GNU bug report logs - #10945
Can't search through help menu.

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 10:07:26 +0000

Hello, Emacs.

With a recent bzr head:

emacs -Q
C-h ?       ; brings up the help menu

I now want to search through this menu for "ChangeLog":

C-x         ; intending C-x o

The menu disappears.  This isn't friendly.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Message #10 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bartosz Duszel <dptdescribe <at> gmail.com>
To: 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 17:43:26 +0200

This one is pretty old but I wonder - is it a bug or not? Should we allow to enter window with help?

Best regards,
Bartosz Duszel

Message #13 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Bartosz Duszel <dptdescribe <at> gmail.com>, 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 08:52:17 -0700 (PDT)

> This one is pretty old but I wonder - is it a bug or not? Should we allow to
> enter window with help?

No idea what this means.  Maybe it's clear to someone else; dunno.

Could you give a recipe to describe what you cannot do that you
would like to do?  Start with what it is that you mean by "help
menu" - do you mean the menu-bar menu `Help'?  If so, what do you
mean by "search through" such a menu?

Message #16 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bartosz Duszel <dptdescribe <at> gmail.com>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 17:54:10 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

> On 4 May 2017, at 17:52, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> wrote:
> 
>> This one is pretty old but I wonder - is it a bug or not? Should we allow to
>> enter window with help?
> 
> No idea what this means.  Maybe it's clear to someone else; dunno.
> 
> Could you give a recipe to describe what you cannot do that you
> would like to do?  Start with what it is that you mean by "help
> menu" - do you mean the menu-bar menu `Help'?  If so, what do you
> mean by "search through" such a menu?

Hmmm… I thought that if reply to this bug number it will somehow present the thread history.

Anyway - here is the bug report:
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=10945 <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=10945>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #19 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Bartosz Duszel <dptdescribe <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 08:57:47 -0700 (PDT)

> Hmmm… I thought that if reply to this bug number it will somehow present
> the thread history.
> 
> Anyway - here is the bug report:
> https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=10945

Very sorry; my bad.  I thought this was a new bug report, and that
your message was the whole bug report.  Perhaps I thought that
because the Subject line didn't say "RE:", for some reason.

Sorry.

Message #22 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Bartosz Duszel <dptdescribe <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 09:05:18 -0700 (PDT)

Wrt the original bug report:

1. You can click mouse-1 in buffer `*Metahelp*' (the buffer you want
to search).

2. I guess we could define a key in the local map (the value of
`helped-map' from `make-help-screen') that would switch to that
buffer.

Message #25 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bartosz Duszel <dptdescribe <at> gmail.com>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 18:59:19 +0200

> On 4 May 2017, at 18:05, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> wrote:
> 
> Wrt the original bug report:
> 
> 1. You can click mouse-1 in buffer `*Metahelp*' (the buffer you want
> to search).
> 
> 2. I guess we could define a key in the local map (the value of
> `helped-map' from `make-help-screen') that would switch to that
> buffer.

No problem, I will try to do that. It shouldn’t be too complicated and I am pretty
new here. :)

Best regards,
Bartosz Duszel

Message #28 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bartosz Duszel <dptdescribe <at> gmail.com>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 20:10:45 +0200

> On 4 May 2017, at 18:59, Bartosz Duszel <dptdescribe <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 4 May 2017, at 18:05, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Wrt the original bug report:
>> 
>> 1. You can click mouse-1 in buffer `*Metahelp*' (the buffer you want
>> to search).
>> 
>> 2. I guess we could define a key in the local map (the value of
>> `helped-map' from `make-help-screen') that would switch to that
>> buffer.
> 
> No problem, I will try to do that. It shouldn’t be too complicated and I am pretty
> new here. :)
> 
> Best regards,
> Bartosz Duszel

After some more thinking I am not sure if this is the best approach.

1. After clicking mouse-1 in buffer `*Metahelp*’ you can easily search in this buffer but
all the mapped keys doesn’t work at this point. You need to look for what you need in the buffer
and run C-h ? once again.

2. Author of the bug highlighted that the current behaviour is not friendly. I am also not sure
if adding another key just for changing the window is a good solution.

At this point I do not know how we should handle this case.

Message #31 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
To: Bartosz Duszel <dptdescribe <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Subject: Re: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Thu, 04 May 2017 22:48:27 -0400

severity 10945 wishlist
quit

Bartosz Duszel <dptdescribe <at> gmail.com> writes:

>>> 1. You can click mouse-1 in buffer `*Metahelp*' (the buffer you want
>>> to search).
>>> 
>>> 2. I guess we could define a key in the local map (the value of
>>> `helped-map' from `make-help-screen') that would switch to that
>>> buffer.
>
> After some more thinking I am not sure if this is the best approach.
>
> 1. After clicking mouse-1 in buffer `*Metahelp*’ you can easily search in this buffer but
> all the mapped keys doesn’t work at this point. You need to look for what you need in the buffer
> and run C-h ? once again.
>
> 2. Author of the bug highlighted that the current behaviour is not friendly. I am also not sure
> if adding another key just for changing the window is a good solution.
>
> At this point I do not know how we should handle this case.

IMO any key that isn't bound should fallback to its standard binding,
and the keys should only apply when the focus is in the minibuffer, like
other prompts (e.g., find-file).

In terms of implementation, I think this would mean binding the map only
in the minibuffer instead of using read-key-sequence.

Message #36 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net, Bartosz Duszel <dptdescribe <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 20:40:37 -0700 (PDT)

> IMO any key that isn't bound should fallback to its standard binding,
> and the keys should only apply when the focus is in the minibuffer, like
> other prompts (e.g., find-file).
> 
> In terms of implementation, I think this would mean binding the map
> only in the minibuffer instead of using read-key-sequence.

I don't have time to check now, but I think that the minibuffer
is not involved here at all.  Instead, an event is read directly.
IOW, this is more akin to `y-or-n-p': there is a prompt, but is
not for reading input from the minibuffer.

And the keymap used is a local one created by
`help-for-help-internal', which is a function defined
using `make-help-screen'.

Message #39 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: npostavs <at> users.sourceforge.net
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: Bartosz Duszel <dptdescribe <at> gmail.com>, 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Fri, 05 May 2017 08:12:21 -0400

Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:

>> IMO any key that isn't bound should fallback to its standard binding,
>> and the keys should only apply when the focus is in the minibuffer, like
>> other prompts (e.g., find-file).
>> 
>> In terms of implementation, I think this would mean binding the map
>> only in the minibuffer instead of using read-key-sequence.
>
> I don't have time to check now, but I think that the minibuffer
> is not involved here at all.  Instead, an event is read directly.

Yes, I'm suggesting to change that.

> IOW, this is more akin to `y-or-n-p': there is a prompt, but is
> not for reading input from the minibuffer.

> And the keymap used is a local one created by
> `help-for-help-internal', which is a function defined
> using `make-help-screen'.

Message #42 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>
Cc: 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 23:24:49 +0100

Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de> writes:

> Hello, Emacs.
>
> With a recent bzr head:
>
> emacs -Q
> C-h ?       ; brings up the help menu
>
> I now want to search through this menu for "ChangeLog":
>
> C-x         ; intending C-x o
>
> The menu disappears.  This isn't friendly.

We can now search that window using `C-h ? C-s', and it switches to
the *Metahelp* window.  This functionality was added in this comit:

956c39d11d 2018-04-02 Make help-for-help window searchable (Bug#19655)

`C-h C-x o' still doesn't work, though.

Is that good enough here?

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #45 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>, 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 22:56:30 +0200

>> emacs -Q
>> C-h ?       ; brings up the help menu
>>
>> I now want to search through this menu for "ChangeLog":
>>
>> C-x         ; intending C-x o
>>
>> The menu disappears.  This isn't friendly.
>
> We can now search that window using `C-h ? C-s', and it switches to
> the *Metahelp* window.  This functionality was added in this comit:
>
> 956c39d11d 2018-04-02 Make help-for-help window searchable (Bug#19655)
>
> `C-h C-x o' still doesn't work, though.
>
> Is that good enough here?

Maybe help-for-help should use the minibuffer for reading commands
instead of using explicit read-key-sequence?  This would allow
switching to the *Metahelp* window with 'C-x o'.

Message #48 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 18:24:45 +0000

Hello, Juri.

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 22:56:30 +0200, Juri Linkov wrote:
> >> emacs -Q
> >> C-h ?       ; brings up the help menu

> >> I now want to search through this menu for "ChangeLog":

> >> C-x         ; intending C-x o

> >> The menu disappears.  This isn't friendly.

> > We can now search that window using `C-h ? C-s', and it switches to
> > the *Metahelp* window.  This functionality was added in this comit:

> > 956c39d11d 2018-04-02 Make help-for-help window searchable (Bug#19655)

> > `C-h C-x o' still doesn't work, though.

> > Is that good enough here?

> Maybe help-for-help should use the minibuffer for reading commands
> instead of using explicit read-key-sequence?  This would allow
> switching to the *Metahelp* window with 'C-x o'.

This sounds like an excellent idea.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Message #51 received at 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
To: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>
Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, 10945 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 23:18:00 +0200

>> >> emacs -Q
>> >> C-h ?       ; brings up the help menu
>
>> >> I now want to search through this menu for "ChangeLog":
>
>> >> C-x         ; intending C-x o
>
>> >> The menu disappears.  This isn't friendly.
>
>> > We can now search that window using `C-h ? C-s', and it switches to
>> > the *Metahelp* window.  This functionality was added in this comit:
>
>> > 956c39d11d 2018-04-02 Make help-for-help window searchable (Bug#19655)
>
>> > `C-h C-x o' still doesn't work, though.
>
>> > Is that good enough here?
>
>> Maybe help-for-help should use the minibuffer for reading commands
>> instead of using explicit read-key-sequence?  This would allow
>> switching to the *Metahelp* window with 'C-x o'.
>
> This sounds like an excellent idea.

I tried, but the major problem is how to create a wrapper around
commands in 'help-map' to exit the minibuffer before running them.
For example, evaluating:

(read-from-minibuffer "C-h (Type ? for further options)- " nil help-map)

then typing one of the help character, doesn't exit the minibuffer.
Some additional layer of indirection could exit the minibuffer
before running the command, but currently I have no idea how to do this.

PS: Also isearch-help-for-help can't use the minibuffer to read help keys
while isearch-mode is enabled, but this is a minor obstacle.

Message #56 received at 10945-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>, 10945-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 20:49:04 -0700

Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> writes:

>>> >> emacs -Q
>>> >> C-h ?       ; brings up the help menu
>>
>>> >> I now want to search through this menu for "ChangeLog":
>>
>>> >> C-x         ; intending C-x o
>>
>>> >> The menu disappears.  This isn't friendly.
>>
>>> > We can now search that window using `C-h ? C-s', and it switches to
>>> > the *Metahelp* window.  This functionality was added in this comit:
>>
>>> > 956c39d11d 2018-04-02 Make help-for-help window searchable (Bug#19655)
>>
>>> > `C-h C-x o' still doesn't work, though.
>>
>>> > Is that good enough here?
>>
>>> Maybe help-for-help should use the minibuffer for reading commands
>>> instead of using explicit read-key-sequence?  This would allow
>>> switching to the *Metahelp* window with 'C-x o'.
>>
>> This sounds like an excellent idea.
>
> I tried, but the major problem is how to create a wrapper around
> commands in 'help-map' to exit the minibuffer before running them.
> For example, evaluating:
>
> (read-from-minibuffer "C-h (Type ? for further options)- " nil help-map)
>
> then typing one of the help character, doesn't exit the minibuffer.
> Some additional layer of indirection could exit the minibuffer
> before running the command, but currently I have no idea how to do this.
>
> PS: Also isearch-help-for-help can't use the minibuffer to read help keys
> while isearch-mode is enabled, but this is a minor obstacle.

Thanks for looking into that.  The issue seems orthogonal to this bug
report though, so I will close this for now.  Feel free to open a new
bug report if you think we should continue looking into that part.

One observation is that you can now land in the " *Metahelp*" buffer by
saying "C-h C-h C-s emacs RET", which lands point in it.

Message #59 received at 10945-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: Alan Mackenzie <acm <at> muc.de>, 10945-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#10945: Can't search through help menu.
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 21:23:19 +0300

> One observation is that you can now land in the " *Metahelp*" buffer by
> saying "C-h C-h C-s emacs RET", which lands point in it.

When I need to get point into the *Metahelp* buffer,
I just click the mouse anywhere in this buffer.

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