From unknown Sat Jun 21 12:29:42 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10600: 24.0.92; `describe-char': text properties and [Show] Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:47:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 10600 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 10600@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.13275135904733 (code B ref -1); Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:47:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Jan 2012 17:46:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43674 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6vV-0001EH-G8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:46:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:38805) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6vR-0001E0-Fw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:46:26 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6us-0004v3-RE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:45:52 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:54507) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6us-0004oC-CK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:45:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44617) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6fd-0007ye-PU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:30:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6fX-0002QX-Jc for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:30:05 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:32264) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rq6fX-0002Pw-8O for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:29:59 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0PHToFO020127 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:29:52 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0PHTnp8026053 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:29:50 GMT Received: from abhmt107.oracle.com (abhmt107.oracle.com [141.146.116.59]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0PHTnW3020352 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:29:49 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:29:48 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:29:48 -0800 Message-ID: <43455C94792A40C9BD76AAB657A8BCC1@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01CCDB43.E1E3B470" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Aczbhu+WNtaBcDMiR6a3RHYEBEGUGw== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4F203C10.006C,ss=1,re=-2.300,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01CCDB43.E1E3B470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When there are text properties on the char, `describe-char' (hence also `C-u C-x =') shows each of them using the button `[Show]'. 1. A user must click each button to see the value. And if buffer `*Pp Eval Output*' happens to be a special-display buffer then it is shown in a separate frame. This might be appropriate for some values - e.g., values that are too long to fit on a line of the standard max length for `*Help*', but it does not make much sense for values that are not too long. It just means more work and annoyance for the user. 2. If you then do, say, `C-h f forward-char', so that `*Help*' now shows something different, and then you click `[back]', you get the previous `describe-char' output, but this time all of the `[Show]' fields have been replaced by their values. See the attached screenshots. What you see in #2 should not be different from what you see in #1. And what you see in #2 is in most cases more user-friendly: most such values can be shown completely on the same line - there is no need to force users to futz around with `[Show]' buttons. Please DTRT for users: a) Show all values that can be shown on the same line, instead of using`[Show]' buttons for them. b) Show the same output initially and when `[back]' or `[forward]' is clicked. In GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2012-01-22 on MARVIN Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.6) --no-opt --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/src -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libpng-dev_1.4.3-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/zlib-dev_1.2.5-2/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-3.0.9/include --ldflags -LD:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-3.0.9/lib' ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01CCDB43.E1E3B470 Content-Type: image/png; name="throw-emacs-bug-describe-char-Show-2.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="throw-emacs-bug-describe-char-Show-2.png" iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAhcAAABoCAIAAADNUEUiAAAX9UlEQVR4nOydv4/jSHbHX+8ebu7G aFvDnfPiFjCWCxcwyq4vsABv0uqsAga9qYJtCnBgGHUYzj/QGukfGA1QeTc7YLoQwKCylpIJeElP 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AnP1o6GEbIQnzDNTenEotP3zqnSiy513fxiodJw+U0cGh3YjA7lg+zejuUBUHMVzjQTiqyIjM2zW 71MnBEA+SAAQ1cD9vMXH/60TMr63L6MfVeHHDGYEKp1okudFQB9SHUTblYROaENfLL7+SCCNueEi bNjv0/tNnp6dinfBwsqJhyDS3zAKltKPhhE0ExW0QqFlnpa5VOtEEzov4vLIKj3iSUIztDKEaM34 JuIPmfEoqv5TksSHrR1iO/QayF7ROjmtwjzZ+BbH3zN2sc4S2T6kk9ay7vPFNK9+1cn16oUknzKs O/4+g3WWyEZo/2as0YJeszKc/5Ktir/H4FwDQZAoMI9AECQKHCMQBIkCxwgEQaL4fwK2FdATOI5P AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01CCDB43.E1E3B470-- From unknown Sat Jun 21 12:29:42 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10600: 24.0.92; `describe-char': text properties and [Show] Resent-From: Chong Yidong Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:33:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10600 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 10600@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 10600-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10600.132764954625338 (code B ref 10600); Fri, 27 Jan 2012 07:33:01 +0000 Received: (at 10600) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jan 2012 07:32:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46068 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RqgIL-0006ac-5D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 02:32:26 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:35743 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RqgII-0006aU-KL for 10600@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 02:32:23 -0500 Received: from [155.69.17.161] (port=44688 helo=furball) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RqgHh-0001AM-4E; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 02:31:45 -0500 From: Chong Yidong In-Reply-To: <43455C94792A40C9BD76AAB657A8BCC1@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:29:48 -0800") References: <43455C94792A40C9BD76AAB657A8BCC1@us.oracle.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.92 (gnu/linux) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:31:39 +0800 Message-ID: <87ipjxd2jo.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) "Drew Adams" writes: > When there are text properties on the char, `describe-char' (hence also > `C-u C-x =') shows each of them using the button `[Show]'. Please provide a precise step-by-step recipe to reproduce the problem, starting from emacs -Q. From unknown Sat Jun 21 12:29:42 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10600: 24.0.92; `describe-char': text properties and [Show] Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:17:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10600 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Chong Yidong'" Cc: 10600@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 10600-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10600.132768099124908 (code B ref 10600); Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:17:01 +0000 Received: (at 10600) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jan 2012 16:16:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46935 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RqoTQ-0006Tb-PX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:16:31 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:16585) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RqoTO-0006TM-HB for 10600@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:16:23 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0RGFbT0027391 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:15:37 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0RGFZIM013414 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:15:36 GMT Received: from abhmt109.oracle.com (abhmt109.oracle.com [141.146.116.61]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0RGFZiN012687; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:15:35 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.238) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:15:34 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" References: <43455C94792A40C9BD76AAB657A8BCC1@us.oracle.com> <87ipjxd2jo.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:15:31 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87ipjxd2jo.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AczcxbuKiivF02zwQLOLeFfrOjRC4gARz9Rg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.4F22CDAA.0011,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) > > When there are text properties on the char, `describe-char' > > (hence also `C-u C-x =') shows each of them using the button `[Show]'. > > Please provide a precise step-by-step recipe to reproduce the problem, > starting from emacs -Q. I looked a bit closer. The problem is apparently the same as for bug #10127: The *Help* buffer being prepared has not yet been displayed, so it has no associated window. Yet the code calls (window-width) to determine the width of the yet-to-be-displayed buffer. This is obviously wrong. The current window for that calculation does not correspond to *Help* at all. It is wrong to assume that *Help* will be displayed in a window having the same width as the window where the help command is invoked. In particular, when pop-up frames are used or *Help* is a special-display buffer then its width will not, in general correspond to the initial window. Another case is where windows are split side-by-side. It's simply misguided to base the assumed *Help* window width on the width of any existing window. It makes more sense to do something like this: Use the maximum default width for *Help* _buffer text_, which is no doubt something like 70 (less than 80, in any case). We already go to the trouble of wrapping help text at such a limit. That limit should be also the basis for determining the width of this help display. From unknown Sat Jun 21 12:29:42 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10600: 24.0.92; `describe-char': text properties and [Show] Resent-From: Juanma Barranquero Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:31:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10600 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 10600@debbugs.gnu.org, Chong Yidong Received: via spool by 10600-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10600.132769621714733 (code B ref 10600); Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:31:02 +0000 Received: (at 10600) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jan 2012 20:30:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47062 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RqsR6-0003pa-Ie for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:30:17 -0500 Received: from mail-pz0-f44.google.com ([209.85.210.44]:57805) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RqsR3-0003pL-Qp for 10600@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:30:15 -0500 Received: by dado14 with SMTP id o14so1641702dad.3 for <10600@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:29:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Gg4g43PCFV61D0NYRdI+nYwLj2BRF+zQoL7Ngk6Hzlo=; b=acJP5CpO3pmKhRZ8stBMYA+gWF2yOXvt9cFX9bvFzw/F3FUUkv8mTQ3oUlnF8gqEGW WUzInmC61H1/uJJaK+gLSIGt54axc32QGCNsUClGoiOaoOHh1VSzziJzP1atopDmrLDS G/FK4nF4bV2ByCaAXKCNbOBYMAID+Fsr+Hf8M= Received: by 10.68.224.6 with SMTP id