From unknown Fri Aug 15 02:02:23 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#12233 <12233@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#12233 <12233@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 24.1.50; Please index "sexp" in Elisp manual Reply-To: bug#12233 <12233@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 09:02:23 +0000 retitle 12233 24.1.50; Please index "sexp" in Elisp manual reassign 12233 emacs submitter 12233 "Drew Adams" severity 12233 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 19 13:21:24 2012 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Aug 2012 17:21:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38748 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T39Bk-0003nu-9c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:21:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:41702) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T39Bh-0003nm-7G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:21:22 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T39BX-0008I6-Jf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:21:12 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:42646) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T39BX-0008I2-GC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:21:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:60739) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T39BW-0006My-Kn for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:21:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T39BT-0008Hq-8K for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:21:10 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:47386) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T39BT-0008Hl-2c for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:21:07 -0400 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q7JHL4ca019481 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:21:05 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q7JHL3Tl007692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:21:03 GMT Received: from abhmt117.oracle.com (abhmt117.oracle.com [141.146.116.69]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q7JHL3BK000706 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 12:21:03 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.171.244) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:21:02 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 24.1.50; Please index "sexp" in Elisp manual Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:20:48 -0700 Message-ID: <6D95A452C25043A0B843F7EA167C6AE3@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Ac1+LvnCqx41WCY5RDKm4remtUIl+A== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 208.118.235.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.1 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.1 (------) 1. The concept "sexp" is not indexed as such in the Elisp manual. Please add an index entry for "sexp", which targets node `Intro Eval'. 2. I find it misleading that that node, in introducing the terms "S-expression" and "sexp", also says: "but we generally do not use this terminology in this manual." The term "sexp" is used throughout Emacs Lisp, including in the names and doc strings of multiple functions. If you really choose to de-emphasize its use in explanations in the manual, fine. But don't point that out, at least using such language, because it can easily give the impression that Emacs Lisp does not use the term "sexp", which is plain wrong. It is also not even true that "we generally do not use this terminology in this manual." Just search for "sexp" and you will see. There are two occurrences of "sexp" in the main menu alone! There are 89 occurrences of "sexp" in the manual (as well there should be). In GNU Emacs 24.1.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2012-08-13 on MARVIN Bzr revision: 109584 monnier@iro.umontreal.ca-20120813141247-76irjqslrfncn30u Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 Configured using: `configure --with-gcc (4.6) --no-opt --enable-checking --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/src -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libpng-dev_1.4.3-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/zlib-dev_1.2.5-2/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-3.0.9/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libiconv-1.13.1-1-dev/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libxml2-2.7.8/include/libxml2' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 19 14:51:47 2012 Received: (at 12233) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Aug 2012 18:51:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38793 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T3AbD-0005nX-6b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 14:51:47 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:25948) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T3AbA-0005nO-Cz for 12233@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 14:51:45 -0400 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q7JIpXBE027248 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for <12233@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:51:34 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q7JIpX1N013956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <12233@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:51:33 GMT Received: from abhmt103.oracle.com (abhmt103.oracle.com [141.146.116.55]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q7JIpXqP003197 for <12233@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:51:33 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.171.244) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:51:32 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: <12233@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <6D95A452C25043A0B843F7EA167C6AE3@us.oracle.com> Subject: RE: bug#12233: 24.1.50; Please index "sexp" in Elisp manual Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:51:18 -0700 Message-ID: <83A51CBF184E4F8E9DEDF919DA98C018@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <6D95A452C25043A0B843F7EA167C6AE3@us.oracle.com> Thread-Index: Ac1+LvnCqx41WCY5RDKm4remtUIl+AAAdjHg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12233 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) > 1. The concept "sexp" is not indexed as such in the Elisp manual. > Please add an index entry for "sexp", which targets node `Intro > Eval'. Actually, perhaps node `Simple Types' is more appropriate. Or perhaps both nodes should be targeted. In `Simple Types' we see that a sexp is not just a syntactic expression (e.g. buffer/program text), but it is "any _Lisp object_ that can be printed and read back." This is important and not necessarily generally understood, particularly by those new to Lisp. "Sexp" _is_ sometimes, as in `backward-sexp', used also to refer to a textual expression in a program (e.g. buffer text). This is a terminological shortcut, as is `up-list' etc. - such functions move point over program text that _represents_ a sexp, a list, etc. Even Wikipedia is a bit confusing on this point, saying that "Lisp uses S-expressions as an external representation for data and code. S-expressions can be read with the primitive Lisp function READ." As opposed to sexps _being_ Lisp objects. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity] And it says that "sexps... are a _notation_ for nested list (tree-structured) data...". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expressions As opposed to _being_ such data/programs. But Wikipedia does also point out that sexps can be both: it speaks of "data s-expressions" and "source code s-expressions". It says that Lisp, unlike some other languages, "uses [sexps] for source code as well as data". And Wikipedia is clearer wrt "symbol" - it makes clear that a symbol is a sexp, and it says, "When Lisp reads data that contains textual represented symbols, existing symbols are referenced." Which distinguishes symbols as textual representation of symbols as Lisp objects. Because of this double usage, it is important to make it clear that `sexp' does have the main meaning as being a Lisp object, just like a number, list, or string. It is all the more important because its name calls out "expression", which is sometimes understood as program text. Another place where it should be made clear that "sexp" refers to a Lisp object and not program source text is for a function such as `sexp-at-point'. The doc string says only this: "Return the sexp at point, or nil if none is found." But that just begs the question. The doc string should explicitly point out that the buffer text at point is _read_, producing a Lisp object, which is what is returned. E.g. if the sexp at point is (foo bar), then the return value satisfies `listp', not `stringp'. [Note, Common Lisp avoids the terms "sexp" and "S-expression". "Sexp" and "symbolic expression" do not appear at all in "Common Lisp The Language 2". "S-expression" appears there only in two places (two pages out of ~1100): (1) when describing ~S for function `format', (2) when discussing the implementation of macro `backquote', where the term is used to refer to expressions as Lisp objects. And it uses the term "expression" in both senses (textual expression to be parsed/read and Lisp object), but perhaps more often in the sense of Lisp object. CTTL2 also uses "form", which it defines as "a data object meant to be evaluated as a program to produce one or more values (which are also data objects). One may request evaluation of any data object, but only certain ones are meaningful. For instance, symbols and lists are meaningful forms, while arrays normally are not... Meaningful forms may be divided into three categories: self-evaluating forms, such as numbers; symbols, which stand for variables; and lists."] From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 07 06:37:45 2012 Received: (at 12233) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Sep 2012 10:37:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45535 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T9vwM-0005mg-VA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2012 06:37:44 -0400 Received: from mail-iy0-f172.google.com ([209.85.210.172]:46527) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T9vwJ-0005mY-Pq for 12233@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2012 06:37:34 -0400 Received: by iabz21 with SMTP id z21so3012947iab.3 for <12233@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 07 Sep 2012 03:37:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=I9h+bvcwOCl6A5xanOeR4xsKQKU9HZfcx75EyDV2ADc=; b=lfTqCk7CrhY74TU0yzlgCCUe6fHAevHqt/ncL/E+PG8jEsiFb7vbLu93H6gSzGaCsg iGxH1O6IgTGfq28KXyH0M2ICQWtA4uDmevH6TOqdjuGU72J1Y0NOxIVz3KfuDUykD5TI 9xSkD6gxyh6iER/I/OP+tuGVnbptqV//VfjO17QZAsJW9O3igILNHxpYxlftRWrQm2ML GwEySXvPzA8sEMjr70x/PI5yMLxPHXls/YtfHeqAiQpeswS591c4xU2TJoCjAvI3MUXq JTkb4em8pYt/aRB6yLGJyYknB/slO22WUJNLYm5M6sMO4BbjVY5enC6c+y5ZfjdLjE6U LAKg== Received: by 10.50.16.202 with SMTP id i10mr27709035igd.19.1347014234142; Fri, 07 Sep 2012 03:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ulysses ([155.69.18.183]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ch4sm7654256igb.2.2012.09.07.03.37.10 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 07 Sep 2012 03:37:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Chong Yidong To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#12233: 24.1.50; Please index "sexp" in Elisp manual References: <6D95A452C25043A0B843F7EA167C6AE3@us.oracle.com> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 18:37:08 +0800 In-Reply-To: <6D95A452C25043A0B843F7EA167C6AE3@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:20:48 -0700") Message-ID: <87wr06yv8r.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 12233 Cc: 12233@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Done in trunk, thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 07 06:37:51 2012 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Sep 2012 10:37:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45538 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T9vwc-0005nA-PV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2012 06:37:51 -0400 Received: from mail-ie0-f172.google.com ([209.85.223.172]:65090) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T9vwa-0005n1-Cq for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2012 06:37:49 -0400 Received: by ieak13 with SMTP id k13so4737805iea.3 for ; Fri, 07 Sep 2012 03:37:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=LZ/0EhkkXL39o3IYNMePyOu3vm+HFEzA+NkrwriTbfk=; b=xlqALKl312qPJxUaeycUS6gPWBg+XRgmSgmswGYp91XkNPSfZCTkeHWkZZY6bSfSJz CzU1+qcY1fPmv/nrNmVGnQejJzd3lpoohI9dtOYSHBLPDLWA7B+f/7quwZLkmoWhTeWq hexPEsBtTEnKngBzFMl+i8tmlgmn9NUtlR+9C2VFvNbpxJfV4TOUFNmTNkyUpWLycBaH pK1QIbh2TZjjPvze1jzxPBLaQ4C2YYSdOJ8rTTwjZQ42ygOID99kgij+M69O9o4gSBVT P3TsJ/9/gXKQhvyYTjTtf9k6JaoiORpz0HoNg6Zee4iseewyjPxe1+o0ied09Rs7qkjU oAlg== Received: by 10.50.189.134 with SMTP id gi6mr27701269igc.55.1347014249667; Fri, 07 Sep 2012 03:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ulysses ([155.69.18.183]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xm2sm12092001igb.3.2012.09.07.03.37.27 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 07 Sep 2012 03:37:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Chong Yidong To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: close 12233 Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 18:37:24 +0800 Message-ID: <87pq5yqftn.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) close 12233 thanks From unknown Fri Aug 15 02:02:23 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 11:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator