bug, and a pretty serious one, IMO. bookmark.el even provides a user option, `bookmark-version-control', for deciding whether and when to make numbered backups of the bookmark file. AFAICT, that cannot possibly work if `write-region' does not create backups, as is apparently the case. FWIW, I made the same fix in Bookmark+. I just think vanilla Emacs should benefit its users as well. Please read the bug report again and reconsider. Thx. > > severity 12507 wishlist > > Bug #12507 [emacs] 24.2.50; `bookmark-write-file': use > > `write-file', not `write-region', to get backups > > Severity set to 'wishlist' from 'normal' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 25 22:56:06 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Sep 2012 02:56:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55997 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGhnA-00086o-LF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 22:56:06 -0400 Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com ([209.85.160.44]:46232) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGhn6-00086L-QA for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 22:56:01 -0400 Received: by pbbro8 with SMTP id ro8so1161953pbb.3 for <12507@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 19:53:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=FP0LdlJ2LhMjFhqJZdqOgRvWBrU/ayccAQiVz/O2EVw=; b=YS+otOugZuxXgsoq7V7ptJocF5mP4E4Rz6auJd2jaqRBdkmXHvPTTXbUAUPO1jKhcQ sRDyqy/A4FUHvIIM/FHqiMuTZNcyhcPgBlVagpnXRgNNEvuBc03+Lz4deonJT/u/J2fi aqs3loRQL7rKFw7PhZcztb6ZL2eaArPQv33TJ0m7P6U2YYdq/msF1uENYIc9lQW60Gqm gf26KI7++/fAkKIkb7YgVwTarUYu/slSM2ltpXFBWVZOeFhEKlBEirxoa2zuFVuidLYJ cDDw7RXf6YgN6ClBUWIsRFq7k6xlrht/v1Tk0gAIiKZkhv6Iu9BQccxRvd236shKQKSv vm1A== Received: by 10.68.236.67 with SMTP id us3mr25262318pbc.28.1348628037022; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 19:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ulysses ([155.69.16.255]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gf3sm1253005pbc.74.2012.09.25.19.53.53 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 25 Sep 2012 19:53:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Chong Yidong To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 10:53:50 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 25 Sep 2012 06:53:45 -0700") Message-ID: <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) "Drew Adams" writes: > Am I wrong that `write-region' does not provide for backups? > If not, then this is clearly a bug, and a pretty serious one, IMO. It would be annoying litter the filesystem with backups for every internal configuration file. The abbrev file and desktop file are not backed up either, and I think that's fine. I wouldn't mind adding a global feature to optionally enable backups for such files. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 25 23:20:50 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Sep 2012 03:20:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56024 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGiB8-00017n-09 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 23:20:50 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:31567) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGiB5-00017c-P1 for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 23:20:48 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8Q3IhSD028920 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 26 Sep 2012 03:18:44 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8Q3IgBu015282 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Sep 2012 03:18:42 GMT Received: from abhmt111.oracle.com (abhmt111.oracle.com [141.146.116.63]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8Q3Ig4C006720; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 22:18:42 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.183.137) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 25 Sep 2012 20:18:41 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Chong Yidong'" References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 20:18:22 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: Ac2bki5ssaB6Kek7StaeDuEfETufhQAABcrg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > > Am I wrong that `write-region' does not provide for backups? > > If not, then this is clearly a bug, and a pretty serious one, IMO. > > It would be annoying litter the filesystem with backups for every > internal configuration file. Why not let _users_ decide what is annoying to them and their filesystems? Some users (and I know some) might well want a backup file for their bookmarks. See bug #12503 for a hint why. But if you've already decided that a fix for this bug is not to be, because it is a bad idea for a user to back up her bookmark file, then why send this bug to the wishlist instead of marking it wontfix? Or does wishlist for you really mean the same thing as wontfix? > The abbrev file and desktop file are not > backed up either, and I think that's fine. Is your `custom-file' an "internal configuration file"? Do you back it up? It is not just about what you think is fine for users - not when it comes to user data. It's about what individual users think about their data. Let them decide, please. And as I said, we even have a user option for whether you want your bookmark-file backups to be numbered: `bookmark-version-control'. Imagine that! Besides `version-control', which applies to all files, we even give you a special option that applies only to your bookmark file. What do you think is the point of that option, if your bookmark file is in fact NEVER backed up at all? Do you not see a bug here? > I wouldn't mind adding a global feature to optionally enable > backups for such files. Fine. Let users enable backups, please. I have no problem with making that a user option. But in that case please document the fact that `bookmark-version-control' has no effect when your new option is turned off (no backups). Let's make it as clear as possible how to (a) turn backing up on/off and (b) control the backup naming when on. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 26 00:06:58 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Sep 2012 04:06:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56061 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGitm-0002B5-Je for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 00:06:58 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.182]:3539) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGitl-0002Ay-ED for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 00:06:57 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAG6Zu09FxLT4/2dsb2JhbABEtBGBCIIVAQEEAVYjBQsLNBIUGA0kiBwFugmQRAOjM4FYgwU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,637,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="199990586" Received: from 69-196-180-248.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.180.248]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 26 Sep 2012 00:04:53 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id CFA7C58EAB; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 00:04:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Message-ID: References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 00:04:52 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 25 Sep 2012 20:18:22 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' , 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) > the wishlist instead of marking it wontfix? Or does wishlist for you really > mean the same thing as wontfix? wishlist means "patches welcome". Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 26 10:19:52 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Sep 2012 14:19:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57189 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGsSt-0001Fi-Ul for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 10:19:52 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:39190) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGsSr-0001Fb-GI for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 10:19:50 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8QEJirQ032641 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:19:45 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8QEJhdQ018510 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:19:43 GMT Received: from abhmt117.oracle.com (abhmt117.oracle.com [141.146.116.69]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8QEJgZP025747; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 09:19:42 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.176.54) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 07:19:42 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org><873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 07:19:22 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Ac2bnBcy6qXAfQ6oSsGqbw/PiKWK7QAVOTHA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' , 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > > the wishlist instead of marking it wontfix? Or does > > wishlist for you really mean the same thing as wontfix? > > wishlist means "patches welcome". Oh, come on. I provided the patch: use `write-file' instead of `write-region'. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 26 15:46:09 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Sep 2012 19:46:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57386 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGxYe-0000Mv-Qt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:46:09 -0400 Received: from pruche.dit.umontreal.ca ([132.204.246.22]:47919) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGxYc-0000Mn-UN for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:46:07 -0400 Received: from faina.iro.umontreal.ca (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242]) by pruche.dit.umontreal.ca (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q8QJk4HF014646; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:46:05 -0400 Received: by faina.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 5A25DB404D; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:46:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Message-ID: References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:46:04 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 26 Sep 2012 07:19:22 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' , 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.3 (----) >> > the wishlist instead of marking it wontfix? Or does >> > wishlist for you really mean the same thing as wontfix? >> wishlist means "patches welcome". > Oh, come on. I provided the patch: use `write-file' instead of > `write-region'. Oh come on, you know it's not good enough because we'd rather not have backups by default. Stetfan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 26 16:31:10 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Sep 2012 20:31:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57448 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGyGD-0001Ox-JX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:31:10 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:24893) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGyGC-0001On-0B for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:31:08 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8QKV4NS018727 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:31:05 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8QKV3VK011597 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:31:04 GMT Received: from abhmt104.oracle.com (abhmt104.oracle.com [141.146.116.56]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8QKV3d1026286; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:31:03 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.248) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:31:03 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Stefan Monnier'" References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org><873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:31:02 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Ac2cH5fmTbpvhZCjQiCCDvQM7F+DVgABU8UQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' , 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > Oh come on, you know it's not good enough because we'd rather not have > backups by default. You don't have backups at all. So maybe you'd better get rid of option `bookmark-version-control', while waiting for your wishlist to come true someday. Someone obviously did prefer to have backups by default, and not only by default, or you wouldn't have that neutered option hanging around as a vestige. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 26 17:46:36 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Sep 2012 21:46:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57556 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGzRE-00039F-IV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:46:36 -0400 Received: from mail-ie0-f172.google.com ([209.85.223.172]:58589) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TGzRC-000398-E8 for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:46:36 -0400 Received: by iec9 with SMTP id 9so2805382iec.3 for <12507@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:46:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=WmCbTw6JjBUF0fCAHNm86ihH0btxsrr43hCUZtDK6Ww=; b=L86VvAkkJONIDcBgjxbPE2UYgjbwRzABKV/Xqd+G+mGk9XXyay8unrwF4xkE5qSEzv CHEudpVezJTwq0qIcaqHtfYzP4Zb25oLt6EpYw1Pisvlhw0qJOj9/pWyGsTuyQJT2LL3 AITzeHaQq7qXgH7XlTGoJZZvJ5rPCk4c959V+3ZkS7QGncWHxBvTV7bFPEGqFIu2DigN Rg5gzseiSvgATBDyqI2rngC1RZ3AfaFRSjJFF/wqS6eK4xg3Ycvod6jK+CBbnSDnSubS 3veWc/WUdnoGnFO6vTdHU/HjwoFYD7g6i5/7ZLeKA8a7BdqtfnocDRkosHH8BmM2mXAe G42w== Received: by 10.50.220.129 with SMTP id pw1mr2222401igc.47.1348695993506; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kwarm.red-bean.com (74-92-190-113-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [74.92.190.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8sm3640783ige.11.2012.09.26.14.46.29 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:46:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Karl Fogel To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:46:28 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 25 Sep 2012 20:18:22 -0700") Message-ID: <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: Karl Fogel List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) I propose the following fix: * As Drew suggested, change `bookmark-write-file' to use `write-file' instead of `write-region'. * Also change the default value of `bookmark-version-control' to be `nil' instead of `nospecial', so that backups of the bookmark data file are no longer on by default (unless there are already backup files present). But... the only thing that makes me hesitate is the first step, because back in 2005 we changed `bookmark-write-file' to use `write-region': 2005-11-12 Karl Fogel * bookmark.el (bookmark-write-file): Don't visit the destination file, just write the data to it using write-region. This is similar to revision 1.32 of saveplace.el, but with an additional change to avoid visiting the file in the first place. The corresponding change in saveplace.el has just this comment: ;; Don't use write-file; we don't want this buffer to visit it. Why didn't we want to visit the file? Was there some reason why that was a bad thing? Unfortunately, I don't remember, but I don't want to introduce a regression. Drew or anyone, any idea what problem we were avoiding? The status quo does seem a bug. There are two fixes: make backups work again, or deprecate `bookmark-version-control' and don't claim that the bookmark data file can have automatic backups. (In the meantime, Drew's suggestion in #12503 that `print-circle' be bound to `t' seems right to me -- I'm trying to get outstanding bookmark.el bugs fixed in time for the feature freeze on Oct. 1 and that should be one of the fixes. If so, then one of the reasons for being able to back up the bookmarks data file will go away anyway.) -Karl "Drew Adams" writes: >It is not just about what you think is fine for users - not when it comes to >user data. It's about what individual users think about their data. Let them >decide, please. > >And as I said, we even have a user option for whether you want your >bookmark-file backups to be numbered: `bookmark-version-control'. Imagine that! >Besides `version-control', which applies to all files, we even give you a >special option that applies only to your bookmark file. > >[...] > >What do you think is the point of that option, if your bookmark file is in fact >NEVER backed up at all? Do you not see a bug here? > >> I wouldn't mind adding a global feature to optionally enable >> backups for such files. > >Fine. Let users enable backups, please. I have no problem with making that a >user option. > >But in that case please document the fact that `bookmark-version-control' has no >effect when your new option is turned off (no backups). Let's make it as clear >as possible how to (a) turn backing up on/off and (b) control the backup naming >when on. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 26 18:26:18 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Sep 2012 22:26:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57607 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TH03d-000428-LL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:26:18 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:48896) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TH03a-000420-Qq for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:26:16 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8QMQCGL009780 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:26:13 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8QMQBAW019498 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:26:11 GMT Received: from abhmt113.oracle.com (abhmt113.oracle.com [141.146.116.65]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8QMQAi6009785; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:26:10 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.248) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:26:10 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Karl Fogel'" References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org><873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:26:09 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> Thread-Index: Ac2cMGYpBiuVw5cCQXO1X+2HOcKqCAAAJxHA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > I propose the following fix: > > * As Drew suggested, change `bookmark-write-file' to use > `write-file' instead of `write-region'. > > * Also change the default value of `bookmark-version-control' to be > `nil' instead of `nospecial', so that backups of the bookmark data > file are no longer on by default (unless there are already backup > files present). But how does that help a user turn backup on in the first place? Not a rhetorical question - I really don't know. How should a user create the first backup file? What would the doc suggest to the user for that? Copy the file to one with a `~' suffix (error prone)? Visit the bookmark file, type SPC then DEL, then `C-x C-s' (error prone)? What is an easy, sure way for a user who has never backed up a file (one that is not typically visited interactively) to create a backup? The question is not bookmark-specific. I don't know a good answer. It's probably obvious, but I'm not seeing it. > But... the only thing that makes me hesitate is the first > step, because back in 2005 we changed `bookmark-write-file' to use > `write-region': > > 2005-11-12 Karl Fogel > * bookmark.el (bookmark-write-file): Don't visit the > destination file, just write the data to it using > write-region. This is similar to revision 1.32 of > saveplace.el, but with an additional change to avoid > visiting the file in the first place. > > The corresponding change in saveplace.el has just this comment: > > ;; Don't use write-file; we don't want this buffer to visit it. > > Why didn't we want to visit the file? Was there some reason why that > was a bad thing? Unfortunately, I don't remember, but I don't want to > introduce a regression. > > Drew or anyone, any idea what problem we were avoiding? Sorry, I don't know. I bisected the change logs from the start, to locate that commit as the culprit change. But I don't know more than what the log says. Perhaps the reason was what Yidong expressed: a belief that a bookmark file is only an "internal configuration file", rather than user data (presumably because users do not typically edit it directly). His contention is that backing up the file would annoy users by littering their filesystems. If that was the rationale for the 2005 change then it was misguided, IMO. A bookmark file is not just an internal config file. It contains user data that can be valuable (to users). Among other things, it can contain metadata (e.g. annotations) about other files. It has some things in common with Org mode for keeping track of positions and other relations among documents. Users can make mistakes that lead to losing individual bookmarks that they might really want to keep, or even to losing all bookmarks. In the other direction, it is very easy to load a second bookmark file into your main bookmark file and save the result without necessarily meaning to. To get back what you had (by deleting the additions or replacing the replacements) is laborious and error prone, unless you have a backup copy. For such reasons, some users might want to have automatic backup for their bookmarks. I agree that backup should be optional and up to the user, of course. > The status quo does seem a bug. There are two fixes: make > backups work again, or deprecate `bookmark-version-control' > and don't claim that the bookmark data file can have automatic backups. > > (In the meantime, Drew's suggestion in #12503 that `print-circle' be > bound to `t' seems right to me -- I'm trying to get outstanding > bookmark.el bugs fixed in time for the feature freeze on Oct. > 1 and that should be one of the fixes. If so, then one of the reasons > for being able to back up the bookmarks data file will go away anyway.) Thank you for that, in advance. There are however plenty of other ways a user can lose a bookmark file that took a long time to construct. To me, we should not only provide automatic backup but turn it on by default. (Would I apply the same arguments to some other "internal config files"? Dunno/depends. Maybe desktop files. A lot depends on how important the given "config" might be to a user and how long it takes to reconstruct it from scratch. In any case, I don't buy the blanket argument that dot files or "internal config files" are necessarily things that a user does not want backed up.) --- I would in any case like to know an answer to my question above about creating the first backup. I also have a question about the idiom to use that would make a code change analogous to the write-region --> write-file change discussed, but for (write-region (point-min) (point-max 'APPEND), i.e., for appending the buffer content to a file. It's not clear to me what the best way would be to replace that code with code that will not only append and write but also back up (if backing up is enabled). I can code something up by appending the text to a buffer and then calling `save-buffer' etc., but I wonder if there isn't some standard, simple way to get this effect. Thx - Drew From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 26 19:36:20 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Sep 2012 23:36:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57662 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TH19Q-0005ez-2F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:36:20 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:27758) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TH19L-0005eo-HH for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:36:18 -0400 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8QNaCRO032188 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:36:13 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8QNaCaC028939 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:36:12 GMT Received: from abhmt108.oracle.com (abhmt108.oracle.com [141.146.116.60]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8QNaC6B011951; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:36:12 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/71.202.147.44) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:36:11 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Karl Fogel'" References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org><873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org><87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:36:10 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Ac2cMGYpBiuVw5cCQXO1X+2HOcKqCAAAJxHAAAOWciA= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > > * Also change the default value of `bookmark-version-control' > > to be `nil' instead of `nospecial', so that backups of the > > bookmark data file are no longer on by default (unless there > > are already backup files present). > > But how does that help a user turn backup on in the first > place? Not a rhetorical question - I really don't know. > How should a user create the first backup file? > > What would the doc suggest to the user for that? Copy the > file to one with a `~' suffix (error prone)? Visit the > bookmark file, type SPC then DEL, then `C-x C-s' (error prone)? > > What is an easy, sure way for a user who has never backed up > a file (one that is not typically visited interactively) to create > a backup? > > The question is not bookmark-specific. I don't know a good > answer. It's probably obvious, but I'm not seeing it. Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. It's not about creating the first backup file, but the first numbered backup file. The question remains (how do users do that?), but my examples were incorrect. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 26 23:24:55 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Sep 2012 03:24:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57780 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TH4id-0002K3-FU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:24:55 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.182]:20933) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TH4ib-0002Jw-OQ for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:24:54 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAG6Zu09FxLT4/2dsb2JhbABEtBGBCIIWAQVWIxALDiYSFBgNJIghugmQRAOjM4FYgwU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,637,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="200091950" Received: from 69-196-180-248.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.180.248]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 26 Sep 2012 23:24:51 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id ED80E5938D; Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:24:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Karl Fogel Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Message-ID: References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:24:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> (Karl Fogel's message of "Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:46:28 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) > ;; Don't use write-file; we don't want this buffer to visit it. After write-file, the buffer is marked as visiting that file, which affects the behavior of C-x C-f and a lot more (e.g. asks the user for confirmation if the file was modified by some other process, ...). Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 27 01:38:40 2012 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Sep 2012 05:38:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57829 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TH6o3-0005MW-Jj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:38:40 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53670) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TH6o1-0005MP-Ry for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:38:38 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TH6ny-0003sY-HU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:38:35 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:57033) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TH6ny-0003sU-E6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:38:34 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:33223) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TH6nw-0007mO-Tt for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:38:34 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TH6nv-0003qy-7h for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:38:32 -0400 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:34649) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TH6nv-0003qu-2A for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:38:31 -0400 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TH6nx-0003P9-OW for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:38:33 +0200 Received: from lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net ([78.243.104.167]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:38:33 +0200 Received: from thierry.volpiatto by lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:38:33 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Thierry Volpiatto Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:38:20 +0200 Organization: Emacs Helm Lines: 15 Message-ID: <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:pm0KQD7dn57gCVCiORIcIZZq+lA= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 208.118.235.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) Stefan Monnier writes: >> ;; Don't use write-file; we don't want this buffer to visit it. > > After write-file, the buffer is marked as visiting that file, which > affects the behavior of C-x C-f and a lot more (e.g. asks the user > for confirmation if the file was modified by some other process, ...). What about improving write-region to use backup when needed? Possibly writing a new write-region-something function that handle backup, or a write-file-noselect function. -- Thierry Get my Gnupg key: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 27 04:39:39 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Sep 2012 08:39:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58016 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TH9dC-0001uP-Lh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 04:39:38 -0400 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:45014 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TH9dA-0001uG-T5 for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 04:39:37 -0400 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08EB7451CCD0; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:39:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: `bookmark-write-file': use `write-file', not `write-region', to get backups Organization: JURTA References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:36:31 +0300 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 25 Sep 2012 20:18:22 -0700") Message-ID: <87k3vfq2uo.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' , 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) > Is your `custom-file' an "internal configuration file"? Do you back it up? `custom-file' has the opposite problem: it creates backups forcefully even when backups should not be created in VC-controlled directories. There is a bug in `custom-save-all', it binds `print-length' and `print-level' to nil (but not `print-circle' to t), and calls `save-buffer' that ignores the VC status and creates backups. I have no problems with backups for configuration files like e.g. .recentf~ or .emacs.desktop~ when a VCS is not used, but while implementing backups for bookmarks please take into account that it should not create backups in VC-controlled directories. I guess normal `save-buffer' or `write-file' should take care about this by creating backups only in non-VC directories, or creating numbered backups if there are already existing numbered backups. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 27 11:02:55 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Sep 2012 15:02:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59066 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THFc7-0006Dk-4i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:02:55 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:44151) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THFc5-0006De-Ob for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:02:54 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8RF2kGw010724 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:02:47 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8RF2jBt016791 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:02:45 GMT Received: from abhmt114.oracle.com (abhmt114.oracle.com [141.146.116.66]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8RF2i4f027095; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:02:45 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.162.46) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:02:44 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Juri Linkov'" References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org><873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3vfq2uo.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org> Subject: RE: bug#12507: `bookmark-write-file': use `write-file', not `write-region', to get backups Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:02:40 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87k3vfq2uo.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org> Thread-Index: Ac2ci6B03cvtDywZRzKXe68/5g7GqwANUhlA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' , 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > while implementing backups for bookmarks please take into account > that it should not create backups in VC-controlled directories. > > I guess normal `save-buffer' or `write-file' should take care > about this by creating backups only in non-VC directories, or > creating numbered backups if there are already existing numbered > backups. What you say in the second sentence sounds like the right approach. This problem doesn't sound like it is specific to bookmarks. IOW, it should be the subject of another bug ("wishlist") report. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 27 11:48:59 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Sep 2012 15:49:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59078 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THGKh-0007JP-9V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:48:59 -0400 Received: from mail-ie0-f172.google.com ([209.85.223.172]:44697) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THGKe-0007JH-AM for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:48:57 -0400 Received: by iec9 with SMTP id 9so4937052iec.3 for <12507@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:48:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=WR5TorjUMSwIjyPKvBJjIuR01Rx/Rj26AkqLxs3arp4=; b=zCulGG0YyqodrkJzf4kbQRZUa/z/cIAnWavtSoIdgj/mQIcUJ8oAppoKH6PTpvuP6x 4Zi7/hPAcGVh2Wzme4DMhc5aM0WyEoFk4wF5QFqquLnoxD90wDShm4M9MIc5NlGOrCSi iNsNEvOKwar3vHPoLlJ5EnyxrhZyyKDvE24fFgsnTkQ9T846iCrnRg4lRvfyJjQuiJ1P WCyvHTCp+wXh02dNAW2FlND/ulJfrqZ6gc2nViG9Mma6m+BsA90uTvnkw1NkbWahIBLH wNP8djx0DwJyTqMrsFMeixVI7BZ9SlP3sh//4L/uK/cbLT2FGihPCRwh2b0t+Q0ruq0w pT3Q== Received: by 10.50.236.72 with SMTP id us8mr3893862igc.70.1348760931123; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from floss.red-bean.com (173-108-184-40.pools.spcsdns.net. [173.108.184.40]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a10sm5542228igd.1.2012.09.27.08.48.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:48:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Karl Fogel To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:48:22 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:26:09 -0700") Message-ID: <87obkreabd.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: Karl Fogel List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) "Drew Adams" writes: >> >> * As Drew suggested, change `bookmark-write-file' to use >> `write-file' instead of `write-region'. >> >> * Also change the default value of `bookmark-version-control' to be >> `nil' instead of `nospecial', so that backups of the bookmark data >> file are no longer on by default (unless there are already backup >> files present). > >But how does that help a user turn backup on in the first place? Not a >rhetorical question - I really don't know. How should a user create the first >backup file? > >What would the doc suggest to the user for that? Copy the file to one with a >`~' suffix (error prone)? Visit the bookmark file, type SPC then DEL, then `C-x >C-s' (error prone)? > >What is an easy, sure way for a user who has never backed up a file >(one that is not typically visited interactively) to create a backup? Set `bookmark-version-control' to `t', of course. Best, -K >The question is not bookmark-specific. I don't know a good answer. It's >probably obvious, but I'm not seeing it. > >> But... the only thing that makes me hesitate is the first >> step, because back in 2005 we changed `bookmark-write-file' to use >> `write-region': >> >> 2005-11-12 Karl Fogel >> * bookmark.el (bookmark-write-file): Don't visit the >> destination file, just write the data to it using >> write-region. This is similar to revision 1.32 of >> saveplace.el, but with an additional change to avoid >> visiting the file in the first place. >> >> The corresponding change in saveplace.el has just this comment: >> >> ;; Don't use write-file; we don't want this buffer to visit it. >> >> Why didn't we want to visit the file? Was there some reason why that >> was a bad thing? Unfortunately, I don't remember, but I don't want to >> introduce a regression. >> >> Drew or anyone, any idea what problem we were avoiding? > >Sorry, I don't know. I bisected the change logs from the start, to locate that >commit as the culprit change. But I don't know more than what the log says. > >Perhaps the reason was what Yidong expressed: a belief that a bookmark file is >only an "internal configuration file", rather than user data (presumably because >users do not typically edit it directly). His contention is that backing up the >file would annoy users by littering their filesystems. > >If that was the rationale for the 2005 change then it was misguided, IMO. > >A bookmark file is not just an internal config file. It contains user data that >can be valuable (to users). Among other things, it can contain metadata (e.g. >annotations) about other files. It has some things in common with Org mode for >keeping track of positions and other relations among documents. > >Users can make mistakes that lead to losing individual bookmarks that they might >really want to keep, or even to losing all bookmarks. > >In the other direction, it is very easy to load a second bookmark file into your >main bookmark file and save the result without necessarily meaning to. To get >back what you had (by deleting the additions or replacing the replacements) is >laborious and error prone, unless you have a backup copy. > >For such reasons, some users might want to have automatic backup for their >bookmarks. I agree that backup should be optional and up to the user, of >course. >> The status quo does seem a bug. There are two fixes: make >> backups work again, or deprecate `bookmark-version-control' >> and don't claim that the bookmark data file can have automatic backups. >> >> (In the meantime, Drew's suggestion in #12503 that `print-circle' be >> bound to `t' seems right to me -- I'm trying to get outstanding >> bookmark.el bugs fixed in time for the feature freeze on Oct. >> 1 and that should be one of the fixes. If so, then one of the reasons >> for being able to back up the bookmarks data file will go away anyway.) > >Thank you for that, in advance. > >There are however plenty of other ways a user can lose a bookmark file that took >a long time to construct. To me, we should not only provide automatic backup >but turn it on by default. > >(Would I apply the same arguments to some other "internal config files"? >Dunno/depends. Maybe desktop files. A lot depends on how important the given >"config" might be to a user and how long it takes to reconstruct it from >scratch. In any case, I don't buy the blanket argument that dot files or >"internal config files" are necessarily things that a user does not want backed >up.) > >--- > >I would in any case like to know an answer to my question above about creating >the first backup. > >I also have a question about the idiom to use that would make a code change >analogous to the write-region --> write-file change discussed, but for >(write-region (point-min) (point-max 'APPEND), i.e., for appending the buffer >content to a file. > >It's not clear to me what the best way would be to replace that code with code >that will not only append and write but also back up (if backing up is enabled). >I can code something up by appending the text to a buffer and then calling >`save-buffer' etc., but I wonder if there isn't some standard, simple way to get >this effect. > >Thx - Drew From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 27 12:00:56 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Sep 2012 16:00:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59083 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THGWF-0007au-QM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:00:56 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:20288) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THGWC-0007am-Sx for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:00:54 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8RG0goJ030970 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:00:43 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8RG0fj1015525 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:00:42 GMT Received: from abhmt118.oracle.com (abhmt118.oracle.com [141.146.116.70]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8RG0eiK015150; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:00:40 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.248) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 09:00:40 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Karl Fogel'" References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org><873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org><87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87obkreabd.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 09:00:39 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87obkreabd.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Thread-Index: Ac2cx5lr1zkc81KbR0mcknN45zRL/gAANd0A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > >> * Also change the default value of > >> `bookmark-version-control' to be `nil' instead of > >> `nospecial', so that backups of the bookmark data > >> file are no longer on by default (unless there are > >> already backup files present). > > > > But how does that help a user turn backup on in the first > > place? Not a rhetorical question - I really don't know. > > How should a user create the first backup file? > > > > What would the doc suggest to the user for that? Copy the > > file to one with a `~' suffix (error prone)? Visit the > > bookmark file, type SPC then DEL, then `C-x C-s' (error prone)? > > > > What is an easy, sure way for a user who has never backed up > > a file (one that is not typically visited interactively) to > > create a backup? > > Set `bookmark-version-control' to `t', of course. OK, I thought of that, but that seems like a strange thing for the doc to suggest: customize it to `t', save your bookmark file, then re/un-customize it back to the default, `nil'. Is that really the best recommendation? I have no special problem with it, but somehow I was expecting something else. Whatever the recommended procedure is, I think the doc (for this and `version-control') should suggest it to users. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 27 13:57:37 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Sep 2012 17:57:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59156 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THILB-00023h-Lm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:57:37 -0400 Received: from mail-ie0-f172.google.com ([209.85.223.172]:40757) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THIL9-00023a-QE for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:57:36 -0400 Received: by iec9 with SMTP id 9so5296766iec.3 for <12507@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:57:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=agToEu2pmpko/9Atk8FoJUsyTfkGoGHtr98TCjkxhZQ=; b=kTa66ked8ZFzP3EHYN7C+y9Wznt/48xh2aDgE3AB+0jGPE6tizFtyhsuOZuDZiW7Ll Bu0I9S7NwN0+3OJtVEZpvgzlMPQ2MF5CBSGPyIlsJA+8CoP6usp8wmPw6c9KbO2dUjrw vFNsSigsIS5bZBssoeBiht+ULuFASSO6BvY7CzKznyWREXbuJLIeJBVALLlPKfVf6Ws0 VkE7LInJgibt6glGeAwCZ8f0H1EC2DaK5y3u1qiBxgdZMGt8o5K5VPVRSktyAbj3PRn4 /q3HB0BjVLIXjcqXQn3fabRYjhkS1pEslb6jxpkFi5NGkRT90vKaCSlj1SvV7NGm0xPp l3HQ== Received: by 10.43.45.200 with SMTP id ul8mr3616327icb.36.1348768650297; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from floss.red-bean.com (173-108-184-40.pools.spcsdns.net. [173.108.184.40]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fm8sm5797435igc.8.2012.09.27.10.57.22 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:57:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Karl Fogel To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87obkreabd.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:57:18 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Thu, 27 Sep 2012 09:00:39 -0700") Message-ID: <87vcezbb7l.