From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 16 02:37:19 2011 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Dec 2011 07:37:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RbSM2-0000Az-Jc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 02:37:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RbSM0-0000Ar-B1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 02:37:17 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RbSKT-0007KE-Ax for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 02:35:42 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:43611) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RbSKT-0007KA-9U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 02:35:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:36972) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RbSKS-0008DN-2A for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 02:35:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RbSKQ-0007K0-Or for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 02:35:40 -0500 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:53976) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RbSKQ-0007Jb-Jh for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 02:35:38 -0500 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id pBG7ZYuD013720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 07:35:35 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id pBG7ZY9L025966 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 07:35:34 GMT Received: from abhmt106.oracle.com (abhmt106.oracle.com [141.146.116.58]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id pBG7ZXx0017431 for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2011 01:35:34 -0600 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.43.212) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 15 Dec 2011 23:35:33 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 24.0.92; regression: *Help* ruined for toggling read-only Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 23:35:31 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acy7xUowewYWgm6wTIa3tvzTSOSJag== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4EEAF4C7.005B,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.2 (------) In all Emacs releases prior to Emacs 24 (and even in 24 up until the middle of 2011), you could toggle buffer `*Help*' and edit text there relatively normally. Only a very few of the ordinary keyboard keys, such as `RET', had any special meaning. In particular, typically self-inserting keys inserted, and deleting keys deleted. Turning off read-only in *Help* has long been useful for composing and testing *Help* displays (e.g. doc strings). I, and I know others as well, have used this feature for decades. This regression removes it. Now, the typically self-inserting keys do nothing - no message, nada. `C-h k' for a typical key such as `f' says it is undefined. Why? What good is that? Isn't it enough that *Help* is by default read-only? Why fiddle with the key bindings like that? And `DEL' (Backspace) gives the ridiculous error message `Beginning of buffer' (huh?), no matter where point is when you hit it. Yet `C-d', `M-d', etc. still delete text normally. And `M-q' still works (thank goodness). And `q' quits, and `z' kills the buffer , even when the buffer has been toggled to writable! This is crazy. The help-mode keys should have no such effects when the buffer is made writable. Try Emacs 23, to see the difference - when read-only, `q' quits; when writable, it self-inserts - useful. What is the point in a user making the buffer writable now? What can you do with it writable that you could not do with it read-only? In effect, we've lost a useful writable help mode, since it is now nearly the same as read-only *Help* (only a few keys such as `C-d' are exceptionally still usable to edit). Now, to be able to edit *Help* you need to change its mode, instead of just hitting `C-x C-q'. And if you are iteratively fine-tuning doc for *Help*, then each time you refresh it from developing code, you need to change the mode again before you can edit it. Please revert this regression. It is inconsistent (e.g. `DEL' vs `C-d'), makes Emacs less useful, and serves no constructive purpose (AFAICT - what can you do with a writable *Help* now?). It is an incompatible change affecting users, yet it is not even mentioned in the NEWS. AFAIK, it was not proposed for discussion on emacs-devel either. *Help* is not just a passive output message - it is a useful Emacs buffer. And part of that use is editing its content. This is Emacs. Let's not put obstacles in the way of users trying to interact with the most flexible, self-documenting, customizable editor. If intentional, this change is misguided. In GNU Emacs 24.0.92.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2011-12-06 on MARVIN Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.6) --no-opt --cflags -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libXpm-3.5.8/src -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/libpng-dev_1.4.3-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/zlib-dev_1.2.5-2/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/giflib-4.1.4-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/jpeg-6b-4/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/tiff-3.8.2-1/include -ID:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-2.10.1/include --ldflags -LD:/devel/emacs/libs/gnutls-2.10.1/lib' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 25 23:52:25 2012 Received: (at 10308) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2012 03:52:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53336 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SNFkn-0005JM-KK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 23:52:25 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:33832 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SNFkm-0005JG-9f for 10308@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 23:52:25 -0400 Received: from bb116-14-12-6.singnet.com.sg ([116.14.12.6]:48234 helo=ulysses) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SNFjp-0001SN-Sg; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 23:51:26 -0400 From: Chong Yidong To: "Drew Adams" Subject: Re: bug#10308: 24.0.92; regression: *Help* ruined for toggling read-only References: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 11:51:19 +0800 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Thu, 15 Dec 2011 23:35:31 -0800") Message-ID: <87aa1znoaw.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.95 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10308 Cc: 10308@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) "Drew Adams" writes: > In all Emacs releases prior to Emacs 24 (and even in 24 up until the > middle of 2011), you could toggle buffer `*Help*' and edit text there > relatively normally. Only a very few of the ordinary keyboard keys, > such as `RET', had any special meaning. In particular, typically > self-inserting keys inserted, and deleting keys deleted. If you want to edit the buffer, switch to a major mode suitable for editing buffers. Closing as wontfix. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 25 23:52:48 2012 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2012 03:52:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53339 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SNFl9-0005Jz-Ty for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 23:52:48 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:33837 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SNFl8-0005Jt-Rs for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 23:52:47 -0400 Received: from bb116-14-12-6.singnet.com.sg ([116.14.12.6]:48235 helo=ulysses) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SNFkD-0001Sk-Ju for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Apr 2012 23:51:50 -0400 From: Chong Yidong To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: close 10308 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 11:51:43 +0800 Message-ID: <87bomfxi9c.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) tags 10308 + wontfix notabug close 10308 thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 26 09:52:25 2012 Received: (at 10308) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Apr 2012 13:52:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53917 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SNP7P-0007oX-AC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Apr 2012 09:52:24 -0400 Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com ([148.87.113.117]:49464) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SNP7N-0007oK-1B for 10308@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Apr 2012 09:52:22 -0400 Received: from acsinet22.oracle.com (acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id q3QDpDaq017098 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 26 Apr 2012 13:51:16 GMT Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q3QDpCt1024085 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Apr 2012 13:51:13 GMT Received: from abhmt117.oracle.com (abhmt117.oracle.com [141.146.116.69]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q3QDpC73008088; Thu, 26 Apr 2012 08:51:12 -0500 Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.178.21) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 26 Apr 2012 06:51:12 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Chong Yidong'" References: <87aa1znoaw.fsf@gnu.org> Subject: RE: bug#10308: 24.0.92; regression: *Help* ruined for toggling read-only Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2012 06:51:07 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87aa1znoaw.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: Ac0jX92U0r3Pt8sQTVyJFhRnyK6E8AAUbbUA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet22.oracle.com [141.146.126.238] X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10308 Cc: 10308@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) > If you want to edit the buffer, switch to a major mode suitable for > editing buffers. Closing as wontfix. There is no mode so suitable for editing *Help* as its own mode. Changing the mode is not a reasonable workaround, as I reported: >> Now, to be able to edit *Help* you need to change its mode, >> instead of just hitting `C-x C-q'. And if you are >> iteratively fine-tuning doc for *Help*, then each time you >> refresh it from developing code, you need to change the mode >> again before you can edit it. I get the impression that you have never used the capability of making *Help* writable to develop a *Help* screen interactively & iteratively. Otherwise, this should be a no-brainer. But even if you do not use this feature personally, surely you can understand that others might. And surely you can understand that what you have replaced it with is useless to _everyone_. Can you honestly make any argument in favor of the new behavior when writable? Is there any use case for it? It is not even consistent (e.g. DEL vs C-d). It _appears_ that you did not read the bug report, or did not read it well. Please (re-)read it. When toggled to writable, you keep key bindings that make no sense in that context. You do not restore the normal keys, which do make sense. There is now no point in making the buffer writable. You have taken away that functionality for no reason - nothing useful or usable replaces it when the buffer is writable. And it is an incompatible change, but it is not even mentioned in NEWS. How can you in good conscience think there is no bug here? From unknown Thu Aug 14 21:55:37 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 11:24:02 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator