From unknown Sat Jun 14 19:37:44 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#12311: 24.1.50; z in special-mode-map Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 14:43:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 12311 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 12311@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.134633778031851 (code B ref -1); Thu, 30 Aug 2012 14:43:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2012 14:43:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58132 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T75xU-0008Hf-2V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:43:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:32915) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T75xO-0008HU-86 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:42:56 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T75wE-0007lH-Ry for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:41:44 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI, RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:54919) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T75wE-0007lD-Ol for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:41:42 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35949) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T75w4-0007eL-KS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:41:42 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T75vv-0007ei-QG for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:41:32 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:55294) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T75vv-0007eR-M7 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:41:23 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T75vu-00024G-En; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:41:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:41:22 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 208.118.235.17 X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) I just discovered why some of the Dired buffers I always keep occasionally disappear. It is because the binding of z in special-mode-map makes it so easy to kill them. I just got rid of that binding in my .emacs, but I think that binding is a bad idea. Not all the buffers in special modes are things people don't mind deleting, and this key can cause annoyance if typed by accident. In GNU Emacs 24.1.50.1 (mips64el-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.12.12) of 2012-07-31 on chiefs-gnewsense Bzr revision: 109352 rgm@gnu.org-20120801021420-vmw6vrsr9w2xgkxf Configured using: `configure 'CFLAGS=-g -O0' '--with-gif=no' '--with-tiff=no'' Important settings: value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8 locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix default enable-multibyte-characters: t Major mode: Emacs-Lisp Minor modes in effect: shell-dirtrack-mode: t gpm-mouse-mode: t tooltip-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t menu-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t line-number-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t abbrev-mode: t Recent input: RET g z C-x b o u t g TAB RET C-g C-h l C-x b o u t g TAB C-g C-x d o u t g TAB RET C-h c z C-h f d i r e d - m o r e DEL DEL d e RET C-x o TAB RET C-s k i l l - t h C-s C-a C-x b . e m a c s RET C-x k RET C-x C-f . e m a c s RET C-x C-v ESC DEL ESC DEL ESC DEL ESC DEL RET C-s k i l l - t h ESC < C-x 1 C-s k i l l - t h C-x b RET ESC < C-s C-s ESC x g r e p RET k i l l - t h i s - b u f f e r RET ESC x g r e p RET ESC p SPC * . e l RET C-x o C-u C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-u C-v C-u C-v C-x 1 C-u C-n C-n C-n C-n RET C-x 1 C-a C-u C-p C-u C-p C-p C-p C-p ESC f C-f C-@ C-e ESC w C-x b . e m a c s RET ESC > RET ( d e f n e DEL DEL i n e 0 k DEL DEL - k e y SPC C-y C-x 4 b RET C-a C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-x o SPC " z " SPC n i l ESC DEL u n d e f i n e d ) ESC b ' ESC C-x C-x C-s ESC x r e p o r t SPC e m a s SPC DEL c s SPC b u g RET Recent messages: Mark set Mark saved where search started Mark set Grep finished with no matches found Grep finished (matches found) Mark set [4 times] undefined Saving file /home/rms/.emacs... Wrote /home/rms/.emacs Scanning for dabbrevs...done Load-path shadows: None found. Features: (ispell byte-opt bytecomp byte-compile cconv macroexp rmailsum compare-w novice doc-view image-mode arc-mode archive-mode jka-compr bookmark pp shadow emacsbug edmacro kmacro vc-bzr find-func help-fns apropos ind-util tabify man parse-time vc-cvs sgml-mode etags dired-aux cal-china lunar solar cal-dst cal-bahai cal-islam cal-hebrew holidays hol-loaddefs cal-move cal-menu calendar cal-loaddefs epa-mail epa derived epg epg-config rmailout rlogin dabbrev misearch multi-isearch quail help-mode qp mule-util shell pcomplete grep compile comint ansi-color ring mailalias rmailmm message sendmail format-spec rfc822 mml easymenu mml-sec mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader mail-parse rfc2231 dired t-mouse time-date rmailedit rmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils paren cus-start cus-load tooltip ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel x-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list newcomment lisp-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev minibuffer loaddefs button faces cus-face files text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote make-network-process dbusbind dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs) -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call From unknown Sat Jun 14 19:37:44 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#12311: 24.1.50; z in special-mode-map Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:42:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 12311 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: , <12311@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 12311-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B12311.13463413154756 (code B ref 12311); Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:42:02 +0000 Received: (at 12311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2012 15:41:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58209 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T76sU-0001Ee-7w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:41:54 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:24763) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T76sR-0001EV-44 for 12311@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:41:51 -0400 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q7UFedCA021951 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:40:39 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q7UFecBD004098 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:40:38 GMT Received: from abhmt111.oracle.com (abhmt111.oracle.com [141.146.116.63]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q7UFebAM030787; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:40:37 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.248) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 08:40:37 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 08:40:36 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Ac2GvaZD0HIEYgo2Qmys/AE5RHBTngABCqbQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > I just discovered why some of the Dired buffers I always keep > occasionally disappear. It is because the binding of z in > special-mode-map makes it so easy to kill them. > > I just got rid of that binding in my .emacs, but I think that binding > is a bad idea. Not all the buffers in special modes are things people > don't mind deleting, and this key can cause annoyance if typed by > accident. +1 --- FWIW, I have long bound `z' to `diredp-compress-this-file', which is just a this-file version of `Z' (`dired-do-compress'). (defun diredp-compress-this-file () "In Dired, compress or uncompress the file on the cursor line." (interactive) (dired-do-compress 1)) --- Why do we even bother to have `dired-mode-map' inherit from `special-mode-map'? These are the only keys from `special-mode-map' that Dired does not already override: - and 0-9 negative-argument and digit-argument ? and h describe-mode g revert-buffer q quit-window z kill-this-buffer (That and the fact that `s-m-m' uses `suppress-keymap'.) And when you consider that for `g' Dired defines its own `revert-function', there is not a lot that is really taken from `s-m-m'. Dired overrides `SPC', `DEL', `>', and `<'. And `h' could also be overridden to serve a Dired purpose in the future (`h' just duplicates `?'). We might as well just define the keys we want directly in `dired-mode-map' and call `suppress-keymap' there. Inheritance is useful if it really saves (factors out) something significant, or if we want to be able to change something in one place and have that affect other places. The tradeoff is the extra coupling/dependency - someone changing `s-m-m' needs to think carefully about how that change might affect each mode that inherits from it. In the case of Dired, inheritance of `s-m-m' doesn't offer much, IMHO. From unknown Sat Jun 14 19:37:44 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#12311: 24.1.50; z in special-mode-map Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:56:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 12311 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: rms@gnu.org Cc: 12311@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 12311-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B12311.13463421195980 (code B ref 12311); Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:56:02 +0000 Received: (at 12311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2012 15:55:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58256 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T775S-0001YP-T0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:55:19 -0400 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.182]:52321) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T775Q-0001YG-Tn for 12311@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:55:17 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ai0FAG6Zu09FxKEe/2dsb2JhbABEsEiDSYEIghUBAQQBViMFCws0EhQYDYhABboJjSaDHgOjM4FYgwU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,637,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="197088500" Received: from 69-196-161-30.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.161.30]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP/TLS/ADH-AES256-SHA; 30 Aug 2012 11:54:05 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id A791059407; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:54:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:54:05 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:41:22 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) > I just got rid of that binding in my .emacs, but I think that binding > is a bad idea. Not all the buffers in special modes are things people > don't mind deleting, and this key can cause annoyance if typed by > accident. Feel free to remove it in the trunk, yes. Stefan From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 30 15:28:42 2012 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2012 19:28:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58439 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T7APy-0007EJ-8C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:28:42 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:52927) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T7APw-0007EC-Nl for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:28:40 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T7AOn-0007SS-82 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:27:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:27:29 -0400 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 12311 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) close 12311 24.3 From unknown Sat Jun 14 19:37:44 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#12311: 24.1.50; z in special-mode-map Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 23:28:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 12311 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Monnier Cc: 12311@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 12311-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B12311.134636926725632 (code B ref 12311); Thu, 30 Aug 2012 23:28:02 +0000 Received: (at 12311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2012 23:27:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58613 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T7E9L-0006fN-A2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:27:47 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:55998) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T7E9J-0006fF-Qr for 12311@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:27:46 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T7E89-0001BX-2I; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:26:33 -0400 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 19:26:33 -0400 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman In-reply-to: (message from Stefan Monnier on Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:54:05 -0400) References: X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) I got rid of that binding. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call From unknown Sat Jun 14 19:37:44 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#12311: (special-mode-map): Delete binding for `z'. Resent-From: Sam Steingold Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 05:22:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 12311 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 12311@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: 12311@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 12311-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B12311.134656328827538 (code B ref 12311); Sun, 02 Sep 2012 05:22:02 +0000 Received: (at 12311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2012 05:21:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33691 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T82cg-0007A5-Pm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2012 01:21:28 -0400 Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com ([209.85.160.44]:49013) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T82ce-00079x-9r for 12311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2012 01:21:26 -0400 Received: by pbbrr4 with SMTP id rr4so6647073pbb.3 for <12311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 01 Sep 2012 22:19:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:newsgroups:to:cc:subject:organization:references :user-agent:mail-followup-to:return-receipt-to:reply-to :x-attribution:x-disclaimer:date:message-id:cancel-lock:in-reply-to :mime-version:content-type:posted-to; bh=fsRa+GWm9I9npu++8haqt8IlLP+a4tVWcn4Y+CI5jQI=; b=INdp5ZdXFmHBHFTZ6xnBQ0+SUbLOGLRSx9GhN0bmMUwKauN8cLoJ75o3twQN6NXJMX oNHnJjlq2Gog5Avr2NUxvdC/6NFMabRUuN1YcYRhZh5gxpea0SjV+pfMQZhhFClXRDWD cKhvlD7dIQHMvK7T3agjIAiS7ohexnRaETV93G4VUD1WEDQCRNaCGDLUvgAw9GOz6Z4Q YcYBuM75HzPjjx3WNZGiaNmd1l+8RyO2j4Tmyq/oKDDqJTwPYDusNbQtBrLgNhYFJUah j/9XhawDwCYEDxiVpjVB0gKzIijnZTH4YUGLdxqzDfeIp0pOdKw3zU0yCqytkPq5vI0h vkCA== Received: by 10.68.204.169 with SMTP id kz9mr901693pbc.39.1346563198518; Sat, 01 Sep 2012 22:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from t520sds (ool-43501bc4.dyn.optonline.net. [67.80.27.196]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id to6sm7054494pbc.12.2012.09.01.22.19.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 01 Sep 2012 22:19:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Steingold Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Organization: disorganization References: <87oblp2nfr.fsf@gnu.org> <363C856A8EDB4545897D760AD952E828@us.oracle.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) Mail-Followup-To: 12311@debbugs.gnu.org X-Attribution: Sam X-Disclaimer: You should not expect anyone to agree with me. Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 01:19:52 -0400 Message-ID: <87fw712e87.fsf@gnu.org> Cancel-Lock: sha1:ixE/3IWciru2xKhmNZ4fOKEdm+U= In-Reply-To: <363C856A8EDB4545897D760AD952E828@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 1 Sep 2012 19:38:28 -0700") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Posted-To: gmane.emacs.devel X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to gmane.emacs.devel as well. > * Drew Adams [2012-09-01 19:38:28 -0700]: > >> I use this all the time in buffers like *Help*, > > Why bother to kill *Help*? Why do that rather than `q'? because 'q' will eventually start showing old *Help* buffers. because 'q' deletes the window which I want to keep. >> *Dired* &c. What am I supposed to use instead? C-u q? > > Sure, why not? Or `q' if you don't need to kill it. because C-u q is two keystrokes; quite often I keep hitting 'z' until I get to a buffer where z self-inserts. > Or `C-x v' if you want to replace it. C-x v is the vc prefix for me. > You want to kill Dired but you don't want to use `C-u q'. > OK, so bind `z' to killing once again if you want to. the question is whether this is a generally useful binding. I think it is. > Or is it about other special-mode buffers? That's the useful question, to me. > I would say forget about *Help* (which doesn't need to be killed) and Dired > (which you sometimes don't want to kill). > > But are there special-mode buffers where `z' killing the buffer is really > useful? If so, then maybe the fix was too heavy-handed. I don't think special-mode buffers are "precious" - they are easily restored, so killing them accidentally should not be a problem. Apparently others disagree. >> How is a ding more valuable than a useful behavior? > > Killing the buffer is not the only or the most useful behavior `z' > could have in Dired. Dired is a rich mode with lots of keys already > taken and with plenty of commands that could be bound to keys. So bind it in dired mode. The change affects all the other special modes! -- Sam Steingold (http://sds.podval.org/) on Ubuntu 12.04 (precise) X 11.0.11103000 http://www.childpsy.net/ http://dhimmi.com http://truepeace.org http://think-israel.org http://pmw.org.il http://mideasttruth.com Do the arithmetic or be doomed to talk nonsense. --John McCarthy From unknown Sat Jun 14 19:37:44 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#12311: (special-mode-map): Delete binding for `z'. Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 13:42:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 12311 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: <12311@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 12311-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B12311.13465932679494 (code B ref 12311); Sun, 02 Sep 2012 13:42:02 +0000 Received: (at 12311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2012 13:41:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34115 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T8AQF-0002T4-0V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2012 09:41:07 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:37457) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T8AQC-0002Sw-FG for 12311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2012 09:41:05 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q82DdZuS032129 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for <12311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 2 Sep 2012 13:39:36 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q82DdZtZ024169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <12311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 2 Sep 2012 13:39:35 GMT Received: from abhmt113.oracle.com (abhmt113.oracle.com [141.146.116.65]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q82DdYfd027296 for <12311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 2 Sep 2012 08:39:34 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/71.202.147.44) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 02 Sep 2012 06:39:34 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" References: <87oblp2nfr.fsf@gnu.org><363C856A8EDB4545897D760AD952E828@us.oracle.com> <87fw712e87.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 06:39:24 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87fw712e87.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: Ac2IypngljzOZwJ7RJe6hTe/FROkLwARMhLQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -7.1 (-------) > > Or `C-x v' if you want to replace it. > > C-x v is the vc prefix for me. I meant C-x C-v. > > But are there special-mode buffers where `z' killing the > > buffer is really useful? If so, then maybe the fix was > > too heavy-handed. > > I don't think special-mode buffers are "precious" - they are easily > restored, so killing them accidentally should not be a problem. > Apparently others disagree. I don't necessarily disagree, for one. Richard's point was that not all special-mode buffers are non-precious. Your point is that not all special-mode buffers are precious. My point was about Dired (only): to not have Dired inherit from special-mode-map. The problem was expressed in terms of Dired mode. But the fix was to special-mode-map. So far, the only special-mode buffers mentioned have been *Help* and Dired. To me, *Help* is far from precious and Dired is one where I agree with Richard that you don't want to be accidentally killing the buffer. I can't speak to what is most appropriate for special mode in general. My point was about Dired, where I agree with Richard about the annoyance/problem, but I don't agree about the wider-ranging fix. > > Killing the buffer is not the only or the most useful behavior `z' > > could have in Dired. Dired is a rich mode with lots of keys already > > taken and with plenty of commands that could be bound to keys. > > So bind it in dired mode. The change affects all the other > special modes! That is what I proposed: separate Dired from special-mode. From unknown Sat Jun 14 19:37:44 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#12311: (special-mode-map): Delete binding for `z'. Resent-From: Chong Yidong Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 08:11:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 12311 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 12311@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 12311-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B12311.134665985419771 (code B ref 12311); Mon, 03 Sep 2012 08:11:01 +0000 Received: (at 12311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Sep 2012 08:10:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35551 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T8RkD-00058p-VS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 Sep 2012 04:10:54 -0400 Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com ([209.85.160.44]:39079) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T8RkA-00058h-UV for 12311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 Sep 2012 04:10:51 -0400 Received: by pbbrr4 with SMTP id rr4so7629625pbb.3 for <12311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 03 Sep 2012 01:09:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=82PIhoQv4XfiUp5W1MpQd8Q+fDfGjjt9NWRDLDPjkas=; b=uLRhLiGBLYHsfpR8h3UtY5pj0y0xmcWS2lenOZzvp/8FTemul+nieRgMz5Gm3SSvr6 6Dx6LdUs5gk0megcCoSR0CDkeamouSYkQMSNCdk6odoo5Tzis20maiYxeaPclZuxccB+ fheHZuZpGHn//sOfxmPplk52LSnHQD9zUIXUUx+zP6CdIYMKcmMlcysDPMKvAaD9DUwx Xeh/qVn61BiB6QBO8FjAhOj3JvW6K17YsIImVIOibHZ5EGHQB09/bivWO2FOzRpoWqSs 2E7WttD+/Py8jF4yVrqFmwx7REG2PF3hy7OZoOjrwpe3TZWg9IrUeuP/TN019XSQFxKD 18Lg== Received: by 10.68.220.104 with SMTP id pv8mr35893697pbc.119.1346659758836; Mon, 03 Sep 2012 01:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ulysses ([155.69.16.255]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id sv8sm3362986pbc.7.2012.09.03.01.09.15 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 03 Sep 2012 01:09:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Chong Yidong References: <87oblp2nfr.fsf@gnu.org> <363C856A8EDB4545897D760AD952E828@us.oracle.com> <87fw712e87.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 16:09:12 +0800 In-Reply-To: <87fw712e87.fsf@gnu.org> (Sam Steingold's message of "Sun, 02 Sep 2012 01:19:52 -0400") Message-ID: <87oblny1cn.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Sam Steingold writes: > because 'q' will eventually start showing old *Help* buffers. > because 'q' deletes the window which I want to keep. The first point seems irrelevant; `q' should only show old buffers if there is nothing better to show. As for the second, we could add a defcustom to prevent `quit-window' from deleting windows; would that be suitable for your usage? > I don't think special-mode buffers are "precious" - they are easily > restored, so killing them accidentally should not be a problem. > Apparently others disagree. One example of a special buffer which may be annoying to accidentally delete is a *Packages* buffer, whose contents are fetched over a network. Similarly with a non-DVCS VC-Dir buffer. But these are personal value judgements, a.k.a. bikeshedding. There are two simple solutions: (define-key special-mode-map "z" ...) or C-x k RET Emacs should strive to present a consistent user interface, so it's good for special buffers to share as many keybindings as possible, when it comes to basic operations like dismissal. That's why we've worked hard to make these buffers use `q' (`quit-window'). In that context, it's unacceptable to provide `z' for buffer-killing in some special buffers but not others, for such a fuzzy reason as "precious" vs "non-precious".