qy6mr16895038pbc.60.1327696168168; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:29:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:28:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <43455C94792A40C9BD76AAB657A8BCC1@us.oracle.com> <87ipjxd2jo.fsf@gnu.org> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:28:48 +0100 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 17:15, Drew Adams wrote: > The current window for that calculation does not correspond to *Help* at = all. > It is wrong to assume that *Help* will be displayed in a window having th= e same > width as the window where the help command is invoked. Yes. > It's simply misguided to base the assumed *Help* window width on the widt= h of > any existing window. I disagree. I think it makes sense to base it on the width of the window used to display it. In cases like this one, it should be possible to display the (empty) buffer, then generate its output. > We already go to the trouble of > wrapping help text at such a limit. By hand, you mean? Because if you define a function with a docstring 100 chars long, and do M-x describe-function my-test-func , there's no wrap at all. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From unknown Sat Jun 21 12:29:42 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10600: 24.0.92; `describe-char': text properties and [Show] Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:45:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10600 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Juanma Barranquero'" Cc: 10600@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Chong Yidong' Received: via spool by 10600-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10600.132770069321467 (code B ref 10600); Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:45:01 +0000 Received: (at 10600) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jan 2012 21:44:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47100 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RqtbJ-0005aB-6k for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:44:53 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:52008) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RqtbF-0005Zx-Fl for 10600@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:44:50 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0RLi2XU028325 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:44:03 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0RLi1Hj019372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:44:01 GMT Received: from abhmt112.oracle.com (abhmt112.oracle.com [141.146.116.64]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0RLi1i5031582; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:44:01 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.238) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:44:00 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" References: <43455C94792A40C9BD76AAB657A8BCC1@us.oracle.com> <87ipjxd2jo.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 13:43:56 -0800 Message-ID: <1200228C8BF9437F8F41033C2F1991D0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczdMmBC4RcIiPJKQYaDT56VvrZDXAAANtkA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4F231AA4.0001,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) > > The current window for that calculation does not correspond > > to *Help* at all. It is wrong to assume that *Help* will be > > displayed in a window having the same width as the window > > where the help command is invoked. > > Yes. > > > It's simply misguided to base the assumed *Help* window > > width on the width of any existing window. > > I disagree. I think it makes sense to base it on the width of the > window used to display it. In cases like this one, it should be > possible to display the (empty) buffer, then generate its output. For one thing, that is not done today, so your statement about disagreeing does not in fact point to any _existing_ window (today) which it makes sense to use as the measure of the yet-to-be-displayed *Help* window. For another thing, the width of the window chosen to display the *Help* buffer text can depend on the width of that buffer text. That we do not do that often today is not a reason not to allow for it. That is exactly what I do with frames, for example: I fit the frame to the buffer text, and I rely upon the help functions to produce a reasonable buffer layout. But yes, for a window or a frame, there are default widths that are in effect as well. At any rate, I am not necessarily opposed to what you describe - as one user choice (and not as something to be imposed). But in that case, the key is to know what the display window is. That is a far cry from what we do today, which is to use the current window to guess the width of the to-be-displayed *Help* window. That makes no sense at all. > > We already go to the trouble of wrapping help text at such a limit. > > By hand, you mean? Because if you define a function with a docstring > 100 chars long, and do M-x describe-function my-test-func , > there's no wrap at all. Yes there is, or there should be a wrap, for doc strings provided by Emacs itself. That's a long accepted design criterion, though yes, there are occasionally bugs (which do get fixed). And yes, we typically write doc strings by hand, and we decide where to break lines (often with the help of `M-q'). And in addition to doc strings, which are conventionally as described above, for the most part dynamically composed *Help* text is filled, which uses the current value of `fill-column'. And that's often the default value, 70. So in practice it is rare (and IMO a bug) when a *Help* buffer is much wider than, say 80 chars. --- FWIW, I have coded my own version of `describe-char' that DTRT. The code passes an optional WIDTH-SO-FAR arg to functions such as `describe-text-sexp', `describe-property-list', `describe-text-properties', and `describe-text-properties-1', and it has such functions update and return the max such width they've contributed to. If interested, you can find it here: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/descr-text%2b.el. If really interested, I could send it in the form of a patch. (This code also fixes bug #10129: It shows also the cursor position, which is otherwise missing and appears only in an ephemeral message.) --- In general, it is (and it should be) up to the individual functions that compose (any) bits of *Help* text to decide whether and where to fill or break it. In the case of `describe-char', it seems to be the font name that is the typically longest line. I have no problem with that line not being broken and serving to set the window (frame) width. The `[Show]' fields mentioned in the bug report come after that longest line anyway, so at least in the case of `describe-char' they are typically all shown completely. From unknown Sat Jun 21 12:29:42 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10600: 24.0.92; `describe-char': text properties and [Show] Resent-From: Juanma Barranquero Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:18:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10600 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 10600@debbugs.gnu.org, Chong Yidong Received: via spool by 10600-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10600.132777103828484 (code B ref 10600); Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:18:01 +0000 Received: (at 10600) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jan 2012 17:17:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48452 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RrBtu-0007PN-6d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:17:18 -0500 Received: from mail-pw0-f44.google.com ([209.85.160.44]:43365) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RrBtr-0007P9-JU for 10600@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:17:16 -0500 Received: by pbdu7 with SMTP id u7so1975874pbd.3 for <10600@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:16:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dOpMb+0SyItPXhjn1kh19QqLSFXhluR9e0Ia7evD3f0=; b=kLdTry2ov2uvzrzqlr5bj2xseCmI6Zdm6qWCixH5AmAMnID2mSW8XL9MbN4+QOT8A7 Qj1Hx/oEUMvoTidpKiSLfWvo1TfJUnjSs5xfJiWUZK7lTvb9YCORMwdgQOUKSHuRzQHf itAkrg1tqCLWYYkMJPsvFxOtN29VWc9pjifXM= Received: by 10.68.226.137 with SMTP id rs9mr24539144pbc.94.1327770985201; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:16:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.37.9 with HTTP; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:15:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1200228C8BF9437F8F41033C2F1991D0@us.oracle.com> References: <43455C94792A40C9BD76AAB657A8BCC1@us.oracle.com> <87ipjxd2jo.fsf@gnu.org> <1200228C8BF9437F8F41033C2F1991D0@us.oracle.com> From: Juanma Barranquero Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:15:45 +0100 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 22:43, Drew Adams wrote: > For one thing, that is not done today, so your statement about disagreein= g does > not in fact point to any _existing_ window (today) which it makes sense t= o use > as the measure of the yet-to-be-displayed *Help* window. When you say > It's simply misguided to base the assumed *Help* window > width on the width of any existing window. that's a general statement, not specifically about today's windows. > For another thing, the width of the window chosen to display the *Help* b= uffer > text can depend on the width of that buffer text. =C2=A0That we do not do= that often > today is not a reason not to allow for it. =C2=A0That is exactly what I d= o with > frames, for example: I fit the frame to the buffer text, and I rely upon = the > help functions to produce a reasonable buffer layout. So you're computing the window (and frame) width from the buffer text, and complaining that you don't like how the buffer text is distributed, because it exceeds the maximum width you want to give to a window or frame. But, as reflowing the buffer text according to the window width would defeat your method, the only option left is to chose an arbitrary limit and stick to it, even if, in some cases, a different width is best for most users... In many, but not all, *Help* buffers, reflowing or not reflowing their contents is largely irrelevant. But for the output of describe-char, the way it is now is IMHO much, *much* better that what you proposed before (getting rid of the right-alignment of field names), and certainly I don't think reflowing it would improve things, on the contrary it would make them less clear. > But in that case, the key is to know what the display window is. =C2=A0Th= at is a far > cry from what we do today, which is to use the current window to guess th= e width > of the to-be-displayed *Help* window. =C2=A0That makes no sense at all. I wouldn't go as far as to say that it does "make no sense at all", because it obviously works in many common cases. But it is erroneous, sure. > Yes there is, or there should be a wrap, for doc strings provided by Emac= s itself. On the contrary, I disagree on that "should be". *Help* buffers try to give useful information, and manual reflowing is almost always better than automatic reflowing. It fails for some narrow windows, but that's why we use 70 chars or so as a limit. Automatic reflow to support the likely very few users who use extremelly narrow windows seems a waste and a step back. > And in addition to doc strings, which are conventionally as described abo= ve, for > the most part dynamically composed *Help* text is filled, which uses the = current > value of `fill-column'. =C2=A0And that's often the default value, 70. I think most dynamically composed *Help* text tends to be line-oriented (i.e, it adds \n with glee), but obviously, in cases where the text does not need careful formating, leaving it to automatic reflowing is a valid answer. That does not mean that it is the best, or preferred, method to write *Help* output. That depends entirely of the output. > So in practice it is rare (and IMO a bug) when a *Help* buffer is much wi= der > than, say 80 chars. Again, that depends on the output. There are cases where using more, if the window is wide enough, is clearer. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma From unknown Sat Jun 21 12:29:42 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10600: 24.0.92; `describe-char': text properties and [Show] Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:06:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10600 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Juanma Barranquero'" Cc: 10600@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Chong Yidong' Received: via spool by 10600-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10600.132781351918680 (code B ref 10600); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:06:02 +0000 Received: (at 10600) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jan 2012 05:05:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42799 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RrMx5-0004rF-6f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:05:19 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:58287) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RrMx2-0004r1-8w for 10600@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jan 2012 00:05:17 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q0T557O1027899 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:05:08 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q0T556sb025598 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 29 Jan 2012 05:05:06 GMT Received: from abhmt113.oracle.com (abhmt113.oracle.com [141.146.116.65]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q0T5551r010304; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 23:05:06 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.37.215) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:05:05 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" References: <43455C94792A40C9BD76AAB657A8BCC1@us.oracle.com> <87ipjxd2jo.fsf@gnu.org> <1200228C8BF9437F8F41033C2F1991D0@us.oracle.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:04:58 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Thread-Index: Aczd4JIST/aHw0VWT5iJFS8vEf/n9gAYmxdQ X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4F24D384.0046,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) Just try the code (essentially a patch) I pointed you to. It DTRT, IMO, deciding whether to use `[Show]' or the button's real text based on the maximum line length up to that point. IOW, the longest line (which is typically the font name) determines the buffer width. And given knowledge of that width, full button text or `[Show]' is used accordingly. http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/descr-text%2b.el. From unknown Sat Jun 21 12:29:42 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10600: 24.0.92; `describe-char': text properties and [Show] Resent-From: Kevin Rodgers Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 07:02:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10600 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 10600@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.13281660753863 (code B ref -1); Thu, 02 Feb 2012 07:02:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Feb 2012 07:01:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49909 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RsqfS-00010F-2c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 02:01:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:51981) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RsqfO-0000zx-A4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 02:01:12 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rsqep-00085e-R1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 02:00:39 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:33600) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rsqep-00085Y-OD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 02:00:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36360) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rsqem-0006Wg-33 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 02:00:35 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rsqei-000845-Bf for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 02:00:32 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:58233) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rsqei-00083t-4F for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 02:00:28 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rsqeg-0004BG-DG for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 08:00:26 +0100 Received: from c-71-237-25-24.hsd1.co.comcast.net ([71.237.25.24]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 08:00:26 +0100 Received: from kevin.d.rodgers by c-71-237-25-24.hsd1.co.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 08:00:26 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ From: Kevin Rodgers Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 00:01:13 -0700 Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <43455C94792A40C9BD76AAB657A8BCC1@us.oracle.com> <87ipjxd2jo.fsf@gnu.org> <1200228C8BF9437F8F41033C2F1991D0@us.oracle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-71-237-25-24.hsd1.co.comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.2.26) Gecko/20120129 Thunderbird/3.1.18 In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) On 1/28/12 10:15 AM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 22:43, Drew Adams wrote: ... >> For another thing, the width of the window chosen to display the *Help* buffer >> text can depend on the width of that buffer text. That we do not do that often >> today is not a reason not to allow for it. That is exactly what I do with >> frames, for example: I fit the frame to the buffer text, and I rely upon the >> help functions to produce a reasonable buffer layout. > > So you're computing the window (and frame) width from the buffer text, > and complaining that you don't like how the buffer text is > distributed, because it exceeds the maximum width you want to give to > a window or frame. But, as reflowing the buffer text according to the > window width would defeat your method, the only option left is to > chose an arbitrary limit and stick to it, even if, in some cases, a > different width is best for most users... > > In many, but not all, *Help* buffers, reflowing or not reflowing their > contents is largely irrelevant. But for the output of describe-char, > the way it is now is IMHO much, *much* better that what you proposed > before (getting rid of the right-alignment of field names), and > certainly I don't think reflowing it would improve things, on the > contrary it would make them less clear. > >> But in that case, the key is to know what the display window is. That is a far >> cry from what we do today, which is to use the current window to guess the width >> of the to-be-displayed *Help* window. That makes no sense at all. > > I wouldn't go as far as to say that it does "make no sense at all", > because it obviously works in many common cases. But it is erroneous, > sure. > >> Yes there is, or there should be a wrap, for doc strings provided by Emacs itself. > > On the contrary, I disagree on that "should be". *Help* buffers try to > give useful information, and manual reflowing is almost always better > than automatic reflowing. It fails for some narrow windows, but that's > why we use 70 chars or so as a limit. Automatic reflow to support the > likely very few users who use extremelly narrow windows seems a waste > and a step back. Would it be feasible to create a temporary *Help* buffer/window/frame with no text at all, which is "displayed" by Emacs but not rendered to the user (i.e. not mapped by the terminal / window system), for the purpose of querying its width and using that value when filling the real *Help* buffer text? -- Kevin Rodgers Denver, Colorado, USA From unknown Sat Jun 21 12:29:42 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10600: 24.0.92; `describe-char': text properties and [Show] Resent-From: martin rudalics Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 11:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10600 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Kevin Rodgers Cc: 10600@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 10600-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10600.13281810432117 (code B ref 10600); Thu, 02 Feb 2012 11:11:02 +0000 Received: (at 10600) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Feb 2012 11:10:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50035 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RsuYt-0000Y6-5T for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 06:10:43 -0500 Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net ([213.165.64.23]:36160) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RsuYq-0000Xt-U2 for 10600@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2012 06:10:41 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 02 Feb 2012 11:10:08 -0000 Received: from 62-47-50-194.adsl.highway.telekom.at (EHLO [62.47.50.194]) [62.47.50.194] by mail.gmx.net (mp029) with SMTP; 02 Feb 2012 12:10:08 +0100 X-Authenticated: #14592706 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19kzIwUL25kBCVS6G0kc6kz0tdhtrjM4Kt59I48V3 /16mXJKlahvhhp Message-ID: <4F2A6ECB.1010705@gmx.at> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 12:08:59 +0100 From: martin rudalics MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <43455C94792A40C9BD76AAB657A8BCC1@us.oracle.com> <87ipjxd2jo.fsf@gnu.org> <1200228C8BF9437F8F41033C2F1991D0@us.oracle.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) > Would it be feasible to create a temporary *Help* buffer/window/frame > with no text at all, which is "displayed" by Emacs but not rendered to > the user (i.e. not mapped by the terminal / window system), for the > purpose of querying its width and using that value when filling the real > *Help* buffer text? There are many ways to handle the problems cited (and also that of formatting man buffers). Basically, we should either know the size of the window before rendering the buffer or know the rendering of the buffer before creating the window. I'm afraid though that any of these approaches will require rewriting lots of `with-output-to-temp-buffer' and similar functions. martin From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 19 23:15:26 2012 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Aug 2012 03:15:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39139 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T3ISb-0001gk-W7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 23:15:26 -0400 Received: from mail-pz0-f44.google.com ([209.85.210.44]:56604) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1T3ISa-0001gd-Ax for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 23:15:24 -0400 Received: by dakr19 with SMTP id r19so2370056dak.3 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:15:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; bh=iCdM2UdY631t1wAtrXjsBCKeinVdoWBOwSeBlg917zs=; b=NFozr3aLtdsUxNo/HDxW16PEyK92CVNpxHpmamkCa6QsQzin2vgTIOLG3KaiO/FQ7l AJaW2yOdtN2bejmp/9x04BSMe3mIiwb2/PBK9p7XSKYDne4I8KW+zXp/q8krMmSmgtxe NSY7vhs8QlMeNhJCcY83dw2AicdLGFC/tRZhDSJNJ3OdMwVODpvDL85dpODo8hQnIDmi i5mA5/K9wqLNESpDOXTTMzQ0WDajL/TWkQ6bHgWUC1LyO+ehwAI4oBwK+eVN9beIHlap xPjyuO8M+7nACY4IL9ctbabJuJzR8d9OoXFdYDfpl5pNYay042LvevlwCS2JliZjUeVt 5GSA== Received: by 10.68.234.169 with SMTP id uf9mr23783065pbc.105.1345432511325; Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ulysses (cm162.gamma80.maxonline.com.sg. [202.156.80.162]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ka4sm4763209pbc.61.2012.08.19.20.15.09 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:15:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Chong Yidong To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: forcemerge 10127 10600 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:15:07 +0800 Message-ID: <87boi6xnic.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) forcemerge 10127 10600 thanks