From unknown Mon Jun 23 07:50:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10451: 24.0.92; Bad cross reference in Info manual Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 06:41:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 10451 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 10451@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.132600485326267 (code B ref -1); Sun, 08 Jan 2012 06:41:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jan 2012 06:40:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49355 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RjmR2-0006pb-C0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:40:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:52430) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RjmR0-0006pN-4v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:40:50 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjmQn-0007ML-7F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:40:38 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:45576) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjmQn-0007MH-5l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:40:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:56291) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjmQm-0007sL-02 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:40:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjmQk-0007M4-Ut for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:40:35 -0500 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:46491) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjmQk-0007M0-MF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 01:40:34 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q086eXtZ003104 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 06:40:33 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q086eWpR002404 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 06:40:32 GMT Received: from abhmt110.oracle.com (abhmt110.oracle.com [141.146.116.62]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q086eWwj015692 for ; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 00:40:32 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.13) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 22:40:32 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 22:40:25 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AczN0GbXD1F52ZGmQUGhL56nTxlqDA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090205.4F093A62.0007,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) There are a few cross references such as this in the `Info' manual: "see Overview of Texinfo(texinfo)". The Texinfo manual is not included with Emacs. These links are thus broken. While it is not absolutely necessary that the links actually work, it would be far better if the manual used only links that work. In this case, a different manual could be used - one that is included with Emacs. I realize that the Info manual is not only for Emacs. Still, many readers will read it in Emacs, and this is borne out by some of the manual text that says things like "If you are reading this in Emacs...". It is likely that at least as many readers of the Info manual will have the Emacs manual (and perhaps some other manuals that are provided with Emacs) as will have the Texinfo manual installed. And most Info users will never be creating Info files and thus using Texinfo. In GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2012-01-05 on MARVIN Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.6) --no-opt --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/src -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libpng-dev_1.4.3-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/zlib-dev_1.2.5-2/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-3.0.9/include --ldflags -LD:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-3.0.9/lib' From unknown Mon Jun 23 07:50:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10451: 24.0.92; Bad cross reference in Info manual Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 08:57:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10451 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 10451@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 10451-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10451.13260129788887 (code B ref 10451); Sun, 08 Jan 2012 08:57:01 +0000 Received: (at 10451) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jan 2012 08:56:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49419 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoY5-0002JI-GS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:56:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:52086 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoY3-0002JA-5L for 10451@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:56:16 -0500 Received: from eliz by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjoXu-0001Ad-Ls; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:56:06 -0500 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:56:06 -0500 Message-Id: From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (drew.adams@oracle.com) References: X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) > From: "Drew Adams" > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 22:40:25 -0800 > > There are a few cross references such as this in the `Info' manual: "see > Overview of Texinfo(texinfo)". The Texinfo manual is not included with > Emacs. These links are thus broken. We also have links to other manuals provided by other projects: Make, glibc, and Aspell, for example. Manuals of other GNU projects do the same; e.g. the Texinfo manuals include references to Emacs. There's nothing we can do about this; avoiding such links would make the manual less useful. A reader does not _have_ to follow every hyperlink she sees, only those she is really interested in. A reader who really is interested in the details of how Info files are generated, will need to install the Texinfo package which brings the manual with it. (You can have it too, a Windows port is available. Drop me a note if you want a URL.) > While it is not absolutely necessary that the links actually work, it > would be far better if the manual used only links that work. In this > case, a different manual could be used - one that is included with > Emacs. Are you suggesting to have some version of Texinfo manual as part of the Emacs package? That sounds like a strange proposal: it would lead to massive duplication of effort or to excessive interdependencies between largely independent projects. Cf. the (still on-going) discussion about "GnuTLS and W32". What could be useful is to enhance info.el to give some indication that a given hyperlink points to a manual that is not available. If this is what your report is about, or if it could be satisfied by such a change, then I agree; otherwise I think we should close this report with no further action. From unknown Mon Jun 23 07:50:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10451: 24.0.92; Bad cross reference in Info manual Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 15:30:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10451 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" Cc: 10451@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 10451-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10451.132603658032440 (code B ref 10451); Sun, 08 Jan 2012 15:30:02 +0000 Received: (at 10451) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jan 2012 15:29:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50136 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjugl-0008RB-LN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:29:40 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:56441) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjugj-0008Qz-6j for 10451@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:29:38 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q08FTL51001923 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:29:22 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q08FTLds001887 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 15:29:21 GMT Received: from abhmt102.oracle.com (abhmt102.oracle.com [141.146.116.54]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q08FTKuK027973; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 09:29:21 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.13) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 07:29:20 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" References: Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 07:29:11 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczN417hhoKmLcjgTq2nChJQB97q7QAM2/8Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4F09B652.0091,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) > > There are a few cross references such as this in the `Info' > > manual: "see Overview of Texinfo(texinfo)". The Texinfo > > manual is not included with > > Emacs. These links are thus broken. > > We also have links to other manuals provided by other projects:... In the `Info' manual? Where many readers are new to Info? In the section where we introduce readers to the notion, appearance, and behavior of an external link? > There's nothing we can do about this; Sure there is - what I suggested: point instead to a manual that is included with Emacs - the Emacs manual, for instance. The cross references I am referring to are *not* there to point you to info about Texinfo. They are there to show you what a cross ref to another manual (a) looks like, and (b) acts like. For (b), the `Info' text in fact tells you to follow the link and then come back - something you are unlikely to be able to do with many Emacs installations: "Sometimes a cross reference (or a node) can lead to another file (in other words another "manual"), or, on occasion, even a file on a remote machine (although Info files distributed with Emacs or the stand-alone Info avoid using remote links). Such a cross reference looks like this: *Note Overview of Texinfo: (texinfo)Top. (After following this link, type `l' to get back to this node.) Good luck following that link you are told to follow, in an MS Windows Emacs release, at least. > avoiding such links would make the manual less useful. What is "such links"? The point is that these demo links have the wrong demo-link choice. It is fine to say that we sometimes need to cross-ref another manual - that's in fact the whole point of this section: to teach readers about external cross-refs. It is not fine to conclude that this link must point to the Texinfo manual. Please note that the links I am talking about are in node `Help Xref', not in node `Expert Info'. Sorry that wasn't clear. In the latter node the point is indeed to send expert users to the Texinfo manual, and they will indeed need to go there for the info in question. (And few `Info' manual readers will even bother with section `Expert Info'.) My point is about the text where we introduce users to external links. Show them a workable link, if possible. Have them follow a workable link, if possible. The `Expert Info' section is not something that a reader new to Info (or even most readers) needs to worry about. Readers of that section are in a different category, with different needs from the average reader of the `Info' manual. > A reader does not _have_ to follow every hyperlink she sees, only > those she is really interested in. A reader who really is interested > in the details of how Info files are generated, will need to install > the Texinfo package which brings the manual with it. You're missing the point. The reader is _directed_, _invited_ to follow these this-is-what-an-external-link-is-like links (in `Help Xref'), for tutorial purposes. Not for the reason of getting any info about Texinfo, but just to see what an external like is like. `Help Xref' is a demo/tutorial section. > > While it is not absolutely necessary that the links actually work, > > it would be far better if the manual used only links that work. > > In this case, a different manual could be used - one that is > > included with Emacs. > > Are you suggesting to have some version of Texinfo manual as part of > the Emacs package? Certainly not. I am suggesting what I said: let's try to cross-ref to a different manual, in particular one that is included with Emacs. The Emacs manual, for instance. > That sounds like a strange proposal: it would lead > to massive duplication of effort or to excessive interdependencies > between largely independent projects. Cf. the (still on-going) > discussion about "GnuTLS and W32". At least you and I agree about something. ;-) > What could be useful is to enhance info.el to give some indication > that a given hyperlink points to a manual that is not available. If that is easy to do, it sounds like a good suggestion to me. It is unrelated to this bug report, but I encourage you to file a separate enhancement request for it. > If this is what your report is about, Clearly not. > or if it could be satisfied by such a change, Nope. This report is about changing those couple of links in the Info manual that are trying to teach readers about external links. Point them not to the Texinfo manual but to, for example, the Emacs manual. > then I agree; otherwise I think we should close this report > with no further action. You wouldn't surprise me there. GC Lars will no doubt sweep it up in his nightly rounds... From unknown Mon Jun 23 07:50:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10451: 24.0.92; Bad cross reference in Info manual Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:13:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10451 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 10451@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 10451-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10451.132604637417320 (code B ref 10451); Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:13:02 +0000 Received: (at 10451) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jan 2012 18:12:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50289 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RjxEk-0004VI-I4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 13:12:54 -0500 Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:47386) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RjxEi-0004V5-8d for 10451@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 13:12:53 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXH00600RVYD800@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 10451@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:12:36 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.206.81]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXH0045ERWZ7QT0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:12:36 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 20:12:36 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <831uraf4h7.fsf@gnu.org> References: X-Spam-Score: -1.2 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.2 (-) > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: <10451@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 07:29:11 -0800 > > My point is about the text where we introduce users to external links. Show > them a workable link, if possible. Have them follow a workable link, if > possible. We try to do that, but it's not always possible. > I am suggesting what I said: let's try to cross-ref to a different > manual, in particular one that is included with Emacs. The Emacs > manual, for instance. AFAIK, Texinfo cross-references are not explained in the Emacs manual. The real cross-reference to Texinfo, a few sentences below, needs to go there. Pointing it to another manual would do a disservice to the reader. From unknown Mon Jun 23 07:50:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10451: 24.0.92; Bad cross reference in Info manual Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:58:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10451 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" Cc: 10451@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 10451-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10451.132604904321188 (code B ref 10451); Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:58:02 +0000 Received: (at 10451) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jan 2012 18:57:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50294 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjxvn-0005Vh-32 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 13:57:23 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:41957) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjxvk-0005VU-J9 for 10451@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 13:57:21 -0500 Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q08Iv4AM008095 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 18:57:05 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q08Iv3ht019344 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 18:57:04 GMT Received: from abhmt103.oracle.com (abhmt103.oracle.com [141.146.116.55]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q08Iv3Ee012835; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 12:57:03 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.13) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:57:02 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" References: <831uraf4h7.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 10:56:54 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <831uraf4h7.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AczOMRut9io+5wy7TxmmBp+Zge2gIQABIAFA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.4F09E701.0039,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) > > I am suggesting what I said: let's try to cross-ref to a different > > manual, in particular one that is included with Emacs. The Emacs > > manual, for instance. > > AFAIK, Texinfo cross-references are not explained in the Emacs > manual. The real cross-reference to Texinfo, a few sentences below, > needs to go there. Pointing it to another manual would do a > disservice to the reader. That is completely wrong. That "real cross-reference to Texinfo, a few sentences below" does **not at all** need to be a reference to Texinfo. It is simply an example of a cross ref to another manual - nothing more. The purpose of that cross ref in this node, like the overall purpose of the node, is to introduce cross references and demo following them. The user is not expected here to follow a link to another manual to learn about that manual's subject matter, but simply to go there and come back, to see what following a cross ref link is like. This is that "real cross-reference to Texinfo", which you mention: "However, Emacs normally hides some other text in cross-references. If you put your mouse over the cross reference, then the information appearing in a separate box (tool tip) or in the echo area will show the full cross-reference including the file name and the node name of the cross reference. If you have a mouse, just leave it over the cross reference *Note Overview of Texinfo: (texinfo)Top, and watch what happens." There is nothing special about referring to the Texinfo manual here. Both this cross ref and the one in the paragraph before it (see below) could just as well be changed to a cross ref to another manual - a manual that is more likely to be present in Emacs. The Emacs manual is an obvious choice. Of course, the text needs to be modified to replace "the name `texinfo'" by "the name `emacs'", in addition to replacing the cross ref by a cross ref to the Emacs manual: "Sometimes a cross reference (or a node) can lead to another file (in other words another "manual"), or, on occasion, even a file on a remote machine (although Info files distributed with Emacs or the stand-alone Info avoid using remote links). Such a cross reference looks like this: *Note The Emacs Editor: (emacs)Top. (After following this link, type `l' to get back to this node.) Here the name `emacs' between parentheses refers to the file name. This file name appears in cross references and node names if it differs from the current file, so you can always know that you are going to be switching to another manual and which one." Is this really so hard for you to see? From unknown Mon Jun 23 07:50:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10451: 24.0.92; Bad cross reference in Info manual Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 19:08:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10451 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 10451@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 10451-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10451.132604963222081 (code B ref 10451); Sun, 08 Jan 2012 19:08:01 +0000 Received: (at 10451) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jan 2012 19:07:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50300 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjy5I-0005k5-6P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:07:12 -0500 Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:52639) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjy5F-0005jt-VL for 10451@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:07:11 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LXH00B00UBYCY00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for 10451@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 21:06:02 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.206.81]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LXH00M2WUE1AAT3@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 21:06:02 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 21:06:02 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il Message-id: <83zkdydnfp.fsf@gnu.org> References: <831uraf4h7.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.2 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.2 (-) > From: "Drew Adams" > Cc: <10451@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 10:56:54 -0800 > > This is that "real cross-reference to Texinfo", which you mention: > > "However, Emacs normally hides some other text in cross-references. > If you put your mouse over the cross reference, then the information > appearing in a separate box (tool tip) or in the echo area will show > the full cross-reference including the file name and the node name of > the cross reference. If you have a mouse, just leave it over the cross > reference *Note Overview of Texinfo: (texinfo)Top, and watch what > happens." This is not the one I had in mind. If you are talking about this one, then there's another problem: this manual also comes with the Texinfo package. If that reference is changed to point to the Emacs manual, it will be broken for someone who installs the Texinfo manual and doesn't have the Emacs manual installed. From unknown Mon Jun 23 07:50:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10451: 24.0.92; Bad cross reference in Info manual Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 19:21:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10451 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" Cc: 10451@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 10451-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10451.132605041723347 (code B ref 10451); Sun, 08 Jan 2012 19:21:01 +0000 Received: (at 10451) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jan 2012 19:20:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50323 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RjyHx-00064V-0M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:20:17 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:39628) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1RjyHq-00063v-SH for 10451@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:20:15 -0500 Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q08JJsqX022752 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 19:19:55 GMT Received: from acsmt358.oracle.com (acsmt358.oracle.com [141.146.40.158]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q08JJrpE002790 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 19:19:53 GMT Received: from abhmt118.oracle.com (abhmt118.oracle.com [141.146.116.70]) by acsmt358.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q08JJqPu020721; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 13:19:52 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.13) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 11:19:52 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" References: <831uraf4h7.fsf@gnu.org> <83zkdydnfp.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:19:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83zkdydnfp.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: AczOOLIxrAR3ybPwTKuY3tfaR9MerAAABiGA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A020206.4F09EC5B.006A,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) > This is not the one I had in mind. It's the one I pretty clearly cited: >> Please note that the links I am talking about are in node >> `Help Xref', not in node `Expert Info'. And in the same mail I quoted the same text from node `Help Xref' (twice now). > If you are talking about this one, Yes, I am talking about node `Help Xref'. > then there's another problem: this manual also comes with the Texinfo > package. If that reference is changed to point to the Emacs manual, > it will be broken for someone who installs the Texinfo manual and > doesn't have the Emacs manual installed. I addressed that in the original bug report: >> I realize that the Info manual is not only for Emacs. Still, many >> readers will read it in Emacs, and this is borne out by some of the >> manual text that says things like "If you are reading this in Emacs...". >> >> It is likely that at least as many readers of the Info manual will have >> the Emacs manual (and perhaps some other manuals that are provided with >> Emacs) as will have the Texinfo manual installed. And most Info users >> will never be creating Info files and thus using Texinfo. And no, it is not true that "this [Info] manual also comes with the Texinfo package". That might be true sometimes, but it is not true in general. That's the point. If the `Info' manual always came with the `Texinfo' manual then I would not have filed this bug report - the links would just work. Please read what I wrote. For an Emacs distribution (this is an _Emacs_ bug report), it is not always the case that Emacs is distributed with Texinfo (and rightly so, IMHO). If you can find a way to make the text be such that it works for Info with Texinfo (and perhaps without Emacs) as well as working for Info with Emacs but without Texinfo, fine. Barring that, let's please fix this for Emacs users - people who will read Info within Emacs, and who will not necessarily also have the Texinfo manual installed. From unknown Mon Jun 23 07:50:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10451: 24.0.92; Bad cross reference in Info manual Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:35:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10451 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 10451@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 10451-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10451.132606209611356 (code B ref 10451); Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:35:02 +0000 Received: (at 10451) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jan 2012 22:34:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50361 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1KK-0002x4-6q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:34:56 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:33733 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1KH-0002wx-Si for 10451@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:34:54 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rk1K5-0004mA-HH; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:34:41 -0500 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:34:41 -0500 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard Stallman In-reply-to: (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sun, 08 Jan 2012 03:56:06 -0500) References: X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) We also have links to other manuals provided by other projects: Make, glibc, and Aspell, for example. Manuals of other GNU projects do the same; e.g. the Texinfo manuals include references to Emacs. There's nothing we can do about this; avoiding such links would make the manual less useful. We might be able to improve what happens when you follow a link to a manual that is not installed. At least on GNU/Linux. Maybe the attempt to follow that link could cause the pertinent package to get installed. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 08 15:32:21 2013 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2013 20:32:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44732 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3ucO-0000ZI-71 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:32:20 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:55415) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3ucM-0000Z9-Di for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:32:18 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1U3ucH-0006jt-6f for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:32:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:32:13 -0500 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 10451 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) tag 10451 wontfix From unknown Mon Jun 23 07:50:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10451: 24.0.92; Bad cross reference in Info manual Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:10:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10451 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: , "'Eli Zaretskii'" Cc: 10451@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 10451-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10451.136035779912420 (code B ref 10451); Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:10:01 +0000 Received: (at 10451) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2013 21:09:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44788 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3vCo-0003EF-Eo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:09:58 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:51593) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1U3vCm-0003E8-GF for 10451@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:09:57 -0500 Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r18L9oMC018521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 8 Feb 2013 21:09:51 GMT Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r18L9nDT021392 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Feb 2013 21:09:49 GMT Received: from abhmt116.oracle.com (abhmt116.oracle.com [141.146.116.68]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id r18L9n9X006231; Fri, 8 Feb 2013 15:09:49 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.230.71) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 13:09:48 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" References: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:09:45 -0800 Message-ID: <8D2AE03A32444871A12AB1FEF6E31673@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczOVbmzEv5dPRfzQWGeTx4e+EWaW036h3aw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) I've reopened this bug. It was closed with no explanation, and the bug is still there. This is about _Emacs_ users who are reading the Info manual, which is an introduction to using Info to read manuals. The text tries to teach you about links to other manuals, and tells you to follow the given cross-book link. That link is broken, because it links to a manual that is not even included with Emacs. We are sending readers down the garden path, confusing them and making them wonder whether they might be doing something wrong. Such instructions (essentially tutorial text) should just plain work. > people who will read Info within Emacs, and who will not > necessarily also have the Texinfo manual installed. From unknown Mon Jun 23 07:50:10 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#10451: 24.0.92; Bad cross reference in Info manual Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2014 05:28:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 10451 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 10451@debbugs.gnu.org, 'Eli Zaretskii' , rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 10451-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B10451.139192363229745 (code B ref 10451); Sun, 09 Feb 2014 05:28:01 +0000 Received: (at 10451) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2014 05:27:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58980 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCMv9-0007jh-HW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 00:27:11 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:47019) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCMv7-0007jZ-Km for 10451@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 00:27:10 -0500 Received: from [204.14.154.233] (helo=building.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WCMut-0006Ao-Ht; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 06:26:55 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <8D2AE03A32444871A12AB1FEF6E31673@us.oracle.com> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2014 21:25:42 -0800 In-Reply-To: <8D2AE03A32444871A12AB1FEF6E31673@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:09:45 -0800") Message-ID: <87ppmwamcp.fsf@building.gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13001 (Ma Gnus v0.10) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1WCMut-0006Ao-Ht X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1392528415.98103@daBTeD2FC3ZVcbSiaFAA3Q X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) "Drew Adams" writes: > I've reopened this bug. It was closed with no explanation, and the bug is still > there. > > This is about _Emacs_ users who are reading the Info manual, which is an > introduction to using Info to read manuals. > > The text tries to teach you about links to other manuals, and tells you to > follow the given cross-book link. That link is broken, because it links to a > manual that is not even included with Emacs. We are sending readers down the > garden path, confusing them and making them wonder whether they might be doing > something wrong. > > Such instructions (essentially tutorial text) should just plain work. When you hit that link "Info file texinfo does not exist", which I think is a clear enough signal to the user that they might consider installing the relevant info file. Closing. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 09 00:27:21 2014 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2014 05:27:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58983 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCMvI-0007k7-U6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 00:27:21 -0500 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:47025) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WCMvG-0007jx-Nd for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 00:27:19 -0500 Received: from [204.14.154.233] (helo=building.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WCMv3-0006B5-1v for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 09 Feb 2014 06:27:05 +0100 Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2014 21:25:54 -0800 Message-Id: <87ob2gamcd.fsf@building.gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #10451 X-MailScanner-ID: 1WCMv3-0006B5-1v X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1392528425.6044@U89Gv5RZnib5CDjH+v/Hjw X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) tags 10451 wontfix close 10451