From unknown Fri Sep 05 11:00:17 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#11440: E-Lisp manual - customization Resent-From: Andrew Kurn Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 01:57:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 11440 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 11440@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.13365285935927 (code B ref -1); Wed, 09 May 2012 01:57:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2012 01:56:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42024 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SRw8l-0001XV-LJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 21:56:32 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:38670) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SRw8i-0001XG-Va for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 21:56:30 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SRw6X-00039E-2O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 21:54:14 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:47705) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SRw6W-000399-Ve for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 21:54:12 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:34433) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SRw6V-0000TW-8y for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 21:54:12 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SRw6T-00038p-Cr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 21:54:10 -0400 Received: from pobox.sfu.ca ([142.58.101.28]:45514) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SRw6T-000381-4l for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2012 21:54:09 -0400 Received: from fraser.sfu.ca (fraser.sfu.ca [142.58.101.25]) by pobox.sfu.ca (8.13.6/8.13.5/SFU-6.0G) with ESMTP id q491s4WR025194 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 8 May 2012 18:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kurn@localhost) by fraser.sfu.ca (8.13.8+Sun/8.14.3/SFU-6.0C) id q491s3NG024656 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 8 May 2012 18:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 18:54:03 -0700 From: Andrew Kurn Message-ID: <20120509015403.GD11715@sfu.ca> References: <201205090138.q491caAs023526@pobox.sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201205090138.q491caAs023526@pobox.sfu.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 208.118.235.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) > > (In E-Lisp) I find myself confused by the treatment of Customization and Faces . . . > > I find the chapter in the E-Lisp manual on /Customization/ problematic. It seems > to be directed at the user-level and not programmer-level. > > Ideally, it should start out by saying what a customization is actually before > it ever gets around to defining "Common Keywords" and other ad-hoc machinery. > So, the first paragraph of the chapter should have a careful definition with > links to the thingies that a customization is made of or works on. > > I would like a link to "user options" at least, and one to self-quoting > variables (eg :slant) would help. > > --- > > Please tell me when customization takes place. Faces seem to be > synthesized from customization data magically, in some way beyond > my control. > > > --- > > Similarly, the section /Faces/ in /Display/. > > I would start with /Attribute Functions/, so that the machinery that > does the work is exposed, then /Standard Faces/ and /Face Attributes/ > so that we see what the machinery works on, then /Defining F/, which > is customization, and attempts to insulate programmers from making > mistakes. > > Inserting customization too early makes the exposition confusing, > makes it hard to see what is fundamental. The mistake I made was modifying > the customization properties of faces, rather than the faces themselves. > > (In my present mood, I would remove customization from Emacs completely, > although I can imagine some would be upset. Still, I wonder what its > real value is, how many actually need it and use it.) > > --- > > That's my rant for today, > > Andrew > > From unknown Fri Sep 05 11:00:17 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#11440: E-Lisp manual - customization Resent-From: Chong Yidong Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 05:14:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 11440 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Andrew Kurn Cc: 11440@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 11440-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B11440.134794520530828 (code B ref 11440); Tue, 18 Sep 2012 05:14:02 +0000 Received: (at 11440) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2012 05:13:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40657 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TDq7h-00081B-8l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:13:25 -0400 Received: from mail-ob0-f172.google.com ([209.85.214.172]:47323) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TDq7e-000811-Ef for 11440@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:13:23 -0400 Received: by obbwc20 with SMTP id wc20so9756856obb.3 for <11440@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:12:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=Y7kSn1y39rXiVD4mg/bEfRoV+hsbjfITMTbeyd5fYq8=; b=C4+Pw29i6mUAycQZT0Bz9YLt604p1tsucQIW2wwVCPYTMrdk2YXs0nWP25N6AwXdmi Rcj6D5OiOOmwsTRjCDjfVlzfu8CBZmA74AduxugxTsrkTY0gPqNwP/QaUUR0W8Cqa9aA 1zTbqRqFnjbd0cgL2AFnMWaChZUdKjzkXUW9ZCrqASBgEXcdGk/ufPWGvS+4shyCJaiy iP7iXvuqoV+bMx4hlfL0HrklHbvmfkdX01PUIvMdJ/1Mk4ME3xu6lojSgK79JJzwOeM7 Ql9WIZ6Rr0l+Y5HfFnCfyLFX2ekEURPMy2iCO1qx7f5afmBPO642b+sehjikU2Tc3XTQ Vyrg== Received: by 10.60.154.198 with SMTP id vq6mr14397293oeb.20.1347945123284; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ulysses ([155.69.18.125]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 2sm13307113obi.20.2012.09.17.22.12.00 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:12:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Chong Yidong References: <201205090138.q491caAs023526@pobox.sfu.ca> <20120509015403.GD11715@sfu.ca> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:11:57 +0800 In-Reply-To: <20120509015403.GD11715@sfu.ca> (Andrew Kurn's message of "Tue, 8 May 2012 18:54:03 -0700") Message-ID: <87boh3vrs2.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) Andrew Kurn writes: > I find the chapter in the E-Lisp manual on /Customization/ > problematic. It seems to be directed at the user-level and not > programmer-level. > > Ideally, it should start out by saying what a customization is > > I would like a link to "user options" at least, and one to > self-quoting variables (eg :slant) would help. > > Similarly, the section /Faces/ in /Display/. > ... > I would start with /Attribute Functions/ I've updated the manual to address most of these points. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 18 01:13:37 2012 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2012 05:13:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40660 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TDq7s-00081e-Mm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:13:37 -0400 Received: from mail-ob0-f172.google.com ([209.85.214.172]:47323) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TDq7q-000811-8x for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:13:34 -0400 Received: by mail-ob0-f172.google.com with SMTP id wc20so9756856obb.3 for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:12:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=32FNpEjngBL2IroSO83rJjUQoFn31A1I3YQM6EmIzWg=; b=xkmj9ED9ueFErPv8tJfEoxQtE2CHCH397Mrj0gugM1As2Ji3cRYf08uzYt8SLYEx8Y STnhIQ37rVAmtj+nUgiuk2do4bCUwy9bZDSoHYmu4tdBjm7GRCDMF9O5vRa9MenzIMRL hePNpCle8hNIiqDcpBgQEarZMLL2DzaCYtJZt4xGFxBmI+X7+DqqnvPnzPHjhAuhfz6U NWatnR2explviq5bvlx9jcCTbktU/aG64+p/KG3SfL7u/To+u4dX44mfqnOo2qAC7a3J sigCkomtnv4PCw4uZl2cOaNTZQZY/aIIy54CBp4ZWlyX9/o2a2LqiwMu4dLdQSwYQwSb ra2Q== Received: by 10.182.18.143 with SMTP id w15mr13922570obd.6.1347945136085; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ulysses ([155.69.18.125]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ac10sm13336699obc.7.2012.09.17.22.12.13 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:12:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Chong Yidong To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: close 11440 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:12:11 +0800 Message-ID: <871uhz6hjo.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) close 11440 thanks