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: Karl Fogel List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) "Drew Adams" writes: >> Set `bookmark-version-control' to `t', of course. > >OK, I thought of that, but that seems like a strange thing for the doc to >suggest: customize it to `t', save your bookmark file, then re/un-customize it >back to the default, `nil'. Sorry? I'm maybe not understanding your question. If a user wants numbered backups of their bookmark data file, then they would set (customize) `bookmark-version-control' to `t'. If they don't, then it's nil. That is: they can leave it as the default (which would be nil in my proposal) or if they really want to be certain, I suppose they could explicitly customize it to nil. >Is that really the best recommendation? I have no special problem with >it, but somehow I was expecting something else. Can you describe what you were expecting? Controlling numbered backups of the bookmark data file is the whole reason the variable exists in the first place, so users should expect that if they want to control that behavior, this variable is the place to look. (Of course it should be documented; my point is just that I can't imagine what *other* mechanism would control this, since the only reason the current mechanism exists is ... to control exactly this.) -K From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 27 14:33:01 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Sep 2012 18:33:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59173 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THItR-0002sc-2i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:33:01 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:48088) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THItP-0002sV-Rf for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:33:00 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8RIWpcx014339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:32:53 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8RIWoIm000508 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:32:51 GMT Received: from abhmt102.oracle.com (abhmt102.oracle.com [141.146.116.54]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8RIWoKm008095; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:32:50 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.248) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:32:49 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Karl Fogel'" References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org><873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org><87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com><87obkreabd.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> <87vcezbb7l.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:32:49 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87vcezbb7l.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Thread-Index: Ac2c2ZCDK50kohN4TiOYjzecicxbRQAAc0SA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Chong Yidong' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > >> Set `bookmark-version-control' to `t', of course. > > > > OK, I thought of that, but that seems like a strange thing > > for the doc to suggest: customize it to `t', save your bookmark > > file, then re/un-customize it back to the default, `nil'. > > Sorry? I'm maybe not understanding your question. My bad. Please ignore the question. The values essentially come from `version-control', where what's being decided is for all files. Since this is only for the bookmark file there is not a big need for offering both `nil' and `never' values. I think that is what confused me somehow. The only real choices for the bookmark file are using numbered or unnumbered backups, and whether to let `version-control' decide that: i.e., values `t', `never', and `nospecial'. `nil' (vs `t') has meaning here only if you somehow already had a numbered backup for the bookmark file. `nil' makes sense for `version-control', however, because that option governs multiple files. If the value here is `nospecial' and the `version-control' value is `nil', then you get the same result as `never' for the bookmark file, unless you previously customized `b-v-c' to `t'. I think that's the case that I was finding confusing. I was wondering how, in that case, a user might have created a numbered backup in the first place. It's not important. Sorry for the noise. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 27 14:37:16 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Sep 2012 18:37:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59177 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THIxW-00030H-8O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:37:15 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:47565) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THIxT-000304-KW for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:37:12 -0400 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8RIb3hk010431 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:37:04 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8RIb3eJ015343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:37:03 GMT Received: from abhmt119.oracle.com (abhmt119.oracle.com [141.146.116.71]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8RIb3we000836; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:37:03 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.248) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:37:03 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Thierry Volpiatto'" , <12507@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org><873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org><87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com> Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:37:02 -0700 Message-ID: <9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com> Thread-Index: Ac2ccmlFIbZCtl/lS7WsTo5OaXoZSAAYAaQA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > >> ;; Don't use write-file; we don't want this buffer to visit it. > > > > After write-file, the buffer is marked as visiting that file, which > > affects the behavior of C-x C-f and a lot more (e.g. asks the user > > for confirmation if the file was modified by some other process, ...). > > What about improving write-region to use backup when needed? > Possibly writing a new write-region-something function that handle > backup, or a write-file-noselect function. +1 And please let us know how best to accomplish that (in the doc perhaps, but also in this thread). It's not clear to me how to make a backup copy of a file without visiting that file in some buffer, however temporarily. For example, I can imagine this as a way to append the region to a file and back it up: (write-region (point-min) (point-max) FILE 'append) (with-current-buffer (find-file-noselect FILE) (backup-buffer)) But IIUC `find-file-noselect' visits the buffer (and so "asks the user for confirmation if the file was modified by some other process"). So that's apparently not the way to go. What is? Leaving the question of visiting aside for the moment, what about `backup-buffer' here? Should it be `save-buffer' instead, so that the modes of FILE get updated properly? Should it be just `basic-save-buffer-1' instead of `save-buffer'? And should any such code take what Juri mentioned wrt vc into account? If so, how? It's not clear to me how best to handle this write-stuff-to-a-file-and-back-it-up-when-appropriate, but I (and perhaps others) would like to learn. I haven't found the answer by looking at the manuals or perusing the source code. Can you help? Thx. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 27 17:16:31 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Sep 2012 21:16:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59361 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THLRf-0006d3-4d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:16:31 -0400 Received: from mail-we0-f172.google.com ([74.125.82.172]:59996) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THLRc-0006cv-Qz for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:16:29 -0400 Received: by weyu46 with SMTP id u46so921708wey.3 for <12507@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:16:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:organization:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=cWI6bKmH4flCnJjMttIZF4XV563rZAIrhWiao4Oa7vM=; b=z4GifvYMk9fkVZu0Fy3oeCauNx8+HUXNP00i48P0CqIzCc/oMdDyMHz/RHJKZcxT+1 pOjHrbccq5cjpjAo+fxoxUQh1kuHnfLeRtbU7hwi8I05tRWGVyQeilXq12FEhOzqhzep BiBdT7HY9PLGYDRe6UxmGKU0IoquiwclvezLK52m6Qon0JGJBVDjPFrGgDZlEdbMhdjZ qO/ppZWGAUEfJqbnHLbscIq3N8jZebxGBM1Y1zoOH3rqiGYtaD2A7jhgb22kudWVyNAZ eq4DqGub/nM/G0EXljd96IGqfmIIKLiEZJ+gCwWNII4KDuJwWbFLiJRoNaEX0l49qJa5 LVmQ== Received: by 10.216.144.92 with SMTP id m70mr2197787wej.222.1348780582202; Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dell-14z (lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net. [78.243.104.167]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bj3sm12809938wib.0.2012.09.27.14.16.20 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:16:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Thierry Volpiatto To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Organization: Emacs Helm References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com> <9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 23:16:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: <9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:37:02 -0700") Message-ID: <87obkrkvz7.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) "Drew Adams" writes: >> >> ;; Don't use write-file; we don't want this buffer to visit it. >> > >> > After write-file, the buffer is marked as visiting that file, which >> > affects the behavior of C-x C-f and a lot more (e.g. asks the user >> > for confirmation if the file was modified by some other process, ...). >> >> What about improving write-region to use backup when needed? >> Possibly writing a new write-region-something function that handle >> backup, or a write-file-noselect function. > > +1 > > And please let us know how best to accomplish that (in the doc perhaps, but also > in this thread). > > It's not clear to me how to make a backup copy of a file without visiting that > file in some buffer, however temporarily. > > For example, I can imagine this as a way to append the region to a file and back > it up: > > (write-region (point-min) (point-max) FILE 'append) > (with-current-buffer (find-file-noselect FILE) (backup-buffer)) > > But IIUC `find-file-noselect' visits the buffer (and so "asks the user for > confirmation if the file was modified by some other process"). So that's > apparently not the way to go. What is? > > Leaving the question of visiting aside for the moment, what about > `backup-buffer' here? Should it be `save-buffer' instead, so that the modes of > FILE get updated properly? Should it be just `basic-save-buffer-1' instead of > `save-buffer'? > > And should any such code take what Juri mentioned wrt vc into account? If so, > how? > > It's not clear to me how best to handle this > write-stuff-to-a-file-and-back-it-up-when-appropriate, but I (and perhaps > others) would like to learn. I haven't found the answer by looking at the > manuals or perusing the source code. Can you help? Will try to look better to this tomorrow if I find time, just for `bookmark-write-file', what about something like this? diff --git a/lisp/bookmark.el b/lisp/bookmark.el --- a/lisp/bookmark.el +++ b/lisp/bookmark.el @@ -1355,7 +1355,7 @@ (defun bookmark-write-file (file) "Write `bookmark-alist' to FILE." (bookmark-maybe-message "Saving bookmarks to file %s..." file) - (with-current-buffer (get-buffer-create " *Bookmarks*") + (with-current-buffer (find-file-noselect file) (goto-char (point-min)) (delete-region (point-min) (point-max)) (let ((print-length nil) @@ -1374,7 +1374,7 @@ ((eq 'nospecial bookmark-version-control) version-control) (t t)))) (condition-case nil - (write-region (point-min) (point-max) file) + (save-buffer) (file-error (message "Can't write %s" file))) (kill-buffer (current-buffer)) (bookmark-maybe-message -- Thierry Get my Gnupg key: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 28 05:04:56 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Sep 2012 09:04:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59778 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THWVE-0007sb-87 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 05:04:56 -0400 Received: from mail-we0-f172.google.com ([74.125.82.172]:39261) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THWVA-0007sQ-7M for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 05:04:53 -0400 Received: by weyu46 with SMTP id u46so1234524wey.3 for <12507@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:04:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:organization:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=MRv9XGg3T4YxCEXr7Ldk/YJdof84QR+rLw4ipWJJBFI=; b=F05yos5iTMMnWLioV3ZtzMLWgABVIIUU6iynwez0EZ1ZklKNc/j8z1Qwsws8527NYB s0IVURAqejZz50KrqYidnlzziyoCzf5E0cSaTKjn+HKrdubc7xRKS3ADnht4qjxVyl2I 6WAbjeSo7u5letYraLsTwYxUBR1ZrMZVxkoeXrcDctVk80hI+oVresGg/8wkQAExdjt9 TdGIFtNYXHWAEHvn9p/Es8PuRm1glkJCWdR7q+J6eqMaEtU4MqgwZcfHnxJxTsKysqct mXGwPqz45I39P3riYYErv1mS9JaQkbAU2GPsEINQqy/1xOhore+Eyvx7fnYyqb2zUTog DPxQ== Received: by 10.180.80.134 with SMTP id r6mr2474145wix.1.1348823082507; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dell-14z (lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net. [78.243.104.167]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fb20sm18182102wid.1.2012.09.28.02.04.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:04:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Thierry Volpiatto To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Organization: Emacs Helm References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com> <9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 11:04:34 +0200 In-Reply-To: <9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:37:02 -0700") Message-ID: <87haqildr1.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) "Drew Adams" writes: >> >> ;; Don't use write-file; we don't want this buffer to visit it. >> > >> > After write-file, the buffer is marked as visiting that file, which >> > affects the behavior of C-x C-f and a lot more (e.g. asks the user >> > for confirmation if the file was modified by some other process, ...). >> >> What about improving write-region to use backup when needed? >> Possibly writing a new write-region-something function that handle >> backup, or a write-file-noselect function. > > +1 > > And please let us know how best to accomplish that (in the doc perhaps, but also > in this thread). > > It's not clear to me how to make a backup copy of a file without visiting that > file in some buffer, however temporarily. > > For example, I can imagine this as a way to append the region to a file and back > it up: > > (write-region (point-min) (point-max) FILE 'append) > (with-current-buffer (find-file-noselect FILE) (backup-buffer)) This is not efficient IMO, like the actual version of `bookmark-write-file': 1) create a new buffer named "*Bookmarks*". 2) erase buffer 3) write data to it. 4) write contents of this buffer to FILE. 5) save this FILE. instead: 1) open FILE buffer 2) erase buffer 3) write data to it 4) save buffer. > But IIUC `find-file-noselect' visits the buffer (and so "asks the user for > confirmation if the file was modified by some other process"). So that's > apparently not the way to go. What is? What is the problem for this? What if you open another emacs session, bookmark something in this session, (don't save and don't quit session) switch to the initial session, bookmark something there and save bookmarks? It is good if it ask you for confirmation at some point, no? > Leaving the question of visiting aside for the moment, what about > `backup-buffer' here? Should it be `save-buffer' instead, so that the modes of > FILE get updated properly? Should it be just `basic-save-buffer-1' instead of > `save-buffer'? `save-buffer' do all the job (saving and backing up), so why writing to buffer and then using `backup-buffer' > And should any such code take what Juri mentioned wrt vc into account? If so, > how? `save-buffer' handle that. > It's not clear to me how best to handle this > write-stuff-to-a-file-and-back-it-up-when-appropriate, but I (and perhaps > others) would like to learn. I haven't found the answer by looking at the > manuals or perusing the source code. Can you help? I think that doing like in the patch I sent is not too bad: (with-current-buffer (find-file-noselect file) write--data--here [...] (save-buffer)) No more is needed I think, but maybe I miss something? Also, the use of `bookmark-version-control' is questionable, why handling this file specially? If following that, we should have a special variable for .emacs-custom.el, desktop, history, etc... which is non--sense. If this variable is removed, the global value of version-control will be used and .emacs.bmk will be backed up like any other file, like it does (or should do because it is broken with write-region) with its default value 'nospecial. Note that with the patch I sent, it seems a little bit faster to save, but maybe I am wrong, need to verify. (we write one time the data and save instead of writing two time and save) -- Thierry Get my Gnupg key: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 28 16:01:11 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Sep 2012 20:01:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60931 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THgkH-0000hg-Fv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 16:01:10 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:51631) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THgkE-0000hW-Kr for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 16:01:08 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8SK0qXf008509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:00:53 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8SK0oAv003908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:00:51 GMT Received: from abhmt114.oracle.com (abhmt114.oracle.com [141.146.116.66]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8SK0nQa022432; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 15:00:49 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.184.33) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:00:49 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Thierry Volpiatto'" References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org><873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org><87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com><9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com> <87haqildr1.fsf@gmail.com> Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:00:45 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87haqildr1.fsf@gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Thread-Index: Ac2dWE7mj/kaNm7DTt+r2JFNmud6GwANQjLg X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' , 'Chong Yidong' , 'Stefan Monnier' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > > > What about improving write-region to use backup when needed? > > > Possibly writing a new write-region-something function that > > > handle backup, or a write-file-noselect function. > > > > +1 > > > > And please let us know how best to accomplish that (in the > > doc perhaps, but also in this thread). Anyone? > > It's not clear to me how to make a backup copy of a file > > without visiting that file in some buffer, however temporarily. Stefan? You were the one who pointed out why there was the change here to `write-region' from `write-file'. And you seemed to be suggesting that we should still avoid `write-file' for that reason. > > For example, I can imagine this as a way to append the > > region to a file and back it up: > > > > (write-region (point-min) (point-max) FILE 'append) > > (with-current-buffer (find-file-noselect FILE) (backup-buffer)) > > This is not efficient IMO, No, of course not. That's one reason I asked for a good way to do it. My question for the example here was for the APPEND case of `write-region', which has no equivalent wrt `write-file'. But I certainly agree that if we're going to visit the file anyway, then it is better to write to disk only once. For that I have no problem with (with-current-buffer (find-file-noselect FILE) ; erase if replacing, or leave in place if appending ; insert new (at end, if appending) (save-buffer)) > instead: 1) open FILE buffer 2) erase buffer > 3) write data to it 4) save buffer. Right. Sounds good to me. The question is open wrt visiting the file, however. > > But IIUC `find-file-noselect' visits the buffer (and so > > "asks the user for confirmation if the file was modified > > by some other process"). So that's apparently not the way > > to go. What is? > > What is the problem for this? I was quoting Stefan. He mentioned this problem as the reason for the 2005 change from the original `write-file' to the current `write-region'. His point was that we should avoid _visiting_ the file, for the reasons he gave. My question is how to create a backup if you do not visit the file. > What if you open another emacs session, bookmark something in this > session, (don't save and don't quit session) switch to the initial > session, bookmark something there and save bookmarks? > It is good if it ask you for confirmation at some point, no? > > > Leaving the question of visiting aside for the moment, what about > > `backup-buffer' here? Should it be `save-buffer' instead, > > so that the modes of FILE get updated properly? Should it be just > > `basic-save-buffer-1' instead of `save-buffer'? > > `save-buffer' do all the job (saving and backing up), so why > writing to buffer and then using `backup-buffer' > > > And should any such code take what Juri mentioned wrt vc > > into account? If so, how? > > `save-buffer' handle that. `save-buffer' means visiting the file first. As do all of the other, more partial, code combinations that might back up (`backup-buffer' etc.), AFAICT. > > It's not clear to me how best to handle this > > write-stuff-to-a-file-and-back-it-up-when-appropriate, but > > I (and perhaps others) would like to learn. I haven't found > > the answer by looking at the manuals or perusing the source > > code. Can you help? > > I think that doing like in the patch I sent is not too bad: > (with-current-buffer (find-file-noselect file) > write--data--here[...] (save-buffer)) > > No more is needed I think, but maybe I miss something? You are missing Stefan's point about not visiting the file. > Also, the use of `bookmark-version-control' is questionable, why > handling this file specially? If following that, we should have > a special variable for .emacs-custom.el, > desktop, history, etc... which is non--sense. No, it's not nonsense. Where I agree with you is that there can also be other places, besides bookmarking, where you might want what `version-control' does only in a blanket way to be done differently for specific files. That was the aim, I assume, behind creating `bookmark-version-control' in the first place. It might be better to have a more general or central way to specify this, rather than having additional user options for different files or libraries. (In Bookmark+, `bookmark-version-control' governs not only the bookmark file but also two other bookmarking files: Bmenu state and user-generated command definitions.) One approach might be to generalize (or particularize, depending on your point of view) `version-control', so that users can use it to also specify individual behaviors for specific files or file-name regexp matches. We could either modify `version-control' itself to get that effect or add a new option like this to do it: (defcustom version-control-overrides () "Control the use of version numbers for backing up specific files. Each entry is of the form (REGEXP-OR-VARIABLE . VALUE), where: REGEXP-OR-VARIABLE is a regexp matching file names or the name of a file name-valued variable. VALUE has the same meaning as the value of option `version-control, but affects only the files whose names match REGEXP." :type '(repeat (cons :tag "File & when" (choice (regexp :tag "File-name regexp") (variable :tag "File-name variable")) (choice (const :tag "Never" never) (const :tag "If existing" nil) (other :tag "Always" t)))) :group 'backup :group 'vc) The latter sounds better to me. Then, to have specific control for your bookmark file you would just add an entry like this: (bookmark-file . t). (BTW, bug #12533 concerns the incorrect behavior of Customize for such a defcustom.) > If this variable is removed, the global value of > version-control will be used and .emacs.bmk will be backed > up like any other file, But that might not be what you want. That's the point, presumably, of giving you specific control for your bookmark file. But I would be OK with removing variable `bookmark-version-control' if a more general variable such as `version-control-overrides' were added. > like it does (or should do because it is broken with > write-region) with its default value 'nospecial. > > Note that with the patch I sent, it seems a little bit faster to save, > but maybe I am wrong, need to verify. (we write one time the data and > save instead of writing two time and save) See above. Of course it is faster to write to disk only once. The question about visiting the file is still open, though. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 29 03:42:39 2012 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2012 07:42:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33089 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THrh8-0000YY-TH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 03:42:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36239) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THrh6-0000YR-N3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 03:42:37 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1THrgr-0003CJ-Tn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 03:42:22 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:36200) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1THrgr-0003C3-Qo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 03:42:21 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:40486) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1THrgq-0000Sy-Vv for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 03:42:21 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1THrgq-00038u-5o for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 03:42:20 -0400 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:45285) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1THrgq-00037x-0G for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 03:42:20 -0400 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1THrgr-0005Mm-RV for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:42:21 +0200 Received: from lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net ([78.243.104.167]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:42:21 +0200 Received: from thierry.volpiatto by lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:42:21 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Thierry Volpiatto Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:42:08 +0200 Organization: Emacs Helm Lines: 17 Message-ID: <877grduvfz.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com> <9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com> <87haqildr1.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:/+W8JKDYnCuWH8RqcX7A00I3kxo= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 208.118.235.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) "Drew Adams" writes: > See above. Of course it is faster to write to disk only once. The question > about visiting the file is still open, though. I am using now the patch I sent here yesterday and it works really good, faster and do backups (numered) as expected. Hope it will be applied here in emacs because it DTRT. I don't understand what is the problem with "visiting the file". See in precedent post why it is not bad visiting the file. In the special case of bookmark-write-file, it is really not the problem. -- Thierry Get my Gnupg key: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 29 10:36:37 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2012 14:36:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33760 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THy9l-0003NE-1e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:36:37 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:41571) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THy9i-0003N6-Ng for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:36:35 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8TEaHX7029865 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:36:18 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8TEaGoU003232 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:36:17 GMT Received: from abhmt116.oracle.com (abhmt116.oracle.com [141.146.116.68]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8TEaGlt017360; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:36:16 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/71.202.147.44) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:36:16 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Thierry Volpiatto'" , <12507@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org><873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org><87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com><9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com><87haqildr1.fsf@gmail.com> <877grduvfz.fsf@gmail.com> Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:36:09 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <877grduvfz.fsf@gmail.com> Thread-Index: Ac2eFghWhyVcdjjISHCim3AHalxMPQANtSIA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > > The question about visiting the file is still open, though. > > I am using now the patch I sent here yesterday and it works > really good, faster and do backups (numered) as expected. > Hope it will be applied here in emacs because it DTRT. > > I don't understand what is the problem with "visiting the file". > See in precedent post why it is not bad visiting the file. > In the special case of bookmark-write-file, it is really not the > problem. Your question is for Stefan. Your patch is equivalent to the change I proposed originally: just replace `write-region' with `write-file'. Of course it works. It is what I have been using, with no problem. But it has the other effects that Stefan mentioned, since the file is visited. He seems to be objecting to that. But it's not too clear - perhaps he was just relating why the change from `write-file' was made, without expressing any opinion. And we have not heard anything from him in reply to my statement that there seems to be no way to make a backup without also visiting the file. If that guess is correct then the choices would seem to be: 1. Provide for optional backups, visiting the file systematically. 2. Do not provide for optional backups, and never visit the file. 3. Provide for optional backups, but if the user chooses not to back up, then do not visit the file. With #3, the user would pay the price that Stefan mentions for visiting the file only when s?he chooses backup. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 29 11:13:12 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2012 15:13:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33764 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THyj9-0004Cs-Di for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 11:13:12 -0400 Received: from mail-wi0-f180.google.com ([209.85.212.180]:36682) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THyj6-0004Ci-62 for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 11:13:09 -0400 Received: by wibhm4 with SMTP id hm4so738727wib.15 for <12507@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 08:12:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:organization:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=CsaR6zx1OiMC51KytvnIlVOw7K/z/DjmoNWPX9ACp6o=; b=jSuRIeGcfjDYJyojDa58Bgpn1nv0wbxgbg6WX07jNecyvXcFgx6BzezK6UH5Wz4XKB XYWugC+sbPi2rW3DWclrjL+r72BwyHBltvri8a9jGATfxTTbaxqzAbSTQ6IFEFSDF/g4 o11/nxYbWOsfXPv0loZ2+kz8fVQ+9tz++U/ytkb4lN4Ekpitpu9TGQVcEPdHjT073Pca Tfg94aQVhbTxdS8iC3Q/FlLYSTMvJIg7fPsUreUZurqShploR3KblNuUxBtMpX9PP5Me ddK8EMEAARq+vj++PyA5xTGwWofxsXkvwq55UdV5tcLlb09utI3sxX6G1Qd5g2Zf2sXY 6ntg== Received: by 10.216.26.138 with SMTP id c10mr5547480wea.76.1348931571690; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 08:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dell-14z (lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net. [78.243.104.167]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w7sm5557754wiz.0.2012.09.29.08.12.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 29 Sep 2012 08:12:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Thierry Volpiatto To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Organization: Emacs Helm References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com> <9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com> <87haqildr1.fsf@gmail.com> <877grduvfz.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 17:12:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:36:09 -0700") Message-ID: <87ehlkoobb.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) "Drew Adams" writes: >> > The question about visiting the file is still open, though. >> >> I am using now the patch I sent here yesterday and it works >> really good, faster and do backups (numered) as expected. >> Hope it will be applied here in emacs because it DTRT. >> >> I don't understand what is the problem with "visiting the file". >> See in precedent post why it is not bad visiting the file. >> In the special case of bookmark-write-file, it is really not the >> problem. > > Your question is for Stefan. > > Your patch is equivalent to the change I proposed originally: just replace > `write-region' with `write-file'. No, this is ineficient too, you write twice the same data. The important thing is writing directly to the buffer of file. For the backup thing, yes it is similar, but with unneeded steps, going straight to save-buffer is better and faster IMO (of course if you have started writing data in the file buffer) But the worst thing is the actual version with write-region: Slow and backup broken. -- Thierry Get my Gnupg key: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 29 11:52:05 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2012 15:52:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33772 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THzKm-00053q-T3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 11:52:05 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:20921) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THzKk-00053Z-Fk for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 11:52:03 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8TFphv8017933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 29 Sep 2012 15:51:44 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8TFphD1012973 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 29 Sep 2012 15:51:43 GMT Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8TFpgl4029366; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:51:42 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/71.202.147.44) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 08:51:42 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Thierry Volpiatto'" References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org><873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org><87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com><9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com><87haqildr1.fsf@gmail.com><877grduvfz.fsf@gmail.com> <87ehlkoobb.fsf@gmail.com> Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 08:51:34 -0700 Message-ID: <29382156B26B45EE84512961BC10CB44@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87ehlkoobb.fsf@gmail.com> Thread-Index: Ac2eVOYwUIqsqTJzToaPjq5ga5wftgAAY/mQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' , 'Stefan Monnier' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > >> > The question about visiting the file is still open, though. > >> > >> I am using now the patch I sent here yesterday and it works > >> really good, faster and do backups (numered) as expected. > >> Hope it will be applied here in emacs because it DTRT. > >> > >> I don't understand what is the problem with "visiting the > >> file". See in precedent post why it is not bad visiting the > >> file. In the special case of bookmark-write-file, it is > >> really not the problem. > > > > Your question is for Stefan. Your patch is equivalent to > > the change I proposed originally: just replace > > `write-region' with `write-file'. > > No, this is ineficient too, you write twice the same data. How so? What am I missing? What part of `write-file' writes the same data twice? All I see in the `write-file' definition, in terms of writing, is a call to `save-buffer'. > The important thing is writing directly to the buffer of file. > For the backup thing, yes it is similar, but with unneeded steps, Steps that you seem to claim constitute an additional disk write. I don't see that. What part of `write-file' performs an extra disk write? The only "extra" steps I see in `write-file' are setting the visited file name, setting the buffer status to modified, checking that the file is `file-writable-p', and setting `buffer-read-only' to nil. And running `vc-find-file-hook'. You are, I think, side-tracking the issue a bit. The question to be decided is whether to allow backups. It is not whether to use `write-file', `save-buffer', `basic-save-buffer', or something else. I don't really care exactly how it's done. I have confidence it will be done efficiently if it is decided to be done. > going straight to save-buffer is better and faster IMO (of > course if you have started writing data in the file buffer) > > But the worst thing is the actual version with write-region: > Slow and backup broken. I don't see that the current version is slow, either. But it certainly does not provide for backing up. That is the question to be decided. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 29 12:21:22 2012 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2012 16:21:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33781 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THzn8-0005hW-C7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:21:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46622) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1THzn6-0005hP-5h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:21:21 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1THzmp-0003Po-DG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:21:04 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:47608) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1THzmp-0003Pk-Ak for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:21:03 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:58459) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1THzmo-0006AB-Cr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:21:03 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1THzmn-0003PR-Hf for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:21:02 -0400 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:60898) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1THzmn-0003PL-BB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:21:01 -0400 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1THzmq-0003IY-3T for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:21:04 +0200 Received: from lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net ([78.243.104.167]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:21:04 +0200 Received: from thierry.volpiatto by lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:21:04 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Thierry Volpiatto Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:20:49 +0200 Organization: Emacs Helm Lines: 13 Message-ID: <877grcol5q.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com> <9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com> <87haqildr1.fsf@gmail.com> <877grduvfz.fsf@gmail.com> <87ehlkoobb.fsf@gmail.com> <29382156B26B45EE84512961BC10CB44@us.oracle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:1/koe/0JCQMs/4Qd4EnyCZz7w6c= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 208.118.235.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) "Drew Adams" writes: > How so? What am I missing? What part of `write-file' writes the same data > twice? All I see in the `write-file' definition, in terms of writing, is a call > to `save-buffer'. What I want to say is, why writing to buffer "*Bookmarks*", renaming this buffer to the filename buffer, and then saving it? Just use find-file-noselect, write data and save. -- Thierry Get my Gnupg key: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 29 12:50:32 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2012 16:50:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33837 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TI0FL-0006QZ-Bz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:50:31 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:29613) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TI0FJ-0006QR-6e for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:50:29 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q8TGoAdO031116 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 29 Sep 2012 16:50:10 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8TGo9vA008921 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 29 Sep 2012 16:50:09 GMT Received: from abhmt110.oracle.com (abhmt110.oracle.com [141.146.116.62]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q8TGo7td018067; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 11:50:07 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/71.202.147.44) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:50:07 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Thierry Volpiatto'" , <12507@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org><873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org><87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com><9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com><87haqildr1.fsf@gmail.com><877grduvfz.fsf@gmail.com><87ehlkoobb.fsf@gmail.com><29382156B26B45EE84512961BC10CB44@us.oracle.com> <877grcol5q.fsf@gmail.com> Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:50:00 -0700 Message-ID: <6AE89E4E12C2423DA49CF53F19CF3E81@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <877grcol5q.fsf@gmail.com> Thread-Index: Ac2eXok5xsILJnIZThGuPx8mpvB+5AAAkkKQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.7 (-------) > What I want to say is, why writing to buffer "*Bookmarks*", renaming > this buffer to the filename buffer, and then saving it? > Just use find-file-noselect, write data and save. I see. You're talking only about the first arg of `with-current-buffer'. I thought you were talking about `write-file' vs `save-buffer' and claiming that there were two writes with the former. Yes, of course. There is no need to use a different buffer, *Bookmarks*, instead of the return value of `find-file-noselect'. I thought we had already covered that. There still might be a reason to use `write-file' instead of `save-buffer'. But as I say, what's important is to decide about whether to allow backing up (and visiting the file). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 29 12:58:11 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2012 16:58:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33842 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TI0Mj-0006av-I1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:58:11 -0400 Received: from mail-wi0-f174.google.com ([209.85.212.174]:39506) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TI0Mh-0006ao-5S for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 12:58:08 -0400 Received: by mail-wi0-f174.google.com with SMTP id hq7so815825wib.15 for <12507@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:57:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:organization:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=FKD7fBtaaiYP5o+EvIBs06hIsiED9TCIssA9nnhAvVc=; b=I0igd7vm0/Y+C8rkazCNVHb86RdXskh9rKCwS5xMbPfClveaJ6JEq7aSjJAmhEa6hp sz/NPUA72AhS+tm3m35Jqddt0ju5Yyb2YBm6zfpigSUI1YtJdDN2wS1ss1tcWsUIJZjc 0RZT9wb5qW+Fmjn+KVGj0+miK7uQmQNVth0KPeHZlFLZO7dc3LTHqlXyzF+oERF++gqr f0tQXIJo+jAzQziER1Eb42UIEZoF9gOrSGshA634uwNULoR5+GP5ppDTDo6GZPOnbQGn 54TwIpp9T7FozF72K5lNx8KeNQ5eitYJ5Z6dCDUNe9qdrbsbA/sPFXnNsQzll1bOXMyr zG8Q== Received: by 10.180.82.164 with SMTP id j4mr4427608wiy.18.1348937870177; Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dell-14z (lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net. [78.243.104.167]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cl8sm6005400wib.10.2012.09.29.09.57.48 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:57:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Thierry Volpiatto To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Organization: Emacs Helm References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87ipb031aj.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <87sja4t48j.fsf@gmail.com> <9D98A7802F07462887BCC67BE194243B@us.oracle.com> <87haqildr1.fsf@gmail.com> <877grduvfz.fsf@gmail.com> <87ehlkoobb.fsf@gmail.com> <29382156B26B45EE84512961BC10CB44@us.oracle.com> <877grcol5q.fsf@gmail.com> <6AE89E4E12C2423DA49CF53F19CF3E81@us.oracle.com> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:57:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: <6AE89E4E12C2423DA49CF53F19CF3E81@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:50:00 -0700") Message-ID: <873920ojg9.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) "Drew Adams" writes: >> What I want to say is, why writing to buffer "*Bookmarks*", renaming >> this buffer to the filename buffer, and then saving it? >> Just use find-file-noselect, write data and save. > > I see. You're talking only about the first arg of `with-current-buffer'. I > thought you were talking about `write-file' vs `save-buffer' and claiming that > there were two writes with the former. > > Yes, of course. There is no need to use a different buffer, *Bookmarks*, > instead of the return value of `find-file-noselect'. I thought we had already > covered that. > > There still might be a reason to use `write-file' instead of `save-buffer'. But > as I say, what's important is to decide about whether to allow backing up (and > visiting the file). Agree. -- Thierry Get my Gnupg key: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Sep 30 23:38:44 2012 Received: (at 12507-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2012 03:38:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35312 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TIWqC-0000kQ-4E for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 23:38:44 -0400 Received: from mail-ie0-f172.google.com ([209.85.223.172]:47871) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TIWq9-0000kJ-Ps for 12507-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 23:38:42 -0400 Received: by iec9 with SMTP id 9so11827336iec.3 for <12507-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 20:38:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:subject:reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type; bh=w9ifs203Chh6byZ85IJHs/mSV2+d+UkBBh4jMaALzRM=; b=DMRPf4LoiCJFejM81zu0YYHaaxy2XExVqZ3R0tOB0gOyC0qD/rnxZN6W1qlUp82nHC Fj3xqatXawu1BAoVhhPARFG+901jXJj9/VXruEYb5zDJbZzwf9fbwnAOJY7HMpx7QY9d rsj9Z+tSkKZbHaoYEIBj8utIng1Nppz8UReG94DeQpUbsDJVvzCK/2C6la74l8FZmzi3 qCaL2BBv0EPYU2KcNkhnjTYs6IvPcfILyGykmJm4EndoW+D6JpWZS0zTJWUhvbJptoaw HNe8vSpt4NqqeemIm1t2Q134anlxJOhLfzj4Zt10RQLwAIG0zONVBgtybkq3JpXsD7vK STKQ== Received: by 10.50.220.129 with SMTP id pw1mr4522708igc.47.1349062696822; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 20:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from floss.red-bean.com (173-109-178-220.pools.spcsdns.net. [173.109.178.220]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ce10sm7453692igb.1.2012.09.30.20.38.14 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 30 Sep 2012 20:38:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Karl Fogel To: 12507-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: Option `(bookmark-)version-control': Use :tag so doc string matches menu Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 22:38:12 -0500 Message-ID: <87y5jqhnff.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: Karl Fogel List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Fixed (see below), but please review. I don't fully understand the whole customization system because I never use it myself (I just read doc strings and set variables directly in Elisp), so I don't quite get what `other' mean if used instead of `const', and I didn't fully understand the last paragraph of the original bug report. I looked in the Info pages, but they didn't clarify much about this. -Karl Revision info: revno: 110305 revision-id: kfogel@red-bean.com-20121001033206-5eja4ztyhs1sjm7q parent: cyd@gnu.org-20121001031702-2mei04wuzv2pk1e7 committer: Karl Fogel branch nick: trunk timestamp: Sun 2012-09-30 22:32:06 -0500 message: * lisp/bookmark.el (bookmark-version-control): Give tags in the :type choices (Bug#12309), and improve doc string. Diff: === modified file 'lisp/ChangeLog' --- lisp/ChangeLog 2012-10-01 02:07:14 +0000 +++ lisp/ChangeLog 2012-10-01 03:31:41 +0000 @@ -1,3 +1,8 @@ +2012-10-01 Karl Fogel + + * bookmark.el (bookmark-version-control): Give tags in the + :type choices (Bug#12309), and improve doc string. + 2012-10-01 Paul Eggert Revert the FOLLOW-SYMLINKS change for file-attributes. === modified file 'lisp/bookmark.el' --- lisp/bookmark.el 2012-09-25 04:13:02 +0000 +++ lisp/bookmark.el 2012-10-01 03:32:18 +0000 @@ -99,12 +99,14 @@ (defcustom bookmark-version-control 'nospecial "Whether or not to make numbered backups of the bookmark file. -It can have four values: t, nil, `never', and `nospecial'. +It can have four values: t, nil, `never', or `nospecial'. The first three have the same meaning that they do for the -variable `version-control', and the final value `nospecial' means just -use the value of `version-control'." - :type '(choice (const nil) (const never) (const nospecial) - (other t)) +variable `version-control'; the value `nospecial' (the default) means +just use the value of `version-control'." + :type '(choice (const :tag "If existing" nil) + (const :tag "Never" never) + (const :tag "Use the value of `version-control'" nospecial) + (const :tag "Always" t)) :group 'bookmark) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 01 00:06:42 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2012 04:06:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35355 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TIXHG-0001TX-9I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 00:06:42 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:22463) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TIXHE-0001TN-5f; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 00:06:41 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q9146EHC009589 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 1 Oct 2012 04:06:14 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q9146D3H021387 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Oct 2012 04:06:13 GMT Received: from abhmt108.oracle.com (abhmt108.oracle.com [141.146.116.60]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q9146DHx003441; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 23:06:13 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.219.231) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:06:12 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Karl Fogel'" , <12309@debbugs.gnu.org>, <12507@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <87y5jqhnff.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Subject: RE: bug#12507: Option `(bookmark-)version-control': Use :tag so docstring matches menu Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:06:00 -0700 Message-ID: <63E9C48B6DE546C0A47EA79246A64BD1@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87y5jqhnff.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Thread-Index: Ac2fhkQQN3azpVovR7u3RU/ags41RwAAPhXw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) Ouch! You fixed bug #12309, Karl (thanks; looks good). But you closed bug #12507 instead. Please reopen #12507 and correct the subject lines etc. of the mails if needed, so that things are put right again. It is #12309 that should be closed, not @12507. To answer your questions: `other' in a `choice' just means any value other than the other choices listed. If the user picks the `other' choice interactively then the value given (`t' here) is used. E.g., if you set the variable to 99999 (outside of Customize) then it will act just like a value of `t'. The last sentence of the original report just meant to please at least use a :tag for the `other' choice. It is the one where a :tag is most important for clarity. But you've added :tag for each of them, which is even better. Thx - Drew P.S. FWIW, here is what I've been using for this defcustom. It's almost the same as what you have. "Whether to make numbered backups of your bookmarking files. The option can have value `nospecial', `t', `nil', or `never' . Value `nospecial' means to use the `version-control' value. The others have the same meanings as for option `version-control'. Use value `t' if your bookmarks are important to you. Consider also using numeric backups. See also nodes `Backup Names' and `Backup Deletion' in the Emacs manual." :type '(choice :tag "When to make numbered backups" (const :tag "Use value of option `version-control'" nospecial) (const :tag "Never" never) (const :tag "If existing already" nil) (other :tag "Always" t)) > From: Karl Fogel Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 8:38 PM > To: 12507-done@debbugs.gnu.org > Subject: bug#12507: Option `(bookmark-)version-control': Use > :tag so docstring matches menu > > Fixed (see below), but please review. > > I don't fully understand the whole customization system > because I never > use it myself (I just read doc strings and set variables directly in > Elisp), so I don't quite get what `other' mean if used instead of > `const', and I didn't fully understand the last paragraph of the > original bug report. I looked in the Info pages, but they didn't > clarify much about this. > > -Karl > > Revision info: > > revno: 110305 > revision-id: kfogel@red-bean.com-20121001033206-5eja4ztyhs1sjm7q > parent: cyd@gnu.org-20121001031702-2mei04wuzv2pk1e7 > committer: Karl Fogel > branch nick: trunk > timestamp: Sun 2012-09-30 22:32:06 -0500 > message: > * lisp/bookmark.el (bookmark-version-control): Give tags in the > :type choices (Bug#12309), and improve doc string. > > Diff: > > === modified file 'lisp/ChangeLog' > --- lisp/ChangeLog 2012-10-01 02:07:14 +0000 > +++ lisp/ChangeLog 2012-10-01 03:31:41 +0000 > @@ -1,3 +1,8 @@ > +2012-10-01 Karl Fogel > + > + * bookmark.el (bookmark-version-control): Give tags in the > + :type choices (Bug#12309), and improve doc string. > + > 2012-10-01 Paul Eggert > > Revert the FOLLOW-SYMLINKS change for file-attributes. > > === modified file 'lisp/bookmark.el' > --- lisp/bookmark.el 2012-09-25 04:13:02 +0000 > +++ lisp/bookmark.el 2012-10-01 03:32:18 +0000 > @@ -99,12 +99,14 @@ > > (defcustom bookmark-version-control 'nospecial > "Whether or not to make numbered backups of the bookmark file. > -It can have four values: t, nil, `never', and `nospecial'. > +It can have four values: t, nil, `never', or `nospecial'. > The first three have the same meaning that they do for the > -variable `version-control', and the final value > `nospecial' means just > -use the value of `version-control'." > - :type '(choice (const nil) (const never) (const nospecial) > - (other t)) > +variable `version-control'; the value `nospecial' (the > default) means > +just use the value of `version-control'." > + :type '(choice (const :tag "If existing" nil) > + (const :tag "Never" never) > + (const :tag "Use the value of > `version-control'" nospecial) > + (const :tag "Always" t)) > :group 'bookmark) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 01 00:13:35 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2012 04:13:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35378 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TIXNu-0001dS-GK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 00:13:35 -0400 Received: from mail-ie0-f172.google.com ([209.85.223.172]:45609) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TIXNs-0001dM-Hu for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 00:13:33 -0400 Received: by iec9 with SMTP id 9so11866537iec.3 for <12507@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:13:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:subject:reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type; bh=PshET7IgxvRXXCHMefsoodqsHuSMwfTIks+BOrUkoDw=; b=Q0k8ZXCLtkRN8GZXAJexc/WfiAwf69AfbHZ3AXeS4MiePaQxdTYg/5/9JGDcUyEXe0 SswbFExd28ZalFlULg5Zrl7+9wO3htNW5GRX1t1Ry/Wp/oaUKn2XeEZRBgPvcYiTHXLn xZrK08F/wYMPOmYJvOx4LnhZv2/EOWI2Z2P5C0TjfR7NX4NrqWcMAb02iKwPtWEYu9hs 5UTr/26Z6S/udWrncUzdJq0yPCQ2uox/gnfsIolyEjcRb0wCHZtFCv2rxPXSD3K5DnMB G3tOe3RKowl9rrq8yuFoHwbaiZEy7rXSbQqvWrQlBSaavVYv155Uqj8mqbrm9j44Y+wy 8RFA== Received: by 10.50.15.132 with SMTP id x4mr4445289igc.58.1349064787657; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from floss.red-bean.com (173-109-178-220.pools.spcsdns.net. [173.109.178.220]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xm2sm6234675igb.3.2012.09.30.21.13.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:13:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Karl Fogel To: 12507@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Have I mentioned how much I hate Debbugs? Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 23:13:03 -0500 Message-ID: <87d312hltc.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: Karl Fogel List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) So, immediately after I mis-closed this report, I realized what happened and ever since then I've been trying to reopen it. First I emailed "12507-open@". Then I tried "12507-reopen@". Maybe those emails are stuck in the pipe somewhere, or maybe those weren't valid ways to issue the command to reopen. In any case, now I'm reduced to sending this mail and praying that it goes through, since unlike every other bug tracker created since 1852 debbugs does not have a way to manipulate bugs via the web browser. In any case: This bug is too complex to solve by the Oct. 1st freeze, sorry. Just reading & comprehending the conversation takes twenty minutes now. My preference would be to remove the `bookmark-version-control' variable entirely, since probably so few people use it and it's now a bug source. However, maybe it's important enough to keep, in which case we probably need to fix `write-region' to DTRT with backups, or at least have some kind of `write-region-make-backups' variable we can dynamically bind. I don't want to revert to using `write-file'. We switched *away* from `write-file' for a reason. Going back will probably mean a regression of some sort. -Karl From unknown Sat Jun 21 03:16:48 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 04:32:01 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 01 00:51:01 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2012 04:51:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35450 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TIXy8-0003OC-RZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 00:51:01 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:27828) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TIXy6-0003O3-PS for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 00:50:59 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q914oWrZ004054 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 1 Oct 2012 04:50:33 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q914oWEh007286 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Oct 2012 04:50:32 GMT Received: from abhmt118.oracle.com (abhmt118.oracle.com [141.146.116.70]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q914oWL9022498; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 23:50:32 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.219.231) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:50:31 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Karl Fogel'" , <12507@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <87d312hltc.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Subject: RE: bug#12507: Have I mentioned how much I hate Debbugs? Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:50:19 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87d312hltc.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Thread-Index: Ac2fiyfDwvEK8aSGS2u+Sw/dhOKc5QAAm8JQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > So, immediately after I mis-closed this report, I realized > what happened and ever since then I've been trying to reopen it. > > First I emailed "12507-open@". Then I tried "12507-reopen@". Maybe > those emails are stuck in the pipe somewhere, or maybe those weren't > valid ways to issue the command to reopen. I don't think those are valid ways. > In any case, now I'm reduced to sending this mail and praying that > it goes through, since unlike every other bug tracker created > since 1852 debbugs does not have a way to manipulate bugs via the > web browser. ;-) I just sent a reopen message, which looks like it worked. I too know little about Debbugs. For this, all you need to do is to send a message to 'control@debbugs.gnu.org' with this in the message body (without quotes): "reopen 12507". > In any case: > This bug is too complex to solve by the Oct. 1st freeze, sorry. It's not complex, IMO, but it definitely won't be fixed by Oct 1! I think we need to wait for Stefan to weigh in on the question, for one thing. > Just reading & comprehending the conversation takes twenty minutes > now. My preference would be to remove the `bookmark-version-control' > variable entirely, since probably so few people use it and it's now a > bug source. I disagree with that, but I can keep a local version if you decide to do that. What I would prefer is a general solution, along the lines I suggested (in my mail of 9/28): extend the general `version-control' to let users specify backup for particular files. I proposed adding an option like this, as one way to do that: (defcustom version-control-overrides () "Control the use of version numbers for backing up specific files. Each entry is of the form (REGEXP-OR-VARIABLE . VALUE), where: REGEXP-OR-VARIABLE is a regexp matching file names or the name of a file name-valued variable. VALUE has the same meaning as the value of option `version-control, but affects only the files whose names match REGEXP." :type '(repeat (cons :tag "File & when" (choice (regexp :tag "File-name regexp") (variable :tag "File-name variable")) (choice (const :tag "Never" never) (const :tag "If existing" nil) (other :tag "Always" t)))) :group 'backup :group 'vc) Then, to handle the file that is the value of variable `bookmark-file' you would just add an entry like this: (bookmark-file . t). > However, maybe it's important enough to keep, in which case > we probably need to fix `write-region' to DTRT with backups, > or at least have some kind of `write-region-make-backups' > variable we can dynamically bind. > > I don't want to revert to using `write-file'. We switched *away* from > `write-file' for a reason. Going back will probably mean a regression > of some sort. We could do what I suggested in my message of 9/29: d> 3. Provide for optional backups, but if the user chooses not d> to back up, then do not visit the file. d> d> With #3, the user would pay the price that Stefan mentions for d> visiting the file only when s?he chooses backup. I based that on my understanding (still asking the question though, since I'm not sure) that you cannot back up the file unless you visit it. Stefan's objection, and the reason we moved away from `write-file', is that a user might not want to visit the file, since that has some additional effects (e.g. asking for confirmation if some other process modified the file). But those effects are anyway desirable, IF you want to back up the file. So it seems to me that what we want is to either (a) visit the file and do `save-buffer' or `write-file or equivalent IF the option value says to back up the file, or (b) do what we do not IF NOT. In any case, it sounds like we have all agreed at least on the need of a way for a user to say whether or not s?he wants backups. `bookmark-version-control' does not do that - it controls only whether to use ordinary backups or numeric backups. So I think the first step is to add an option so that a user can express that choice. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 01 17:24:31 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2012 21:24:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36783 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TInTZ-00051Y-Ov for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 17:24:31 -0400 Received: from mail-ie0-f172.google.com ([209.85.223.172]:48220) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TInTX-00051R-Oo for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 17:24:28 -0400 Received: by iec9 with SMTP id 9so13977363iec.3 for <12507@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 14:23:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=d2oKj6UY87Xqu4hVWXzRD5o7OuUePMYIcLSHqRsW9ag=; b=ouuxt9fhai5RvC1xm65WRZ1r6YUjeaXLO/dRiYXfDo/TNIUJgfhoFXszC4SbuoP2AR K/WcGryUBIQrj26oyiwgzZOn6uJbfxkGjKOIh3Qka+rQ5z0fkDIWs58Ac9AyTX9L7jgk l4yhkRyZJK+fh+hzj9Pgfg3PNwkRuoYEONb6iKH7RipzQjFZWMQGbm4c/v0ZqtridMfJ Dg3G1nCtnsqFX/3NzYB+kk9oAcMOeBeEh+V+c1ivcV2whF5M13YsjTJwydyzRUZUylv4 hybAsSvihHRKHIG+C59xNHwpx49To5j4lY+JGy3mxVTcjuKNPuQwaWmgYAIwNkPJXVUV nz6Q== Received: by 10.50.158.201 with SMTP id ww9mr7186220igb.22.1349126638683; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 14:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kwarm.red-bean.com (74-92-190-113-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [74.92.190.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t4sm7398429igt.1.2012.10.01.14.23.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 01 Oct 2012 14:23:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Karl Fogel To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: Have I mentioned how much I hate Debbugs? References: <87d312hltc.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 16:23:55 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:50:19 -0700") Message-ID: <87k3v9dgyc.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list Reply-To: Karl Fogel List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) "Drew Adams" writes: >What I would prefer is a general solution, along the lines I suggested (in= my >mail of 9/28): extend the general `version-control' to let users specify b= ackup >for particular files. I proposed adding an option like this, as one way t= o do >that: > >(defcustom version-control-overrides () > "Control the use of version numbers for backing up specific files. >Each entry is of the form (REGEXP-OR-VARIABLE . VALUE), where: >REGEXP-OR-VARIABLE is a regexp matching file names or the name of a > file name-valued variable. >VALUE has the same meaning as the value of option `version-control, > but affects only the files whose names match REGEXP." > :type '(repeat (cons :tag "File & when" > (choice > (regexp :tag "File-name regexp") > (variable :tag "File-name variable")) > (choice > (const :tag "Never" never) > (const :tag "If existing" nil) > (other :tag "Always" t)))) > :group 'backup :group 'vc) > >Then, to handle the file that is the value of variable `bookmark-file' you= would >just add an entry like this: (bookmark-file . t). I like this general solution. >We could do what I suggested in my message of 9/29: > >d> 3. Provide for optional backups, but if the user chooses not >d> to back up, then do not visit the file. >d> >d> With #3, the user would pay the price that Stefan mentions for >d> visiting the file only when s?he chooses backup. > >I based that on my understanding (still asking the question though, since = I'm >not sure) that you cannot back up the file unless you visit it. Stefan's >objection, and the reason we moved away from `write-file', is that a user = might >not want to visit the file, since that has some additional effects (e.g. a= sking >for confirmation if some other process modified the file). One thing I'm confused by: Why does backing up a file have anything to do with visiting it? Backing up just means making a copy. There is no reason why visiting the file in a buffer is necessary for that (surely `copy-file' does not visit the file, for example). Yet in this discussion, the assumption is that to get backups, we have to also visit the file. >But those effects are anyway desirable, IF you want to back up the >file. So it seems to me that what we want is to either (a) visit the >file and do `save-buffer' or `write-file or equivalent IF the option >value says to back up the file, or (b) do what we do not IF NOT. Hmm, this feels like a workaround. Instead, let's get to the bottom of why backing up and visiting are linked at all. >In any case, it sounds like we have all agreed at least on the need of >a way for a user to say whether or not s?he wants backups. >`bookmark-version-control' does not do that - it controls only whether >to use ordinary backups or numeric backups. So I think the first step >is to add an option so that a user can express that choice. Yes, but... Is it worth it to have even `bookmark-version-control' at all? The number of people who need backups on this file must be small, since most users presumably do not edit it directly nor even know where it is. A more general solution might be `bookmark-before-save-hook'. The few people who want backups can DTRT in the hook, and bookmark's code wouldn't need to worry about this at all. =C2=ADK From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 01 18:01:45 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2012 22:01:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36828 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TIo3c-0005sR-SJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 18:01:45 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:22765) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TIo3Z-0005sI-Pc for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 18:01:43 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q91M1BKr023910 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 1 Oct 2012 22:01:12 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q91M19YO004390 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Oct 2012 22:01:10 GMT Received: from abhmt115.oracle.com (abhmt115.oracle.com [141.146.116.67]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q91M19lH013059; Mon, 1 Oct 2012 17:01:09 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.219.190) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 15:01:09 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Karl Fogel'" References: <87d312hltc.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> <87k3v9dgyc.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> Subject: RE: bug#12507: Have I mentioned how much I hate Debbugs? Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 15:00:54 -0700 Message-ID: <058D07630DCF42C18CA45AB3E07C0BF5@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87k3v9dgyc.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> Thread-Index: Ac2gGxKWDkSgICRGRHiE0DpR7sGlgQAAXu6w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Stefan Monnier' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Thierry Volpiatto' X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.3 (------) > >We could do what I suggested in my message of 9/29: > > > >d> 3. Provide for optional backups, but if the user chooses not > >d> to back up, then do not visit the file. > >d> > >d> With #3, the user would pay the price that Stefan mentions for > >d> visiting the file only when s?he chooses backup. > > > >I based that on my understanding (still asking the question > >though, since I'm not sure) that you cannot back up the file > >unless you visit it. > > One thing I'm confused by: > > Why does backing up a file have anything to do with visiting it? Dunno. That's why I wrote "still asking the question though". And I've asked Stefan several times now (a) whether it is the case that you cannot back up without visiting and (b) if so, why. No response, so far. > Backing up just means making a copy. Not exactly. There is also a certain amount of checking and possibly interaction with the user depending on various states. > There is no reason why visiting the file in a buffer is necessary > for that (surely `copy-file' does not visit the file, for example). But the code for "backing up" (i.e., doing all that is necessary for that) seems to be in `save-buffer'. I don't see see any of that logic (checking this and that) done elsewhere. This kind of comes back to Thierry's suggestion that we might want to come up with a version of `write-region', which does not visit the file it writes to, that also backs up that file first. Or to do something similar. IOW, I don't see how to do it currently, other than visiting the file. > Yet in this discussion, the assumption is that to get backups, we have > to also visit the file. I'm the one who said that. But I am not sure. That's the conclusion I came to by looking around the code. But I'm no expert at all. And no one has corrected my conclusion. > >But those effects are anyway desirable, IF you want to back up the > >file. So it seems to me that what we want is to either (a) visit the > >file and do `save-buffer' or `write-file or equivalent IF the option > >value says to back up the file, or (b) do what we do not IF NOT. > > Hmm, this feels like a workaround. Instead, let's get to the > bottom of why backing up and visiting are linked at all. Feel free to investigate. My guess is that Stefan probably has the answer and perhaps a simple solution. > >In any case, it sounds like we have all agreed at least on > >the need of a way for a user to say whether or not s?he wants > >backups. `bookmark-version-control' does not do that - it controls > >only whether to use ordinary backups or numeric backups. So I > >think the first step is to add an option so that a user can > >express that choice. > > Yes, but... > > Is it worth it to have even `bookmark-version-control' at all? > The number of people who need backups on this file must be small, I think _most_ users should back it up. I think the same for a user's `custom-file' and for other user-data files that are typically not edited directly. The point is that users can make changes to such files, albeit indirectly, and they can later wish that they had a previous version to revert to. > since most users presumably do not edit it directly nor even know > where it is. See previous. The directly vs indirectly difference is a red herring, IMO. You can easily change the file - you can even delete it. It does not matter much whether you do that by editing it directly, interactively, or by issuing a general command that makes a change to it. The real question - for a given user - is whether what is in the file is important to that user and whether it would be difficult or take too long to re-create it from scratch. And also whether s?he might want to control/check/compare such changes incrementally - January vs July versions, for instance, instead of all or nothing - starting again from scratch. It's about the cost of re-creation and the difficulty of knowing how to do that - just what to re-create, and how to re-create the contexts that allow that bookmark re-creation. And yes, different users will have different answers. People can use bookmarks very differently. > A more general solution might be `bookmark-before-save-hook'. The few > people who want backups can DTRT in the hook, and bookmark's code > wouldn't need to worry about this at all. I don't think it is (should be) only a few people. Personally, I would suggest turning numeric backups for this on by default. Apparently I'm alone in that opinion. But the only argument given so far against this is the presumed "annoyance" of users by "littering the filesystem". That, to me, is presumptuous indeed. Far better to, by default, protect user data, and let users opt out of that default protection (backing up). But we can agree to disagree. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Oct 02 01:31:44 2012 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Oct 2012 05:31:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37000 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TIv55-0008Ss-Nf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2012 01:31:43 -0400 Received: from mail-we0-f172.google.com ([74.125.82.172]:39957) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TIv53-0008Sk-0b for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2012 01:31:42 -0400 Received: by weyu46 with SMTP id u46so3415664wey.3 for <12507@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 22:31:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:organization:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=JEKXIm87skD+NjF0E/PBkle86cNGATcJdZ26UVShLUc=; b=nPVRo9NVbqugqC4AjJxxsskALPIsu2DKtGz+ILtVVuuix+M6oeDRwVUJ4W2Pv1TbRQ DxYXIuO0eNMa33f3aU2ua6dNr4Se20o7u2AjwdIn4SjUwJt/P69XrabRB9ZN05cXOiHE uQdF/gdcdlzdcRcyiIgOtn0BWL3T1O1aUbtLWcT6ho1qZmYZ4kthx7S+LTtLTNlv0lzj ybqN7FwowMBrqfKjRhGGIzS/ejMicqLy+kohPqRkjr5206vTETfzaBi2ZdQD9SDpwcez u0tSWiln/8ISfEPDsow6dF8VsYCrQy/siRSwlo6QmzoTfZqP5L8mcFBpSv5HeuUrLBbi KcDQ== Received: by 10.180.79.2 with SMTP id f2mr19271804wix.2.1349155869742; Mon, 01 Oct 2012 22:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dell-14z (lbe83-2-78-243-104-167.fbx.proxad.net. [78.243.104.167]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p4sm488502wix.0.2012.10.01.22.31.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 01 Oct 2012 22:31:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Thierry Volpiatto To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12507: Have I mentioned how much I hate Debbugs? Organization: Emacs Helm References: <87d312hltc.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> <87k3v9dgyc.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com> <058D07630DCF42C18CA45AB3E07C0BF5@us.oracle.com> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2012 07:31:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <058D07630DCF42C18CA45AB3E07C0BF5@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 1 Oct 2012 15:00:54 -0700") Message-ID: <87r4phqw2y.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' , 'Stefan Monnier' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) "Drew Adams" writes: > > This kind of comes back to Thierry's suggestion that we might want to come up > with a version of `write-region', which does not visit the file it writes to, > that also backs up that file first. Or to do something similar. Just to clarify (I am not sure what mean "come up"): My final proposition is: (with-current-buffer (find-file-no-select FILE) ; [1] ;; 2) erase-buffer ;; 3) write DATA => bookmark-alist ;; 4) let-bound version-control to bookmark-version-control (save-buffer) [5] In [1] I still not understanding what is this paranoia about "visiting file" specially for this file that no body want to edit manually: bookmark save bookmark-alist in file in two different ways: - Immidiately when you bookmark something. - When emacs quit if bookmark-alist have been modified. So the file should never hang in a non--saved state at any point. In [4] if you remove bookmark-version-control, this don't mean the file will not be backed up, hopefully `version-control' will do its job. But it doesn't arm to keep bookmark-version-control. In [5], if you use [1] (i.e find-file-no-select) you don't want to use `write-file' because it use `set-visited-file-name'; you don't need it because find-file-no-select do it, so save-buffer is enough. So I don't understand why there is an interminable discussion on such simple changes. -- Thierry Get my Gnupg key: gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 18 11:02:53 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2020 15:02:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44103 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kJHuX-0008TB-AH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:02:53 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:55526) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kJHuV-0008Su-4P for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:02:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=y88X31pJaamWp3KVBUeAxk2huKMH5JhDDxSykWJ9b2Y=; b=gdbIfQqOR7ltO+S5Fvx7mO3hX+ fpHiArZh8ae+FBeEOErDFCRarh85dSy/aAYYulI8L32/q1kJhroPMiAU/x+hNewkyI3gWGBvNR/48 AbmP49DQVAkBFTIZpVX7QOxf3ph+RwBWYwmAKiQ4ggK9wjEtIltgPREdah+0QLyRZ30c=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kJHuJ-00075P-Qz; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 17:02:43 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Chong Yidong Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> X-Now-Playing: Saito Koji's _433-1_: "433_081" Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 17:02:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> (Chong Yidong's message of "Wed, 26 Sep 2012 10:53:50 +0800") Message-ID: <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Chong Yidong writes: > "Drew Adams" writes: > >> Am I wrong that `write-region' does not provide for backups? >> If not, then this is clearly a bug, and a pretty serious one, IMO. > > It would be a [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: 'Karl Fogel' , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Chong Yidong writes: > "Drew Adams" writes: > >> Am I wrong that `write-region' does not provide for backups? >> If not, then this is clearly a bug, and a pretty serious one, IMO. > > It would be annoying litter the filesystem with backups for every > internal configuration file. The abbrev file and desktop file are not > backed up either, and I think that's fine. > > I wouldn't mind adding a global feature to optionally enable backups for > such files. Indeed; data files are normally not backed up, and the bookmark file is one such file. So I'm closing this bug report. If somebody wants a global "make write-region make backup files" (possibly on a per-mode basis?), then a new bug report should be opened. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 18 11:02:57 2020 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2020 15:02:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44106 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kJHub-0008TR-Ie for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:02:57 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:55542) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kJHua-0008T2-5R for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:02:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ufgdsDnDbPZpjq8rydxBmAIWtKzSp6i2gjkLkaoERIo=; b=eW8QhFx0fToDk0BwpiZ4ukqE4x izNd2fSopjbvWsBMfd+tk64VVNQVOBQEcOEdQche9k5FARjCIwspTCeYgM7bJpwowvTo4uOXlm59W FM4HNNdxGgYOv3fMPbHUC2ZKp8/90jBzBSd0m+79MeuSt6U5i+fMkQklVp81p+1cjF8Q=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kJHuS-00075X-Av for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 17:02:50 +0200 Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 17:02:47 +0200 Message-Id: <871rizf7qg.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #12507 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 12507 notabug close 12507 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 12507 notabug close 12507 quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 18 12:23:54 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2020 16:23:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44287 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kJJAw-000094-Cc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 12:23:54 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:59564) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kJJAv-00008s-6n for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 12:23:53 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 08IGJiQi089810; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 16:23:47 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=qt3avTFuZ/GKEleYv3U0HhFIAq38CJ15bHtc3lHqGBs=; b=fVYSdaSy1j0PpYqqPlmuzM26PNxVdaP+oy/qVFEVO7Ogo+Xif6wk5rzorCpvG2APl5cG WhQzJTNESSwmWv+lRroKVXQk/tTLM9/VEzvokMqhHwrjfSv392CNgynv0aotv6147+/J Qs8908EzgLT8Z3h4H838yA0GYqelSMqwUiz7hHwE0qKRb8/qFpcVyQ8uJ9P0pJqXzvE+ Hk09ykdCl41mSkul79pYI0Nav8xiDaKHH3Ad/szHnn1oqx1tZ16FPkI6YuALT/n5wbN7 GccbYM7woh7T+EKh0KPbaCppEVdpcZ9k48fBrkRp8TXZIRxyweV4wbY0hAnSIvqDGyDu 1w== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33gnrrg7dr-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 18 Sep 2020 16:23:47 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 08IGJcnb122741; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 16:23:46 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33h88exf68-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 18 Sep 2020 16:23:46 +0000 Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 08IGNiXR018925; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 16:23:44 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 16:23:43 +0000 (UTC) From: Drew Adams To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Chong Yidong Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> In-Reply-To: <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5044.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9748 signatures=668679 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009180133 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9748 signatures=668679 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009180133 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: Karl Fogel , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > >> Am I wrong that `write-region' does not provide for backups? > >> If not, then this is clearly a bug, and a pretty serious one, IMO. > > > > It would be annoying litter the filesystem with backups for every > > internal configuration file. The abbrev file and desktop file are not > > backed up either, and I think that's fine. > > > > I wouldn't mind adding a global feature to optionally enable backups fo= r > > such files. >=20 > Indeed; data files are normally not backed up, and the bookmark file is > one such file. So I'm closing this bug report. >=20 > If somebody wants a global "make write-region make backup files" > (possibly on a per-mode basis?), then a new bug report should be opened. No, `write-region' should not, itself, make a backup file. It's not blanket either-everything-or-nothing. Some "data" files deserve backup; some don't. A bookmark file definitely does deserve it. It's typically updated frequently (each time a bookmark is visited). Emacs goes out of its way to protect user data. Why now we would think that only "code" or non-"data" files deserve backing up, I can't imagine. Some "data" files are quite important. A bookmark file is one such. `bookmark-write-file' should use `write-file', not `write-region'. I made that change in Bookmark+ 8 years ago. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 19 10:19:06 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2020 14:19:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47664 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kJdhh-0005Ej-RD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 19 Sep 2020 10:19:06 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:39360) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kJdhg-0005EF-Px for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 19 Sep 2020 10:19:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ShyVipz6oGP4irLYBi6sGcQv6Nq3XbnVgYyCg51knz4=; b=Pc7Z4dPJ66Dp4K3n3R1ryiHl9j 1etxlMkJGd0MYC2FmLTagyAqeCNnln/1mszUG+3BQYe1VUpiwgPwF3cWtV2X8k/rum25V2cIJjPtu bX7AsgbNekPdR9qm7j94EB6qmyIgjgPqy7+lIQYmlQFmbsgQ145c8S63faxCtbp8fezE=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kJdhX-0004Hq-Eq; Sat, 19 Sep 2020 16:18:57 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEULBwZfOTOpa1vs 1Mr///8qN6K2AAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+QJEw4KDPd64J8AAAGjSURBVDjLnZPrdcMw CIXBWUDgBQwsUIv9dysPOXZ62j/VyUPOJy7iQgAAiKe6+9w81xzA8QUDQJQLcAMZeSICUA40d1Jb AHABnaQ+VZV9EqsAWIFt1kFllsI/gA8ksUmUYE8wOLXVzxA1J2BtgNKA/YxMpdVg076NeSvGmRXh WYPm4QuMzmH5G9GeYHYdVGCrgmVz8YMsAXIBkJXjsBKLgCw9HWmPfFh6GbcuN+IdNlTpEFlDcIxC EFZKlOtRMI9ogNAN4gEonjlqnRQa1MDytqmbihGNWTvAkY5oguoWWTqf3s+2KvLqjFis2t0UvKyK Rsd5Udm7prijW4Ps84nDlmEJun/1iejXgqndp37a/I7wpZpU7Y547w649x8AfgDsBuZsXEDXOSBY 69LcF4APMIHQHoAucLIL3iC2o8FXCI0PcCwQxTwBi64cMfUFWBr4AqdFmxOsKI25WVKahgPuWt0n XTlOJa3ZRTp6kq5bKUkWyGLns0AdHK+MIDseoP6sAC9P8YclX+9tDBbdYL63r8+I8bQU3ylw3SIx wi/rTwD/A98NUniNb/NXxQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMC0wOS0xOVQxNDoxMDoxMisw MDowME8PeyUAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjAtMDktMTlUMTQ6MTA6MTIrMDA6MDA+UsOZ AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Propaganda's _A Secret Wish (2)_: "Do Well (The First Cut-Duel-Jewel (Cut Rough)-Wonder-Bejewelled)" Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2020 16:18:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 18 Sep 2020 16:23:43 +0000 (UTC)") Message-ID: <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Drew Adams writes: > No, `write-region' should not, itself, make a backup file. No, but there should perhaps be a global mechanism for modes to decide whether the data it writes should have backup files, and these modes should then call a wrapper around `write-region' that does t [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: Karl Fogel , Chong Yidong , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: > No, `write-region' should not, itself, make a backup file. No, but there should perhaps be a global mechanism for modes to decide whether the data it writes should have backup files, and these modes should then call a wrapper around `write-region' that does this stuff. And it should be user-customisable, if it exists. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 19 13:30:22 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Sep 2020 17:30:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48019 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kJggn-000088-MY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 19 Sep 2020 13:30:22 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:60450) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kJggl-0008SC-Cs for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 19 Sep 2020 13:30:20 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 08JHUDRc027597; Sat, 19 Sep 2020 17:30:13 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=YYn9hS9RfrZGLaAnLftxkfXAIWdtkN01qCiu9i2x4i0=; b=MDYLiG02xkB/gfeFt24zPVkL+4Ov8NuRPN/J1qj7+ROqddFZsNXUkox5lB4XxDJIlEeo fWq1LSCu7gImZCfLANjRlIgX1rA5NpaE4woTsWWA0rjkBP0dJwT4RM4u02srNGXsgJhp zGW0RD8r2ExE354nttVxkCKmyWHQgUNyrvLiVmfz6g0oO0VGQL0tSzxITNrjiAxt4mU9 D+Bv0OOluEBue6ntrHb1Swqb4qO7hWYvtNxTX/SfEj8r2IIPE/Ejq9lw1q3bleyUa8hu Fl1YEKac2AwJqtaHoxfh2aDkZmmhko4d77uTM7H7WCz7vC5GxjDXQ7q6iSiFw79l/VH/ /w== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33ndnu0w0r-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 19 Sep 2020 17:30:13 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 08JHUCHx063314; Sat, 19 Sep 2020 17:30:12 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33n81954ma-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 19 Sep 2020 17:30:12 +0000 Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 08JHU0GS010126; Sat, 19 Sep 2020 17:30:00 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2020 10:29:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> In-Reply-To: <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5044.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9749 signatures=668679 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=960 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009190151 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9749 signatures=668679 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=984 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009190151 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: Karl Fogel , Chong Yidong , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > No, `write-region' should not, itself, make a backup file. >=20 > No, but there should perhaps be a global mechanism for modes to decide > whether the data it writes should have backup files, and these modes > should then call a wrapper around `write-region' that does this stuff. >=20 > And it should be user-customisable, if it exists. Huh? This is about a particular context (mode, if you like). In _this particular context_ the proper behavior is to use `write-file'. There's zero reason to use `write-region' in this context. And to fix this context in this regard there's zero reason to propose some far-reaching, general change to `write-region'. `write-region' is simply the wrong function to use in this context. Trying to generalize this for all contexts is a different solution (in search of a problem). The subject of this bug report is: "`bookmark-write-file': use `write-file', not `write-region' , to get backups" To be clear, if this isn't clear already: This doesn't affect me or my code, personally, because I fixed this long ago in Bookmark+. I'm just trying to help vanilla Emacs DTRT. There's a real bug here, which I can attest to because Bookmark+ users have lamented not having backed up their bookmark files (before I fixed the code to use `write-file'). There's no reason to expect or require users to manually back up their bookmark files, especially when it's trivial for Emacs itself to DTRT and provide backup by default. By _default_. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 23 02:41:58 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2020 06:41:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34318 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kKyTV-0003fJ-SV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 02:41:58 -0400 Received: from newsp.red-bean.com ([45.79.25.59]:42914 helo=sanpietro.red-bean.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kKyTS-0003f6-It for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 02:41:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=red-bean.com; s=202005newsp; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:Reply-To:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=Qyy4m3AlSGyUQkfYrvczhTy4toord879QGBqtuSxJnc=; t=1600843314; x=1602052914; b=NfNHGp4uBdulSwb6mnC+h2TxNeQnn1zYtqr+DF8ojwtQ1NJoWbPkox/uXh4KcXMIlOVCti5ntv zb6+nJtQXCZh7PXrK+bLqKmJq3ladJodlhOf7IsfV+R/vhg5dK0zPKjiwaj8zajieNHYH0qEdR9ub An+c3CkdpbYtyq2zdYVES+icDVj/3qcTkUvk/FV3Lkb46hZWUwu8pLys+/uR/AODLECXYA9GQ5hfW V8KfsGq+KHzmsqT2nL+qPo5Mwj2Mda4YR5Ur0/XN8T274o+eTUuxRRhTe0z22/WiKtcCIpDDqRLrx Nqp0pJBFXh0Q/n3PWWSE9i/A8NZ8VHVykbm4w==; Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:38958 helo=floss) by sanpietro.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kKyTR-0004Yf-Dt; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 06:41:53 +0000 From: Karl Fogel To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 01:41:52 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 19 Sep 2020 10:29:58 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Chong Yidong , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Karl Fogel Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) I've just been deep-diving into this again. I'd like feedback on this general plan for a solution: 1) In files.el: define a new function `back-up-file' [a] that takes a file name as argument and does most of what `backup-buffer' currently does -- basically, everything from the second `when' on down to the end of the function. 2) Change `backup-buffer' to use the new function `back-up-file'. In other words, we abstract out most of the Emacs file backup functionality to this new function `back-up-file' so we can call it in (3) below, passing a file name argument. 3) In bookmark.el, in `bookmark-write-file', call `back-up-file' right before the `write-region' call. (Note that the ambient value of `version-control' will already be correct at this point.) Before I make the patch, I wanted to propose the general idea here and see if it seems okay to others. This way we would still use `write-region' and avoid visiting the file. Even though we don't know exactly why Richard made the original motivating change (commit cfde584f6d, see [b] below), there was some problem with `write-file' -- so we shouldn't just go back to that, because a regression would be likely. Thoughts on this plan? Best regards, -Karl [a] Yes, I know I've inserted a hyphen into "back-up" in that function name. That's because in English "back up" is a compound verb, whereas "backup" as one word is a noun. The existing function name "backup-buffer" is thus grammatically suspect, but I'm not proposing to fix that here; I'm just trying to avoid repeating the confusion. If folks would prefer "backup-file" for consistency, I could do that, or maybe just find another name. The details of the function names are not the point here -- I'm just looking for feedback on the general plan. [b] Commit cfde584f6d: =============================================== commit cfde584f6d25db8c0ba229ebb85fba60e99eb1af Author: Richard M. Stallman AuthorDate: Sun May 29 08:36:26 2005 +0000 Commit: Richard M. Stallman CommitDate: Sun May 29 08:36:26 2005 +0000 (save-place-alist-to-file): Write the file using write-region. M lisp/saveplace.el =============================================== --- lisp/saveplace.el +++ lisp/saveplace.el @@ -222,7 +222,8 @@ save-place-alist-to-file (t t)))) (condition-case nil - (write-file file) + ;; Don't use write-file; we don't want this buffer to visit it. + (write-region (point-min) (point-max) file) (file-error (message "Can't write %s" file))) (kill-buffer (current-buffer)) (message "Saving places to %s...done" file))))) =============================================== From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 23 09:34:20 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2020 13:34:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34861 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kL4ua-0003O6-Jz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 09:34:20 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:44354) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kL4uZ-0003Nm-Dc for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 09:34:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6AHsulLaSHeZ8kKJ/gqYZK+Vnz5hKULcVA1HY/Km+KE=; b=C8NrhGmyP808flzsBwuPuxDtHB QHvmbk+5C1VQtcEkcrpkFHflLkmU0f+opkEiGVjoJA3MDgaYhr6Lb403DKZK3fgDZp5T18paWfft2 WcPp5gaBVo6VQo0t3ubsgvVwcdjbCr9QOM20fhSy88BGKYd+JBb74spXV6BU3lu3DjVg=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kL4uI-0007ur-SJ; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 15:34:12 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Karl Fogel Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAGFBMVEUpKCYfHRxIRjxR UEhAPjpqaWKEgnn///8ghV9sAAAAAWJLR0QHFmGI6wAAAAd0SU1FB+QJFwwgNtL7tjwAAAGISURB VDjLnZO/csMgDMaFCZlxfN4pNDuHTpm7dM+Z4wl66fs/QiXiJPhPlmoAW79In/hwAJpQvQT0FsDC BthVsgan9wFYxWkFe2Qv3TkAHZdEBsEUe4dfIbYNOgCTUrT8C90WUClXE1JaC9jJewaIa9UhJR8N pQraViYFboXbCgY4GY/oYOmS8azxzcuHvEUI2jbgiBhU1MjgKWNugThFSV5cO0Apctwhir/s/lNG 0VWex+vGvlJTl5dLh/vkNEkryv5h6UN78ucSeV0fkKdNIRf2Ki3yKjDw4YdBWMgr9D5MHQrIrSGQ vKeb0WkD+Dbo93zikpBfNw1wqhU0YGD3WzByRXA4iFRpO41c4RWNxPsCGAGAI66AOnoBWVotwUWA yiOtgSQ+gYZd4MBY2akF5Q4gr0G+gyg7tpbkOpW+duxytM1NVeAAxUzXHlBOLCUgaxu6FD40P3QM VM9/XWUfUphnoDQZIsL5JlWvJ9lZIhByPj4/JEUzmFs1Flc1eBPdO3CAf0bV/gPFW0REvhNm3gAA ACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMC0wOS0yM1QxMjozMjo1NCswMDowMPPAF2wAAAAldEVYdGRh dGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjAtMDktMjNUMTI6MzI6NTQrMDA6MDCCna/QAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Herbert's _Bodily Functions_: "Addiction" Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 15:34:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> (Karl Fogel's message of "Wed, 23 Sep 2020 01:41:52 -0500") Message-ID: <87imc4d3cm.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Karl Fogel writes: > I've just been deep-diving into this again. I'd like feedback on this general plan for a solution: > > 1) In files.el: define a new function `back-up-file' [a] that takes a > file name as argument a [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: Chong Yidong , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Karl Fogel writes: > I've just been deep-diving into this again. I'd like feedback on this general plan for a solution: > > 1) In files.el: define a new function `back-up-file' [a] that takes a > file name as argument and does most of what `backup-buffer' currently > does -- basically, everything from the second `when' on down to the > end of the function. > > 2) Change `backup-buffer' to use the new function `back-up-file'. > > In other words, we abstract out most of the Emacs file backup > functionality to this new function `back-up-file' so we can call it > in (3) below, passing a file name argument. Sounds perfect. There's a bunch of modes in Emacs that want to do a backup file, and they go through all these contortions to make this happen. > 3) In bookmark.el, in `bookmark-write-file', call `back-up-file' right > before the `write-region' call. (Note that the ambient value of > `version-control' will already be correct at this point.) Sure. > [a] Yes, I know I've inserted a hyphen into "back-up" in that function > name. That's because in English "back up" is a compound verb, > whereas "backup" as one word is a noun. The existing function name > "backup-buffer" is thus grammatically suspect, but I'm not proposing > to fix that here; I'm just trying to avoid repeating the confusion. > If folks would prefer "backup-file" for consistency, I could do > that, or maybe just find another name. I'd rather go with `backup-file', just because of the analogy to `backup-buffer'. `back-up-file' just looks odd in that context, even if more correct. Or perhaps just make it even more explicit: `make-backup-file'? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 23 10:27:52 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2020 14:27:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37407 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kL5kN-0005wS-Uy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 10:27:52 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43952) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kL5kK-0005w7-2y for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 10:27:50 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45351) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kL5kE-0004Tg-DR; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 10:27:42 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1352 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1kL5kC-0006Kf-Hq; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 10:27:41 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 17:27:46 +0300 Message-Id: <83sgb8va8t.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Karl Fogel In-Reply-To: <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> (message from Karl Fogel on Wed, 23 Sep 2020 01:41:52 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: larsi@gnus.org, cyd@gnu.org, 12507@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Karl Fogel > Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 01:41:52 -0500 > Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Chong Yidong , > 12507@debbugs.gnu.org > > This way we would still use `write-region' and avoid visiting the file. Why do we have to keep to use write-region? > Even though we don't know exactly why Richard made the original motivating change (commit cfde584f6d, see [b] below), there was some problem with `write-file' -- so we shouldn't just go back to that, because a regression would be likely. You already had this discussion with Richard back then, see https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2005-05/msg01376.html If what Richard wrote in response is not clear enough, we can ask him to try to elaborate. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 23 12:23:19 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2020 16:23:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37612 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kL7Xv-0001WG-6L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 12:23:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44570) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kL7Xt-0001V3-Kv for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 12:23:06 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:47172) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kL7Xn-0000FQ-Ua; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 12:22:59 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4715 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1kL7Xn-0002fi-7c; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 12:22:59 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 19:23:03 +0300 Message-Id: <83ft78v4wo.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Lars Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <87imc4d3cm.fsf@gnus.org> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 23 Sep 2020 15:34:01 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> <87imc4d3cm.fsf@gnus.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, cyd@gnu.org, 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen > Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 15:34:01 +0200 > Cc: Chong Yidong , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org > > Karl Fogel writes: > > > I've just been deep-diving into this again. I'd like feedback on this general plan for a solution: > > > > 1) In files.el: define a new function `back-up-file' [a] that takes a > > file name as argument and does most of what `backup-buffer' currently > > does -- basically, everything from the second `when' on down to the > > end of the function. > > > > 2) Change `backup-buffer' to use the new function `back-up-file'. > > > > In other words, we abstract out most of the Emacs file backup > > functionality to this new function `back-up-file' so we can call it > > in (3) below, passing a file name argument. > > Sounds perfect. There's a bunch of modes in Emacs that want to do a > backup file, and they go through all these contortions to make this > happen. Maybe this would be a good feature to have, but going back to the original problem of bookmark file, I think that the easiest fix is to go back to using write-file. Karl changed that 15 years ago because he followed suit of saveplace.el, but I think there's a significant difference between the files these two packages maintain: the file with bookmarks is much more close to being "user data" than the file written by saveplace.el. So I don't think they need both to treat their files the same, wrt backing them up. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 23 14:14:05 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2020 18:14:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37805 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kL9HI-0005Pf-TO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 14:14:05 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:36356) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kL9HG-0005P1-L3 for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 14:14:03 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 08NI9XQA135026; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 18:13:57 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=txKtf2nOaUOHe6WvbKAfSc6TUs1x9Z42xE6dCNcmyEw=; b=JgJXp13+WdBr2SXemzYntpuXLOTE14O7VOTZ3NLPqsI9cF5U8ooJQFNFJti/ki+jjS8h UemOUI31D9sZJ/DjIxiX4Ky3om+QeNpZWbpxxR4TkueUGY15Z3104VUTjRplbiT2xzde MxETBefB3E16++2iSGZjeccU7gK4NxByZa7dqBxftih3vIWwq/K/7L1bg4pxUef+exps RpMrkxLzyDJL4/oB8ts0NVaSKOoozHxT8D+27aAyQNPFHjQ33ktaNrex7qmHKYTpX6o2 Swlnrf2qW7kLeXDiMJdEX549vURz8qHCswH9uuJk/JP8fgvqYw0aU5ohV29AdCPeCUh4 Gg== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33q5rgjdgk-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Sep 2020 18:13:57 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 08NIARtf102317; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 18:13:56 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33nujpwerh-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 23 Sep 2020 18:13:56 +0000 Received: from abhmp0006.oracle.com (abhmp0006.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 08NIDtae003495; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 18:13:55 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <75114652-4742-48ad-ac46-eb74d28b6608@default> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 11:13:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Karl Fogel Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> <83sgb8va8t.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83sgb8va8t.fsf@gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5056.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9753 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009230138 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9753 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009230138 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: larsi@gnus.org, cyd@gnu.org, 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > This way we would still use `write-region' and avoid visiting the file. >=20 > Why do we have to keep to use write-region? We don't. > > Even though we don't know exactly why Richard made the original motivat= ing > change (commit cfde584f6d, see [b] below), there was some problem with > `write-file' -- so we shouldn't just go back to that, because a regressio= n > would be likely. >=20 > You already had this discussion with Richard back then, see >=20 > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs- > devel/2005- > 05/msg01376.html__;!!GqivPVa7Brio!OSjUJblLyJ3EpHMJp5DOIs2JXP2on_caEr0IyNh= 9zTt > iU5_MphK2KXh6pWfteriy$ >=20 > If what Richard wrote in response is not clear enough, we can ask him > to try to elaborate. Thanks for finding that. Clearly, the save-place use case is particular, and the reason for it to use `write-region' doesn't apply to the use of a bookmark file. That's clear to me, at least, from what RMS said: If bookmark.el currently visits the file when reading it, changing the way it writes the file would not alter the outcome. How often do users visit the bookmark file? If they do this commonly, then it is better to visit the file. If they do this quite rarely, then could be is better to work like save-place-alist-to-file. Another alternative, which could be best if you want Emacs to make backup= s of the bookmark file in the usual way, is to visit the file normally, but kill the buffer after saving it, unless the buffer existed previously= . From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 23 14:14:29 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2020 18:14:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37809 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kL9Hh-0005Qa-7v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 14:14:29 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:36746) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kL9Hb-0005QA-Ia for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 14:14:27 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 08NI9DR3134873; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 18:14:18 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=26H3YlRhC+UtrdGw1vP5buMZzKLSQ2mFUv4uAb67TxM=; b=tTOMy4dawCJiCAema60hXl03lWe11J6wTwhdBQSCNj9SlXacLVry+rE669DqOPCQDeVt E0NtOQ7AWp054jwrXwCHtgiMTViDlfM1ya/rYu4omXfAhLsgjBYKCI4ecc02NUT3iDlb KuvfLZcX3yyLjh3boKEAwjOVLXhQyFF2m6rU2xUFkpo6+Dyhf0Iwxc73nqiqr35LDDPr s95C1QoqqX0aq8cTl2hUrxfnNqfIiCrqwFuA/txDz9UpUj30LZke/pT7kKPngIGhz1/O XGEXhw+21ytdYQLISAqDkJomgab8ndnnM4UJhyPuaQKD6T4qfW78rpp0glDwiPMr/hvU NA== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33q5rgjdjm-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 23 Sep 2020 18:14:18 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 08NIA5nm193708; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 18:14:17 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33r28vyvtu-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 23 Sep 2020 18:14:17 +0000 Received: from abhmp0006.oracle.com (abhmp0006.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 08NIEHiY016438; Wed, 23 Sep 2020 18:14:17 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 11:14:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Karl Fogel Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> In-Reply-To: <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5056.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9753 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009230138 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9753 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009230138 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Chong Yidong , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hi Karl, At this point I don't have anything special to say about your general proposal regarding backups. My comments regard the bookmarks code. 1. I don't see why this proposal is in bug #12507. It seems like a general proposal, which should probably go to emacs-devel. 2. I don't see why the bookmark code shouldn't visit the file. That hasn't been explained. You cite a commit for save-place, not for bookmark.el. And even for that commit there's no explanation of _why_ the particular file shouldn't be visited. I switched to using `write-file' for bookmark files long ago, and I haven't seen any problem. When using a bookmark file, you're anyway visiting it, in some sense. I see no inconvenience in having the bookmark file be added to a list of visited files. You might not be reading or editing it directly (as text), but you're definitely reading it or editing it indirectly. Until we hear a reason for why `write-region' should be used for bookmark files, using it seems like a solution (for save-place?) looking for a problem. What's wrong with the obvious, simple solution to the real, recognized problem of no backups for bookmark files: use `write-file'? That's the first question to ask and answer, no? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 24 09:58:50 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Sep 2020 13:58:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41078 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kLRlq-0001I0-Bm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 09:58:50 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56620) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kLRll-0001Hh-2B for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 09:58:48 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=nTT/reYPJEgYxpNWJpGn4yr/FT340KTEsX7k3/Bx7rM=; b=SIpStWBG919kKMgWAi3KOplwrT v3FF1S8MesW5kyItRmtSYk0TJddnUZRn/3zXxSDArpTzD+E1WoAJuGUF/OoK21TnbhBOhav02jPIG 2Xm5V3HRvqXvHXNCiMkNgPpIG1uI6dBesZXl6koo5F6OhlNhGvu7aVcCQv5fJcd3frVY=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kLRlY-0006zJ-7q; Thu, 24 Sep 2020 15:58:38 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> <87imc4d3cm.fsf@gnus.org> <83ft78v4wo.fsf@gnu.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEX59fDgy9/QtdS4 jsObYa7////LZt21AAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+QJGA0gMow3CEQAAAGpSURBVDjLfVSL kYQgDCVuAyQ2YGAbEGlAof+aLiSA3u3OZWZdzPPlT5xDFWJiRkKvb4zOQTDhgIHk2WVzi+io6UWL 3I5kAIT5GWMQK08GE6KZk9MAhOjdLaBPMob7kD/AzZTQnwDiNgDUqG5gcIgU6K/gp60ebjcAUo9+ CuzdejMk836K/E+4dAOAN+CfwJOB8uMR7SiIU+XNkPJF/60krXkPHxPABsE3gJLY6plbHmYYYNrS zJffjTLhZorVFBAjJuwcEgZ1oBbMeaeDrewz81etfMX9XZM1qvngDuyx7rlegzGBpEAqVoRt1OpV j/Ndz3xco7UdWGrhXMWHAsvNgPeOsTAlmo2iUXaZKz8mUZRkKYFEuCYkK8OiPvQIR0KJeK2nAswD eJ2ZajlD1HAXSbD7eF051XLlXPqIKasBaT0llePoCXoNuQEl7g9AGMAWVc0c67bma/jopmQqWz/g 8KOIMOfqOXDSKKAvk7jIxZEOIkK7yLYV/GgU2YUPQfaFjGz714+kLLYA2gJpElh3iY6PEdQaygYg Qut52yJsa4b0a9Hw56wN+QHLNkp6R8zzFQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMC0wOS0yNFQx MzozMjo0OSswMDowMH7SV8IAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjAtMDktMjRUMTM6MzI6NDkr MDA6MDAPj+9+AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Fairport Convention's _Liege & Lief_: "Tam Lin" Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 15:58:30 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83ft78v4wo.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 23 Sep 2020 19:23:03 +0300") Message-ID: <87eemrb7jt.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: > Maybe this would be a good feature to have, but going back to the > original problem of bookmark file, I think that the easiest fix is to > go back to using write-file. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, cyd@gnu.org, 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Maybe this would be a good feature to have, but going back to the > original problem of bookmark file, I think that the easiest fix is to > go back to using write-file. Sure; I have no opinion about going back to using write-file in bookmark.el, but Karl's backup-file (or whatever it's going to be called) patch should be applied in any case. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 29 01:25:07 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2020 05:25:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54598 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kN88R-00087X-02 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 01:25:07 -0400 Received: from newsp.red-bean.com ([45.79.25.59]:38244 helo=sanpietro.red-bean.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kN88O-00087N-M1 for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 01:25:06 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=red-bean.com; s=202005newsp; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:Reply-To:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=Qn5oB0wZo91efAB3OwnFA/V1Jegh9qPwjXL+Y3jYU+U=; t=1601357104; x=1602566704; b=HVSCBb8+Ax/tb9/p4nmfTt/fXohaYgSXg1XP8VrpiHMG0b90aWrOousnTKOyq13cGmEpul4poF M/55vLRPAbOEM/zYdLpBXLKDCZ1MDI7+kYT/Cq37xpeaahQxDanwTZHYAn07FGsFe6+UhhbcIJI4c /1lDdb9GgkevffpXXGDOOYaZVeZpVlhrHD0YLlU2ZNSobHisLnRRFr9OLrbOyaPSqyO3Zn+ZBe6ua n6eH7t6N/oD4hZzMay4P+KZZ41P3EHusgeSpQKZJzON5z326UZB/ZsQ3QxrX8vIfNxgxgUy9kwTfY 54YIEmw/Pe1jnKs0askHpkfEcL57k+7nunOLg==; Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:54994 helo=floss) by sanpietro.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kN88N-0006bj-LA; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 05:25:03 +0000 From: Karl Fogel To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 00:25:02 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 23 Sep 2020 11:14:16 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <875z7x889d.fsf@red-bean.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Chong Yidong , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Karl Fogel Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 23 Sep 2020, Drew Adams wrote: >At this point I don't have anything special to say >about your general proposal regarding backups. My >comments regard the bookmarks code. > >1. I don't see why this proposal is in bug #12507. > It seems like a general proposal, which should > probably go to emacs-devel. When the first motivation for a change that has potentially general use is for fixing a specific bug, I normally initiate the discussion of that change in the ticket for the bug, since there isn't anything else directly motivating the change (even if we suspect it has more general use beyond just being part of the bugfix). The more general change may be worth mentioning on emacs-devel once the bug-specific thread has consensed, of course; it's just that I wouldn't start out on emacs-devel, because the discussion may go elsewhere and the change might not happen after all. >2. I don't see why the bookmark code shouldn't visit > the file. That hasn't been explained. You cite > a commit for save-place, not for bookmark.el. > And even for that commit there's no explanation > of _why_ the particular file shouldn't be visited. > >I switched to using `write-file' for bookmark files >long ago, and I haven't seen any problem. When using >a bookmark file, you're anyway visiting it, in some >sense. I see no inconvenience in having the bookmark >file be added to a list of visited files. You might >not be reading or editing it directly (as text), but >you're definitely reading it or editing it indirectly. > >Until we hear a reason for why `write-region' should >be used for bookmark files, using it seems like a >solution (for save-place?) looking for a problem. > >What's wrong with the obvious, simple solution to the >real, recognized problem of no backups for bookmark >files: use `write-file'? That's the first question >to ask and answer, no? I can't think of any reason now. I have a vague memory that there *was* a specific reason, but if there was, I failed to document adequately at the time and have been unable to recover it now. Eli helpfully linked to Richard's message (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2005-05/msg01376.html), in which Richard points out that if bookmark visits the file anyway when reading, then there's nothing to be gained (from the perspective of saveplace.el interference) from avoiding visiting it when writing. And `bookmark-load' *does* visit the file when reading, so I'm leaning toward just taking your suggestion and reverting to `write-file' -- but this time leaving better historical breadcrumbs (in comments and/or log messages) in case my vaguely-remembered bug turns out to be real and reappears. I will do this as soon as I have time to focus on it and make sure I don't make a silly blunder; that may be several days. Best regards, -Karl From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 29 01:28:02 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2020 05:28:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54620 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kN8BG-0008Cg-1J for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 01:28:02 -0400 Received: from newsp.red-bean.com ([45.79.25.59]:38332 helo=sanpietro.red-bean.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kN8BE-0008CT-41 for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 01:28:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=red-bean.com; s=202005newsp; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:Reply-To:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=KIUmZ7/bHZMS+YmK4cSx9iRE6UYMpBJa/Vi9ARdMu3s=; t=1601357280; x=1602566880; b=UmM6j0UNnOnhaqwvT1CiHoCf1xepy+yvCge9vxlRfpU3DcVxZri9I5pM/dOye1IABgKlTehfBj BWK79ZS1cEbRXxoFsmM7QVGLOFt12vd4NlPif9n0YOUPwlICa+Rx2bzqr2sou3c4ztQKov3YV3W8Z QEDkgHkblua77lMun5svNulQCEFuMSRA9GsNG4TuK1DB+SjAtRyVnFuA3zJ57BeA5mBi9KvGJnx2W DEZr9AorS0fdtBQqCMIRw+Ou+KRtx6Q3rI2uXNuM99P4br8ittUUQ5O8Fa/2tbHxLHr6h65pHAfXB t7NJvMo3fA69WC6jCMXHIk34WiJcrF6xofIMw==; Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:55004 helo=floss) by sanpietro.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kN8BD-0006hD-Ot; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 05:27:59 +0000 From: Karl Fogel To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> <87imc4d3cm.fsf@gnus.org> <83ft78v4wo.fsf@gnu.org> <87eemrb7jt.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 00:27:58 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87eemrb7jt.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Thu, 24 Sep 2020 15:58:30 +0200") Message-ID: <871ril884h.fsf@red-bean.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , cyd@gnu.org, 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Karl Fogel Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 24 Sep 2020, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: >Eli Zaretskii writes: >Sure; I have no opinion about going back to using write-file in >bookmark.el, but Karl's backup-file (or whatever it's going to be >called) patch should be applied in any case. It looks like my solution in bookmark.el won't need that 'backup-file' patch after all. Lars, if you still want that change, shall we have quick conversation on emacs-devel about it, just people have a chance to weigh in? I'm happy to make the change, but I also think it would be more coherent to do it together with some accompanying change that actually *uses* the new functionality -- and you suggested you might have some of the latter that you'd like to make. Feel free to respond with a new thread on emacs-devel; I'll keep an eye open for it. Best regards, -Karl From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 29 10:29:41 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2020 14:29:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56816 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kNGdR-0003J9-1P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 10:29:41 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:34366) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kNGdP-0003Iu-FQ for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 10:29:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=uPsIyuBLdHy6RsEVIrTiMsUgr2bQyMZVnwZmnBNjA+Q=; b=ETJp6mWcT4N0ZWZmPnBenHe3nM tQSPM1CJ4n1gyd7GKeX+y/mu36u37S0zO3xWinELNCE7poJ4WaErA/s9BvzuhUm4Jxy/DtxKPWuK2 l4NoZedoS4vMXM4CBdJZ/Kcgd41SHPX4qWaRd6Lbj8wZ1ivO1dhg0ohxaCkqjMzB/fKE=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kNGdC-0007mh-QP; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 16:29:32 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Karl Fogel Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> <87imc4d3cm.fsf@gnus.org> <83ft78v4wo.fsf@gnu.org> <87eemrb7jt.fsf@gnus.org> <871ril884h.fsf@red-bean.com> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEXqrHHxuHeOV0n/ //+Q3bmOAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+QJHQ4HBdvXUUUAAAGoSURBVCjPPZLBiqNAEIZ/ g+7Bkz2k95DTZmFA+ylM0CXkpFIVlj3NceJTyBBhN8cFL3OKgtBTT7mlMFsnv67+q/+qEoHlV3ti Yg0EzG3fWraWCkTMrhebByYsoVnpxJxFxMAypxDTrqAZv5HDklmvAWm5QKFAwBWf1wi/M/sJFUQO VUE1L5lucmyMLbQAPY0K23qpxJddJjIcw+6Pan7FqZP5OHnRTBtnTsajf6zQevk7M9eFPpq+Zu59 4LUfztLs+3lgyqEF5tTH7QCNAKTgnH1YtYjL8OKdZ2yBGMQvcv9YvT+pt6v4fc0UBzsYvqbiS27k 8g6KFMSy8z/uKDd7Jx2T807Au771oNiJwjYWeaBx2raAdC4dINMC0LPbZuq/LpAo+HPf7P7DiTar plIYOXdverZCRNhXIrN6FenzmeJJkvUdLZD7eNROF+mu/nJzt1q9KXDjklGnY8O7ilx/7LkArIrG jGLLBodV9Gw8K5Ss65FTMxoqAVL4qBrdumqarchev0qbABWn6U9mu2iQcxQlukZDtc40jL6FupHl R9IwSBAWRRL+A9HYwN1lk68TAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIwLTA5LTI5VDE0OjA3OjA1 KzAwOjAwNsraCAAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMC0wOS0yOVQxNDowNzowNSswMDowMEeX YrQAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: 23 Skidoo's _Seven Songs_: "Quiet Village" Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 16:29:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: <871ril884h.fsf@red-bean.com> (Karl Fogel's message of "Tue, 29 Sep 2020 00:27:58 -0500") Message-ID: <87d024d5bu.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Karl Fogel writes: > Lars, if you still want that change, shall we have quick conversation > on emacs-devel about it, just people have a chance to weigh in? I'm > happy to make the change, but I also think it would be m [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , cyd@gnu.org, 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Karl Fogel writes: > Lars, if you still want that change, shall we have quick conversation > on emacs-devel about it, just people have a chance to weigh in? I'm > happy to make the change, but I also think it would be more coherent > to do it together with some accompanying change that actually *uses* > the new functionality -- and you suggested you might have some of the > latter that you'd like to make. I don't think further discussion of the feature is necessary, really -- it's something that I've wanted for a long time, and basically any package that has some non-file-based data it wishes to store has to do weird stuff if they don't want to actually visit a file to get a backup file. For instance `gnus-save-newsrc-file' for a particularly horrid old example that could be reduced to a couple lines with a backup-file function instead. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 29 11:45:29 2020 Received: (at 12507) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2020 15:45:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56968 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kNHom-0005mn-Sb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 11:45:29 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:41034) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kNHok-0005eu-Gd for 12507@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 11:45:27 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 08TFTXsl002906; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 15:45:20 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=3WhIRM2WxwmI9S1zLGAsfPstn6A614rEPIY07MfBMJo=; b=Y6Yf2Psa3T2fj06ud4dubzIjJfgjAryA/1crZ60ibnDGtarvy48JPkGUtIGECDB1BelF zGrrk1zv7mn3wAuZkPEICTgpt+fOU5RV67Trt/nuAYQj9ULnSWqk6tIvfQJ8FJ/1mKVL u8jQtd44AE5ym823MYIEkinwgh8DzEeSN97zYdi9GFrQ6AsOYBZySfAvqNdrULlydobP IyVZokvsN1TU3PLNj2EN+n7CXAy3AXuYYerW6oI1lDEQ1YOReE9PUNW77jJOYp9do9D2 WluHxp5ySfKcY7yaf52c47TIk2zC6meSgrW4yQkwTHosltMei95So8zFDb2cUb3CO1Ux Ug== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33swkkuqaw-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 29 Sep 2020 15:45:19 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 08TFUrl6176785; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 15:45:19 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33uv2e3379-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 29 Sep 2020 15:45:19 +0000 Received: from abhmp0006.oracle.com (abhmp0006.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 08TFjIZK027061; Tue, 29 Sep 2020 15:45:18 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2020 08:45:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Karl Fogel Subject: RE: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> <875z7x889d.fsf@red-bean.com> In-Reply-To: <875z7x889d.fsf@red-bean.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5056.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9759 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009290135 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9759 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009290135 X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Chong Yidong , 12507@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.9 (---) > >What's wrong with the obvious, simple solution to the > >real, recognized problem of no backups for bookmark > >files: use `write-file'? That's the first question > >to ask and answer, no? >=20 > I can't think of any reason now. I have a vague memory that there *was* = a > specific reason, but if there was, I failed to document adequately at the > time and have been unable to recover it now. >=20 > Eli helpfully linked to Richard's message > (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs- > devel/2005- > 05/msg01376.html__;!!GqivPVa7Brio!OesHeMbHNKqFeUCyyW2WJ0UeXBZjSXngBYlvA1Q= 5G9F > zXXgAa30g7LGrcwolObMB$ ), in which Richard points out that if bookmark vi= sits > the file anyway when reading, then there's nothing to be gained (from the > perspective of saveplace.el interference) from avoiding visiting it when > writing. >=20 > And `bookmark-load' *does* visit the file when reading, so I'm leaning to= ward > just taking your suggestion and reverting to `write-file' -- but this tim= e > leaving better historical breadcrumbs (in comments and/or log messages) i= n > case my vaguely-remembered bug turns out to be real and reappears. >=20 > I will do this as soon as I have time to focus on it and make sure I don'= t > make a silly blunder; that may be several days. Thanks for looking into this, Karl. (No hurry.) From unknown Sat Jun 21 03:16:48 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. 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bh=EYZSGGYMV2eN3WfKOJ7RoTuQkEGKyOnmTQuFhT9ko+4=; t=1606610609; x=1607820209; b=bj3gFq95rFdjhXLLQ3DhFw/dcc6dS8e7I0gbScrLzrybhbcVsH6n1tSOrK5uX1zP9uTczuNXw/ wojuaMkwt9HguhXMwWIalnv/h35ASA8hvr9542rV+wEjXdjDAdkVmAxGMAPvubsdStHgA7Erj8/CO GpGaGV4kz6XyJ9LBGUAg7mFPvKl5JNif7X/i8QOFh9gDebyny6JCz9sGym80VyLl1jWcNr+6wLiwX t57KK7l8lmeX9dWYu2zQHfs+ebuQsbZvzo23w/XwrNXAgkvftvaXwRUKV+F/kB+Ugxre9y6OeSprv O+D288qOydkR8Gt2Z4HeymHhtHyhRZ3ualVDA==; Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:33144 helo=floss) by sanpietro.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kjAaj-0005yd-Gg for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 00:29:25 +0000 From: Karl Fogel To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: unarchive 12507 Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 18:29:24 -0600 Message-ID: <87eekdt38b.fsf@red-bean.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Karl Fogel Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) unarchive 12507 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 28 19:43:35 2020 Received: (at 12507-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Nov 2020 00:43:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49369 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kjAoR-0002KJ-39 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Nov 2020 19:43:35 -0500 Received: from newsp.red-bean.com ([45.79.25.59]:41944 helo=sanpietro.red-bean.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kjAoN-0002Jd-AR for 12507-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Nov 2020 19:43:32 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=red-bean.com; s=202005newsp; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:Reply-To:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=Je/vZaZHWfU6xUAJvCisvOB9edsdEKRk8HQHeAg1BS8=; t=1606610611; x=1607820211; b=Gf+fA8aaEd7SfK1vfo+dYbzkf0SFuAhT8svK8m74FkUsdUbGZvbji8op3eSlI20Zvm00ZXQlgc Hmmb0b43rN7d1pePzMR7HtzEREsUNncvgFNGUlM7wQkw/iTz5UoLT+fGJs84UkdJ3ApMq/A/aUVAC 8uBv0dYYPcktmF2tQmSKZHdDnNOL4xdweQ4SKhy0se4fr0uSW5hipFnoq9/bcaBE7FtGZdnDeQA0Z UfcZwosC8rwBw/tMIehrCx8j3YNbow2PMkXqLtPFGi5WS0Sr4HwlThnim00wd0+X1Sn+pgWdV2A4l uP37Y0dt870Isw+V3q8M3M8mRf7CXxvGAMthg==; Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:33114 helo=floss) by sanpietro.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kjAZb-0005xs-Og; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 00:28:15 +0000 From: Karl Fogel To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist References: <87bogubqjy.fsf@gnu.org> <873925ebpd.fsf@gnu.org> <87363ff7qp.fsf@gnus.org> <11ee80e5-6d98-4a1f-93c8-babb6da003f3@default> <87r1qxrgs1.fsf@gnus.org> <87v9g52dvz.fsf@red-bean.com> <875z7x889d.fsf@red-bean.com> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 18:28:14 -0600 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 29 Sep 2020 08:45:17 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87im9pt3a9.fsf@red-bean.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507-done Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Chong Yidong , 12507-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Karl Fogel Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Okay, this is done now: | commit 17fa17be3d93fc10f6ca91d738d5056b1b9f1f1e | Author: Karl Fogel | AuthorDate: Sat Nov 28 18:17:46 2020 -0600 | | Save bookmarks by using `write-file' (bug#12507) | | Go back to using `write-file' to save bookmarks, instead of using | `write-region'. This means numbered backups of the bookmark file may | get made again, depending on the value of `bookmark-version-control'. | | Thanks especially to Drew Adams and Eli Zaretskii for their | persistence in tracking down information relevant to this change. I committed it on the 'emacs-27' branch. That seemed like the right place for a small and safe change like this (in addition to running 'make check', I tested it manually to make sure it has the effects we expected). Although there's been a fair amount of activity in bookmark.el on 'master' recently (e.g., Stefan Kangas's changes to base `bookmark-bmenu-mode' on `tabulated-list-mode', for bug #39293), my commit does not conflict with any of that activity, so there should be no problem when 'emacs-27' is next automerged to 'master'. Closing bug #12507 with this message. Best regards, -Karl On 29 Sep 2020, Drew Adams wrote: >> >What's wrong with the obvious, simple solution to the >> >real, recognized problem of no backups for bookmark >> >files: use `write-file'? That's the first question >> >to ask and answer, no? >> >> I can't think of any reason now. I have a vague memory that there *was* a >> specific reason, but if there was, I failed to document adequately at the >> time and have been unable to recover it now. >> >> Eli helpfully linked to Richard's message >> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs- >> devel/2005- >> 05/msg01376.html__;!!GqivPVa7Brio!OesHeMbHNKqFeUCyyW2WJ0UeXBZjSXngBYlvA1Q5G9F >> zXXgAa30g7LGrcwolObMB$ ), in which Richard points out that if bookmark visits >> the file anyway when reading, then there's nothing to be gained (from the >> perspective of saveplace.el interference) from avoiding visiting it when >> writing. >> >> And `bookmark-load' *does* visit the file when reading, so I'm leaning toward >> just taking your suggestion and reverting to `write-file' -- but this time >> leaving better historical breadcrumbs (in comments and/or log messages) in >> case my vaguely-remembered bug turns out to be real and reappears. >> >> I will do this as soon as I have time to focus on it and make sure I don't >> make a silly blunder; that may be several days. > >Thanks for looking into this, Karl. (No hurry.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 28 20:07:47 2020 Received: (at 12507-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Nov 2020 01:07:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49398 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kjBBq-00060G-Ld for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Nov 2020 20:07:46 -0500 Received: from newsp.red-bean.com ([45.79.25.59]:42140 helo=sanpietro.red-bean.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kjBBp-000605-EZ for 12507-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Nov 2020 20:07:46 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=red-bean.com; s=202005newsp; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: Reply-To:Subject:To:From:Sender:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:In-Reply-To:References; bh=Je/vZaZHWfU6xUAJvCisvOB9edsdEKRk8HQHeAg1BS8=; t=1606612065; x=1607821665; b=afRkLBUCNAH33dG1jAUF1G7+nm7XII6fp0KJsUfKCO1Gn7OEQZQSVcjQIP+04bQMLXQWlXbrY7 jWrz2Jcbz+BnbOStIKvjy0dYYJRbaHocOq1N2UoUtyPdSH8uUTFC+QgeoFOP5oL/oQf6CvJkHJUGn PAxhVbc/93dJY2vAmbUSJOyK8aoYWOl/Uxd392FIFzm8oQ1+faHUVH+VfKUfhV43J3+1VsdpG3wn2 5tPJcolfXNitSLiB7sUMWjZbUTX13KK05LdrqDjl7kVHclRHNlNMLM6/ENe8dGHDFnfaxeU0SVQKg NLlTX/sj3lvn0GiyCKjOWv6i7I8wfPYb4BoWw==; Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:33682 helo=floss) by sanpietro.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kjBBo-0006xm-Id for 12507-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 01:07:44 +0000 From: Karl Fogel To: 12507-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#12507: [debbugs-tracker] Processed: severity 12507 wishlist Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 19:07:43 -0600 Message-ID: <874kl9t1gg.fsf@red-bean.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12507-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Karl Fogel Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Okay, this is done now: | commit 17fa17be3d93fc10f6ca91d738d5056b1b9f1f1e | Author: Karl Fogel | AuthorDate: Sat Nov 28 18:17:46 2020 -0600 | | Save bookmarks by using `write-file' (bug#12507) | | Go back to using `write-file' to save bookmarks, instead of using | `write-region'. This means numbered backups of the bookmark file may | get made again, depending on the value of `bookmark-version-control'. | | Thanks especially to Drew Adams and Eli Zaretskii for their | persistence in tracking down information relevant to this change. I committed it on the 'emacs-27' branch. That seemed like the right place for a small and safe change like this (in addition to running 'make check', I tested it manually to make sure it has the effects we expected). Although there's been a fair amount of activity in bookmark.el on 'master' recently (e.g., Stefan Kangas's changes to base `bookmark-bmenu-mode' on `tabulated-list-mode', for bug #39293), my commit does not conflict with any of that activity, so there should be no problem when 'emacs-27' is next automerged to 'master'. Closing bug #12507 with this message. Best regards, -Karl On 29 Sep 2020, Drew Adams wrote: >> >What's wrong with the obvious, simple solution to the >> >real, recognized problem of no backups for bookmark >> >files: use `write-file'? That's the first question >> >to ask and answer, no? >> >> I can't think of any reason now. I have a vague memory that there *was* a >> specific reason, but if there was, I failed to document adequately at the >> time and have been unable to recover it now. >> >> Eli helpfully linked to Richard's message >> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs- >> devel/2005- >> 05/msg01376.html__;!!GqivPVa7Brio!OesHeMbHNKqFeUCyyW2WJ0UeXBZjSXngBYlvA1Q5G9F >> zXXgAa30g7LGrcwolObMB$ ), in which Richard points out that if bookmark visits >> the file anyway when reading, then there's nothing to be gained (from the >> perspective of saveplace.el interference) from avoiding visiting it when >> writing. >> >> And `bookmark-load' *does* visit the file when reading, so I'm leaning toward >> just taking your suggestion and reverting to `write-file' -- but this time >> leaving better historical breadcrumbs (in comments and/or log messages) in >> case my vaguely-remembered bug turns out to be real and reappears. >> >> I will do this as soon as I have time to focus on it and make sure I don't >> make a silly blunder; that may be several days. > >Thanks for looking into this, Karl. (No hurry.) From unknown Sat Jun 21 03:16:48 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 12:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator