GNU bug report logs - #1056
Filesets menu location

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Message #5 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: David Reitter <david.reitter <at> gmail.com>
To: emacs-pretest-bug <at> gnu.org
Subject: Filesets menu location
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 07:13:00 -0400

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Dominic Dunlop <domo <at> computer.org>
> Date: 30 September 2008 03:37:08 EDT
> To: aquamacs-bugs <at> aquamacs.org
> Subject: [Aquamacs-bugs] Filesets menu location
>
> Although the Filesets menu is nice to have (although I found it a bit
> of a bear to set up), I find its position between the application and
> file menus to be continually jarring. Apple's Human Interface Design
> Guidelines (<http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGMenus/chapter_17_section_4.html#/ 
> /apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30000356-TPXREF103
>> ) require that the first four menus, left to right, shall be Apple,
> Application, File, Edit -- unless one or both of File and Edit is not
> relevant, and so omitted. I cannot think of an application that
> violates this order. Except Aquamacs, with the consequence that my
> muscle memory moves the pointer to the wrong place when I want the
> File or Edit menu.
>
> So, may I request that an option is provided to make Filesets a
> submenu of the File menu?
>
> Thanks!
>
> In GNU Emacs 22.3.2 (powerpc-apple-darwin9.5.0, Carbon Version 1.6.0)
>  of 2008-09-22 on lucy - Aquamacs Distribution 1.5
> Windowing system distributor `Apple Inc.', version 10.5.5
> configured using `configure  '--without-x' '--prefix=/usr/local''
>
> Important settings:
>   value of $LC_ALL: nil
>   value of $LC_COLLATE: nil
>   value of $LC_CTYPE: en_GB.UTF-8
>   value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil
>   value of $LC_MONETARY: nil
>   value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil
>   value of $LC_TIME: nil
>   value of $LANG: nil
>   locale-coding-system: utf-8
>   default-enable-multibyte-characters: t
>
> Major mode: nXML
>
> Minor modes in effect:
>   savehist-mode: t
>   smart-frame-positioning-mode: t
>   global-visual-line-mode: t
>   visual-line-mode: t
>   shell-dirtrack-mode: t
>   recentf-mode: t
>   encoded-kbd-mode: t
>   osx-key-mode: t
>   show-paren-mode: t
>   delete-selection-mode: t
>   pc-selection-mode: t
>   cua-mode: t
>   tooltip-mode: t
>   mouse-wheel-mode: t
>   file-name-shadow-mode: t
>   global-font-lock-mode: t
>   font-lock-mode: t
>   blink-cursor-mode: t
>   unify-8859-on-encoding-mode: t
>   utf-translate-cjk-mode: t
>   auto-compression-mode: t
>   column-number-mode: t
>   line-number-mode: t
>   transient-mark-mode: t
>
> Recent input:
> <menu-bar> <file> <Open Recent> <chaos-sample.acbea>
> <help-echo> <mouse-1> <mouse-1> <mouse-1> <mouse-1>
> <mouse-1> <mouse-1> <mouse-1> <mouse-1> <mouse-1> <down-mouse-1>
> <mouse-movement> <mouse-1> C-t C-x C-s <down-mouse-1>
> <mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-movement> <mouse-movement>
> <drag-mouse-1> <help-echo> A-v C-x C-s C-x 5 f C-g
> <menu-bar> <help-menu> <bug-diagnosis> <send-emacs
> -bug-report>
>
> Recent messages:
> Loading rng-cmpct...done
> Loading rng-xsd...done
> Using vacuous schema
> Loading vc-svn...done
> Loading vc...done
> Wrote /ssh:ddunlop <at> cluster1a.uni.lu#8022:/home/clusterusers/ddunlop/
> Thesis/hpc-ga-bench/libacbea-0.1.0/config/chaos-sample.acbea
> Mark set
> Wrote /ssh:ddunlop <at> cluster1a.uni.lu#8022:/home/clusterusers/ddunlop/
> Thesis/hpc-ga-bench/libacbea-0.1.0/config/chaos-sample.acbea
> Quit
> Loading emacsbug...done
>
> Command line: (/Applications/Aquamacs Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/
> Aquamacs Emacs)
>
> PATH: /sw/bin:/sw/sbin:/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/
> usr/X11R6/bin:/Users/domo/bin:/opt/local/bin:/opt/local/sbin:/sw/bin:/
> usr/local/bin:/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/Developer/
> Tools
>
> exec-path: (/sw/bin /sw/sbin /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/local/bin /usr/
> sbin /usr/X11R6/bin /Users/domo/bin /opt/local/bin /opt/local/sbin / 
> sw/
> bin /usr/local/bin /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbin /usr/X11R6/bin /
> Developer/Tools /Applications/Aquamacs Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/
> libexec /Applications/Aquamacs Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/bin)
>

Message #10 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "'Dominic Dunlop'" <domo <at> computer.org>,
        "'David Reitter'" <david.reitter <at> gmail.com>,
        <1056 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, <emacs-pretest-bug <at> gnu.org>
Subject: RE: bug#1056: Filesets menu location
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 07:15:50 -0700

> > Although the Filesets menu is nice to have (although I 
> found it a bit
> > of a bear to set up), I find its position between the 
> application and
> > file menus to be continually jarring. Apple's Human Interface Design
> > Guidelines 
> (<http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conc
> eptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGMenus/chapter_17_section_4.html#/ 
> > /apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30000356-TPXREF103
> >> ) require that the first four menus, left to right, shall be Apple,
> > Application, File, Edit -- unless one or both of File and 
> Edit is not
> > relevant, and so omitted. I cannot think of an application that
> > violates this order. Except Aquamacs, with the consequence that my
> > muscle memory moves the pointer to the wrong place when I want the
> > File or Edit menu.
> >
> > So, may I request that an option is provided to make Filesets a
> > submenu of the File menu?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > In GNU Emacs 22.3.2 (powerpc-apple-darwin9.5.0, Carbon 
> Version 1.6.0)
> >  of 2008-09-22 on lucy - Aquamacs Distribution 1.5
> > Windowing system distributor `Apple Inc.', version 10.5.5
> > configured using `configure  '--without-x' '--prefix=/usr/local''

See bug #976 and my mail in that thread of 2008-09-18, where I mention the same
thing:

> 2. In the defcustom for `filesets-menu-path', '("files") 
> should be '("file").
> The GNU Emacs version uses nil as the default, which makes 
> `Filesets' a separate
> menu-bar menu, but I think it makes more sense to do as you 
> have done: make it a submenu of the `File' menu.

In addition, the default value of `filesets-menu-before' should be "Open
File..."

See this supplemental library that fixes some of this stuff. Turn it into a diff
if you prefer:
http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/filesets%2b.el

HTH. 

Message #18 received at 1056 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Dominic Dunlop <domo <at> computer.org>
Cc: David Reitter <david.reitter <at> gmail.com>, 1056 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1056: Filesets menu location
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:15:28 -0400

>> From: Dominic Dunlop <domo <at> computer.org>
[...]
>> Although the Filesets menu is nice to have (although I found it a
>> bit of a bear to set up), I find its position between the
>> application and file menus to be continually jarring. Apple's Human
>> Interface Design Guidelines...

Heaven forfend we should disagree with such a document...

>> So, may I request that an option is provided to make Filesets a
>> submenu of the File menu?

In the current CVS trunk, this works for me:

(setq filesets-menu-before "Open File..."
      filesets-menu-path '("File"))
(require 'filesets)
(filesets-init)

Message #23 received at 1056 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: David Reitter <david.reitter <at> gmail.com>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Dominic Dunlop <domo <at> computer.org>, 1056 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1056: Filesets menu location
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:23:18 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On 30 Sep 2008, at 12:15, Glenn Morris wrote:

>>> From: Dominic Dunlop <domo <at> computer.org>
> [...]
>>> Although the Filesets menu is nice to have (although I found it a
>>> bit of a bear to set up), I find its position between the
>>> application and file menus to be continually jarring. Apple's Human
>>> Interface Design Guidelines...
>
> Heaven forfend we should disagree with such a document...

true :)
but that said, it goes against a rather wide-spread standard... File,  
Edit, and then whatever...

>>> So, may I request that an option is provided to make Filesets a
>>> submenu of the File menu?
>
> In the current CVS trunk, this works for me:
>
> (setq filesets-menu-before "Open File..."
>      filesets-menu-path '("File"))
> (require 'filesets)
> (filesets-init)

I think a good default would be either next to the Buffers menu (to  
the left, probably), because of the semantics, or simply inside the  
File menu (again, semantics).  The latter would be supported by the  
fact that the menu bar tends to get quite crowded especially on  
smallish (15") laptop screens.

- D

[smime.p7s (application/pkcs7-signature, attachment)]

Message #30 received at 1056 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "'Glenn Morris'" <rgm <at> gnu.org>, <1056 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>,
        "'Dominic Dunlop'" <domo <at> computer.org>
Subject: RE: bug#1056: Filesets menu location
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:51:30 -0700

> >> So, may I request that an option is provided to make Filesets a
> >> submenu of the File menu?
> 
> In the current CVS trunk, this works for me:
> 
> (setq filesets-menu-before "Open File..."
>       filesets-menu-path '("File"))
> (require 'filesets)
> (filesets-init)

Yes, it works, but it would be better to use that as the default value, instead
of adding the Filesets menu at the menu-bar top level.

Message #35 received at 1056 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Lennart Borgman (gmail)" <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>
To: David Reitter <david.reitter <at> gmail.com>, 1056 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, Dominic Dunlop <domo <at> computer.org>
Subject: Re: bug#1056: Filesets menu location
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:18:02 +0200

David Reitter wrote:
> On 30 Sep 2008, at 12:15, Glenn Morris wrote:
> 
>>>> From: Dominic Dunlop <domo <at> computer.org>
>> [...]
>>>> Although the Filesets menu is nice to have (although I found it a
>>>> bit of a bear to set up), I find its position between the
>>>> application and file menus to be continually jarring. Apple's Human
>>>> Interface Design Guidelines...
>>
>> Heaven forfend we should disagree with such a document...
> 
> true :)
> but that said, it goes against a rather wide-spread standard... File,
> Edit, and then whatever...

Didn't we have a discussion like that before where we agreed that
nothing should be placed before "File Edit" by default?

In my opinion it definitively should go in the File menu, probably close
to "Open File ...".

> I think a good default would be either next to the Buffers menu (to the
> left, probably), because of the semantics, or simply inside the File
> menu (again, semantics).  The latter would be supported by the fact that
> the menu bar tends to get quite crowded especially on smallish (15")
> laptop screens.

I think it would be good with some rather big reorganisation of the
menus. Some thoughts about it:

- Most Emacs users seems to use the menus very little.
- They are however important to new users.
- The menu bar tends to be clottered by too many things.
- The most important use of the menu bar is probably not doing something
quickly.
- More important is probably finding commands you do not know about.
- If this is true then a more conceptual organisation is probably the best.
- Also it will be useful to put more commands in the menus.
- It does not really matter if the menu is deep for those commands where
we merely want to point out that they exists.

Some things I would like to be done:
- Get all nice search and replace commands into the Edit menu. Quite a
lot of them are missing in the menus. (For example it would be nice to
have isearch "continuation" entries there, ie jump to Occur, to Query
Replace etc.)

- Make a new entry, perhaps called "Display" in the menu bar.
- Under display I would put "Buffers", "Frames" and "Windows" (and in
the future perhaps some grouping concept like project, application (it
is an OS, isn't it?)).

- Make a new entry "Minor" (after the major mode entry) where all minor
modes should go by default.
- Divide this in global and buffer local entries, perhaps by putting an
entry "Global" there with a submenu.

Message #40 received at 1056-done <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: 1056-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1056: Filesets menu location
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 02:58:28 -0400

2008-10-01  Glenn Morris  <rgm <at> gnu.org>

            * filesets.el (filesets-menu-name): Fix type.
            (filesets-menu-path, filesets-menu-before): Fix types.
            Change defaults to be consistent with recentf.  (Bug#1056)

Message #45 received at 1056 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Dominic Dunlop <domo <at> computer.org>
To: 1056 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1056 closed by Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> (Re: bug#1056: Filesets menu location)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:42:57 +0200

On 2008–10–01, at 09:10, Emacs bug Tracking System wrote:
> This is an automatic notification regarding your bug report
> which was filed against the emacs package:
>
> #1056: Filesets menu location
>
> It has been closed by Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>.

Everything's fine. Just a vote of thanks for the group's speedy  
response.
-- 
Dominic Dunlop

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